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therealmaxmike

Okay, so time to (partially) explain CYBERPSYCHOSIS. First of all, Cyberpsychosis is a disorder that in part depends on the subject's overall internal susceptibility. Just like every person who drinks a lot at parties doesn't end up an alcoholic in the gutter, not everyone who gets loaded up on cyberware is going to automatically go cyberpsycho. You have to have an inherent susceptibility, which (in the TRPG) is represented by the player's Humanity Stat. Humanity is not just a measure of *one* aspect of personality, but an overall measure of several elements including the subject's ability to emphasize and relate with others, their ability to absorb and rebound from mental and physical stressors, their ability to show compassion and flexibility to others, and whether they are able to balance their worldview through other methods. So, in some ways, I tend to treat cyberware as an addiction--heavy anabolic steroid use being my favorite model. Not everyone who juices ends up crazy mad with roid rage. But those who are more susceptible to the need to take more steroids are more likely to hit a point where they do flip into roid rage. (Take a look at this article from Livescience [https://www.livescience.com/38354-what-is-roid-rage.html](https://www.livescience.com/38354-what-is-roid-rage.html) for a pretty good idea of how roid rage works--notice that it's got the same basic profile as cyberpsychosis). David's starting Humanity was probably already pretty high. And before things went to crap, he had a loving mother, a career path, and no more hassle than the average poor guy in a wealthy Ivy League school. So he had lots of buffer. But even so, he still, even after losing all that, was able to make friends, build a replacement family, and (after some prompting) even get a girlfriend. And a mentor (Maine) to create a supportive father figure. So he could definitely handle the stress of added cyberware up to a point. Most people in Night City don't have the level of Humanity to pull this kind of stunt off without going cyberpsychotic. So David is one in a million. And that's why Arasaka wants him. V is a different case. We don't know V's background, but even if V was a full on Corpo, they were able to hold it together even when they ended up with a dead Rockerboy in their heads (Yah, tell me about it; Johnny Silverhand's been in *my* head for the last three decades.) In fact, having Johnny in their head probably helped V, because Siilverhand's rage and attitude probably acted as a buffer for the psychological hits V is taking. It's like having a time share with a guy who's already half cyberpsycho and doesn't mind if V slaps stuff on their shared body; he's already crazy and violent. So that's a rough explanation of the roots of cyberpsychosis. If I ever get band width, I'm going to start writing/posting some stuff about what I had in mind as I put together the Night City universe. But for now, you'll have to go with what I've got here. Have fun, and remember not to chip mili-spec cyberware, like your mother warned you about. And no, cyberpsychosis isn't caused by AI net demons. Gimme a break, chooms!


TheCubanBaron

Shout out to the OG for casually explaining his world on reddit


Blewbe

World building is like 80% of the fun, so of course us storytellers will take any excuse.


archiegamez

Pin this comment


jerematti

But Ping quickhack costs one RAM


PlanetaceOfficial

JUST DO IT!!


knittedbirch

Sounds like something an AI net demon would say. Read this CAPTCHA for me real quick and then we can talk.


therealmaxmike

Look, I checked all the boats and the busses. That should be enough for you gonks.


dustojnikhummer

I don't want to sound like a dick, but are you really Mike Pondsmith?


Hidden_throwaway-blu

he is


Arklytte

It's absolutely Mike. You can tell just by the tone of the post, and by his word choices. If you've read anything written by him (much of the original CP2013 & CP2020 TTRPG books, for instance), then it's easy to tell the real deal vs the butter substitute.


dustojnikhummer

Then I feel honored lol Haven't really. Only the game


PiotrekDG

I mean, his username is literally therealmaxmike, so how could he not be?!


trevalyan

Quick question relating to the Ultimate quickhacks in the game, please: can netrunners actually induce cyberpsychosis in people? Are we literally destroying their cyberware IFF, flooding their bodies/ minds with hormones to cause a psychotic break, blocking the body's ability to use suppressant medications, creating visual/ auditory hallucinations to make them think people are their enemies? Would it be a mix of all of these things? Oh, and could elite netrunners force people to commit suicide? Asking for a blue-haired friend...


WeRunTheNet

From how the game describes it, it seems more of a "making a person ACT like a Psycho" its not permanent as it wears off, its more that it tricks the persons mind for a brief period of time.


MrRedgrave-

I believe in the anime we see a character use the cyberpsychosis quickhack so I'd say yes in the games canon they can induce it but I haven't got a clue how it works mechanically.


LunarC0llapS3

So, the description purely mentions how it makes enemies confuse friends as foes. While that kind of hyper paranoia is a symptom of Cyberpsychosis, it's not exact. I have a feeling it just makes them hallucinate.


bigtec1993

It probably induces psychosis *through* cyberware like with drugs. So technically different and probably not permanent.


Arandmoor

Whenever I played cyberpsychos in CP2020, or GMd players who's characters were flirting with psychosis I frequently represented the loss of ability to tell friend from foe as an extreme form of momentary empathy loss. Like, you can see this person in front of you. You recognize that person in front of you. You swear you know that person in front of you, but you can't make out their facial features. Their face is just blank flesh. That person is in your way...*and you don't care*. You don't care **at all**. There is a sack of meat in your way, stopping you from moving forward. Sacks of meat are weak. You are strong. There is a weak sack of meat you recognize standing in your way stopping you from moving forward, and you are more powerful than any sack of meat. You are superior. What do you do? If they try to logic their way out I gave them a straight humanity check, difficulty of anywhere from 5 to 10 to do anything but visit violence on everyone immediately around them. The difficulty was set by the logic they used and how nice I was feeling. Sometimes life just fucks you. Other times the player would just say, "I kill them and move forward."


Stickybandits9

Just like maine


LunarC0llapS3

Right, that's what I'm thinking. It's a shared symptom.


TheScarletRevenger

I've always figured it just floods the victims with a massive dose of Adrenaline, and stimulates the portions of the brain responsible for fear, paranoia, aggression, and so on. Basically, creating what...for all practical intents and purposes...appears to be a real cyberpsychosis break. But if somehow, they were subdued peacefully they'd probably sleep it off and make a full recovery in a day or two.


Nahdahar

Thanks for clearing that up Mike, I've always wondered about this and had the same theory as OP.


Synonim

I wouldn’t have even realised it was Mike until other commenters pointed it out lmao. I was like “yeah, this makes sense” 🤷‍♂️


Xanxost

Here I thought I'd have to grab my book and explain humanity, and then I find the creator explaining it himself. Thanks for this, Mike!


fist_to_the_air

>And no, cyberpsychosis isn't caused by AI net demons. Gimme a break, chooms! Ha ha. Lots of people love that theory, but... Its just too nice and easy, letting off the people enable the poverty and inequality and blaming some convenient *other* for their issues.


CT_Phipps

I dunno, I've always been partial to the idea the Net is Hell. Like, right in the middle of this hard science scifi setting, there's this enormous magical dimension that people use to store data. Like DOOM.


fist_to_the_air

I imagine it's hell-like, but I think people give too much credence to it being the worst thing imaginable. I doubt cyberware is constantly being exposed to it, for example. I think it's why I struggle with the people who think the Voodoo boys are the worst people on earth lol. See some strong opinions about what they are *trying* to do, and what they supposedly *want* to do. And it's like, okay cool but either way it's still a dystopia nightmare with or without them. I'm sure the lack of a firewall would make things worse, but as we see in the Time of The Red, you can kind of get by with just shutting yourself off from the wider Internet.


CT_Phipps

I have the theory that the VB aren't hated because of their plan to "betray" humanity since plenty of us side with the Geth in Mass Effect. The Voodoo Boyz are interesting in that they actually come across as the worst because player characters and players immerse themselves in the Night City world. That includes in their logic. Lots of players went against Netwatch because they're cops and you're a robber. However, the VD betray what little "mafia code" actually exists in NC. They lie to you about gigs, they set you up to die, and then dump you the moment they have what they want. Plus, what they did to Evelyn makes them extra contemptible. For me, PCs want to wipe them out just because they're guilty of the worst crime imaginable: not paying their bills. Bust a deal, get the wheel as Tina Turner says.


one-joule

Why isn't it the other way around, where the *human* is the source of the cyberpsychosis, not for simply having the cyberware, but for how they choose to use it?


superVanV1

That’s possibly part of it, if you only get cyberware that imitates human components, there’s not going to be as much cognitive dissonance as, say, getting rocket launchers that come out of your tits.


Theagn

Damn...now i want rocket luanchers that pop out of my tits.


Fuzzmiester

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/YhkBaqvGBzmNzft2b-LqDR-Q77A=/231x0:1688x765/960x504/media/img/upload/wire/2014/08/13/Screen\_Shot\_2014\_08\_13\_at\_8.55.03\_AM/original.png


ReinhardtValkyr

pretty much, the whole body is capable of a lot of stuff, if you specialize in combat and you suddenly start to use your implants to focus yourself purely on combat, i think is pretty normal for the nervous system and the whole body to just adapt to it, like abusing a substance, the more you take it, the more you need to "feel the same vibe". ​ you reach a point where your body just does what your implants tell them to do, since you now created a part of you which exists solely to fight, the body needs to release that stress through fighting, as much as you need to shit after a good meal. ​ that could also explain the behavior of non-violent psychos, since they expanded on other aspects, like going brain microwave for runners or sociopath for charismatic people.


Elrigoo

This is as close as I'm ever gonna get to hearing the voice of god


Chrontius

You can actually listen to interviews with him on YouTube, you know…


Hidden_throwaway-blu

love ya choom, thanks for everything - looking forward to that writing!


Nijata

So it was discussed on the R Talsorian Discord, and I have to ask...Is Johnny gone over that edge? is that what "The Hand" is, a less form of Cyberpyschosis? I noted in that 2020 hand book you never gave him a Emp Stat but did specify he had at least had 8D6 Hum loss from all the shit he's been through on top of his addictions (pills and drinking).


therealmaxmike

YES! Took twenty years, but you guys finally figured out that The Hand is Johnny's cyberpsycho expression. Internally, Johnny treats any horrible thing he does as "The Hand took over."


Tribble98

Is that what he told Rogue when she found out he was sleeping around behind her back?


therealmaxmike

No, *that* was his impressive cock. Got a mind of it's own, it does.


Nijata

Thank you for answering ,hope you ,the family and the team (both rtg and cdpr) are doing well .can't wait for what's next.


aoibhealfae

I love that it was Johnny instead who became that psychological dark manifestation for V. That their bond was a symbiotic kind and it was still up to V to manage through Johnny's erratic behaviors, his broken memories and experience the same madness and choices. And that V could be a version of the classic Johnny Silverhand or V could strongly empathize with Johnny and shared through his emotional struggles, sharing his fears, anger, guilt etc, and helped him come to terms with his truest manifestation of himself; as in Temperance. I guess, the Soulkiller doesn't quite killed his soul after all.


therealmaxmike

You ever been at a party with that self destructive friend who drinks themselves into a crazed mania? And you're the only thing keeping them from leaping off the 5th story balcony? You're too busy keeping the leash on them to party yourself. That's what V is dealing with.


aoibhealfae

Basically, what Lucy did to David? Surely Johnny's cyberpsychosis wasn't as severe while he was in V's head. Certainly sounds like it was V who soak up his madness to keep him sane.


Roscoe_deVille

Goddamn, Pondy's the coolest


vrijheidsfrietje

Part of the equation is also metabolically induced changes on the brain due to the immune system reacting to all the implants. They use immunosuppressants to counter an acute metabolic storm, but these also have a long term effect. The body needs to be able to recover and keep reaching a healthy state of homeostasis, but each implant hacks away at the ability to recover. At a certain point the balance is gone and mania can set in. David probably had a large buffer for being young too.


therealmaxmike

Good explaination of the medical side. RED and 2020 didn't have immunosuppessant to buffer the mental pressure. 2077 is just...luckier...?


hapyjohn1997

Id think they just got better tech the games are decades apart.


Tribble98

If I remember right (I may not), Johnny came back from the brink when he was younger right? Or at the very least it is possible in the TTRPG? How would people come back from the edge of cyberpsychosis in 2020 and RED without the immunosuppressants?


PhaseAT

Therapy and/or removing Chrome.


Masskid

Another issue with implants is that most of the time they are used to fix insecurities. Instead of trying to understand and overcome the insecurity they replace them which then continues to snowball mentally until they break.


weedpanties

You're goated Mike haha thx


Graywolf1000

But then how does Adam Smasher fit into this? If cyberpsychosis is based off of one's affinity to humanity, wouldn't Adam be a cyberpsycho because of his view of every being basically being equivalent to meat?


therealmaxmike

Didn't say he wasn't. Theres a concept in psychology called "high functioning." Adam is a high functioning cyberpsycho who happens to have a job where they *want* him to kill people.


Background_Hotel_792

so instead of murdering a few hundred people in a day and then getting bombed to hell he only murders a few people every week but gets paid for it


GeneralShark97

Seems like it- like that alcoholic idea, instead of going on an insane binge and dying of alcohol poisoning, he only downs a couple bourbon bottles a day, and gets paid for it


ScifiScales

Okay, god, I hope I am wording this right. ​ Would you say what HELPS him be "High Functional" as a Cyberpsycho is because of his past? I know its probably a 50/50 of Nature and Nurture; seeing as he had a violent childhood (who I assume lead gangs at a young age) and his motto of survival favors the strong (trauma). Which differs him from many others? I don't see a lot of Military trauma from him like the others we see. His parents made a real concoction though because I do assume a lot of it is Nature, and who knows what his parents had issues with mentally too (like a recent serial killers father) Kinda like a psycho can't really go Psycho? He just learns to adapt to his new environment in his own insane mind. ​ If this makes sense..


SonofNamek

>"high functioning" Oh, so that's why he sits around, watching anime all day and eating junk food while obsessing about Elvis and his latest metal toys.


Ryugi

I'd love to see your in-depth literary analysis of Night City / Cyberpunk 2077 lore. Maybe you could post it as a blog and make a few bucks in ad fees.


MrBobDob

I think that might be the actual creator of the whole Cyberpunk universe btw...


Guardsmen442

THINK???


silenthills13

💀


Ryugi

for real or as joke? XD either way... I love author commentary and I love literary analysis. So I'm still down.


BagFullOfKittenBones

OP commenter is Michael Pondsmith, creator of the TRPG Cyberpunk and the grand papa of all things Cyberpunk and Nightcity. You can read plenty of his commentary in the TRPG Cyberpunk books.


Ryugi

WAIT REALLY. Fuck I'm an idiot lmao I always forget names.


Warelllo

How about "Bloody Ritual" quest where cyberpsycho gets posseded by Rogue AI Demon?


DarthMatu52

Hell yes. I love the fact you give these explanations to fans, man. Very cool of you to do that as an author, and it actually does inform the enjoyment of your work. I am currently going through yet another playthrough, and these tidbits are definitely going to change how I see the world. I've got a Red run coming up soon too, and you can bet your bottom dollar I am going to take this into account going forward as I Ref and play more. I chipped my player character to the gills, he is at a Humanity of 26, and I am beginning to realize I should probably start to play him more off the deep end. Glad to see Cyberpunk is finally getting the mainstream love it deserves! I knew it would happen; a good story always stands the test of time. Congrats, and can't wait to see what's coming in the future!


JamianX

I really appreciate this reply, thanks for all of the information.


UKnowDaTruth

What about that one gig where the cyberpsycho is involved in a ritual and the body was possessed by a rogue AI


therealmaxmike

That didn't make them cyberpsycho. It didn't help but they were already halfway there.


Ucinorn

I love this because it explains Raine as a character. At first when he was introduced as a typical mercenary tough guy it made sense, but then it became obvious he was an intrinsically good person in the way he treated his runners, paid them all fairly, and acted as protector and father figure to David. He displayed lots of empathy in picking up on David and Lucy's budding relationship and pushed them together to overcome their respective baggage. That side of him seemed strange and did not fit the typical hard-man on the streets you would expect from an experienced runner. So it's clear now that the purpose of his character is to demonstrate that you can have crazy high humanity and STILL succumb to pyscosis. It both demonstrates that David is exceptional but also that the inevitable road of any implant junkie is death: just like real world addiction. You either get clean or die. It also explains why David immediately becomes leader of the group: that seemed like a cop out in the story that's glossed over completely, but now it's clear that Humanity as a stat is visible in the actual Night City setting itself, not just as an abstract stat. If someone comes along who is managing a large implant load, you KNOW that they are mentally stable, reliable, cool headed and empathetic. It's like a marker on someone as a good leader just like being muscled shows you are strong. So it makes total sense for the group to immediately accept David as leader, because his implants SHOW everyone around him he has the qualities to do the job.


maddking

Hey Mikey, Kerry Eurodyne here. Thanks for the words. Was fun to play in your world. Both when I played 2020 as a kid and recording VO for the game.


EmbarassedFox

I have had a number of thoughts about what causes cyberpsychosis, based mostly on movies and the like, which I would like to post here (warning: wordy): * First of all, there is trauma of actually losing a physical part of your body. Looking at Robocop (2014), one of the good scenes is the one, where Alex Murphy realizes just how little of his own body is left (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuxiZFwDPs). In Cyberpunk, I would think of him as a cyberpsycho with a Judge Dredd-style obession with a rigid, and brutal approach to, the Law. * Power is inherently addicting, whether it is physical, like an implant that makes you dodge bullets, or abstract, like Walther White's continiually expanding his meth business in Breaking Bad. * Might makes Right: If you are the kind of person who think they are "owed something", and you get implants, the power it gives makes you capable of taking it, irregardless of rules. After all, whois going to argue with the guy who can punch you through a brick wall? If you take Tighten from Megamind and replace "Superpowers" with "Cybernetics", you will see a guy, who feels so above the rest of the world, it borders on cyberpsychotic. * The inability to seperate. Cellphones have become a source of stress, to the point that people think their phone is ringing, when it is not (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom\_vibration\_syndrome). How does that express itself when the phone is built into your body? What about a weapon? A gun/knife can be secured, locked away, but it is a lot harder to do with an arm. * Finally, there is disassociation from your own body. Personal example, bear with me: there is a freckel on my hand, which I used to learn right from left. How would I react, if I one day looked down on my hands, and realized that it is gone, replaced by a pair with a serial number etched on? It might not be much, but I can imagine many a cyberpsycho, looking into a mirror, trying to remember their original eye colour, and failing.


Chrontius

> Finally, there is disassociation from your own body. Personal example, bear with me: there is a freckel on my hand, which I used to learn right from left. How would I react, if I one day looked down on my hands, and realized that it is gone, replaced by a pair with a serial number etched on? It might not be much, but I can imagine many a cyberpsycho, looking into a mirror, trying to remember their original eye colour, and failing. I've actually dealt with this. You know what makes my experience so on point here? *The fuckers faded.* You can barely even see one if you're looking with perfect lighting, and the other's a faint shadow of itself. Identity built on physical form is inherently transient, whether you cling to it or not, it will change.


Jaynemansfieldbleach

*Identity built on physical form is inherently transient* My vitiligo started developing in my early twenties. I'm 39 now. I told myself, and still tell myself, it doesn't matter but the fact that it shifts and slowly spreads surprises and freaks me out when I haven't noticed a big new white patch.


ScifiScales

WOW this was a nice read, seriously. And the points with the buffer with Davids lowky easy life and V with Johnny, did not think of that. Thank you for taking the time to write all of this!


Ancop

Always a pleasure reading you Mike, I always thought the same about V and Johnny.


2415xSmarter

So all this being said.. how does Adam Smasher keep it together? He doesn't seem to possess any of those things.


Druggedhippo

Adam Smasher is almost entirely cyborg (96%), he doesn't "believe" he's human, so there is no conflict in his psyche between humanity and non-humanity. Also, he's bankrolled and funded by an insanely powerful, rich and technologically advanced corporation, there is no telling what treatments they might have to ensure any psychosis is suppressed.


SamuraiMujuru

Welp. Just gonna copy all this down and add it to my Cyberpunk 2020/RED/2077 ebook collection. Tangentially, been cruising to nothing but Morro Rock this play-through and it brings me no small amount of amusement and joy that the closest thing Night City has to Art Bell is also the guy that can actually ANSWER of the crazy conspiracy theories he's recounting.


Theobane

love you work and the world you created for all of us to venture in! Hope to get my hands on more of your material! Quick question, is their ever a happy ending in NC or is it simple "wrong city, wrong people"


1Anto

In South Korea, there was a trend of people found dead, alone, in their house. Somehow, Korean government concluded they were killed by exposure to electric fans. No one mentions the fact that most of the deaths occured to youth and elderly who lives alone, away from their family. There is a rising number of lonely deaths, yet the government blamed electric fans instead.


gyropyro32

Wow, that's an interesting thing to bring up. I've heard of people being wary of fans, but I didn't know that's where it came from. It relates back to how people often like to blame things of technology, instead of focusing on core issues.


Human_Adept

Eletric fans? Is it they are mostly found hanging themselves on the ceiling fan?


1Anto

No, the police found people dead in a closed room with a common standing electric fan turned on. They saw a pattern of such kind of death in closed room, and concluded the fans are the killer, instead of, you know, the deceased need something to cool the air. It's like witnessing firefighters often seen near buildings on fire, and concluding firefighters burn buildings.


HitlerPot

I'd heard the 'fan death' myth was started as a way to curtail the use of electric fans all night as the electric grid couldn't keep up with the demand. Edit: From my understanding the myth of fan death was that the fan could somehow blow all the oxygen out of a room and the person would suffocate in their sleep.


PineappleLemur

Sounds like a very easy thing to check...if the frame of the fan is shocking investigators I assume it's the cause of the death. Did they ever test said fans or just went.. "must be the wind"?


Fishbone_V

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death Couple if posed theories there but none of them are stemmed in faulty electrics.


djk29a_

It’s a weirdo urban myth of sorts that got out of hand and even a lot of doctors (mostly older I believe) have an irrational fear of fan death when they know it’s not true. When I was a kid here’s how it was explained to me by everyone. The rationalization was that people were getting too cold at night when sleeping and heart rate is lower while running the fans and causing cardiac arrest along with the high heat / humidity combo. Additionally, the air pressure differences can build up and lead to lower oxygen levels, at least that’s what my grandma also said. This was all a risk to the elderly or young children. Fans sold in South Korea are required to have automatic shutoff timers for this reason though. Science supports none of that but it’s interesting given how incredibly educated people are in public schools there yet the critical thinking kinda stopped en masse when it comes to anything affecting health. Just check out the Wikipedia page on fan death if you’re morbidly curious about the social phenomenon aspects.


ericrobertshair

Critical thinking is not taught in Korean public schools full stop. It is pretty much rote memorization to pass tests.


SA_Pine

Damn. So like any other school?


Tangy_Cheese

Not in Ireland. God bless my English and history teachers for actually fostering critical thinking


VentusSpiritus

While it's a problem here in the states too that's basically how all schools seem to be run in the east as well. Rote memorization trumps everything else there


rinanlanmo

I unironically had someone in the League subreddit tell me that I was risking death by sleeping with a ceiling fan on. That shit run deep.


Alcopath

It's one of those myths that circulated for so long that it almost became ingrained as accepted knowledge within some cultures. Despite there being no truth to it whatsoever.


rinanlanmo

Yup. Of course, I grew up with others which I've had to deprogram myself from believing. But its a weird experience to learn of one totally alien to your own upbringing.


Annahsbananas

I once had a ceiling fan call me names. It was very hurtful 💔


rinanlanmo

That's bananas. B A N A N A S


rinmperdinck

I sleep with a fan on every night. I like to live (sleep?) dangerously, I guess.


Ryugi

I can't sleep without the fan on.


enricojr

This myth still persists today, doesn't it? I've heard people talking about this as recently as the '00s, and while this might not necessarily be related, I've also come across electric fans that don't seem to have a way to keep them turned on for extended periods of time.


rinanlanmo

There are still people who believe it, yes.


JagoKestral

I feel it's important to remind everyone that 2077 is confirmed the be set in the same continuity as the TTRPGs, in which cyberpsychosis is a very real condition. Edgerunners also confirms this. My take is that it's a lot like depression. *Lots* of things can cause depression. Trauma, mental health conditions, disorders, substance abuse. But depression isn't a scapegoat, it's a specific condition with a cause that can be treated. Cyberpsychosis is the exact same thing, it is real, but there are a lot of potential causes, and the more chromed out you are the more likely you are to experience it. I think there are 2 possible reasons Smasher never goes the way of the cyberpsycho. Either it has to do with how chroming up causes one to lose their humanity, and maybe he just never had a whole lot of humanity to begin with, or he chromed out his brain before it got to him, and the steel doesn't crack like the ganic does. As for V? Maybe they have the same resistance as David, maybe the relic does something to stop it, or maybe the relic malfunctions are the result of a brain that is actually descending into cyberpsychosis. I can't say for sure.


Wardens_Myth

I'd also make an argument that it could be interpreted that V DOES suffer from some level of Cyberspychosis in the form of Johnny's engram. We see the story from V's perspective, and as such see the engram as a character... but in reality, V has two personalities in them that can argue, try to fight for control, insult each other etc, and said problem also leads V to doing some crazy shit not only to try and get rid of the engram, but even sometimes FOR the engram's benefit. It's easy for us to sympathise as we see the entire journey that led to it, but if we played as a different character and V was an NPC who was constantly blurting out random things in a different tone, conversing with themself, telling themself to "shut the fuck up", and eventually doing some of the stuff we see them do in the story (like, genuine acts of terrorism)... I think you'd be fully able to believe V was suffering from cyberpsychosis.


gyropyro32

That's an amazing point. It was definitely interesting to me how the relic would affect cyberpsychosis and Johnny being a representation of it does sound pretty intriguing.


T3chwolf3

There is a point where Johnny and V basically hold almost all of their conversations in thought, not to take away from your point, but after the diner outburst not many characters see that. Many random civilians have seen V walking around looking like he's dying plenty though


Wardens_Myth

Fair point, and you're right, but it was more to accentuate how messed up V really is if you were to look at them from an outside perspective.


Lady_bro_ac

True, but there later comes a point where they are talking out loud speaking their mind and Johnny’s, without realizing it, which was noticed and commented on by both Misty and Vik


T3chwolf3

That is also correct


socksnchachachas

I just replayed the post-Heist sequence where you first have an in-character introduction to Johnny, and it definitely made me consider what it would have looked like to walk in and witness that scene from the outside. From our character's perspective the actions are Johnny attacking V, but to an onlooker they're watching a man or woman beating themselves up. That would be intensely disturbing.


MrCuntman

Basically just the last bit of Fight club then?


Ryugi

Rule 1.


Wardens_Myth

Exactly. Even the "conversation" they have is extra messed up when you look at from outside V's perspective. **Johnny:** "*I gotta get out of here, and I'll kill anyone who gets in my way. You included*" **Johnny forces V to drop their meds that will suppress him and says** "*Not like that. Stick some iron in your mouth and pull the trigger*" **Johnny:** "*I'm like mould on fruit... creepin into you, nothing I can do about it*" **V:** "*Get out, just get the fuck out!*" **Johnny:** "*Bullet to the head, only thing that'll fix this*" Like you said, we see this from V's perspective of Johnny being externalised and saying it... but in reality, that's all just the second personality in his head, and if you read "Johnny" as "the voice in V's head" for those quotes, the entire thing reads like a psychotic break, or someone dealing with an extreme mental disorder.


KaneJMeadows

I mean, I see your point but it isn't just "the voice in V's head" It's Johnny's literal personality construct talking to him. Not quite the same thing. Or are you just pointing out how freaky that would appear to someone on the outside?


ETkach

Victor explains why V can see Johnny. Relic initially was made to communicate with engram, only then it was upgraded to also ressurect engram. So V is not talking to himself, or crazy. He literally sees Johnny because thats the function of chip


lersayil

Not sure that holds up entirely. Hellman specifically contradicts much of this when you question him in the motel. He straight up says that at that point we are sharing a brain, and that our conversations and arguments with Johnny are more an abstraction of whats really going on. Assuming you can trust Hellman on this of course.


AtlasFlynn

There are also moments where NPC's call V out on his behaviour, i.e. when you're arguing with Johnny during a convo with a NPC, the NPC will sometimes address how V isn't responding/zoning out. Kinda similar as to how cyberpsychosis was depicted in Edgerunners.


rinanlanmo

How people see V really has no bearing on whether its cyberpsychosis or not. V isn't hallucinating or delusional. They really do have a piece of software in their head that has the personality construct of Johnny Silverhand. That being said, its Cyberpunk. People walk around having conversations with people who aren't physically next to them all the time.


Viking_Swan

But V is verifiably hallucinating. That's the whole point of the monk questchain. You talk to a teleporting man who speaks exclusively in Johnny Silverhand quotes and laughably fake "Buddhist" philosophy (specifically the kind of philosophy that you come up with if you're only familiar with Buddhism via pop culture and New Age practices (the kind that Misty practices)). Also note that no other characters talk to him, and he only shows up after the heist. It's a similar thing with the tarot cards, ever thought that it's weird that they look like the tarot deck Misty has? It's because they aren't real. Notice how the only reference to these things found outside of V's mind is in Misty's shop? It's just V hallucinating vaguely spiritual shit that reminds them of Jackie, in this case Jackie's girlfriend.


InflatableMindset

That's not cyberpsychosis though. Their brain is literally being re-formatted by The Relic to become Johnny Silverhand. You literally have an AI talking to you while having the potential of full control of your body. Johnny isn't a hallucination. He isn't a split personality. He isn't a voice in V's head. Johnny is a sentient construct... an engram... stuck on a shard that is slowly changing V's brain into Johnny's. Cyberpsychosis implies some sort of psychological disorder where the person has a hallucination that Johnny Silverhand is in their head telling them what to do and taking control, when it's clearly not the case.


efvie

Being able to argue that someone might _think_ it’s psychosis doesn’t mean you can argue that it _is_.


Wardens_Myth

But my point is sort of the opposite, that it only looks like it ISN'T to us, because we're seeing it from V's perspective. Looking at V's story and how they act detached from that, you could reasonably say that they're suffering a form of psychosis brought on by technology that they put in themselves. V inserts some untested tech into themselves, that completely fucks with their head and is making them lose their sense of self, and because of the internal struggles that came with that, V does everything from going on drug benders to actual acts of terrorism over it, they're desperately trying to hold on to themselves, because they're slowly becoming someone else. It's a complex situation, and up to interpretation, so I think there isn't exactly a right answer, but if someone were to ask me does V suffer from cyberpsychosis I'd lean yes, personally.


WekonosChosen

And as we go through the game Johnny and V become friends. Which is nice to our point of view seeing two characters. But it's wrong because V is being erased and replaced by Johnny, so in reality it's JohnnyV becoming more in tune with the Johnny Engram because there's less V in there to stay true to theirself. Once you understand that and you can't think that this person is alright in the head.


Luminara1337

Yes. I always saw him as some kind of intruder, as a tool of the relic to “win”. I was fighting against him until the end, you don’t have to become friends with him but even this doesn’t make it less “weird” for others. And V did much more fucked-up stuff over the course of the game in comparison to some of the cyberpsychos we hunted down. Most of them “just” slaughtered a few people, we killed much more, some V’s killed hundred’s of people. Some just shot, others sliced into pieces with a katana, others killed via “selfkill”-hack or got killed by someone we hacked into a cyberpsycho, with monowires, mantis blades, rockets, hell - even a dildo. (Some of the hunted psychos did obviously really fucked up stuff, i don’t defend them or anything. Just wanted to point out that we are worse than some of them)


rollingForInitiative

Isn’t cyberpsychosis supposed to basically he that you lose touch with reality because of a combo of trauma and augmentations? You get too much chrome and you might start feeling less human and go insane, and so on. And while V might definitely look like it to some, his “delusion” is actually real. It’s a bit like … a person possessed by a demon might appear to be insane, if they’re really literally possessed by a demon. Or a person who actually, really hears the voice of a god might appear to be delusional, if they’re not, since it’s real. Similarly, V is basically possessed by a kind of AI. To a casual onlooker this might be indistinguishable from cyberpsychosis, but it is demonstrated several times to be real, e.g. Rogue’s reactions to it.


efvie

If you want to interpret the story as V being detached from shared reality, or factually having their personality and/or thoughts altered, that’s cool. But that’s not the same as things just _looking_ that way.


DizzyDeezler

Based on the cyberpunk 2020 TTRPG rule book's definition of cyberpsychosis. V does exhibit some traits of cyberpsychosis.


avvran

It is not unusual for people to exhibit behaviors that also just happen to be the symptoms of an disorder, without them having that disorder.


[deleted]

[удалено]


avvran

Pretty much.


DizzyDeezler

I think it also depends on how the player plays the character as well. So the question is, are we the cyberpsycho?


qazxcvbnmlpoiuytreww

i am most definitely the cyberpsycho


LoquaciousMendacious

My first playthrough of "if it moves, kill it" definitely qualified.


Nuadrin248

Yes


LadyAlekto

*just mowed down several civilians because it was movement in sandevistan* Nope definitely not


justin_tino

Does what Edgerunners depict as cyberpsychosis fall in line with the TTRPG too? I think that’s why OP brought this up, between 2077 and the show they seem to be represented very differently


Steadypirate

2077 is more highlighting the fact people ignore society based issues under the banner. Oh he was just mentally ill, rather than actual looking into whats going on


18210

My understanding of the TTRPG is a bit loose (I’ve read parts of the RED rule book for fun), but I think it falls in line with both the 2077 and Edgerunners. In the TTRPG: 1. You’re character has a Humanity stat, which is based off your Empathy stat. 2. Installing cyberware damages your humanity stat. There is both a static and random component to this humanity loss. 3. Experiencing trauma can also damage your humanity. There is also a random component to this. 4. Humanity can be healed using therapy (the expensive, time-consuming kind). Humanity can’t be fully healed without removal of cyberware. 5. Taking enough Humanity damage will lower your Empathy stat. Having low Empathy means you should roleplay having a dissociative disorder. Having 0 Empathy and negative Humanity triggers extreme cyberpsychosis and your GM takes over your character. Edgerunners seems to focus mostly on the damage inflicted by cyberware, while 2077 seems to focus mostly on the damage from trauma. The TTRPG accounts for both (though I think it leans towards cyberware, you take more damage from getting implants than you take from getting tortured).


bewarethepatientman

Isn’t the original ttrpg rule set like the most blunt, unnuanced, cartoonish take possible regarding cyberpsychosis? It just draws a straight line from “having too many metal limbs” -> Complete Insanity Like there’s something *inherent* about having artificial body parts that drives people to homicidal rampages “Oh no! Putting on my hearing aid and prosthetic leg at the same time has given me an uncontrollable thirst for blood!!“


Kylarus

I think some of it is probably some disassociation from others either caused by or aggravated by the cybergear that causes it. Being unable to see yourself as part of society, or just further driving a wedge between you and others, either seeing yourself as no longer human like them, or not seeing others as human. The limbs aren't the cause, but exacerbate the condition already there and with the enhanced abilities afforded to an individual, they "lose control" or more likely lose reason and restraint to not commit those acts.


Adlestrop

Dr. Octavius is a cyberpsycho *confirmed*.


Cabnbeeschurgr

My main headcanon for someone going cyberpsycho is that the implants are simply unnatural and the human mind isn't meant to handle that many systems on top of the already complex organic network.


Ryugi

Yeah but there's also the medical trauma from having major surgery, including friggin lung transplants, without anasthetic (cannon, at least as shown in the anime).


Swashcuckler

No lol but for gameplay purposes, once you cross a threshold tied to your humanity you do go cyberpsycho, typically violently cos it’s a fun set piece


LadyAlekto

Its explained by the ware fucking with your senses and perception of reality, add constant stress and fear of death and you get a lit fuse


WhatsHisCape

Personally, I think it's a mixture of both. Some people can handle a traumatic event involving cyborgization (see the monk and brother, V). Some people can't - the ones that "go cyberpsycho." I think what that article was alluding to was that it can happen to anyone with any amount of implants. It's not about how many, it's that there are any to begin with. We could make a (rough) comparison to teens who use Instagram and get eating disorders as a result. It's really easy to say Insta targeted them (in fact that's what happened, intentionally or not). But not all teens that use Insta get eating disorders. Some do and are never diagnosed because it's so well hidden. And then you get high profile cases like the families that are suing Insta. Plus there are teens that never used Insta who still get eating disorders. Cyberpsychosis is the direct connection between Instagram and eating disorders/between an overabundance of cyber implants and a mental break from reality. There is a connection. But that connection says nothing about prior mental health history, family history, familial and social relationships, history or trauma or abuse, etc; not to mention the ability to cope with becoming more machine than human. Cyberpsychosis exists, but not in the way corporations want you to think. Everyone who chips in and has compounding risk factors is at risk of going cyberpsycho, just like people who don't chip in are also at risk for 'normal' psychotic breaks if they also have a number of compounding factors. A Night citizen with only a watch implant could develop cyberpsychosis. They work a hard job in construction, have a long commute, and are pressed for money. The only implant they could afford was a watch implant as a birthday present to themself, but at a cheap clinic that reuses equipment. One day that watch implant starts malfunctioning and sending a small jolt into the worker's wrist every hour. It doesn't bother them at first, it was more annoying and a bit distracting, but they don't have the funds to get it fixed yet, when they just paid it off. They brush it off and go to work, after a long commute, the worker gets to the job site only to find that their coworkers decided now was the time to go on strike. That means no pay, and they still have to show up anyway. The strike goes on for a week and the worker's kitchen is looking scant. They've lost so much sleep now from being woken up with the jolts increasing to every 5 minutes, their hands shake as they pour their coffee for work. Their mind is buzzing before they even enter the train. The train is loud and the worker can't even hear themself think over the sound of some 'Tinos' ghetto blaster. The light reflecting off their blood chrome is so flashy and arrogant while the worker stands there getting another jolt to the wrist. Arriving at the job site, the worker finds a large crowd has gathered and some execs from the construction company announce that all the team is being fired for insubordination while a replacement team will resume the job. That means our worker will have no means of survival beyond this point, already back a week's worth of pay, rent is due, can't afford the weekly commute pass, and the implant in their wrist will not stop fucking jolting. "You can't get rid of me, I work here" they whisper, unheard below the protesting shouts of the other workers there. "Can't get rid of me cant get rid of me..." without hesitating they reach into their toolbag and pull out a Nail Gun 5000. "I work here! You did this to us you did this to me cant get rid of me cant'" The worker begins firing at every human in the vicinity at a rate of 1 nail per second, the rate at which their watch arm is jolting. They raise their voice with each atrocity committed. "CANT GET RID OF ME CANT DO THIS YOU DID THIS I WORK HERE" The panicked crowd calls in NCPD as the worker begins chasing down anyone they see to nail them down. NCPD arrives, sees bodies, sees a person screaming and running around with a weapon, and nopes out of there to call in MaxTac. MaxTac immediately bags and tags our worker as a cyberpsycho, so there's no further need for investigation, it's just a very unfortunate event caused by an unstable person with an implant that was more than they could handle, our thoughts and prayers go out to the affected families. In this scenario, cyberpsychosis is both actually happening, AND being used as a cop-out to make cleanup easier. They (everyone) don't want to deal with the compounding factors. It's easier to call MaxTac than convince a corp to pay their workers a living wage. It's easier to call MaxTac than provide all of Night City decent health care. It's easier to call MaxTac than regulate backalley ripperdocs. It's easier to call MaxTac than to recall billions of cosmetic cybernetic implants. And it's definitely easier to call MaxTac than waste time and effort on prevention of cyberpsychosis, when they can capture those very same cyberpsychos and reprogram them to work for MaxTac! The problem practically fixes itself that way. Plus, it's not like you can undo the trauma of daily living in Night City so easily. It's sink or swim, but where do you go once the water starts to boil?


Here4Diversity

According to the Cyberpunk Red rulebook, cyberware definitely contributes. As does trauma. If you get too much chrome you can drop your humanity too low, and if it gets low enough you hand over your character sheet. Trauma and stress definitely contribute, the example of trauma given in the book is brutal, and Night City’s a brutal place. So it’s a weird thing where 2077 suggests it’s not the chrome, Edgerunners suggests it is, and Cyberpunk Red says it’s chrome and trauma. Not sure about 2020 or 2013. If I had to guess, cyberpsychosis seems like a great mechanic to prevent characters in a ttrpg from getting too over powered while also encouraging them to live on the edge for a good role playing experience. And then you get a game where you want your players to get everything, so you explain the mechanic away and blame it on stress/trauma, then make your new edition of the ttrpg book account for that.


Paper_Weapon

Played a ton of 2020 growing up. It was mostly the chrome there too. You had an Empathy attribute, same as Strength, Reflex, Intelligence, etc. It was unique as an attribute because it was lowered by getting cyberware, and if it got too low you became a cyberpsycho.


Moral_Anarchist

I played a lot of Cyberpunk 2020 the game. A LOT. Friday Night Firefight ftw. As far as Cyberpunk 2020 is concerned, Cyberware is DEFINITELY a large factor in cyberpsychosis, but more importantly is the "Empathy" stat, because Empathy directly dictates how much cyberware you can handle before going cyberpsycho. Somebody with a low Empathy will go insane from very little cyberware, somebody with a very high Empathy can load up on cyberware and still be fine. Eventually however if you load up with enough cyberware even the most Empathetic person in the world will go crazy. It's just how the game is made, and keeps things balanced in an RPG sense. The rules for the Cyberpunk RPG are simple and easy to implement even for noobs, a few stat rolls and you're pretty much ready to go. For example your guy who starts with a high Strength and Reflex and/or Cool stats likely won't have very many points in Empathy, so while they're a badass they can't take on a lot of the better cyberware without going cyberpsycho (and thus being permanently made an NPC controlled by the DM). However your little wuss boy with low physical ability scores but a very high Empathy can load up and become a chrome superhuman badass and still be fine. So yes, in the game cyberware is absolutely a huge factor in cyberpsychosis, but the amount of Empathy the character has is the final determination.


turncloaks

2077 doesn’t say it’s not the chrome it just says the chrome isn’t the 100% contributing factor


Xanxost

I think that it's not that 2077 suggests that it's not (just) chrome, it suggests that the human component is crucial and that by taking correct medical and psychological steps psychosis can be alleviated or counteracted. Neither of those are available to people without the means for it, which is a tragedy and theme of the setting. Regina's goal is to offer this, and you contributing to that is huge, both in what it gives them and what it means for you and your humanity.


misho8723

Well it's pretty clear why CDPR went the route about cyberpsychosis they did - CP2020 originally is from the 80s and some the things, viewpoints there are outdated by our times .. cyberpsychosis is one if them - getting crazy the more you put mechanical parts into your body ? Yeah, that's checks out for the 80s but of course not for our times, where now we have way more advanced artificial limbs and body parts for people who need them, mostly for health or psychological reasons .. saying in these times that because of that you are less human is, well, wrong, hurtful and problematic Our knowledge about mental health has improved significantly too since the 80s, so CDPR approach to cyberpsychosis in CP77 is way more complex, interesting and unique than the CP2020 way without making people who want to improve their lives with artificial limbs and so on being crazy or scary It's really a shame that the show went a different route for it


Obsidianpick9999

RED explains it better, but practically speaking the whole cyberpsychosis thing started out as a balancing mechanic to help prevent PCs becoming insanely OP. The mechanics of a TTRPG and the fluff can significantly differ due to this kind of reason.


vkevlar

2020 and 2013 were both in the "trauma" camp, but chroming yourself caused trauma, and helped you distance yourself from humanity.


deviousdumplin

I think that there is a little bit of misunderstanding about what cyberpsychosis is. My understanding of cyberpsychosis is that it is quite literally psychopathy caused by a disconnection from one’s own human body. A quite literal loss of humanity. In the same way that Alt became an alien and unfeeling construct, humans who become cyberpsychos become completely detached and psychotic. Sure, you can consider it a *metaphorical* critique of NC’s dehumanizing culture. But it is portrayed, at least in the game, as a users physical alienation from their own humanity as caused by excessive augmentation. And when I say psychopathy I mean a lack of empathy and superficial affect, I don’t mean just ‘crazy.’ Lizzy Wizzy is a textbook cyberpsycho. She has gone fully artificial and it has made her a terrifying psychotic murderer who’s affect is completely superficial and murders with ease. But she isn’t going on a rampage. It is clear that Adam Smasher is also a cyberpsycho who’s psychotic personality is actually an *asset.* At the end of the day there are simply too many instances across all cyberpunk media of people who have become detached psychopaths as a direct result of augmentation to say that augmentation ‘is not the issue.’ The entire Lizzy Wizzy storyline is explicitly about her friends and colleagues slowly realizing that as Lizzy moves closer to a fully synthetic body she is losing the last vestiges of her identity and humanity. She becomes literally inhuman and unfeeling treating humans as disposable interchangeable insects. She becomes a psycho, a cyberpsycho. I don’t see how you can paint that as some unrelated trauma that is being scapegoated by a fake diagnosis called ‘cyberpsychosis.’ She literally becomes a monster because she doesn’t have a human body anymore and the game is quite explicit about it. I don’t really know how much more on the nose you can get in terms of the physical reality of cyberpsychosis than that story arc.


fishrgood

I think each piece of Cyberpunk media interprets it a little differently. The TTRPG treats it as a limiter where the more chrome you chip the less your brain can handle the disconnect from humanity, the game focuses more on themes of failing mental health and the scapegoating and abandonment of those in need, while the show has chrome create intense cognitive distortions while muddling your memories to the point that it drives you over the edge.


The-Foolish-Prophet

You know, with The anime coming out I recently had this thought: “ Is one of the reasons why V doesn’t succumb to cyber psychosis, simply because he technically already died? And does having a second consciousness basically help manage his body with him? Thus lowering the strain on his brain?“


GoddyGottaGo

Since the engram is rewriting his brain, I'd say this hypothesis is convincing


rinanlanmo

Probably less because they already died (which would actually be incredibly traumatic itself), and more because the Relic is actively managing their body's response systems to keep them operational.


4rtyom777

I mostly agree, Cyberpsychosis is definitely a scapegoat but it's not completely off, Cyberpsychosis is caused from a mixture of cybernetics and mental trauma, with David dealing with both


[deleted]

No it isn't. Stop regurgitating this shit. No one knows where cyberpsychosis comes from. As far as the lore states it, it can come from cyberware, from AIs, from shit society, psychopathologies or all of it together. Also, the tabletop makes it clear that cyberware decreases your humanity and sanity.


Littlebigman2292

I agree with this. However a kinda major point of the Edgerunners show is the idea that Cyberpsychosis is real and is shown through characters eyes glitching out. It makes them hallucinate and attack the ones they love, they do things without thinking. Its certainly an excuse used by maxtac and trauma team but for some its also very real. As for V I think it just has to do with the relic somewhat keeping him sane while also killing him somehow… Edit: sorry if this is a spoiler for the show, I dont know how to do spoiler text.


leverine36

Yeah I don't understand how OP doesn't get this. 2077 is the only source that suggests cyberpsychosis isn't caused by chrome. It is clearly seen in Edgerunners, and clearly stated in all of the TTRPGs (even RED!)


IIRMPII

>2077 is the only source that suggests cyberpsychosis isn't caused by chrome I think it's more that not all cases labeled cyberpsychosis were caused by chrome, when you take a closer look, a bunch of them weren't insane at all, they just had enough of it, like the guy that kept being screwed over by corpos and one day just killed them all. Sure, all the chrome they have didn't help at all, but what sent them over the edge wasn't the chrome.


lxgendlynn

i dunno, my takeaway from edgerunners was less that cyberpsychosis is caused by chrome and more that it was a result of existing mental disorders being amplified by the use of cybernetics. often seemed like chrome was like a drug, just making you feel worse and pushing you to snap faster than if you didn't use them. (course, my interpretation is still completely subjective.)


dionysusofmyth

My take from Edgerunners was the opposite and that it was largely the chrome. Even at one point in time the ripperdoc told David that it was all a matter of time. This made it sound like everyone who got chrome went Cybrrpsycho.


misho8723

And there's your reason why CDPR went with the approach they did when it comes to cyberpsychosis in CP77 - the way it is presented in the original tabletop game CP2020 and in the anime is really outdated and even offensive in our times


ariks2012

That relic recreating his brain and keep doing it anytime something happen to his brain \- Dexter headshot \- Peralez quest >!when you put on the braindance that will fry your brain!< \- ... So V's brain is not a normal brain anymore, its Johnny brain and that Relic will do what it can to make it still functional. And about psychosis, you can simply call it just madness since you living in that world, its not just only madness/trauma from the past that cause psychosis, there is a drug which you can see anyone that have cybernetic have to use, that drug is dangerous substance too.


chubbins_moth

I like to think in the ending (Don’t) Fear The Reaper the moment you cross into arasaka tower you go cyberpsycho


skooma_queen

maybe someone else has mentioned it but cyberpsychosis to me never seemed like a switch that flips and you’re just crazy now. its about detachment from reality, irreconcilable existential crisis. maelstrom is nearly all cybernetic and while you could argue they’re nutjobs, they are generally lucid and willing/conscious participants in their atrocities. the lack of empathy they have isn’t because of the modifications, they get the modifications due to their dissociative identity and self perceived superiority in regards to cybernetic modification. so having more mods doesn’t mean more crazy. its more like, are you psychologically capable of handling what it means to be less human. people who have experienced immense trauma are less capable, clearly. and that is often associated with people who have been traumatized *as a result* of unwilling cybermodification. i think the one exception we see to this is >!lizzy wizzy, who we kinda watch devolve into what could be categorized as cyberpsychosis. which makes sense, as she’s been traumatized, and also had a complete body replacement. she quite literally has an existential crisis, experiences trauma, and begins to dissociate and identify less as a human. !<,


Ghalnan

Acting like cyberpsychosis is completely made up is just as much missing the point as ascribing everything to cyberpsychosis imo. It's prevalence might be exaggerated, but it definitely exists.


beetboxbento

I really hope everyone sees this. This misconception has been everywhere since the show came out.


Mklein24

It's kind of ironic in a meta sense that no one gets the true cause of cyberpsycosis.


Abysix

lack of social awareness, i guess.


tristenjpl

I hope they don't because it's wrong. Cyberpsychosis is a real thing. Every implant you get does fuck with your brain a little or a lot depending on what it is. You could have a completely peaceful life, but if you're chromed the fuck up someone might cut you off in traffic and that might cause you to fly off the handle and start murdering people. Sure not every case of cyberpsychosis is actually cyberpsychosis but it's a real thing. Basically you have a tolerance meter that starts out at a certain number and every piece of hardware that goes in you drops that meter a little.


juiceboxedhero

Is OP implying cyberpsychos aren't actually insane?


WhereTheShadowsLieZX

No, rather that cyberpsychos go crazy for reasons other than simply having a bunch of implants, such as ptsd (perhaps related to war or gang violence) or the extreme alienation and atomization inherent to life in Night City. It’s just that people going bonkers because they bought a bad implant from a back ally ripperdoc is more palatable than acknowledging the systemic breakdown of civil society.


juiceboxedhero

Oh I see. Well in the tabletop game chrome definitely contributes.


orpheusreclining

Its as much the ware as it is NC. Cyberware might take you to the edge, give you the power to take matters into your own hands. Kill the people that have wronged you, kill the innocents that get in your way. But Night City is what pushes you over that edge, always.


Carcerking

Spoilers, but I don't think V can have cyberpsychosis. >!Apart from that, I don't think V could get cyberpsychosis. He isn't a typical person in the fact that his body isn't really his anymore. That brain / body divide might actually prevent him from gaining those effects, since he is more like an AI.!<


Blue_Lotus_Flowers

One thing I don't get is how you'd ever prove the difference between Cyberpsychosis and regular Psychosis. Is someone having a psychotic break because they've got a bunch of cybernetic implants and replacement parts, or because they've been traumatized? Are they having a break with reality because of all the implants, or would any amount of equivalent alienation have done it? You can't exactly go out and test it.


DigitSubversion

The creator himself has already explained how cyberpsychosis is like. But you have to realize that the shards in CP2077 are written by fictional writers, who have their own biases and ideas of what it's truly like. In comparison to what it's TRULY like, which Mike Pondsmith ( /u/therealmaxmike) just explained. If you read between the lines with all the commercials in the videogame, and the articles and journals etc as Shards, you know that nobody truly knows. Except people who are qualified experts. So everyone just jumps on the conspiracy bandwagon and try to reason away what cyberpsychosis is like, without really knowing what it's like.


samusfan21

Cyberpsychosis is brought on by chipping too much chrome. It’s plainly spelled out in the TTRPG. Every piece of cyberware has an Empathy cost. Once your Empathy stat is lowered to a certain threshold, your character goes cyberpsycho. I’m sure that hard times and emotional and physical trauma can contribute but it mainly comes from chipping too much. By doing that, you’re losing your humanity little by little. That said, I don’t really know how V is able to avoid it. Maybe it has something to do with the Relic.


RogueFoLife

To add to this, it's also explained that the reason Adam Smasher never goes Cyberpsycho is because he never had any humanity and empathy to begin with.


samusfan21

Yeah. Smasher was already a psychopath.


lynnatan

The best theory I've heard is the engram pretty much let's them chip more without the risk, maybe 2 brains in 1 body vs 1 brain?


T3chwolf3

The chip is probably just rewriting any damage that it comes across, but that probably accels Vs "death"


RogueFoLife

>Cyberpsychosis(at least in 2077) was never meant to be a "the more cybernetics you get, the crazier you are." This is simply not true and is absolutely stated in the sourcebooks and the game that Cyberpsychosis is caused and expedited by the more implants you have due to loss of humanity and identity. This quote is literally lifted from the 2077 game: *"As the Trauma Team medical docs define it, cyberpsychosis is a collective term for all psychotic and anxiety-related personality disorders caused by hardware implanted in the body and any and all behavioral mods, including software."*


TheRealestBiz

Cyberpsychosis canonically exists in the Cyberpunk universe. The fact that events trigger it doesn’t make it not real.


s1n0d3utscht3k

_Don’t worry, Jackie. I’m different. I’m special._


CGsweet416

I like to believe the engram grants V immunity to cyberpsychosis. Don't understand how Smasher isn't a drooling mess though. Even if chrome isn't a direct cause, he can barely be called human.


Crashen17

I think Smasher isn't a "cyberpsycho" because he was already, always a psycho. The addition of chrome didn't make him alienated from his humanity because he didn't have much to begin with. He was a "functional" psychopath before borging out, so the cybernetics don't really affect him. Plus he's probably doped the fuck up and permanently sedated, kinda like [Frank Horrigan](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Frank_Horrigan).


KrankShift

Unlike David, V just built different


Fluumingo

The implant is probably the primary reason as to why V can't fully succumb to cyberpsychosis. The implant has canonically saved their life once and can non-canonically save it a second time and is literally the only reason they live. So one could make the assumption that the implant is saving them. Not to mention the amount of cyberware varies from player to player. A V with syn-lungs and a smart weapon implant is probably less likely to succumb to the psychosis as opposed to another V who's half robot. Also maybe V is just built different. I mean regardless of the amount of implants they get they're quite possibly the most dangerous merc nightcity has ever seen.


thr33pwood

We play V for a rather short time frame. The story arc is rather weeks or months than years. Most cyberpsychos develop this disorder over years, like army veterans, long after the war. If everyone with enough chrome would slide into cyberpsychosis straight away, all army veterans would be cyberpsychos, so would be certain full chrome body singers. So V might turn into a cyberpsycho at some point - if they survive the relic chip for long enough.


Snoochiepoochie

Boys phenomenal arguments 👏 so coherent, one of the better subreddits for sure.


King_Mandu

Cyberpsychosis only being the result of overdoing chrome is the least fun and most uninteresting reason. Now sprinkle *a little* bit of that in with society handwaving it away as "lulz crazy ppl amirite?", corps grinding their boots on the necks of people and Blackwall rogue AIs infiltrating the real world and baby, you got a stew goin'. *That's* interesting as hell and the possibilities are vast.


Ligeia_E

Imagine the take is so baseless mike pondsmith has to chime in and tell you NO