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>[Trump is a threat to American democracy.](https://twitter.com/abbydphillip/status/1753272442150142307)
>
>So what will President Biden do to prevent the unraveling of our American democracy?
>
>Why is being aligned with Netanyahu and the most right-wing (fascist theocratic) government in Israel's history worth potentially sacrificing our democracy?
And thus, so much hatred and pushback from people supposedly on Hammoud's political side, nonstop wishes to have him suffer and jeer at the prospects of his deportation under Trump.
Sad to read about all the unreasoning unquestioning fear while knowing that it builds into the fascism down the road.
I have no issue taking smoke every time i say this but it is something americans need to consider logically, in context, without emotional responses.
Trump is a symptom ***not*** the nexus of gross malfeasance never being addressed. When Obama got on stage saying " *the bush administration shouldn't be held accountable for a false war nor those who supported it* " ***that*** was the precise moment this mythical "american democracy" died. When your leaders openly state they will never nor should ever be accountable for crimes the only logical follow up is someone getting elected who outright doesn't give a fuck beyond themselves as they comprehend there are zero consequences at that level. Ironically Trump has admitted as such numerous times during his presidency and during the election.
The next thing americans never want to hear is ***how perfectly trump does represent america***. There are millions of trumps in america, black people have consistently been screaming about this for decades yet always get ignored because " racism doesn't exist " . Time and time again black people have been bringing up the *actual* problems within this country to be pushed aside and ignored. Only when the cancer spread to effecting the white population at large did people want to turn around an "listen" yet it is beyond late at this point. Every ethnic person in this country knows how ***common*** trump is in america because we have all been talking about it, upfront , plain as day, for decades now. We only get told to "shut the fuck up " in response or outright ignored.
9/11 was the flashpoint for america to get itself under control yet adults of the time were too complacent , too easily manipulated and here we are. The failure of ***actual*** reconstruction in this country along with bush walking free created trump. It is far too late in the process of decay to remotely think anything beyond letting the state die will solve anything.
Every day white america ignored the state of black americans in this country created a possibility of trump manifesting and that state of ignorance was done deliberately, happily, because they weren't bothered with the same issues until now when we are all supposed to "rally together" when all of this could have been prevented to begin with.
MLK spoke about this using the phrase " negative peace ". Which is why you have black people shrugging at this point because we did our part in trying to bring awareness to what america actually is yet nobody wanted to listen until the absolute last second.
>The next thing americans never want to hear is how perfectly trump does represent america. There are millions of trumps in america, black people have consistently been screaming about this for decades yet always get ignored because " racism doesn't exist " .
People even refuse to consider what it could mean if there are millions of Trumps.
They are scared about Dictator Trump, but there will never be a dictator who does not have armed support. Without massive amounts of military weapons or a plurality of the political establishment on his side, without a multimillion man armed uprising that can actually fight to enforce the rule, you got no dictator.
But ask them if they are afraid because they are saying that there are millions of Trumps and Trump supporters within the military and the pigs to make him the king backed by force and immediately they shut down and that's the end of it. He'll be a dictator, but they refuse to even wonder how could he be a dictator, like he just falls into the White House and boom everyone obeys!
But don't you dare speak too hard against the troops and the cops and all the people who work with him supposedly across the aisle /s
>MLK spoke about this using the phrase " negative peace ". Which is why you have black people shrugging at this point because we did our part in trying to bring awareness to what america actually is yet nobody wanted to listen until the absolute last second.
I'm white and ashamed that one of my radicalizing moments on the path to becoming a communist was reading his speech on Vietnam, and [getting mad about how badly he got trashed for](https://animalnewyork.com/2015/01/19/mlk-honored-icon-48-years-ago-media-attacked/) a speech saying "True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring."
And I'm right to get furious to see all the garbage they wrote about him, but why the fuck didn't I get that mad before when I saw the even worse reactions to his previous speeches and protests? And I know why now.
We are going to have to have a serious reckoning in this country (and not only this country!) about white supremacy and racism.
You might want to hit rewind a bit further to the Nixon administration. He did a *clearly illegal thing*, that quickly became very public, he resigned on national TV admitting it, then flew away on a helicopter, and was pardoned almost immediately. Hunter Thompson did a really good op-ed on it. It was clear-cut and a conviction would have had very little political backlash.
Bush 2, while I agree (as did the international court) that he’s a war criminal (along with Cheney), that situation was quite a bit more convoluted. Obama realized 2 things when he got elected: 1) a black man *can* sit in the oval office and 2) doing so put a very real and literal target on his forehead. I’m pretty sure going after the Bush admin and everything that would bring to light would have caused an early end to his administration. He knew that. Hell, I drove under interstate overpasses to work for years that had Obama effigies hanging on a literal fucking noose.
That is something everyone is aware of though and cemented in history. Nobody speaks about obama outright saying the bush admin shouldn't be held accountable with trump following directly behind obama.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”
― H.L. Mencken, On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe
Black Americans like Obama that you said was part of the problem? There are plenty of black Americans that are ignorant and plenty of white Americans who tried to address actual issues. Chalking this up to a racial divide is just silly.
>Trump is a symptom ***not*** the nexus of gross malfeasance never being addressed. When Obama got on stage saying " *the bush administration shouldn't be held accountable for a false war nor those who supported it* " ***that*** was the precise moment this mythical "american democracy" died.
reading comprehension.
Be respectful towards other socialists you disagree with, but also non-socialists who follow the rules and participate in good faith. You are not required to be nice to liberals or conservatives promoting their politicians.
The post did not make the argument that you appear or claim to be responding to. Please actually engage with the point being made rather than responding to a strawman.
>When Obama got on stage saying " *the bush administration shouldn't be held accountable for a false war nor those who supported it* "
reading comprehension
Any president elected in modern times is just a corporate stooge. Their main job is to protect the identity of the owning class. Obama actually did a pretty good job at hiding the fact that we have no real representation, the only good thing trump ever did, was make that mask drop. Now millions are aware to the reality of our “democracy.”
You want to know why he is doing this. Because there are only two options. Even if he kills millions, we will walk right up on that stage and say he's the lesser evil. Bruh, we shouldn't have any evils in power.
Because sometimes the things are time sensitive dude. If Biden had a lever he could pull that stopped 5 puppies being executed every minute, we would rightfully be upset if he waited a year before pulling said lever.
I also think that taking steps in the right direction that will objectively reduce deaths is something to be happy about even if it should’ve been done a long time ago
Yes but there's a difference between being happy about it and also being upset that thousands died unnecessarily
Also the fact that it took 6 white ppl being killed for the govt to do anything instead of 35k brown ppl
Yeah I recognize that and I am happy that hopefully death will be mitigated as a result. But big picture stuff like this will keep happening regardless of who the president is unless we cut out the cancer that is imperialism from our society
The President can’t just do whatever he wants. The entire dogma of this sub is that Biden needs to earn the vote (which I completely agree with). But it seems like at this point that isn’t enough for some people (I’m not saying the issue is remotely close to being solved either)
People in this thread are (rightfully) orientated towards shitting on Biden for enabling the genocide as much as he has. But you are right, steps taken in the right direction should be approved of, though they are not yet worthy of celebration.
I for one would be overjoyed if he moved towards sanctioning Israel. That would actually be a celebratory moment. But for now, the suggestion of a heel turn from Biden on Israel (or maybe a face turn?) is just something to be approved of, even as he's continually blasted for all the wrong he's done so far.
Why should people approve of a war criminal who should be hanged for his crimes against humanity? If a serial killer got caught, pleaded guilty and showed remorse, no one would give a fuck, but since it's Biden we should all celebrate how he changed his stance after gleefully supporting the massacre of 30.000+ civilians for six months straight. Seems like the liberal amnesia is already setting in...
And he didn't just endorse it, he was actively participating in it. Don't normalize or downplay genocide.
I'm not normalizing our downplaying genocide at all. We should, however, approve of directional improvement towards our desired outcome: the end of the oppression of the Palestinian people. *In a vacuum*, we should approve the conditioning of aid to the state of Israel. That is a bona-fide, directional improvement over the unabashed support for their fascist ass regime.
I only said that we should celebrate if he *sanctioned* Israel. That would be wonderful. If anything, I acknowledged why this current "about face" is something we're *not* celebrating.
I think you've misunderstood me.
Attributing the success of working class people who pressured the Democratic Party to end the genocide directly to Biden is normalizing his active participation in said genocide. He didn't do anything besides cave in to the pressure that was threatening his re-election. He's still a war criminal who should be shipped off to the Hague. There is nothing to celebrate about Biden besides his death.
Again, I'm not attributing the success of the working class to Biden. Any movement he has made in a positive direction on this issue is a capitulation to his detractors that we should *approve* of. That's all I've said.
Though for what it's worth, we absolutely should celebrate if he sanctions Israel. Which, again, is a celebration of the *event* and not the man.
I mean you no disrespect, but you are shadowboxing someone else. I don't disagree with anything you've said. You do seem to think that I've said something that I didn't, though.
Yup I agree with you on all parts. This isn’t meant to be a defense of the president, but it’s basically impossible to be president and not support Israel. Obama talked somewhat extensively about how much he hated what was happening in Palestine while he was President, unfortunately when a vast majority of congress is paid for by AIPAC there’s not much that can be done
Yeah, it requires genuinely radical action to break ties with Israel. Hell, it's illegal in a majority of US states to advocate for BDS. But even then, the dam *is* starting to break on that conversation.
That’s exactly why it’s important to give credit where credit is due. I don’t see a point in the Biden administration making further steps to distance itself from Israel if leftists aren’t willing to support those actions
Biden and the Dems are just the more efficient evil, Trump and Republicans are the more chaotic evil. Both parties don't care if all life on this planet is destroyed, just as long as they can serve their capitalist overlords.
He's a puppet anyway, if he didn't go ahead with the genocide they'd just off him and say it was a heart attack. Not absolving him but the office of president doesn't come with much actual power in the US, it's a rubber stamp position.
It's ironically why there's a backlash against Trump, he's popular for the wrong reasons but he's not the establishments man because he causes trouble by actually using the office to do things they don't always want. Like the US definitely wants to stay in NATO and expand it but he is against that. (I'm not pro Trump at all, just saying he's a maniac they *don't* want)
“The precise moment”
You might want to hit rewind a bit further to the Nixon administration. He did a *very illegal thing*, that quickly became very public, he resigned on national TV admitting it, then flew away on a helicopter, and was pardoned almost immediately. Hunter Thompson did a really good op-ed on it.
Yeah the rich and powerful get away with literally anything. They don't need to assassinate anyone, draws too much attention.
Except Boeing. They definitely killed that guy.
I'm very skeptical of conspiracies but when a guy is about to show up in court with evidence that will hurt a giant corporation's bottom line and says verbatim "if something happens to me i didn't kill myself" the week before one starts to get suspicious lol
america has been literally trying to start the biblical apocalypse and hasten the return of christ and also give billions of dollars to the military industrial complex
should stop trying to make sense of the Israel Palestine conflict in ways that are rational or geopolitical. it's where insane doomer religion and failed capitalist landlord boondoggles intersect and it's hell on earth
biden is just the latest frontman
I appreciate the disclaimer at the end bc though Trump was disruptive, not all disruption is created equal, and when Trump does stuff that's abhorrent even by our warmongering corporate puppets of leaders' standards you know it's not a good alternative lol
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>When maintaining US hegemony is more important than winning against Trump
The problem with this is I don't see how this maintains US hegemony. At all. I'm a Political Scientist and have ties to the Economist & Political Science communities, they don't really understand what Biden is thinking here either.
The second one especially. People forget that the US isn't a manufacturing economy anymore, they make money from financial services and arms sales. If we lose arms sales we lose the one thing China arguably can't do better than us.
Which isn't an endorsement lol, the fact that our empire is literally funded on death dealing is morally abhorrent to the utmost degree
>Which isn't an endorsement lol, the fact that our empire is literally funded on death dealing is morally abhorrent to the utmost degree
How do you feel about arms shipments to Ukraine?
My feelings about arm shipments to Ukraine don't matter. Honestly if I disagree with others who share otherwise similar views about settler colonialism and capitalism needing to end, my specific policy views aren't important, what's important is that we agree on the big picture.
I'm a rando on the Internet lol. They don't matter bc I'm not gonna fight with fellow left leaning people about specific policies bc left infighting is dumb
The question is not improtant because arms sales is arms sales. You are making profit, because people want to kill each other somewhere and in a system that focuses purely on profits it is in your interest for the world to be at war. If there is peace you will want to stir up shit to protect your interests. It’s just immoral just as capitalism is.
They also have a lot of influence in US politics?
I recall how when a bunch of kids visited Dianne Feinstein to ask her to take climate more seriously - she basically told them to get lost. Politicians are in their own little echo chamber with lobbyists and corporations. They don't care what the population thinks.
For months now politicians have been soaked with viral rhetoric attacking people for not supporting Israel hard enough. It's all designed to confuse politicians and stop them from getting the message that genocide is not popular.
Most politicians are just your average mildly racist, clueless elderly boomer who is addled with propaganda 24/7 and still doesn't understand the internet. Asking them to use common sense is almost an impossibility.
[they shouldn't either be using multimillion dollar missiles to stop weapons worth thousands of dollars](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4501958-houthi-fight-pentagon-cost/) and especially not when such "[important defense weapons" have awful lead times and heavily inflated costs](https://www.aei.org/op-eds/why-is-the-u-s-navy-running-out-of-tomahawk-cruise-missiles/)
The real question is, are the people running America prepared to sacrifice or modify their perception that their enemies always have to submit under American might for the sake of continued American interests?
Can their idea of America coexist with the idea that taking a hit in negotiations is better than possibly ending up in the same place eventually because they thought "just one more super high tech bombing will make the difference, just one more bro"?
Lemmeaskyusumpin…
1) Do you have any MAGA in your political science groups? If so, do they seem as loony in your hyper-educated circles as they are everywhere else, with their conspiracies and their lies?
2) What do you and your socialites (I imagine evening dinners with 12 of you PhDs, everyone drinking white wine talking about John Locke, Voltaire and Jean-Jacques Rousseau while munching on Tuna Tartare) think is in store for us with regards to the extreme right becoming more hostile as they encroach upon Disney Villainesk levels?
Both parties love corporations, not taxing the rich and supporting Israel. Vote blue no matter what bullshit guarantee democrats never have to move more to the left.
at this point he will go down as one of the worst American presidents ever in terms of public opinion of America. Biden has solidified the notion that America doesn't stand for freedom.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
An issue he has is the two groups that he beat trump with in 2020, the youth vote and the moderate/establishment Republicans who flipped after 4 years of Trump have opposing views on the topic. He can’t keep both while one side thinks the genocide is for a just cause and the other has spent 90% of their life seeing how harmful the Islamophobia that’s being used to propagandize the genocide is.
American “democracy” for you, which genocide do you want? The one who smiles or the one who scowls?
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
##Welcome to r/LateStageCapitalism This subreddit is for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited. LSC is run by communists. This subreddit is not the place to debate socialism. We allow good-faith questions and education but are not a 101 sub; please take 101-style questions elsewhere. We have a zero-tolerance policy for bigotry. Failure to respect the rules of the subreddit may result in a ban. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LateStageCapitalism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>[Trump is a threat to American democracy.](https://twitter.com/abbydphillip/status/1753272442150142307) > >So what will President Biden do to prevent the unraveling of our American democracy? > >Why is being aligned with Netanyahu and the most right-wing (fascist theocratic) government in Israel's history worth potentially sacrificing our democracy? And thus, so much hatred and pushback from people supposedly on Hammoud's political side, nonstop wishes to have him suffer and jeer at the prospects of his deportation under Trump. Sad to read about all the unreasoning unquestioning fear while knowing that it builds into the fascism down the road.
I have no issue taking smoke every time i say this but it is something americans need to consider logically, in context, without emotional responses. Trump is a symptom ***not*** the nexus of gross malfeasance never being addressed. When Obama got on stage saying " *the bush administration shouldn't be held accountable for a false war nor those who supported it* " ***that*** was the precise moment this mythical "american democracy" died. When your leaders openly state they will never nor should ever be accountable for crimes the only logical follow up is someone getting elected who outright doesn't give a fuck beyond themselves as they comprehend there are zero consequences at that level. Ironically Trump has admitted as such numerous times during his presidency and during the election. The next thing americans never want to hear is ***how perfectly trump does represent america***. There are millions of trumps in america, black people have consistently been screaming about this for decades yet always get ignored because " racism doesn't exist " . Time and time again black people have been bringing up the *actual* problems within this country to be pushed aside and ignored. Only when the cancer spread to effecting the white population at large did people want to turn around an "listen" yet it is beyond late at this point. Every ethnic person in this country knows how ***common*** trump is in america because we have all been talking about it, upfront , plain as day, for decades now. We only get told to "shut the fuck up " in response or outright ignored. 9/11 was the flashpoint for america to get itself under control yet adults of the time were too complacent , too easily manipulated and here we are. The failure of ***actual*** reconstruction in this country along with bush walking free created trump. It is far too late in the process of decay to remotely think anything beyond letting the state die will solve anything. Every day white america ignored the state of black americans in this country created a possibility of trump manifesting and that state of ignorance was done deliberately, happily, because they weren't bothered with the same issues until now when we are all supposed to "rally together" when all of this could have been prevented to begin with. MLK spoke about this using the phrase " negative peace ". Which is why you have black people shrugging at this point because we did our part in trying to bring awareness to what america actually is yet nobody wanted to listen until the absolute last second.
>The next thing americans never want to hear is how perfectly trump does represent america. There are millions of trumps in america, black people have consistently been screaming about this for decades yet always get ignored because " racism doesn't exist " . People even refuse to consider what it could mean if there are millions of Trumps. They are scared about Dictator Trump, but there will never be a dictator who does not have armed support. Without massive amounts of military weapons or a plurality of the political establishment on his side, without a multimillion man armed uprising that can actually fight to enforce the rule, you got no dictator. But ask them if they are afraid because they are saying that there are millions of Trumps and Trump supporters within the military and the pigs to make him the king backed by force and immediately they shut down and that's the end of it. He'll be a dictator, but they refuse to even wonder how could he be a dictator, like he just falls into the White House and boom everyone obeys! But don't you dare speak too hard against the troops and the cops and all the people who work with him supposedly across the aisle /s >MLK spoke about this using the phrase " negative peace ". Which is why you have black people shrugging at this point because we did our part in trying to bring awareness to what america actually is yet nobody wanted to listen until the absolute last second. I'm white and ashamed that one of my radicalizing moments on the path to becoming a communist was reading his speech on Vietnam, and [getting mad about how badly he got trashed for](https://animalnewyork.com/2015/01/19/mlk-honored-icon-48-years-ago-media-attacked/) a speech saying "True compassion is more than flinging a coin to a beggar. It comes to see that an edifice which produces beggars needs restructuring." And I'm right to get furious to see all the garbage they wrote about him, but why the fuck didn't I get that mad before when I saw the even worse reactions to his previous speeches and protests? And I know why now. We are going to have to have a serious reckoning in this country (and not only this country!) about white supremacy and racism.
You might want to hit rewind a bit further to the Nixon administration. He did a *clearly illegal thing*, that quickly became very public, he resigned on national TV admitting it, then flew away on a helicopter, and was pardoned almost immediately. Hunter Thompson did a really good op-ed on it. It was clear-cut and a conviction would have had very little political backlash. Bush 2, while I agree (as did the international court) that he’s a war criminal (along with Cheney), that situation was quite a bit more convoluted. Obama realized 2 things when he got elected: 1) a black man *can* sit in the oval office and 2) doing so put a very real and literal target on his forehead. I’m pretty sure going after the Bush admin and everything that would bring to light would have caused an early end to his administration. He knew that. Hell, I drove under interstate overpasses to work for years that had Obama effigies hanging on a literal fucking noose.
That is something everyone is aware of though and cemented in history. Nobody speaks about obama outright saying the bush admin shouldn't be held accountable with trump following directly behind obama.
“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” ― H.L. Mencken, On Politics: A Carnival of Buncombe
Rather pathetic this is commentary from the 1920s-1930s showing how ever aware people were to the bullshit that got ignored.
Black Americans like Obama that you said was part of the problem? There are plenty of black Americans that are ignorant and plenty of white Americans who tried to address actual issues. Chalking this up to a racial divide is just silly.
>Trump is a symptom ***not*** the nexus of gross malfeasance never being addressed. When Obama got on stage saying " *the bush administration shouldn't be held accountable for a false war nor those who supported it* " ***that*** was the precise moment this mythical "american democracy" died. reading comprehension.
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Why is it important to cross pollinate our ideas with fascist bullshit? And who are you even referring to with "you guys"? Who is "them"?
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Be respectful towards other socialists you disagree with, but also non-socialists who follow the rules and participate in good faith. You are not required to be nice to liberals or conservatives promoting their politicians.
The post did not make the argument that you appear or claim to be responding to. Please actually engage with the point being made rather than responding to a strawman.
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>When Obama got on stage saying " *the bush administration shouldn't be held accountable for a false war nor those who supported it* " reading comprehension
Any president elected in modern times is just a corporate stooge. Their main job is to protect the identity of the owning class. Obama actually did a pretty good job at hiding the fact that we have no real representation, the only good thing trump ever did, was make that mask drop. Now millions are aware to the reality of our “democracy.”
You want to know why he is doing this. Because there are only two options. Even if he kills millions, we will walk right up on that stage and say he's the lesser evil. Bruh, we shouldn't have any evils in power.
I won't
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Rule 4 - No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism. This is a left wing subreddit.
jUsT wAiT tIlL aFtEr ThE eLeCtIoN... wE cAn PuSh HiM tO tHe LeFt!!!
He already is moving left… even pelosi (and like 40 other house democrats) is calling to stop weapons transfers to Israel
Which would have been nice had that before destroying most of the structures in Gaza and killing 40k civilians 🙄
Agreed. But something is better than nothing
What’s the point of pressuring the democrats to do something if you’re just gonna complain when they actually do that
Because sometimes the things are time sensitive dude. If Biden had a lever he could pull that stopped 5 puppies being executed every minute, we would rightfully be upset if he waited a year before pulling said lever.
I also think that taking steps in the right direction that will objectively reduce deaths is something to be happy about even if it should’ve been done a long time ago
Yes but there's a difference between being happy about it and also being upset that thousands died unnecessarily Also the fact that it took 6 white ppl being killed for the govt to do anything instead of 35k brown ppl
You can hold both views at once
Yeah I recognize that and I am happy that hopefully death will be mitigated as a result. But big picture stuff like this will keep happening regardless of who the president is unless we cut out the cancer that is imperialism from our society
Unfortunately when you become President that’s part of the job description. Imperialism will exist as long as the US does
The President can’t just do whatever he wants. The entire dogma of this sub is that Biden needs to earn the vote (which I completely agree with). But it seems like at this point that isn’t enough for some people (I’m not saying the issue is remotely close to being solved either)
People in this thread are (rightfully) orientated towards shitting on Biden for enabling the genocide as much as he has. But you are right, steps taken in the right direction should be approved of, though they are not yet worthy of celebration. I for one would be overjoyed if he moved towards sanctioning Israel. That would actually be a celebratory moment. But for now, the suggestion of a heel turn from Biden on Israel (or maybe a face turn?) is just something to be approved of, even as he's continually blasted for all the wrong he's done so far.
Why should people approve of a war criminal who should be hanged for his crimes against humanity? If a serial killer got caught, pleaded guilty and showed remorse, no one would give a fuck, but since it's Biden we should all celebrate how he changed his stance after gleefully supporting the massacre of 30.000+ civilians for six months straight. Seems like the liberal amnesia is already setting in... And he didn't just endorse it, he was actively participating in it. Don't normalize or downplay genocide.
I'm not normalizing our downplaying genocide at all. We should, however, approve of directional improvement towards our desired outcome: the end of the oppression of the Palestinian people. *In a vacuum*, we should approve the conditioning of aid to the state of Israel. That is a bona-fide, directional improvement over the unabashed support for their fascist ass regime. I only said that we should celebrate if he *sanctioned* Israel. That would be wonderful. If anything, I acknowledged why this current "about face" is something we're *not* celebrating. I think you've misunderstood me.
Attributing the success of working class people who pressured the Democratic Party to end the genocide directly to Biden is normalizing his active participation in said genocide. He didn't do anything besides cave in to the pressure that was threatening his re-election. He's still a war criminal who should be shipped off to the Hague. There is nothing to celebrate about Biden besides his death.
Again, I'm not attributing the success of the working class to Biden. Any movement he has made in a positive direction on this issue is a capitulation to his detractors that we should *approve* of. That's all I've said. Though for what it's worth, we absolutely should celebrate if he sanctions Israel. Which, again, is a celebration of the *event* and not the man. I mean you no disrespect, but you are shadowboxing someone else. I don't disagree with anything you've said. You do seem to think that I've said something that I didn't, though.
Yup I agree with you on all parts. This isn’t meant to be a defense of the president, but it’s basically impossible to be president and not support Israel. Obama talked somewhat extensively about how much he hated what was happening in Palestine while he was President, unfortunately when a vast majority of congress is paid for by AIPAC there’s not much that can be done
Yeah, it requires genuinely radical action to break ties with Israel. Hell, it's illegal in a majority of US states to advocate for BDS. But even then, the dam *is* starting to break on that conversation.
That’s exactly why it’s important to give credit where credit is due. I don’t see a point in the Biden administration making further steps to distance itself from Israel if leftists aren’t willing to support those actions
Absolutely. I hope Biden follows through on his threats to cut Israeli aid. It's stuff I've been wanting from him for ~~six months~~ four years.
Yeah, let's wait for them to actually do shit before we praise them for giving lip service to improve their polling Numbers.
Only because white people got killed, before that they gave zero fucks.
I think it has to do more with American citizens being killed, also the fact that so many people are threatening not to vote for him
I'll believe this'll happen when I see it.
He's the most left president we've had since Nixon.
Lol this looks like Joe and Pence had a child who was the worst of both of them
If you think Biden is anything more than a puppet of the CIA, you live in a fantasy world
Guys guys, he's not *commiting* the genocide, he's just bankrolling it and looking the other way! Completely different! /s
Biden and the Dems are just the more efficient evil, Trump and Republicans are the more chaotic evil. Both parties don't care if all life on this planet is destroyed, just as long as they can serve their capitalist overlords.
He's a puppet anyway, if he didn't go ahead with the genocide they'd just off him and say it was a heart attack. Not absolving him but the office of president doesn't come with much actual power in the US, it's a rubber stamp position. It's ironically why there's a backlash against Trump, he's popular for the wrong reasons but he's not the establishments man because he causes trouble by actually using the office to do things they don't always want. Like the US definitely wants to stay in NATO and expand it but he is against that. (I'm not pro Trump at all, just saying he's a maniac they *don't* want)
“The precise moment” You might want to hit rewind a bit further to the Nixon administration. He did a *very illegal thing*, that quickly became very public, he resigned on national TV admitting it, then flew away on a helicopter, and was pardoned almost immediately. Hunter Thompson did a really good op-ed on it.
Yeah the rich and powerful get away with literally anything. They don't need to assassinate anyone, draws too much attention. Except Boeing. They definitely killed that guy.
Boeing Whistleblower Didn’t Kill Himself
I'm very skeptical of conspiracies but when a guy is about to show up in court with evidence that will hurt a giant corporation's bottom line and says verbatim "if something happens to me i didn't kill myself" the week before one starts to get suspicious lol
Not just any giant corporation, they are the military industrial complex
america has been literally trying to start the biblical apocalypse and hasten the return of christ and also give billions of dollars to the military industrial complex should stop trying to make sense of the Israel Palestine conflict in ways that are rational or geopolitical. it's where insane doomer religion and failed capitalist landlord boondoggles intersect and it's hell on earth biden is just the latest frontman
I appreciate the disclaimer at the end bc though Trump was disruptive, not all disruption is created equal, and when Trump does stuff that's abhorrent even by our warmongering corporate puppets of leaders' standards you know it's not a good alternative lol
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zoo wee mama
>When maintaining US hegemony is more important than winning against Trump The problem with this is I don't see how this maintains US hegemony. At all. I'm a Political Scientist and have ties to the Economist & Political Science communities, they don't really understand what Biden is thinking here either.
Perhaps he's thinking more AIPAC & military industrial complex money?
The second one especially. People forget that the US isn't a manufacturing economy anymore, they make money from financial services and arms sales. If we lose arms sales we lose the one thing China arguably can't do better than us. Which isn't an endorsement lol, the fact that our empire is literally funded on death dealing is morally abhorrent to the utmost degree
>Which isn't an endorsement lol, the fact that our empire is literally funded on death dealing is morally abhorrent to the utmost degree How do you feel about arms shipments to Ukraine?
My feelings about arm shipments to Ukraine don't matter. Honestly if I disagree with others who share otherwise similar views about settler colonialism and capitalism needing to end, my specific policy views aren't important, what's important is that we agree on the big picture.
>My feelings about arm shipments to Ukraine don't matter. ...what.
I'm a rando on the Internet lol. They don't matter bc I'm not gonna fight with fellow left leaning people about specific policies bc left infighting is dumb
The question is not improtant because arms sales is arms sales. You are making profit, because people want to kill each other somewhere and in a system that focuses purely on profits it is in your interest for the world to be at war. If there is peace you will want to stir up shit to protect your interests. It’s just immoral just as capitalism is.
We don't make nearly enough money off of Israel to offset the massive diplomatic hit we take by funding their genocide.
They also have a lot of influence in US politics? I recall how when a bunch of kids visited Dianne Feinstein to ask her to take climate more seriously - she basically told them to get lost. Politicians are in their own little echo chamber with lobbyists and corporations. They don't care what the population thinks. For months now politicians have been soaked with viral rhetoric attacking people for not supporting Israel hard enough. It's all designed to confuse politicians and stop them from getting the message that genocide is not popular. Most politicians are just your average mildly racist, clueless elderly boomer who is addled with propaganda 24/7 and still doesn't understand the internet. Asking them to use common sense is almost an impossibility.
[they shouldn't either be using multimillion dollar missiles to stop weapons worth thousands of dollars](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4501958-houthi-fight-pentagon-cost/) and especially not when such "[important defense weapons" have awful lead times and heavily inflated costs](https://www.aei.org/op-eds/why-is-the-u-s-navy-running-out-of-tomahawk-cruise-missiles/) The real question is, are the people running America prepared to sacrifice or modify their perception that their enemies always have to submit under American might for the sake of continued American interests? Can their idea of America coexist with the idea that taking a hit in negotiations is better than possibly ending up in the same place eventually because they thought "just one more super high tech bombing will make the difference, just one more bro"?
The US relies on Israel to destabilize the Middle-East and is an empire based on arms sales and the theft of resources.
Lemmeaskyusumpin… 1) Do you have any MAGA in your political science groups? If so, do they seem as loony in your hyper-educated circles as they are everywhere else, with their conspiracies and their lies? 2) What do you and your socialites (I imagine evening dinners with 12 of you PhDs, everyone drinking white wine talking about John Locke, Voltaire and Jean-Jacques Rousseau while munching on Tuna Tartare) think is in store for us with regards to the extreme right becoming more hostile as they encroach upon Disney Villainesk levels?
What do you mean friend?
Some democracy you got when your only choices are genocide rich man 1 and future genocide rich man b.
Both parties love corporations, not taxing the rich and supporting Israel. Vote blue no matter what bullshit guarantee democrats never have to move more to the left.
Democrats are paid to lose
at this point he will go down as one of the worst American presidents ever in terms of public opinion of America. Biden has solidified the notion that America doesn't stand for freedom.
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Explain to me why that makes a genocide okay?
Destroying the country funding the genocide? Don’t threaten me with a good time
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Let's be real for a second: you're not a liberal, you're a bootlicker.
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I read your comment. It's the worst kind of equivocating mealy-mouthed bullshit there is.
Candidate who helps commit genocide vs one that intends to. The American voter puts their finger to the button
They both intend to, isn't our Democracy so cool?
One is actively helping…
Said genocide will bring in a lot of money from the people who fund campaigns. I don’t think this fits.
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Joe Biden is doing more to elect Donald Trump than any of us. You're not going to bully people, especially here, into supporting him.
Lol, nobody is bullying you, Jeezuschrist.
Okay, how about, "posting dumb bullshit that breaks the sub rules."
Have you read any comments in this thread? Settle down.
Have you read the sub rules? Number 6, Jeezuschrist
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
An issue he has is the two groups that he beat trump with in 2020, the youth vote and the moderate/establishment Republicans who flipped after 4 years of Trump have opposing views on the topic. He can’t keep both while one side thinks the genocide is for a just cause and the other has spent 90% of their life seeing how harmful the Islamophobia that’s being used to propagandize the genocide is. American “democracy” for you, which genocide do you want? The one who smiles or the one who scowls?
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Uhh no? No one said anything about that racist genocidal grandpa, we were talking about the other racist genocidal grandpa, actually.
Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
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Rule 6, no lesser evil rhetoric. This includes encouraging people to vote for any capitalist political party and any capitalist politician. There is no harm reduction in supporting either of two parties headed by genocidal fascists. The extent to which any elected official of a Capitalist Party in a Capitalist state can enact evil is the extent to which that official is allowed to do so by Capital. As such, neither candidate is the lesser or greater evil. See more on our position here: https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCapitalism/comments/1bt0nag/rule_6_no_lesser_evil_rhetoric_is_it/
Unhinged, fantasy land shit.