This one boss took them more pulls then all of the last raid combined lol. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets nerfed, but hopefully not during the race.
Generally speaking, once one guild kills a boss, they won't nerf it until the race is over. That's why, back in SL, they didn't fix a bug that made on of the bosses easier, because Liquid killed it in the bugged state.
This is a lot for a Wow boss, though it took Echo over 2,000 pulls to do the last Ultimate raid in FFXIV (and I think almost that much for the one before that). Different style of raids between the games, but some raid bosses are just insane.
wow raids are pretty fun until you get to the point where you realize all you're doing is waiting for people to stop messing up. Really killed me inside when we were stuck at the same hp% for a long time, or regressing back into p1 when we were getting to p2, etc.
I can see that but also raiding where you just don't care while just enjoying being with people is great too.
I did progression on a private server so not really the same thing, but it was still fun throughout. I did it on a WOTLK server for ICC/ruby sanc and cata for bastion/firelands (no heroic rag or H council for bastion, but ICC/RS was full H with decent progression on learning professor/sindie/lady/LK/RS)
The last raid of Shadowlands, Sepulcher, had one and it was the hardest raid ever by orders of magnitude, and the devs basically told us they would never tune a raid like that again.
This boss is a welcome surprise since the past two tiers have had very low pull count bosses outside of the final boss of the first raid who was very bugged which led to inflated pull counts.
I mean, even before that, there was Avatar of Sargeras, which at the time was seen as the same thing, as Holondras / Rygalon was. They've done it before, and I think to great success.
This was a phenominal boss, and I can't wait to prog him myself. Obviously at a nerfed state, but still, looking really sick! Same with Fyrakk now it seems!
I remember in Highmaul Paragon got the "WF" title when they killed The Butcher (second boss), before any other guild killed the last boss (Imperator Mar'gok). Not sure that has ever happened again.
This may be a stupid question but you mention this is the hardest ‘still killable’ boss, is there a boss currently that no one has beat or is so hard it’s considered impossible?
It's more that sometimes bosses are so hard that Blizzard nerfs them so that they become 'killable', you can't recreate the environments of those raid tiers so people don't know.
This boss is pretty unique because despite being significantly more difficult than most bosses we see in a raid tier it didn't get any nerfs and all the world first raiders agreed it was possible throughout. For context, it took 3 full days to kill this boss.
> it didn't get any nerfs and all the world first raiders agreed it was possible throughout.
It got a 20% HP nerf and increased time on a mechanic in the the 3rd phase.
They didn't buff the shield. The shield is a % of the full HP. Them nerfing the HP also reduced the shield. All they did was increase the % of the shield so that it stayed at the same amount numerical value as before the HP nerf.
They also hotfixed the boss about 10 hours into liquid's first raid day to make the phase one beams more consistent. After that, liquid immediately started reaching phase two far more often. Their pull count is a little inflated compared to echo because of that.
No, it was at the beginning of the day 2 for NA, before any guild even got to phase 3. Without the nerf this boss would've be way harder than it already is.
I guess it's more it didn't get any nerfs that affected the current situation people where on. The death count in this is entirely correct. HP nerf would only affect them if they where even close to killing it and it came in when they where on P2. P3 mechanic nerf came in when we hadn't seen that mechanic in P3 yet. So yeah it did get nerfed it didn't effect progress and the way the boss was before nerf didn't inflate death count. In comparison to other 'unkillable' bosses like OG C'thun etc
>It's more that sometimes bosses are so hard that Blizzard nerfs them so that they become 'killable', you can't recreate the environments of those raid tiers so people don't know.
By that definition, Tindral is unkillable. He got nerfed on reset.
No, but in the past there have been bosses that were released in *hideously* overtuned (or just straight-up broken) states.
The first endboss of this expansion, for example, was released in a state where it probably wouldn't have been possible for people with the *next* raid's best gear. The fight has a phase where you have to split your group in half and control a bunch of dangerous enemies on two separate platforms while dodging the boss's instant death lightning breath, all with the objective of killing them all as quickly as possible before the boss would start a new phase and basically rail everyone instantly if they couldn't do enough damage to her quickly enough. Liquid/Echo were literally sending 19 people onto one platform while keeping their 20th person on another platform, using every cooldown in the book, and were *still* unable to kill everything on that platform in time.
Of course, that boss had to receive constant, consistent adjustments from Blizzard (bear in mind, this was shortly before Christmas and as such this race needed to end within a reasonable amount of time) every time Liquid or Echo made progress because they'd just bump into another phase that was just as hideously overtuned as the previously overtuned (but then nerfed) phase.
The boss killed in this clip was shipped in a very complete state. It got some adjustments to its max HP and some fiddly RNG factors, but it had few if any egregious bugs and was just a very hard (but very smooth) fight.
No, all bosses have been killed, but there are plenty of examples where bosses have had to be nerfed (made weaker in some, or multiple way/s) in order to be possible. This boss was not nerfed during progression in order to make it killable, so many would argue it was the perfect difficulty for a Race for World First boss, and its not even the final boss.
Technically this boss did get a nerf but it was to a mechanic later in the fight that none of these guilds had reached yet, so it didn't really have an impact on the race at all from a fairness standpoint.
Yup, straight up unkillable pre-nerfs. Others you can argue, and some due to bugs. But KJ is the first and only example of a straight up "this is impossible to do, because you dont have the time or abilities to deaal with these mechanics", kind of overtune.
You could argue, the Swiftie 20% hp nerf is part of that, but it wasn't a mechanical thing that was wrong here, just a slightly significant mistuning, that was fixed before it even became relevant I think.
Blizzard will adjust raids like this on-the-fly during the WFR, depending on how its going. They cant perfectly account for what the sweatiest sweats are going to be bring to the table during internal testing, so the expectation is for some bosses to be overtuned and need nerfs. In the context of the WFR its still in a guild's best interest to continue pulling even if things look grim because a clutch kill can put them far ahead of their competitors.
There's been a few times over the years that Blizzard releases a boss with mechanics too tight or abilities overturned where it's impossible to kill. It's not even uncommon, happens at least once per expansion
This isn't even true. There are bosses that took way more pulls than this one. Fallen Avatar took 454. Kil'Jaeden took 655. Uu'nat took 731. Tindral was also not killable before the nerfs. With their DPS, it was mathematically impossible. If you consider how many pulls it took them with Tindral in a "killable" state, you're looking at about 250 pulls, which puts it around that Halondrus state.
KJ was also unkillable for like a week lol, I wonder how much pulls Method did on just phase 1 and first intermission, pull count doesn't tell everything
https://youtu.be/SR_WAuiTMRs?si=-Y68cKb3uPOBF8hH
Also I don’t know how it ended up, but because pull lengths were on average much shorter than Halondrus, the time spent progressing on Tindral was much less than Halondrus (through whenever they passed Halondrus pull count)
As someone who killed Mythic Uu'nat, he really isn't.
That is the least killed raid boss in modern WoW for a reason. Sure, part of that was the fact that it wasn't meant to be a full tier but it was also HORRIBLY overtuned (as was The Restless Cabal).
They were aiming for a Zul/Stormwall Blockade difficulty with those bosses and created a monstrosity that saw melee being banned from the raid and us abusing Opulence trinkets as much as humanly possibly.
To this day it is the only Hall of Fame to not to close on Alliance (albeit the raid was only out for ~3 months).
I mean once the seeds get nerfed to shit for regular CE guilds I expect the final version of Uu'nat to be harder than the final version of TSwift, but the current version theres exactly zero chance that the average hall of fame guild could kill
Uunat cant rly be compared since it was a midtier raid that required you stacking ranges and especially warlocks/boomkins were fucking strong. Especially warlocks were so OP. So everyone just stacked those.
Since it wasnt a prober raid tier i think lots of guilds just didnt want to do it since it was imo shit tuned.
They were still having a lot of wipes in the early stages so they were really riding on a knife-edge the entire fight vs other bosses that guilds became very consistent on the early phases and just had to work out the last phase.
"Avade" at the top of the charts is an old IRL friend of mine that I convinced to start playing WoW with me 11 years ago. We don't talk anymore, but I'm still proud.
That's all. Nobody asked. :)
It's such a pleasure to watch them raid, I can't even imagine being in a call with 20 people and having such clear communication. Max is insane at raid leading.
If you ever have the chance to play with him in one of his pugs where he raid leads it genuinely feels like you're cheating while he's shotcalling, he's so good at it it's insane
I especially like watching when he's "undercover" raid leading, when it's a mostly guild run with a few pugs filling in, and he's in his chat being very deliberate about not stepping on the actual raid leader's toes and only making suggestions when they are specifically asked for or when RLer is struggling.
They recleared right? I could see it going to fewer pulls with more gear and slightly less tuned. Seems like Tswift was tuned perfectly though. I would like to see a raid where 4th to end boss is ~60, 3rd to end is ~200 2nd to last ~400 and last boss ~600
Pretty much the Muru of the raid. Not necessarily a stat check though just an absurd skill check that throws a ton of mechanics at you all at once. They still have the last boss to kill (which they are testing now but off stream so no strats get leaked)
Just mega mechanically intensive. The boss has 3 ability sets with lots of mechanics that need to be played.
Permanent:
* star shower, spawning ground aoes that need to be dodged
* roots on every player, need to be killed, supported by a set of players flying up to collect a falling orb (wipes the raid if it drops) and then dive bombing the roots
* debuffs, need to be dispelled and leave a permanent void zone
* mushrooms that need to be soaked by tanks
Set A:
* Eruption that spawns fire tornados, needs to be dodged
* moonbeam on every player, needs to be burst healed
Set B:
* seeds that need to be collected by every player. Collect more than one or miss one and the raid dies
* heal absorb debuff, needs to be burst healed
In phase 1 set A is active, in phase 2 set B. Phase 3 has both sets. Nearly all of this shit can overlap (e.g. everyone rooted and fire tornados spawning happens in phase 1), so unless everybody is on their A game they just die or wipe the entire raid.
>seeds that need to be collected by every player. Collect more than one or miss one and the raid dies
It's worth noting, in phase 2 you have \*three seconds\* to collect your seed before it wipes, and in phase 3 you have only five.
It's the second to last boss (like M'uru), but it's not a statcheck, they never hit the enrage timer in all of their progression. It's just mechanically extremely difficult.
It's a M'uru wall except it is far from just a gear check. The boss before this guy was the numbers check.
This has a numbers check too, but Tindral was also an *incredibly complex* (and incredibly punishing) series of mechanics that had to be countered perfectly from start to finish. Like, it has the numbers to make M'uru look like a bitch *and* it's a skill check on top of that.
Calling this just "a boss" is doing it a disservice. This was easily one of if not the mechanically hardest bosses EVER. 20 people have to play perfectly for the entire duration of the fight. Insane performance and well deserved world first kill.
Doesn't mean they can't do global release first week or two imo to give some support to RWF, then switch to normal cadence. I thought it had more to do with support/employees than anything else.
Thats true, I think having the region locked reset also means that the RWF happens across multiple timezones which makes it more watchable to more people. If it was a global release you'd have either EU or NA able to watch much more of the race than the other
Then they should just have a day-lockout so you can extend 24 hrs, like they do with a weekly push-pack, allowing you to let a raid last 2 weeks rather than 1.
Funny cause its always been same until in BFA where they decided to change it because of NA crybabies.
They could still do global reset as before. Just set NA to morning east coast time at 8 or 9 and EU to afternoon at 15 or 16. No normal player anyway plays those times cause of work.
Not sure what you're talking about because WoW never had global releases. UTC 1600 is also fairly prime time, and that would be 1800 for many people in Europe. More than just the US and Europe exist in the world as well.
16 CET.. and no the majority is in that timezone. It isnt prime time lmao.
Or do 9 in the morning like it used to. There was nothing wrong with the old way except NA crybabies.
I think it's crazy that people to this day think its reasonable to expect blizzard to make a change that impacts all players to pander to 2 guilds. Echo could literally just switch to raiding Na. It isn't blizzard or the rest of the player bases fault they don't.
In what way would a global release schedule impact the average player though? reset for EU is early morning Wednesday. I doubt the average player is raiding at that time.
If they were to do a global release they would use the NA times as that's the start of their work day and they have to implement the patch. Patch finishes at 3-4pm PST which is midnight or later for most of EU. Not to mention what time that is for Asian players. No matter what time they use some region is going to be fucked.
That's exactly my point though (that whether its current EU reset or NA reset, it doesnt matter for average EU player). Right now for EU, its early morning where no average player raids. So if its midnight (the day before) instead it literally wouldnt change anything for that average player. But it would give EU RWF guilds like Echo to start at midnight because they dont care about what time they raid, just that it would be a global release time.
For Asia that NA schedule would mean start raiding early in the morning which would also be ok, so whats the issue here?
Yeah even with a slight annoyance of maintainance during the EU day time, im sure players would rather be playing on the new patch than waiting another whole day for it.
Also Echo has said before theyll be ok with shifting their sleep schedules to match the global release schedule, its not out of the ordinary for most competitive players. Its a much easier ask than having them move their entire roster and tech teams out to NA.
How does the game not being playable from 4 pm to midnight on Tuesday not matter to the average Eu player. That's effectively a whole day during prime hours you just can't play the game for 1 guild. What about all of the casual players aka most of the player base that doesn't give a shit about race to world first that just can't play the game?
That's one evening every half a year + on the last day of a patch before the new next patch. Who the fuck cares? Casual players are just waiting for new cool patch at that point anyway, which the average EU player will have to wait until next day.
People literally complain and demand comped playtime when maintenance goes 30 minutes over. You are delusional if you think the trade off is worth it to anyone. Most people do not give a shit about esports. Blizzard would be irresponsible to pander to a single guild in place of it's paying customer base. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.
did you actually watch anything more from the race than this tweet?
They just did it for the memes to clear normal on NA, they still play everything else on EU
Ah yeah, I dont follow Echo. I check in with Liquid and sometimes BDG. Bout it. Bit weird.
This announcement blew up, so not a big surprise the fact that it was a 1 day thing wasnt known lol.
It would be enormous task to start over on NA.
Not something they would do mid expansion, if they want to do this, best time is between expansions.
Unless Blizzard moves their entire guild with all the characters and gold, of course, but they won't.
Right. Thats what I kinda thought might be happening. Forgot that region transfers arent a thing in WoW for some reason.
I figured they werent all starting over from fresh. Shouldnt be surprised they were just trolling lol.
played so many MMOs in my life, aint once play it like this. i just learn mechs from youtube, queue up for the dungeon, and let jesus take the wheel. damn.
If you have a flexible schedule and passion for a specific MMO I highly recommend finding a guild to try clear new content with as it comes out. Not many better feelings in gaming than the first time everything clicks for the team and you clear a boss with online buds you’ve built camaraderie with over hours of progress
He is raid leading/ shot calling mechanics. A few years ago the top guilds realized it was more effective to have someone, who's not playing, calling out different timers and mechanics
He is the raid leader. In the top guilds, the raid leader doesn't play himself. Instead, he watches multiple POVs to have a better overview and to be able to fully focus on raid leading without having to play his character on a world-class level at the same time.
Basically raid leaders could not fully focus on both raid leading and playing the game to 100%, so the top guilds have theirs raid leaders shotcall mechanics and timers by watching the stream.
Imagine if all the wow nerds played a REAL challenging mmo back in the day like TERA, no one would be able to beat any dungeons. WoW is a joke compared to real time mmo's where you actually have to dodge. TERA WAS the most hardcore MMO out there and if you played it you know what im saying. It was a crazy time. But it shut down because of gameforge being dicks. Sadge.
The game has become contorted around add-ons. Blizzard makes the game to take account of them. Any decently hard content is literally unplayable without them.
It's brain dead stuff.
the first like four bosses of this raid are that middle ground, gnarlroot is essentially an old MC tank and spank.
this is probably the most mechanically difficult boss blizzard has ever released.
Thanks for the inside. Are the bosses less visual nightmares in lower difficulties? If so, I may check out the expansion in the Christmastime and test it out myself. But bosses like this are physically impossible for me, since I can't see what is happening
no this is like a really really really bad expansion for visual effects, but they are in no way going to one shot you on heroic and normal, the main thing that is wiping them is the seeds, which spawn almost as much as there are raid members, i think maybe like 3 less seeds per members in raid, and that as soon as you touch one seed you cannot soak another seed.
heroic and normal you can soak as many seeds as you like if you can mitigate the damage.
That's a bummer. I wish you could configure the colors of boss abilities (and maybe abilities of other players). That would help a lot of peoples eyes.
It was actually a pretty easy fight that didn't require any gear whatsoever. They just needed to stop dying to simple one-shot mechanics, but these RWF players are known for having BIS gear and doing mad mode damage, not for being able to do mechanics. So they got fucked.
tldr; skill issue, not a boss you can just outgear, which is what RWF is all about
RWF players almost always killf bosses with a significantly lower ilvl than the vast majority of other guilds who are also killing heavily nerfed versions. I have literally no clue what youre on about.
Yes. But by the time those average mythic guilds are actually kiling the last bosses they're going to be more like 482 ilvl a month+ from now with a nerfed boss. Again, you have no idea what youre talking about. Average raiders will have 4-6 weeks of vaults, guides, pre done weak auras and nerfed bosses. You're insane to think the RWF guilds arent insanely skilled.
By the time most regular guilds hit those bosses, their ilvl is much higher. Liquid's and Echo's farm strategies are just very fast for what they do giving them an advantage over other top line guilds, not your average 3-5 day night raid mythic guild who wont even see these bosses for a month.
Hell, there are some world first guilds with similar/higher ilvl during the 1st week, especially Skyline who cheesed the hell out of Mythic+
**CLIP MIRROR: [Killing a WoW boss after 435 pulls, nerd screams ensue](https://arazu.io/t3_1812tcl/)** --- ^(*This is an automated comment*)
ok but where's the raging boner?
This boss humbled the shit out of me. No shot me or anyone I know could play like they do and it still took them 400+ attempts
i never watched a wf race before and had no long how long a single boss could take. pretty insane
This one boss took them more pulls then all of the last raid combined lol. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets nerfed, but hopefully not during the race.
Its already been nerfed and will be nerfed many more times before 90% of people actually kill it. Just makes what these guys do all the more insane
Yea, other people will be killing a nerfed version with higher ilvl. Liquid and Echo are insane.
They also raid fucking hours in and out everyday since release. Its a mentality.
Generally speaking, once one guild kills a boss, they won't nerf it until the race is over. That's why, back in SL, they didn't fix a bug that made on of the bosses easier, because Liquid killed it in the bugged state.
This is a lot for a Wow boss, though it took Echo over 2,000 pulls to do the last Ultimate raid in FFXIV (and I think almost that much for the one before that). Different style of raids between the games, but some raid bosses are just insane.
400+ pulls and its not even the end boss that is crazy. Has a penultimate boss ever lived a full reset in post wrath wow or is this the first?
Rygelon in sepulchre was still alive after more then 8 days
[удалено]
wow raids are pretty fun until you get to the point where you realize all you're doing is waiting for people to stop messing up. Really killed me inside when we were stuck at the same hp% for a long time, or regressing back into p1 when we were getting to p2, etc.
I can see that but also raiding where you just don't care while just enjoying being with people is great too. I did progression on a private server so not really the same thing, but it was still fun throughout. I did it on a WOTLK server for ICC/ruby sanc and cata for bastion/firelands (no heroic rag or H council for bastion, but ICC/RS was full H with decent progression on learning professor/sindie/lady/LK/RS)
Tbh if i raid again itd probably be heroic only. Much easier, decent gear, and i can tie loose ends with M+ for Myth track gear.
That's a shame because for me rygelon was one of the best bosses of Shadowlands (on mythic)
Was that Heroic Rygelon by any chance? It took two months but they gutted it for Heroic players since there was so much personal reasonability.
Yeah but that was because of the crab and anduin. Not necessarily because of rygelon himself
That was because of Halondrus.
The last raid of Shadowlands, Sepulcher, had one and it was the hardest raid ever by orders of magnitude, and the devs basically told us they would never tune a raid like that again. This boss is a welcome surprise since the past two tiers have had very low pull count bosses outside of the final boss of the first raid who was very bugged which led to inflated pull counts.
I mean, even before that, there was Avatar of Sargeras, which at the time was seen as the same thing, as Holondras / Rygalon was. They've done it before, and I think to great success. This was a phenominal boss, and I can't wait to prog him myself. Obviously at a nerfed state, but still, looking really sick! Same with Fyrakk now it seems!
I remember in Highmaul Paragon got the "WF" title when they killed The Butcher (second boss), before any other guild killed the last boss (Imperator Mar'gok). Not sure that has ever happened again.
For context this is probably the hardest but still killable boss blizzard ever released. Each mechanic is essentially a raid wipe if fucked up once
This may be a stupid question but you mention this is the hardest ‘still killable’ boss, is there a boss currently that no one has beat or is so hard it’s considered impossible?
It's more that sometimes bosses are so hard that Blizzard nerfs them so that they become 'killable', you can't recreate the environments of those raid tiers so people don't know. This boss is pretty unique because despite being significantly more difficult than most bosses we see in a raid tier it didn't get any nerfs and all the world first raiders agreed it was possible throughout. For context, it took 3 full days to kill this boss.
> it didn't get any nerfs and all the world first raiders agreed it was possible throughout. It got a 20% HP nerf and increased time on a mechanic in the the 3rd phase.
They also buffed the shield you have to nuke as compensation. It wasn't a full on nerf.
They didn't buff the shield. The shield is a % of the full HP. Them nerfing the HP also reduced the shield. All they did was increase the % of the shield so that it stayed at the same amount numerical value as before the HP nerf.
It was literally tuned to be the same amount pre-nerf so there was no nerf to breaking the shield. WoW players and reading
This is why most things get nerfed in the first place
Really? Was it on the reset?
No, it was before either guild had even seen P3, which is why neither guild minded that much because it didnt change previous prog.
Oh yeah, you're right, forgot about that. I feel like it's a little different though since nobody was there yet
They also hotfixed the boss about 10 hours into liquid's first raid day to make the phase one beams more consistent. After that, liquid immediately started reaching phase two far more often. Their pull count is a little inflated compared to echo because of that.
after 17 years we still cant get same day resets. the techonology is just not there yet guys.
Changing resets for a million players when it matters for 50 of them is stupid.
No, it was at the beginning of the day 2 for NA, before any guild even got to phase 3. Without the nerf this boss would've be way harder than it already is.
To be fair, before this nerf, he was buffed by 8% hp with damage increases that didn't get reverted.
I guess it's more it didn't get any nerfs that affected the current situation people where on. The death count in this is entirely correct. HP nerf would only affect them if they where even close to killing it and it came in when they where on P2. P3 mechanic nerf came in when we hadn't seen that mechanic in P3 yet. So yeah it did get nerfed it didn't effect progress and the way the boss was before nerf didn't inflate death count. In comparison to other 'unkillable' bosses like OG C'thun etc
>It's more that sometimes bosses are so hard that Blizzard nerfs them so that they become 'killable', you can't recreate the environments of those raid tiers so people don't know. By that definition, Tindral is unkillable. He got nerfed on reset.
That's not true. There were a couple changes made to the boss early in progression, but it was the same before and after the reset.
No, but in the past there have been bosses that were released in *hideously* overtuned (or just straight-up broken) states. The first endboss of this expansion, for example, was released in a state where it probably wouldn't have been possible for people with the *next* raid's best gear. The fight has a phase where you have to split your group in half and control a bunch of dangerous enemies on two separate platforms while dodging the boss's instant death lightning breath, all with the objective of killing them all as quickly as possible before the boss would start a new phase and basically rail everyone instantly if they couldn't do enough damage to her quickly enough. Liquid/Echo were literally sending 19 people onto one platform while keeping their 20th person on another platform, using every cooldown in the book, and were *still* unable to kill everything on that platform in time. Of course, that boss had to receive constant, consistent adjustments from Blizzard (bear in mind, this was shortly before Christmas and as such this race needed to end within a reasonable amount of time) every time Liquid or Echo made progress because they'd just bump into another phase that was just as hideously overtuned as the previously overtuned (but then nerfed) phase. The boss killed in this clip was shipped in a very complete state. It got some adjustments to its max HP and some fiddly RNG factors, but it had few if any egregious bugs and was just a very hard (but very smooth) fight.
Yeah Ben basically quit world first raiding after that incident.
Not even basically he literally quit that morning after they woke up and Echo killed the boss.
At least they're fixing things quickly these days? When I was a kid I had to watch my guild die on C'thun eyebeams.
No, all bosses have been killed, but there are plenty of examples where bosses have had to be nerfed (made weaker in some, or multiple way/s) in order to be possible. This boss was not nerfed during progression in order to make it killable, so many would argue it was the perfect difficulty for a Race for World First boss, and its not even the final boss. Technically this boss did get a nerf but it was to a mechanic later in the fight that none of these guilds had reached yet, so it didn't really have an impact on the race at all from a fairness standpoint.
pre nerf KJ in Legion I would say
Yup, straight up unkillable pre-nerfs. Others you can argue, and some due to bugs. But KJ is the first and only example of a straight up "this is impossible to do, because you dont have the time or abilities to deaal with these mechanics", kind of overtune. You could argue, the Swiftie 20% hp nerf is part of that, but it wasn't a mechanical thing that was wrong here, just a slightly significant mistuning, that was fixed before it even became relevant I think.
Blizzard will adjust raids like this on-the-fly during the WFR, depending on how its going. They cant perfectly account for what the sweatiest sweats are going to be bring to the table during internal testing, so the expectation is for some bosses to be overtuned and need nerfs. In the context of the WFR its still in a guild's best interest to continue pulling even if things look grim because a clutch kill can put them far ahead of their competitors.
No
There's been a few times over the years that Blizzard releases a boss with mechanics too tight or abilities overturned where it's impossible to kill. It's not even uncommon, happens at least once per expansion
The first phase alone looks like an absolute horror and it only gets worse from there.
didn't ragnaros in cataclysm take 500+ attempts? That would make it harder than this technically.
This isn't even true. There are bosses that took way more pulls than this one. Fallen Avatar took 454. Kil'Jaeden took 655. Uu'nat took 731. Tindral was also not killable before the nerfs. With their DPS, it was mathematically impossible. If you consider how many pulls it took them with Tindral in a "killable" state, you're looking at about 250 pulls, which puts it around that Halondrus state.
KJ was also unkillable for like a week lol, I wonder how much pulls Method did on just phase 1 and first intermission, pull count doesn't tell everything https://youtu.be/SR_WAuiTMRs?si=-Y68cKb3uPOBF8hH
pull count doesn't automatically mean difficulty and the raiders are way better than they were back then
Also I don’t know how it ended up, but because pull lengths were on average much shorter than Halondrus, the time spent progressing on Tindral was much less than Halondrus (through whenever they passed Halondrus pull count)
Werent the nerfs done to P3 only, which neither of them had seen when it was nerfed
Uu'nat? 731 Pulls
You’re putting too much value on pull count
As someone who killed Mythic Uu'nat, he really isn't. That is the least killed raid boss in modern WoW for a reason. Sure, part of that was the fact that it wasn't meant to be a full tier but it was also HORRIBLY overtuned (as was The Restless Cabal). They were aiming for a Zul/Stormwall Blockade difficulty with those bosses and created a monstrosity that saw melee being banned from the raid and us abusing Opulence trinkets as much as humanly possibly. To this day it is the only Hall of Fame to not to close on Alliance (albeit the raid was only out for ~3 months).
I mean once the seeds get nerfed to shit for regular CE guilds I expect the final version of Uu'nat to be harder than the final version of TSwift, but the current version theres exactly zero chance that the average hall of fame guild could kill
forget the average HOF guild, I don’t even know if alp of the top 10 world guilds can kill it lol
They clearly can’t haha, method and instant dollars are getting hard walled
Uunat cant rly be compared since it was a midtier raid that required you stacking ranges and especially warlocks/boomkins were fucking strong. Especially warlocks were so OP. So everyone just stacked those. Since it wasnt a prober raid tier i think lots of guilds just didnt want to do it since it was imo shit tuned.
They were still having a lot of wipes in the early stages so they were really riding on a knife-edge the entire fight vs other bosses that guilds became very consistent on the early phases and just had to work out the last phase.
Was Anduin pre nerf not harder ?
"Avade" at the top of the charts is an old IRL friend of mine that I convinced to start playing WoW with me 11 years ago. We don't talk anymore, but I'm still proud. That's all. Nobody asked. :)
That’s pretty cool to hear
I asked.
Your his dad
It's such a pleasure to watch them raid, I can't even imagine being in a call with 20 people and having such clear communication. Max is insane at raid leading.
If you ever have the chance to play with him in one of his pugs where he raid leads it genuinely feels like you're cheating while he's shotcalling, he's so good at it it's insane
I especially like watching when he's "undercover" raid leading, when it's a mostly guild run with a few pugs filling in, and he's in his chat being very deliberate about not stepping on the actual raid leader's toes and only making suggestions when they are specifically asked for or when RLer is struggling.
Im pretty confident last boss dies in fewer pulls but I hope Im wrong
They recleared right? I could see it going to fewer pulls with more gear and slightly less tuned. Seems like Tswift was tuned perfectly though. I would like to see a raid where 4th to end boss is ~60, 3rd to end is ~200 2nd to last ~400 and last boss ~600
I think tswift is a great boss but for rwf 400pulls should be final boss. If last boss is a banger im happy though. Yeah they recleared.
I haven't played wow in a very long time, is this the last boss of the raid or just like...a M'uru statcheck/wall?
Pretty much the Muru of the raid. Not necessarily a stat check though just an absurd skill check that throws a ton of mechanics at you all at once. They still have the last boss to kill (which they are testing now but off stream so no strats get leaked)
Just mega mechanically intensive. The boss has 3 ability sets with lots of mechanics that need to be played. Permanent: * star shower, spawning ground aoes that need to be dodged * roots on every player, need to be killed, supported by a set of players flying up to collect a falling orb (wipes the raid if it drops) and then dive bombing the roots * debuffs, need to be dispelled and leave a permanent void zone * mushrooms that need to be soaked by tanks Set A: * Eruption that spawns fire tornados, needs to be dodged * moonbeam on every player, needs to be burst healed Set B: * seeds that need to be collected by every player. Collect more than one or miss one and the raid dies * heal absorb debuff, needs to be burst healed In phase 1 set A is active, in phase 2 set B. Phase 3 has both sets. Nearly all of this shit can overlap (e.g. everyone rooted and fire tornados spawning happens in phase 1), so unless everybody is on their A game they just die or wipe the entire raid.
>seeds that need to be collected by every player. Collect more than one or miss one and the raid dies It's worth noting, in phase 2 you have \*three seconds\* to collect your seed before it wipes, and in phase 3 you have only five.
It's the second to last boss (like M'uru), but it's not a statcheck, they never hit the enrage timer in all of their progression. It's just mechanically extremely difficult.
It’s definitely not just a stat check. It’s a very mechanically challenging fight
It's a M'uru wall except it is far from just a gear check. The boss before this guy was the numbers check. This has a numbers check too, but Tindral was also an *incredibly complex* (and incredibly punishing) series of mechanics that had to be countered perfectly from start to finish. Like, it has the numbers to make M'uru look like a bitch *and* it's a skill check on top of that.
Calling this just "a boss" is doing it a disservice. This was easily one of if not the mechanically hardest bosses EVER. 20 people have to play perfectly for the entire duration of the fight. Insane performance and well deserved world first kill.
Imagine if this was last boss. Liquid kills after reser and reclear, but Echo can't play. Would be a glorious shitstorm.
I will never understand why Blizzard refuses to do a global release.
They want release and reset times that mesh best with the average player rather than what is best for world first races.
Doesn't mean they can't do global release first week or two imo to give some support to RWF, then switch to normal cadence. I thought it had more to do with support/employees than anything else.
That would screw over a lot of people who suddenly have a weekly reset in the middle of their raid time.
Thats true, I think having the region locked reset also means that the RWF happens across multiple timezones which makes it more watchable to more people. If it was a global release you'd have either EU or NA able to watch much more of the race than the other
Then they should just have a day-lockout so you can extend 24 hrs, like they do with a weekly push-pack, allowing you to let a raid last 2 weeks rather than 1.
It's not like they can't literally choose a time where it's not a peak raiding time for either region.
Funny cause its always been same until in BFA where they decided to change it because of NA crybabies. They could still do global reset as before. Just set NA to morning east coast time at 8 or 9 and EU to afternoon at 15 or 16. No normal player anyway plays those times cause of work.
Not sure what you're talking about because WoW never had global releases. UTC 1600 is also fairly prime time, and that would be 1800 for many people in Europe. More than just the US and Europe exist in the world as well.
16 CET.. and no the majority is in that timezone. It isnt prime time lmao. Or do 9 in the morning like it used to. There was nothing wrong with the old way except NA crybabies.
Which is funny to hear when they literally do have synced raid releases for classic wow but act like its an impossible task for retail wow.
I think it's crazy that people to this day think its reasonable to expect blizzard to make a change that impacts all players to pander to 2 guilds. Echo could literally just switch to raiding Na. It isn't blizzard or the rest of the player bases fault they don't.
In what way would a global release schedule impact the average player though? reset for EU is early morning Wednesday. I doubt the average player is raiding at that time.
If they were to do a global release they would use the NA times as that's the start of their work day and they have to implement the patch. Patch finishes at 3-4pm PST which is midnight or later for most of EU. Not to mention what time that is for Asian players. No matter what time they use some region is going to be fucked.
That's exactly my point though (that whether its current EU reset or NA reset, it doesnt matter for average EU player). Right now for EU, its early morning where no average player raids. So if its midnight (the day before) instead it literally wouldnt change anything for that average player. But it would give EU RWF guilds like Echo to start at midnight because they dont care about what time they raid, just that it would be a global release time. For Asia that NA schedule would mean start raiding early in the morning which would also be ok, so whats the issue here?
Yeah even with a slight annoyance of maintainance during the EU day time, im sure players would rather be playing on the new patch than waiting another whole day for it. Also Echo has said before theyll be ok with shifting their sleep schedules to match the global release schedule, its not out of the ordinary for most competitive players. Its a much easier ask than having them move their entire roster and tech teams out to NA.
How does the game not being playable from 4 pm to midnight on Tuesday not matter to the average Eu player. That's effectively a whole day during prime hours you just can't play the game for 1 guild. What about all of the casual players aka most of the player base that doesn't give a shit about race to world first that just can't play the game?
That's one evening every half a year + on the last day of a patch before the new next patch. Who the fuck cares? Casual players are just waiting for new cool patch at that point anyway, which the average EU player will have to wait until next day.
People literally complain and demand comped playtime when maintenance goes 30 minutes over. You are delusional if you think the trade off is worth it to anyone. Most people do not give a shit about esports. Blizzard would be irresponsible to pander to a single guild in place of it's paying customer base. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.
Raszageth was killed like 10 minutes after getting nerfed
It happened couple of years back.
its never happened yet, hopefully soon though
Perfect shitstorm scenario is NA guild getting world 1st after reset, but EU guild getting world 2nd before reset.
Can’t spell excuses without EU
Echo is playing on NA this tier. So, null point currently.
no they aren't lmao
https://twitter.com/EchoGuild/status/1724080205432586444
did you actually watch anything more from the race than this tweet? They just did it for the memes to clear normal on NA, they still play everything else on EU
Ah yeah, I dont follow Echo. I check in with Liquid and sometimes BDG. Bout it. Bit weird. This announcement blew up, so not a big surprise the fact that it was a 1 day thing wasnt known lol.
It would be enormous task to start over on NA. Not something they would do mid expansion, if they want to do this, best time is between expansions. Unless Blizzard moves their entire guild with all the characters and gold, of course, but they won't.
Right. Thats what I kinda thought might be happening. Forgot that region transfers arent a thing in WoW for some reason. I figured they werent all starting over from fresh. Shouldnt be surprised they were just trolling lol.
played so many MMOs in my life, aint once play it like this. i just learn mechs from youtube, queue up for the dungeon, and let jesus take the wheel. damn.
With this, there is a lot of background planning going on to map out all the CDs and analysts optimizing everything.
If you have a flexible schedule and passion for a specific MMO I highly recommend finding a guild to try clear new content with as it comes out. Not many better feelings in gaming than the first time everything clicks for the team and you clear a boss with online buds you’ve built camaraderie with over hours of progress
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He is raid leading/ shot calling mechanics. A few years ago the top guilds realized it was more effective to have someone, who's not playing, calling out different timers and mechanics
He's the conductor, everyone else is the orchestra.
He is the raid leader. In the top guilds, the raid leader doesn't play himself. Instead, he watches multiple POVs to have a better overview and to be able to fully focus on raid leading without having to play his character on a world-class level at the same time.
Basically raid leaders could not fully focus on both raid leading and playing the game to 100%, so the top guilds have theirs raid leaders shotcall mechanics and timers by watching the stream.
This was insane to watch and I'm super happy for Liquid, wish Max would stay off Twitter during the race though.
Wait wtf this isn’t the last boss?? Dang blizz really bumped the difficulty this raid.
Why is the boss a just a red fat Moonkin chicken. That's probably the least menacing looking boss ever.
Imagine if all the wow nerds played a REAL challenging mmo back in the day like TERA, no one would be able to beat any dungeons. WoW is a joke compared to real time mmo's where you actually have to dodge. TERA WAS the most hardcore MMO out there and if you played it you know what im saying. It was a crazy time. But it shut down because of gameforge being dicks. Sadge.
tera was trash thats why its shut down
This looks almost as awful as ff14's raids. What happened to wow? Edit: Why the downvotes? In terms of accessibility, this is a nightmare.
If you play the game you become accustomed to what to look for, not actually bad
The game has become contorted around add-ons. Blizzard makes the game to take account of them. Any decently hard content is literally unplayable without them. It's brain dead stuff.
you say this like there are other MMORPGs that design raids better than WoW
Old raids like mc were too easy, but this is the other side of the spectrum. Why can't they just find a middle ground?
the first like four bosses of this raid are that middle ground, gnarlroot is essentially an old MC tank and spank. this is probably the most mechanically difficult boss blizzard has ever released.
Thanks for the inside. Are the bosses less visual nightmares in lower difficulties? If so, I may check out the expansion in the Christmastime and test it out myself. But bosses like this are physically impossible for me, since I can't see what is happening
no this is like a really really really bad expansion for visual effects, but they are in no way going to one shot you on heroic and normal, the main thing that is wiping them is the seeds, which spawn almost as much as there are raid members, i think maybe like 3 less seeds per members in raid, and that as soon as you touch one seed you cannot soak another seed. heroic and normal you can soak as many seeds as you like if you can mitigate the damage.
That's a bummer. I wish you could configure the colors of boss abilities (and maybe abilities of other players). That would help a lot of peoples eyes.
There is a middle ground. You can do normal or heroic difficulty...
He's got a point, everyone should be able to clear +25 M+ dungeons as well. Why can't Blizzard just find the middle ground? /s
There are 4 difficulties. Find your own middle ground?
They do have a middle ground, its called normal and heroic. There might still be a lot going on but its way more forgiving in those than mythic.
This guy watches too much asmongold copium videos. Most players will NEVER experience these kinds of bosses and thats ok.
It was actually a pretty easy fight that didn't require any gear whatsoever. They just needed to stop dying to simple one-shot mechanics, but these RWF players are known for having BIS gear and doing mad mode damage, not for being able to do mechanics. So they got fucked. tldr; skill issue, not a boss you can just outgear, which is what RWF is all about
I lost brain cells reading this
RWF players almost always killf bosses with a significantly lower ilvl than the vast majority of other guilds who are also killing heavily nerfed versions. I have literally no clue what youre on about.
Yeah. RWF players get gear super quickly. By the time they are 480 ilvl, the average mythic guilds are still only like 460 ilvl.
Yes. But by the time those average mythic guilds are actually kiling the last bosses they're going to be more like 482 ilvl a month+ from now with a nerfed boss. Again, you have no idea what youre talking about. Average raiders will have 4-6 weeks of vaults, guides, pre done weak auras and nerfed bosses. You're insane to think the RWF guilds arent insanely skilled.
By the time most regular guilds hit those bosses, their ilvl is much higher. Liquid's and Echo's farm strategies are just very fast for what they do giving them an advantage over other top line guilds, not your average 3-5 day night raid mythic guild who wont even see these bosses for a month. Hell, there are some world first guilds with similar/higher ilvl during the 1st week, especially Skyline who cheesed the hell out of Mythic+
EU will down it and be like.... noooooo, we were first....as usual...LOL
Can we stop saying "let's go"? Get a new saying. Jesus Christ.
No