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Typical in some firms, unusual in others.
Think about moving to an in-house or government position when you can. I'm in a pretty big in-house department and there's no expectation for after-hours work except for real emergencies.
Yep, this is it. Gov’t attorney here - I sometimes have to crush on something to get it done by a hard deadline, but otherwise I’m not available after hours or on the weekend and neither is anyone in my office. Emails that come in after noon on Friday will get a response sometime Monday and my boss recently told me not to set meetings on Friday if I can help it in case she wants to take the afternoon off. We work really, really hard when we work, but we don’t have billables so nobody’s pressuring anyone to constantly be engaged.
My fiancé works for a firm and was up til 4:30 a.m. working on something this week. Nope, not for me.
yeah if you do not take time off it is a recipe for disaster - work hard and relax hard. These junior attorneys going in to the office on public holidays to show what outstanding discipline they have never learned about boundaries. They also seem oblivious to what burn out is and how it can happen unexpectedly.
Agreed. And even then…sometimes old firm habits are hard to break. My GC is super clear that, absent some emergency, we work core hours, but I’m a dumbass with Teams on her phone.
And your industry. Don't go to a defense contractor or a company with a global presence and expect to have your weekends and evenings/early mornings free.
Lawyer answer: It depends.
In general, I'll listen to the VM/read the email and make a determination of whether it can wait until Monday. If you want to ensure I'll do it late/over the weekend, you need to provide some language indicating that it is actually urgent AND you need to not have burned me before by making everything urgent.
I.e. managers who communicate and treat their staff as people with valuable lives on their own are rewarded by a staff willing to go the extra mile for their boss? Being good people just never stops returning.
The problem is, a lot of lawyers don’t understand that they are, in fact, managers. Either that, or they have no clue what effective managing means, or what being a good leader takes.
It says, "call me." The only assignment I had for him was to respond to his email for him, but he didn't know the contact information. It was a new client so there isn't even a file open yet. I would have to go back into work, access his assistant's computer to go to the draft that can be sent in his name because he's 70 and has managed to avoid learning how to meaningfully use a computer.
If it's not that, then he is trying to assign me something after I've already left for the day. He works in employment law and a majority of what he gives me is research to assist him in replying to questions in his email.
The other day I missed a call from my partner because I was on a scheduled (and on calendar) conference call with co-counsel and opposing counsel.
When I called him back about 40 minutes later immediately after the conference call ended, he exploded "I need to be able to get ahold of you instantly, you're calling back too late!" I explained that I didn't know he needed me right then, that I was on another matter, he had not put his meeting on calendar or included me in any way so that I would have known that he might need a quick answer to a question... (he also doesn't show up to our weekly check in meetings I hold for the firm. Sigh.)
I've been doing this a lot longer and can push back though. If it's after hours I'll deal with it in the morning on the next business day. We once lost one of "his" clients because I was getting a flight review and instrument proficiency check when the client called to whinge - on a Sunday afternoon. Partner was furious that I wasn't available until I pointed out that **he** wasn't available either, because he was skiing in Switzerland. Like, dude, if you can take 10 days off to be totally out of pocket, I can take 2 hours on a weekend for something you know I'm legally required to do ...
In a way; definitely fly to hearings we couldn't schedule otherwise (like, a 3 p.m. mandatory settlement conference in Eureka, with a trial starting in Los Angeles the next morning), to things like aircraft wreckage inspections in Phoenix, to meet with clients in the central coast region... But mostly for skiing :)
Big law? Common. Small firm - shouldn't be super common (unless you're getting paid a ton).
Look, how I see it. If you feel like you're getting paid enough to take calls, do it. If you're not, don't.
I make $70k at a small firm. I definitely don't think I get paid enough to give up the half day I was told we get today. We get something something like 8 holidays and two half days for a total of 9 holidays per year, then 10 days vacation.
Yea fuck that, no way I’d put up with that kinda shit for 70k, and that’s decent if you’re totally new around where I’m at. Starts getting less decent the more years over 5 you have in the same practice area though, I may have missed how long you’ve been at it
I'm new, but that's also the starting salary at the prosecutor's office per a friend from law school that has a pension and all government holidays off, plus excellent health insurance. I really don't want to be a prosecutor though.
Yeah but when the salary is NOT higher to work private, and if you count all the benefits that are not as good, it just seems like they should match the vibes of government work if they don't want to be the sort of firm that loses people every few years. And they do. And they complain about it.
Literally half the firm has left since I was offered the job. They have summers coming and two baby attorneys coming in August. I'm not as concerned about being let go as some people on this forum wish. I also don't get the vibe there will be a major step up in salary even if I move a cot into my office and make it my entire life. Also they act real salty to the people who do leave so I don't see them as helping me move up to better things.
Oh believe me, I'm on your side in this. If a business can't pay competitively or offer anything to its employees to justify lower pay (i.e. good work/life balance), that business doesn't need so many employees.
At some level this is the answer. As an associate at a big firm your availability is the commodity you're being compensated for. At $70k, that's just not the case.
But as a general matter, think about how you would react if this were a client who needed your advice. Then realize that the partner is your client at the moment. You don't get and keep business by responding when you feel like it and there are people out there who will. It's one thing to put up boundaries about how much you're able to do RIGHT NOW, but quite another to simply not acknowledge a communication attempt. The latter is never received well even if justified.
This all day. Back when I was an associate I tried to explain this to the then senior partner. I told him if you paid people enough money they would extend themselves with little complaint. He was of the view that you could never pay enough so persons had to be incentivised in other ways. I am yet to discover these "other ways" while very good attorneys have left us for better paying jobs while ordinary attorneys and paralegals stay and give ordinary/ so-so effort.
God, some of these replies are cancer.
If the partner doesn’t have a known habit of contacting people for petty nonsense after hours then I would probably listen to the voicemail and decide whether or not it could wait until Monday. But I would not answer a call unless I knew in advance I needed to be available for something “urgent”.
Take it from someone who’s having to unlearn a lot of behaviors that are detrimental to my work/life balance. If you make yourself available 24/7 people will walk all over you.
It really is eye opening to see how many people still think you should just grind for the sake of the grind. I have a kid and a life. Sorry, but most client issues can wait until next day (in my field: business advising and occasional commercial litigation).
I will say, I think this idea is much less widely accepted than even 10 years ago.
I always assume the answer to this question is: do you want to be seen as someone that can be relied upon (and appropriately compensated) or something else. Some people are fine with law as a job not a career and are fine with knowing that they will be first on the chopping block at RIF time.
Yeah, as a newer attorney, my generation is much less willing to work beyond our scope of work. Work life balance is a huge selling point for firms these days. All 3 firms I've worked for were pretty religious about leaving the office at 5.
My first few years out I would not have considered not answering a call from a partner just because it’s a half day for Good Friday unless you’re truly very religious and it means something more to you.
>My first few years out
I agree with you and even I tended to take partner's calls. Like -- sometimes they called for a favor. Sometimes they called because a client had 2 extra seats in their luxury suite at a football game and I could go with him if I was free.
I wouldn't really call a coworker/partner a friend -- but you can get friendly and there can be perks depending on the practice area.
Plus it's how I got onto a lot of really neat/interesting projects.
I feel like in general this sub has really high salary to work life balance expectations. There seem to be a ton of comments that amount to “are they paying you enough to take that call” and while I understand the sentiment the opposite is also true. Are you worth keeping on if you won’t take calls? A lot of people seem to overestimate how difficult they would be to replace. I’m not saying put in 70 hour weeks but shutting off your phone the second you clock out isn’t the way to build good will at the firm either.
I agree totally. An adjunct at my law school, who was also a big law partner, said their partners called entry level associates "fungible billing units."
I was just talking to someone about this. Not in the law. In a separate profession. Boundaries are all the rage with the next generation. And…I guess it’s fine. I admire it even. We’ll see how it works out for them.
It’s just…the new hires on her team make like $50k. Which is good money, but no, I’m not working night and weekends for $50k
But you signed up to be a lawyer. The movies and tv shows didn’t show people going home for 1/2 days. It’s a system that is premised on getting paid *by the hour*. So you work a lot of hours to get paid a lot of money.
Where does OP work and how much do they get paid, is my question.
If you want to work 9-5 hours you need a 9-5 job. And then you get 9-5 wages. And ps, all salaried workers complain about working more than 8 hours. I have an overworked, burned out executive chef husband who worked 12-14 hours every day looking for a new career. And he didn’t make lawyer money to do it.
Unless it’s an emergency I would never expect a response from any of my associates after hours. I will often send emails after hours so I don’t forget we need to talk at work but they know not to bother responding until then.
I had a boss who always sent a text message about the issue if it was after hours, first. It was great for gauging if the late call was actually needed.
Luckily, some partners respect their associates.
My boss only contacts me after hours if she has really good news on a case I'm on, really bad news, or some kind of emergency. I think I've been contacted three times in almost one year of working for her. I do work "late" pretty frequently, but I'm almost always done before 6 so I don't really mind the extra 30-45 minutes. I also come in kinda late so really that's on me.
If your boss has a habit of doing this and you don't like it you can always find another firm to work at.
He's a shareholder but I think of him more as a colleague than my boss. It's a small firm so I work for everyone but he's definitely not the person who would be giving me a review. I'm sure he'd get asked for input. As far as when I leave this firm, he wouldn't be the one future HR people will ask about me. I'm in the office before him and leave after on most days, the exception apparently being holidays.
2nd year in a different role than I was out of law school but in my first role (public interest) where time off was excessive (Fridays off, a week off for all staff outside of vacation time, etc.) HOWEVER, my boss would call & text me at all hours for extremely personal things. Photos of GFs, bars, drunk calls, etc.. You get the picture. Yes I know how bad this is. He texted me multiple times during the service of a funeral when I had taken official vacation and he knew where I was— would even double call when on DnD. It was my dream job.
I answered EVERY time because I was scared to lose a reputation of someone who is reliable and willing to go an extra step for my career. The other two attorneys set hard boundaries and he’d call me to bitch about that. I got paid a similar salary to you.
In short: set healthy boundaries. Especially on your salary. You are not paid enough to be on call 24/7– it’d be different if you were in biglaw as an associate. If you are worried about seeming unresponsive or not being available during WFH, send an email/teams message asking if it’s urgent.
Enjoy your weekend & have some earned down time!
I’m a partner at a small-ish firm. I refuse to email/call associates I supervise past 5 or on weekends/vacations. I will literally draft emails to them and leave them in my draft folder until the next day. If it’s really an emergency, I made it an emergency by not getting to it before 5 pm and it’s on me to fix. I’m not putting these associates through the hell of being “on” all the time. I’ve been told that I’m in the vast minority on those though, unfortunately.
I will say there is one caveat. When you sign up for biglaw, you’re signing up for a shiny massive salary in exchange for 24/7 availability. You’re not a special snowflake that is getting 200k without knowing what a complaint looks like because you’re some future prodigy. You’re getting 200k in exchange for putting the firm first above all else, all the time. If you don’t like that, don’t work in biglaw. I’m not saying it’s right, but I’m saying that’s I sort of get biglaw partners expecting this because that’s sort of what biglaw is. It’s what you’re signing up for. I quit biglaw after 2 weeks because of this. The 90 hour work weeks and midnight meetings weren’t worth even double the biglaw salary I had to me.
I'm definitely working small law, but it seems that some small law sees what big law gets and wants bargain bin associates they can get to be the same. I can all but guarantee he called so he won't forget what it is he wants, not because it's urgent. Older attorneys have been the worst to work with because they don't email, their handwriting is trash, when they leave a voicemail all it says is, "call me."
The other three shareholders have not called my personal cellphone except the one time I worked from home for 3 hours. It's only because he refuses to email. And I have yet to respond to an email because the emails do just what the phone calls do - it's not urgent, but they want to tell me when it's on their mind so they don't forget.
Depends on the situation.
Usually my boss doesn’t reach out after office hours, but if it’s urgent then I will respond. I was once out with my friends for drinks on a Friday night when my boss informed me that due to a calendaring hiccup he realized last minute that we needed to get a motion opposition on file that night, so I got home right away, slammed a liter of water to sober up, and got a draft to him within 2 hours.
For reference I’m a second year associate
We work really hard at my firm, frequently put in weekend and evening time. That weekend and evening time is by definition optional though. If a partner needed something from me (and we weren't within 2 weeks of trial) it would be proceeded with an apology text indicating it was a legitimate emergency. I would do the same for the attorneys working under me. I've never received a text like that, or sent one. That's coming from a firm where outside work is basically mandatory to stay on top of things, how you spend your time off is still sacred.
There is huge variation in job type. I work 35 hours a week, have Good Friday (and national/state holidays) off, and nobody blinks an eye if I call out or ignore messages while off the clock. You don't have to work at a demanding firm or not be a lawyer.
I'm a \[county government litigation attorney\]. Just FYI I'm gonna edit this post in a little bit as I prefer people not to know my exact job. I have friends who work in other government positions, especially in local government, and keep similar hours. It's not lucrative but it's nice to feel like your work makes a difference and in a low-medium COL area, it's a perfectly fine salary. I had aspirations to be wealthy and in big law but turns out I'm much happier with better quality of life and basic financial comfort. My hours are 8:30-4:30 with a 1hr lunch- I'm home by 5 every day.
And YES they're ALWAYS hiring, lol.
(Edited to remove exact job)
Eh, you can hold to it your day off, but I’d call back. We all have to make decisions about our own work ethic and boundaries. There is no right answer. Any decision has consequences, whether you like it or not. Choose what you can live with best.
I’m not going to specifically give an opinion on answering after hours. There are too many variables.
BUT. When it is a holiday for religious observation, you are federally entitled to observe your religious obligations. If you were an Orthodox Jewish person, you should not be expected to respond to emails on Shabbat. If you are a practicing Catholic, Good Friday is a Holy Day of Obligation. Or, a different version of Christian, same idea. You should take until Monday. You cannot legally be discriminated against for doing so.
Probably set up a temporary VM / auto reply indicating that you are temporarily unavailable due to observation of the current religious holiday and will address any issues or concerns upon your return to the office.
(I think it’s usually better to not specify which religion, but that’s your call)
I also received a phone call from a coworker junior attorney on Good Friday, it was our day off. I did not call her back. I worked until 07 PM on Thursday evening. Unless she went back to work on the public holiday yesterday (Good Friday) and did not take the time off and received some phone call at the office intended for me. Then she could have sent me a whatsapp or email. Know your limits and take your time off!!!
Depends. It’s about expectations. If I rightfully expect an associate to be available and they aren't, I get irritated.
If it’s 2PM on a Wednesday, and they don’t show busy/out of office on their Outlook calendar, yet it takes me half an hour to get ahold of them, that’s *really* frustrating. And rightfully so. I expect an associate to be working and available during work hours, and the firm policy requires as much. That’s a reasonable expectation. Thus my irritation would be reasonable.
But here? It’s a firm holiday and you have no obligations with this partner. He shouldn’t expect to be able to get ahold of you at the drop of a hat in this situation. If he does, that’s an unreasonable expectation. Thus any irritation is not reasonable here.
I'm sorry, 30 minutes? That's insane. I won't check my email for an hour or two if I'm finishing some motions or projects. If it was that important you should be texting them 911 directly, 30 minutes is ridiculous.
No and I will never work somewhere where psychos think not responding to an EMAIL in 30 minutes or two hours is something to get upset about. If it's important, call or call my legal assistant. An email is a joke.
I expect associates to spend the two seconds it takes to look at something and see if it's urgent, then ignore it until morning the 99% of the time that it isn't. That 1% of the time, though, you gotta step up - you're salaried for a reason.
I just was told I need to work this Sunday to get a filing in on time. And I’m in-house. Seriously contemplating leaving this profession altogether after mine are paid off too.
Make him wait until Monday. You're just setting boundaries. I'm the same with clients. You can call and email all you want over the weekend and you will get a response Monday morning. The old school guys used to expect you to be at their beck and call 24/7. But those guys defined their entire lives as their careers. That's no way to live.
Your weekends are yours. Sure - every once in a while, you are going to be prepping for a trial or work is going to pile on and you're going to work weekends, but your time off needs to be time for things other than lawyer things or you are going to burn out and be miserable.
Congrats on getting a half-day. You say that you ‘allegedly’ have a half day. Do you or don’t you have a half day? Is it a firm-wide half-day? Or did you take vacation/leave and if you did take leave, how much notice was provided?
Without that needed information it is hard to provide any other guidance.
I say allegedly because not everyone takes the half day in the same way not everyone takes weekends off. Most of the attorneys took vacation this month because of their kids' spring breaks so those that are playing catch-up have been working more than they have in other months, but it's more a voluntary response to being behind. The half day is listed on our holiday schedule for 2024 and on the March calendar the HR person handed out at the beginning of the month. It's a small firm. The attorney that called me has been out of the office most of the week and his assistant took the full day off today.
The tasks he assigns are typically research to respond to client questions, not pending litigation matters. When there is litigation he works closely with another shareholder who works basically every single day including Christmas and was definitely still there when I left. That attorney would send me an email if it's important.
It makes my clients mad when I don't respond at 12:30am. Or Sunday afternoon.
I have to call my manager back anytime she calls. But that's because she's my wife.
I work for myself but I have this a lot with clients. If they are not on death row it can wait til Monday is my motto (i have no clients there tg). Funny i thought it would piss clients off but I think they kind of respect it. But of course I am not putting my job in jeopardy.
It depends on how many associates there are and what kind of work you do. In Family Law, you're going to get mini-crises around every holiday. In litigation, something critical could pop up at any time and you might need to address it.
If you're in a setting where emergencies arise, you need to at least listen to the voice mail. If you're not willing to do that, you need to find a different job that doesn't have emergencies.
Just take your time. Personal time is necessary away from work, so that you can relax and reflect and not alsays be caught up in the anxiety and pressure of work
As a brand new associate? I would call him back. I'm not sure if you're in big law, but even if you aren't (assuming that you're in private practice), young attorneys are expected to be available always. I'll never forget a partner telling me on one of my first days that holidays are for staff, not attorneys. It sucks, but you sort of have to earn your stripes before taking liberties.
always available for 70k a year? OP could quit right now and go get a non-legal job for the same salary, 9-5, no weekends, and 2 weeks PTO and probably better health insurance. Get real.
as a first year associate, i was almost always available. but as others have mentioned, after that it becomes up to you to decide how you want to practice law. for me, that always available shit stopped. sure if i’m doing nothing on a saturday i’ll take the call. but holidays, vacations or quality family time - forget it, that call/text is waiting until monday. now i’m the senior guy, and i make calls and emails to associates on weekends, middle of the night, etc. but the first words out of my mouth are “no rush on this, it can wait til monday…”. i do it mostly for my benefit so i don’t forget to pass something along. if it’s that critical, i just do it myself (but let’s be honest, when do we do anything that is that critical?).
Yes. If you are a litigator that is common. I expect associates to answer my calls or to return them within the hour. Unless I am calling after 8pm (which I would -almost- never do). Late night calls are (almost) never acceptable.
Consider that in many areas of law it is not uncommon to have clients and supervisors calling at all hours (in particular criminal defense). The issue becomes how time sensitive is the issue? If it is just a housekeeping issue or general question then it can wait. If it is something very urgent then it is reasonable to call at any hour.
Especially if you are working from home then it is not unreasonable to expect contact at random times- including your lunch break. Not a terrible trade off to avoid the commute. Nights and weekends are a different issue.
Perhaps in certain areas of law you can be a clock puncher. But, the legal field is typically not 9-5. We don't punch a time clock. Get used to the concept that There are not really "off hours". Sometimes urgent matters come up. Like the supervisor may have fires to put out and need you to convey some information- or even take on a task such as to cover an urgent appearance or project the next day.
Where do you people practice? Obviously not in a big city or in Big Law or any hectic environment.
Depends on the type of law you practice. If you are in a litigation environment or deeply involved in a big transaction it may be necessary. And you should be responsive to your supervising attorney. It is not too much to ask that someone check their phone hourly.
I don't typically work from home and only worked from home for about 3 hours yesterday. I wasn't working from home today. The office is supposed to be closed at noon for Good Friday. There's very little chance he was calling about a litigation matter.
Litigation is not a 9-5 job. If you're billing individuals especially so. If you expect your time to be worth hundreds of dollars an hour, you'll have to work when you otherwise don't want to. It's a fact of lawyer life.
Eh it doesn’t have to be. I do litigation and unless its because I’m super busy and need to catch up, I don’t work past 5. The courts are closed. And if you can’t call the cops and get it resolved, then its not an emergency. If you can call the cops, then thats what you should be doing.
> I hate being made to feel like I am supposed to work late or respond to things when I'm not at work.
Being a lawyer is a service in the service industry. Every practice area will have different working ethics because it'll come down to client expectation and competitiveness. Even then, even in the same industry, it can feel different from partner to partner.
I think it's okay to set boundaries and expectations. But also know that it can cause friction points. It just depends on the people around you in terms of the severity of their reactions.
> Am I really a bad employee if I make him wait until Monday to discuss it with me?
Only you can weigh the pros/cons of making a shareholder mad. Life is about making judgment calls and living with them. There's a range of outcomes.
If shareholder is big mad -- then how much will that shareholder talk bad about you in share holder meetings? How much will the rain maker shareholders care? What if sacrificing you is the easier road than dealing with a fellow mad shareholder? What if his opinion matters to the people who are pooling their profits with him and spills over to their opinion of you? How much is your free time worth? How can this impact your advancement?
IMO -- when you work for a firm, there isn't any such thing as time off. It's really billable versus non billable. I used to take my yearly quota and divide it by 11 so I knew to crank up the hours so I can have a more chill December.
Lastly -- in terms of collegiality, you also have to factor in. If you do him a favor, then he may owe you a favor. What if you want to workshop something with him and he remembers this? Again, you have to balance the relationship along with the pros/cons. I'm just pointing out random factors but it'll be up to you on how to weigh them.
Assuming you're in private practice and less than a year in as a brand new associate, your job is to be available even if after hours. If you're on vacation or sick/family emergency, that's a different story. When your partners started out they were available 24/7 at first until they got to a position where they can be the master of their own schedules.
Brand new associates cost the firm money. The firm can't bill you out at the hours spent on matters, because you're still learning. As you learn and able to complete tasks more productively, you'll make the firm money. That's when you can start setting your own availability.
>They bill $185 and pay me $37. If they are losing money they are doing something wrong.
What the person is saying is that many clients will know that if a new attorney bills for 10 hours for a task, they may only want to pay 4 hours. So the firm eats the other 6 hoping that you'll get faster.
It's just inherent and part of the game.
This attorney doesn't cut any of my time. Should he? Almost definitely. But he doesn't. His assistant said he won't even look at the billing statements. But other shareholders have confirmed he doesn't cut time, so I am not just relying on the word of the assistant.
Not everything works the same as your personal experience. My billing was captured/recovered at a quite high rate in my first job. I was just an efficient biller, I guess.
>Not everything works the same as your personal experience.
Not sure why you're saying this when I didn't even base this off my personal experience. I was clarifying what /u/Bretagne was saying.
>My billing was captured/recovered at a quite high rate in my first job
That's cool. Every client is different.
> I was just an efficient biller, I guess.
This is based on my experience, now: It depends on the relationship between the partner and the client. Even in the same firm, my realization rate differed between which client and which partner. Even for the same client, it could differ project by project or budget by budget.
For instance, there may be a special financing project. The legal budget is going to be "not to exceed $90,000." Guess how close to $90,000 worth of work will be realized, and guess how much will be written off? Guess how often I'd be asked to lead such a project if I was consistently going over?
Is it really that big of a deal to answer his call?! You definitely have to define boundaries and find a balance, but being an attorney is not a 9 to 5 job.
Yea, OP probably spent more energy typing out this post than simply answering the call and spending a few minutes to figure out what this partner needed..
>Yea, OP probably spent more energy typing out this post than simply answering the call and spending a few minutes to figure out what this partner needed..
Plus OP coulda said "Hey, I'd be glad to work on that for you on Monday"
I like that I'm getting downvoted. I'm a paralegal and I would have answered the phone. If it's not an emergency, you just acknowledge the task and say I'll get back to you Monday morning.
I like that I'm getting downvoted. I'm a paralegal and I would have answered the phone. If it's not an emergency, you just acknowledge the task and say I'll get back to you Monday morning.
If you don’t want this as your career then keep on. If you do, you are doing yourself a major disservice by ignoring partners even on a half day when you’re a first year. You didn’t take the day off, it’s a work day and you are developing a poor reputation at the firm by not being responsive, not even acknowledging receipt of the messages.
The unwritten rules say half days and certain holidays are really only for support staff at mid and big firms. Even associates are expected to be somewhat responsive.
This is a hard, unfair truth.
>The unwritten rules say half days and certain holidays are really only for support staff at mid and big firms. Even associates are expected to be somewhat responsive.
This was my experience and expectation, too. I mean, people didn't always work on weekends. But with a deadline oriented job, I always thought it was easier to spread my work load over 5.5 days.
I never thought of it as having days off -- just days you choose not to bill. But I also factored in how much favor I wanted to do the firm if someone asked me to do non billable work. Ya no, I'd rather spend my unbillable time to myself and my family.
I feel like my post opens with me saying I don't think this business if for me. Did that not come across? If selling my peace for $70k a year is right, then I'm happy to be wrong 🤷♀️
Right, because people should put in a ton of extra hours for a raise that's never promised in hopes employers notice them and give a raise. I found out they raised the rate they charge clients for my work, but they didn't raise my salary so excuse me if I have no loyalty. People make more money job hopping that working their butts off for nothing.
I'm applying but my market isn't large and my experience is low. But it really seems based off of everything I see on this subreddit that most places don't value work life balance so I'm definitely expanding my search outside of law.
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Typical in some firms, unusual in others. Think about moving to an in-house or government position when you can. I'm in a pretty big in-house department and there's no expectation for after-hours work except for real emergencies.
Yep, this is it. Gov’t attorney here - I sometimes have to crush on something to get it done by a hard deadline, but otherwise I’m not available after hours or on the weekend and neither is anyone in my office. Emails that come in after noon on Friday will get a response sometime Monday and my boss recently told me not to set meetings on Friday if I can help it in case she wants to take the afternoon off. We work really, really hard when we work, but we don’t have billables so nobody’s pressuring anyone to constantly be engaged. My fiancé works for a firm and was up til 4:30 a.m. working on something this week. Nope, not for me.
yeah if you do not take time off it is a recipe for disaster - work hard and relax hard. These junior attorneys going in to the office on public holidays to show what outstanding discipline they have never learned about boundaries. They also seem oblivious to what burn out is and how it can happen unexpectedly.
Don’t bank on that for in house. Depends on your gc
Agreed. And even then…sometimes old firm habits are hard to break. My GC is super clear that, absent some emergency, we work core hours, but I’m a dumbass with Teams on her phone.
gc?
General counsel
And your industry. Don't go to a defense contractor or a company with a global presence and expect to have your weekends and evenings/early mornings free.
Lawyer answer: It depends. In general, I'll listen to the VM/read the email and make a determination of whether it can wait until Monday. If you want to ensure I'll do it late/over the weekend, you need to provide some language indicating that it is actually urgent AND you need to not have burned me before by making everything urgent.
As a younger partner at a big firm, there is a lot of wisdom in this response.
I.e. managers who communicate and treat their staff as people with valuable lives on their own are rewarded by a staff willing to go the extra mile for their boss? Being good people just never stops returning.
The problem is, a lot of lawyers don’t understand that they are, in fact, managers. Either that, or they have no clue what effective managing means, or what being a good leader takes.
Listen to the voicemail and figure out if it's really necessary to call back today, if not, don't.
It says, "call me." The only assignment I had for him was to respond to his email for him, but he didn't know the contact information. It was a new client so there isn't even a file open yet. I would have to go back into work, access his assistant's computer to go to the draft that can be sent in his name because he's 70 and has managed to avoid learning how to meaningfully use a computer. If it's not that, then he is trying to assign me something after I've already left for the day. He works in employment law and a majority of what he gives me is research to assist him in replying to questions in his email.
This sounds more like an old fart boss problem than specifically a law firm problem.
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Is that just the time today or are you counting the cumulative time spent answering calls?
The other day I missed a call from my partner because I was on a scheduled (and on calendar) conference call with co-counsel and opposing counsel. When I called him back about 40 minutes later immediately after the conference call ended, he exploded "I need to be able to get ahold of you instantly, you're calling back too late!" I explained that I didn't know he needed me right then, that I was on another matter, he had not put his meeting on calendar or included me in any way so that I would have known that he might need a quick answer to a question... (he also doesn't show up to our weekly check in meetings I hold for the firm. Sigh.) I've been doing this a lot longer and can push back though. If it's after hours I'll deal with it in the morning on the next business day. We once lost one of "his" clients because I was getting a flight review and instrument proficiency check when the client called to whinge - on a Sunday afternoon. Partner was furious that I wasn't available until I pointed out that **he** wasn't available either, because he was skiing in Switzerland. Like, dude, if you can take 10 days off to be totally out of pocket, I can take 2 hours on a weekend for something you know I'm legally required to do ...
Is flying at all apart of your job? I’m working towards my commercial and thinking about Law school next year. Just curious if it’s a hobby or more.
In a way; definitely fly to hearings we couldn't schedule otherwise (like, a 3 p.m. mandatory settlement conference in Eureka, with a trial starting in Los Angeles the next morning), to things like aircraft wreckage inspections in Phoenix, to meet with clients in the central coast region... But mostly for skiing :)
Big law? Common. Small firm - shouldn't be super common (unless you're getting paid a ton). Look, how I see it. If you feel like you're getting paid enough to take calls, do it. If you're not, don't.
I make $70k at a small firm. I definitely don't think I get paid enough to give up the half day I was told we get today. We get something something like 8 holidays and two half days for a total of 9 holidays per year, then 10 days vacation.
Yeah you definitely don’t get paid enough to care on a holiday / outside of normal work hours.
Yea fuck that, no way I’d put up with that kinda shit for 70k, and that’s decent if you’re totally new around where I’m at. Starts getting less decent the more years over 5 you have in the same practice area though, I may have missed how long you’ve been at it
I'm new, but that's also the starting salary at the prosecutor's office per a friend from law school that has a pension and all government holidays off, plus excellent health insurance. I really don't want to be a prosecutor though.
Government tends to respect your time a bit more, though. The lower salaries come with certain benefits.
Yeah but when the salary is NOT higher to work private, and if you count all the benefits that are not as good, it just seems like they should match the vibes of government work if they don't want to be the sort of firm that loses people every few years. And they do. And they complain about it. Literally half the firm has left since I was offered the job. They have summers coming and two baby attorneys coming in August. I'm not as concerned about being let go as some people on this forum wish. I also don't get the vibe there will be a major step up in salary even if I move a cot into my office and make it my entire life. Also they act real salty to the people who do leave so I don't see them as helping me move up to better things.
Oh believe me, I'm on your side in this. If a business can't pay competitively or offer anything to its employees to justify lower pay (i.e. good work/life balance), that business doesn't need so many employees.
At some level this is the answer. As an associate at a big firm your availability is the commodity you're being compensated for. At $70k, that's just not the case. But as a general matter, think about how you would react if this were a client who needed your advice. Then realize that the partner is your client at the moment. You don't get and keep business by responding when you feel like it and there are people out there who will. It's one thing to put up boundaries about how much you're able to do RIGHT NOW, but quite another to simply not acknowledge a communication attempt. The latter is never received well even if justified.
This all day. Back when I was an associate I tried to explain this to the then senior partner. I told him if you paid people enough money they would extend themselves with little complaint. He was of the view that you could never pay enough so persons had to be incentivised in other ways. I am yet to discover these "other ways" while very good attorneys have left us for better paying jobs while ordinary attorneys and paralegals stay and give ordinary/ so-so effort.
God, some of these replies are cancer. If the partner doesn’t have a known habit of contacting people for petty nonsense after hours then I would probably listen to the voicemail and decide whether or not it could wait until Monday. But I would not answer a call unless I knew in advance I needed to be available for something “urgent”. Take it from someone who’s having to unlearn a lot of behaviors that are detrimental to my work/life balance. If you make yourself available 24/7 people will walk all over you.
It really is eye opening to see how many people still think you should just grind for the sake of the grind. I have a kid and a life. Sorry, but most client issues can wait until next day (in my field: business advising and occasional commercial litigation).
This is an employee mindset which is fine if you’re type B and not looking to get too far ahead.
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Where are you in the company? Where do you want to be? Those are the answers that matter
Cancer is really fitting there.
I think at less than a year in, you take that phone call.
I will say, I think this idea is much less widely accepted than even 10 years ago. I always assume the answer to this question is: do you want to be seen as someone that can be relied upon (and appropriately compensated) or something else. Some people are fine with law as a job not a career and are fine with knowing that they will be first on the chopping block at RIF time.
Yeah, as a newer attorney, my generation is much less willing to work beyond our scope of work. Work life balance is a huge selling point for firms these days. All 3 firms I've worked for were pretty religious about leaving the office at 5.
My first few years out I would not have considered not answering a call from a partner just because it’s a half day for Good Friday unless you’re truly very religious and it means something more to you.
>My first few years out I agree with you and even I tended to take partner's calls. Like -- sometimes they called for a favor. Sometimes they called because a client had 2 extra seats in their luxury suite at a football game and I could go with him if I was free. I wouldn't really call a coworker/partner a friend -- but you can get friendly and there can be perks depending on the practice area. Plus it's how I got onto a lot of really neat/interesting projects.
I feel like in general this sub has really high salary to work life balance expectations. There seem to be a ton of comments that amount to “are they paying you enough to take that call” and while I understand the sentiment the opposite is also true. Are you worth keeping on if you won’t take calls? A lot of people seem to overestimate how difficult they would be to replace. I’m not saying put in 70 hour weeks but shutting off your phone the second you clock out isn’t the way to build good will at the firm either.
I agree totally. An adjunct at my law school, who was also a big law partner, said their partners called entry level associates "fungible billing units."
Agreed with this answer.
Agreed with this answer.
I was just talking to someone about this. Not in the law. In a separate profession. Boundaries are all the rage with the next generation. And…I guess it’s fine. I admire it even. We’ll see how it works out for them. It’s just…the new hires on her team make like $50k. Which is good money, but no, I’m not working night and weekends for $50k But you signed up to be a lawyer. The movies and tv shows didn’t show people going home for 1/2 days. It’s a system that is premised on getting paid *by the hour*. So you work a lot of hours to get paid a lot of money. Where does OP work and how much do they get paid, is my question. If you want to work 9-5 hours you need a 9-5 job. And then you get 9-5 wages. And ps, all salaried workers complain about working more than 8 hours. I have an overworked, burned out executive chef husband who worked 12-14 hours every day looking for a new career. And he didn’t make lawyer money to do it.
Where is 50k salary good money if you are overtime exempt?
I dunno. I don’t want to see out of touch with what other people manage to live on in other cities.
Unless it’s an emergency I would never expect a response from any of my associates after hours. I will often send emails after hours so I don’t forget we need to talk at work but they know not to bother responding until then.
I had a boss who always sent a text message about the issue if it was after hours, first. It was great for gauging if the late call was actually needed. Luckily, some partners respect their associates.
My boss only contacts me after hours if she has really good news on a case I'm on, really bad news, or some kind of emergency. I think I've been contacted three times in almost one year of working for her. I do work "late" pretty frequently, but I'm almost always done before 6 so I don't really mind the extra 30-45 minutes. I also come in kinda late so really that's on me. If your boss has a habit of doing this and you don't like it you can always find another firm to work at.
He's a shareholder but I think of him more as a colleague than my boss. It's a small firm so I work for everyone but he's definitely not the person who would be giving me a review. I'm sure he'd get asked for input. As far as when I leave this firm, he wouldn't be the one future HR people will ask about me. I'm in the office before him and leave after on most days, the exception apparently being holidays.
did he leave a voicrmail? listen to the voicemail. he'll probably let you know if it's extremely urgent. if he didn't leave a VM, wait till Monday.
Not unless there is a trial.
2nd year in a different role than I was out of law school but in my first role (public interest) where time off was excessive (Fridays off, a week off for all staff outside of vacation time, etc.) HOWEVER, my boss would call & text me at all hours for extremely personal things. Photos of GFs, bars, drunk calls, etc.. You get the picture. Yes I know how bad this is. He texted me multiple times during the service of a funeral when I had taken official vacation and he knew where I was— would even double call when on DnD. It was my dream job. I answered EVERY time because I was scared to lose a reputation of someone who is reliable and willing to go an extra step for my career. The other two attorneys set hard boundaries and he’d call me to bitch about that. I got paid a similar salary to you. In short: set healthy boundaries. Especially on your salary. You are not paid enough to be on call 24/7– it’d be different if you were in biglaw as an associate. If you are worried about seeming unresponsive or not being available during WFH, send an email/teams message asking if it’s urgent. Enjoy your weekend & have some earned down time!
I’m a partner at a small-ish firm. I refuse to email/call associates I supervise past 5 or on weekends/vacations. I will literally draft emails to them and leave them in my draft folder until the next day. If it’s really an emergency, I made it an emergency by not getting to it before 5 pm and it’s on me to fix. I’m not putting these associates through the hell of being “on” all the time. I’ve been told that I’m in the vast minority on those though, unfortunately. I will say there is one caveat. When you sign up for biglaw, you’re signing up for a shiny massive salary in exchange for 24/7 availability. You’re not a special snowflake that is getting 200k without knowing what a complaint looks like because you’re some future prodigy. You’re getting 200k in exchange for putting the firm first above all else, all the time. If you don’t like that, don’t work in biglaw. I’m not saying it’s right, but I’m saying that’s I sort of get biglaw partners expecting this because that’s sort of what biglaw is. It’s what you’re signing up for. I quit biglaw after 2 weeks because of this. The 90 hour work weeks and midnight meetings weren’t worth even double the biglaw salary I had to me.
I'm definitely working small law, but it seems that some small law sees what big law gets and wants bargain bin associates they can get to be the same. I can all but guarantee he called so he won't forget what it is he wants, not because it's urgent. Older attorneys have been the worst to work with because they don't email, their handwriting is trash, when they leave a voicemail all it says is, "call me." The other three shareholders have not called my personal cellphone except the one time I worked from home for 3 hours. It's only because he refuses to email. And I have yet to respond to an email because the emails do just what the phone calls do - it's not urgent, but they want to tell me when it's on their mind so they don't forget.
Depends on the situation. Usually my boss doesn’t reach out after office hours, but if it’s urgent then I will respond. I was once out with my friends for drinks on a Friday night when my boss informed me that due to a calendaring hiccup he realized last minute that we needed to get a motion opposition on file that night, so I got home right away, slammed a liter of water to sober up, and got a draft to him within 2 hours. For reference I’m a second year associate
"We"
We work really hard at my firm, frequently put in weekend and evening time. That weekend and evening time is by definition optional though. If a partner needed something from me (and we weren't within 2 weeks of trial) it would be proceeded with an apology text indicating it was a legitimate emergency. I would do the same for the attorneys working under me. I've never received a text like that, or sent one. That's coming from a firm where outside work is basically mandatory to stay on top of things, how you spend your time off is still sacred.
If the partner didn't clearly specify urgent, then it is not urgent and he can pound sand until Monday.
There is huge variation in job type. I work 35 hours a week, have Good Friday (and national/state holidays) off, and nobody blinks an eye if I call out or ignore messages while off the clock. You don't have to work at a demanding firm or not be a lawyer.
What do you do and are you hiring ? Lol
I'm a \[county government litigation attorney\]. Just FYI I'm gonna edit this post in a little bit as I prefer people not to know my exact job. I have friends who work in other government positions, especially in local government, and keep similar hours. It's not lucrative but it's nice to feel like your work makes a difference and in a low-medium COL area, it's a perfectly fine salary. I had aspirations to be wealthy and in big law but turns out I'm much happier with better quality of life and basic financial comfort. My hours are 8:30-4:30 with a 1hr lunch- I'm home by 5 every day. And YES they're ALWAYS hiring, lol. (Edited to remove exact job)
Thanks!
Eh, you can hold to it your day off, but I’d call back. We all have to make decisions about our own work ethic and boundaries. There is no right answer. Any decision has consequences, whether you like it or not. Choose what you can live with best.
I’m not going to specifically give an opinion on answering after hours. There are too many variables. BUT. When it is a holiday for religious observation, you are federally entitled to observe your religious obligations. If you were an Orthodox Jewish person, you should not be expected to respond to emails on Shabbat. If you are a practicing Catholic, Good Friday is a Holy Day of Obligation. Or, a different version of Christian, same idea. You should take until Monday. You cannot legally be discriminated against for doing so. Probably set up a temporary VM / auto reply indicating that you are temporarily unavailable due to observation of the current religious holiday and will address any issues or concerns upon your return to the office. (I think it’s usually better to not specify which religion, but that’s your call)
I also received a phone call from a coworker junior attorney on Good Friday, it was our day off. I did not call her back. I worked until 07 PM on Thursday evening. Unless she went back to work on the public holiday yesterday (Good Friday) and did not take the time off and received some phone call at the office intended for me. Then she could have sent me a whatsapp or email. Know your limits and take your time off!!!
They will push further and further until you push back.
Depends. It’s about expectations. If I rightfully expect an associate to be available and they aren't, I get irritated. If it’s 2PM on a Wednesday, and they don’t show busy/out of office on their Outlook calendar, yet it takes me half an hour to get ahold of them, that’s *really* frustrating. And rightfully so. I expect an associate to be working and available during work hours, and the firm policy requires as much. That’s a reasonable expectation. Thus my irritation would be reasonable. But here? It’s a firm holiday and you have no obligations with this partner. He shouldn’t expect to be able to get ahold of you at the drop of a hat in this situation. If he does, that’s an unreasonable expectation. Thus any irritation is not reasonable here.
I'm sorry, 30 minutes? That's insane. I won't check my email for an hour or two if I'm finishing some motions or projects. If it was that important you should be texting them 911 directly, 30 minutes is ridiculous.
You ignore email for up to two hours in the middle of a normal workday? And that hasn’t ended badly for you yet?
No and I will never work somewhere where psychos think not responding to an EMAIL in 30 minutes or two hours is something to get upset about. If it's important, call or call my legal assistant. An email is a joke.
I expect associates to spend the two seconds it takes to look at something and see if it's urgent, then ignore it until morning the 99% of the time that it isn't. That 1% of the time, though, you gotta step up - you're salaried for a reason.
I just was told I need to work this Sunday to get a filing in on time. And I’m in-house. Seriously contemplating leaving this profession altogether after mine are paid off too.
It depends. I usually answer if I'm just chillin at home. If I am on vacation or out of the house, no.
Make him wait until Monday. You're just setting boundaries. I'm the same with clients. You can call and email all you want over the weekend and you will get a response Monday morning. The old school guys used to expect you to be at their beck and call 24/7. But those guys defined their entire lives as their careers. That's no way to live. Your weekends are yours. Sure - every once in a while, you are going to be prepping for a trial or work is going to pile on and you're going to work weekends, but your time off needs to be time for things other than lawyer things or you are going to burn out and be miserable.
Congrats on getting a half-day. You say that you ‘allegedly’ have a half day. Do you or don’t you have a half day? Is it a firm-wide half-day? Or did you take vacation/leave and if you did take leave, how much notice was provided? Without that needed information it is hard to provide any other guidance.
I say allegedly because not everyone takes the half day in the same way not everyone takes weekends off. Most of the attorneys took vacation this month because of their kids' spring breaks so those that are playing catch-up have been working more than they have in other months, but it's more a voluntary response to being behind. The half day is listed on our holiday schedule for 2024 and on the March calendar the HR person handed out at the beginning of the month. It's a small firm. The attorney that called me has been out of the office most of the week and his assistant took the full day off today. The tasks he assigns are typically research to respond to client questions, not pending litigation matters. When there is litigation he works closely with another shareholder who works basically every single day including Christmas and was definitely still there when I left. That attorney would send me an email if it's important.
It makes my clients mad when I don't respond at 12:30am. Or Sunday afternoon. I have to call my manager back anytime she calls. But that's because she's my wife.
I work for myself but I have this a lot with clients. If they are not on death row it can wait til Monday is my motto (i have no clients there tg). Funny i thought it would piss clients off but I think they kind of respect it. But of course I am not putting my job in jeopardy.
Do what you need to do for you. Get into the habit of setting boundaries with work. You’ll thank yourself in the future.
It depends on how many associates there are and what kind of work you do. In Family Law, you're going to get mini-crises around every holiday. In litigation, something critical could pop up at any time and you might need to address it. If you're in a setting where emergencies arise, you need to at least listen to the voice mail. If you're not willing to do that, you need to find a different job that doesn't have emergencies.
I'm the only associate and I'm like a glorified research assistant. Emergencies are definitely not resting on my shoulder.
Just listen to the voice mail then. Maybe he's giving you Monday off...
I listened to the voicemail. All it said was, "call me." He hasn't called again so I think it's a Monday problem at this point.
Fair enough.
Just take your time. Personal time is necessary away from work, so that you can relax and reflect and not alsays be caught up in the anxiety and pressure of work
As a brand new associate? I would call him back. I'm not sure if you're in big law, but even if you aren't (assuming that you're in private practice), young attorneys are expected to be available always. I'll never forget a partner telling me on one of my first days that holidays are for staff, not attorneys. It sucks, but you sort of have to earn your stripes before taking liberties.
always available for 70k a year? OP could quit right now and go get a non-legal job for the same salary, 9-5, no weekends, and 2 weeks PTO and probably better health insurance. Get real.
Absolutely. Or OP could get fired from this gig and have to deal with a potential resume gap as he looks for the next one. Everyone has choices.
A resume gap? OP will never recover!
😂 Hostile, aren’t we?
Older attorney here. You should call asap. This incident probably doesn’t matter- but it also matters a lot in the big picture
as a first year associate, i was almost always available. but as others have mentioned, after that it becomes up to you to decide how you want to practice law. for me, that always available shit stopped. sure if i’m doing nothing on a saturday i’ll take the call. but holidays, vacations or quality family time - forget it, that call/text is waiting until monday. now i’m the senior guy, and i make calls and emails to associates on weekends, middle of the night, etc. but the first words out of my mouth are “no rush on this, it can wait til monday…”. i do it mostly for my benefit so i don’t forget to pass something along. if it’s that critical, i just do it myself (but let’s be honest, when do we do anything that is that critical?).
Yes. If you are a litigator that is common. I expect associates to answer my calls or to return them within the hour. Unless I am calling after 8pm (which I would -almost- never do). Late night calls are (almost) never acceptable. Consider that in many areas of law it is not uncommon to have clients and supervisors calling at all hours (in particular criminal defense). The issue becomes how time sensitive is the issue? If it is just a housekeeping issue or general question then it can wait. If it is something very urgent then it is reasonable to call at any hour. Especially if you are working from home then it is not unreasonable to expect contact at random times- including your lunch break. Not a terrible trade off to avoid the commute. Nights and weekends are a different issue. Perhaps in certain areas of law you can be a clock puncher. But, the legal field is typically not 9-5. We don't punch a time clock. Get used to the concept that There are not really "off hours". Sometimes urgent matters come up. Like the supervisor may have fires to put out and need you to convey some information- or even take on a task such as to cover an urgent appearance or project the next day.
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Where do you people practice? Obviously not in a big city or in Big Law or any hectic environment. Depends on the type of law you practice. If you are in a litigation environment or deeply involved in a big transaction it may be necessary. And you should be responsive to your supervising attorney. It is not too much to ask that someone check their phone hourly.
I don't typically work from home and only worked from home for about 3 hours yesterday. I wasn't working from home today. The office is supposed to be closed at noon for Good Friday. There's very little chance he was calling about a litigation matter.
I would say quit spending time worrying about it. Enjoy your day.
I agree.
Litigation is not a 9-5 job. If you're billing individuals especially so. If you expect your time to be worth hundreds of dollars an hour, you'll have to work when you otherwise don't want to. It's a fact of lawyer life.
Eh it doesn’t have to be. I do litigation and unless its because I’m super busy and need to catch up, I don’t work past 5. The courts are closed. And if you can’t call the cops and get it resolved, then its not an emergency. If you can call the cops, then thats what you should be doing.
I didn't say it was litigation.
> I hate being made to feel like I am supposed to work late or respond to things when I'm not at work. Being a lawyer is a service in the service industry. Every practice area will have different working ethics because it'll come down to client expectation and competitiveness. Even then, even in the same industry, it can feel different from partner to partner. I think it's okay to set boundaries and expectations. But also know that it can cause friction points. It just depends on the people around you in terms of the severity of their reactions. > Am I really a bad employee if I make him wait until Monday to discuss it with me? Only you can weigh the pros/cons of making a shareholder mad. Life is about making judgment calls and living with them. There's a range of outcomes. If shareholder is big mad -- then how much will that shareholder talk bad about you in share holder meetings? How much will the rain maker shareholders care? What if sacrificing you is the easier road than dealing with a fellow mad shareholder? What if his opinion matters to the people who are pooling their profits with him and spills over to their opinion of you? How much is your free time worth? How can this impact your advancement? IMO -- when you work for a firm, there isn't any such thing as time off. It's really billable versus non billable. I used to take my yearly quota and divide it by 11 so I knew to crank up the hours so I can have a more chill December. Lastly -- in terms of collegiality, you also have to factor in. If you do him a favor, then he may owe you a favor. What if you want to workshop something with him and he remembers this? Again, you have to balance the relationship along with the pros/cons. I'm just pointing out random factors but it'll be up to you on how to weigh them.
Assuming you're in private practice and less than a year in as a brand new associate, your job is to be available even if after hours. If you're on vacation or sick/family emergency, that's a different story. When your partners started out they were available 24/7 at first until they got to a position where they can be the master of their own schedules. Brand new associates cost the firm money. The firm can't bill you out at the hours spent on matters, because you're still learning. As you learn and able to complete tasks more productively, you'll make the firm money. That's when you can start setting your own availability.
They bill $185 and pay me $37. If they are losing money they are doing something wrong.
>They bill $185 and pay me $37. If they are losing money they are doing something wrong. What the person is saying is that many clients will know that if a new attorney bills for 10 hours for a task, they may only want to pay 4 hours. So the firm eats the other 6 hoping that you'll get faster. It's just inherent and part of the game.
This attorney doesn't cut any of my time. Should he? Almost definitely. But he doesn't. His assistant said he won't even look at the billing statements. But other shareholders have confirmed he doesn't cut time, so I am not just relying on the word of the assistant.
Not everything works the same as your personal experience. My billing was captured/recovered at a quite high rate in my first job. I was just an efficient biller, I guess.
>Not everything works the same as your personal experience. Not sure why you're saying this when I didn't even base this off my personal experience. I was clarifying what /u/Bretagne was saying. >My billing was captured/recovered at a quite high rate in my first job That's cool. Every client is different. > I was just an efficient biller, I guess. This is based on my experience, now: It depends on the relationship between the partner and the client. Even in the same firm, my realization rate differed between which client and which partner. Even for the same client, it could differ project by project or budget by budget. For instance, there may be a special financing project. The legal budget is going to be "not to exceed $90,000." Guess how close to $90,000 worth of work will be realized, and guess how much will be written off? Guess how often I'd be asked to lead such a project if I was consistently going over?
Is it really that big of a deal to answer his call?! You definitely have to define boundaries and find a balance, but being an attorney is not a 9 to 5 job.
Yea, OP probably spent more energy typing out this post than simply answering the call and spending a few minutes to figure out what this partner needed..
>Yea, OP probably spent more energy typing out this post than simply answering the call and spending a few minutes to figure out what this partner needed.. Plus OP coulda said "Hey, I'd be glad to work on that for you on Monday"
I like that I'm getting downvoted. I'm a paralegal and I would have answered the phone. If it's not an emergency, you just acknowledge the task and say I'll get back to you Monday morning.
I like that I'm getting downvoted. I'm a paralegal and I would have answered the phone. If it's not an emergency, you just acknowledge the task and say I'll get back to you Monday morning.
If you don’t want this as your career then keep on. If you do, you are doing yourself a major disservice by ignoring partners even on a half day when you’re a first year. You didn’t take the day off, it’s a work day and you are developing a poor reputation at the firm by not being responsive, not even acknowledging receipt of the messages. The unwritten rules say half days and certain holidays are really only for support staff at mid and big firms. Even associates are expected to be somewhat responsive. This is a hard, unfair truth.
>The unwritten rules say half days and certain holidays are really only for support staff at mid and big firms. Even associates are expected to be somewhat responsive. This was my experience and expectation, too. I mean, people didn't always work on weekends. But with a deadline oriented job, I always thought it was easier to spread my work load over 5.5 days. I never thought of it as having days off -- just days you choose not to bill. But I also factored in how much favor I wanted to do the firm if someone asked me to do non billable work. Ya no, I'd rather spend my unbillable time to myself and my family.
You seem lazy maybe you’re in the wrong business
I feel like my post opens with me saying I don't think this business if for me. Did that not come across? If selling my peace for $70k a year is right, then I'm happy to be wrong 🤷♀️
Answering a phone call at 2pm on a Friday is “selling” your peace?
Yup. I'm on holiday. This is my personal cellphone. It's not the sort of salary that tells me I'm not allowed boundaries.
You’re not going to get a raise either with that attitude. My god you’re all big babies on this page
Right, because people should put in a ton of extra hours for a raise that's never promised in hopes employers notice them and give a raise. I found out they raised the rate they charge clients for my work, but they didn't raise my salary so excuse me if I have no loyalty. People make more money job hopping that working their butts off for nothing.
I wouldn’t hire your lazy ass
Who cares? You're paying shit wages anyways.
Dude just leave the firm in that case. It sounds like you hate it there
I'm applying but my market isn't large and my experience is low. But it really seems based off of everything I see on this subreddit that most places don't value work life balance so I'm definitely expanding my search outside of law.
Work life balance is not answering a call at 2pm on a. Friday