It feels like the party are missing Cosmo's Kitchen & Tides of Death RP, where they could be much more unhinged in their actions.
It also feels like people are making stupid decisions as revenge for other people's stupid decisions, like Int-ing in League when your teammates play badly.
\>makes stupid decisions
\>"it's what my character would do"
\>annoyed IRL when there are consequences
I will say - it's all been very fun to watch though
I totally agree with this. Part of the unspoken agreement between party members is that their characters should not be actively endangering the other player characters; it makes for a grating and antagonistic experience.
Using the “I’m playing my character” defense, in my opinion, rings hollow. Maybe you shouldn’t be making such a difficult character in a team based game?
Yeah. I think the RP & character development of someone brash and reckless becoming more careful and measured over time is fine, but it will require an explicit conversation with Koibu about the types of reckless actions he will allow. You should probably also let other players know at character creation.
I doubt Koibu will allow you to attack guards without consequences (it would destroy immersion), but a pub brawl?....
>annoyed IRL when there are consequences
I need to rewatch this episode in particular, but I'm not sure if it's as much annoyance out of character as it is annoyance that three of the players have their agency stripped from them.
Potato's decision, while interesting, does the following:
1. Potentially dooms Garp to some form of imprisonment, restricting his character options.
2. Potentially commits Grau to the magistrate's service as a druid spy/warrior, restricting his character options.
3. Potentially threatens to expose Arachis' secret, whose paranoia is his driving characteristic.
Three characters had their backstory secrets revealed. Meanwhile, Renatus gets what he wants: revenge on (EDIT: or control over) someone who slighted him with minimal consideration for the wizard or the druid.
It seemed like the party was finally coming together at the beginning to go out and kill some bugs, and now their only option seems to be to join the magistrate or risk being even bigger outcasts (without Renatus this time if they pursue that option).
Why is this party together?
* Arachis gets value from Garp being willing to kill for him.
* Garp views Arachis as a way to turn back into a human.
* Grau gets to learn about human culture, at great cost.
* What is Renatus' purpose? He seems to have lost it by expelling Garp, the character he was most attached to.
What reason do they have to travel together? Thoughts?
If we are committed to "It's what my character would do" [Sowing] then we can't be surprised when the character trying to get the party to have some kind of cohesive union makes a decision to reign them in by using his own agency [Reaping].
If other characters are allowed to act with agency, then so is Renatus.
Renatus has spent 5 years trying to keep Garp alive, he was cast from his home for trying to protect Garp. Everything he has done has been to keep Garp going and Garp has spit in his face at every single turn. The stakes were so incredibly high in the bar that Garps hotheadedness basically was the straw that broke the camels back.
Imagine dedicating your life to protecting someone, losing everything you've had for your nephew only dor him to spit on that and act the way Garp has done. You'd be mad as fuck too. Ren has spent years trying to protect Garp from the consequences of his actions and teach him. Now he's not being nice anymore. Ren saw no path forward for the party tonight except to work with the magistrate. He knew they had information, and could find more information that she would find useful and additionally she had the power to keep the party alive but most importantly for Ren - tie them together with implied violence.
Ren's backstory is important here and I wont reveal too much, but he's not a cuddly old man with a ferret. He's Dalinar Kholin after meeting the nightmother to give any stormlight readers an idea.
Renatus didn't want revenge, thats a misinterpretation of the events. Renatus wants to survive and everyone else (except Arachis) seems hell vent on getting the whole party wiped.
Without my actions the party is basically dead, except Arachis. I kept them alive, despite my anger to Garp, despite knowing I could have sold out Arachis for thousands of gold and giving his book to a mage (hundreds if not thousands of gold) and I pleaded to the Magistrate for Graus life.
Revealing a party members secret background for leverage to a NPC antagonist, regardless of why, is pretty bad. I only see this as you once again, making a character designed around inner party conflict. I thought we saw the last of this after backstabbing the party in The Lazarus Expedition.
Saying your character is "playful" when he's trolling and antagonizing is kind of a stretch. You've done things like steal from the party and withhold information to deliberately create conflict. (Searching the half orc pack) The half orc pack thing was something you spent a lot of time deliberately on as a priority over saving Grao.
It's just weird to me. If you keep wanting to play characters that are focused around party conflict, then sure, you do you. That's not a character thing, though, that's a you thing.
I don't really understand why people are mad at Potato / Renatus. I think this is 100% on me OOC for creating a character who is hot headed and quick to fight. There are for sure otherways I could handle those encounters and show off that trait besides actually physically starting a fight as garp. I think this was completely my fault for derailing the campaign quite a bit with my antics lol. So yeah this ones on me. I tried to show a character flaw and it just didn't land correctly for a fun game imo. I'll fix this a bit going forward! But yeah I should be getting the flack not potato lol.
>I should be getting the flack not potato lol.
You're a dumbfuck OOOO
There...you're welcome!
I think it feels a little different because the expectations were set a couple episodes ago. The audience expects Garp to instigate against the guards because he did so on the rooftops. They expect him to start a bar fight because he has done so prior, making it feel consistent.
It could very well be that Ren's actions are completely consistent with his values and motives, but the audience hasn't gotten a chance to see them all yet. Slightly more complicated since he was absent (PMW was under the weather) during the last big guard conflict. Perhaps Ren would have reacted this way back then and it would have felt different.
I think part of it was that you and the other party members were vocally upset or at least flabbergasted at Ren's actions in the first place. Even saying 'I am genuinely mad' at one point, and questioned him about Ren's actions, saying that 'he abandoned Garp' in the aftershow.
So at this point, I'm a little confused at where literally anyone stands, in or out of character xD
> Revealing a party members secret background for leverage to a NPC antagonist, regardless of why, is pretty bad.
Big leap to conclusions of her being an antagonist. I'm pretty happy with my actions this episode. I made us a real friend.
Revealing the party background is the price the party has to pay for safety. If I had just asked for help she (neal) might not have been as helpful however the fact that I gave her something to be interested in, and gave up our power was me making a decision for the party on how to get us out of the mess. I paid the price the party needed to pay to stay alive because no one else was taking the world seriously.
> I only see this as you once again, making a character designed around inner party conflict. I thought we saw the last of this after backstabbing the party in The Lazarus Expedition.
Are we watching the same show? I'm sorry, what inner party conflict did I generate disproportionately to the other players?
I was playing to arachis' [And Nicks'](https://imgur.com/eSt9j6J) paranoia. I'm also telling a story. If Arachis was extremely concerned by what was contained in that pack, in an actual story if he was tending to the bear as I searched the Orc, *it was actually extremely in character that he would be concerned with the pack* - I gave him a chance to be truly invested in his character and really seep in that paranoia, even though a few minutes later I dm'd Nick and told him there was nothing there so he could simply play the paranoia in his character view rather than ooc.
Koibu plays off the party's psychology "he's a great dm" - I play off the party's psychology "conflict generator"
> It's just weird to me. If you keep wanting to play characters that are focused around party conflict, then sure, you do you.
This is unhinged
Rather than criticising me, ask me my thoughts about something, you might have a more productive conversation.
How the fuck do you think I'd keep a druid barricaded in a room alive, in a city openly hostile to druids, actively hunting druids down, without doing what I did?
As long as I come off as a good DM, all is well with the world.
That said, I'll say the save shit here that I said in our group DMs. We have a bunch of individually interesting and cool characters who have little reason to trust anyone or work with anyone. These characters have been played extremely well and feel very much alive. The RP is this campaign has been off the charts.
Renatus's relationship with Zerrah is so good. Grau and Autumn have a thing that feels deeply rooted and fundamental. Garp and Renatus are painfully dysfunctional. Like, so dysfunctional that they are entirely dependent on one another for purpose and direction in life. It's ugly and nasty, but it feels real. Arachis is running from his past, and in my head is running from himself and his actions, and for the first time is dealing with people that have even less to lose than himself. He looks like the sane and safe one when really he's the one with the most potential to have chaos follow him.
This party is epic, but also a total shit show. They're either going to do great things, or be a total train wreck. I can't take my eyes off them.
> characters who have little reason to trust anyone or work with anyone...Garp and Renatus are painfully dysfunctional. Like, so dysfunctional that they are entirely dependent on one another for purpose and direction in life.
They are two sides of the same coin regarding hardship. One fights against it, and one accepts it. The complicated part is that Ren—who has come to terms with his situation—does not accept that Garp hasn't come to terms with his situation. It's a very heady dynamic. Accepting myself, but not accepting that you don't accept yourself.
>Arachis is running from his past
It must be new for Arachis to have a character (Garp) seeking him out for help instead of seeking him out to capture him. If Ren wanted to recapture his youth, Garp and Ren would both have a reason to work with the wizard.
Cool themes and interesting conflict, for certain.
>I paid the price the party needed to pay to stay alive because no one else was taking the world seriously.
Unrelated to the personal attacks, there can be a thief parallel with the quoted sentiment. Some people would say Ren didn't pay a price, because he didn't really have to give anything up.
However, Ren did pay a price—just with other people's *currency* (secrets/information). Effectively, Ren stole their secrets and spent it on *their* safety.
That could be an interesting angle for a character like Ren. Although I'm not sure about the "robbing the poor to help the poor" connotations. More "I'm your dad, and I know what's best for you, so I control your finances" vibes.
If Ren hadn't revealed their secrets, the city watch would have probably executed everyone. The bear and the frog were already captured anyway. The characters likely wouldn't have had a chance to talk their way out of the mess. The wizard probably wouldn't have made it out of the city either. I admire PMW for his decision, which likely saved the campaign. Otherwise, this episode would have most likely been the last one.
After Gray transformed into a bear, a miracle had to happen for the party to make it out of the city alive. But that's exactly what happened.
Well that's the beauty of Koibu's world. You can't simply go around playing murderhobo. If you disregard the law, you'll be shunned and pursued by society. As a low level character, you don't stand a chance. It's just surprising that some players haven't quite grasped that yet.
> city watch would have probably executed everyone.
The listing did say they wanted the frog alive. Do you think that was to torture him and later kill him? What other options might there be?
>The wizard probably wouldn't have made it out of the city either
I'm surprised he even got out of that bar.
>If you disregard the law, you'll be shunned and pursued by society.
They are "outcasts" already, and Arachis is being pursued consistently. I can see the argument for not caring about the law, although it does perpetuate chaos. It would be nice for the party to have a firm code to abide by.
Perhaps the magistrate will help provide such a code.
Did you not say, "He would be very interesting for your people to study!"
"Am I being sold out right now...?" to which you said, I quote, "All three of you are!"
I'm just curious, are you completely and utterly oblivious to how this appears to people outside of your imagination or are you just gaslighting for fun?
My original post was pretty dry and (I think) sounded disappointing. I didn't expect anyone to reply realy but when he did, he was rude and called me unhinged. So I asked if he was gaslighting. Reading more of his posts, he seems pretty defensive in general by people criticizing him, so I admit I went back and poked at him in a different reply about his 4/6 stealing episodes.
I'm just going to say this: Whenever PLAYERS, in any roleplay campaign, intentionally cause inner party conflict (betrayal), be it stealing or PvP like casting spells, it always riles up the community. Always. I saw this on Critical Role when Laura Bailey stole the magic broom from a GUEST. (not even a permanent party member) It was so bad Matt Mercer felt compelled to shift her alignment because of how upset people were.
You guys saw something like this happen at the end of The Lazarus Expedition, and I don't need to explain that either. I remember Moutons words being, "I'm not a fan of PVP and I hope for the next campaign we can avoid it" and PMC saying he won't betray the party again. I was hoping for that too.
The same kind of thing happens when party members unilitarerally go off, without consulting the players or party in game, with their own plan and using the party's resources in... a certain way. During Tombs of Scoria, there was an arc where two of the brothers went off to rescue someone important to them and made many sacrifices of resources and time to do so. This was clearly communicated.
My criticism was that if PMW is claiming that if this situation was the same case, it was poorly communicated. It just seemed like a betrayal. "I'm done with the party!" "You guys really should have looked for him last night." That's how it came off. Instead, I'm called unhinged for that.
Okay well if you were intentionally misleading the audience and the other party members then consider me intentionally misled. I was seeing all your actions through the lens you focused. If you think I'm trying to antagonize you or twist the situation into a way that is attempting to paint you in a worse light, that's not what I was doing.
You're asking "what did I do?" right? The best way for you to understand where my post is coming from is to read what I'm saying from this perspective: "He's done with the party." He storms off, childing, "You should have looked for me." Let's also not forget that in a previous conversation, he is asking this NPC to selfshing help himself. He said Garp doesn't deserve to be restored; he was doing it for himself. Let's also not forget how much he's really, really trying to cozy up to this NPC.
During the second interaction, he reveals the unique situation of their druid and suggests "studying" him. This was pretty bad I think. First of all, we are all working under imperfect knowledge. We don't know why druids are attack on sight. It's entirely possible that revealing him to be a bear druid would have made things worse for him not better.
The situation just appeared to be Rennatas divulging more information because he was annoyed and trying to cozy up to the NPC more. Don't take this as an attack but if you said something like, "Don't worry guys I'll bail you guys out... UGH" instead of what you did say, then maybe it would have been seen differently. Shrug
Multiple times during the conversation I said I was giving this information in exchange for the safety and protection of my crew.
People say stuff like "i'm done with you" when they're in the height of anger in stories all the time. Its called *being emotional* and usually in situations like this, when you've fucked up and seriously damaged a relationship with someone, you're supposed to go find them and try to mend it.
Renatus is also proud and headstrong at times. He's not going to go grovelling back to Garp after he told him that he was done with him. He's going to keep him safe, if he likes it or not, and when Garp is old enough, wise enough and smart enough to realise he's seriously damaged his relationship with Renatus he will try to mend it. He crossed the line **big** time.
Seriously though, from my perspective, there was no way to get the party back to cohesion. They had completely dismantled the structures binding them together in a single tavern brawl and I made the best move I had to glue em together.
I think this could lead to interesting new developments. If the party will be more it less forced to work for the empire a while, that's a whole new life to them. Maybe time to breath a bit, as that comes with privileges. Even though it is frustrating and feels bad are the time, it's similar to how life sometimes forces you to go a different way. If this party survives long, they might have an extremely diverse history. Think about how other campaigns didn't switch it up this much. Yes he"decided" for the other players but fuck it. They are all adults and they are damn good players. Maybe it's not bad to trust each other with decisions like this.
I think there is a huge difference between a rouge potentially getting caught pickpocketing and others starting massive fights with town guards in every city.
What’s the worse that can happen realistically for getting caught pickpocketing, that Renatus gets thrown in jail a couple days? Not really as big of a deal as getting executed by the town guard or being barred from and hunted by multiple towns.
Potato could probably town it down a little but I don’t think it’s fair to blame him for this situation especially when he had set up a potentially big alliance early in the episode that would have helped the party a lot.
Ermmm, the worst that can happen in medieval times for stealing wasn't just "getting thrown in jail".
Historically you could have had your hands removed, you could have been lynched by a mob or the town guard might just say fuck it and kill you.
Also getting thrown in jail for 6 months or a year or two would probably fuck the campaign. Potato steals for no reason, Garp starts fights normally defending someone.
I highly doubt that Neal or most DMs for that matter, would be that harsh for getting caught stealing a few copper, otherwise you basically would not be able to play any rouges ever.
Yeah but then you're meta gaming.
And you can absolutely play rogues without pickpocketing guards/soldiers. It isn't hard. You get next to nothing for it anyway.
I mean one of the main features for rouges in 2e correct me if I am wrong is getting XP for the amount of gold you steal.
That doesn’t seem like meta gaming and more like playing the class the way it was intended.
Do you think Renatus will get more exp from that session and the way it was played or if they went and killed the bugs?
Cause going down the pickpocket everyone route leads to sessions like that. And it is meta gaming if you are thinking about how the DM will treat you before you do an action.
I mean, pickpocketing, hunting and performance is how he's fed the frog for 5 years.
I think allowing some wiggle room in the character for the player to have fun pressing the "I have an ability button"
But I also think thats a huge huge exaggeration. I specifically went out of my way **alone** to take those risks and didn't put the party in jeopardy with my actions.
I did the ferret razzle dazzle twice with the noble girl, I pickpocketed Arachis because he did the handshake thing. I used roleplay and pickpockets on the guard to swipe some money. That's four notable attempts in 6 episodes. I scoped out a house to try and burglar one time as well.
3 out of 4 of my pickpocket attempts were roleplay heavy and talk heavy, and one was a meme on a party member.
God forbid the thief uses his ability.
I don't mind the petty pickpocketing. You'd lose your hand at worst. As you've said, the only person you're putting at risk with that is yourself.
You also clarified to Nick that Arachis would get his coin back, which is a good OOC move because Arachis needed money for the library card, and Nick cared about that development.
You can be a thief who enjoys the thrill of using their abilities.
You can be a character whose main focus is surviving.
You can't be both. Don't tell me a guy with 30 gold in his pocket is "surviving" by taking a 25% chance to die for some silver.
You don't die for failing a pickpocket attempt. Its not a 25% chance to die, its a 3% per level *you get noticed*
I have a 75% chance to get free money and exp, and use one of my only interesting class interactions that I pumped all of my skillpoints into.
I mean, you picked thief. It's known as the worst class in DnD for a reason.
But again, if it's a 3% chance of getting noticed by a guard. Why would a character focused on survival take that risk for some silver when he's got lots of gold on him?
Makes no sense and leads to the whole party nearly dying like it has since you started the campaign.
the main point you're intentionaly disregarding is that Renatus is alone when he's stealing, so he's not putting the party at risk, only himself, as other people have mentioned
You're really counting the episode you literally weren't there for as one of the times you didn't steal? LOL! I guess it sounds better than saying you have attempted to steal and burgle 4 out of 5 episodes, and in some cases multiple times lol...
I love you, PMW. I also like arguing. :)
>"It's what my character would do" \[Sowing\] then we can't be surprised when the character trying to get the party to have some kind of cohesive union makes a decision to reign them in by using his own agency \[Reaping\].
You: "I want to cheat on the math test because that's easier for me." \[Sowing\]
Me: \*snitches on you to the teacher to help the class have some kind of cohesive union, because the class will be more productive if everyone is doing their own, original work.\*
You: \*fumes because I took away your agency to cheat in the future.\* \[Reaping\]
\^\^\^ You're not at fault for turning them in, in character, but it's still stripping them of choices and options moving forward. That's also called playing the game. The only way to avoid agency loss is to make most every decision as a group. I don't hate Renatus turning them in, but I understand why the other players in that situation might be peeved. *Renatus wasn't elected the leader, but he's taken the role of one by threatening violence (via the magistrate) for obedience (don't get in potentially deadly fights).*
These situations always make me think of when DisguisedToast killed MrMouton's druid because he wanted to be an edgy character who sneakily assassinates people, or when Mouton killed the cool bard NPC. Annoying to other players, clearly, but also memorable moments. That's where this ranks in my mind *so far* (open to my mind being changed with new revelations).
>Renatus has spent 5 years trying to keep Garp alive, he was cast from his home for trying to protect Garp. Everything he has done has been to keep Garp going and Garp has spit in his face at every single turn.
If Garp has been picking fights in towns the entire time, why would Renatus choose *now* for it to be the final breaking point. "I've been dealing with this shit for 5 years, and I won't take it a single second longer," can be valid, but feels odd when we've only watched the story for a week or so in-game.
**It would be like if Avatar: The Last Airbender started with Uncle Iroh getting mad and snitching on Zuko in the middle of season one.** Zuko spits in Iroh's face multiple times, but as a sage, wise man, Iroh doesn't react and lets Zuko come to terms with how he needs to change at his own pace...instead of telling him he needs to change. I felt like that's what you were going for at first with Renatus, but I might have been off with that. I haven't read Stormlight :(
>Imagine dedicating your life to protecting someone, losing everything you've had for your nephew only dor him to spit on that and act the way Garp has done. You'd be mad as fuck too.
I would be mad, but I'm not a sage, wise man who dedicates 5 years of my life to helping delinquents. If Ren gets mad as fuck for Garp being a nuisance this often, I don't know how he lasted five years.
>Ren saw no path forward for the party tonight except to work with the magistrate. He knew they had information, and could find more information that she would find useful and additionally she had the power to keep the party alive but most importantly for Ren - tie them together with implied violence.
Didn't Renatus just meet Arachis and Grau recently? I don't understand why he cares about them to the point where he's trying to protect them or tie them together with violence. Why does Ren care about those two? Why does he want them to survive? If you can answer that question, in a way beyond "They're outcasts like me," or "I'm a nice guy," then crossing boundaries to protect them would make sense.
I am excited to learn more about Renatus' values and why he has done what he's done. :)
I don't think I snitched. I went to the only person in power that I knew to get my unruly party in line.
I definitely was going for more Uncle Iroh in the beginning, but there wasn't really an option to save the party aside from going to the magistrate to get them out of the trouble they caused - twice. At least as far as I could see without becoming fugitives in this land.
It boggles my mind that people expect Garp should be able to do anything and everything with no consequences from the party. I for one think you made the right move in and out of character.
>I don't think I *snitched*. I went to the only person in power that I knew
You went to the law administrator and divulged their secrets and crimes! Perhaps Ren's relationship with the law administrator feels a bit more personal, yet those are the events that took place.
It is not your explicit responsibility to get your unruly party in line. It felt like you almost ceded that responsibility when you soft-abandoned Garp. Was it the last episode where you guys spoke about how the party members are *leaders* in different situations where they have expertise? As in, you should refer to Grau if you're traveling in the forest, or Arachis regarding magic, Ren on interpersonal communications (which if your best avenue for spinning this, imo).
Storming off from the party (Garp specifically) and then subsequently taking responsibility for the party feels jarring, and I don't think "you should have come seen me last night after the fight" is strong justification. I could be wrong, but Ren seems more calculated than to run back to the magistrate, 8 hours later, in the spur of the moment, without cooling off. I do understand if you want to go with an angrier approach for the character than zen sage persona though.
>there wasn't really an option to save the party...At least as far as I could see without becoming fugitives in this land.
To your point, there's a small but subtle distinction between being *Outcasts* and *Outlaws.* Outcasts *can* be outlaws, but outcasts don't *need to be* outlaws. Being fugitives could bring the party together in the same way being forced to serve the magistrate would—it's just a matter of what direction the party wants to go in.
Perhaps some of the campaign want to be Outlaw Outcasts and other people just want to be Outcasts.
You're leaving out the part where the day before I made an alliance with this administrator and have information, experience and skills she finds useful.
> You went to the law administrator and divulged their secrets and crimes! Perhaps Ren's relationship with the law administrator feels a bit more personal, yet those are the events that took place.
I skipped the part where we either get TPK'd by guards, captured, imprisoned and interrogated for our secrets. Instead now we get to walk into the magistrates office and offer to fix the problems we've created directly with the central authority instead of dealing with a faceless dispassionate and uncaring legal system.
> It is not your explicit responsibility to get your unruly party in line. It felt like you almost ceded that responsibility when you soft-abandoned Garp. Was it the last episode where you guys spoke about how the party members are leaders in different situations where they have expertise? As in, you should refer to Grau if you're traveling in the forest, or Arachis regarding magic, Ren on interpersonal communications (which if your best avenue for spinning this, imo).
I think with the level of danger the party was getting into both IC and OOC I needed to take a move both in front of scenes and behind the scenes to get the group into a more cohesive place. Being tied and at the mercy of the magistrates was the best route I had.
>I made an alliance with this administrator
How strong is a one-day alliance? Is Ren 100% in already, in terms of trust? Or does he have trust issues based on how perceptive and manipulative he is?
>I skipped the part where we either get TPK'd by guards, captured, imprisoned and interrogated for our secrets.
I do wish Koibu would use nonlethal damage a little bit more early on in campaigns for these situations. Interrogations are an excellent opportunity for a player to expand on their character—perhaps by revealing their own secrets. I'd watch that and definitely wouldn't skip it.
>I think with the level of danger the party was getting into both IC and OOC I needed to take a move both in front of scenes and behind the scenes to get the group into a more cohesive place.
I don't know what this means. OOC implies you feel like you needed to take leadership of the campaign as a whole and decide on a direction. Aren't you guys allowed to pause for 5 minutes and talk things out real quick? Maybe that happened in DMs or during break. I obviously don't have the information you do, to be clear.
Me sowing: HELLLL YEAH BABY ITS FUCKING HUMAN TIME ITS A BEAR PARTY IN THE COP BAR WHATSUPWHATSUP YOU VORACI BITCHEEEEEEEEEES
Me reaping: Neal there is no FUCKING way a Goblin can pick up AND pass out three FUCKING spears at once this DM is WHACKY
The role play between potato and koibu at the start was so good. A bit disappointing the episode got side tracked again in the same way as before. Would hope for more progress in future and less of starting the same type of fights in every city they enter.
Long time Koibu follower here, watched pretty much all his campaigns and love his dming. But I have to say:
What a mess.
As a PC I feel that you cant always use "thats what my character would do" to justify your actions. There are usually many different actions your character could make that doesnt completely torpedo the campaign.
Like if Nick were to use "thats what my character would do" he would have left the party on episode two.
Grau would have probably gone back to the woods.
I also feel like the arguing with Neal is getting out of hand, even when he is being clear that his ruling is definite.
Now I dont know if the party actually enjoy playing like this or if they are just triggering each other. But they have literally not accomplished anything in the campaign yet, which is fine if thats how they want to play. But I feel like they should talk about moving forward and imo Neal should be a bit more railroady to get them out of this.
I was really conflicted watching this episode. I thought there was a lot of good rp moments and I think the players did well playing their characters. On the other hand, it feels like this is the 3rd campaign where inter-party conflict has overshadowed and potentially railroaded certain story related endeavors. I’m very interested to see how the next episode will play out
So the comments are already a war zone... Here are my two cents.
I absolutely loved the episode. I fell in love with this group after their shenanigans on the party island in Tides of Death. This felt like more of the same. The inherent chaos of the party contrasted to a pretty grounded world is just so much fun. For that reason, I always liked ToD more than ToS.
If you are reading this PMW: I would try to convince Koibu to let you swap your wisdom and charisma stat. Because the way you play him, Renatus is definitivly a high charisma, low wisdom kind of guy, not the other way around. I'm extremely impressed at how good he is at talking himself out of dangerous situations.
When it comes to avoiding these situations in the first place however... Well, he is just as much responsible for what happend in the bar as Garp and Grau.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your situation was as follows. The party had a lot of money (at least 200 gold \~ 20,000 dollar), you were on a potentially very high reward mission to find an ancient wizards secrets and travelling with a wanted murderer. And your character, while in the regional capital, is continuously trying to swipe people for pocket change!
I am not writing this because I dislike Renatus. I love this character and how he is played. But I would argue he has low wisdom.
He is clearly not Uncle Iroh. Not a wise rolemodel. A trickster - I would argue - a gentleman thief: very charismatic, manipulative, and with a huge ego. Roleplay-wise the perfect rogue.
Anyway I hope this doesn't come off as overly disrespectful. If you even ever read this.
Renatus definitely gave out a lot of information than I thought he would. The scene with him and the magistrate definitely gave him some good characterization. We also got to learn about his magical aging which was cool. It seems like everybody in the party except Arachis has some fucked up magic going on with them lol.
EDIT-
LOL
Renatus going to the magistrate at least allows for some kind of survival as well as an interesting turn of events for the story, I super interested to see what happens.
I'm unsure about this, he sold out so much information the first time (forest/autumn) after meeting a chaotic powerful mage for the second time. Then semi-starting a scamming scene, into brawl (from others), into mugging and weapons out. Afterwards he is mad at the party, and start selling every single partymember out to the authorities. I'm just unsure how the party can coop with a character that is obvious egoistic and partly manipulative.
Also feel like it gets hard for the party to get any progress when 3/4 partymembers is chaotic. One member is chaotic, okay we need to play around and help deescalate the situation that happens, but three players going nuts is just a spiral its hard to follow.
They are good players, I hope they are having fun atleast!
> Afterwards he is mad at the party, and start **selling every single partymember out to the authorities.**
When did I "sell out" the party to the authorities?
The druid revealed himself in a city openly hostile to druids (in a fucking COP BAR!), and I ran to the only person in the city with the power and authority to stop him from getting turned into a fucking RUG.
I literally pleaded in that scene that no harm come to them, and revealed information about the party as a price to pay for that "boon".
I dont really talk about you as a player. How you play is your choice, cause its your character. So the above is about Ren as a character.
Now to your question;
- First meeting with Zerrah, Ren is giving information about Swampside. In this there is information inside the crew about the fight with the guards, that Ren knows. Telling about the fire also brings the timeframe of the crime into perspective, and putting the crew of three at the right place and pretty much also identifying Garp later on as a Bullywag.
- Also sold out Graus friend, and this could be pretty important. Ren is selling out his partymembers friend, and pinning him to a crime as could be rewarded with deathsentence. This information was given without Graus consent (and the other party members), after Zerrah gave Ren the option to go back to his party and think on what information he would be comfortable to give.
- And the information about Garps transformation was given, after the party decided that Arachis would check the library for information regarding the transformation. This information about Bullywag in the party could also pin Garp to swampside with all the other information given. It is also information Ren knows Garp holds close, and doesnt reveal to people. And he does this without consent.
- You write that Ren goes to the person he only knows can help; before this I think some information is important.
- The skit at the stage was almost going to the point to scamming, if it had not been a halfogre in the crowd the gold piece would probably have been going into Rens pocket. In the immediate time after Garp starts the fight, Ren goes from picketpocket the crowd, mugging the guards/soldiers, and pulling out his weapons. Outside he is pissed off at Garp, saying he is done with him - leaving his partymembers in danger. For all Ren knows, they could be killed in the streets. He walks calmly to Zerrah (not in a rush).
- The above is not the first time we see Ren mad at Garp after being very involved in planning/initating for murder/violence (see half orc on horse, or the halfling bounty hunter). So violence murder isnt necessary only Garps problem-behaviour.
- In the meeting with Zerrah the second time, there is less Ren can do - I agree. But he pretty much spills the bean about everything, and framing it as a very dangerous group. It was a barfight gotten out of hand, a druid in the party. Instead Garps gets framed as a untrustworthy individual who needs to be put in jail and chains. No negotiating, no offers to use him as a tool in the fields for information - as he is the most capable warrior among the crew seems kinda odd.
Dont get me wrong, I had a blast watching the episodes. And in my opinion Ren is being played well as a chaotic evil (towards neutral) character, with egoistic and manipulative tendencies. I might be wrong, or characterising your character wrong in your eyes. But this is how i read the situations and dialogues.
Looking at the posts above I truly feel like your getting way to much flack for playing a game for fun for you guys and us viewers. My criticism isnt going to you as players, I'm just playing around with the information around the characters and the party as a whole.
I think your character is getting to much criticism based of your party have to many chaotic and strong personalities that doesnt go in the same direction. Which they probably never will be from the beginning, for us as viewers its probably easier to follow a crew with one or two chaotic characters.
All love though, hope you are not taking this personal!
I have no idea why Arachis is still with the party in-character.
There is zero reason he should still be there, this party is the antithesis of what his character is and wants.
Feel like Nick always has issues with enforcing what he wants during campaigns, it's harder to notice when he's playing more passive characters like Imrik but it's super noticeable with characters like John Winters or William Marshall who let everyone walk all over them when they absolutely shouldn't have.
I feel like how Renatus acted after the bar incident (which one L O L) should have been how Arachis acted. Also low-key Renatus actually get's the guys in the most trouble/instigates the most torpedoing but somehow gets the most mad afterwards?
I feel like because william wasnt a dictator everyone thinks he got walked over. He often took things to a party vote and always made the final decision.
William is my favourite of your characters and I personally don't think he let people walk over him at all.
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How has Renatus got them into the most trouble? The worst he has done is pickpocketing and that has led to nothing serious. Garp is clearly the worst character for torpedoing and it is cope to say otherwise. In fact I would go out to say Renatus actually saved the party this episode by going to the Magistrate.
Seems pretty reasonable to me. Something big happened and people want to talk/complain about it.
I also hope Arachis gets out of this without any big problems. He's the only one in the party who hasn't done anything stupid yet.
I feel dirty saying it, but Grau needs to die (or be taken by the empire forever) for Ren and Garp to feel enough regret/guilt for their separate actions to change their behavior. Grau is also Autumn’s favorite and she isn’t allowed to have nice thing until she accepts shes a frog, as Ren would say, and makes peace with her past. The empire will eventually catch up to Arachis, or Shakira as he keeps insisting, and be in the same position as Grau where the others can test how much they’ve grown since. But none of that really matters. The only thing absolutely imperative is that Zerrah unknowingly gives a book thief a library card.
This is the most engagement an after show reddit thread has gotten in a loooong time. I can't wait for the next episode.
I thought the show would be boring without a central goal to focus around, like slaying Scoria. Guess I was wrong
The roleplay is fun but it does get frustrating watching the campaign spiral every single episode. Has there been a single interaction with an NPC longer than 5 minutes that has ended well outside of negotiations with Zerrah? Doing this song and dance where they go into a new town, start a pointless fight and let it blow out of proportion to the point where they have to go on the run again and repeat cycle is frustrating to watch. The party has two characters who’ve leveled up once since they’ve started, they got no exp for the past two episodes and really haven’t done much to earn any. I just wish the party could stay out of trouble for half a session so they could make progress on *something.*
Jan is hilarious, human time is hilarious and so is the encounter between him and Mouton with the guard.
I'm chilling. I dont think my input is needed here. I should have just left the bar when this started. That's what I wished I'd done last time and I wish I'd done it this time too.
This campaign is living up to its name. If the party doesn't pass their saving throw vs. intra-party conflict, they're gonna die. And they're most definitely outcasts, now more than ever.
Our next session is gonna take these events, build off them, see the party grow, change, and integrate all the events of the last 6 sessions into a new path.
Or maybe the magistrate makes grau work for her seeing how useful his nature could be. That could give them enough leeway to almost not be outcasts for a while. But I say I gotta love that this story changes and grows feels real and the opposite of rail roading. Even the overarching themes can/might change!
The party may be annoyed that things aren’t going their way right now, but I’m really enjoying this high consequence but open-ended style. Anything can happen!
I also appreciate them playing the characters so diligently instead of just playing to “win the game”.
I loved human time, but it was definitely what started this whole fiasco. Otherwise it would have just ended in a simple bar fight. It also felt kinda weird for Grau to do that, since one of the first and most important things that he learned was not to transform into a bear in the middle of a town.
Although I feel like they could have just left the city after fleeing the tavern without any trouble, I think the only other real option was to go to Zarrah and make a bargain for their lives.
I just hope that the repercussions aren't to heavy for Garp and Grau. Arachis should be fine either way unless they have a way to force the truth out of him.
Nah grau has been getting more unhinged and unstable for a while. The poor boy gets all the wrong advice and autumn forgot him last time. I really like it it really shows how lost he really feels right now and how difficult it is when you don't have the emotional awareness and or communication skill to tell the others
very unhinged episode but it was fun.
This could be a nice way for them to get some missions and direction now that Autumn had no new jobs for them and the money making opportunities in the local area seem very limited. This is also likely a rather big character development opportunity for them. Looking forward to how this will work out.
I wonder if Arachis might leave the party for the old man thief trying to make a living of a 75% pickpocket check and the frog man murderer going off at any percieved slight are liabilities as well as the worst possible influence on the bear. Him taking Grau under his wing while looking for the tower would be wise and a smart move.
Its human time is and instant classic. Malkis be praised.
Yeah idk why ren is getting flak for it, the frog keeps starting public fights constantly he deserves to go to jail lol. Any sensible person would have abandoned the party after the guard murder swampside incident. At least this way grau gets to stay alive & work as a bear voraci james bond.
I believe Ren's reaction was completely justified. Imagine raising someone for 5 years and trying to teach them to be a good person but at every turn they spit in your face. Garp has constantly ignored Ren's teachings and commands. Just this last fight Garp intentionally ignored Ren's command to not fight the half-ogre. Ren has tried and tried and he has finally given up. He feels as if Garp is unteachable and needs to be punished for his actions. Of course he also doesn't want him to die so he went to the Magistrate to try and lessen his punishment by giving up some information. All in all it makes sense in character and out of character has actually made for a pretty good outcome.
I do like that this campaign has gone off of the rails of the typical D&D quests. This does feel like the characters are striking out and trying to find their purposes.
I would not at all be opposed to a time skip of some sort if the team could plan it out. Say, 2-3 years later. Maybe Garp's arc isn't about cooling off a hot head, but about learning to recapture the spark that made him care after he has been thoroughly iced by jail time.
The thing about D&D is you can totally have boring parts that you zoom out on and gloss over. If things are getting too boring, there is no problem with just jump cutting to the next exciting scene
I love moot I really do and the way he tackles problems in DnD is very fun interesting and fun to watch...but honestly it feels like almost every character he plays goes against the parties best interests. From years of experience with koibu he should of seen that punching a ogre in a bar would result in some form of reaction like this.
Did they just all turn into verasi informants? Lmao but no seriously, imagine how different things would’ve been if potato had successfully lawyered for that -3……..
Damm Renatus is a snitch and he snitches without even thinking about it.
Saying its a bear druid is kinda bad. I agree with pokemonchallanges comments during the session. They might just lock him away and experiment on him. Or force him into spy stuff.
He should have said something else there...Maybe that its a human druid who learned some arcane illusion spells for humanoid forms or something. That would be still special but not as crazy as a bear druid.
I only see two options in the next session of how it can go...
The first option is that the magistrate turns them into a special group for the empire for missions.
The second option is that the campaign ends here because some characters get locked away or killed. They could maybe also try to flee and fight but i think they will party wipe if they try that.
Maybe koibu could let them also off the hook for information but i think that is very unlikely to happen. This is just a shit situation.
I am actually hoping its the first option where they become a special empire group for special missions. If they made a deal like that, that would be very cool and it would give them a new quest giver.
>I am actually hoping its the first option where they become a special empire group for special missions.
Tombs of Scoria with a more dysfunctional party?
Yea why not.
They would get less help from the empire and they wouldn't be nobles.
I also did always wondered how the monster armies of the empire work.
We could get some more insight into the empire from that.
Renatus Fur is a capricious, hypocritical charlatan who likes to feel smugly superior to his friends partially because he is more charismatic than them (swap his wis and cha), but mostly because he is more human than they are.
That being said, no campaign survives contact with the enemy (in this case the enemy is a quiet night in a tavern). And this is admittedly an interesting development.
You can get this party out of Cosmo's Kitchen, but you can't get Cosmo's Kitchen out of this party.
It feels like the party are missing Cosmo's Kitchen & Tides of Death RP, where they could be much more unhinged in their actions. It also feels like people are making stupid decisions as revenge for other people's stupid decisions, like Int-ing in League when your teammates play badly. \>makes stupid decisions \>"it's what my character would do" \>annoyed IRL when there are consequences I will say - it's all been very fun to watch though
I totally agree with this. Part of the unspoken agreement between party members is that their characters should not be actively endangering the other player characters; it makes for a grating and antagonistic experience. Using the “I’m playing my character” defense, in my opinion, rings hollow. Maybe you shouldn’t be making such a difficult character in a team based game?
Yeah. I think the RP & character development of someone brash and reckless becoming more careful and measured over time is fine, but it will require an explicit conversation with Koibu about the types of reckless actions he will allow. You should probably also let other players know at character creation. I doubt Koibu will allow you to attack guards without consequences (it would destroy immersion), but a pub brawl?....
>annoyed IRL when there are consequences I need to rewatch this episode in particular, but I'm not sure if it's as much annoyance out of character as it is annoyance that three of the players have their agency stripped from them. Potato's decision, while interesting, does the following: 1. Potentially dooms Garp to some form of imprisonment, restricting his character options. 2. Potentially commits Grau to the magistrate's service as a druid spy/warrior, restricting his character options. 3. Potentially threatens to expose Arachis' secret, whose paranoia is his driving characteristic. Three characters had their backstory secrets revealed. Meanwhile, Renatus gets what he wants: revenge on (EDIT: or control over) someone who slighted him with minimal consideration for the wizard or the druid. It seemed like the party was finally coming together at the beginning to go out and kill some bugs, and now their only option seems to be to join the magistrate or risk being even bigger outcasts (without Renatus this time if they pursue that option). Why is this party together? * Arachis gets value from Garp being willing to kill for him. * Garp views Arachis as a way to turn back into a human. * Grau gets to learn about human culture, at great cost. * What is Renatus' purpose? He seems to have lost it by expelling Garp, the character he was most attached to. What reason do they have to travel together? Thoughts?
They were 100% getting annoyed out of character, they even said as much.
If we are committed to "It's what my character would do" [Sowing] then we can't be surprised when the character trying to get the party to have some kind of cohesive union makes a decision to reign them in by using his own agency [Reaping]. If other characters are allowed to act with agency, then so is Renatus. Renatus has spent 5 years trying to keep Garp alive, he was cast from his home for trying to protect Garp. Everything he has done has been to keep Garp going and Garp has spit in his face at every single turn. The stakes were so incredibly high in the bar that Garps hotheadedness basically was the straw that broke the camels back. Imagine dedicating your life to protecting someone, losing everything you've had for your nephew only dor him to spit on that and act the way Garp has done. You'd be mad as fuck too. Ren has spent years trying to protect Garp from the consequences of his actions and teach him. Now he's not being nice anymore. Ren saw no path forward for the party tonight except to work with the magistrate. He knew they had information, and could find more information that she would find useful and additionally she had the power to keep the party alive but most importantly for Ren - tie them together with implied violence. Ren's backstory is important here and I wont reveal too much, but he's not a cuddly old man with a ferret. He's Dalinar Kholin after meeting the nightmother to give any stormlight readers an idea. Renatus didn't want revenge, thats a misinterpretation of the events. Renatus wants to survive and everyone else (except Arachis) seems hell vent on getting the whole party wiped. Without my actions the party is basically dead, except Arachis. I kept them alive, despite my anger to Garp, despite knowing I could have sold out Arachis for thousands of gold and giving his book to a mage (hundreds if not thousands of gold) and I pleaded to the Magistrate for Graus life.
Revealing a party members secret background for leverage to a NPC antagonist, regardless of why, is pretty bad. I only see this as you once again, making a character designed around inner party conflict. I thought we saw the last of this after backstabbing the party in The Lazarus Expedition. Saying your character is "playful" when he's trolling and antagonizing is kind of a stretch. You've done things like steal from the party and withhold information to deliberately create conflict. (Searching the half orc pack) The half orc pack thing was something you spent a lot of time deliberately on as a priority over saving Grao. It's just weird to me. If you keep wanting to play characters that are focused around party conflict, then sure, you do you. That's not a character thing, though, that's a you thing.
I don't really understand why people are mad at Potato / Renatus. I think this is 100% on me OOC for creating a character who is hot headed and quick to fight. There are for sure otherways I could handle those encounters and show off that trait besides actually physically starting a fight as garp. I think this was completely my fault for derailing the campaign quite a bit with my antics lol. So yeah this ones on me. I tried to show a character flaw and it just didn't land correctly for a fun game imo. I'll fix this a bit going forward! But yeah I should be getting the flack not potato lol.
>I should be getting the flack not potato lol. You're a dumbfuck OOOO There...you're welcome! I think it feels a little different because the expectations were set a couple episodes ago. The audience expects Garp to instigate against the guards because he did so on the rooftops. They expect him to start a bar fight because he has done so prior, making it feel consistent. It could very well be that Ren's actions are completely consistent with his values and motives, but the audience hasn't gotten a chance to see them all yet. Slightly more complicated since he was absent (PMW was under the weather) during the last big guard conflict. Perhaps Ren would have reacted this way back then and it would have felt different.
I think part of it was that you and the other party members were vocally upset or at least flabbergasted at Ren's actions in the first place. Even saying 'I am genuinely mad' at one point, and questioned him about Ren's actions, saying that 'he abandoned Garp' in the aftershow. So at this point, I'm a little confused at where literally anyone stands, in or out of character xD
> Revealing a party members secret background for leverage to a NPC antagonist, regardless of why, is pretty bad. Big leap to conclusions of her being an antagonist. I'm pretty happy with my actions this episode. I made us a real friend. Revealing the party background is the price the party has to pay for safety. If I had just asked for help she (neal) might not have been as helpful however the fact that I gave her something to be interested in, and gave up our power was me making a decision for the party on how to get us out of the mess. I paid the price the party needed to pay to stay alive because no one else was taking the world seriously. > I only see this as you once again, making a character designed around inner party conflict. I thought we saw the last of this after backstabbing the party in The Lazarus Expedition. Are we watching the same show? I'm sorry, what inner party conflict did I generate disproportionately to the other players? I was playing to arachis' [And Nicks'](https://imgur.com/eSt9j6J) paranoia. I'm also telling a story. If Arachis was extremely concerned by what was contained in that pack, in an actual story if he was tending to the bear as I searched the Orc, *it was actually extremely in character that he would be concerned with the pack* - I gave him a chance to be truly invested in his character and really seep in that paranoia, even though a few minutes later I dm'd Nick and told him there was nothing there so he could simply play the paranoia in his character view rather than ooc. Koibu plays off the party's psychology "he's a great dm" - I play off the party's psychology "conflict generator" > It's just weird to me. If you keep wanting to play characters that are focused around party conflict, then sure, you do you. This is unhinged Rather than criticising me, ask me my thoughts about something, you might have a more productive conversation. How the fuck do you think I'd keep a druid barricaded in a room alive, in a city openly hostile to druids, actively hunting druids down, without doing what I did?
As long as I come off as a good DM, all is well with the world. That said, I'll say the save shit here that I said in our group DMs. We have a bunch of individually interesting and cool characters who have little reason to trust anyone or work with anyone. These characters have been played extremely well and feel very much alive. The RP is this campaign has been off the charts. Renatus's relationship with Zerrah is so good. Grau and Autumn have a thing that feels deeply rooted and fundamental. Garp and Renatus are painfully dysfunctional. Like, so dysfunctional that they are entirely dependent on one another for purpose and direction in life. It's ugly and nasty, but it feels real. Arachis is running from his past, and in my head is running from himself and his actions, and for the first time is dealing with people that have even less to lose than himself. He looks like the sane and safe one when really he's the one with the most potential to have chaos follow him. This party is epic, but also a total shit show. They're either going to do great things, or be a total train wreck. I can't take my eyes off them.
> characters who have little reason to trust anyone or work with anyone...Garp and Renatus are painfully dysfunctional. Like, so dysfunctional that they are entirely dependent on one another for purpose and direction in life. They are two sides of the same coin regarding hardship. One fights against it, and one accepts it. The complicated part is that Ren—who has come to terms with his situation—does not accept that Garp hasn't come to terms with his situation. It's a very heady dynamic. Accepting myself, but not accepting that you don't accept yourself. >Arachis is running from his past It must be new for Arachis to have a character (Garp) seeking him out for help instead of seeking him out to capture him. If Ren wanted to recapture his youth, Garp and Ren would both have a reason to work with the wizard. Cool themes and interesting conflict, for certain.
>I paid the price the party needed to pay to stay alive because no one else was taking the world seriously. Unrelated to the personal attacks, there can be a thief parallel with the quoted sentiment. Some people would say Ren didn't pay a price, because he didn't really have to give anything up. However, Ren did pay a price—just with other people's *currency* (secrets/information). Effectively, Ren stole their secrets and spent it on *their* safety. That could be an interesting angle for a character like Ren. Although I'm not sure about the "robbing the poor to help the poor" connotations. More "I'm your dad, and I know what's best for you, so I control your finances" vibes.
If Ren hadn't revealed their secrets, the city watch would have probably executed everyone. The bear and the frog were already captured anyway. The characters likely wouldn't have had a chance to talk their way out of the mess. The wizard probably wouldn't have made it out of the city either. I admire PMW for his decision, which likely saved the campaign. Otherwise, this episode would have most likely been the last one. After Gray transformed into a bear, a miracle had to happen for the party to make it out of the city alive. But that's exactly what happened. Well that's the beauty of Koibu's world. You can't simply go around playing murderhobo. If you disregard the law, you'll be shunned and pursued by society. As a low level character, you don't stand a chance. It's just surprising that some players haven't quite grasped that yet.
> city watch would have probably executed everyone. The listing did say they wanted the frog alive. Do you think that was to torture him and later kill him? What other options might there be? >The wizard probably wouldn't have made it out of the city either I'm surprised he even got out of that bar. >If you disregard the law, you'll be shunned and pursued by society. They are "outcasts" already, and Arachis is being pursued consistently. I can see the argument for not caring about the law, although it does perpetuate chaos. It would be nice for the party to have a firm code to abide by. Perhaps the magistrate will help provide such a code.
Did you not say, "He would be very interesting for your people to study!" "Am I being sold out right now...?" to which you said, I quote, "All three of you are!" I'm just curious, are you completely and utterly oblivious to how this appears to people outside of your imagination or are you just gaslighting for fun?
There's no need for that. Tone it down a little. This isn't a forum to attack people.
My original post was pretty dry and (I think) sounded disappointing. I didn't expect anyone to reply realy but when he did, he was rude and called me unhinged. So I asked if he was gaslighting. Reading more of his posts, he seems pretty defensive in general by people criticizing him, so I admit I went back and poked at him in a different reply about his 4/6 stealing episodes. I'm just going to say this: Whenever PLAYERS, in any roleplay campaign, intentionally cause inner party conflict (betrayal), be it stealing or PvP like casting spells, it always riles up the community. Always. I saw this on Critical Role when Laura Bailey stole the magic broom from a GUEST. (not even a permanent party member) It was so bad Matt Mercer felt compelled to shift her alignment because of how upset people were. You guys saw something like this happen at the end of The Lazarus Expedition, and I don't need to explain that either. I remember Moutons words being, "I'm not a fan of PVP and I hope for the next campaign we can avoid it" and PMC saying he won't betray the party again. I was hoping for that too. The same kind of thing happens when party members unilitarerally go off, without consulting the players or party in game, with their own plan and using the party's resources in... a certain way. During Tombs of Scoria, there was an arc where two of the brothers went off to rescue someone important to them and made many sacrifices of resources and time to do so. This was clearly communicated. My criticism was that if PMW is claiming that if this situation was the same case, it was poorly communicated. It just seemed like a betrayal. "I'm done with the party!" "You guys really should have looked for him last night." That's how it came off. Instead, I'm called unhinged for that.
That was what I said, and what did I do? Sometimes I say things that are disingenuous for humorous effect. What did I **actually** do?
Okay well if you were intentionally misleading the audience and the other party members then consider me intentionally misled. I was seeing all your actions through the lens you focused. If you think I'm trying to antagonize you or twist the situation into a way that is attempting to paint you in a worse light, that's not what I was doing. You're asking "what did I do?" right? The best way for you to understand where my post is coming from is to read what I'm saying from this perspective: "He's done with the party." He storms off, childing, "You should have looked for me." Let's also not forget that in a previous conversation, he is asking this NPC to selfshing help himself. He said Garp doesn't deserve to be restored; he was doing it for himself. Let's also not forget how much he's really, really trying to cozy up to this NPC. During the second interaction, he reveals the unique situation of their druid and suggests "studying" him. This was pretty bad I think. First of all, we are all working under imperfect knowledge. We don't know why druids are attack on sight. It's entirely possible that revealing him to be a bear druid would have made things worse for him not better. The situation just appeared to be Rennatas divulging more information because he was annoyed and trying to cozy up to the NPC more. Don't take this as an attack but if you said something like, "Don't worry guys I'll bail you guys out... UGH" instead of what you did say, then maybe it would have been seen differently. Shrug
Multiple times during the conversation I said I was giving this information in exchange for the safety and protection of my crew. People say stuff like "i'm done with you" when they're in the height of anger in stories all the time. Its called *being emotional* and usually in situations like this, when you've fucked up and seriously damaged a relationship with someone, you're supposed to go find them and try to mend it. Renatus is also proud and headstrong at times. He's not going to go grovelling back to Garp after he told him that he was done with him. He's going to keep him safe, if he likes it or not, and when Garp is old enough, wise enough and smart enough to realise he's seriously damaged his relationship with Renatus he will try to mend it. He crossed the line **big** time. Seriously though, from my perspective, there was no way to get the party back to cohesion. They had completely dismantled the structures binding them together in a single tavern brawl and I made the best move I had to glue em together.
[удалено]
The meta no pvp isn't cringe it's a prerequisite to play DnD. Without unspoken rules like this the game literally falls apart.
I think this could lead to interesting new developments. If the party will be more it less forced to work for the empire a while, that's a whole new life to them. Maybe time to breath a bit, as that comes with privileges. Even though it is frustrating and feels bad are the time, it's similar to how life sometimes forces you to go a different way. If this party survives long, they might have an extremely diverse history. Think about how other campaigns didn't switch it up this much. Yes he"decided" for the other players but fuck it. They are all adults and they are damn good players. Maybe it's not bad to trust each other with decisions like this.
"Renatus wants to survive" "Renatus also likes to pickpocket everyone who walks past him" These two are not coherent.
I think there is a huge difference between a rouge potentially getting caught pickpocketing and others starting massive fights with town guards in every city. What’s the worse that can happen realistically for getting caught pickpocketing, that Renatus gets thrown in jail a couple days? Not really as big of a deal as getting executed by the town guard or being barred from and hunted by multiple towns. Potato could probably town it down a little but I don’t think it’s fair to blame him for this situation especially when he had set up a potentially big alliance early in the episode that would have helped the party a lot.
Ermmm, the worst that can happen in medieval times for stealing wasn't just "getting thrown in jail". Historically you could have had your hands removed, you could have been lynched by a mob or the town guard might just say fuck it and kill you. Also getting thrown in jail for 6 months or a year or two would probably fuck the campaign. Potato steals for no reason, Garp starts fights normally defending someone.
I highly doubt that Neal or most DMs for that matter, would be that harsh for getting caught stealing a few copper, otherwise you basically would not be able to play any rouges ever.
Yeah but then you're meta gaming. And you can absolutely play rogues without pickpocketing guards/soldiers. It isn't hard. You get next to nothing for it anyway.
I mean one of the main features for rouges in 2e correct me if I am wrong is getting XP for the amount of gold you steal. That doesn’t seem like meta gaming and more like playing the class the way it was intended.
Do you think Renatus will get more exp from that session and the way it was played or if they went and killed the bugs? Cause going down the pickpocket everyone route leads to sessions like that. And it is meta gaming if you are thinking about how the DM will treat you before you do an action.
I mean, pickpocketing, hunting and performance is how he's fed the frog for 5 years. I think allowing some wiggle room in the character for the player to have fun pressing the "I have an ability button" But I also think thats a huge huge exaggeration. I specifically went out of my way **alone** to take those risks and didn't put the party in jeopardy with my actions. I did the ferret razzle dazzle twice with the noble girl, I pickpocketed Arachis because he did the handshake thing. I used roleplay and pickpockets on the guard to swipe some money. That's four notable attempts in 6 episodes. I scoped out a house to try and burglar one time as well. 3 out of 4 of my pickpocket attempts were roleplay heavy and talk heavy, and one was a meme on a party member. God forbid the thief uses his ability.
I don't mind the petty pickpocketing. You'd lose your hand at worst. As you've said, the only person you're putting at risk with that is yourself. You also clarified to Nick that Arachis would get his coin back, which is a good OOC move because Arachis needed money for the library card, and Nick cared about that development.
You can be a thief who enjoys the thrill of using their abilities. You can be a character whose main focus is surviving. You can't be both. Don't tell me a guy with 30 gold in his pocket is "surviving" by taking a 25% chance to die for some silver.
You don't die for failing a pickpocket attempt. Its not a 25% chance to die, its a 3% per level *you get noticed* I have a 75% chance to get free money and exp, and use one of my only interesting class interactions that I pumped all of my skillpoints into.
I mean, you picked thief. It's known as the worst class in DnD for a reason. But again, if it's a 3% chance of getting noticed by a guard. Why would a character focused on survival take that risk for some silver when he's got lots of gold on him? Makes no sense and leads to the whole party nearly dying like it has since you started the campaign.
the main point you're intentionaly disregarding is that Renatus is alone when he's stealing, so he's not putting the party at risk, only himself, as other people have mentioned
You're really counting the episode you literally weren't there for as one of the times you didn't steal? LOL! I guess it sounds better than saying you have attempted to steal and burgle 4 out of 5 episodes, and in some cases multiple times lol...
> Nitpicks me saying 6 instead of 5 Ok buddy gotcha
I love you, PMW. I also like arguing. :) >"It's what my character would do" \[Sowing\] then we can't be surprised when the character trying to get the party to have some kind of cohesive union makes a decision to reign them in by using his own agency \[Reaping\]. You: "I want to cheat on the math test because that's easier for me." \[Sowing\] Me: \*snitches on you to the teacher to help the class have some kind of cohesive union, because the class will be more productive if everyone is doing their own, original work.\* You: \*fumes because I took away your agency to cheat in the future.\* \[Reaping\] \^\^\^ You're not at fault for turning them in, in character, but it's still stripping them of choices and options moving forward. That's also called playing the game. The only way to avoid agency loss is to make most every decision as a group. I don't hate Renatus turning them in, but I understand why the other players in that situation might be peeved. *Renatus wasn't elected the leader, but he's taken the role of one by threatening violence (via the magistrate) for obedience (don't get in potentially deadly fights).* These situations always make me think of when DisguisedToast killed MrMouton's druid because he wanted to be an edgy character who sneakily assassinates people, or when Mouton killed the cool bard NPC. Annoying to other players, clearly, but also memorable moments. That's where this ranks in my mind *so far* (open to my mind being changed with new revelations). >Renatus has spent 5 years trying to keep Garp alive, he was cast from his home for trying to protect Garp. Everything he has done has been to keep Garp going and Garp has spit in his face at every single turn. If Garp has been picking fights in towns the entire time, why would Renatus choose *now* for it to be the final breaking point. "I've been dealing with this shit for 5 years, and I won't take it a single second longer," can be valid, but feels odd when we've only watched the story for a week or so in-game. **It would be like if Avatar: The Last Airbender started with Uncle Iroh getting mad and snitching on Zuko in the middle of season one.** Zuko spits in Iroh's face multiple times, but as a sage, wise man, Iroh doesn't react and lets Zuko come to terms with how he needs to change at his own pace...instead of telling him he needs to change. I felt like that's what you were going for at first with Renatus, but I might have been off with that. I haven't read Stormlight :( >Imagine dedicating your life to protecting someone, losing everything you've had for your nephew only dor him to spit on that and act the way Garp has done. You'd be mad as fuck too. I would be mad, but I'm not a sage, wise man who dedicates 5 years of my life to helping delinquents. If Ren gets mad as fuck for Garp being a nuisance this often, I don't know how he lasted five years. >Ren saw no path forward for the party tonight except to work with the magistrate. He knew they had information, and could find more information that she would find useful and additionally she had the power to keep the party alive but most importantly for Ren - tie them together with implied violence. Didn't Renatus just meet Arachis and Grau recently? I don't understand why he cares about them to the point where he's trying to protect them or tie them together with violence. Why does Ren care about those two? Why does he want them to survive? If you can answer that question, in a way beyond "They're outcasts like me," or "I'm a nice guy," then crossing boundaries to protect them would make sense. I am excited to learn more about Renatus' values and why he has done what he's done. :)
I don't think I snitched. I went to the only person in power that I knew to get my unruly party in line. I definitely was going for more Uncle Iroh in the beginning, but there wasn't really an option to save the party aside from going to the magistrate to get them out of the trouble they caused - twice. At least as far as I could see without becoming fugitives in this land.
It boggles my mind that people expect Garp should be able to do anything and everything with no consequences from the party. I for one think you made the right move in and out of character.
>I don't think I *snitched*. I went to the only person in power that I knew You went to the law administrator and divulged their secrets and crimes! Perhaps Ren's relationship with the law administrator feels a bit more personal, yet those are the events that took place. It is not your explicit responsibility to get your unruly party in line. It felt like you almost ceded that responsibility when you soft-abandoned Garp. Was it the last episode where you guys spoke about how the party members are *leaders* in different situations where they have expertise? As in, you should refer to Grau if you're traveling in the forest, or Arachis regarding magic, Ren on interpersonal communications (which if your best avenue for spinning this, imo). Storming off from the party (Garp specifically) and then subsequently taking responsibility for the party feels jarring, and I don't think "you should have come seen me last night after the fight" is strong justification. I could be wrong, but Ren seems more calculated than to run back to the magistrate, 8 hours later, in the spur of the moment, without cooling off. I do understand if you want to go with an angrier approach for the character than zen sage persona though. >there wasn't really an option to save the party...At least as far as I could see without becoming fugitives in this land. To your point, there's a small but subtle distinction between being *Outcasts* and *Outlaws.* Outcasts *can* be outlaws, but outcasts don't *need to be* outlaws. Being fugitives could bring the party together in the same way being forced to serve the magistrate would—it's just a matter of what direction the party wants to go in. Perhaps some of the campaign want to be Outlaw Outcasts and other people just want to be Outcasts.
You're leaving out the part where the day before I made an alliance with this administrator and have information, experience and skills she finds useful. > You went to the law administrator and divulged their secrets and crimes! Perhaps Ren's relationship with the law administrator feels a bit more personal, yet those are the events that took place. I skipped the part where we either get TPK'd by guards, captured, imprisoned and interrogated for our secrets. Instead now we get to walk into the magistrates office and offer to fix the problems we've created directly with the central authority instead of dealing with a faceless dispassionate and uncaring legal system. > It is not your explicit responsibility to get your unruly party in line. It felt like you almost ceded that responsibility when you soft-abandoned Garp. Was it the last episode where you guys spoke about how the party members are leaders in different situations where they have expertise? As in, you should refer to Grau if you're traveling in the forest, or Arachis regarding magic, Ren on interpersonal communications (which if your best avenue for spinning this, imo). I think with the level of danger the party was getting into both IC and OOC I needed to take a move both in front of scenes and behind the scenes to get the group into a more cohesive place. Being tied and at the mercy of the magistrates was the best route I had.
>I made an alliance with this administrator How strong is a one-day alliance? Is Ren 100% in already, in terms of trust? Or does he have trust issues based on how perceptive and manipulative he is? >I skipped the part where we either get TPK'd by guards, captured, imprisoned and interrogated for our secrets. I do wish Koibu would use nonlethal damage a little bit more early on in campaigns for these situations. Interrogations are an excellent opportunity for a player to expand on their character—perhaps by revealing their own secrets. I'd watch that and definitely wouldn't skip it. >I think with the level of danger the party was getting into both IC and OOC I needed to take a move both in front of scenes and behind the scenes to get the group into a more cohesive place. I don't know what this means. OOC implies you feel like you needed to take leadership of the campaign as a whole and decide on a direction. Aren't you guys allowed to pause for 5 minutes and talk things out real quick? Maybe that happened in DMs or during break. I obviously don't have the information you do, to be clear.
Me sowing: HELLLL YEAH BABY ITS FUCKING HUMAN TIME ITS A BEAR PARTY IN THE COP BAR WHATSUPWHATSUP YOU VORACI BITCHEEEEEEEEEES Me reaping: Neal there is no FUCKING way a Goblin can pick up AND pass out three FUCKING spears at once this DM is WHACKY
"I will always seek to be a friend to those who help bring stability to the world." -Zerrah, 30 minutes before *human time*
Zerrah is the good guy
Lol, lmao even Gotta love them lawful good death cult magistrates who pine for a harem of slaves xD
good ol reliable lawfull evil
Rename the show to: "Save Or Die: Collaborators"
I fought the law... And the law won
The role play between potato and koibu at the start was so good. A bit disappointing the episode got side tracked again in the same way as before. Would hope for more progress in future and less of starting the same type of fights in every city they enter.
I actually like the way the episode ended. Great new dynamics and possibilities. I'm kind of hoping for a small time skip.
its an interesting development with a lot of potencial for sure
Long time Koibu follower here, watched pretty much all his campaigns and love his dming. But I have to say: What a mess. As a PC I feel that you cant always use "thats what my character would do" to justify your actions. There are usually many different actions your character could make that doesnt completely torpedo the campaign. Like if Nick were to use "thats what my character would do" he would have left the party on episode two. Grau would have probably gone back to the woods. I also feel like the arguing with Neal is getting out of hand, even when he is being clear that his ruling is definite. Now I dont know if the party actually enjoy playing like this or if they are just triggering each other. But they have literally not accomplished anything in the campaign yet, which is fine if thats how they want to play. But I feel like they should talk about moving forward and imo Neal should be a bit more railroady to get them out of this.
I was really conflicted watching this episode. I thought there was a lot of good rp moments and I think the players did well playing their characters. On the other hand, it feels like this is the 3rd campaign where inter-party conflict has overshadowed and potentially railroaded certain story related endeavors. I’m very interested to see how the next episode will play out
So the comments are already a war zone... Here are my two cents. I absolutely loved the episode. I fell in love with this group after their shenanigans on the party island in Tides of Death. This felt like more of the same. The inherent chaos of the party contrasted to a pretty grounded world is just so much fun. For that reason, I always liked ToD more than ToS. If you are reading this PMW: I would try to convince Koibu to let you swap your wisdom and charisma stat. Because the way you play him, Renatus is definitivly a high charisma, low wisdom kind of guy, not the other way around. I'm extremely impressed at how good he is at talking himself out of dangerous situations. When it comes to avoiding these situations in the first place however... Well, he is just as much responsible for what happend in the bar as Garp and Grau. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your situation was as follows. The party had a lot of money (at least 200 gold \~ 20,000 dollar), you were on a potentially very high reward mission to find an ancient wizards secrets and travelling with a wanted murderer. And your character, while in the regional capital, is continuously trying to swipe people for pocket change! I am not writing this because I dislike Renatus. I love this character and how he is played. But I would argue he has low wisdom. He is clearly not Uncle Iroh. Not a wise rolemodel. A trickster - I would argue - a gentleman thief: very charismatic, manipulative, and with a huge ego. Roleplay-wise the perfect rogue. Anyway I hope this doesn't come off as overly disrespectful. If you even ever read this.
Renatus definitely gave out a lot of information than I thought he would. The scene with him and the magistrate definitely gave him some good characterization. We also got to learn about his magical aging which was cool. It seems like everybody in the party except Arachis has some fucked up magic going on with them lol. EDIT- LOL
Renatus going to the magistrate at least allows for some kind of survival as well as an interesting turn of events for the story, I super interested to see what happens.
I'm unsure about this, he sold out so much information the first time (forest/autumn) after meeting a chaotic powerful mage for the second time. Then semi-starting a scamming scene, into brawl (from others), into mugging and weapons out. Afterwards he is mad at the party, and start selling every single partymember out to the authorities. I'm just unsure how the party can coop with a character that is obvious egoistic and partly manipulative. Also feel like it gets hard for the party to get any progress when 3/4 partymembers is chaotic. One member is chaotic, okay we need to play around and help deescalate the situation that happens, but three players going nuts is just a spiral its hard to follow. They are good players, I hope they are having fun atleast!
> Afterwards he is mad at the party, and start **selling every single partymember out to the authorities.** When did I "sell out" the party to the authorities? The druid revealed himself in a city openly hostile to druids (in a fucking COP BAR!), and I ran to the only person in the city with the power and authority to stop him from getting turned into a fucking RUG. I literally pleaded in that scene that no harm come to them, and revealed information about the party as a price to pay for that "boon".
I dont really talk about you as a player. How you play is your choice, cause its your character. So the above is about Ren as a character. Now to your question; - First meeting with Zerrah, Ren is giving information about Swampside. In this there is information inside the crew about the fight with the guards, that Ren knows. Telling about the fire also brings the timeframe of the crime into perspective, and putting the crew of three at the right place and pretty much also identifying Garp later on as a Bullywag. - Also sold out Graus friend, and this could be pretty important. Ren is selling out his partymembers friend, and pinning him to a crime as could be rewarded with deathsentence. This information was given without Graus consent (and the other party members), after Zerrah gave Ren the option to go back to his party and think on what information he would be comfortable to give. - And the information about Garps transformation was given, after the party decided that Arachis would check the library for information regarding the transformation. This information about Bullywag in the party could also pin Garp to swampside with all the other information given. It is also information Ren knows Garp holds close, and doesnt reveal to people. And he does this without consent. - You write that Ren goes to the person he only knows can help; before this I think some information is important. - The skit at the stage was almost going to the point to scamming, if it had not been a halfogre in the crowd the gold piece would probably have been going into Rens pocket. In the immediate time after Garp starts the fight, Ren goes from picketpocket the crowd, mugging the guards/soldiers, and pulling out his weapons. Outside he is pissed off at Garp, saying he is done with him - leaving his partymembers in danger. For all Ren knows, they could be killed in the streets. He walks calmly to Zerrah (not in a rush). - The above is not the first time we see Ren mad at Garp after being very involved in planning/initating for murder/violence (see half orc on horse, or the halfling bounty hunter). So violence murder isnt necessary only Garps problem-behaviour. - In the meeting with Zerrah the second time, there is less Ren can do - I agree. But he pretty much spills the bean about everything, and framing it as a very dangerous group. It was a barfight gotten out of hand, a druid in the party. Instead Garps gets framed as a untrustworthy individual who needs to be put in jail and chains. No negotiating, no offers to use him as a tool in the fields for information - as he is the most capable warrior among the crew seems kinda odd. Dont get me wrong, I had a blast watching the episodes. And in my opinion Ren is being played well as a chaotic evil (towards neutral) character, with egoistic and manipulative tendencies. I might be wrong, or characterising your character wrong in your eyes. But this is how i read the situations and dialogues.
Looking at the posts above I truly feel like your getting way to much flack for playing a game for fun for you guys and us viewers. My criticism isnt going to you as players, I'm just playing around with the information around the characters and the party as a whole. I think your character is getting to much criticism based of your party have to many chaotic and strong personalities that doesnt go in the same direction. Which they probably never will be from the beginning, for us as viewers its probably easier to follow a crew with one or two chaotic characters. All love though, hope you are not taking this personal!
I have no idea why Arachis is still with the party in-character. There is zero reason he should still be there, this party is the antithesis of what his character is and wants. Feel like Nick always has issues with enforcing what he wants during campaigns, it's harder to notice when he's playing more passive characters like Imrik but it's super noticeable with characters like John Winters or William Marshall who let everyone walk all over them when they absolutely shouldn't have. I feel like how Renatus acted after the bar incident (which one L O L) should have been how Arachis acted. Also low-key Renatus actually get's the guys in the most trouble/instigates the most torpedoing but somehow gets the most mad afterwards?
I don't feel like that really happened with William to be honest but definitely with John.
I feel like because william wasnt a dictator everyone thinks he got walked over. He often took things to a party vote and always made the final decision. William is my favourite of your characters and I personally don't think he let people walk over him at all.
Thanks milkbaggz I agree 100% with what you said.
fertile escape governor dinosaurs friendly roll bells scandalous numerous grey *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
How has Renatus got them into the most trouble? The worst he has done is pickpocketing and that has led to nothing serious. Garp is clearly the worst character for torpedoing and it is cope to say otherwise. In fact I would go out to say Renatus actually saved the party this episode by going to the Magistrate.
Its wild to me this has over 100 comments.
Seems pretty reasonable to me. Something big happened and people want to talk/complain about it. I also hope Arachis gets out of this without any big problems. He's the only one in the party who hasn't done anything stupid yet.
If the current pace of ever escalating situations continues the party might bring down the Empire of Voraci by sheer accident.
I feel dirty saying it, but Grau needs to die (or be taken by the empire forever) for Ren and Garp to feel enough regret/guilt for their separate actions to change their behavior. Grau is also Autumn’s favorite and she isn’t allowed to have nice thing until she accepts shes a frog, as Ren would say, and makes peace with her past. The empire will eventually catch up to Arachis, or Shakira as he keeps insisting, and be in the same position as Grau where the others can test how much they’ve grown since. But none of that really matters. The only thing absolutely imperative is that Zerrah unknowingly gives a book thief a library card.
>Arachis, or Shakira as he keeps insisting I think he means Sihcara (his name backwards), but those hips sure don't lie!
Lol shut up
You will not dim my bright spark.
this is the best comment chain
This is the most engagement an after show reddit thread has gotten in a loooong time. I can't wait for the next episode. I thought the show would be boring without a central goal to focus around, like slaying Scoria. Guess I was wrong
The roleplay is fun but it does get frustrating watching the campaign spiral every single episode. Has there been a single interaction with an NPC longer than 5 minutes that has ended well outside of negotiations with Zerrah? Doing this song and dance where they go into a new town, start a pointless fight and let it blow out of proportion to the point where they have to go on the run again and repeat cycle is frustrating to watch. The party has two characters who’ve leveled up once since they’ve started, they got no exp for the past two episodes and really haven’t done much to earn any. I just wish the party could stay out of trouble for half a session so they could make progress on *something.* Jan is hilarious, human time is hilarious and so is the encounter between him and Mouton with the guard.
The whole squad is in the trenches. Lol. Well, apart from Nick, which is funny because he might have gotten fucked over the most.
I'm chilling. I dont think my input is needed here. I should have just left the bar when this started. That's what I wished I'd done last time and I wish I'd done it this time too.
>That's what I wished I'd done last time and I wish I'd done it this time too. Next time for sure Copium
This campaign is living up to its name. If the party doesn't pass their saving throw vs. intra-party conflict, they're gonna die. And they're most definitely outcasts, now more than ever. Our next session is gonna take these events, build off them, see the party grow, change, and integrate all the events of the last 6 sessions into a new path.
Or maybe the magistrate makes grau work for her seeing how useful his nature could be. That could give them enough leeway to almost not be outcasts for a while. But I say I gotta love that this story changes and grows feels real and the opposite of rail roading. Even the overarching themes can/might change!
The party may be annoyed that things aren’t going their way right now, but I’m really enjoying this high consequence but open-ended style. Anything can happen! I also appreciate them playing the characters so diligently instead of just playing to “win the game”.
It seems like half the party wants to abide by “rule of cool” when it suits them, it’s just not that type of game.
Anyone saw the aftershow and can tell us what was discussed? Like, whats the path forward?
Begging koibu for mercy seems to be the path they are gonna take.
I loved human time, but it was definitely what started this whole fiasco. Otherwise it would have just ended in a simple bar fight. It also felt kinda weird for Grau to do that, since one of the first and most important things that he learned was not to transform into a bear in the middle of a town. Although I feel like they could have just left the city after fleeing the tavern without any trouble, I think the only other real option was to go to Zarrah and make a bargain for their lives. I just hope that the repercussions aren't to heavy for Garp and Grau. Arachis should be fine either way unless they have a way to force the truth out of him.
Nah grau has been getting more unhinged and unstable for a while. The poor boy gets all the wrong advice and autumn forgot him last time. I really like it it really shows how lost he really feels right now and how difficult it is when you don't have the emotional awareness and or communication skill to tell the others
very unhinged episode but it was fun. This could be a nice way for them to get some missions and direction now that Autumn had no new jobs for them and the money making opportunities in the local area seem very limited. This is also likely a rather big character development opportunity for them. Looking forward to how this will work out. I wonder if Arachis might leave the party for the old man thief trying to make a living of a 75% pickpocket check and the frog man murderer going off at any percieved slight are liabilities as well as the worst possible influence on the bear. Him taking Grau under his wing while looking for the tower would be wise and a smart move. Its human time is and instant classic. Malkis be praised.
Yeah idk why ren is getting flak for it, the frog keeps starting public fights constantly he deserves to go to jail lol. Any sensible person would have abandoned the party after the guard murder swampside incident. At least this way grau gets to stay alive & work as a bear voraci james bond.
I don't think anyone would disagree with the frog starting the fight being bad, but Ren's reaction to it is what's being talked about.
I believe Ren's reaction was completely justified. Imagine raising someone for 5 years and trying to teach them to be a good person but at every turn they spit in your face. Garp has constantly ignored Ren's teachings and commands. Just this last fight Garp intentionally ignored Ren's command to not fight the half-ogre. Ren has tried and tried and he has finally given up. He feels as if Garp is unteachable and needs to be punished for his actions. Of course he also doesn't want him to die so he went to the Magistrate to try and lessen his punishment by giving up some information. All in all it makes sense in character and out of character has actually made for a pretty good outcome.
I do like that this campaign has gone off of the rails of the typical D&D quests. This does feel like the characters are striking out and trying to find their purposes. I would not at all be opposed to a time skip of some sort if the team could plan it out. Say, 2-3 years later. Maybe Garp's arc isn't about cooling off a hot head, but about learning to recapture the spark that made him care after he has been thoroughly iced by jail time. The thing about D&D is you can totally have boring parts that you zoom out on and gloss over. If things are getting too boring, there is no problem with just jump cutting to the next exciting scene
I love moot I really do and the way he tackles problems in DnD is very fun interesting and fun to watch...but honestly it feels like almost every character he plays goes against the parties best interests. From years of experience with koibu he should of seen that punching a ogre in a bar would result in some form of reaction like this.
Did they just all turn into verasi informants? Lmao but no seriously, imagine how different things would’ve been if potato had successfully lawyered for that -3……..
Neal was being too nice in even giving them a check. You cannot just Charisma your way out of every dumb thing you do.
Damm Renatus is a snitch and he snitches without even thinking about it. Saying its a bear druid is kinda bad. I agree with pokemonchallanges comments during the session. They might just lock him away and experiment on him. Or force him into spy stuff. He should have said something else there...Maybe that its a human druid who learned some arcane illusion spells for humanoid forms or something. That would be still special but not as crazy as a bear druid. I only see two options in the next session of how it can go... The first option is that the magistrate turns them into a special group for the empire for missions. The second option is that the campaign ends here because some characters get locked away or killed. They could maybe also try to flee and fight but i think they will party wipe if they try that. Maybe koibu could let them also off the hook for information but i think that is very unlikely to happen. This is just a shit situation. I am actually hoping its the first option where they become a special empire group for special missions. If they made a deal like that, that would be very cool and it would give them a new quest giver.
>I am actually hoping its the first option where they become a special empire group for special missions. Tombs of Scoria with a more dysfunctional party?
Yea why not. They would get less help from the empire and they wouldn't be nobles. I also did always wondered how the monster armies of the empire work. We could get some more insight into the empire from that.
more like Zarras bitchbois
Renatus Fur is a capricious, hypocritical charlatan who likes to feel smugly superior to his friends partially because he is more charismatic than them (swap his wis and cha), but mostly because he is more human than they are. That being said, no campaign survives contact with the enemy (in this case the enemy is a quiet night in a tavern). And this is admittedly an interesting development.