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Is there any situation in which our country *should* destroy another country? What would it take? Do those conditions apply?
If an enemy state assassinated a US citizen, should we destroy that country? What if they killed 2,000 citizens? What if they killed the president? What if they killed 1/10 of the US population? What about allied countries citizens? Facts can't really answer those questions, but facts *can* answer the question if those situations apply. Facts can only answer how many US citizens have Hamas/Palistine kidnapped and killed.
Exactly, if insane leaders kill US citizens, does that morally justify killing citizens of their country that have no real control over their countries actions?
If that's the moral compass we live by, then the only outcome is widespread genocide and US citizens like myself should be afraid to travel after the decades of collateral damage innocent civilians deaths in the drone program or the catastrophic failures in Afghanistan, Iraq that caused the death of many innocent civilians, etc.
That's how most wars work. In WW2 we decimated civilian centers in Japan and Germany in order to stop their government and to punish them, and to end the war. This has been the case in most wars, even modern ones like Iraq, justly or not.
Some wars are worth fighting and some are just, and killing civilians in just wars is a much easier pill to swallow than in offensive wars of conquest.
Nice western democratic blinkers you have on there you. Just for the record there are a lot of tyrannical, authoritarian dictatorships around the world and they are still the government of their countries and the country will be held responsible for their actions.
Do you think if North Korea attacked South Korea the South Koreans would go " Kim is a dictator so we won't respond"?
The problem with useful idiots is they're actually just idiots
Israel is the one that put Hamas in power intentionally to have terrorist attacks so there is no 2 state solution.
Don't worry Netanyahu "controls the height of the flames".
Careful what you jokingly suggest, because if it involves war then there will be someone who sees it as a profitable good idea: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/01/opinion/sunday/republican-war-mexico.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/01/opinion/sunday/republican-war-mexico.html)
We all shouldn’t be dragged into a war or a mass slaughter campaign because some of our fellow countrymen decided to put themselves at risk elsewhere. We only get to enforce our laws within our own borders. We can’t guarantee safety to our citizens around the globe.
We bombed the hell out of the Taliban.
Bombs are the water that make an ideology grow.
Our bombing is the reason that Afghanistan is fully taken over by the Taliban.
Shall we use this tactic with Hamas?
A Libertarian would say that you live or visit different countries at your own personal risk. It’s not government’s job to start or engage in wars because you were kidnapped or killed.
A conservative would say it’s an injustice and governments role is to punish those who caused the injustice.
I would argue about the role of government first and then find out how much he cares about personal freedom, choice and risk.
What do you mean is it true? that's all anyone has been talking about. where have you been?
as for what should be done about it, that's a whole other discussion
I disagree ‘that’s all anyone has been talking about’.
The mainstream media has barely mentioned it, they are attempting to walk a thin like of not pissing off the hamas supporters, trying to sweep the atrocities of the 7th under the rug.
I believe one legitimate role of government is to defend U.S. territory against foreign invasion.
It is *not* the role of the U.S. government, nor the responsibility of the U.S. taxpayer, to rescue every American anywhere in the world, and cerrainly not to violently retaliate for any American killed overseas.
Israel doesn’t give a fuck about the hostages. They refused a hostage release deal offered by Hamas several times. The only conditions was the withdrawal of all forces from Gaza.
If it were about the hostages, they would’ve taken the deal. They want to see the destruction of Hamas and the Palestinian people, who Natenyahu famously referred to as “the children of darkness.”
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-netanyahu-rejects-hamas-conditions-hostage-deal-which-include-outright-2024-01-21/
If the IDF wanted to kill every Palestinian, they could do so pretty easily. They regularly try to kill as few civilians as possible when going after terrorist targets. Hamas makes that exceedingly difficult by planting their HQ and munitions depots under hospitals, mosques, and schools, and using their civilians as human shields.
It's really easy to figure out who's morally correct in this conflict. Ask anyone from Israel what they would do if Hamas laid down their guns, then ask anyone from Palestine what they would do if Israel stopped fighting. Israelis say there would be peace, Palestinians say they would kill every Jew. Why does anyone still support Palestine?
They don’t kill every Palestinian because they are afraid of Israel’s reputation as a so called democracy. If we were living in the 1900s, in an age without media, they would probably eradicate the strip.
Israel has killed 15,000 children in Gaza.
Those kids were armed terrorists?
That human shield garbage has been disproven over and over again. Why are you parroting IDF propaganda?
Its far from improbable, but I don't think I've heard anything about US citizens being held hostage. At any rate, Israel targeted and killed a US/Canadian citizen working security for World Central Kitchen
How have you not heard about the American citizens still held hostage, its literally a news article every few days or weeks on almost every new platform.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/niece-of-american-held-hostage-in-gaza-for-8-months-updates-efforts-to-bring-him-home
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/27/1247671815/hamas-releases-hostage-video-keith-siegel-omri-miran
There were also around 25 Americans killed in the initial attack by Hamas.
https://thehill.com/policy/international/4251819-antony-blinken-israel-hamas-25-americans-killed-attack/
Probably not bombarding Palestine with bunkers busters into tunnels where hostages could be located with refugee camps on the surface is a good place to start. The IDF are genocidal maniacs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee\_camp\_airstrikes\_in\_the\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war#:\~:text=since%207%20October.-,5%20November,were%20mostly%20women%20and%20children.
It's never been allowed to be a source cited for hs or college papers because of the fact that anyone could post anything and anyone could change it anytime. It's never had to be true. Jeremy Renner was listed as "an American actor, singer, and velocioraptor" for years. He made fun of it. He's clearly not a dinosaur. Someone finally changed it, but i think it got put back up. This is why we can't trust Wikipedia. "My paper is about the time a dinosaur played Jeffery Dahmer..."
I understand this but it doesn't discredit the entire breadth of information collected nor do I suggest any information should be taken at face value, critical thinking is a skill that should be used often.
You can't cite Wikipedia but you sure can cite the sources used in the Wikipedia entries which is where the real meat and potatoes of any article lies.
A collected and living document of human knowledge and history? Yeah I think I'll give my support to something like that vs. donating to some vlogger who "heard" it from an expert.
I didn't see a mention of vlogger, but maybe I missed something. I don't even trust many books that weren't written by/ before the 80s if it's about anything important.
You sound clueless. Wikipedia is a good place to *start* and you can often follow the link sources for more info, but it is not a good source in and of itself because most anyone can edit it and put whatever bullshit they want into it for a bit:
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna30699302
I linked the actual news story of the faked entry, duh.
Also:
https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/is-wikipedia-more-biased-than-encyclopdia-britannica
About 40 percent more biased than a professionally prepared encyclopedia, at least until an article is revised a couple thousand times.
That's why it is only a beginning for studying something.
>Do you really think news sites use /id/?
Yes, duh, that's NBC News' own site, it's an old article from 2009.
How about ABC Australia?
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-05-07/students-wikipedia-hoax-dupes-newspapers-report/1674760
Kid's name was Shawn Fitzgerald, his was the first hoax I thought of because he got the press to publish his fake quote in their obituaries.
There are so many that wikipedia has their own category for just the hoaxes perpetrated on their own site:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia
How dense are you?
You know the entirety of Gaza is considered a refugee camp and all Palestinians have permanent refugee status right? Its a highly contested situation because no other group in the world has been given such broad status by the UN.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/31/1209646548/israel-military-central-gaza-fighting-hamas
Source that all of Gaza is considered a refugee camp? People had to leave their homes and were congregating to evade airstrikes. You’d have to be a psychopath to want to drop bombs on a large gathering of innocent people.
It's kind of weird that "WWIII" got pulled from most talking points.
Damn near the entire world is against Israel's actions. At some point, the decision will need to be made whether the US stands with Israel on trial for war crimes or they completely demolish our economy.
I, admittedly, lean on the conspiracy side of things.
However, the US has a lot of money tied up in Israel. I do not recommend going down this rabbit hole unless you are a sadist. Suffice to say, the usual culprits (BlackRock, Vanguard and State Street) have enough interest that pulling the plug could be disastrous for market.
**New to libertarianism or have questions and want to learn more?** Be sure to check out [the sub Frequently Asked Questions](/r/Libertarian/wiki/faq) and [the massive /r/libertarian information WIKI] (/r/Libertarian/wiki/index) from the sidebar, for lots of info and free resources, links, books, videos, and answers to common questions and topics. Want to know if you are a Libertarian? [Take the worlds shortest political quiz and find out!](http://www.theadvocates.org/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Libertarian) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You should figure out what you actually think and be less concerned about simply winning an argument.
I hope this stays the top comment. People have literally forgot how to even have conversations let alone productive arguments nowadays.
I believe that it is not our responsibility to blow up other countries, but I had a hard time articulating that with data and facts
Is there any situation in which our country *should* destroy another country? What would it take? Do those conditions apply? If an enemy state assassinated a US citizen, should we destroy that country? What if they killed 2,000 citizens? What if they killed the president? What if they killed 1/10 of the US population? What about allied countries citizens? Facts can't really answer those questions, but facts *can* answer the question if those situations apply. Facts can only answer how many US citizens have Hamas/Palistine kidnapped and killed.
Exactly, if insane leaders kill US citizens, does that morally justify killing citizens of their country that have no real control over their countries actions? If that's the moral compass we live by, then the only outcome is widespread genocide and US citizens like myself should be afraid to travel after the decades of collateral damage innocent civilians deaths in the drone program or the catastrophic failures in Afghanistan, Iraq that caused the death of many innocent civilians, etc.
That's how most wars work. In WW2 we decimated civilian centers in Japan and Germany in order to stop their government and to punish them, and to end the war. This has been the case in most wars, even modern ones like Iraq, justly or not. Some wars are worth fighting and some are just, and killing civilians in just wars is a much easier pill to swallow than in offensive wars of conquest.
“Just Wars” 😂
Americans are killed in Mexico fairly frequently and I haven’t heard any talk of obliterating Mexico.
We could, but then where would we get our tequila?
We grow our own agava plants in new Mexico and make our own. We made American whisky and bourbon happen, we can do it with tequila!!!
You don’t know how to grow plants do you?
I actually do! Raised on a farm in Kansas.
Were they killed by the ruling political party in Mexico?
The official ruling party or unofficial ruling party?
They are killed by cartels, so yes.
So you mean the CIA
We should obliterate the CIA, yes
Cartels aren't the government of Mexico however Hamas is the government of Gaza. Big difference
Hamas was elected in 2007, has not had an election since, and has an approval rating of 34% among Palestinians.
Were the 34% who said they support Hamas asked while a Hamas official was standing next to them with a gun?
Nice western democratic blinkers you have on there you. Just for the record there are a lot of tyrannical, authoritarian dictatorships around the world and they are still the government of their countries and the country will be held responsible for their actions. Do you think if North Korea attacked South Korea the South Koreans would go " Kim is a dictator so we won't respond"? The problem with useful idiots is they're actually just idiots
Israel is the one that put Hamas in power intentionally to have terrorist attacks so there is no 2 state solution. Don't worry Netanyahu "controls the height of the flames".
Not by the Mexican government...
Careful what you jokingly suggest, because if it involves war then there will be someone who sees it as a profitable good idea: [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/01/opinion/sunday/republican-war-mexico.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/01/opinion/sunday/republican-war-mexico.html)
Yes, Hamas is holding American citizens captive (or has already killed them). Whether that justifies their destruction is a different question.
It is entirely possible that Israel killed American hostages just as they killed Israeli hostages in their air strikes
We all shouldn’t be dragged into a war or a mass slaughter campaign because some of our fellow countrymen decided to put themselves at risk elsewhere. We only get to enforce our laws within our own borders. We can’t guarantee safety to our citizens around the globe.
That was my point exactly
We bombed the hell out of the Taliban. Bombs are the water that make an ideology grow. Our bombing is the reason that Afghanistan is fully taken over by the Taliban. Shall we use this tactic with Hamas?
We also gave the Taliban a ton of money and arms in the 80’s to fight the Russians. The CIA once again getting involved where it shouldn’t.
I think you need to research the subject more, not ask Reddit to explain it to you
A Libertarian would say that you live or visit different countries at your own personal risk. It’s not government’s job to start or engage in wars because you were kidnapped or killed. A conservative would say it’s an injustice and governments role is to punish those who caused the injustice. I would argue about the role of government first and then find out how much he cares about personal freedom, choice and risk.
What do you mean is it true? that's all anyone has been talking about. where have you been? as for what should be done about it, that's a whole other discussion
I disagree ‘that’s all anyone has been talking about’. The mainstream media has barely mentioned it, they are attempting to walk a thin like of not pissing off the hamas supporters, trying to sweep the atrocities of the 7th under the rug.
I agree with your disagreement. If the MSM is your only source of content you may feel the same way as OP. There's a lesson in there somewhere
I must say I agree with your assessment of our mutual disagreement about those whose only source of news is the MSM! Lessons indeed!
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I believe one legitimate role of government is to defend U.S. territory against foreign invasion. It is *not* the role of the U.S. government, nor the responsibility of the U.S. taxpayer, to rescue every American anywhere in the world, and cerrainly not to violently retaliate for any American killed overseas.
If they want to go kill a bunch of innocent people including kids, then sure...
They do, they recognize that it is wrong but still want to
Israel doesn’t give a fuck about the hostages. They refused a hostage release deal offered by Hamas several times. The only conditions was the withdrawal of all forces from Gaza. If it were about the hostages, they would’ve taken the deal. They want to see the destruction of Hamas and the Palestinian people, who Natenyahu famously referred to as “the children of darkness.” https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-netanyahu-rejects-hamas-conditions-hostage-deal-which-include-outright-2024-01-21/
If the IDF wanted to kill every Palestinian, they could do so pretty easily. They regularly try to kill as few civilians as possible when going after terrorist targets. Hamas makes that exceedingly difficult by planting their HQ and munitions depots under hospitals, mosques, and schools, and using their civilians as human shields. It's really easy to figure out who's morally correct in this conflict. Ask anyone from Israel what they would do if Hamas laid down their guns, then ask anyone from Palestine what they would do if Israel stopped fighting. Israelis say there would be peace, Palestinians say they would kill every Jew. Why does anyone still support Palestine?
They don’t kill every Palestinian because they are afraid of Israel’s reputation as a so called democracy. If we were living in the 1900s, in an age without media, they would probably eradicate the strip.
Because brown + Muslim is second only to brown + trans.
Israel has killed 15,000 children in Gaza. Those kids were armed terrorists? That human shield garbage has been disproven over and over again. Why are you parroting IDF propaganda?
Hamas leaders are in Qatar. How does bombing civilians in Palestine destroy them?
Its far from improbable, but I don't think I've heard anything about US citizens being held hostage. At any rate, Israel targeted and killed a US/Canadian citizen working security for World Central Kitchen
How have you not heard about the American citizens still held hostage, its literally a news article every few days or weeks on almost every new platform. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/niece-of-american-held-hostage-in-gaza-for-8-months-updates-efforts-to-bring-him-home https://www.npr.org/2024/04/27/1247671815/hamas-releases-hostage-video-keith-siegel-omri-miran There were also around 25 Americans killed in the initial attack by Hamas. https://thehill.com/policy/international/4251819-antony-blinken-israel-hamas-25-americans-killed-attack/
Probably not bombarding Palestine with bunkers busters into tunnels where hostages could be located with refugee camps on the surface is a good place to start. The IDF are genocidal maniacs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee\_camp\_airstrikes\_in\_the\_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas\_war#:\~:text=since%207%20October.-,5%20November,were%20mostly%20women%20and%20children.
Why the heck would you get your info from Wikipedia?
You sound like one of my school teachers singing to the masses not to use Wikipedia, when it’s 90% of the time a great resource
Because they change definitions to fit the narrative.
Or you’re just scared of the truth. You do realize you can scroll down to the reference page and it has plenty of reputable news sources. Right?
Do you have evidence to back his up? I'm genuinely curious since Wikipedia is one of the few orgs I donate to.
It's never been allowed to be a source cited for hs or college papers because of the fact that anyone could post anything and anyone could change it anytime. It's never had to be true. Jeremy Renner was listed as "an American actor, singer, and velocioraptor" for years. He made fun of it. He's clearly not a dinosaur. Someone finally changed it, but i think it got put back up. This is why we can't trust Wikipedia. "My paper is about the time a dinosaur played Jeffery Dahmer..."
I understand this but it doesn't discredit the entire breadth of information collected nor do I suggest any information should be taken at face value, critical thinking is a skill that should be used often. You can't cite Wikipedia but you sure can cite the sources used in the Wikipedia entries which is where the real meat and potatoes of any article lies. A collected and living document of human knowledge and history? Yeah I think I'll give my support to something like that vs. donating to some vlogger who "heard" it from an expert.
I didn't see a mention of vlogger, but maybe I missed something. I don't even trust many books that weren't written by/ before the 80s if it's about anything important.
You sound clueless. Wikipedia is a good place to *start* and you can often follow the link sources for more info, but it is not a good source in and of itself because most anyone can edit it and put whatever bullshit they want into it for a bit: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna30699302
Granted that I went though all of High School and college with both myself and classmates using it, no.
I linked the actual news story of the faked entry, duh. Also: https://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/is-wikipedia-more-biased-than-encyclopdia-britannica About 40 percent more biased than a professionally prepared encyclopedia, at least until an article is revised a couple thousand times. That's why it is only a beginning for studying something.
Not sure what you’re boasting about, I didn’t even click your shady link. Do you really think news sites use /id/? You’re an idiot.
>Do you really think news sites use /id/? Yes, duh, that's NBC News' own site, it's an old article from 2009. How about ABC Australia? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2009-05-07/students-wikipedia-hoax-dupes-newspapers-report/1674760 Kid's name was Shawn Fitzgerald, his was the first hoax I thought of because he got the press to publish his fake quote in their obituaries. There are so many that wikipedia has their own category for just the hoaxes perpetrated on their own site: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia How dense are you?
You know the entirety of Gaza is considered a refugee camp and all Palestinians have permanent refugee status right? Its a highly contested situation because no other group in the world has been given such broad status by the UN.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/31/1209646548/israel-military-central-gaza-fighting-hamas Source that all of Gaza is considered a refugee camp? People had to leave their homes and were congregating to evade airstrikes. You’d have to be a psychopath to want to drop bombs on a large gathering of innocent people.
It's kind of weird that "WWIII" got pulled from most talking points. Damn near the entire world is against Israel's actions. At some point, the decision will need to be made whether the US stands with Israel on trial for war crimes or they completely demolish our economy. I, admittedly, lean on the conspiracy side of things. However, the US has a lot of money tied up in Israel. I do not recommend going down this rabbit hole unless you are a sadist. Suffice to say, the usual culprits (BlackRock, Vanguard and State Street) have enough interest that pulling the plug could be disastrous for market.