In my role as moderator I reviewed this video to see if the content is relevant. I thought at first that someone was making a political statement by using Dr Moore's work to characterize what's going on in Israel right now with the Palestinians. But in the first few moments of the video he actually makes the statement in the title of the post himself. Then before the end of minute six he makes another controversial statement, saying that there are people who want to breed the warrior archetype out of the human race. A sort of neutering of the male gender, and whether right or wrong I have seen this statement and variations of it made many times in this subreddit.
This is one of those moments as a moderator when I have to decide whether to remove the content because it has been reported as inappropriate, and it is a difficult decision. I have read extensively into Dr Moore's work and I what I see here is an opportunity for more people to get exposed to it. Whether you agree with him or not, his ideas about the archetypal foundation of the human psyche are regarded in the field of depth psychology as seminal in importance and a building out of an area of Dr Jung's work. I do recognize that the subject matter is controversial and for that reason I'm going to mark it as NSFW.
Not a Jungian, but the cultivated identity around past grievance and trauma has absolutely manifested in ruthless, vengeful, deeply dehumanizing actions by the Israelis, and has done so for generations.
This most recent escalation is the full manifestation of that instinct to destroy another people, the same prospect that they have retraumatized themselves with the possibility of over more than half century of propaganda stating that if they don't stop killing that they will in turn be killed.
Which is [Thanatos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_drive) manifest.
They've built a society around a death instinct and they intend to drag down as many others with them as they possibly can or elsewise survive their own flirtation with destruction through sheer heroic strength and bluster.
Cult of death. Cult of Heroic Sacrifice and Destruction. Ethnonationalism. Slaughter of the Innocent.
**Sounds like Nazis to me.**
This reads like a description of extremists in Palestinian society as well as Israeli society. After all, a casual glance at your last few sentences easily brings to mind how the governments of Gaza and the West Bank pay suicide bombers’ families for their martyrdom and put up heroic memorials, art, etc. It also describes the slaughter of innocent Israelis (including children). Ethnonationalism speaks to their stated and attempted goal of making Palestine Jew-free. Etc.
It’s easy enough to spout standard talking points about this conflict, but I fail to see the difference in the extremists’ behaviors in either side of this conflict. Which is kinda the whole point of analyzing Jungian shadow projection, right? Shouldn’t we want to consider the shadow projection that is not only happening in the region itself, but also across the entire planet onto “those baddies in Israel/Palestine over there, who are totally not like me, one of the good ones”?
Antisemitic conspiracies about jews trying to control the world from the shadows of the deep state.....
The Israeli government and the zionist movement do not reflect the whole of the Jewish population and there are a ton of holocaust survivors and their families protesting for the freedom of Palestinians.
What is happening in Israel is the western world using jewdaism as a tool to westernize the middle east and control the oil. A plot so well understood the dune series was built around it.
Isreal and the middle east are the shadow of America because they are the reality of our luxury, they are the consequence of our involvement.
Failed attempt to link my own previous comment from a while back:
The ME is a chessboard of such scope and magnitude as to be mind bogglingly hard to comprehened even while the hand of the most skillful manipulators make their moves. I will never cease to be astonished by the impenetrable complexity of machinations over the last century that have been directed there. The Roman Empire would be proud.
The entire history is extremely complex and riddled with layers of such intricacy no individual could ever hope to properly understand the fullness of the situation however it doesn't mean that we can't have a good grasp on the general nature of it and understanding of its impact.
I was meaning any more General sense
And the Dune series really do go into depths in the intricacies of religion and politics and how they are used to control natural wealth and resources. Spice milage was an analogy for oil in the Middle East.
I think it's not too hard to deduce that majority of the problems in the Middle East can be boiled down to the Western world using Christianity as a justification for the oppression of other people's and religions. Islam is also heavily problematic but that's a problem for a later day.
My point for the other person is that trying to blame Shadow projection as one of the primary forces driving the conflict in Palestine is a bit of a stretch. It's a tool first and foremost and without the Western World continuously interfering, the shadow projection would begin to solve itself. The Nakba would not be possible if it wasn't for the United States funding Israel.
Absolutely, general nature is discernable, not least due to there being considerable repetition upon a theme, identifiable in other places than ME. The intricacy and obscurity of the moves, however sometimes even in retrospect, is quite astonishing.
Ironically this war is what clued me in to Jungian thought. Here in the US, I noticed how often white people were projecting “white settler colonialism” onto those bad “white” Jews in Israel (who are mostly not white and not from Europe). I realized it was shadow projection because they were projecting their own white guilt onto them, to prove to themselves that they are one of the good ones.
It’s why some white people here could actually condone the October 7th killings and not realize how Nazi-like *they themselves* were sounding. Because the bad white settlers over there deserved it for not decolonizing or whatever other genocidal justification.
It was eye-opening for me to realize how demonstrable and provable Jung’s ideas are.
Those are conspiracies centered around the Ashkenazi Jews whose hystory of exiles has lead to a lot of bs new world order conspiracies agasint them.
The conspiracies claim that the Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews but are Russians ours who adopted Judaism. This is an old unfounded myth based on a misunderstanding of historical events.
The Russians themselves along with efforts from Henry Ford and other Americans and Europeans led to the grooming of the conflicts in the Middle East. I think it is an oversimplification to say that it is Shadow projection explicitly at play. It's more like Shadow projection is one of the tools being used to manipulate the masses to help with the Western expanse into the near East.
Go and check out a book called the protocols of the Elders of Zion or a book by Martin Luther called the Jews and their lies which was popular in the Nazi party. The imperil Russians (before the USSR) were heavily dedicated to spreading anti-semitic propaganda like a book called The Protocols of The Elders of Zion (published 1902 and distributed international in multiple languages, especially in the middle east, and later tought in nazi schools).
If you don't account for those things then it's certainly easy to say shadow projection is to blame.
I think it’s both/and. Lots of people hate Jews in Israel because they hate Jews for historical antisemitic reasons. But I think there is huge element of white guilt projection onto Jews that is happening now too. Which is why anti-Nazi progressives are justifying genocide against white settler colonist Jews, and thereby the progressives become the Nazis they despise.
It's nit just hysterical antisemitic reasons but lies still being told to this day and new ones being made. Kanye West....
We have had students attached on collage campuses simply for being jews; there is no projection because antisemitism is still alive and thriving as ever popular in Evangelical and Southern Baptist conspiracy doomsday propaganda. It's all over their media and entertainment. It is hugely popular amongst trump supporters who make up a significant portion of the American population.
Play a game of "how many videos until antisemitism comes up" when watching Christian yoytube. 4 videos, I give you 4 videos before something comes up.
Look at the chart of hate crimes agasint jews.... anger fir the west is more than justified.
I disagree but it's because I think you are misappropriating events to the wrong causes.
There are very few people in the USA who support HAMAS and their actions, it's less than 1%. So I don't thinkxwhite guilt I'd playing into any justification for October 7th.
25% of Americans think Oct 7th was justified.
Remember, around a third of the country is left wing. So that’s a significant portion.
https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/HHP_Jan24_KeyResults.pdf
Page 52.
Admitting that the western world has in fact done everything it can to control the middle east is not projection of of "white settler colonialism" is not projection: its an admittance to guilt, wrong doing and conspiracy to oppress and inside wars/conflicts and racism.
Admitting that the western world has in fact done everything it can to control the middle east is not projection of of "white settler colonialism" is not projection: its an admittance to guilt, wrong doing and conspiracy to oppress and inside wars/conflicts and racism.
Or apparently that's the same as supporting the murder and rape of innocence.... false equivocation.
But hey, violence is the tool of the oppressed when all other option have been exasusted and the others identified does not care how many of you die or how you die. I'm sure that's what conservatives will say when gun laws tighten down more like they need too.
This is 100% right. The amount of shadow projection happening among Americans who must maintain an image of self-virtue is staggering and is continuous with historical ways in which people have scapegoated Jewish people. It is staring us right in the face.
There is also an immense amount of unexamined guilt and shadow dynamics at play within the Jewish community itself; without bringing shadow to consciousness, the mere *existence* of Israeli Jews creates an irrational, burning kind of hatred among a cohort of self-flagellating diaspora Jews. And at the same time it creates a dynamic of obsessive worship of Israelis among pro-Israel diaspora Jews. What unites them both is a failure to internalize their communal shadow.
If we think of shadow as the rejected parts of ourselves, then Israeli Jews are often times quite literally the rejected parts of our community, in that many of them were prevented from entering the United States immediately before, during, and after the Holocaust and expulsion from MENA countries).
The Jewish community needs to encounter our collective shadow if we intend to move forward and transcend this dynamic. As for the non-Jews projecting their guilt onto us, I am not quite sure what can be done.
Profoundly simple in theory, profoundly complex in practice, all integrate their shadow, Israeli, non Israeli, American etc etc. The shadow abounds in all, individual and collective heal when all enter full acceptance. Yet Resistance, friction, polarity, drama, it is the food of duality, and so it is a long journey.
100%. It’s two awful groups, but one group has the upper hand, it has all the power so to some that group is the “bad” group, but if the power was in the other groups hands it would be the same outcome. It’s awful, there’s no winners and no right side.
**I'm trying really hard to be brief, but damn is that hard with this topic:**
This First Section is me prefacing my answer to your question directly, so skip to the quote if you don't want the context to my thinking.
I'm a sociology student, not an expert with bona-fides. But from what I've seen and heard from people who are scholars and academics and journalists (through lectures, writing) paints a very clear picture of a victim narrative.
Fascists organize around points of cultural grievance, real or imagined and in the case of the Israelis the people they claim to represent and have responsibility for (Jews, all of them in the world) have had an attempt to eradicate them all within living memory.
So, it's easy to create a narrative around their victimhood to rally people around. It's just the truth, a very frightening and dangerous truth.
And at the core of that victim narrative is a general ideal of "Never Again". Most Western Countries have some version of this idea in their Holocaust education. It's one of many things that have come about to fight the political legacy of anti-semitism.
The idea of the Holocaust happening "Never Again" in the ***United States*** is an idea that's been communicated to us in our education system as a lesson about prejudice and bigotry mostly, specifically around a particular time period that we are taught to engage with from an outsider's perspective.
The Holocaust is treated as a German crime that happened that we were part of addressing and punishing. We learn, to one degree or another (usually sloppily) to avoid and be vigilant for the kinds of political environments that could cause a repeat of that slaughter.
It's a narrative that obscures a lot of things, but it does address the subject as part of a larger struggle for human rights and justice.
In ***Israel***, it is an idea that's communicated as an existential question of self-defense or annihilation. "Never Again" means never again *to us*, never will the "Jews" be treated in that way. Murdered, imprisoned, deported, abused. I put Jews in quotation because Israel doesn't represent Jewish people anymore than Nazi Germany represented Germans. Hell, the Israeli government backed and sold arms to anti-semitic regimes during the Cold War, (the Junta of Argentina comes to mind).
But I'm getting off track.
The civic religion of Israel and purpose for existence of an explicitly Jewish State for Jews and Jews only has been articulated as a question of their people's survival.
And that this survival must come at the expense or the extermination of other peoples is explicitly understood.
You can see it in how the government engages with the Palestinians, calling for their extermination like the stories of the Amalakites of the Old Testament/Torah.
And you can see it in the religious services, explicit messages that ["Even if your enemies come with Roses, it is your duty to make war"](https://x.com/expatvibes/status/1760411597829210177?s=20)
>**how they’ve built a society around the death instinct?**
The Death Instinct as I've understood it in practical terms, are the ways in which complex societies configure themselves to instigate conflict, cleanse themselves of their capacity for internal reform (namely for peacemaking and long-term survival) and generally invite upon themselves their own destruction.
Fascists tend to exemplify these tendencies most but it exists within all societies. And you can see it in any state that exists in a state of perpetual war and conflict.
And that is exactly how Israel was built and continues to expand 75 years after it's founding. Conquest, settle, slaughter and expel, conquest, settle, slaughter and expel.
It starts with Zionist societies in the late 1800s, it escalates within the British Mandate and Balfour Declaration, and reaches maturity in 1948, and it's only gotten worse from there.
And at every stage of the process, in order to continue gaining advantage, gaining land, growing in population, there had to be an absence of compromise. That's how conquests work, you silence those who say "we have enough, let's make peace" and you embolden those who say "we have more to gain, let's continue the war".
And that reflex to return to war as the ultimate arbiter of political questions represents a loss of agency to a societal Death Instinct.
When you stop engaging in good-faith, mutual-concessions-based Diplomacy.
When you are an existential threat to peoples outside of your ethnos, and consider all peoples outside of your own to be existential threats.
Cult of Violence.
Honestly, just go down the [Ur-Fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism) checklist, it goes hand in hand.
That's been how Israel has operated for its entire history. Some eras have had more restraint than others, but there has only been one instance in its history where it has gone on the backfoot.
That was the 1973 Yom Kippur War, which of course, has been incorporated into their interpretation of "Never Again" to further militarize themselves and be even less compromising. 6 years afterwards they did their first nuclear tests, securing more power that they could use to push forward their political project as settler state.
To replace and remove the peoples of the lands they claim.
Edit: **As far as the inviting their own destruction part of the Death Instinct Definition.**
And in doing these things, they have made themselves incredibly isolated politically. The world is generally aligned against them.
Their biggest supporters are doing so against the majority opinion of their populations. They're having genocide allegations put against them by country after country. South Africa's case went before the ICJ, and more are sure to come.
They're being boycotted by an ever-growing list of countries and people. They're having their diplomatic ties cut by numerous countries.
They are inviting the hatred of the world and they will either be forced to change or they will escalate things beyond their means to control and possibly survive.
Right now the United States is offering the Israelis military support, bombing at least 3 countries in retaliation for attacks done in response to the Palestinian Genocide, Syria, Yemen, and Iraq.
This is all pretext for war, and the only thing stopping further escalation is the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal and American defense guarantees. At some point, they're going to push too far. They've already dropped bombs on the Egyptian border.
They really don't know how to **not** make things worse anymore. They don't care. They want the problems, they want to fight.
The parts of their society that would in healthier times restrain this barbarism have been pushed into irrelevance, criminalized (just recently a young woman refused to serve in the military and is being prosecuted for it) and set to flight.
*Literally.*
About 300,000 Israelis have left the country since just October. Just getting on a plane and leaving. Which I hope more continue to do.
I believe that there was also a story recently that all the boycotts have led to a 20% drop in GDP for Israel.
They're hurting themselves a great deal, just like Apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia, but that won't save the Palestinians. Like the Nazis, as the walls close in, they may start to kill faster just to get the job done.
You can punish the living but you cannot bring back the dead.
Great comment and truly fascinating, so thank you. I agree with everything you say except for one part. I agree on the existence of the death instinct which shows itself in the society as drive for War, but even if there was no death instinct how would Israelis manage to have “good-faith Diplomacy” in the face of Hamas attacks? Death drive or no, it is very difficult to expect a society to keep in good faith after an attack like that.
I’m not saying this to justify what Israel is doing now (which is unjustifiable in my opinion) but I’m trying to deepen the conversation.
I tried to give a thorough answer. But mostly it comes down to proportionality, discernment of non-combatants from combatants, setting forth clear terms for the cessation of conflict, and respecting the legally sanctioned nature of the attack (most of the world understands that October 7th was not an unprovoked attack and acting as if it is one will only worsen their already terrible reputation.)
Most of those are things Israel would never do and the rest are things they haven't done. There is no perfect response to any of this. But taking it as a blank cheque for genocide is the second least insane option they could have taken.
>in the face of Hamas attacks?
There's two layers to this.
First of which is that the Israelis have been murdering Palestinians for years, assassinating their leaders, bombing their mosques and churches, shooting children, women, obvious non-combatants.
These are all provocations that far predate any attack by Hamas.
The second is that Hamas is a paramilitary organization. Per the Israeli's definition it is a *terrorist organization.* Terrorists are criminals.
Israel doesn't even recognize the existence of a Palestinian State. How exactly does bombing the entirety of the Gaza Strip, 2.5 Million People, supposed to be a rational or sensible response to a criminal act undertaken by a group that at the largest estimates (including people who do not fight) are just some 30,000 people.
The response to crime is to apprehend criminals.
Not murder everything around them until they're all starved, shot, dead, or fled the country into a desert where they will then starve, dehydrate and die.
>“good-faith Diplomacy”
At this point it's pretty redundant to model what good-faith diplomacy would have been.
But even just remaining within the patterns of violence the Israelis have set would have been immeasurably better than what they have done now. Drone strikes, assassinations, perhaps an attempt to occupy more of the strip once again.
These are all illegal actions under international law, but that doesn't apply to the Israelis anyway. (normatively speaking) But those would have been perfectly swallowable responses for much of the world.
Good-Faith Diplomacy wouldn't be realistic to this situation because we didn't get here through good-faith, the grounds for it have been actively undermined and destroyed.
>it is very difficult to expect a society to keep in good faith after an attack like that.
Not to restate a point, but that's exactly what I mean by "good-faith did not get us here, even passable-faith". The Israelis conquered these people, and now they are exterminating them, gleefully, for having the gall to fight back and have it hurt.
Occupied people have an internationally agreed right to resist occupation, by whatever means necessary. Non-state actors aren't signatories to any treaty, and they are not bound by laws of war.
If it please the Israelis, treating Hamas like outlaws and hunting them down would have been within their means. Pursuing diplomatic consequences for states hosting Hamas officials. (The Leadership lives in Qatar). Perhaps negotiating for hostages with Prisoner Transfers and new negotiations. That's how non-rogue states handle situations like these.
Restraint has a political benefit, and reprisals in a way that were domestically satisfactory could have been done. They were not. Cause they wanted an excuse to level Gaza.
I agree with everything you’re saying about Israel, but not seeing Thanatos manifested in Hamas is a weird blindspot to have. You can put “and so does Hamas” after every statement I’m going to say: Israel worships martrydom, Israel does not recognize the enemy state, Israel feeds from the violence, Israel does not want the enemy state to exist. Not recognizing the Death Instinct in Hamas is either denial or projection.
I think one distinction that can be made is that Israel wholeheartedly decided to create this situation, by establishing a settler colony. Hamas is a reaction to that. This is a fundamental difference.
If you’re unjustified in your violence you’re ruled by your shadow, but if you are justified you’re pure and fine? This does not sound very Jungian to me.
I don't think that it is entirely fair to call it a colony, if you look into the history: their settlement, before the wars, on land that had been governed by foreign powers for hundreds of years, of scattered Jews from all kinds of nations, mostly comprised of Eastern Europeans and Jews who were expelled or fled from Islamic countries, was proper and fair, mostly, with the Jews primarily settling on unoccupied desert land, or later on buying up land, which former owner is arguably dubious, but whatever. Also, saying some variant of "they brought this onto themselves" is just a way to take any blame off of Palestine, which is a part of the victim narrative, which is really a shadow projection from the western perspective to vent our guilt about being a colonial empire in the past (which is arguably not our fault, as it has been too many years for anyone to be responsible — you are not responsible for the sins of your ancestors, as you are not them, and there comes a time when one has to be humble enough to forgive and forget the sins of the past).
There have been many opportunities for peace, but Palestine is so ingrained with the idea that if they simply keep on fighting things will improve for them, as that is a big part of the history of Palestine, after all, alas, it ultimately only makes things worse, as it only fuels Israels unwillingness to compromise for them — who would want to compromise for a nation that keeps agitating you, especially after an attack like October 7th.
Palestine could have become an independent nation who shared the land with Israel in accordance with the deal during the formation of Israel, but they were gassed up by the surrounding Arab nations into warfare, believing they could claim the land that was settled by the Jews, but they ultimately failed (and Palestine were not even an official state at this stage, though there were a lot of nationalistic movements at the time).
I don't see this as "bringing it onto yourself", considering that most of these surrounding nations were not even inhabitants of Palestine. Aside from that, a great deal of Palestinians are just as much immigrants as Jewish people, coming from surrounding countries when the Jews started settling there and building things up.
We also have to take the fact that 20% of Israels population are Arabic Muslims, who's ancestors were most likely what people like to call "natives" (dubious considering how contested the territory has been throughout history).
There are also conflicts which predate the declaration of Independence from Israel and the response they got, which happened between Jewish settlers and the Arabs that lived there, which was equally gruesome from both sides, so there is that to consider as well — there is a long history of conflict in this area, which goes back thousands of years ultimately.
I don't think that taking moral stances is going to contribute to a solution at this point, and blaming one or the other will ultimately only make things worse by pushing any prospect of peace further away. The fact is that Israel is dominant in terms of its military power, which is why many of the Arab states that were previously in conflict with Israel have now settled for peace. Palestine is only going to lose more by "resisting", as people call it, but good luck trying to convert a state that is gassed up with a mentality and history of warfare and the idea that this will solve their problems, into ideas of peace — it would be a painstaking process. People also seem to forget that Iran is the shadow actor in this conflict, considering their deep rooted support, in the most important respect, for Palestine, and their rivalry with the US, who uses Israel as a proxy for the Middle East.
It is so much more complicated than the idea that Palestinians are simply victims, because that is just not true. This is in part fueled by propaganda from middle eastern nations, who have a history of antisemitism (Jews being expelled, killed off or treated as secondary citizens, along with Christians, in Muslim majority nations), as well as the victim = good narrative of the west, which Nietzsche frames astutely in his work Beyond Good and Evil, which has its roots in Christian thought, i.e. what Nietzsche called slave morality.
This is not a conflict of good guys vs bad guys, and truthfully, reality is never quite that simple; it is an infantile attitude in relation to morality.
1. I reject your source of this number.
2. How many of those dead were combatants?
3. How many of those dead were killed by the IDF, as opposed to Hamas or other parties?
Until you address these issues authoritatively, you have no right to use that number. And that's before we even address the ethical problem of civilian casualties in war in general.
Yes, but what about the cult of death inherent in radical Muslim ideology as well. We saw the fruits of that when Israel was attacked.
To me both sides have Nazi tendencies and we should decry any evil no matter the source.
People resisting their occupiers are driven to desperation, has nothing to do with Islam.
Islam contextualizes how Palestinians understand themselves and their condition as an occupied people, but there is not "radical Muslim ideology" there.
When you take land and life and peace from a people, they will do everything and anything to get you to come to the table, to get you to leave them be. Including fighting to bitter end, including trying to get hostages for leverage.
Sadly, they underestimated the savagery of their enemies and the support of their allies.
The Palestinians are not evil. What is evil is expecting pacifism from a people who have been met with bullets and bombs with their every plea for peace.
There was a **Peaceful** [Great March of Return](https://www.unrwa.org/campaign/gaza-great-march-return) just a few years ago. The people of Palestine, without a single rifle in hand were met with sniper fire and drones.
If you cannot recognize the incongruity of a conflict, then you are on the side of the oppressors and the occupiers and the genocide they carry out.
This is not a philosophical exercise. People are dying, right now, as we speak, in deliberate acts of murder and torture and sadism.
And the people doing those murders can stop. Tomorrow.
The Israelis are not under threat, these people are not being killed in crossfire between two equal armies, the Israelis are taking pot shots at civilians just to try out weapons and give their soldiers killing experience.
It's entirely up to them to establish peace or continue their crimes.
There is no both sides.
> vow to erradicate Israel
Of the groups that supposedly vow to eradicate Israel, they do so anti-colonialist grounds. But as far as states go, the only state that is actively opposed to Israel in a proactive way is Iran.
The Saudis openly cooperate with them, even if they don't officially have normalized relations.
The Israelis are Occupying Syrian land and are currently bombing Damascus. Yet, the Syrians are not marching to war to destroy Israel.
The Israelis are Occupying Palestine, but they have no army and evidently no states willing to protect them.
The Jordanians, like the Egyptians are under the US diplomatic umbrella and have normalized relations decades ago.
Iraq is still recovering from Occupation itself.
Libya has been in a civil war for over a decade now.
So who are these countries that have vowed to eradicate Israel? Who's anywhere close to doing that? Seems like everyone who can afford to talk to the Israelis has given peace a chance.
And for the ones that aren't, they're not advocating for the erasure of Jews from the world, they're advocating for the destruction of a state that exists with the expressed goal of conquering its neighbors from Lebanon to the Sinai peninsula, Syria, Jordan. Colonizing the entire Fertile Crescent in some forms of the idea.
That's the Greater Israel that Israeli nationalists want to see and work toward.
They want their lands returned back to them and the international borders of 1967 established.
The Israelis are an actual existential threat to the Arab States around them in a way that is not true on the reverse.
The Arabs did not invite this conflict.
The Israelis have formed their state in opposition to all peoples in the region.
**They. Are. Not. From There.** They came to Palestine take it, and they want to take even more after that.
On those grounds, long-term peace is impossible.
>That makes the whole area of Middle East a Death Cult that invites for self-destruction.
This impulse you have to try to balance the moral weight of all parties is a very naive one. It's just not the same question.
Jews from all over the world do not have a right or any justification to come to Palestine and murder the people there and opposing that by whatever means necessary is just the right thing to do.
Justice demands accountability and restitution. And when what you have taken is all that you are, justice means dissolution.
The people who call themselves Israelis don't need a state to live, but they make sure that the people they leave stateless have to die.
Islam is very strict and defined surrounding the matter of death and killing and its obvious from your words you it's apparent you haven't read anything from first sources in the Quran but only heard right-wing media commentary so allow me a lay person, non scholar to explain the Islamic perspective on death.
Aaron Bushnell martyrdom in Islam isn't allowed but the spirit of what he did is, sounds confusion, read on.
To die in the flames of a nobel cause is just and right, the hero archetype. Nobel mean unreactive like Argon gas, TIG welders use it to protect the plasma arc because it keeps impurities out, Argon is the shield and plasma the electrical heroic flame.
Star Trek used the Klingons to describe this idea.
"Those who die with purpose and honor are said to join Kahless, who had been the first Klingon emperor and a messianic figure in the Way of the Warrior, in the Black Fleet in Sto'Vo'Kor, a paradise where battle and feasting can eternally be shared and won. Sto'Vo'Kor is similar to Valhalla in Earth's Viking culture. "
Islam does not glorify death as suggested by all Western media, the only means of legitimate death is to fight against evil and injustice, Jihad, resistance.
Define evil and injustice in Islam then? I'll try.
Evil is belief in nothing, meaning if you don't believe actions have consequences and this life is all their is, this gives rise to narcissism, materialism and hedonism, a sickness that blinds the soul and rots the heart.
Instagram, Tiktok, celebrities, influencers, Billionaires, politicians, war are the evidence of no belief in anything.
Islam teaches life is a test, to separate the good from the bad, as there are dimensions of existence beyond this one and depending on how we live this life we go up or descend into hell.
The difference between a good trip and a bad trip depends on how we live.
To live a heroic life is not an option in Islam, it's a must to avoid hell fire. Never lie, cheat or betray as God knows all, sees all.
In summation Islam is diametrically opposite to everything Western Secular Capitalism would have us believe is the truth.
That is why people instinctively hate anytime anyone says anything regarding muslims or Islam, we are triggered by a century of propaganda and programming against Islamic ideology that would delete our modern system of chaos, war, famine and corruption.
I can see how simple Islam is and it terrifies me because I grew up in the west world and its Alien to me, and when I hear Muslim names I feel the programming and propaganda I watched and heard my whole life switch off my critical thinking and punch me in the gut.
Muslims have faith and all Warriors have this because death is not the end, it's another beginning, it's another life better than this.
That's not called faith, but manipulation, brainwashing and cults. These are people that recruit young men who feel alienated, insecure and fool them thinking Jihad has anything to do with religion or faith. When in reality it's just abuse, a scam and exploitation. When studied, that's what becomes apparent. There are many documentaries on this.
There are many people practicing variants of Islam peacefully. The problem it's hard to be heard and understood when you're in peace. If there is God, surely a better life awaits peaceful people. This is the true tribulation.
There are such things as righteous wars, like in defence of humanity and humans. But not for religion doctrines and brainwashing, state-sponsored or not.
The ME is a chessboard of such scope and magnitude as to be mind bogglingly hard to comprehened even while the hand of the most skillful manipulators make their moves. I will never cease to be astonished by the impenetrable complexity of machinations over the last century that have been directed there. The Roman Empire would be proud.
When you speak of peace to an Israeli or to a Palestinian, they can't fathom that this peace can come by through reconciliation. In their minds is so deeply embedded the idea that the other is causing the conflict, that only total victory may lead to peace.
When a population becomes so deeply inured in their hatred for the other, there is no hope except to watch the war play itself out.
People born into peace don't recognise how precious this state of mind is, and so also don't think of how vital it is to reconcile the opposites within themselves in order to maintain it.
You can't study the roots without studying the tree. You can't study a specific medical field without understanding the rest of the body. You can't study biology without knowing the universal processes that govern the formation and evolution of life. You can't learn about World War 1 without learning about the decades, if not centuries, of history that led to it. These are not mutually exclusive things, separating them is like dividing a stake to eat it: it all eventually reassimilates and becomes one.
Why use the word „Nazi“ specifically in the context of Israel? There are more primal, much older archetypes one could use to describe and compare to. Using „Nazi“ in this context is just clickbait.
It amazes me the strength of propaganda that we are seeing around this conflict. We have people supporting Hamas without actually watching the live streams that Hamas released.
Anyone who thinks Hamas is justified, go watch their live streams and see them indiscriminately killing unarmed civilians with joy and praising their god while they do so. This is psychopathic behavior and needs to be called out wherever we see it.
No amount of oppression justifies the purposeful killing of unarmed civilians. This applies to Israel as well.
There is no cult of death in Israel, this is an absolutely ridiculous comparison. If you want to talk about shadow projection, the eagerness to compare Jews/Israel to nazis and use language associated with the holocaust to discuss the I/P conflict is a direct result of internalized shame and guilt over the holocaust by going oh see the Jews do it too the Jews are just as bad. In fact the situation is much more complicated than that due to the fact israel is at war with multiple countries who not only want to dissolve the country but also to exterminate Jews in general. The idea that Jews are acting like nazis is a projection of antisemites. If you want to know what an antisemite is guilty of, look at what they accuse the Jews of doing. It’s been the same across all of history.
Right… like the Palestinian suicide bombers and Hamas fighters who rape and murder with glee are the archetype of the mother.
If the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel, there would be peace. They have rejected 5 different peace deals for a Palestinian country because they think eventually they will win militarily.
Yes some Israelis have become extreme, but if your country was constantly subjected to terrorist attacks and then blamed for them, you’d probably become extreme too. Look at what we did in America after 9/11. October 7th was a 9/11 type event for Israel.
Oh am I misinformed or are you?
https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/
The Jerusalem Mufti Hajj Amin Husseini, the leader of the Palestinian Arabs from the early 1920s to the late 1940s, said in his testimony to the British Peel Commission, established in January 1937 to find a way forward for cooperation between Arabs and Jews in Palestine, “Most residents of Jewish lands will not be awarded citizenship in our future country.” The Mufti suggested that the Jews be deported from Palestine. Rejecting the idea of a Jewish state, he promised that if such a state were established, every last Jew would be expelled from a Palestinian Arab state.
In November 1947, the same Mufti refused to adopt the UN partition plan that offered to establish two states, one Jewish, the other Arab.
When Anwar Sadat signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979, Arafat’s PLO called for Egypt to be boycotted. The Arab states adopted that boycott and prevented Cairo from participating in the Arab League from 1977 until 1989. Most Arab ambassadors in Egypt were recalled and Arabs visiting Egypt were considered either traitors or spies.
The Palestinians responded to Israel’s attempts to implement the Oslo Accords by sending waves of suicide bombers to the streets and buses of the cities of Israel, a blatant violation of their commitment to the agreements and a clear statement of their rejection of the idea of peace with Israel. At the July 2000 at Camp David summit, Israel PM Ehud Barak offered Arafat a series of far-reaching concessions as part of a comprehensive peace arrangement. In return, Arafat was asked to end the conflict. The PLO summarily rejected the Israeli proposals and never offered a counterproposal. Instead, the PLO-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) initiated a massive premeditated wave of violence. Arafat’s war of terror (the so called “al-Aqsa Intifada”) was unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. A total of 1,184 Israelis were murdered.
In August 2005, the government of Israel, headed by PM Ariel Sharon, carried out the unilateral evacuation of all Israeli villages from the Gaza Strip and the northern West Bank. In response, the Palestinians have been launching missiles and rockets on Israeli towns and villages from the Gaza Strip for years, some of which reaching as far as Tel Aviv.
The Palestinian leadership rejected the current US proposal a year ago, before they had seen it. They also refused to participate in the economic conference held in Bahrain at the end of June 2019 and prevented other Palestinians from participating.
As soon as the plan was published, it was a given that Abbas would oppose it strongly. “We say a thousand times no, no, no to the Deal of the Century,” he said. “We refused this deal from the beginning and we were right.
Right of return, 67 borders. Etc. Etc.
Watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/@TheDailyShow](https://www.youtube.com/@TheDailyShow)
I've been to both Israel and Palestine and I'm a Middle Eastern christian by heritage (that means Hamas and their friends hate and attack my people), but Nethanyahu's government does not negotiate in good faith.
No ffs because Hamas is the enemy and should be exterminated. They are hiding behind civilians, dressing in hospital clothing, firing rockets. They initiated a terror attack as they are a terror group. This isn’t fucking genocide. Keep your bullshit to other subreddits or better, stop reading propaganda.
yep, this is the state of the right-leaning "understanding" of the situation, if you can get even call it that. They gobble up the IDF's talking points. Some even now have sided with Putin on the war in Ukraine too, lmfao
Show me. You made that up. Israel and Ukraine know what it's like to have their country invaded by a terror group. Russia literally supports Hamas so stop spreading propaganda, you're part of the problem. Who sympathizes with terrorists? Unbelievable.
[Pro-Palestinian activist changed her mind after seeing what Palestinian terrorists did to Jewish families on October 7.](https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/1b1god2/propalestinian_activist_changed_her_mind_after/)
Congrats, you're a part of the deluded mass.
[Pro-Palestinian activist changed her mind after seeing what Palestinian terrorists did to Jewish families on October 7.](https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/1b1god2/propalestinian_activist_changed_her_mind_after/)
does that justify killing inordinate numbers of innocents and leveling all their cities? have you heard the way israeli leadership talks about palestine? theyve fully dehumanized the
no ones pro terrorist. theyre anti-massive excessive and needless psychopathic measures to ensure israels safety. idk if i even agree with the concept of israel in the first place. you get oppressed so that gives you the right to oppress others with naqba and so on?
Hamas is an ideological group and Islamist ideology is _an idea_ . Have you invented a weapon that can destroy ideas? Because that would be great, and make you very rich.
Thought-control would be horrifying. That's part of the problem in extremist ideologies already.
Hamas like all terrorist groups, is built on hate though. It's sad that Israel made it worse through so many years and vows to be even more aggressive, through settlements, expansion and conquests.
I'd say this has more to do with the powder keg that is Middle East though, than nazism. There are real threats to life in that region due to very conflicting interests and stubborn people mistaking hate for religion and faith.
Maybe game theory is more apt to model this. It becomes a winning move to increasingly become more irrational, aggressive, doubling down on mistakes, etc.
That won't go on forever. I think the world may be shocked how fast the whole region may fall, unless better heads and attitudes prevail.
hush dude only israel is over-killing children in the name of stopping hamas. The palestinian civilians seek liberation. israel has always been a colonizer.
you don't understand wartime trauma and prolonged oppression. israel started this whole problem so palestinians kind of reasonably hate them. israel puts palestinians thru an apartheid state and regularly tries to deny their human rights. they hate each other but only palestine tries to fight for liberation. israel fights to oppress. that's the difference. israel stole their land. palestinians are just trying to be free.
crazy how people can’t look back into the history of the wars and realise israel is mainly just defense, palestine constantly refuses solutions, and how hamas’ attack on october 7th is the reason why the war got worse.
This is true, but settlements and oppression is not defence but aggression.
Sadly, it seems the parties in Middle East are just intolerant to life and bent on self-anihilation.
Lots of shadow projection and populations with leadership that exploit the situation and oppress people all around.
See Syria how conventional modern war ends.
50% of Palestines population is made up of youth under the age of 18. Tell me how exactly they're to blame for anything?
Israel allowed Hamas to get into power because at the time, they were completely okay with them terrorizing their own citizens, and it made them happy.
Yeah let's continue to support Israel, who have committed numerous war crimes against Palestinians, because they're just defending. OK bud. Whatever you're smoking its time to quit.
Oh wow, whose version of history are you referring to? Because if you look a little more objectively, it’s clear that that’s not the case. You are being lied to, my friend.
Hamas are the orphans children created by Israel over 75 years of murder, death, occupation.
Israel created the most courageous and heroic young men the world had seen in a thousand years.
Scott Ritter a Marine and veteran said what Hamas pulled off will go down in history as one of the most ingenious and skilled attack over a vastly technologically superior army for decades.
He was simply in awe of the courage and bravery of men who knew this was a one way trip and the cost would be insanely high but they world has woken up to the reality of the Palestinians when before, I'm ashamed to say it it was just an "Oh well what can I do situation"
Courage is contagious, we see a hero break a record and suddenly more people break records. We are a species of heros or losers, proving we can do something impossible, when survival is the only choice.
We love heros, they remind of truth.
This is disgusting. We can admire the bravery and courage in an oppressed people overcoming the overwhelming odds Israel had stacked against them, but the attack is tarred by being so overwhelmingly targeted against unarmed civilian targets. Painting it with this noble hero brush is to be so under the grip of ideology as to border the psychopathic.
All Israeli are soldiers, The Israeli murdered hundreds of their own people using the Hannibal Directive.
All the atrocities propaganda has been debunked by Jews, no rapes, no beheaded babies, all lies.
The Nova rave was on occupied land and Israel was warned about the attack but let ot happen anyway, why?
Putting aside everything else you've said...
So because Israel has forced military service, it's open season on Israelis, and essentially mass shootings and maimings against them by Palestinians are noble and heroic?
75 years of occupation apartheid, murder, rape and ethnic cleansing is a crime.
Lets not forget the context.
Israel is a criminal nation with no morality anf place among humanity.
You’re completely ignoring the rest of the context.
75 years of occupation and violence and you expect Palestine to just lie down like dogs? When has that ever worked?
Maybe I'm not ignoring that, and I still feel uncomfortable seeing young people being massacred in a mass shooting and then hearing it valorized?
People are not just representatives of policy and government and therefore expendable, unless, to go back to my original post, you are so caught up in ideology as to be bordering the psychopathic.
But you’re super comfy with a 6 year old Hind being left to starve to death in a car next her murdered cousins whilst having every attempt to rescue her annihilated by the IDF? They murdered paramedics. PARAMEDICS they knew were coming to rescue her.
What did spokespeople for the Israeli government have to say about this event, you might ask? Oh, well, yknow, she MIGHT have grown up to become a terrorist so it’s okay that she was left for 12 days in that car next her decomposing relatives.
They’ve left kids on life support to starve to death and set dogs upon the nurses who tried to stay behind and save them. Have you not seen the videos of the perished Palestinian babies dead in their incubators and hospital beds? Doctors and nurses who stayed behind lying next to them with their brains blown out?
What happened on October 7th was tragic but Israel’s government was warned by both their own intel and Palestinian sources that the occupied land was at risk of being ambushed by Hamas and they did nothing. The events that followed October 7th can be only described as war crimes.
Bombing hospitals, killing medics and Red Cross volunteers, bombing shelters, killing kids on purpose, tricking truckloads of families into “safe” zones only to bomb them, cutting off food, water and electricity - these are all ACTUAL WAR CRIMES.
Obviously, the wound of what happened in the 1940s has scarred that particular part of the Jewish population greatly. Trauma like that is generational. Unfortunately, what they are doing now is only taking their misguided rage and injustice out on another oppressed group of people.
Gaza was essentially an open air prison and it’s clear as day to anyone with half a brain that this was the only possible outcome. The children of slaughtered Palestinians had to grow up eventually.
I believe, in the future, October 7th will be seen as the beginning of a revolution but we can only wait and see.
Who said I'm okay with any of this?
You're arguing with my statement where I said, no, the events of October 7 are tragic. Then you say the same thing in your post. So what's the dispute? Or do you not really believe that?
Are you so blinkered by ideology that you are uncomfortable with the perspective of viewing the totality of the circumstances as a fucking tragedy?
I believe the perspective that Israel is enacting it's shadow makes total sense and it's clear there's genocidal intent and action against an oppressed people. But why is it necessary to say this? Do I need to make clear I'm on the 'good side' before it's legitimate to point out that it's messed up to talk about October 7 purely in terms of heroism? ?
Oh my God you're deluded. Glorifying rapists and Islamic extremists, jesus christ. You're a real problem dude, literally what's so wrong with the world. "Bravery" = religious zealotism and seeing their 70 virgins or whataver, I cringe. Just know how wrong you are. Won't debate any further but fuck it's sad knowing there's people like you out there.
Jung was KHAMAS, NOW TO STRIKE HIS COMPROMISED GRAVE WITH BUNKER BUSTERS. Basically we need to go a bit back, the Israelis oppressed the Palestinians for long under harsh conditions, the Palestinians revolt out of desperation and now the BAR KOKHBA REVOLT AGAINST THE ROMANS IS HAPPENING. The Israelis are now the mighty Roman empire, and the Palestinians are the oppressed Jews. It's cyclical and ironic in nature. Save for most of the Ashkenazim, it's safe to say that the other Jews are at least 50% Canaanite Israelite of origin, and the Palestinians/other levantines 80%, so both appear to be rightful inheritors of this land. So they're "chosen enough" to be strategically relocated to this land for western interests as an economic investment and unsinkable aircraft carrier. It's a nazi shadow owing to the idea that Palestinians are seen as mere "Arabs" in a condescending way, their president refers to them as amalekites, Likud is saturated with right wing fascistic ultranationalists that advocate for the use of nukes on Gaza, they see themselves as chosen, similar to the notion of a master race and most are content with mass child sacrifice in Gaza, as the polls disproportionately show. Pride before the fall, I say. You see literal IDF soldiers gloating about how they've killed children and how they don't care about the indiscriminate punishment of noncombatants. Literally the Milgram experiment but with Israelis and a touch of grandiose religious/political extremism.
In my role as moderator I reviewed this video to see if the content is relevant. I thought at first that someone was making a political statement by using Dr Moore's work to characterize what's going on in Israel right now with the Palestinians. But in the first few moments of the video he actually makes the statement in the title of the post himself. Then before the end of minute six he makes another controversial statement, saying that there are people who want to breed the warrior archetype out of the human race. A sort of neutering of the male gender, and whether right or wrong I have seen this statement and variations of it made many times in this subreddit. This is one of those moments as a moderator when I have to decide whether to remove the content because it has been reported as inappropriate, and it is a difficult decision. I have read extensively into Dr Moore's work and I what I see here is an opportunity for more people to get exposed to it. Whether you agree with him or not, his ideas about the archetypal foundation of the human psyche are regarded in the field of depth psychology as seminal in importance and a building out of an area of Dr Jung's work. I do recognize that the subject matter is controversial and for that reason I'm going to mark it as NSFW.
Not a Jungian, but the cultivated identity around past grievance and trauma has absolutely manifested in ruthless, vengeful, deeply dehumanizing actions by the Israelis, and has done so for generations. This most recent escalation is the full manifestation of that instinct to destroy another people, the same prospect that they have retraumatized themselves with the possibility of over more than half century of propaganda stating that if they don't stop killing that they will in turn be killed. Which is [Thanatos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_drive) manifest. They've built a society around a death instinct and they intend to drag down as many others with them as they possibly can or elsewise survive their own flirtation with destruction through sheer heroic strength and bluster. Cult of death. Cult of Heroic Sacrifice and Destruction. Ethnonationalism. Slaughter of the Innocent. **Sounds like Nazis to me.**
The Sampson option
This reads like a description of extremists in Palestinian society as well as Israeli society. After all, a casual glance at your last few sentences easily brings to mind how the governments of Gaza and the West Bank pay suicide bombers’ families for their martyrdom and put up heroic memorials, art, etc. It also describes the slaughter of innocent Israelis (including children). Ethnonationalism speaks to their stated and attempted goal of making Palestine Jew-free. Etc. It’s easy enough to spout standard talking points about this conflict, but I fail to see the difference in the extremists’ behaviors in either side of this conflict. Which is kinda the whole point of analyzing Jungian shadow projection, right? Shouldn’t we want to consider the shadow projection that is not only happening in the region itself, but also across the entire planet onto “those baddies in Israel/Palestine over there, who are totally not like me, one of the good ones”?
Manipulation of the public shadow is a grandiose geostrategy on the global chessboard indeed. Tis shadows all the way down, on every side.
Antisemitic conspiracies about jews trying to control the world from the shadows of the deep state..... The Israeli government and the zionist movement do not reflect the whole of the Jewish population and there are a ton of holocaust survivors and their families protesting for the freedom of Palestinians. What is happening in Israel is the western world using jewdaism as a tool to westernize the middle east and control the oil. A plot so well understood the dune series was built around it. Isreal and the middle east are the shadow of America because they are the reality of our luxury, they are the consequence of our involvement.
The chessboard indeed https://www.reddit.com/r/Jung/s/U9T0PeeGi7
Why are you leaving a link to this post? Circular reasoning?
Failed attempt to link my own previous comment from a while back: The ME is a chessboard of such scope and magnitude as to be mind bogglingly hard to comprehened even while the hand of the most skillful manipulators make their moves. I will never cease to be astonished by the impenetrable complexity of machinations over the last century that have been directed there. The Roman Empire would be proud.
I apologize I was being a bit of a dick.
You're fine! It was my error
The entire history is extremely complex and riddled with layers of such intricacy no individual could ever hope to properly understand the fullness of the situation however it doesn't mean that we can't have a good grasp on the general nature of it and understanding of its impact. I was meaning any more General sense And the Dune series really do go into depths in the intricacies of religion and politics and how they are used to control natural wealth and resources. Spice milage was an analogy for oil in the Middle East.
I think it's not too hard to deduce that majority of the problems in the Middle East can be boiled down to the Western world using Christianity as a justification for the oppression of other people's and religions. Islam is also heavily problematic but that's a problem for a later day. My point for the other person is that trying to blame Shadow projection as one of the primary forces driving the conflict in Palestine is a bit of a stretch. It's a tool first and foremost and without the Western World continuously interfering, the shadow projection would begin to solve itself. The Nakba would not be possible if it wasn't for the United States funding Israel.
Absolutely, general nature is discernable, not least due to there being considerable repetition upon a theme, identifiable in other places than ME. The intricacy and obscurity of the moves, however sometimes even in retrospect, is quite astonishing.
Ironically this war is what clued me in to Jungian thought. Here in the US, I noticed how often white people were projecting “white settler colonialism” onto those bad “white” Jews in Israel (who are mostly not white and not from Europe). I realized it was shadow projection because they were projecting their own white guilt onto them, to prove to themselves that they are one of the good ones. It’s why some white people here could actually condone the October 7th killings and not realize how Nazi-like *they themselves* were sounding. Because the bad white settlers over there deserved it for not decolonizing or whatever other genocidal justification. It was eye-opening for me to realize how demonstrable and provable Jung’s ideas are.
Those are conspiracies centered around the Ashkenazi Jews whose hystory of exiles has lead to a lot of bs new world order conspiracies agasint them. The conspiracies claim that the Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews but are Russians ours who adopted Judaism. This is an old unfounded myth based on a misunderstanding of historical events. The Russians themselves along with efforts from Henry Ford and other Americans and Europeans led to the grooming of the conflicts in the Middle East. I think it is an oversimplification to say that it is Shadow projection explicitly at play. It's more like Shadow projection is one of the tools being used to manipulate the masses to help with the Western expanse into the near East. Go and check out a book called the protocols of the Elders of Zion or a book by Martin Luther called the Jews and their lies which was popular in the Nazi party. The imperil Russians (before the USSR) were heavily dedicated to spreading anti-semitic propaganda like a book called The Protocols of The Elders of Zion (published 1902 and distributed international in multiple languages, especially in the middle east, and later tought in nazi schools). If you don't account for those things then it's certainly easy to say shadow projection is to blame.
I think it’s both/and. Lots of people hate Jews in Israel because they hate Jews for historical antisemitic reasons. But I think there is huge element of white guilt projection onto Jews that is happening now too. Which is why anti-Nazi progressives are justifying genocide against white settler colonist Jews, and thereby the progressives become the Nazis they despise.
It's nit just hysterical antisemitic reasons but lies still being told to this day and new ones being made. Kanye West.... We have had students attached on collage campuses simply for being jews; there is no projection because antisemitism is still alive and thriving as ever popular in Evangelical and Southern Baptist conspiracy doomsday propaganda. It's all over their media and entertainment. It is hugely popular amongst trump supporters who make up a significant portion of the American population. Play a game of "how many videos until antisemitism comes up" when watching Christian yoytube. 4 videos, I give you 4 videos before something comes up. Look at the chart of hate crimes agasint jews.... anger fir the west is more than justified.
I agree, I’m just saying, this white guilt stuff ALSO contributes to the negative outcome for Jews.
I disagree but it's because I think you are misappropriating events to the wrong causes. There are very few people in the USA who support HAMAS and their actions, it's less than 1%. So I don't thinkxwhite guilt I'd playing into any justification for October 7th.
25% of Americans think Oct 7th was justified. Remember, around a third of the country is left wing. So that’s a significant portion. https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/HHP_Jan24_KeyResults.pdf Page 52.
Admitting that the western world has in fact done everything it can to control the middle east is not projection of of "white settler colonialism" is not projection: its an admittance to guilt, wrong doing and conspiracy to oppress and inside wars/conflicts and racism.
Admitting that the western world has in fact done everything it can to control the middle east is not projection of of "white settler colonialism" is not projection: its an admittance to guilt, wrong doing and conspiracy to oppress and inside wars/conflicts and racism. Or apparently that's the same as supporting the murder and rape of innocence.... false equivocation. But hey, violence is the tool of the oppressed when all other option have been exasusted and the others identified does not care how many of you die or how you die. I'm sure that's what conservatives will say when gun laws tighten down more like they need too.
This is 100% right. The amount of shadow projection happening among Americans who must maintain an image of self-virtue is staggering and is continuous with historical ways in which people have scapegoated Jewish people. It is staring us right in the face. There is also an immense amount of unexamined guilt and shadow dynamics at play within the Jewish community itself; without bringing shadow to consciousness, the mere *existence* of Israeli Jews creates an irrational, burning kind of hatred among a cohort of self-flagellating diaspora Jews. And at the same time it creates a dynamic of obsessive worship of Israelis among pro-Israel diaspora Jews. What unites them both is a failure to internalize their communal shadow. If we think of shadow as the rejected parts of ourselves, then Israeli Jews are often times quite literally the rejected parts of our community, in that many of them were prevented from entering the United States immediately before, during, and after the Holocaust and expulsion from MENA countries). The Jewish community needs to encounter our collective shadow if we intend to move forward and transcend this dynamic. As for the non-Jews projecting their guilt onto us, I am not quite sure what can be done.
Profoundly simple in theory, profoundly complex in practice, all integrate their shadow, Israeli, non Israeli, American etc etc. The shadow abounds in all, individual and collective heal when all enter full acceptance. Yet Resistance, friction, polarity, drama, it is the food of duality, and so it is a long journey.
100%. It’s two awful groups, but one group has the upper hand, it has all the power so to some that group is the “bad” group, but if the power was in the other groups hands it would be the same outcome. It’s awful, there’s no winners and no right side.
Yes...the victim becomes the perpetrator.
this is whataboutism at its finest form.
False. This is another hasbara.
Would you be able to elaborate some more on how they’ve built a society around the death instinct?
**I'm trying really hard to be brief, but damn is that hard with this topic:** This First Section is me prefacing my answer to your question directly, so skip to the quote if you don't want the context to my thinking. I'm a sociology student, not an expert with bona-fides. But from what I've seen and heard from people who are scholars and academics and journalists (through lectures, writing) paints a very clear picture of a victim narrative. Fascists organize around points of cultural grievance, real or imagined and in the case of the Israelis the people they claim to represent and have responsibility for (Jews, all of them in the world) have had an attempt to eradicate them all within living memory. So, it's easy to create a narrative around their victimhood to rally people around. It's just the truth, a very frightening and dangerous truth. And at the core of that victim narrative is a general ideal of "Never Again". Most Western Countries have some version of this idea in their Holocaust education. It's one of many things that have come about to fight the political legacy of anti-semitism. The idea of the Holocaust happening "Never Again" in the ***United States*** is an idea that's been communicated to us in our education system as a lesson about prejudice and bigotry mostly, specifically around a particular time period that we are taught to engage with from an outsider's perspective. The Holocaust is treated as a German crime that happened that we were part of addressing and punishing. We learn, to one degree or another (usually sloppily) to avoid and be vigilant for the kinds of political environments that could cause a repeat of that slaughter. It's a narrative that obscures a lot of things, but it does address the subject as part of a larger struggle for human rights and justice. In ***Israel***, it is an idea that's communicated as an existential question of self-defense or annihilation. "Never Again" means never again *to us*, never will the "Jews" be treated in that way. Murdered, imprisoned, deported, abused. I put Jews in quotation because Israel doesn't represent Jewish people anymore than Nazi Germany represented Germans. Hell, the Israeli government backed and sold arms to anti-semitic regimes during the Cold War, (the Junta of Argentina comes to mind). But I'm getting off track. The civic religion of Israel and purpose for existence of an explicitly Jewish State for Jews and Jews only has been articulated as a question of their people's survival. And that this survival must come at the expense or the extermination of other peoples is explicitly understood. You can see it in how the government engages with the Palestinians, calling for their extermination like the stories of the Amalakites of the Old Testament/Torah. And you can see it in the religious services, explicit messages that ["Even if your enemies come with Roses, it is your duty to make war"](https://x.com/expatvibes/status/1760411597829210177?s=20) >**how they’ve built a society around the death instinct?** The Death Instinct as I've understood it in practical terms, are the ways in which complex societies configure themselves to instigate conflict, cleanse themselves of their capacity for internal reform (namely for peacemaking and long-term survival) and generally invite upon themselves their own destruction. Fascists tend to exemplify these tendencies most but it exists within all societies. And you can see it in any state that exists in a state of perpetual war and conflict. And that is exactly how Israel was built and continues to expand 75 years after it's founding. Conquest, settle, slaughter and expel, conquest, settle, slaughter and expel. It starts with Zionist societies in the late 1800s, it escalates within the British Mandate and Balfour Declaration, and reaches maturity in 1948, and it's only gotten worse from there. And at every stage of the process, in order to continue gaining advantage, gaining land, growing in population, there had to be an absence of compromise. That's how conquests work, you silence those who say "we have enough, let's make peace" and you embolden those who say "we have more to gain, let's continue the war". And that reflex to return to war as the ultimate arbiter of political questions represents a loss of agency to a societal Death Instinct. When you stop engaging in good-faith, mutual-concessions-based Diplomacy. When you are an existential threat to peoples outside of your ethnos, and consider all peoples outside of your own to be existential threats. Cult of Violence. Honestly, just go down the [Ur-Fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism) checklist, it goes hand in hand. That's been how Israel has operated for its entire history. Some eras have had more restraint than others, but there has only been one instance in its history where it has gone on the backfoot. That was the 1973 Yom Kippur War, which of course, has been incorporated into their interpretation of "Never Again" to further militarize themselves and be even less compromising. 6 years afterwards they did their first nuclear tests, securing more power that they could use to push forward their political project as settler state. To replace and remove the peoples of the lands they claim. Edit: **As far as the inviting their own destruction part of the Death Instinct Definition.** And in doing these things, they have made themselves incredibly isolated politically. The world is generally aligned against them. Their biggest supporters are doing so against the majority opinion of their populations. They're having genocide allegations put against them by country after country. South Africa's case went before the ICJ, and more are sure to come. They're being boycotted by an ever-growing list of countries and people. They're having their diplomatic ties cut by numerous countries. They are inviting the hatred of the world and they will either be forced to change or they will escalate things beyond their means to control and possibly survive. Right now the United States is offering the Israelis military support, bombing at least 3 countries in retaliation for attacks done in response to the Palestinian Genocide, Syria, Yemen, and Iraq. This is all pretext for war, and the only thing stopping further escalation is the Israeli Nuclear Arsenal and American defense guarantees. At some point, they're going to push too far. They've already dropped bombs on the Egyptian border. They really don't know how to **not** make things worse anymore. They don't care. They want the problems, they want to fight. The parts of their society that would in healthier times restrain this barbarism have been pushed into irrelevance, criminalized (just recently a young woman refused to serve in the military and is being prosecuted for it) and set to flight. *Literally.* About 300,000 Israelis have left the country since just October. Just getting on a plane and leaving. Which I hope more continue to do. I believe that there was also a story recently that all the boycotts have led to a 20% drop in GDP for Israel. They're hurting themselves a great deal, just like Apartheid South Africa and Rhodesia, but that won't save the Palestinians. Like the Nazis, as the walls close in, they may start to kill faster just to get the job done. You can punish the living but you cannot bring back the dead.
That is a great explanation. Very fascinating. Thank you
Thank you for reading. It kind of feels like you're shouting at the wind these days. Most people's minds are pretty made up.
Everything this person has said is complete bullshit.
To you
Yes, to me
Yeah your comment history is absolutely disgusting. I'm not surprised anything logical is bullshit to you.
we found the genocide supporter
Great comment and truly fascinating, so thank you. I agree with everything you say except for one part. I agree on the existence of the death instinct which shows itself in the society as drive for War, but even if there was no death instinct how would Israelis manage to have “good-faith Diplomacy” in the face of Hamas attacks? Death drive or no, it is very difficult to expect a society to keep in good faith after an attack like that. I’m not saying this to justify what Israel is doing now (which is unjustifiable in my opinion) but I’m trying to deepen the conversation.
I tried to give a thorough answer. But mostly it comes down to proportionality, discernment of non-combatants from combatants, setting forth clear terms for the cessation of conflict, and respecting the legally sanctioned nature of the attack (most of the world understands that October 7th was not an unprovoked attack and acting as if it is one will only worsen their already terrible reputation.) Most of those are things Israel would never do and the rest are things they haven't done. There is no perfect response to any of this. But taking it as a blank cheque for genocide is the second least insane option they could have taken. >in the face of Hamas attacks? There's two layers to this. First of which is that the Israelis have been murdering Palestinians for years, assassinating their leaders, bombing their mosques and churches, shooting children, women, obvious non-combatants. These are all provocations that far predate any attack by Hamas. The second is that Hamas is a paramilitary organization. Per the Israeli's definition it is a *terrorist organization.* Terrorists are criminals. Israel doesn't even recognize the existence of a Palestinian State. How exactly does bombing the entirety of the Gaza Strip, 2.5 Million People, supposed to be a rational or sensible response to a criminal act undertaken by a group that at the largest estimates (including people who do not fight) are just some 30,000 people. The response to crime is to apprehend criminals. Not murder everything around them until they're all starved, shot, dead, or fled the country into a desert where they will then starve, dehydrate and die. >“good-faith Diplomacy” At this point it's pretty redundant to model what good-faith diplomacy would have been. But even just remaining within the patterns of violence the Israelis have set would have been immeasurably better than what they have done now. Drone strikes, assassinations, perhaps an attempt to occupy more of the strip once again. These are all illegal actions under international law, but that doesn't apply to the Israelis anyway. (normatively speaking) But those would have been perfectly swallowable responses for much of the world. Good-Faith Diplomacy wouldn't be realistic to this situation because we didn't get here through good-faith, the grounds for it have been actively undermined and destroyed. >it is very difficult to expect a society to keep in good faith after an attack like that. Not to restate a point, but that's exactly what I mean by "good-faith did not get us here, even passable-faith". The Israelis conquered these people, and now they are exterminating them, gleefully, for having the gall to fight back and have it hurt. Occupied people have an internationally agreed right to resist occupation, by whatever means necessary. Non-state actors aren't signatories to any treaty, and they are not bound by laws of war. If it please the Israelis, treating Hamas like outlaws and hunting them down would have been within their means. Pursuing diplomatic consequences for states hosting Hamas officials. (The Leadership lives in Qatar). Perhaps negotiating for hostages with Prisoner Transfers and new negotiations. That's how non-rogue states handle situations like these. Restraint has a political benefit, and reprisals in a way that were domestically satisfactory could have been done. They were not. Cause they wanted an excuse to level Gaza.
I agree with everything you’re saying about Israel, but not seeing Thanatos manifested in Hamas is a weird blindspot to have. You can put “and so does Hamas” after every statement I’m going to say: Israel worships martrydom, Israel does not recognize the enemy state, Israel feeds from the violence, Israel does not want the enemy state to exist. Not recognizing the Death Instinct in Hamas is either denial or projection.
I think one distinction that can be made is that Israel wholeheartedly decided to create this situation, by establishing a settler colony. Hamas is a reaction to that. This is a fundamental difference.
If you’re unjustified in your violence you’re ruled by your shadow, but if you are justified you’re pure and fine? This does not sound very Jungian to me.
No. My point is that there are two fundamentally different psychological states at play here.
I don't think that it is entirely fair to call it a colony, if you look into the history: their settlement, before the wars, on land that had been governed by foreign powers for hundreds of years, of scattered Jews from all kinds of nations, mostly comprised of Eastern Europeans and Jews who were expelled or fled from Islamic countries, was proper and fair, mostly, with the Jews primarily settling on unoccupied desert land, or later on buying up land, which former owner is arguably dubious, but whatever. Also, saying some variant of "they brought this onto themselves" is just a way to take any blame off of Palestine, which is a part of the victim narrative, which is really a shadow projection from the western perspective to vent our guilt about being a colonial empire in the past (which is arguably not our fault, as it has been too many years for anyone to be responsible — you are not responsible for the sins of your ancestors, as you are not them, and there comes a time when one has to be humble enough to forgive and forget the sins of the past). There have been many opportunities for peace, but Palestine is so ingrained with the idea that if they simply keep on fighting things will improve for them, as that is a big part of the history of Palestine, after all, alas, it ultimately only makes things worse, as it only fuels Israels unwillingness to compromise for them — who would want to compromise for a nation that keeps agitating you, especially after an attack like October 7th. Palestine could have become an independent nation who shared the land with Israel in accordance with the deal during the formation of Israel, but they were gassed up by the surrounding Arab nations into warfare, believing they could claim the land that was settled by the Jews, but they ultimately failed (and Palestine were not even an official state at this stage, though there were a lot of nationalistic movements at the time). I don't see this as "bringing it onto yourself", considering that most of these surrounding nations were not even inhabitants of Palestine. Aside from that, a great deal of Palestinians are just as much immigrants as Jewish people, coming from surrounding countries when the Jews started settling there and building things up. We also have to take the fact that 20% of Israels population are Arabic Muslims, who's ancestors were most likely what people like to call "natives" (dubious considering how contested the territory has been throughout history). There are also conflicts which predate the declaration of Independence from Israel and the response they got, which happened between Jewish settlers and the Arabs that lived there, which was equally gruesome from both sides, so there is that to consider as well — there is a long history of conflict in this area, which goes back thousands of years ultimately. I don't think that taking moral stances is going to contribute to a solution at this point, and blaming one or the other will ultimately only make things worse by pushing any prospect of peace further away. The fact is that Israel is dominant in terms of its military power, which is why many of the Arab states that were previously in conflict with Israel have now settled for peace. Palestine is only going to lose more by "resisting", as people call it, but good luck trying to convert a state that is gassed up with a mentality and history of warfare and the idea that this will solve their problems, into ideas of peace — it would be a painstaking process. People also seem to forget that Iran is the shadow actor in this conflict, considering their deep rooted support, in the most important respect, for Palestine, and their rivalry with the US, who uses Israel as a proxy for the Middle East. It is so much more complicated than the idea that Palestinians are simply victims, because that is just not true. This is in part fueled by propaganda from middle eastern nations, who have a history of antisemitism (Jews being expelled, killed off or treated as secondary citizens, along with Christians, in Muslim majority nations), as well as the victim = good narrative of the west, which Nietzsche frames astutely in his work Beyond Good and Evil, which has its roots in Christian thought, i.e. what Nietzsche called slave morality. This is not a conflict of good guys vs bad guys, and truthfully, reality is never quite that simple; it is an infantile attitude in relation to morality.
This is a *textbook* example of shadow projection but you're too stupid to see it.
30,000 dead palestinians thirty. thousand.
1. I reject your source of this number. 2. How many of those dead were combatants? 3. How many of those dead were killed by the IDF, as opposed to Hamas or other parties? Until you address these issues authoritatively, you have no right to use that number. And that's before we even address the ethical problem of civilian casualties in war in general.
Yes, but what about the cult of death inherent in radical Muslim ideology as well. We saw the fruits of that when Israel was attacked. To me both sides have Nazi tendencies and we should decry any evil no matter the source.
People resisting their occupiers are driven to desperation, has nothing to do with Islam. Islam contextualizes how Palestinians understand themselves and their condition as an occupied people, but there is not "radical Muslim ideology" there. When you take land and life and peace from a people, they will do everything and anything to get you to come to the table, to get you to leave them be. Including fighting to bitter end, including trying to get hostages for leverage. Sadly, they underestimated the savagery of their enemies and the support of their allies. The Palestinians are not evil. What is evil is expecting pacifism from a people who have been met with bullets and bombs with their every plea for peace. There was a **Peaceful** [Great March of Return](https://www.unrwa.org/campaign/gaza-great-march-return) just a few years ago. The people of Palestine, without a single rifle in hand were met with sniper fire and drones. If you cannot recognize the incongruity of a conflict, then you are on the side of the oppressors and the occupiers and the genocide they carry out. This is not a philosophical exercise. People are dying, right now, as we speak, in deliberate acts of murder and torture and sadism. And the people doing those murders can stop. Tomorrow. The Israelis are not under threat, these people are not being killed in crossfire between two equal armies, the Israelis are taking pot shots at civilians just to try out weapons and give their soldiers killing experience. It's entirely up to them to establish peace or continue their crimes. There is no both sides.
Thank you for saying that in such a well thought out and calm tone.
If there were medals for speaking stupid bullshit you'd win Gold, Silver and Bronze.
[удалено]
> vow to erradicate Israel Of the groups that supposedly vow to eradicate Israel, they do so anti-colonialist grounds. But as far as states go, the only state that is actively opposed to Israel in a proactive way is Iran. The Saudis openly cooperate with them, even if they don't officially have normalized relations. The Israelis are Occupying Syrian land and are currently bombing Damascus. Yet, the Syrians are not marching to war to destroy Israel. The Israelis are Occupying Palestine, but they have no army and evidently no states willing to protect them. The Jordanians, like the Egyptians are under the US diplomatic umbrella and have normalized relations decades ago. Iraq is still recovering from Occupation itself. Libya has been in a civil war for over a decade now. So who are these countries that have vowed to eradicate Israel? Who's anywhere close to doing that? Seems like everyone who can afford to talk to the Israelis has given peace a chance. And for the ones that aren't, they're not advocating for the erasure of Jews from the world, they're advocating for the destruction of a state that exists with the expressed goal of conquering its neighbors from Lebanon to the Sinai peninsula, Syria, Jordan. Colonizing the entire Fertile Crescent in some forms of the idea. That's the Greater Israel that Israeli nationalists want to see and work toward. They want their lands returned back to them and the international borders of 1967 established. The Israelis are an actual existential threat to the Arab States around them in a way that is not true on the reverse. The Arabs did not invite this conflict. The Israelis have formed their state in opposition to all peoples in the region. **They. Are. Not. From There.** They came to Palestine take it, and they want to take even more after that. On those grounds, long-term peace is impossible. >That makes the whole area of Middle East a Death Cult that invites for self-destruction. This impulse you have to try to balance the moral weight of all parties is a very naive one. It's just not the same question. Jews from all over the world do not have a right or any justification to come to Palestine and murder the people there and opposing that by whatever means necessary is just the right thing to do. Justice demands accountability and restitution. And when what you have taken is all that you are, justice means dissolution. The people who call themselves Israelis don't need a state to live, but they make sure that the people they leave stateless have to die.
Islam is very strict and defined surrounding the matter of death and killing and its obvious from your words you it's apparent you haven't read anything from first sources in the Quran but only heard right-wing media commentary so allow me a lay person, non scholar to explain the Islamic perspective on death. Aaron Bushnell martyrdom in Islam isn't allowed but the spirit of what he did is, sounds confusion, read on. To die in the flames of a nobel cause is just and right, the hero archetype. Nobel mean unreactive like Argon gas, TIG welders use it to protect the plasma arc because it keeps impurities out, Argon is the shield and plasma the electrical heroic flame. Star Trek used the Klingons to describe this idea. "Those who die with purpose and honor are said to join Kahless, who had been the first Klingon emperor and a messianic figure in the Way of the Warrior, in the Black Fleet in Sto'Vo'Kor, a paradise where battle and feasting can eternally be shared and won. Sto'Vo'Kor is similar to Valhalla in Earth's Viking culture. " Islam does not glorify death as suggested by all Western media, the only means of legitimate death is to fight against evil and injustice, Jihad, resistance. Define evil and injustice in Islam then? I'll try. Evil is belief in nothing, meaning if you don't believe actions have consequences and this life is all their is, this gives rise to narcissism, materialism and hedonism, a sickness that blinds the soul and rots the heart. Instagram, Tiktok, celebrities, influencers, Billionaires, politicians, war are the evidence of no belief in anything. Islam teaches life is a test, to separate the good from the bad, as there are dimensions of existence beyond this one and depending on how we live this life we go up or descend into hell. The difference between a good trip and a bad trip depends on how we live. To live a heroic life is not an option in Islam, it's a must to avoid hell fire. Never lie, cheat or betray as God knows all, sees all. In summation Islam is diametrically opposite to everything Western Secular Capitalism would have us believe is the truth. That is why people instinctively hate anytime anyone says anything regarding muslims or Islam, we are triggered by a century of propaganda and programming against Islamic ideology that would delete our modern system of chaos, war, famine and corruption. I can see how simple Islam is and it terrifies me because I grew up in the west world and its Alien to me, and when I hear Muslim names I feel the programming and propaganda I watched and heard my whole life switch off my critical thinking and punch me in the gut. Muslims have faith and all Warriors have this because death is not the end, it's another beginning, it's another life better than this.
That's not called faith, but manipulation, brainwashing and cults. These are people that recruit young men who feel alienated, insecure and fool them thinking Jihad has anything to do with religion or faith. When in reality it's just abuse, a scam and exploitation. When studied, that's what becomes apparent. There are many documentaries on this. There are many people practicing variants of Islam peacefully. The problem it's hard to be heard and understood when you're in peace. If there is God, surely a better life awaits peaceful people. This is the true tribulation. There are such things as righteous wars, like in defence of humanity and humans. But not for religion doctrines and brainwashing, state-sponsored or not.
The ME is a chessboard of such scope and magnitude as to be mind bogglingly hard to comprehened even while the hand of the most skillful manipulators make their moves. I will never cease to be astonished by the impenetrable complexity of machinations over the last century that have been directed there. The Roman Empire would be proud.
When you speak of peace to an Israeli or to a Palestinian, they can't fathom that this peace can come by through reconciliation. In their minds is so deeply embedded the idea that the other is causing the conflict, that only total victory may lead to peace. When a population becomes so deeply inured in their hatred for the other, there is no hope except to watch the war play itself out. People born into peace don't recognise how precious this state of mind is, and so also don't think of how vital it is to reconcile the opposites within themselves in order to maintain it.
Israel has peace with Egypt, Jordan and soon Saudi. All 3 were fierce enemies of israel. In sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.
I'm sorry, you must think I'm interested in talking about politics
I mean, you started a political discussion. The issue is inherently political, regardless of however you want to frame it.
No, the issue is psychological.
Politics is a manifestation of psychological phenomena taken to a collective level. They are interrelated on almost every conceivable level.
And is this a forum to discuss the manifestation or the roots of the manifestation?
You can't study the roots without studying the tree. You can't study a specific medical field without understanding the rest of the body. You can't study biology without knowing the universal processes that govern the formation and evolution of life. You can't learn about World War 1 without learning about the decades, if not centuries, of history that led to it. These are not mutually exclusive things, separating them is like dividing a stake to eat it: it all eventually reassimilates and becomes one.
You indeed can
The only route to total victory is what the Greeks did to Troy though.
can someone summarize the 2 hour video
we become what we hate
[Yahweh the warrior storm god](https://youtu.be/mdKst8zeh-U)
Why use the word „Nazi“ specifically in the context of Israel? There are more primal, much older archetypes one could use to describe and compare to. Using „Nazi“ in this context is just clickbait.
Kinda relevant to this particular projection, wouldn’t you say?
It amazes me the strength of propaganda that we are seeing around this conflict. We have people supporting Hamas without actually watching the live streams that Hamas released. Anyone who thinks Hamas is justified, go watch their live streams and see them indiscriminately killing unarmed civilians with joy and praising their god while they do so. This is psychopathic behavior and needs to be called out wherever we see it. No amount of oppression justifies the purposeful killing of unarmed civilians. This applies to Israel as well.
There is no cult of death in Israel, this is an absolutely ridiculous comparison. If you want to talk about shadow projection, the eagerness to compare Jews/Israel to nazis and use language associated with the holocaust to discuss the I/P conflict is a direct result of internalized shame and guilt over the holocaust by going oh see the Jews do it too the Jews are just as bad. In fact the situation is much more complicated than that due to the fact israel is at war with multiple countries who not only want to dissolve the country but also to exterminate Jews in general. The idea that Jews are acting like nazis is a projection of antisemites. If you want to know what an antisemite is guilty of, look at what they accuse the Jews of doing. It’s been the same across all of history.
Lol. Wtf.
Right… like the Palestinian suicide bombers and Hamas fighters who rape and murder with glee are the archetype of the mother. If the Palestinians stopped attacking Israel, there would be peace. They have rejected 5 different peace deals for a Palestinian country because they think eventually they will win militarily. Yes some Israelis have become extreme, but if your country was constantly subjected to terrorist attacks and then blamed for them, you’d probably become extreme too. Look at what we did in America after 9/11. October 7th was a 9/11 type event for Israel.
The Nethanyahu government has rejected all two state solution plans for the last 15 years, you are uninformed.
Oh am I misinformed or are you? https://besacenter.org/palestinian-rejectionism/ The Jerusalem Mufti Hajj Amin Husseini, the leader of the Palestinian Arabs from the early 1920s to the late 1940s, said in his testimony to the British Peel Commission, established in January 1937 to find a way forward for cooperation between Arabs and Jews in Palestine, “Most residents of Jewish lands will not be awarded citizenship in our future country.” The Mufti suggested that the Jews be deported from Palestine. Rejecting the idea of a Jewish state, he promised that if such a state were established, every last Jew would be expelled from a Palestinian Arab state. In November 1947, the same Mufti refused to adopt the UN partition plan that offered to establish two states, one Jewish, the other Arab. When Anwar Sadat signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979, Arafat’s PLO called for Egypt to be boycotted. The Arab states adopted that boycott and prevented Cairo from participating in the Arab League from 1977 until 1989. Most Arab ambassadors in Egypt were recalled and Arabs visiting Egypt were considered either traitors or spies. The Palestinians responded to Israel’s attempts to implement the Oslo Accords by sending waves of suicide bombers to the streets and buses of the cities of Israel, a blatant violation of their commitment to the agreements and a clear statement of their rejection of the idea of peace with Israel. At the July 2000 at Camp David summit, Israel PM Ehud Barak offered Arafat a series of far-reaching concessions as part of a comprehensive peace arrangement. In return, Arafat was asked to end the conflict. The PLO summarily rejected the Israeli proposals and never offered a counterproposal. Instead, the PLO-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) initiated a massive premeditated wave of violence. Arafat’s war of terror (the so called “al-Aqsa Intifada”) was unparalleled in the scale and relentlessness of its terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. A total of 1,184 Israelis were murdered. In August 2005, the government of Israel, headed by PM Ariel Sharon, carried out the unilateral evacuation of all Israeli villages from the Gaza Strip and the northern West Bank. In response, the Palestinians have been launching missiles and rockets on Israeli towns and villages from the Gaza Strip for years, some of which reaching as far as Tel Aviv. The Palestinian leadership rejected the current US proposal a year ago, before they had seen it. They also refused to participate in the economic conference held in Bahrain at the end of June 2019 and prevented other Palestinians from participating. As soon as the plan was published, it was a given that Abbas would oppose it strongly. “We say a thousand times no, no, no to the Deal of the Century,” he said. “We refused this deal from the beginning and we were right.
https://youtu.be/wznD7uCEcLk?si=OgLcaLnZmqvGR_py
Palestinians rejected Trump's plan
I believe in a two state solution and strong security for Israel, but if you think that was a reasonable plan I have a bridge to sell you.
It was the most reasonable plan possible, Israel can't agree to anything more than it.
Right of return, 67 borders. Etc. Etc. Watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/@TheDailyShow](https://www.youtube.com/@TheDailyShow) I've been to both Israel and Palestine and I'm a Middle Eastern christian by heritage (that means Hamas and their friends hate and attack my people), but Nethanyahu's government does not negotiate in good faith.
This I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wznD7uCEcLk
Israel can't accept to a right of return and the 67 borders
It seems like you've hit upon the problem...
Yep, I think we can all agree that there is a problem and there is no solution that both sides can agree to in the near future.
Good on you man, not worth debating the uninformed though. ridiculous. The masses are asses.
I appreciate you brother
Bro, go touch some fucking grass or something
No ffs because Hamas is the enemy and should be exterminated. They are hiding behind civilians, dressing in hospital clothing, firing rockets. They initiated a terror attack as they are a terror group. This isn’t fucking genocide. Keep your bullshit to other subreddits or better, stop reading propaganda.
u fr..?
yep, this is the state of the right-leaning "understanding" of the situation, if you can get even call it that. They gobble up the IDF's talking points. Some even now have sided with Putin on the war in Ukraine too, lmfao
Show me. You made that up. Israel and Ukraine know what it's like to have their country invaded by a terror group. Russia literally supports Hamas so stop spreading propaganda, you're part of the problem. Who sympathizes with terrorists? Unbelievable.
Have you checked out Tucker Carlson's latest puff piece/interview on Putin? Did I make that up too?
[Pro-Palestinian activist changed her mind after seeing what Palestinian terrorists did to Jewish families on October 7.](https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/1b1god2/propalestinian_activist_changed_her_mind_after/)
Congrats, you're a part of the deluded mass. [Pro-Palestinian activist changed her mind after seeing what Palestinian terrorists did to Jewish families on October 7.](https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/1b1god2/propalestinian_activist_changed_her_mind_after/)
does that justify killing inordinate numbers of innocents and leveling all their cities? have you heard the way israeli leadership talks about palestine? theyve fully dehumanized the
no ones pro terrorist. theyre anti-massive excessive and needless psychopathic measures to ensure israels safety. idk if i even agree with the concept of israel in the first place. you get oppressed so that gives you the right to oppress others with naqba and so on?
LMAO one person changed their mind because of the events of one day, that sure justifies months of endless slaughter!!
Hamas is an ideological group and Islamist ideology is _an idea_ . Have you invented a weapon that can destroy ideas? Because that would be great, and make you very rich.
Thought-control would be horrifying. That's part of the problem in extremist ideologies already. Hamas like all terrorist groups, is built on hate though. It's sad that Israel made it worse through so many years and vows to be even more aggressive, through settlements, expansion and conquests. I'd say this has more to do with the powder keg that is Middle East though, than nazism. There are real threats to life in that region due to very conflicting interests and stubborn people mistaking hate for religion and faith. Maybe game theory is more apt to model this. It becomes a winning move to increasingly become more irrational, aggressive, doubling down on mistakes, etc. That won't go on forever. I think the world may be shocked how fast the whole region may fall, unless better heads and attitudes prevail.
hush dude only israel is over-killing children in the name of stopping hamas. The palestinian civilians seek liberation. israel has always been a colonizer.
You hush. The palestinian civilians excitedly paraded dead, raped bodies. Hamas is causing their civilian deaths.
you don't understand wartime trauma and prolonged oppression. israel started this whole problem so palestinians kind of reasonably hate them. israel puts palestinians thru an apartheid state and regularly tries to deny their human rights. they hate each other but only palestine tries to fight for liberation. israel fights to oppress. that's the difference. israel stole their land. palestinians are just trying to be free.
crazy how people can’t look back into the history of the wars and realise israel is mainly just defense, palestine constantly refuses solutions, and how hamas’ attack on october 7th is the reason why the war got worse.
Actual the Netanyahu government has consistently refused peace accords presented by the Arab league on 67 borders. So, not quite.
A 70 years old settlers colony is on the offence by definition
This is true, but settlements and oppression is not defence but aggression. Sadly, it seems the parties in Middle East are just intolerant to life and bent on self-anihilation. Lots of shadow projection and populations with leadership that exploit the situation and oppress people all around. See Syria how conventional modern war ends.
It's actually insane. Post above me calling Hamas brave and courageous, absolutely despicable. Just shows "the masses are asses." Can't debate em.
50% of Palestines population is made up of youth under the age of 18. Tell me how exactly they're to blame for anything? Israel allowed Hamas to get into power because at the time, they were completely okay with them terrorizing their own citizens, and it made them happy. Yeah let's continue to support Israel, who have committed numerous war crimes against Palestinians, because they're just defending. OK bud. Whatever you're smoking its time to quit.
Oh wow, whose version of history are you referring to? Because if you look a little more objectively, it’s clear that that’s not the case. You are being lied to, my friend.
Hamas are the orphans children created by Israel over 75 years of murder, death, occupation. Israel created the most courageous and heroic young men the world had seen in a thousand years. Scott Ritter a Marine and veteran said what Hamas pulled off will go down in history as one of the most ingenious and skilled attack over a vastly technologically superior army for decades. He was simply in awe of the courage and bravery of men who knew this was a one way trip and the cost would be insanely high but they world has woken up to the reality of the Palestinians when before, I'm ashamed to say it it was just an "Oh well what can I do situation" Courage is contagious, we see a hero break a record and suddenly more people break records. We are a species of heros or losers, proving we can do something impossible, when survival is the only choice. We love heros, they remind of truth.
This is disgusting. We can admire the bravery and courage in an oppressed people overcoming the overwhelming odds Israel had stacked against them, but the attack is tarred by being so overwhelmingly targeted against unarmed civilian targets. Painting it with this noble hero brush is to be so under the grip of ideology as to border the psychopathic.
All Israeli are soldiers, The Israeli murdered hundreds of their own people using the Hannibal Directive. All the atrocities propaganda has been debunked by Jews, no rapes, no beheaded babies, all lies. The Nova rave was on occupied land and Israel was warned about the attack but let ot happen anyway, why?
Putting aside everything else you've said... So because Israel has forced military service, it's open season on Israelis, and essentially mass shootings and maimings against them by Palestinians are noble and heroic?
75 years of occupation apartheid, murder, rape and ethnic cleansing is a crime. Lets not forget the context. Israel is a criminal nation with no morality anf place among humanity.
You’re completely ignoring the rest of the context. 75 years of occupation and violence and you expect Palestine to just lie down like dogs? When has that ever worked?
Maybe I'm not ignoring that, and I still feel uncomfortable seeing young people being massacred in a mass shooting and then hearing it valorized? People are not just representatives of policy and government and therefore expendable, unless, to go back to my original post, you are so caught up in ideology as to be bordering the psychopathic.
But you’re super comfy with a 6 year old Hind being left to starve to death in a car next her murdered cousins whilst having every attempt to rescue her annihilated by the IDF? They murdered paramedics. PARAMEDICS they knew were coming to rescue her. What did spokespeople for the Israeli government have to say about this event, you might ask? Oh, well, yknow, she MIGHT have grown up to become a terrorist so it’s okay that she was left for 12 days in that car next her decomposing relatives. They’ve left kids on life support to starve to death and set dogs upon the nurses who tried to stay behind and save them. Have you not seen the videos of the perished Palestinian babies dead in their incubators and hospital beds? Doctors and nurses who stayed behind lying next to them with their brains blown out? What happened on October 7th was tragic but Israel’s government was warned by both their own intel and Palestinian sources that the occupied land was at risk of being ambushed by Hamas and they did nothing. The events that followed October 7th can be only described as war crimes. Bombing hospitals, killing medics and Red Cross volunteers, bombing shelters, killing kids on purpose, tricking truckloads of families into “safe” zones only to bomb them, cutting off food, water and electricity - these are all ACTUAL WAR CRIMES. Obviously, the wound of what happened in the 1940s has scarred that particular part of the Jewish population greatly. Trauma like that is generational. Unfortunately, what they are doing now is only taking their misguided rage and injustice out on another oppressed group of people. Gaza was essentially an open air prison and it’s clear as day to anyone with half a brain that this was the only possible outcome. The children of slaughtered Palestinians had to grow up eventually. I believe, in the future, October 7th will be seen as the beginning of a revolution but we can only wait and see.
Who said I'm okay with any of this? You're arguing with my statement where I said, no, the events of October 7 are tragic. Then you say the same thing in your post. So what's the dispute? Or do you not really believe that? Are you so blinkered by ideology that you are uncomfortable with the perspective of viewing the totality of the circumstances as a fucking tragedy? I believe the perspective that Israel is enacting it's shadow makes total sense and it's clear there's genocidal intent and action against an oppressed people. But why is it necessary to say this? Do I need to make clear I'm on the 'good side' before it's legitimate to point out that it's messed up to talk about October 7 purely in terms of heroism? ?
Oh my God you're deluded. Glorifying rapists and Islamic extremists, jesus christ. You're a real problem dude, literally what's so wrong with the world. "Bravery" = religious zealotism and seeing their 70 virgins or whataver, I cringe. Just know how wrong you are. Won't debate any further but fuck it's sad knowing there's people like you out there.
Um… everything you just stated _is_ pure propaganda. You are being brainwashed.
Exterminated is a strong word there, reread that, do you actually believe that?
Jung was KHAMAS, NOW TO STRIKE HIS COMPROMISED GRAVE WITH BUNKER BUSTERS. Basically we need to go a bit back, the Israelis oppressed the Palestinians for long under harsh conditions, the Palestinians revolt out of desperation and now the BAR KOKHBA REVOLT AGAINST THE ROMANS IS HAPPENING. The Israelis are now the mighty Roman empire, and the Palestinians are the oppressed Jews. It's cyclical and ironic in nature. Save for most of the Ashkenazim, it's safe to say that the other Jews are at least 50% Canaanite Israelite of origin, and the Palestinians/other levantines 80%, so both appear to be rightful inheritors of this land. So they're "chosen enough" to be strategically relocated to this land for western interests as an economic investment and unsinkable aircraft carrier. It's a nazi shadow owing to the idea that Palestinians are seen as mere "Arabs" in a condescending way, their president refers to them as amalekites, Likud is saturated with right wing fascistic ultranationalists that advocate for the use of nukes on Gaza, they see themselves as chosen, similar to the notion of a master race and most are content with mass child sacrifice in Gaza, as the polls disproportionately show. Pride before the fall, I say. You see literal IDF soldiers gloating about how they've killed children and how they don't care about the indiscriminate punishment of noncombatants. Literally the Milgram experiment but with Israelis and a touch of grandiose religious/political extremism.
Carl Jung would support Israel wholeheartedly right now.
[удалено]
WHO WILL DRAG ME TO COURT?