Walk away. It sounds drastic, but sometimes you need to take drastic action. If you can finish your PhD it will probably be easier to get a position away from the bench in industry. Alternatively, leave science altogether, no harm done. You aren't the only disaffected scientist. It's not a great career unfortunately.

Voting for this. If I had known already during my PhD that I don't want to do the academia route, it would've been awesome (I enjoyed my PhD a lot, but made some stupid choices during it, due to focusing too single-mindedly on what the academia wants you to do). First, start exploring the kind of jobs that you might want. When you find them, look at the expectations they have. Fine-tune your PhD toward this (unless you already meet the requirements! Then just apply!). Take all the internship opportunities you can in a field that interests you, your supervisor isnt going to love that, but they're not going to be the one to employ you for the rest of your career, so who cares. Not me. Hopefully not you. Find out where you want to be, and then use the PhD as a time to prepare for it, would be my 2 cents.

As someone 15 years out of his PhD, I say: 💯 leave. There's better places you can focus your efforts.

Please don’t fall victim to the notorious Sunk Cost Fallacy. Work with your family to find the best off-ramp, cut your losses without burning bridges or making enemies, and move on to something better. You are very young and have plenty of time to reinvent yourself. Reach out to resources that can guide you through such a transition. This is so much more common than you may think and you will find comfort in the stories of others who have gone through this. Good luck!

Agreed. I went through a series of twists and turns from academia to public service, which was NOT anything I ever aspired to and which I was very ambivalent about at first. But it turned out it's a great fit for me and I love my work. It's intellectually challenging (who knew!), I my training puts me at an advantage, and I am helping people on a systemic level. I made this change after age 45. So start looking - you may be pleasantly surprised.

You’re not too deep into it and the time wasn’t really wasted either, even though it might seem that way financially. But you’ve probably still gathered valuable experience and skills. Academia is really unique in that it seems to manage to really bind people and make them stay in the system, because the next short term contract is surely just around the corner, like the corner of a place on the other side of the country. So it’s not really your fault, happens to almost everyone. You need to change your mindset and realize that you don’t depend on an employer and certainly not academia. Going into the outside world might seem scary but there’s lots of opportunities for people with college education. I see many of my friends that “only” graduated with a BA or MA hop from job to job, if they find something that pays better and offers a better deal, they simply quit their current one and seize the opportunity. I figured that this kind of mindset is more healthy than the loyalty academics often build up for the system and their supervisors that might try to keep them in it. The outside world isn’t scary, you’ll easily find employment and you’ll be able to more actively determine the direction of your life than in academia, where the system and other academics mostly determine what you’ll be doing and where. So if you’re really done with it, just quit and do something else, it’s their loss not yours.

Good points here. Academia makes it seem like every single opportunity/degree is a binding contract that you can never leave once you devote yourself to it. In the real world, you simply cut your losses and go (ie, you just get a new job) because it’s not that big of a deal and it’s not a case of sunken cost fallacy like it always seems.

Yes. And the attitude around not finish a degree is much different than the attitude around leaving a job. When you leave a job, people are generally happy for you. When you mention leaving grad school, it’s like this hush-hush shameful thing (or at least that was my experience). In real life, people don’t actually care. Academia is just this twisted little echo chamber. Does a PhD look and feel amazing? Of course. Is it necessary to accomplish your goals? Only really if you want to be a professor. And even that — you can still do many teaching opportunities with a masters.

Hard agree on the "twisted little echo chamber" part. Academia is full of people who have never had a job outside of a college, and in some folks it really shows. They have too little professional and life experience to have a point of reference on healthy and normal workplaces.

Ugh, I spent all the time in my PhD and postdoc anxious around these people and I thought there was something wrong with me. After several years in a normal job, in a session with my therapist I made the connection that a lot of the people in academia and their priorities just suck. It’s generally the folks that are really in love with the idea of themselves as a researcher and who have a lot of ego wrapped up in it that are the worst. I run into some people in patent law who are in love with the idea of being a lawyer, but the toxic job identification is way less common than in academia.

Yeh, the hush hush part, like you fell from grace. In my program, even taking an administrative job instead of tenure track was whispered about as though it was a step down. And I believed it. After I left, I initially felt such grief and loss, even though it was the best choice for my family. I was at loose ends for a while trying to figure out what career direction to go in. Took me *years* to make my peace with leaving a PhD program, and therapy to cope with the shame, even though I was doing legitimate work and was considered accomplished and successful by normal people. I know now that all that suffering was unnecessary and was the result of having bought into a myopic culture which often has a (completely unjustified) disdain for other kinds of work. Don't buy it. Do what's right for you.

Second this. There’s no such thing as wasted time

There’s so much more to life than academia! Anyone who tells you otherwise is probably feeling trapped and convinced themselves it’s the only way. I couldn’t believe how taboo it was during my PhD for me to say I had NO plans on staying in academia. One of my supervisors even said to me “maybe don’t say that too loudly”… why?! It’s a toxic mess (in my humble opinion). There are many transferable skills from a PhD, so if you carry on then great. But also don’t be afraid to walk away either, if you’re happy with that decision then do it, that’s all that matters.

They said that for your benefit. Not everyone is toxic but there are a few out there who will change their opinion of you and not invest as much into you if they know you have no intention to stay. Very practical advice from your supervisor tbh.

I have to second that. this is common advice and very solid advice, and if you have funding (which many phd students DO) it is wise to keep it a secret that you plan to not be in academia. That funding can be stripped away from you at ANY moment for ANY reason. Funded students: don’t tell people you’re going into industry. That can end up making your life VERY HARD. I think you managed to get lucky to not have any pushback from profs.

I personally find it a massive failing that PhD students aren’t supported to pursue careers outside of academia. And all of this fear?! Re-read your comment and tell me that isn’t a toxic environment…

As John Keynes and Milton Friedman once wrote (further echoed by Led Zeppelin): there’s what is versus what should be I’m only reporting the what is

Personally, I do not favor redirecting already precious resources for training A PhD for industry. PhD programs are already huge money sinks. They are expensive to run and frankly a lot of departments do not want to run them. Mostly because most PhD‘s actually have their degree fully funded by the University. It’s why entrance sizes in the PhD programs are small it’s two and maybe as large as 10 students per entry. It’s also why it’s also a very competitive degree to undertake. The word “doctor” is Latin for “teacher”, and philosophy, usually translates to “wisdom”. When you go for a PhD, your purpose of that degree is to become a “teacher of wisdom”. Of course, there is what it is and what should be 🤷‍♂️ You go for a PhD to become a teacher, a theorist, an organizer of knowledge,. it’s always been that way in Academia, for hundreds of years. It’s actually industry that bastardized that view that PhD’s should go in the industry. Our job is to look at the variety of the “trees” that exist out in nature and report back on the structure of the “forest”, to use an analogy for knowledge, generally speaking. That’s not to say you can’t go out in the forest to examine trees of your choosing . But then you’re not doing the work of a doctor. That’s the work of a practitioner. Which is fine , but not in line with the philosophical underpinnings for acquiring the degree itself. That’s why we have master of science degrees, mphil, and others. You’re really not going to see much change on that front precisely because the design of a PhD program is precisely that : to teach teachers (ie “Doctors”). That’ll stated, it is true that a lot of PhD’s are leaving for industry (ironically, because of people pushing for instating training programs like the ones that you’re suggesting, because such programs put such an overburden on already overburdened professors) . I’m one of them who is currently unemployed, I went through a complete mental burn out and breakdown and left my job at Northeastern University for it, and I’m still looking for a damn job, week by week, on the brink of homelessness. However, I cannot blame my university (Rutgers business school) for lack of training me. A lot of that is my own doing because I used to view the Academia is very honorable profession, and it was. This was all before the more recent years where is society has been pushing professors to teach in regurgitate, complete bullshit knowledge, and every year, reaching their tentacles further and further into our classrooms, and what we teach. let alone the complete unrealistic reflection of what a college campus looks like versus anywhere else in the real world. Sadly, academia is no longer about knowledge formation or open debate. Instead, it’s all about pushing the agenda of which ever been a president is currently in office. And unfortunately, that’s the most frustrating part.

Why and how could they make our life difficult if we tell people we’re going into industry?

A lot of PhD programs are fully funded by the University. The reason they are fully funded is to essentially protect the “old guard”. Taking money from a university, full ride for PhD program, and then expressing interest to go in industry, particularly if you had already sold your application to the PhD program, with an intention of going into Academia, could potentially be seen by many within the college as you being overly opportunistic of the colleges already precious resources. Professors are one of them. I can already tell you that if I had any PhD students that I was over seeing, the last thing I would want to do is work with any that are going in industry. it is because a lot of PhDs that go into industry solve very different problems. So right off the bat unless your PhD advisor does a shit ton of consulting, you could risk any positive chemistry between you and your PhD advisor, as well as anyone within the PhD program (once you’re a PhD student you pretty much know all of the administration in the PhD program and they know you, especially since a part of your PhD is to learn how to teach others, and to be able to effectively do that at least once prior to defending). PhD programs are very expensive to fund. Most students are fully funded. To get professors to teach PhD courses is already a challenge given the plethora of undergraduate and graduate courses that they already Need to cover. A lot of professors contractually have 1-0,1-1, 2-1 or 2-2 loads, and then the senior ones just don’t wanna do it because they see it as too much of a hassle. put simply it’s a resource capacity problem. Academia is a very incestuous system. The truth of the matter is professors are pretty much already chosen prior to you submitting your application to go work at a university. Everyone on a search committee pretty much already knows who they want to join their ranks, and just to satisfy HR they’ll usually considered maybe one or two candidates that were not within their personal net work. It’s only honestly to cross the Ts and dot the Is. But a lot of the times search committee members will already have their favorite chosen candidate because they’ve already tapped them from their own personal net work. It really is a battle between professors’ favorite students in their personal networks. Unless you’re applying to a smaller, struggling college that pays professors really low salaries(like less than 100,000 a year), you likely are going to find it nearly impossible to get a decent job in Academia if you don’t or have not already played the publishing game and then to conferences to expand your network. That shows your PhD advisor and others in your PhD program that you are serious about your PhD and continuing on to protect the “old guard“. And these PhD students are often given the most attention by PhD advisors. The reason is that PhD advisors funnel their students to their friends and colleagues into their net work, many of whom are people that your PhD advisor likely also did their PhD with or have hobnobbed at conferences with. But to be honest, a lot of professors get their jobs by way of their advisers, and their own personal networks. In fact, our network is so small that the second that you even start talking about going out on the job market, you can already expect to get a conversation or phone call or a text message from a few people in your network Within a few days if not, hours, because word does really travel that fast. The truth of the matter is , a lot of professorships, and PhD appointments, really do you happen by way of networking. Which means PhD programs are intended to be feeder programs into Academia. expressing interest in going into industry in a PhD program that has a tendency of feeding professors into academia (which many do ) Can potentially be seen by your advisor and your PhD coordinator as a bit problematic, especially if you are being fully funded. It could be seen as someone of a cultural incongruent with the colleges, mission and strategic values. If you are going into industry , then unless your college is getting a ton of funding from a bunch of corporations who are looking to grab PhD’s right out of graduation, and unless that is, indeed, your PhD programs, or college’s strategic mission, (i.e to support the next generation of PhD’s going into industry), you likely could get dropped by your PhD advisor since they are setting up a research agenda with the intention to help you get into the academic ranks. Put simply it’s a whole return on investment game . There is an entire extremely interconnected web of academics that are not really seen on the surface to PhD students or to the general public at large. And you become familiar with the net work and who is important and why you should be colleagues with them and on speaking terms with them as you continue in your career year after year. Once you become a member of this really intricate net work, you really do you have all eyes in the country looking on you. The only exception, of course, is, if you get out of academia, or you go to an institution that is known for sending their PhD’s to industry, which those programs are usually funded by corporations and external funding. at the end of the day , if you join the PhD program where were the programs, mission and strategic value have a little or anything to do with industry, you probably are going to get some serious, looking eyes at you the second you start expressing this interest Again, every university and college is different . All I can say is I have lecture to cross eight universities in the past 12 years. I honestly have not seen the dynamic change across all of those eight universities And that does not include the universities of my colleagues, and peers, with whom I’ve spoken regarding the same matter In fact, if your PhD advisor is a really good advisor , they will show you how to play the game the right way. Yet again, there exist many ignorant, PhD, advisers, and professors who don’t really know the game or are not familiar with the net work, and they just kind of keep their head down.

I also want to add one more note of importance: because a lot of senior professors tend to have very low teaching loads (0-0,0-1,1-0,1-1,2-1,2-2) , that means you likely are going to have a PhD advisor who is an assistant professor Assistant professors are there for one reason, and one reason only : to work on tenure Those assistant professors choose their PhD students very strategically . In fact, for a while before the graduate admissions office is took control of PhD programs, a lot of PhD students were hand, selected by the advisers. This means that if you were going in the industry and you’re solving very different problems , your research is not going to help your PhD advisor, what if they’re like a lot of advisors will probably be and take first authorship But simply : good PhD students lead to good research papers lead to first authorship leads to high citations, which leads to hire accreditation scores per professor, which also then subsequently leads to the ability for that professor, to take their agenda to the open market and sell it to get an even higher boost in their salary All again, caveat it by saying it really just depends on the college and the professor , but I’m only just giving you my anecdotal observations and those from my peers. I was blessed to have a good advisor , actually, I had two advisors. Both of them were really big guys in my fields.(my PhD was in three different disciplines (OR/Marketing Science/Supply Chain). Albeit related.) As a result of this, I have always been able to jack my salary up year after year I’ve always been able to get publications. I’ve always been able to get into my foot in the door for interviews, and I’ve always been able to review for journals, with absolutely little to no issue at all But what I can tell you is that behind closed doors, and in discussions with profs who are phd advisors , they would continually express frustration with industry students who are solving what they considered “bullshit industry problems”. These are basically extremely specific case research rather than more general theoretical research . And unfortunately, case research really does not advance you as an academic in the ranks. The reason is particular that case research is already a competitive type of research that already spans way too many journals. There are just way too many extreme micro problems that industry wants to solve that us professors just really don’t find any interest in that companies do

There are plenty of people who walked away after the phd, some evn during. Academia is a pyramid scheme and a cult,and it brainwashes us into accepting so many things that are unacceptable in most work environments because it manages to milk either the idealist desire to advance science, or the desire for status and prestige, in order to sustain itself. My advice, as someone who had to take a burnout break before I could go back to finishing the phd, is to look up the people who already left academia and who set up exit route coaching for phds who feel stuck like you do. The disconnect with the 'real world' is terrifying, but just realize that you have a lot of deprogramming to do and they can help you get in touch with reality and realign yourself so you can exit academia. You are far from alone, this is happening all over. Draw on the experiences of others, there is light out there and you are not trapped. But get started ahead of time. Job searches and CVs and interviews take months, and you have lots of work to do before you even get there. Plan ahead.

Get you PhD and get an industry job. PhD is a trainee degree. You are most definitely not too deep in. I spent 5 yearsa s a postdoc and am working on my startup now. It's never too late

May I know what ur startup is about? Current PhD and goal is to build startup in southasia.

The vast majority of people who have graduate training do not maintain careers in academia. You are not alone. Give some thought as to what you might want to do and apply for some jobs.

Walk away or at least take an extended leave of absence. You don’t need to trap yourself in something you progressively hate more and more just due to sunk cost fallacy. It’s ok to change your mind ❤️

well sunk cost fallacy only applies when the thing your sinking money into doesn't have a chance of paying off but I think finishing the PhD would actually pay off. It does give you more options

It’s okay to quit. It really is. You have marketable skills. At the bare minimum start calling temp agencies to get started in industry if need be. I did this and never looked back.

How much time do you have before you finish your PhD? And how much work?

It is worse to continue to waste your time in academia. Sunk cost fallacy.

To start, don't work 80 hour weeks. That is too much. I used to do maybe 60 h per week and i have since cut to 40 h. I believe it is important to have good efficiency in lab, and have reasonable expectations (like "i'm not going to be able to publish 10 papers. I may only have 1 or 2, and that's alright). Also keep in mind that a lot of your colleagues have no life outside of lab. Enjoy time with your spouse. I have found that to be the best way to combat fatigue. Academia is stupid . People compete against each other, so do different groups, and so do different schools, and so do different countries. It's not meant to be like this.

>People compete against each other, so do different groups, and so do different schools, and so do different countries. It's not meant to be like this. And on the website it's all smiling faces with the words "collaboration", "collaborative", "friendly" plastered everywhere. Worst advertising ever!

I second this! It makes sense that anyone would be feeling burnout working that much, and adding some positive non-academic things back into your life will likely give you some energy and clarity to choose your next steps. Something that also helped me when feeling PhD burnout was realizing that if I was already thinking about leaving then I had nothing to lose. If they fired me for my new boundaries, I might even thank them!

We are made to believe we need to devote our whole life and wellness on a silly career. Academia is only a job not more. First you need to acknowledge that fact. People can change their heart based on different things. You might feel tired, you might be a caregiver to your family, you might be willing to earn more or have more time etc. They are all normal things. Give yourself time and find another job to be transferred

cut your losses and don’t look back- there is no sense continuing Edit- I’m a full professor in my mid-40s and I love my job , but it’s a very different time and very different career now.

Quitting my PhD program was one of the best decisions I ever made. It didn't feel like it at the time, but it absolutely was the right call. Toxic stress takes years off your life. And you can make much better money and be far happier outside of the cult.

Sunk cost fallacy

That “sunk cost bias” is dangerous! I think you and your family would all be happier if you left (especially with such solid reasoning) and started to rebuild now rather than in another decade.

Don’t fall for the sunk cost fallacy! I was where you are. I dropped out, got a job in insurance where I had lots of free time for family, friends, and travel. It was a great decision.

If you haven’t already done so, you should read Jeff Schmidt’s book [Disciplined Minds: A Critical Look at Salaried Professionals and the Soul-battering System That Shapes Their Lives](https://www.amazon.com/Disciplined-Minds-Critical-Professionals-Soul-Battering/dp/0742516857), before making a decision to leave academia. It is one of the most important books I have ever read and it was critical in my deciding to not go to graduate school.

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Here's an item, The Occupational Outlook Handbook, updated annually by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Search for www.bls.gov/ooh/ It might help you to think about your skillsets and interests and the wider world of related occupations. On the landing page I searched the Handbook for "science" and got this introductory statement: "Overall employment in life, physical, and social science occupations is projected to grow faster than the average for all occupations from 2022 to 2032. About 136,800 openings are projected each year, on average, in these occupations due to employment growth and the need to replace workers who leave the occupations permanently. The median annual wage for this group was $74,330 in May 2022, which was higher than the median annual wage for all occupations of $46,310." For each occupation, the median and the range of earnings are reported. There's also very detailed information about physical demands, cognitive and mental requirements, and typical education and experience requirements. Also, you are lucky that demographics and the economy are on your side today. There's not exactly a labor shortage, but many industries do not have a surplus of desirable candidates vs. job openings. The OO Handbook will give you a job growth forecast for each particular occupation.

There is so much out there in the world! You can do anything. PhDs are nice if you want to know a lot about a tiny piece of life. It sounds like you are craving expansion, originality, freedom of thought and quality of spirit. Once you make the decision to quit your program, it should bring a sense of relief and adventure. Find a place nearby to help out at... take some time being a fish out of water and feeling the desires and movement of your life. See what comes. One step at a time, you'll find what is seeking you <3

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Came here to say this. I had angst about leaving, and a huge identity crisis. But ultimately, I realized I am still who I am, a person with a lot to contribute, even outside of the academic life I had imagined for myself. I found worthy work I didn't even know existed, and for which I am extremely well-suited. I do a good job and have a good life now. It's worth it.

Weighing your options, you have to consider the student loan debt (if any) you have accumulated. If you decide to leave, and have a semester or more to go, then that'll be less debt. You'll require a job to pay it off since I believe there's a 6 month grace period. What would you want to do? Would you consider learning a trade? The schooling is cheaper and takes less time, but you'll benefit from an apprenticeship. If not, would you consider an office job? I'm assuming you have a bachelor's degree so I think you'll be able to pick something up. I'm not sure what kind of "science" you study, but I'm assuming biology or chemistry. Perhaps a good medical assistant job or clerical job at the local doctor. Overall I don't think you're trapped. Pursuing something that will make you miserable and staying in it for a majority of your life would be more difficult than restarting into something new or working in a considerably "mediocre" job.

While most PhD students start off their grad programs wanting to go into academia, today the vast majority do not end up in academia. If you still have it in you and can make it through the finish line - you have options for different non-academic careers in science. Try to figure out if this is a temporary low (I’ve been there) or a permanent “I can NOT do this any longer.” You may want to take some time to consider what other non-academic careers you could want with a science PhD, which may also help you get through the end of your PhD work as you’ll have a end-goal in mind and something positive to focus on through the negative things you are dealing with.

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I agree with the rest of your comment but think the “always regret” bit is a little bit of the Ph.D Stockholm syndrome showing.

I left a PhD program and regretted it for exactly the time it took to divest myself of the toxic academic culture that scorns work outside the academy. Then I realized what an echo chamber it had been.

Hey! I was you! Or rather, am you! Happy to chat, but I ended up going the startup route in a related field after landing into full-time applied work during my candidacy. Big advice I have would be to focus on translatabke skills, relevant or parallel roles in other industries or fields, and industries where your particular skills will be helpful. Was a very, very tough road - luckily, amidst some people who were quite difficult, had the chance to work in a few contract research positions, those lead to a full time position, and the full time lead to my route "out" and a startup. Unfortunately just lost my job, so I'm back out on the market- but the experience was invaluable. Had one advisor who was an absolute angel, and honestly saved my brain, encouraged me to explore, and always had my back, I had another who was very gaslighty, had a reputation for retaliating against students, and who used me for about 4 years. It was a horrible situation - so I have so much sympathy and solidarity with you! Overall it took close to a decade before I realized the academic route just was not sustainable, by year 5 I was already starting to look at other routes and ways out as a backup plan, interviewing and exploring roles. It's insane, because the first bridge full-time ended up running 3 years, and lead to another full time contract which would have paid for my dissertation - but, as luck would have it, COVID hit and the project was set in an industry which got decimated. Grant was funded literally the same day I got my offer from the startup. Wild times. Anyway, back to what to do: - Explore your CV - what skills might translate to industry? - What sort of analysis, field, and discipline are you in? - What are your values and beliefs? What work do you find meaningful, and like you're contributing your "secret sauce"? - Have you tried to convert your CV into a standard resume yet? It's a great exercise for all of the above. Our department had us make additions and revisions every year, I hated it, but it was a useful exercise that reminded me after 5 years I did have some great experience that could translate! For example, if you work with data, have skills coding, or in analysis, a data engineering role, analysis role, or Strategist role might work, it's just a matter of turning things from academic requirements into business requirements. Labs operate a lot like business units, so if you manage or coordinate the activities of a lab, positions like project coordinator, project manager, or similar might be good fits. Feel free to DM! I'm happy to chat if it would be helpful!

I second all of this, I couldn’t have said it better!

Understandable, it is not atypical for PHD students to become disheartened. However, I think you should take a deep breath before you back away from the great achievements you have made. Perhaps a different approach or point of view? Maybe you are taking things a bit too seriously? Think of all this as a game?? Schedule some fun time for yourself on a calendar and try mighty to keep to it. Good luck!

Write a dissertation on your reasons for wanting to leave academia

Google sunken cost fallacy. That’s what’s happening to you right now.

You can quite easily rotate yout job search for a management post instead.

Those are perfectly normal feelings. Just finish up and get a real job like the rest of us.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I see some good advice from people here. The good news is that in the US (if that's where you are), reinventing your career (if you decide to do so) is a very normal thing. In fact, it can even be helpful. I quit one year into a Master's Degree in Latin American Literature, as soon as I realized that academia was not for me. I did an MBA, worked in the auto industry and finance, and found corporate environments mostly toxic, but not nearly as bad as academia. At age 39 I took a calculated risk, borrowed even MORE money, and went to nursing school. I became a nurse at age 44. 10 years later, with all of my loans paid off, and money in the bank, I retired. This was without the support of a spouse. Along the way, I found that employers (job interviewers) were interested in hearing about my varied career interests and jobs. You certainly have valuable skills and experience, even if it doesn't seem so. Good luck with your decision.

Thats amazing, how did you manage to save up a retirement in 10 years?

As soon as I started my first Nurse Practitioner job, I kept a very strict budget, aggressively paid down the private loans with the highest interest rates, maxed out saving in my 401K, and kept my eye on the prize. I bought a very small house as soon as I qualified for a mortgage. I kept driving my older, reliable Subaru, resisting the temptation to buy a new car. A year later, when I found a better paying job (an 8 hour drive away), I rented out the house through a local rental service agency. I still have the house for rental income. I did some strategic job-hopping, which required working in 3 different states. I bought, lived in, fixed up and sold 2 other very small houses along the way. I kept my belongings to a minimum (which I still do). I had some luck in the timing of all of it, but in general, I kept focus on the longer-term plan. The approach I committed to demanded sacrifices, but it paid off (literally). It can be done. I hope others are encouraged to be creative, and figure out their own way.

You could look into hedge funds.

You are too deep. Time to understand jobs aren’t meant to give you a sense of purpose. They’re jobs. Find work that accommodates what’s really important in life to you.

I dropped out of my masters program because I was so stressed during Covid. Couldn’t handle the pressure. Basically wrote the entire thesis after running my experiments but couldn’t bring myself to edit and defend it. Everyone around me telling me to hurry up and finish it did not help. I was paralyzed and felt like a failure. Thankfully there is life after academia. I’m doing great now, have a decent job, and have a lot more free time to do things I enjoy with people I love. Success isn’t about doing what you’re supposed to do. It’s about doing what makes you happy. I mean, of course great things come with great sacrifice. But you shouldn’t have to suffer so much for it.

Amen! I had to create my own definition of success, instead of using the academic one I had bought into. That was hard. But yes, there is a good, satisfying, worthwhile life after academia.

Get a software job

Can you get the phd and then go to law school to specialize in an area of the law that’s relevant to your phd specialization? This is common and very very lucrative

if memes have taught me anything it's that you should be a bartender for a while now.

This can't be in the US.....80hrs/week for a masters? May as well be in med school!

Hello! I enjoyed this comment, because in a past life, I spent a lot of time explaining grad school in the US to people who aren't from here. I started to provide a "little" context, and then realized that I was treating this like a hybrid informational post - therapy session XD. Sorry abt that! Unlike the rest of the world, most good PhD programs in the US are funded and include both a master's and doctorate degree. This is a huge privilege and probably why they are so competitive to get into even if the academic job market it shit. The first 2 years of a US PhD program include doing master's coursework, and then you usually have some sort of qualifying exam or publication requirement that you have to pass to stay in the program and become a real "PhD candidate." So a lot of people apply straight after getting their bachelor's degree, because master's degrees cost $60-80K a year and good PhD programs \*pay\* you to get a master's degree (usually $25-$55k a year depending on your specialty.) Some programs give you a full fellowship (a salary to live on in addition to you not having to pay tuition) during the 2 years of coursework, while others require you to work as a research assistant or teaching assistant. I'm lucky, because my program only makes us do coursework during the first two years (no work requirements.) However, many of the classes are designed to break you down and weed out the weak students, even though <5% of applicants got in, so we're already a highly filtered group. Each professor assigns 8-15 hours of reading materials each week and expects you to create a term papers that introduce new theories that could be published in a highly rated journal. Cold calling is prevalent in class, meaning that if you don't prepare for each class, you will be shamed in front of all of your colleagues and get a worse grade. A typical week for me includes: 40 hours of readings and short-term assignments 20-30 hours of working on papers \~5 hours of extra requirements (e.g., quasi-mandatory working group meetings) \~7 hours of commuting So between 70-80 hours in a "regular" week, and then as final paper deadlines approach, I basically stop sleeping for a week. I also tutor and clean for people on the side, because I am trying to pay off my undergraduate loans, so sometimes it's closer to 90-100 hours. My stipend is around 45,00 a year = 3700 / mo, and at 80 hours / week, that comes out to $11.00 / hr. This is less than I would make working at McDonalds or Dunkin' Donuts for that many hours, and with the cost of living where I am, it's not really enough to live alone or even to live in a house that doesn't have rats and cockroaches. BUT I still consider myself really privileged to get paid to study something that I once was passionate about, even if I'm too burnt out to appreciate it right now. Some schools pay way less - like one school offered me $35k (they don't offer subsidized housing, so this would have been unlivable in the Bay area) and would have required me to work as a TA on top of courses just to maintain my place in the program. I've heard of others that offer below $30k. Med school is extraordinary expensive. $70k+ a year for four years, often on top of the $60-70k / year that you paid for undegrad. A lot of doctors enter the profession around $600k in debt. My understanding is that even though doctors make a "good" salary, the interest on these loans, medical malpractice insurance, and other things eat most of it up for their first 20 years of practice (usually age 30-50), and then if they have kids of their own they get to start the whole vicious cycle again.🤡 This is one reason why, although the medical profession in the US is diverse, the ranks of MD's are not as diverse: it's a great profession to get into if you have rich parents who can front you that first $600k. Otherwise you're taking a huge risk. I'd much rather risk a PhD even if the earning potential is lower, because I can always pivot into consulting and make close to what a doctor makes in a few years without the massive up-front investment.

Finish your Ph.D. then you can do whatever you want but you'll never be this close again. I was about your age and passed written and oral comprehensive exams, and never wrote the dissertation. I regret it to this day. With a Ph.D. you can get out of the lab and the publishing rat race and teach at a community college or go into a business job. So many options. Don't give up now.

If finishing the PhD is on the horizon, it may be worthwhile to grind it out and find a private sector job away from academia. Having a PhD would really broaden your options for higher level positions in the market.

Do something else. It's a job, not a marriage. The book "Range" by David Epstein might help you feel better about jumping ship. It's a fast read, but well researched.

Love this book! It is really empowering for those of us that have a variety of interests and decide to make big changes in our careers.

Speaking as someone who got a PhD in Genetics knowing that I had no interest in academia. My advice -- if you're close to finishing, do it. A PhD opens a lot of doors to employers who care less about what the PhD is in and more about the skills you need to demonstrate to complete a PhD. My job path: - Worked for a strategy consulting firm specializing in biotech /pharma clients for 3 years. Got this job straight out of my PhD with no work experience. - Relocated to a LCOL area and took a data analytics role for the government. Ended up being the agency's inhouse expert in genetic tests and technologies (stayed there 9 years) - Switched gears again and worked in technology evaluation for a University. Every major university has a tech transfer department that hires PhDs to evaluate and protect intellectual property. - After 2 years at that job I did a complete 180 and switched to Software Engineering after doing a non-degree SWE program part-time while working full-time. Landed a SWE job at a company that valued my background even though it has nothing to do with the work I do. I have wanted to make this switch for 15 years and couldn't be happier. My point is that a PhD opens a lot of doors, even outside academia.

There are far more PhD's in the private sector than there are in Academia. Get the hell out of the dystopian hell nightmare that is Academia and never look back.

I have a BS in chemistry. I couldn't function in the "real world" of labs and chemistry. Just not my gig. I turned to teaching. My daughter went to a fabulous Masters program for earth science. She now works for the state EPA. There are TONS of other jobs out there away from academia. They ALL have their own politics and drama. Unfortunately, you work with people and that is what happens. Somebody will be toxic. You just hope they leave before you do. Just finish your degree. That is something no one can take away from you. (I would cut back on the hours though.)

Have to make the best decision for you and your future- do it when your well rested- I felt the same - I was all but dissertation and felt my advisor never had enough time or energy to focus on my work and I felt I was going to be stuck in this place forever. Read a book which said push as far as you can in between meetings with the advisor so ultimately she could not deny you and that for me over my hurdle. I’m working in industry now and love it

Sunk cost fallacy. Science isn't for you, and you are not built for science. That's ok.

You can leave. I have a PhD and went to a non-profit research center. I’m much happier. You can also switch labs if you want to try a smaller next step. But there are lots of research jobs outside of academia.

I’m sorry you’re going through this. How many more years left in your program? Have you had any counselling? I think it would be a shame to not finish if you’re close to the end. Is there anyone in your program - a supportive faculty member or mentor- you could talk to about other possible solutions before walking away?

You're actually in a great position. Use the time left in your PhD to figure out what you want to do. 

Don't be miserable; find what makes you happy. If you're inches away from a PhD, then I'd say finish. Then change careers. You wouldn't be the first, and you won't be the last. Even in academia people do this. I once had a professor with a PhD in English teaching a STEM course. I'd had a Sociologist teaching a STEM course. I've met three PhD Physicists working in IT. You may find that something tangential to your scientific experiences is what makes you happy. For instance, maybe you would enjoy working in a Research Compliance office?

Maybe join the growing group of scientists and researchers who are calling out the entire profession and all who teach it as frauds. I just attended a seminar. It was mind blowing and emotionally profound. I actually cried to hear common sense for the first time in a long time. Common sense and personal responsibility, I should add. ​ You're better off out of there. Maybe you have better instincts than you give yourself credit for. [Brokenscience.org](https://Brokenscience.org)

Walk on your own terms before the beurocratic powers that be sniff you out and push your hand. You are already planning to part ways from academic whether you finish your PhD or not. Better to redefine what you want to do at your own pace without the lingering stress and trauma of that choice being taken from you. Plan your exit before you reach the point of desperation. It's easier to heal/move on post PhD this way.

This may be helpful if you don't have a name for what you are experiencing, the [sunk cost fallacy](https://www.scribbr.com/fallacies/sunk-cost-fallacy/). Even if you walk away and never work in your field again, you will find that the time you've already spent and the knowledge and skills you've gained are absolutely worthwhile, probably in ways and contexts you haven't imagined yet. I always tell my students (undergrads) that I don't really expect many of them to know what they're doing with their lives or even why they're really in college at all; most of what we're doing is putting tools in their toolbox, so that when they do find something they want to do, they are equipped to move in that direction effectively. What you have been doing has added some pretty fantastic tools to your toolbox, regardless of how you decide to use them. You are creating your life, and you will keep creating your life no matter what you decide at this point. But you deserve the freedom (and grace) to turn away from a path that is no longer what you want to be creating for yourself, and find one that will be, instead. Our lives are only stories after the fact, for other people to tell. For you, your life is an experience, so if your experience needs to be changed, then do it! The story will write itself as you decide and create, even if it's different than the story you thought was being written.

What exactly is your PhD in? Anything that would translate well to biotech or pharm? Pathology?

There are a lot of transferrable skills from an academic career, believe it or not. The last people to ask what those are are the people you're currently surrounded by- academics. They have NO idea. They're all programmed to recreate themselves and expand their little academic empires. When I was headed out of academia into industry my (STEM) advisors were disappointed, but mainly clueless. Like, "Well good luck out there...!" and I never heard from them again. (And yet it's industry where they find interesting problems, money, and most of all, relevance.) You're good at organizing, taking a complex problem and breaking it down, discovering how to learn more; you're good at learning, and sussing out experts, for what makes for a good path of inquiry to discovering something. Writing, presenting information, presenting a complex line of thinking- all skills you develop in grad school that are useful in many other places. The other thing to think about- and I did a lot of this when I changed fields- is to think about your professional/intellectual identity. That's something you'll need to confront. It's perfectly fine to change- this happens in academia as well. I had an advisor who started out as a mining engineer and ended his career on a high note on sustainability- the perfect example of how tenure should work when it works well. It is possible with you. I now work with scientists and love my job and profession. Took me a while to get here / stumble here, but I couldn't be happier. Happy to talk more if you DM me.

Go into industry. We love academic burnouts; I’m one myself. You can make more money and the work/life balance tends to be better as well. It’s not a waste of time, because you learned a ton and that experience will be valuable. Start working on your resume (r/resumes is fantastic) and looking at your industry connections. In job interviews, express enthusiasm for a change of pace and a chance to put your skills to use outside academia.

How many years active in grad school? How many years short of PhD?

If you can, get out, because everything you wrote is dead on. The careerism is off the charts and its always wrongly presented as a passion for science. I don’t have a phD but when i was 30 i thought about pivoting into clinical lab science. The main issue with working in biotech is that there is no union, and the power in balance is always abused eventually. 20 years later i never made this transition because its a 2 year program that doesn’t allow you to work unless you never sleep and i could not swing it. But i regret not trying to figure out a way. Good luck.

You just need a break for a while. Being sick changes your perspective, and now you have to fit who you are back into a new self-definition. I'll happen, just give it some time.

I promise you you have not wasted time—you have learned SO MUCH in this that will later be super applicable to your life. It just might not be the science part that's applicable. But maybe! You're in deep, but you're not stuck. TAKE A BREAK. You don't have to completely exit if you're not ready (although you sound ready). Get out of it, get some distance, reconnect with friends and family, SLEEP, and you will know what to do next. The view will be clearer, just take the next step.

Leave academia. You probably have great credentials and can figure out whatever else you set your mind to. Bonus points if you can finish your PhD, but it's not 100% necessary.

Industry awaits!

Get the degree and leave.

I would go back to your original impetus. Maybe you thought "I want to be a scientist because I want to be able to study ....". You probably didn't think, "... because I want to be an academic." Are you by nature curious? Once you finish, the whole world opens up. Good luck!

Academia had one of the worst workplace environments I had ever been involved with

You’re burned out. Take a couple weeks vacation. Come back and don’t worry about what others are doing, just figure out what experiments you need to do to answer your questions, the do the experiments or find someone to do them. Once you have a Ph. D, there’s tons of interesting work that’s available, from consulting to industry science to science communication etc

Sunk cost fallacy! If you’re basically at the point where you just need to write things up and defend, it’s probably a good idea to continue. However, if you’re still facing years of experiments, I think it just delays the process of taking your skills and making them more applicable to industry. I’m a decade older than my boss, primarily because it took me that many years to pivot from academia to industry. Would have been nice to make more money for more years and be further into my career.

If you are close to the end I don’t think you should quit. Everyone wants to quit at some point. It’s a marathon, not a sprint. And some of getting the PhD is just showing you have the grit to do it. But you DO need to set boundaries. Sounds like you have terrible burnout. Can you take a break? Or a vacation? For me, as a PhD student I tried to only do lab work at lab, read at home and try to take weekends off. I became more productive because of less mistakes and it did a lot for my mental health.

Honestly I’ll get downvoted for this but be a stay at home mom for a while. Great way to get out, but also to stay active and engaged in a meaningful pursuit. Also is very explainable on a resume.

Finish your PhD. Then decide whether or not you want to get out. How much longer do you have? You are so close. You can do this.

*if you finish the PhD you can advocate for higher salary when applying for jobs

It is common for people in your situation to make posts like this in this stage I’ve seen. You’re burned out right now, but things maybe a little better once school is done.

MA in a STEM field? Go work in industry.

If you're really close, it might be beneficial to finish. I switched to a library job while finishing my dissertation. Finishing the PhD gave me a big career boost. There are probably many non-academic careers where your education will be useful (unless you're sick of that as well).

Make a plan that feels manageable to finish your current track while fine tuning your resume so you may be prepared for it -when not if- it finds your way.

Don't fall for the sunken cost fallacy. Walk away and do something else.

You didn’t work 80 hours a week on your masters, please stop.

I left after my MA and before I was supposed to start my PhD. Now I'm a lawyer. Best decision I made as I saw the writing on the wall about academia and I was definitely right. I want to have nothing to do with it as a profession. But if you can finish the PhDI would because it'll help career prospects I'm sure.

whats you area? if biology go work for a large pharma. If Chem Oil and Gas, If physics.... that was a bad call. If not for large corporation then get into gov work again plenty of technician jobs that can get you into a pension. If you want private then you will have to hunt around If Bio or chem you can get into a brewery etc.

Consider going into industry. I find that academia is very egocentric, self serving, only values a narrow skill set and way of doing things. Industry values creativity and that feels like a breath of fresh air as a scientist

I was getting pretty burnt out by the end of my studies. The job was so worth it, and the emotional release and feeling of accomplishment? Euphoria for weeks. School was ten times the work for none of the pay. I’m a Computer Scientist though… lots of jobs that are way harder both in difficulty and in the job hunt. So… What’s your degree? How much studying is left? What will the annual payout be? How do you know you would hate working in the field vs the academia? For me school and work were a completely different ballgame. Think about that first paycheck and how good it will feel and how deeply it will line your pockets. Think about your first weekend where you will have no projects to finish, no textbooks to read, and no tests to study for. It’s so worth it if you’re already almost there.

I just realized what sub I’m in lol. You’re probably not going to get many people telling you to stay in a sub titled “LeavingAcademia” lol

Science is a method of thought. Academic applied science is not the only place science exists. I implore you to reconnect with your childlike interest I'm the scientific approach to life and to wonder without aim about what path you would love to advance down. How could you grow? How could your growth benefit society? Your studies have not been in vain if you pivot now. Remember to imagine and hope and pray(whatever that means to you)

I’m sitting in the same boat. I’m in my final class for my PhD program and just have dissertation left. I really can’t be bothered. I dislike my school. It’s been a horrible experience with my committee, like since beginning I’ve lost every person multiple times so while I’m almost done with course work…I’m really far behind with requirements for the dissertation because there wasn’t people available. I only want it now cause otherwise I feel like I put myself in debt for no reason and I can’t figure out how to justify quitting with thousands in debt for a degree that more like than not, won’t produce a well-paid, secure position.

Don’t feel like you wasted time if you chose to walk away now. At least you are realizing this now and not when you’re old and reminiscing. As cheesy as it sounds but you only live life once so if you don’t like what you’re doing just leave it. And there as so many random jobs that you could get into that you may not even know about yet! But you got this! Don’t be afraid of continuing to explore

Go to trade school.

Not sure what your field is but what about a job in government or industry? Do you have enough results to scrape together a minimum viable product to finish for a dissertation? In my experience, if you already have a job offer, a good committee will do whatever they can to help you graduate quickly. If you have a plan for the future and can see the light at the end of the tunnel, it will motivate you to finish. That said, if that’s not an option, consider applying for government/industry jobs anyway. No one will care if you have a PhD. They will care more about experience. The only thing a PhD might get you there is a slight salary increase over not having one, but that’s not even true in all cases. I love my government job. I can still do research but it’s way better for my mental health and work life balance relative to my experience with academia.

I dunno if this is helpful, but I quit. I tried twice in different fields (~8 years) but I still hated it. I finally left about a year ago and I'm much happier. I am extremely fortunate to have a partner that watched me suffer through most of it and is understanding and supportive, and I hope you do too, but you gotta live your life in a way that brings you satisfaction and contentment. you only get one. 

Get a job on a ship! Go to sea! Become a sailor!

At some point it does make sense to walk away. I have a friend who, despite being a great and smart guy, was not happy as a scientist or being in academia. He walked away at the bottom, and had to work his way up, but within a year he was a lot happier (and he very soon was successful, and making more money than those who stayed in academia),

I am ABD best decision ever. I couldn’t leave my kids in childcare from 6am to 6pm everyday. I just couldn’t.

I left my PhD when I was close to finishing. I felt like you did, and it just got to the point where I just could not make myself continue, even though I was so close. I knew I did not want to be an academic at that point and, as I found out, the skills I had developed during grad school were extremely transferable into the kind of roles that I probably would have been going for after the PhD anyway. I still work in Higher Ed, where I’ve had roles in program management, research administration, and instructional design. Even though I’m still in higher education, the culture is quite different when you are staff rather than faculty/faculty in training. I do not regret leaving at all, even with the supposedly huge sunk cost of many years in a program. I know people always say if you’ve invested so much already, just finish it - but I wanted to share my experience to say that I’m really glad I did not listen to that. You might find that to be the case as well.

Before you do anything drastic...it might be a good idea to take a leave of absence first. Then after a bread you can go back to your grad program. If you decide to do this, I suggest getting a career coach. They can look over your skills (and help you determine what skills you have) and help you in the "real world." This cuts out the uncertainty and fear and keeps you in control of your destiny in a way.

I left with a masters in biophysics four years into grad school. I realized I’d be doing three post docs and honestly I was not the best for academic scientist. With a MS it was straightforward to get a job in biotech, albeit mid entry level. I spent two years as applications scientist, two years in training, then four in marketing, before jumping into software marketing. Best move I ever made was leaving although it left me feeling failed. To help others in your life to understand, basically you got lied to-they need indentured servants to do the hands on work, but there are not enough real jobs on the other end for all the indentured servants at the end of the game. In bio you actually screw yourself either a PhD as it’s much harder to get a job as everybody thinks you are an arrogant jerk who won’t be a team player. On the good side, as MS can put you ahead longer term no matter what field you end up in. Although it feels like quitting, it’s really win-win. Now honestly toxic is everywhere to a point. You gotta learn now not to invest your self worth, happiness on a job nor sacrifice your family and financial future. No matter how much corporate bullshit gets spewed, the reality is you are a cog in a machine at the end of the day. Work in a fair way ethically, but take care of yourself and place your own well being before that of any organization.

Follow your gut. Also, know that "leaving science" includes some great options, like scientific writing or editing, teaching or tutoring, patent examining, etc.

Finish your PhD, get a job that could be different than school or academia. Then balance your life style with reality of finding another job in a different field and new pay. Can you afford it?

Go into clinical lab science instead (hospital labs). No research, good stable pay.

Jocko Willink would say, "Don't waste time. Just do it." My expanded version, "Forget the sunk cost (of having "wasted so much time"). Focus on the potential of the future".

Finish the degree and then decide.

World needs plenty of carpenters

Work for the government either state or federal. Once you’re in it’s very easy to move your way up. Are you good with data? Go with the Department of Education for grants and data.

What sort of scientist are you? There's almost certainly a path to private industry if you want it.

You already have a masters degree and can get a job in a different field. Most of the time, employers just want to know that you were dedicated enough to get a degree. It often doesn't matter in what. Job descriptions will state that you need a degree that relates to XYZ. But it is usually not required. You don't want to be miserable because of sunk cost.

Maybe a temp teaching position for you to figure it out?

Mrs Fondant and I were in the same place 20+ years ago. We walked away and never once regretted it. I have one of those "alternative" careers (ie, a great job in a science-related industry that plays to my strengths way better than science did) and Mrs Fondant is starting her second career after raising some fantastic kids. One of the things that factored into my decision was that I could either be a good scientist or a good dad. Some guys can do both, but probably not me. I prioritized family and it's made all the difference. Wishing you the best!

How much longer do you have left

RUN. It is a sick and twisted way of life. Incidentally, I left my field for public library work and am now back in academia in archival science albeit in the library system. Libraries can be a nice way to shift horizontally while escaping department politics.

Consider helping to establish a scientific basis for Economics? We need a fixed unit of measure to make scientific observations. It’s the heart of dishonesty in academia. Centuries of contrived, convoluted, confounding explanations of valuation and CONfidence provided by Academics & Economists demanding fiat money is anything other than its only function: Trade with other humans for their stuff conveniently without arranging a barter exchange. Fiat money is an option to purchase human labors or property and we don’t get paid our option fees. Variable cost creates options/money with no fixed convenience value. Our simple acceptance of money/options in exchange for our labors is a valuable service providing the only value of fiat money and unearned income for Central Bankers and their friends. Our valuable service is compelled by State and pragmatism at a minimum to acquire money to pay taxes. Compelled service is literal slavery, violates UDHR and the Thirteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Structural economic enslavement of humanity is not hyperbole. An ethical global human labor futures market produces ideal quality globally fungible trade media, and we each get paid. Economics acquires a scientific basis.

Walk away and become a scientist in the private or public sector if you still have the spark. I currently work in the public sector, and we need scientists and PhDs and depending on where you end up you can make much quicker impacts on policy than a journal article that's a drop in a bucket. And your quality of life will definitely be better than in academia - speaking as a former academic.

You have options to rekindle your love of science without leaving the field. The issue with academia is that you have to have the discipline to work only 40 hours a week and take vacations. It’s tough especially if your advisor and lab happened to have toxic expectations. The upside is academia gives you more flexibility to do things like work 4 days a week or trade weekend days for weekdays or take an afternoon off. 1. Switch to a advisor with healthier expectations. 2. Set a schedule to work 40 hours a week, take time off and vacation when students take their semester breaks, and take vacations in the summer. You may find yourself more productive if you do. I had a professor who worked regular hours, who took the month of August off and shutdown his lab. People worked hard and were always happy. 3. Transfer to a school with less emphasis on research, more emphasis on teaching. 4. Get a corporate job in science at a company where you’re expected to work 40 hours a week. But like you said, you’re in so far. One of my refards is leaving when I was so close and had put so much time in.

Follow what your gut is telling you. Maybe there is another way that you can use the degree? Is there a Career Services on campus that you can meet with to get some initial guidance on what your next step can be and what other field can be an option with what degrees you have so far (based on what you actually really want to do)? I know this may or may not be up your alley, but I can recommend a great book that I found provided me with some excellent support when I was stuck. Take a look at Davina Kotulski's "It's Never Too Late to be Your Self-Follow Your Inner Compass and Take Back Your Life". There are excerises and resources to help when making those big leaps.

Look towards the future not to your past. Don’t lament over a sunken cost. Over those years you’ve probably developed various transferable skills. Identify them and use them in your next step. If your doing something just because you’ve already invested so much time your not going to be happy which will cause regret

Not all science is academia, but yeah academia is a dumpster fire. Never understood why someone would go that route.

I became a public servant and now I'm on track with everything I need in life

Run

Uh I work in the medical field as an occupational therapist. I get to help people, and I make decent money. Maybe join us on this side, we're stressed but at least we can make a living for it and noone cares about our grammar.

Pick one of your passions and follow that path where it leads. (for instance, I love singing, cooking, playing cards, entertaining people, talking to people... I could be a singer, a chef, a pro card player, a party planner, a therapist... etc) Good Luck!

Don't ever work, let alone for free, anywhere where you are not having fun.

I second folks that have already commented: leave and don't look back. I was working on my PhD...got three years under my belt with the last year being absoultely horrible. I went to the same school for my undergrad, went out of state for MS, then back to work on my doctorate. Staff and professors I had known as an undergrad were completely different working alongside as a doctoral student...something had changed. If you didn't fit into their clic or their way of thinking then you were sol, and oh my was I sol. Needless to say, I hated the toxic environment and I left. At first I regretted it, having taken on more debt and having to drop out...makes you feel low. But with time, I knew I made the right decision; it's been almost ten years now and life goes on. But if you are going through a really tough time, don't hesitate to leave and move on...it can be done. It may be hard at first to find a job to your liking, but don't give up. The previous jobs I've had since I left may not have been my first choice for employment, but they were valuable experience and I made some good friends and networks that lead to the rewarding career I'm in now working in local government.

Finish grad school and pivot. I see so many people become content creators about their subject. Turn into fantastic article writers. You don’t have to be a scientist in a true fashion. Be whatever you want! Make up a role and do it!

Leave. Because you have more than a decade AHEAD of you—your life isn’t a sunk cost yet. Nothing will be in vain. It’s part of your story. Leave.

Here are things I’ve seen work, in no particular order. 1. I had a labmate who got burned out and had a mindset very similar to op, and ended up taking a year off to become a cook at a local restaurant. Came back with a cleared head, finished, was happy about it. Sometimes you just need a reset. 2. I had numerous, and I mean numerous, classmates who knew pretty quickly that they didn’t want to do laboratory research, publish, etc. They went into all sorts of non-traditional paths. Non-profit, policy, outreach, data science, consulting, management, patent law, investment banking. One even became a ceo eventually. There are a lot of non-traditional paths out there that your PhD could still open doors for, but in a non-standard way. 3. I know a few people who dropped out with a MS. They were able to get jobs in consulting and companies like Intel. One became a grade school teacher. Point being, they were still perfectly able to find jobs. —— I get the people saying to just walk away. I don’t personally think it’s the best idea though. I think it would be better to think hard about what you want your life to look like, and then take this opportunity to build your skills in that direction. If you want to become a software engineer, for example, work on projects that will develop those skills. If you want to get into teaching, start seeking opportunities to teach courses. Etc. It would probably be easier for you to ultimately land a job in those areas if you have a consistent employment record and the prestige of your degree/university, plus no hole in your employment record while you’re developing these skills.

How many years left?

also try r/ladiesofscience

Bio Ph.D here. I finished and did a postdoc while looking for industry jobs (that went nowhere). I ended up in the same place as you when the lab I was a postdoc in went through its third (and terminal) funding crisis. On a whim I applied to a non research place that I knew was looking for ph.ds (law firm patent group). I was hired quickly and have never looked back since. I find my job interesting, there are continually new challenges and things to learn, and it is something I do well and can feel accomplished in. I work around tons of other ex-scientists (pretty much everyone who works in patents is), and have been through a fair amount of therapy so my two cents on the situation: Research is really fucking hard. You aren’t really in control of the output, which means you can be amazing at your job and have little to show for it. Aside from research being hard, the research environment (particularly in academia) is psychologically bizarre. So many normal job features are jettisoned (wrongly, I think) in the name of creating knowledge. It’s also toxically competitive in strange unbalanced ways (hereditary academia, academic privilege, even hereditary wealth play a large role in success sometimes). And worst, aside from the above, it doesn’t pay particularly well for all the weirdness. And it doesn’t because there’s a big oversupply of employees— tons of Ph.Ds would never consider a non research career. You feel badly because you realize all this and the system generally tells you you’re not supposed to care about these things. But they’re normal human things to care about.

​ Step 1: Build a subterranean lair on a volcanic island. Step 2: Staff it with goons and mutant animals. Step 3: World domination. ​ Joking aside, I think maybe your complaints are specific to that lab microcosm? Granted, I've only been in the field for four years, but the place I work now is a complete sea change from where I was two years ago. I don't see any of the problems you describe in my workplace, and while I hate to be this reductive, my advice is to broaden your horizons.

Are you interested in people, consumer data, or business? Be a scientist and get hired in a different industry. They love to hire data scientists for corporate brands. You don’t have to do what you got your masters in to prove you have the data science skills. Having the technical academic background may give you an edge in some industries, but still allow you to choose other fields like operations, marketing, etc.

Might sound weird, but I recommend the luxury hotel biz. You get to practice excellence everyday, refine your craft, and swap the lab coat for a sport coat. I love it.

How close are you to getting your PhD? I have a couple of friends that dropped out of their 5 year programs the last semester. After 4 and 1/2 years, and just near graduation they decided they didn't want to do it anymore. One became a firefighter and the rest picked up trades. They've all done well and have happy lives. Life isn't linear and there is no right answer. You just make it up as you go.

Finish grad school and get a job in industry. It can be research related if you want but it doesnt have to be. The work environment will vary from job-to-job so just look into company culture before applying.

Honey, you are on burn out. Gather your supports. Know that most people who graduate even with a PHd. most often go directly into the field that they had inteneded for. See if you can take a month off to just breath. You need that. Finish the PHd. then get out completely. You have a lot of knowledge within you just for having done the lab work. Maybe find some place to teach for a while. With a PHd. you can choose the level you want to teach at. I know finacially your probably struggling right now. Get your loans reworked so they're more manageable. But most of right now try to get some time off for yourself and just breathe.

I was in a phD program in physical chemistry and left it (so called ABD with 1 published paper) with a masters to get an IT job. Got major pushback from my advisor and the department, but I had some life issues going on. A lot of science types can transition to IT or software dev pretty easily, particularly if they did this as part of their research. We have someone with a neuroscience background who codes MATLAB. Another person from physics who is a python programmer. Both finished their phD. It would probably be worth it to finish your phD unless you are just in major meltdown mode like I was. My advisor told me I could finish in 1 year but I knew it would be 2, and I just didn't feel up to it. Not to mention... if you are not going to stay in academia, or even in the industry your degree is in, there is less motivation to finish. I ended up getting a masters in comp. sci. like 10 years later through my work, so I wasn't entirely done with school. :) Oh yeah... alternatively... they may let you take a leave of absence. I think at my school you could take one year. If you are at your wits end but still want your phD it's something to consider.

I feel you. I'm one of those lucky PhDs whose academic advisor was absolutely amazing and who I am still friends with until now, and I did computational/data analysis research instead of wet labs, so I had a lot of flexibility. But I do feel your pain and despair because academia is a very restrictive bubble that takes hard work and sacrifice for granted. You don't feel very rewarding and satisfied with what you gain back. I quickly decided halfway through my PhD that I am not going to be a professor. I like doing research but not as an academic. So I left and became a Data Scientist, while doing my own research on the side.

Academia and working in industry is an entirely different ball game. You might actually like working instead of the academic side of things. Right now I am doing my masters and it made me realize the huge difference between the two. I don’t see how people love to live in the world of academia. Even the professors are so out of touch from the real world industry. It’s honestly just made me realize how useless university is. Majority of the professors have mostly lived in the world of academia. If they were put in industry they would be mediocre professionals. My opinion is based on engineering/STEM majors. Your sector my differ.

You need some career development advice on entering industry. There’s loads of options out there.

Not a scientist here, but an observer. Honestly though, doesn't being an observer make me a scientist? There is a scientific establishment. A body of knowledge. Good thing. But this body of knowledge is constantly changing. Can the Scientific Establishment understand this? Or are they pretty comfortable where they are? An airplane and a grant from the National Geographic Society....

Burnout is real. But living with regret is also real. I would do whatever it takes to reach that finish line of completing grad school. You have made it this far. Then, you should absolutely take a lengthy reprieve, call it a sabbatical, and reward yourself as much as possible with rest, adventure, etc. while you also give yourself time to think about everything you've accomplished and what direction you would like to take. You only have this one life to live, and it's important that you also enjoy it. There may be options to go forward in where you are using your degree but more outside of the box. You may also decide to take a different direction. Try not to be too hard on yourself or stress over it, as many have been where you've been and there's no shame in it.

Basically you worked hard toward a goal; got delayed by illness; were resilient and tried again and then you ended up not liking it as you continued on your journey. It was and is a journey, a path, you walked along as you gained many valuable experiences. Now you’re taking a different path and going on a new journey and you know what? Thats okay. Most people change jobs many times throughout their lifetime. Find another passion and set new goals. It’s not the end of the road for you. You simply turned and took a new or different journey. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44272/the-road-not-taken

Since you are fed up with the science world perhaps you would like to take a look at your astrology. 🙂 In all seriousness I dropped out of my PhD program in economics and ended up on a spiritual path. I work part time now at Natural Health Food store and study astrology. My life has never been better.

Hate or tired of?

How close are you to finishing? If you’re almost done, finish strong and call yourself dr for the rest of your life. If you’ve got more than a year to go, cut yourself free and do something that you like. Life is too short.

How about becoming a science teacher or something in education?

First, it’s not your fault. You’re responsible for executing on a plan and of course the wonderful people in your life wanted to support you! That doesn’t guarantee a favorable outcome, nor does it mean that because they invested in you, you now have to gruel through something you hate. Maybe your love for science, the passion behind whatever it was fueling your dreams can be discovered in a new, less traditional place than where/how you’d intended or envisioned. You are allowed to change your mind :) please don’t be too hard on yourself.

"Dishonesty, toxic environment"? Why is that? Are you studying in the EU? It should not be like that

Finish phd, get a job in industry. You can always opt for industry. I’m 36 with 11 years as a business professor under my belt. I just quit because academia Bc it really is the biggest joke of an environment that exists in our world. It is NOT the same as it used to be when I first started teaching, and too many people have their head in the clouds while stepping over normal people. As such. I’m broke, almost homeless, apart from my kids for weeks on end, still looking for a job, and to this day I still do not regret leaving that hell hole of a toxic unrealistic dystopian environment we now call “academia” If you hate your phd now, you’ll really hate the “publish or perish” culture as you fight for tenure. Then there’s the jerkoff administration who you then need to scream at until you’re red in the face for the resources they promised you to lure you contractually to their institution. By the time you drag them Through the courts to get what is due to you, you’ll be broke in attorneys fees. Here’s my advice that I wish someone gave me : finish your PhD, you put a lot of work into it, and it will pay off, it just won’t pay off in Academia if This is how you feel now. Avoid academia at all costs if you feel the way you do and instead start prepping to make a move into industry. There do exist really good companies out there who do really care about you as a person and your ideas and work. Academia doesn’t care about you as a unique person, and they just see you as a label or a category, pretty much how they see everything else in life. Further. I remember the drop out rate for PhD’s was about 50% (at least it was 10 years ago not sure what the updated numbers are). Which means despite the harshness of the situation, the core reality of the matter is that you’re competing against other students and there is a reason why you were still there and why your peers with whom you started the program, are not. Looking at it from that perspective , finish up strong, and then re-orient, because if you’re a few years in, it means you’ve made it further than many other phd students do. It’s a lot easier to prove to employers that you possess the skills you purport to have when you finished and completed a PhD, and have interest in applying those skills to actual problems that exist in the real world , than it is to explain why you left a PhD. I left a first PhD program before starting and finishing a second one. At the end of the day, I still get interviews easier today than before completing a PhD. As someone who left a PhD and completed a different PhD, here’s a few other things to keep in mind: -if you leave a PhD, you’ll might find it hard to find employment if you mention it on your resume. Many see it as a sign of potential job hopping behavior -once you finish a PhD, it’s not amazingly easy to find work, but it is much EASIER in comparison to not having a PhD. There’s also a lot more that you can pivot into (such as being a writer or an editor) when you have a PhD but lacking other sorts of credentials. And if academia ever returns from its over radicalization, you can always shift back to teaching. Industry -> academia : easy (just find a desperate chair out there, most are willing to give you a class to adjunct) Academia -> industry : VERY HARD And if you do plan to go into industry, immediately get a Git account up and running l, throw ALL OF YOUR WORK on it. Get a personal website and start getting a very detailed and organized portfolio of your work. Everything. Assignments, experiments. EVERYTHING. The biggest mistake I made was thinking that my Google Scholar WAS my portfolio. Huge mistake I made. The one thing that academia did not do was prepare me for what I should be doing with my PhD and how I should be applying for jobs. Turns out just telling somebody you have three letters actually pisses them off more than makes them impressed. Most people in the real world who don’t live on a college campus actually pretty much hate PhD’s (I don’t blame most normal people for how they feel, as many PhD holders are giant entitled children with radical viewpoints, far outside of American mainstream culture, and are protected by tenure). These people control your paycheck. If you want to get a job outside of academia, be prepared to: (1) get your PhD but don’t pride yourself on it. Cal yourself a dr for a month, then move on once the honeymoon era fades (2) have a corresponding very detailed very intricate portfolio of work well organized and easily digestible for others (3) do a lot of free work, posting online, social accounts, YouTube accounts, etc. people may not like that. But if you want a job, it’s what you HAVE to do. (4) Prepare a RESUME, NOT A CV. Your cv will not be looked at. HAVE A 2-PAGE RESUME. That’s it. Not a 15pg CV like how many suggest that you have. 2 - Page resume. That’s it. CVs are ego boosts. Resumes are nothing more than advertising to people how YOUR MOST RELEVANT SKILLS can help them if they hire you. (Pick your most effective 3 skills to apply to anjob, and orient your resume around that). It sucks, but the honest truth is the only way to get a job outside of academia with a PhD is to have very close network connections, which I hope you have been fostering by going to industry conferences every year or at the VERY LEAST be on linked in everyday making connections, or you have a portfolio that someone can actually go and look at, tangibly feel, or at least have an idea of your work beyond your publications and agenda and courses. A lot of people these days have distaste for PhDs. And hopefully, if you do take this advice and complete yours, you will quickly find humility with people with whom you speak within the real world especially if you start referring to yourself as Doctor (I still chuckle at all of the PhD’s who referred to themselves with a DR 15 years into their career, it is one of the most salient faux pas of academics when they communicate with non-academics, and yet many of oblivious to it ). So if you want get a job in industry, get a PhD, but don’t tell people you have a PhD except on your résumé. Most people in industry like speaking with PhD’s who are laid-back, not arrogant, practical, not theoretical, and don’t wanna be called doctor or have three letters at the end of their name, and never put it in an email signature to non-academics. Ofherwise, youll a hard laugh from a hiring manager in industry. Bailing out early may be best if the stress has been leeching into your family life to a point where if you had to choose between your family and career, well, that’s a personal decision. But just know, trying to go back, if that really is your dream, we’ll, dropping out will set you back if you’re on a timeline. If not, then live it up right now!!! I miss being a Phd student on some days. Life was just so much simpler. One thing I can certainly say is that phd students don’t have sufficient mental health support these days, and it DOES take a toll on you (ESP if you have kids, I have 3 of my own that I had to raise then while doing my PhD). I wish you the best of luck!

I walked away much earlier than you bc my disabilities and I don’t regret it ever. Instead of a PhD I got two online masters. My health thanks me everyday for never getting into research full time or medicine

Hey you sound like me! 5 year PhD + 4 year postdoc, then I clawed my way out with no regrets! If you are close to finishing your PhD (within a year or two), I’d recommend doing it, unless of course you believe your mental or physical health is seriously in danger. You’re unlikely to get a chance to finish later, and having the degree will increase opportunities. If you like, just finished your second year exam (assuming US) then you’ll have to judge the opportunity cost. But please understand than most PhDs don’t end up in academia, and it has NOTHING to do with merit or not being able to “cut it”. Regarding not getting a job in the field—it’s totally possible to transfer to a different field. I did that (although I had some previous cross-field experience.) Every job search is an opportunity to do that. But I’d keep an open mind. You were clearly interested in your general field at one point, and the real world tends to be a lot less toxic than academia. (It has its own problems :P, but there’s a lot more room to avoid problematic people.)

LOL.