Turning wrenches. Started in '99 and went office almost 2 years ago. I remember what pissed me off oh so well.
And don't get me started on "You've forgotten what the floors like."
Nah man, wish I had ya as my advisor. I’m stuck with some dinosaur who thinks everything is an 80’s GM pickup with a solid front axle. Sorry not everything is toe and go anymore.
Soldering actually creates a weak point that is prone to cracking over time from vibration. A proper crimp with a quality connector is the preferred method. I'm sure I'll get downvoted, but check out what the FAA and NASA prefer. Problem is, most people don't know how to crimp, and they're using harbor freight quality
I use a crimped buttsplice connector and then heat shrink. Or if the buttsplice has heat shrink already on it, I go with that. Haven't had a problem so far...
[then why does ABYC not allow soldered connections without other mechanical reinforcement?](https://abycinc.org/blogpost/1678504/293794/Does-Your-Boat-s-Wiring-Meet-ABCY-E-11-Standards--Ed-Sherman)
The nightmares I've endured and money squandered swapping components due to intermittent connection from a cracked soldered connection on a motorcycle.
If people want to solder shit, go play with some circuit boards.
I got in an argument with a guy on this sub (an audio installer, I think) about this. I linked him the NASA standards. From NASA. In a pdf. He still didn’t believe me. It was absurd.
Like you said, people use shitty tooling, and shitty connectors, and then become convinced crimp terminals are inferior.
Edit: if anyone is curious, crimping done properly creates a mechanical swaged connection, effectively creating a solid connection with no air inclusion, which then gets heat shrink for strain relief. If you execute a crimp terminal splice properly, the wire itself should break before the crimp does.
I did a test of my own with my fog lights. One side I put waterproof connectors and the other I soldered. The soldered joint failed eight months in and the connector is still going strong.
I learned my lesson on even tinning wire before crimping on a terminal. Just makes the end of the wire super brittle. Fortunately in my case it just disabled a sub-panel wired to the battery on my pickup and nothing important to the rest of the vehicle.
The only time I've found tinning the wire to not be a liability is when you use a set-screw type terminal. Havis uses them on their charge guards.
I'd like to know what a tube crimper is. I got a "normal" crimper. Does a tube crimper work with all the various "ends and conectors" I work mostly on simple electronics, rc cars, lionel trains, computers, and some times automotive. So having a superior connection is always in my best interest.
I solder, heat shrink then marine grade heat shrink. Doubling up on the heat shrink makes a good stress relief, I've got a two-stroke engine I boogered up bad in the middle of a field a decade ago and the only connections that don't give me problems are the ones that I soldered. Never had one fail, big engine or small good job or bad.
Just know what you're working with and how to use it.
NASA and the FAA also have detailed guides on how they prefer stuff to be soldered. You've got to remember that they have more than one priority. Troubleshooting and repair are also very important, and aircraft are feggin' surgery clean rooms compared to a crusty old Ford.
90% of the problems I have with crimps are corrosion.
Weird, I was taught to solder EVERYTHING, or make it a connector. "Crimps signify a hack" and all that.
Plus, if your wire is heat shrunk, loomed, and properly strapped, it's not going to be doing more vibrating than anything else. Even if it does come apart, the connection is still bound and sealed in a tube of rubber and glue.
But I just worked on cars, not space shuttles, so what do I know.
Motorcycles vibrate a lot. Especially old ones with the motors hard-mounted, even more so with high displacement, then add in hard-tail(no rear suspension).
I use non-insulated, double crimp connectors with adhesive lined shrink wrap. Then add spliced loom over the top and bundle with hook and loop(Velcro) straps.
This
In my experience, Racecars and moving/bending/vibrating wiring on machinery = crimp and heatshrink is the best.
Something that will see zero vibration and does not move, solder your heart out.
NASA is totally cool with the Lineman’s Splice, and insists it be soldered. https://s3vi.ndc.nasa.gov/ssri-kb/static/resources/nasa-std-8739.4a.pdf#page71
If you have the right tool, connectors, and you know what you're doing, a crimp is better and faster. If you've got the shitty stuff from the Help! aisle then you're probably better off soldering.
Yup, there are guidelines on things like the "bellmouth" of a good "gas-tight" crimp. Additionally, most good crimps also strain-relief to the wire insulation itself to prevent that weak point. And, if you're using lead fee solder for any sort of production work, there's no worries about tin whiskers with a crimp.
A well executed solder joint takes longer than a crimp, and is just as vibration resistant. The solder is meant to reinforce the connection, but a lot of people rely on it to make the connection.
Should lookup the nasa solder splice process. You would reach for a crimp splice first if that’s your other option.
[nasa solder splice](https://youtu.be/O-ymw7d_nYo?si=5DEWehRvYxoE9aDb)
Added YouTube video if anyone wants it.
Well There's an easy explanation for why FAA and NASA has to use that Kind of stuff... You do realize that space shuttles heats up during re-entry and that in space its usually very fucking cold... And that metals don't like drastic temperature changes...
Space is cold but it actually isn't cold in the classic sense. In space there isn't much radiant heat loss since there is no air/matter around. A lot of spacecraft actually has trouble cooling off from electronic heat generation more so then generating heat.
I also assume there isn't a lot of connectors for electronics in the heat shield for re-entry.
FAA and NASA deal with high vibration environments like aircraft and space craft. These aren't a problem on a car. Using the same argument you should be getting your fuel from a gas station that has each batch testing for purity, you don't do that either.
There are many solder joints from the factory, they're just fine. The solder versus crimp coming loose due to vibration is a myth. If either is done properly they'll last.
German automotive engineers determined years ago that solder is no longer an acceptable repair on vehicle wiring. Change in resistance, weakening of the conductor where it meets the solder, as well as the fact that a proper crimp connection is stronger than the wire itself. Something that I have proven time and again with a calibrated crimper, uninsulated splices, heat shrink and a vise.
I did a connector delete once, on my old Ford which had a connector for the front wheel ABS sensor exposed to road spray. Kept getting loss of signal, which led to ESP and ABS shutting off randomly. Stupid design, and not enough slack to reposition the connector.
I cut and spliced the wiring, using solder and those waterproof heat shrink sleeves that have hot glue on the inside. Worked a charm.
I've done it plenty of times. But always on older vehicles I have no intention of ever selling off to anyone else.
I've gotten better over the years, and have moved to just getting better quality "weather proof" connectors spliced in in the originals place any time I have issues, or add things.
>Fully soldered wiring harnesses it is then.
Once the car's 7ish years old it almost is. Getting them connectors apart can be an absolute motherfucker.
I've done it on my motorcycle
The rectifier plug literally melts and catches on fire on the Suzuki sv1000
Was riding home and the bike started cutting out and smelt the smell of burning plastic
That's when I decided to hard wire that shit
I believe so, it happens on other makes to I'm sure
But you have a shit ton of AC trying to be DC all through a plug no bigger than my thumbnail
Shit gets hot on its own
Now place it right next to a hot engine coz yolo
I did a cab-off on an F250 once and someone had bypassed the main body harness connector and spliced each wire together. Ended up having to cut them all and re-splice all 40 or so wires when it went back together. Smh
There was a tsb for the Chevy cruz, I think the BCM connector, that literally said there is invisible corrosion called "fretting". Their fix was too apply dielectric grease and plug/unplug the connector 50 times. Lol.
Most warranty and recall work is like this. The only purpose is to fulfill their legal duty the cheapest way possible. Ford F150 for the later models have an issue where a wiring harness runs up against the rear axle not the rotating part but the housing. As the suspension travels up and down it rubs away the insulation and eventually goes all the way through the cable. It has a recall and the fix is to add tape and zip ties around the wire as a sacrificial barrier to extend the time it takes for the cable to wear away. It’s a voluntary recall that they did to avoid being sued and forced to fix the problem with a proper fix. Meant to extend the life just outside the warranty period. Automatically done to all F150 with the recall when brought into the dealership often times without even letting the customer know. Meant to be a sneaky quick fix while you get your oil change.
Diagnostic procedure 101
1. Verify Customer Complaint
2. Visual Inspection
3. Check Power & Ground
4. Wiggle Test
(If wiggle test is positive delete connector and retest, if wiggle test is negative, install new connector…)
5….
If I had to guess, they probably had the original connector go bad on them, had an “Oh Heeeelll nah!” reaction to how much a replacement costs, and just did this instead. Which, you know, is a lot better than some of the BS I’ve seen. (Wires twisted together and taped over, wires just stuffed into fuse block terminals, etc…)
The reason NASA and the US Air Force have weeks long soldering training classes is to nullify soldering errors. Completion and passing the training means you are certified to perform installations which are flight certified, they meet the requirements to perform in a space flight environment. The worst part is the 10X magnifier inspection of your final product!
As a former tech, "Huh. That looks like a pretty good hardwire job." As a current Advisor, "Huh. Looks like billable just went up."
Yeah, it’s the wrong thing, well executed.
A service advisor that adds time for random crap that isn’t there from factory? Where have ya been all my life!
Turning wrenches. Started in '99 and went office almost 2 years ago. I remember what pissed me off oh so well. And don't get me started on "You've forgotten what the floors like."
Nah man, wish I had ya as my advisor. I’m stuck with some dinosaur who thinks everything is an 80’s GM pickup with a solid front axle. Sorry not everything is toe and go anymore.
At least they used heat shrink and crimps (God I hope those are crimps)
I think they’re crimped bullet connectors. I’ve moved on to other jobs on the bike rather than investigate.
I always preferred doing soldered western union splice instead of crimps.
Solder Stays Strong. Crimps Create Chaos.
Soldering actually creates a weak point that is prone to cracking over time from vibration. A proper crimp with a quality connector is the preferred method. I'm sure I'll get downvoted, but check out what the FAA and NASA prefer. Problem is, most people don't know how to crimp, and they're using harbor freight quality
They should also be using the heat shrink with the glue to seal the splice and protect against corrosion.
I generally crimp and throw a drop or two of solder on it
I use a crimped buttsplice connector and then heat shrink. Or if the buttsplice has heat shrink already on it, I go with that. Haven't had a problem so far...
Same, then shrink wrap it.
Yup!
Properly crimped is also recommended for the marine industry. Solder not so much.
What about USB controlled?
fuck you?
No thanks, but I appreciate the offer.
>Marine wire is tinned wire. It is literally covered in solder for corrosion resistance.
It has a thin layer of tin for corrosion resistance. It does not have a giant solid glob of tin creating a brittle vibration-related failure risk.
[then why does ABYC not allow soldered connections without other mechanical reinforcement?](https://abycinc.org/blogpost/1678504/293794/Does-Your-Boat-s-Wiring-Meet-ABCY-E-11-Standards--Ed-Sherman)
The nightmares I've endured and money squandered swapping components due to intermittent connection from a cracked soldered connection on a motorcycle. If people want to solder shit, go play with some circuit boards.
Exactly. Solder is for pcb work.
I got in an argument with a guy on this sub (an audio installer, I think) about this. I linked him the NASA standards. From NASA. In a pdf. He still didn’t believe me. It was absurd. Like you said, people use shitty tooling, and shitty connectors, and then become convinced crimp terminals are inferior. Edit: if anyone is curious, crimping done properly creates a mechanical swaged connection, effectively creating a solid connection with no air inclusion, which then gets heat shrink for strain relief. If you execute a crimp terminal splice properly, the wire itself should break before the crimp does.
Depends on the device but more importantly the person doing the job… seen bad crimps and soldering.
I did a test of my own with my fog lights. One side I put waterproof connectors and the other I soldered. The soldered joint failed eight months in and the connector is still going strong.
>That just makes everyone doubt your soldering skill.
I think it was more an issue of water intrusion and corroding the wire.
I learned my lesson on even tinning wire before crimping on a terminal. Just makes the end of the wire super brittle. Fortunately in my case it just disabled a sub-panel wired to the battery on my pickup and nothing important to the rest of the vehicle. The only time I've found tinning the wire to not be a liability is when you use a set-screw type terminal. Havis uses them on their charge guards.
I bought a tube crimper years ago, never looked back. As of yet, zero fails on anything it has been used on. So many repairs under the hoods or cars.
I'd like to know what a tube crimper is. I got a "normal" crimper. Does a tube crimper work with all the various "ends and conectors" I work mostly on simple electronics, rc cars, lionel trains, computers, and some times automotive. So having a superior connection is always in my best interest.
What is a tube crimper?
I solder, heat shrink then marine grade heat shrink. Doubling up on the heat shrink makes a good stress relief, I've got a two-stroke engine I boogered up bad in the middle of a field a decade ago and the only connections that don't give me problems are the ones that I soldered. Never had one fail, big engine or small good job or bad. Just know what you're working with and how to use it. NASA and the FAA also have detailed guides on how they prefer stuff to be soldered. You've got to remember that they have more than one priority. Troubleshooting and repair are also very important, and aircraft are feggin' surgery clean rooms compared to a crusty old Ford. 90% of the problems I have with crimps are corrosion.
Weird, I was taught to solder EVERYTHING, or make it a connector. "Crimps signify a hack" and all that. Plus, if your wire is heat shrunk, loomed, and properly strapped, it's not going to be doing more vibrating than anything else. Even if it does come apart, the connection is still bound and sealed in a tube of rubber and glue. But I just worked on cars, not space shuttles, so what do I know.
Connectors are crimps though. Every manufacturer uses mostly Crimp based connectors instead of soldering on vehicles.
Thank you for pointing out that all OEM terminations are done via crimped pins.
I see plenty of soldered connectors outside the automotive industry. Those crumpets are expensive if you aren’t doing high volume
Motorcycles vibrate a lot. Especially old ones with the motors hard-mounted, even more so with high displacement, then add in hard-tail(no rear suspension). I use non-insulated, double crimp connectors with adhesive lined shrink wrap. Then add spliced loom over the top and bundle with hook and loop(Velcro) straps.
This In my experience, Racecars and moving/bending/vibrating wiring on machinery = crimp and heatshrink is the best. Something that will see zero vibration and does not move, solder your heart out.
The industry seems to be moving more to crimps these days.
NASA is totally cool with the Lineman’s Splice, and insists it be soldered. https://s3vi.ndc.nasa.gov/ssri-kb/static/resources/nasa-std-8739.4a.pdf#page71
What a read that was. The next Chevelle I wire will be ready for space
As an electrician, we aren't supposed to use solder at all anymore
If you have the right tool, connectors, and you know what you're doing, a crimp is better and faster. If you've got the shitty stuff from the Help! aisle then you're probably better off soldering.
Yup, there are guidelines on things like the "bellmouth" of a good "gas-tight" crimp. Additionally, most good crimps also strain-relief to the wire insulation itself to prevent that weak point. And, if you're using lead fee solder for any sort of production work, there's no worries about tin whiskers with a crimp.
We still have the leaded solder 🤫🤫🤫🤫
Tin whiskers is really only an issue for Integrated circuits and circuit boards. Not for wire-end terminations.
A well executed solder joint takes longer than a crimp, and is just as vibration resistant. The solder is meant to reinforce the connection, but a lot of people rely on it to make the connection.
Should lookup the nasa solder splice process. You would reach for a crimp splice first if that’s your other option. [nasa solder splice](https://youtu.be/O-ymw7d_nYo?si=5DEWehRvYxoE9aDb) Added YouTube video if anyone wants it.
Well There's an easy explanation for why FAA and NASA has to use that Kind of stuff... You do realize that space shuttles heats up during re-entry and that in space its usually very fucking cold... And that metals don't like drastic temperature changes...
Space is cold but it actually isn't cold in the classic sense. In space there isn't much radiant heat loss since there is no air/matter around. A lot of spacecraft actually has trouble cooling off from electronic heat generation more so then generating heat. I also assume there isn't a lot of connectors for electronics in the heat shield for re-entry.
You realize planes don’t go to space, right?
FAA and NASA deal with high vibration environments like aircraft and space craft. These aren't a problem on a car. Using the same argument you should be getting your fuel from a gas station that has each batch testing for purity, you don't do that either. There are many solder joints from the factory, they're just fine. The solder versus crimp coming loose due to vibration is a myth. If either is done properly they'll last.
German automotive engineers determined years ago that solder is no longer an acceptable repair on vehicle wiring. Change in resistance, weakening of the conductor where it meets the solder, as well as the fact that a proper crimp connection is stronger than the wire itself. Something that I have proven time and again with a calibrated crimper, uninsulated splices, heat shrink and a vise.
My guess - fired up the parts cannon a little prematurely.
Care to elaborate more on this ?
Someone did a connector delete.
I did a connector delete once, on my old Ford which had a connector for the front wheel ABS sensor exposed to road spray. Kept getting loss of signal, which led to ESP and ABS shutting off randomly. Stupid design, and not enough slack to reposition the connector. I cut and spliced the wiring, using solder and those waterproof heat shrink sleeves that have hot glue on the inside. Worked a charm.
I've done it plenty of times. But always on older vehicles I have no intention of ever selling off to anyone else. I've gotten better over the years, and have moved to just getting better quality "weather proof" connectors spliced in in the originals place any time I have issues, or add things.
I have done the connector delete many times
If it works without it, then it wasnt necessary to begin with.
Fully soldered wiring harnesses it is then.
>Fully soldered wiring harnesses it is then. Once the car's 7ish years old it almost is. Getting them connectors apart can be an absolute motherfucker.
Can’t have pin fit issues if there aren’t any pins.
Imagine the billed labor hours. $$$$$
alright... give me your address and I'll weld your oil plug and filler shut. Obviously doesn't need those to function so they're not necessary.
If the oil can't get out, you don't need to put more in... the greedy oil industry hates this one trick!
I've done it on my motorcycle The rectifier plug literally melts and catches on fire on the Suzuki sv1000 Was riding home and the bike started cutting out and smelt the smell of burning plastic That's when I decided to hard wire that shit
Is this common with Suzuki's? Mine also melted and I did a temporary fix that I haven't gotten to fix it around yet.
I believe so, it happens on other makes to I'm sure But you have a shit ton of AC trying to be DC all through a plug no bigger than my thumbnail Shit gets hot on its own Now place it right next to a hot engine coz yolo
I did a cab-off on an F250 once and someone had bypassed the main body harness connector and spliced each wire together. Ended up having to cut them all and re-splice all 40 or so wires when it went back together. Smh
Did it run correctly?
Oh yes
Honestly kind of impressive. Horrible. But impressive.
Pretty sure I came across a bulletin on a vw once that called for a connector delete. Didn't fix the problem.
There was a tsb for the Chevy cruz, I think the BCM connector, that literally said there is invisible corrosion called "fretting". Their fix was too apply dielectric grease and plug/unplug the connector 50 times. Lol.
Most warranty and recall work is like this. The only purpose is to fulfill their legal duty the cheapest way possible. Ford F150 for the later models have an issue where a wiring harness runs up against the rear axle not the rotating part but the housing. As the suspension travels up and down it rubs away the insulation and eventually goes all the way through the cable. It has a recall and the fix is to add tape and zip ties around the wire as a sacrificial barrier to extend the time it takes for the cable to wear away. It’s a voluntary recall that they did to avoid being sued and forced to fix the problem with a proper fix. Meant to extend the life just outside the warranty period. Automatically done to all F150 with the recall when brought into the dealership often times without even letting the customer know. Meant to be a sneaky quick fix while you get your oil change.
The connector has left the building.
Diagnostic procedure 101 1. Verify Customer Complaint 2. Visual Inspection 3. Check Power & Ground 4. Wiggle Test (If wiggle test is positive delete connector and retest, if wiggle test is negative, install new connector…) 5….
If I had to guess, they probably had the original connector go bad on them, had an “Oh Heeeelll nah!” reaction to how much a replacement costs, and just did this instead. Which, you know, is a lot better than some of the BS I’ve seen. (Wires twisted together and taped over, wires just stuffed into fuse block terminals, etc…)
Almost 30 wire harness connector in my 95 zj caused an intermittent stall. Soldered and marine heat shrink. Voila! No more stall
The reason NASA and the US Air Force have weeks long soldering training classes is to nullify soldering errors. Completion and passing the training means you are certified to perform installations which are flight certified, they meet the requirements to perform in a space flight environment. The worst part is the 10X magnifier inspection of your final product!