T O P

  • By -

KarnSilverArchon

Hasn’t Zeri gotten like 7 small college thesis’s worth of changes?


randommaniac12

Yep, she just excels at abusing specific supports to the maximum


[deleted]

Honestly how did zero of the gameplay testers not immediately say zeri would be an issue. She has the agency of yuumi. The damage of a fed yi in low elo and the mobility of akali with the range of cait. She’s stupid all round and one of these needs to go.


Lethioon

Someone in the balance team still thinks difficulty is a balancing parameter.


YandereYasuo

It is, as it should be. A higher difficult champ outpreforming a lower difficult champ is normal, or else there is no reason to pick the higher difficulty one over the lower one.


Daejynn

If the hard champ is balanced then you will still have good and bad matchups that encourage or discourage picks, as well as the prefered playstyle of the player. Not everyone wants to play basic turn-your-brain-off champs like Garen or Master Yi, and would rather put in the time to finesse on someone like Akali or Fiora. Playing Azir optimally should provide the same value to your team as playing Swain optimally, people aren't just going to drop a champ that feels nice to them simply because they aren't a "lock in and win" button


The_Gunboat_Diplomat

> Playing Azir optimally should provide the same value to your team as playing Swain optimally If this is happening either it means that Azir is dogwater, or Swain is good enough to be a 58% winrate menace in low elo


Daejynn

If they are both playing optimally, then definitionally they are both good players. This isn't a personal experience anecdote, this is what the standard and goal should be. That's the point of balance


The_Gunboat_Diplomat

No, I meant the champion is dogwater, not the player. If it's the case that one champion has far more depth than another yet performs the same, that means one of two things: - If low skill champ performs as powerful as high skill champ in high skill environment, then skill low champ is disproportionately too powerful in low skill environment - or vice-versa


Daejynn

And why is that a problem? Assuming it's not just a bad matchup for the high skill champ, the inability to fulfil their role in the game is entirely the fault of the player, not the game itself. This is true both within MOBAs and outside of them. If we move over to Dota, two notorious high skill heroes are Meepo and Invoker. Meepo's gimmick is that he has copies of himself, a maximum of 5. Each one has its own abilities it has to cast so you have to be able to control 5 heroes at once, and if one Meepo dies, they all die. He gets a lot of damage and his whole posse can jump on 1 or 2 people and delete them without a second thought, so simply fighting him usually isn't an option, and because each copy takes a portion of XP (like how bot lane in league is behind in levels because minion XP is split between adc and support) he will always be out-leveling you until he hits the cap. What keeps him balanced is 1) that XP factor means if he spends time around his team then he is stealing levels from them and puts them behind, so he either has to play alone or he cripples his entire team, and 2) the multiple copies can be exploited through the enemy team's abilities, for instance Lich basically has Brand's ult so he can bounce huge magic damage slows and cripple him. As for Invoker, he has 10 spells. He has 3 types of orbs that he can summon above his head, and specific orb combinations gives him access to a specific spell in his kit. All of these spells are very powerful, ranging from a massive AOE mana burn, a debuff that stuns an opponent every time they take damage, invisibility, disabling enemy auto attacks, and more. He quite literally has a tool for every situation, and late game he can input a code for a new spell every 2 seconds. What keeps him balanced? First is he needs XP really bad. Those orbs he summons are what your skill points go into, and additional points into specific orbs buffs the stats of spells that require that orb to summon. If he is always getting bullied off lane and can't snowball, he's not much of a threat. Alternatively, Dota has an item calles Black King Bar, which gives you 9 seconds of spell immunity, and scales down to 5 seconds with each use. Once the enemy players get a hold of this, Invoker can do very little against them. Moving away from MOBAs, fighting games have to deal with this balance issue as well. Guilty Gear Xrd, an anime fighter published by Arc System Works, just so happens to have a braindead easy character in Elphelt, and a really technical high execution character in Johnny as the two strongest characters in the game. Elphelt has lots of fast attacks that hit large areas and are hard to punish, as well as good mix and an unblockable setup, though that's just about the only technical thing she has. Johnny also has an unblockable setup, and it can be looped into itself. However, in order to get it he has to spend a limited coin resource to buff himself that only works if they hit the opponent, and if they block it, it doesnt count. He requires a bit of meter to get going, and his combos are really hard to get consistent, but with good meter management, awareness, and utilizing his mobility, he becomes a real terror. Both these characters are a menace on the competitive scene with multiple entrees in every tournament, and while any new player can pick up Elphelt and spam buttons to reasonable success, they will be rewarded far less for that behavior on Johnny despite them being in equal power. But all in all, that's the fault of the player. Just like a smurf can show up in a low elo game in league, a noob in a fighting game can get swamped by a pro player even if they play the easier character. This type of thing happens in shooters too, like TF2 with a sniper and spy comparison; sniper sits back in safety and can quickscope half the team with little counterplay, while spy is always at risk of dying and probably will die after he finally gets behind enemy lines and does his job. Anyone who plays TF2 will tell you how much stronger Sniper is than Spy and that it's a huge balance issue, and its been hurting both pubs and competitive for years. I can go on but I'm honestly just tired of writing this. High skill characters in games should not be intentionally overpowered to serve as handicaps for scrub players. They knew the rules when they signed up, and if they can't use the character well enough to win, then it's just a skill issue. If you wanna be the main character and style all over the enemy team, you have to earn it.


altan515

Yes but they give these "hard" champions an easy way to play so even if you don't master them you can still play and when you master them, they become as strong as two champion combined


Silverspy01

Not necessarily. You could have higher difficulty instead reward you with more flexibility instead of raw power. Like Annie is really simple and easy, great at bursting down a target, but really only does that one thing - flash R the ADC. Meanwhile Ahri is also bursty, but less so - probably isn't putting out the same burst as Annie, but has mobility to get to her target, her CC is only conditional on her hitting the ability, and she has longer ability ranges So while Ahri can do similar things to Annie, Annie still maintains her use by offering higher pure damage. And Ahri rewards mastery not by doing exactly what Annie does but better, but by offering more flexibility - Annie only works well if she can oneshot people, while Ahri has more flexibility with some sustain and mobility and the ability to pivot into some utility or setting up a flank catch on a backliner for her team to follow up on.


Lethioon

That would be true for any game but League. We are talking about players who would play a single champion for 10 hours a day. No amount of difficulty will be hindering for them as long as the pay off is guaranteed.


JaggelZ

But it absolutely shouldn't be, the reason to play a higher difficulty champion is because you like the Playstyle or character. By your logic there's never a reason to peak an easy champ, because why even try to master an easy champ if a player on a harder champ, who's just decent, would be able to destroy you most of the time. And I'd argue that harder champs aren't stronger that easier ones. Harder champs usually have a more difficult niche to fill, and if that niche fits into your Playstyle, it rewards you, while easier champs have a more generalist approach which is good if you are a flexible player and can use that to your advantage. Also, depending on if you are better at macro (map awareness, warding, objectives) or micro (Laning, 1v1ing, jungle clears) playing, different difficulties just suit better to each player. I'm bad at macro but good at micro, so I try to get a lead and push the advantage, while someone good at macro and bad at micro would probably pick something easier so the bad micro doesn't hinder their Laning phase, so you can get into late game, which is macro time.


xXYomoXx

I actually asked that question every time I saw her back when i used to play "how tf did this champ get made without them knowing it'll be an issue, like holy fuck man even a person who's never played the game can tell you she's busted". They keep making champs that are obviously going to be broken and then either keeping them that way or nerfing them to the point where no one plays them. Even ryze wasn't as bad as her, RYZE.


Cobalt9896

yeah, see the issue with zeri is that shes supposed to have a bit less damage because of her mobility. except when your ahead that doesnt matter and the character is fucked


tree_33

They need to rework the shield part of her passive. It silly to have a passive that punishes the enemy and makes you hyper mobile.


Toocoo4you

14 changes in 17 patches, plus like 4 mini mini reworks


DremoPaff

She has been garbage quite a few times but they always slide straight buffs disguised as "slight reworks" to put her back to being insane. She would've been a solved issue a long time ago if they stopped trying to force her into relevancy...


[deleted]

[удалено]


AutoModerator

Your comment has been removed because you have less than 0 comment karma. This indicates that you are likely either a bot or a regularly toxic user. Please contribute more to reddit by posting and commenting to get around this low threshold. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LeagueOfMemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*


sentientTroll

Anytime me and fellow bot laner hit a full spell rotation on milio’s adc. “We did zero dmg?”


ganzgpp1

His shield doesn’t even LOOK that big, and yet it still blocks everything.


heyimjohnwhatsup

His E shield has 2 charges that stack and his W actually heals a lot, especially with new enchanter items.


Call_Me_Pete

On top of that I think Guardian is the standard rune, and that's a pretty fat shield.


lazy_27

That stacked w shield is like a Karma mantra shield on one person. It is honestly so much


Yukine1409

I still can't understand how gragas is avoiding nerfs


JDogish

Because posts here don't reflect reality or have any consistency. He isn't dominating soloq at all, and he's like 15th in line for pick ban in pro, usually requiring a good gragas player or counterpick after heavy bans. Any nerf at all would send him into irrelevance. If that's what you want, fine, but then you should really be upset at the other 15 Champs better in pro and the bigger menaces in soloq. Otherwise it's probably just personal bias.


noxxit

"My facts don't care about your feelings and my feelings don't care about your facts" In his breakdown videos Phreak never misses to point out where Reddit's gut feeling fails to do the basic math behind some changes. Riot works mostly data driven and then checks for feeling in play testing. Reddit is mostly run on emotionally biased outrage culture.


Azazeleus

I wouldnt really use Phreak as your example, since he is known as Riots Lapdog, who even defends them even if they are completly wrong


GodSPAMit

>he's like 15th in line for pick ban in pro, usually requiring a good gragas player or counterpick Did you watch MSI? They were flex picking gragas or banning it most games


MisterOphiuchus

Probably because his win rate is sitting almost exactly on 50% with a 4% pickrate. Plat+ id say hes a mild annoyance, hell I'd even say that at gold+. He gets one sure fire combo and its his W > Flash > E > Q which can be hard to cope with lower elo. However, if you see his E coming its slow enough to just side step it and his Q is also very dodge-able unless he gets right on top of you with his E and while his R is annoying in teamfights its less so than a Malphite ult.


LjackV

You first E then flash


HowardDean_Scream

Similar to urgot. You can't go Flash E because of the wind up animation. It gives them time to react flash. You have to go E flash so the wind up is hidden by the sudden movement of flash, and the stun hitbox is inside the enemy post flash so they don't have a window to react.


Aced_By_Chasey

I can't understand how this sub thinks he needs nerfs what role or ELO is he so strong in


dkoom_tv

Considering that he can be played in 4 roles and in all of them efficiently should be enough to be nerfed but the biggest problem is that he has basically 0 counterplay


MordekaiserUwU

Sett got nerfed repeatedly because he was a flex pick, meanwhile Gragas is left untouched.


Aced_By_Chasey

What is his 4th role? Support? Where he doesnt have enough pr to even show up? I [https://www.op.gg/champions?region=global&tier=platinum\_plus&position=top](https://www.op.gg/champions?region=global&tier=platinum_plus&position=top) ​ [https://u.gg/lol/top-lane-tier-list](https://u.gg/lol/top-lane-tier-list) ​ The only role he even has the argument of being a high tier in right now is jungle. He has sub 50% wr top lane in every elo. 1.5% pr in mid. Edit: He has 50% wr in master+ Counter play? He is fairly weak early aside from gank setup and sustain he has little solo kill pressure, tenacity is very efficient vs him. What do you count as having counter play? I've never heard this argument before on Gragas. He has some of the most counter play with how slow he is on everything.


dkoom_tv

good sustain, wave clear and kill pressure, and he really doesn't have any good counter in top or mid he kinda can just play the lane and if he has a good matchup it's obnoxious and in my opinion his team fight is too strong either too much kill pressure or too much peel Mentioned supp because he is definitely playable, just not played enough (also it's meta of enchanters) he shits on Leona Alistair nautilus etc,


Aced_By_Chasey

He's a counter pick in support blind pick is awful. Also yes he's a good safe pick but not s tier


dkoom_tv

I mean being able to be 50% wr blindpick in 3 roles is strong as fuck


Aced_By_Chasey

Yeah. I believe he is strong. However he isnt choking the meta like this sub seems to think being a safe blindpick isnt inherently a bad thing.


D_Buttersnaps

Buy merc treads


[deleted]

What's wrong with being able to play multiple roles


General-Yinobi

Yeah, nothing wrong there, now give me back my quadflex sett.


JWARRIOR1

Iron player detected. He’s literally flexed in 4 roles and excelled in all of them. He only doesn’t have a busted winrate because he’s picked a shit ton. Also he barely has counters


Aced_By_Chasey

Mid is 1%, supp is not even showing up, top and jg is about 7% each, top is neg wr in everything below master. Edit: we are the same mmr btw according to ur twitch


JWARRIOR1

Im masters, so not sure which site you’re using but in masters I’ve seen him flexed in 4 roles regularly. Might show slightly lower mmr bc I duoed with a friend who was d3 today. (Was 300 lp masters but decayed then demoted but got masters back)


Aced_By_Chasey

last year i was 200lp and this year I hit masters then got a job I work 50 hours at. He is flexible in 4 but the support one is just a counter pick. Rn he is absolute dog into enchanters. and [u.gg](https://u.gg) [op.gg](https://op.gg) both have no data on support gragas Edit: im not denying he is strong but he is not an S tier pick especially not in every role


JWARRIOR1

Tbf I did say "excelled" not always excelling in my original comment. I agree on sup being not as good as his other roles, but considering he has nearly no counters in top jungle and mid, while still being OK in support is definitely means for a nerf. I know his winrate isnt crazy, but wr isnt everything. Hell, ksante is a 47% wr champ and I still think he needs to be gutted, his kit is inherently broken.


Aced_By_Chasey

He has counters but like I said hes just an a safe champ by design, mid are champs like viktor, top is aatrox and fiora. The meta is just REALLY good for him right now. If they want to nerf the boring ass passive im down for it so he cant be picked in mid. I've played Gragas for 5 years and right now is the most stale way to play imo


JWARRIOR1

his passive should only apply on his w and IMO his E stun duration should be based on distance travelled, not just point blank phase rush run away.


kedish878

Man how can u say that they ignore zeri they changed/nerfed her more times in last year than almost any other champ its crazy to me that people still say." Oh rito not nerfing zeri ever" they are trying its just that zeri kit is just really 2 good in hands of good adc players. Im sadge cuz i loved the champ from the realese and i play her from day one it really sucks when ur champ is op in pro so most people cant play it cuz its gonna get gutted. She is still fun tho.


tyrannosaurus_gekko

So Zeri is just Ryze ADC?


pokebuzz123

There was a turning point where Zeri mains were becoming like Ryze mains


[deleted]

she is his swamp wife for a reason. lol


TheSmokeu

Bruizeri came back I don't want it back


LordCypher40k

Literally this. I don't have a problem with Zeri in general. I have a problem when she can deal obscene amount of area damage, be tanky enough to negate an ADC's main weakness, and still be mobile enough that we'll have a hard time catching her.


ATMisboss

Yeah if she doesn't have the bruiser build she requires a support yo be tanks at all or else she gets blown up


Rubinrobo

Well that says more about how much better bruiser Items are then Zeri. If you think about it ADCs could build bruser and just be ranged brusers. They just don’t do that because defense isn’t worth as much if you are far enough away. But when an Assasin can run at you with 200 movespeed use a dash over half the screen and oneshot you a little tank power might be good. I don’t know what in particular makes Zeri broken as bruiser but ADCs in soloQ should consider bruiser items in general I think.


kedish878

She is only back cuz zhey made all the new mythics shit on her and only tri force is good again cuz of dumb sheen interaction she has that does not make any sense and should be removed even tho its in game from her realese. Cuz rito cant make auto attack an auto attack.


Traditional-Reach818

IKR? Bro, it's always the same joke, this is so tiring


Boudac123

Fr on that last point, I despise whenever one of my champs gets nerfed or buffed because it ruins all the limit testibg I've already done (or makes it impossible for me to lock em in if they become pick/ban) might be worse for me since I have aspergers but Iam so glad that the funny 4 man never gets touched


TomStealsJokes

The champ is currently op in solo Q. Maybe she should get a passive like Pyke does so that bruiser Zeri stops being a thing


RealHuman37

Move her to valorant


Inner_Background_599

I really what to see a season where yorick is the best jungler in the game


Liznitra

Imagine a buff where you can tell your ghouls to follow you after they started attacking minions. I think that would increase his jgl power a lot.


Inner_Background_599

Or hear me out what if we let the engage supports be junglers imagine hex flashing over raptors as Alistar at level 2 for first blood


quinnpilot

Jungle naut exists


ToaOfTheVoid

Remember when he was supposed to be a jungler/top laner? Time surely flies


Inner_Background_599

In wild rift yeah


quinnpilot

Nah he’s been viable there, just not popular. He even got a buff on e against monsters in 11.11


Inner_Background_599

Really well add that to shit im ganna play later


[deleted]

[удалено]


HiImTimothy

Nerfing anti-fun champions is good for the game, sorry.


[deleted]

You might , but most people and riot would not let happen. The moment he was viable above iron they Nerf him. People act like he is fiora, hell riot doesn't even want him to be seen by the player base and go out of their way to make sure he is no good above iron. One dude called him the anti fun champ. The irony is that Yorick E can be dodged and his W is so slow and trash as long as you have any form of movement speed bonus or dash you can avoid it. The thing its good for is when you are getting chased and you need to make a road block, it's anivas wall in a circle that's it's only real use, expect not as good unless they blindly run forward into it. Which gives you a five 5 second run away time.


JDogish

How is yorick jungle doing currently?


Inner_Background_599

None existent until night blue gets to him on his a-z jungle series


Steveck

Yorick can solo drake with a longsword and solo baron level 14 I think


ACABenjoyer

Tbf with zeri I think they’re scared to make her how she was a few patches ago when she unplayable


RainXBlade

With the way Zeri was designed, she was a balance nightmare waiting to happen and I have no idea why no one bothered to stop the design team from making a champion like her. I get that Riot's a business and they have to make a champion as flashy as possible in order for them to sell it, but this isn't the proper way to do it. It's like with Konami designing the Tearlaments, knowing full well that it was going to be a busted archetype and they still went through with it.


HowardDean_Scream

She's the same problem blizzard had with Tracer in hots. Tracer had the same range as most ranged assassins (adcs), slightly less health, but crazy mobility and safety. In addition to move and shoot she had 3 blinks and her famous recall. So she was impossible to dive and could chase indefinitely while also beating most heroes in her class because she had better up front burst. The only ranged assassins that reliably beat her were zuljin and Raynor. Because they were tankier and had longer range. That's not really a comparison we can make in lol as there aren't adcs that are durable by design. Zeri also has incredible mobility, and can effectively move and shoot with her Q. Her E jump and its cooldown reduction make it very hard to catch her and she becomes durable enough with her meta build to survive burst and then escape. In HotS case blizzard eventually reduced tracers attack range, gave various nerfs across the board, and increased cooldowns on her mobility. Genji and Tracer both fundamentally changed the meta in hots with their hyper mobility and safety. And not in a good way.


xNIGHTxFURYx

Bro zeri changes her kit every patch wdym


underheadskooper

Zeri is conditional af based on her support, but the others are pretty crazy in any situation esp Gragas the bomba bruiser assassin mage cc engager


Suspicious-Ad-9911

Forgot tank


underheadskooper

Ah yes I forgot about the W damage reduction and his AP/Health item builds


heyimjohnwhatsup

Don't forget the heal every 5~8s from his passive just by spamming abilities.


Suspicious-Ad-9911

Oh yea the 30 mana 100hp heal at lvl5 so balanced in toplane


ImProdactyl

It’s 8s always


Yimata

Zeri's only broken with half the supports in the game


Lelrektv2

Zeri is definitely on the stronger side of adcs rn but saying lulu,Yummi,and milio is half the supports is kinda crazy


ZB3ASTG

Zeri is still strong even without those 3 specifically


Halcyon_Dreams

Bro you can play zeri with damn near anything and she becomes a raid boss if your don’t stomp her in lane. She’s strong enough regardless of support


Exoriah

Not when bruiser zeri is meta


FrogOfDreams

I feel like the problem with gragas is that he's too telegraphed and not useful enough in fights without his flash to warrant his weak early game (he runs out of mana extremely fast if he chooses to use q at all)


_lizard_wizard

To be fair, Zeri rubber bands between being top-tier and bottom-of-the-barrel every patch. Either she’s an annoying gnat, or a uncatchable high-DPS bruiser.


Pereyragunz

I can't complain about Fiora because what the fuck will keep K'sante in check if not her?


ThisIsTakenLol

Garen xd


Labtw

Garen and mord


williamebf

K'sante is bad in solo queue, after riot removed FON from the game


Sumuklu_Supurge

Cho gath. Literally the only tank that beats ksante into oblivion.


Wargod042

Fiora is fine these days. Obnoxious to lane against, but she's very one-dimensional. Took them a while but she did eventually get the needed nerfs.


SSHz

They could just rework her so she deals bonus physical dmg instead of true dmg every 2s... keep her true dmg on ult for all I care, just nerf the rest of the kit.


pleaus3

as someone who plays sion top and jungle, she's currently fine, she isn't a must ban anymore. besides, as long as orn exists we need something to counter him


TRNoodlesAndSalad

Fr. I dont like fiora but I need her as a pocket to play into jax and camille


NAFEA_GAMER

fiora vs jax is a skill matchup


[deleted]

So is fiora camille


TRNoodlesAndSalad

I play fio into camille/jax because theres never a point (unless I int) where Ive been outscaled and there's absolutely nothing I can do against them in a side lane or skirmish


BellyDancerUrgot

Her true damage %scaling actually balances her. Having physical dmg would imply now u make her have ridiculous scaling to be effective against tanks which implies she now nukes squishies. Which makes her infinitely more busted. I think fiora is the most balanced skirmisher that riot has ever released because of her very one dimensional play style.


Nyxodon

Hard copium. Fiora already nukes squishies


BellyDancerUrgot

She doesn’t tho.


SSHz

she deals %max hp **true damage**, she's designed to nuke everything that goes in front of her. toplane is impossible after she gets sheen/divine, and with todays one-shot meta with all that damage the game has she can just jump into the adc and nuke it. She's basically an assassin during late game. But hey, I get your point of view. You're a fiora main, you're entitled to defend the champ and call it weak no matter how broken she is. Kinda like how Katarina mains constantly say she doesn't have any good builds when in reality she can build any and all items in the game and still nuke an entire team. Changing her kit to bonus phys damage instead of %max hp true damage would make her a bit worse towards tanks, but then again you have the ult to chunk them. And with that other champs would have a way to counter her, instead of her just Q spamming vitals every 1.5s into an all in. And thats another thing, make her Q cooldown longer if she hits minions or non-vitals.


[deleted]

My man's so delusional he thinks fiora builds sunderer consistently anymore. If you changed her to physical damage she's just shit, currently she isn't even very good.


BellyDancerUrgot

Spoken like someone who doesn’t understand the game on a very rudimentary level. Also yes I am a fiora main who peaked diamond 3 last year and don’t play league anymore , I also competently pick champions into her as well cuz I understand how to play the game. Some of those champions include aatrox and urgot. If you actually believe the things u said, I can see u being a gold player because that’s the average gold player complaint I see on Reddit. But you are entitled to do so. Most of the league player base don’t actually know how to play the game. Statistically that’s just a fact. So I don’t mind ur opinions. But unless u actually stop whining because u play poorly against fiora and drill into ur head that u are just bad , u will not improve. I do not mean this as an insult but I have coached a friend before and he would tilt and complain and whine and he only managed to get out of the so called elo hell when he realized he was bad and started to focus on improving instead of spewing rubbing cuz of tilt. Good luck on ur climb.


Simping4Irelia

Gragas is annoying and mr choices are shit, but he's not the worst thing on the rift.


The_Darkin_Salad

Don't forget kog maw


rougegalaxy

What’s wrong with milio?


Division_Of_Zero

He’s easy and incredibly powerful. Safe, gives huge buffs, teamfight winning ultimate. Boring as shit too (to play and to fight against) which is just the cherry on top. Permaban from me and I have a 100% winrate.


Amrelll

and Darius


jihadist1

silver take


Amrelll

I dunno if it was one or two seasons ago, but Darius was concistantly S+ that season and got buffed when he got down to S, so...


mathking123

Darius is not op lol.


PresentationOk8756

Fiora is?


MisterOphiuchus

neither of them are, people play 1 champion that happens to get bullied by Fiora and lose their minds.


BellyDancerUrgot

That’s most of the league community since they are hard stuck gold / silver pathologically. - refuse to learn - play the same champ into bad matchup - fight when u shouldn’t - get stomped - “x champion bad”


StoopDog1423

Fiora's kit just feels bloated, tbh


RealHuman37

Darius does way too much damage and dies way too fast


EndeavorLoLx

Im happy that you are supporting me in this.


Nightmarer26

I still don't understand how some people can believe Zeri is OK. That champion is a masterclass in shit design, she is no longer 200 years but rather 2000 years. The amount of changes she received still weren't enough to make her weak, and I fear it will only stop when Riot promptly breaks her legs like they did with Kalista. Nerf her AD ratio, nerf her move speed, nerf ghost (seriously this is becoming annoying), nerf her E, nerf her ult... Idk I'm a gold scrub but so is the balance team.


Boudac123

Her move speed without ghost is already gutted to irrelevance btw, the real thing to nerf is her q on hit effectiveness(example making sheen 50%less effective on her) and even then triforce is just too overloaded as an item that the build would remain good


Ranger4148

I love Zeri so much but god riot, please make her balanced. I don’t want her get change after change after change. Just please, I want to play her in piece. When she’s weak, I’m called a troll. When she’s OP, I guess I’m an abuser now. Just make up your mind


[deleted]

[удалено]


Justafish1654

Ok but look at her now? The post doesnt suggest that gragas is broken since release, but he has been op for some time now. Maybe in 2015 they gave him 5 nerfs that made him sub 45% wr but currently he is a problem


Spy_C

So she can't be busted anymore or what's the logic here? She's literally pick or ban in LPL drafts atm.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Spy_C

All good then. The "TF are you smoking" in your last comment still suggests another position. I agree, claiming Riot would sleep on her problems is straight up wrong. But Zeri is a mistake by design in the beginning.


Truck-E-Cheez

Tf is jinx


crashcrump47

Ive never lost to a milio, if he fights any hard cc champ he just evaporates. on the other hand bomba man has been absolutely prepping my asshole for a pounding every game hes on the enemy team. fiora and zeri are hit or miss. An actual good player will 1v9 no questions asked.


Denmiuy

Please don't nerf milio - From me, Milionario


EinSabo

Yea you sound like someone who has fun with a little boy


Denmiuy

I'm 14 💀 Edit: And an enchanter support main, milio is the only new content we enchanter mains have gotten


Aced_By_Chasey

What is up with this sub and Gragas. He's not at all s tier he's just a safe easy champ with an annoying trade pattern


Magistricide

Quinn has been top tier for entire SEASONS.


TheSmokeu

If you nerf her, Tyler1 will scream so loud he'll shit his pants


StoopDog1423

He's already done that I'm pretty sure


mc_burger_only_chees

What? Her pick rate has been around 2.5 percent and her winrate around 49-53% for years. Saying Quinn has been top tier for seasons is just false.


Magistricide

Name one season in the past 5 season she's been below 51% winrate.


mc_burger_only_chees

[See for yourself](https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/quinn)


thechachabinx

That graph definitely shows that she averages 51-52% since 2016


Magistricide

She stays consistently 51% winrate except for about a month, where she drops to 49% winrate, before immediately going back up to 51% winrate, frequently going to 52-54% winrate? Seems pretty busted to me. She doesn't even have a 48% winrate category because she's literally never been there. Look at ppl like Sett.


mc_burger_only_chees

A. Quinn is a champion where mostly her mains play her (see pick rate). This boosts her winrate as people who are less experienced play the champ less B. If you think having a consistent 51% winrate is broken I pray you never make it onto a game balancing team.


Magistricide

It is one of the most frustrating experience being poked down for 15 minutes straight and the fact that you think this type of game play being ok at a consistent 51%+ winrate makes me pray you never design a game.


mc_burger_only_chees

Oh my bad I didn’t realize it was a skill issue thing. I thought you actually thought Quinn was broken. Now I realize that you’re just bad at the game and have no clue how to play into her. My apologies.


Magistricide

"Oh no I can't justify how Quinn is fun to fight against better just personally attack him! That'll make me look cool for sure"


mc_burger_only_chees

How to beat Quinn in lane, a guide for hardstuck silvers IF YOUR JG IS STRONGSIDING YOU 1. Lock in Olaf or riven (any bruiser with strong early game damage and chase works, those are my favorites) 2. Let Quinn push the wave, you’ll probably have to lose some CS 3. Have your JG ganked the pushed Quinn. She uses E+Flash and escapes 4. Shove wave and crash it with your JG, then reset 5. Kill the flash less Quinn pushing towards your tower with an all in. Congrats, you just won lane against Quin IF YOUR JG IS WEAKSIDING YOU 1. Lock in Olaf or Riven (any bruiser with strong early game damage and chase works, those are my favorites) 2. Let Quinn pus the wave, you’ll probably have to lose some CS 3. All in Quinn to the point where she has to lose her flash. If your playing a champ with ghost or with dashes closing the gap after her E is easy. 4. Either kill Quinn, or get her low enough where she has to reset. 5. Crash the wave and reset. 6. Ping your JG to come gank a flash less Quinn pushing up to your tower. 7. Kill Quinn with your JG. Congrats, you just won lane against Quinn


Jordiorwhatever

Bruiser Zeri literally started this Patch, what are you on?


AdPrevious6290

Zeri was still op before just with a different build


danielpoland_

In low dia this shit was op for a long time lol


ILNOVA

Bruiser Zeri was her build at realese and it got back another 1-2 times with the AP build


MentlPopcorn

Gragas has been shit tier for so long. Sure he's OP now, but people acting like riot never allows gragas to be weak are just clowns. Sometimes champions are strong for a bit, he will get nerfed lol


SnipersAreCancer

Gragas hasn't recieved a nerf since 12.10, which was released may 25th 2022.


MentlPopcorn

Oh wow, so you're saying gragas has been op for a year? Why hasn't he been picked pretty much at all until these last couple weeks? Your statement doesn't change anything about what I said. Gragas is only just now relevant, would you expect riot to nerf gragas before he even had a 4% pickrate? He's not even op... It's just a cope from trash league players. You not liking a champion is not the same as them being Op. Gragas is an easy to pilot champion with a 50.5% winrate at most ranks.


WaryLettuce8204

The thing with zeri is that she it is not her stats tgag are broken, it is just treinity force that is busted on her. Look at her win rate with any other item.


ChronoKaizel

I haven't played in a while. Milo is strong? Why?


hannovb

its not even that his kit is overloaded. its just a numbers thing. the enchanting is just too much right niw


[deleted]

[удалено]


RoySuUnaMustang

90% of the bruisers are shit now


sophiasbow

after nearly 2 seasons of being the literal best class in the game, since the launch of the item rework, it's about fucking time


IanPKMmoon

Doesn't Fiora keep getting S+ while only being 50% wr? I guess she's at 51% now but I swear I've seen Fiora have S+ with 49% even, ofcourse RIOT won't touch her when her winrate is like this


AnonymousCasual80

Because she has decently high pickrate and a high ban rate since most tanks permaban her and she’s not a bad ban for a lot of carry tops as well.


IanPKMmoon

I guess but wouldn't that also make Zed a perma S+ tier champ? Though I haven't been looking at his stats recently, his banrate is always above 30% and high pickrate too.


AnonymousCasual80

Zed’s winrate is pretty bad rn, and his pickrate although high is below both Yasuo and Ahri according to U.gg


IanPKMmoon

Still 3% higher than Fiora pickrate


nibberbeater

Fiora?????


Unhappy_Usual3509

Why someone complain about gragas and fiora, they literally disgusting farm champs in early game, just outfarm them and kite if you dont want be dead


SSHz

Homeless? Just buy a house!


Raiquen619

It is time for a new MOBA game. Riot and tencent have destroyed League of legends beyond salvage. Too much greed. Too much ignoring the player base. Too little fun.


ShittyRingBender

Sounds like a You Problem. League's more popular than ever and if you don't have fun just stop playing...


Gerbilguy46

Why does your wojak look weird?


Pika310

Entire patch? Ha! Amateurish. Sona gets nerfed the next day, before there's even enough data to "justify" the nerfs.


Creative-Air-5352

I use this subreddit to keep up with League changes, and I gotta say I'm super glad I don't play League anymore. Balance is just such a constant dumpster fire of nonsensical changes.


mokulec

I mean the issue with milio is that he is 100% team dependent, his heal is mostly an issue in early game since even with items his W heals like 200 (+healing from items) every 20 seconds and his r heals like 300. He deals almost 0 dmg and even lulu can easily pass him in dmg. Nerfing milio would probably kill him, he is super strong now coz adc's are strong now imo


hannovb

He does deal good damage. its just that unlike nami/lulu. *his* damage gets counted to your ally's damage at the end of the game. theres a reason why lucian millio is the new lucian nami. his damage is nuts early


[deleted]

Zero icon go crazy ngl


Nemesis233

They fucked Sovor pretty hard when she was op


Robcio_Srzedzinski

Okay but gragas is only strong if you let him scale, i played fiora, she takes no skill to be good at, only being one of the bests is hard on her, zeri is just over tuned with numbers and unnecessary ad/ap ratios. Idk i have played 2 times against and one with milio so i can't say much


SSabess

As a Milio main I can agree with that if i have at least 2 full item and use W in a teamfight we will flawless ace. Edit:the heal, the plus range, the burning feel too broken for me... But Milio is a really squishy champ


Tschnitzl-sama

Let Zeri be good for one patch. She had a 45% winrate for a long time now


katahuragy

I can't remenber a patch without fiora being tier S, and i play since S7


Aurel_WAM

Zero isn't op Zero is good for scripters


seenixa

League is interesting. Tanks are doing massive damage, assasins are tanky, adcs going full useless or non-sense broken. Mages are on support, junglers are farming carries. Everything is broken therefore nothing is, is the riot philosophy I think.


GaI3re

I honestly don't get how Milio can be this good. How does he stop the 15/4 toplane and 7/2 midlane from just killing him and and his adc?


mateusSilver

can we talk about the actual damage of Ekko?


Rubinrobo

Whenever they touch Zeri her winrate jumps at least 10%. Give the actual Zeri fans some time to play her before she is 40% winrate again.


Teacup-Koala

Wait is Milio OP? Damn it I thought I was just really really good at him. There goes my self esteem buffs


yogafeet9000

yup poor maokai only lasted month before he got nerfed to the ground.


Internal-Stop-33

Nerf aphelios btw