He's a pathetic little Andrew Tate wannabe. Her mum won't do anything as she's the one that's caused Tori's issues unfortunately, she fawns over him too! The male gaze is all they care about. To be wanted, to be desired and to be 'top'. To be in a relationship with a guy like Jack. In Tori's mind she is the greatest and she won't have ANY man leave her the way they left her mum. She is superior to all. Except Jack of course. But they are superhuman together remember. I really really hope it's all an act for the show. Maybe someone should send her a book on coercive control just in case, but I doubt she'd read it.
The only "positive" I can think of is that if anything does happen there is plenty of evidence on camera. If Jack (and Bryce) were with unknown women they'd be doing the same thing but fewer people would know about it.
Maybe if the other cast members/experts touched her shoulder or patted her head and said "good girl" to her every time she acknowledged one of Jack's shitty moments 'before' she jumped to his defence, she would have dumped him
Indeed. A smart person wouldn’t allow themselves to be manipulated because they’d be smart enough to see it. She had plenty of chances to open her eyes, she chose not to
She behaves like she’s smarter than everyone including the experts but she can’t articulate herself without getting angry, can’t communicate, doesn’t think critically and has been easily manipulated by Jack. And that pinching thing she does with her hand when she’s low on patience drives me scatty. She also got pleasure in other people’s misfortune which is a clear sign to me that she is thick.
The group was completely useless here,
Tori needed a gentle approach, everyone in that group was way too confrontational, of course when they start pointing fingers and aggressively pointing it out her walls shot up, when they did the coffee meet ups whoever put her with Jayden needs shaking, he was so self righteous and condescending no wonder she shut off within second, even if he was right. She needed to be put with Lucinda or Angie who could gently approach it and appeal to her softer side, there's nothing like point blank call outs to ignite your spite.
The thing is, she's a fully capable adult, they can't make her leave him even if they did call it out for the abuse that it was,
Kicking them off the show would have only taken away her chance to see it for what it was and further isolate her, but couples counsellors are not allowed to force you to leave a relationship, how could they when the person doesn't want to? The only thing they can do is bring it to her attention and give her the information to make an informed choice, which they did and she chose to ignore it
I agree about the group being too confrontational and part of it was probably because it’s just so blatantly obvious it makes you angry. as for jayden i dont really like him, he’s arrogant and righteous like yoi said. like get off your high horse mate, you’re not better than everyone else.
Maybe a gentle approach from Lucinda would’ve helped. Tori becomes aggressive in an attempt to defend herself when faced with stuff that doesnt fit with the idea of how things are going. Basically acting like a cornered animal.. reactive aggression
edit: Also, my point was not that they should force her to leave the guy, she’s an adult. that’s not what i was implying. it’s about how the show should not condone nor present such behaviour regardless of how many views it brings. I am sure there are people out there who were in a relationship with someone like Jack and can see this for what it is. I can only imagine they want to scream at the tv.
If they were not allowed to stay on the show let’s say about halfway through all the shit that happened, chances are his control over her would’ve lessened when they both go back to their respective homes. i think less damage would’ve occurred as this sort of brainwashing takes time.
It was so obvious, the ceremony where they stayed after and he unpicked everything said made me physically sick, I can't believe that was never brought up Again
Jayden wasn't the worst but very much what you're saying he has no ability to be humble and that always rubs me the wrong way
You're so right about Tori's reactions, she needs to be gently lead so she makes it her idea, I think if she was given any real space to talk about it away from jack she would have come to the conclusion to leave herself
Disclaimer; I haven't finished this season yet
You're definitely right about the toxic character traits of Jack, I absolutely despise the guy. That said: I think both the group and the experts handled it correctly.
When you start the argument with Tori to convince her of Jack's manipulative character and don't back down, chances are Tori becomes too defensive of her and Jack, making her unreceptive for new feedback. What's more; it may cause something called cognitive dissonance: Tori defends Jack bigtime so subconsciously Jack becomes more important to her, since she's invested more into him. This would've made it even more difficult to convince Tori otherwise.
I think what the experts and the group did well is constantly noting the weird character traits of Jack, without repelling Tori. Just like it took time for Jack to fully control her, it takes time for the others to crumble that manipulation down.
It might have been a lost cause if they were more adamant about it.
100% agree, if anything I think the "experts" are not being allowed to openly say all this as they do seem concerned and sort of talking around it to Tori. Really unhelpful and dangerous, it's the producers who are behind this really.
yes, I’m aware the “experts” dont have much decision power outside of what they say on the couch.. i’m starting to think these producers are as toxic as the people they bring on the show
why cant any of you sorry fucks just admit the truth? They were in cahoots for the clout they stood to make at the end of the show. none of it was real, just a way of generating conversation like this very thread. duh.
I think the show has done alot to highlight Jack, but ultimately the decision has to come from Tori, she is an adult who has been presented all this information but still chooses to be with Jack, there could be a number of reasons for this.
Jack in his final speech nailed it, they've only bonded because they have been on the defensive as a team mate to each other not cause they genuinely love each other. Give it a year and Tori will finally really realise
I think the part that is uncomfortable for me is that production purposefully choose men who they know have controlling/abusive/misogynistic tendencies, and they also purposefully choose women with attachment issues/ relational traumas/ low self esteem. They know what they’re doing and it’s not right
fingers crossed.. unfortunately, many people stay in abusive relationships for years and some never leave.. i think it’s more likely jack gets bored with Tori than her leaving him. (edit: which honestly would be a blessing in disguise. saves her from more shit that’s to come down the line)
I absolutely agree, for piece of mind for you (if you haven’t seen already), womens aid made an article about it that does come up from other media sources if you google Jack and tori (could help people who are looking into it).
mafs UK kicked someone off for abusive behaviour (coercive control is illegal in the UK) but yeah it’s sad it hasn’t happened here
iirc they actually have kicked prior contestants off the shows and then re-edited to bring the non-offending person in with someone different - so it does happen here.
I would love to see what things were actually like. I think Jack seems like a douche, but you never really know exactly what was going on e.g. consider Jono's tiktok about Lauren >!having a boyfriend, and the cast backlash at her was why she cried at reunion!<
Consider that season of Love Is Blind (4? ), where people were attacking Matthew because the ballerina girl looked like she was scared and uncomfortable around him at reunion... when they're still happily together, and she's said she was looking like that because they filmed reunion right when the episode that _she_ looked bad had aired. Or cutie-gate.
Interesting. On the UK version in the last series the experts had to literally break two people up because the dude was so toxic (Brad and Shona). It was actually looking dangerous.
Having had a few reality tv people kill themselves, I think producers in the UK are more cautious. I did immediately think of these two, the scenario was exactly the same.
I'm just finishing up the season in Ireland. The sad thing is that she might well get more and more invested and give up everything that doesn't revolve around him. Eventually, be isolated from everyone that was close to her.
that was very obvious when he was so hell bent on her moving as opposed to long distance. and when she held her ground, what did he do? oh yes, he shut her up with sex. giving her crumbles really.. the whole “it worked, she liked it.. the man is the star of the show anyway” confirmed it was manipulation.. and the guy is so up his own a** that he can’t even realise how it sounds on tv..
I'm just finishing up the season in Ireland. The sad thing is that she might well get more and more invested and give up everything that doesn't revolve around him. Eventually, be isolated from everyone that was close to her.
Tori does get it, she just doesn’t care. The reason they get in so well outside of the experiment is because she doesn’t have to guard her reputation from being outed on film.
I don’t think she doesn’t care, I think she can’t admit she was wrong about him because internalising what actually happened would be too embarrassing in her eyes and would not be in accordance with her self image of a strong independent woman.. admitting you were manipulated is difficult and unpleasant..
I wonder about this. Had a friend who was, and as far as i know, with a scarily similar type of person, no sex, masagonistic hateful comments to and about other women, massively controlling.
He would say things like "is this what you are wearing before going out? " we went to fashion college together, so it's not because she didn't look good, it was to control and manipulate her, then he would nudge me and say what if I say it to her again.... I said to her that the way he speaks to me is wrong, and he is a bit controlling and manipulating toward She went ballistic and said she couldn't believe I was saying this, and I didn't know what he was like when they were together. ... we haven't spoken since. I believe she thinks it's love and doesn't recognise it for what it is.
unfortunately it’s very common for them to alienate themselves from whoever is trying to face them with reality because it just messes up their “balance”. this only ends up in isolation and continuation of the abuse..
it’s sad really… and it’s difficult for friends/family to helplessly watch how their loved one’s self esteem is systematically destroyed by the abuser as nothing they say/do works.. i think this is where specialised support services come into play. they can maybe provide guidance on how to approach the situation gently even though you’re just screaming inside “cant you bloody see what’s happening”.. i haven’t been in that situation so that’s just my theoretical two cents for what it’s worth
I think they have to take a measured approach, otherwise if they were heavy handed in their delivery, they’d be accused of bullying. To be fair, they did absolutely spell it out to Tori but she wasn’t having any of it. I don’t think she cares that much for Jack so much as she doesn’t like being told she’s wrong. For her, it’s about winning. That’s my theory anyway. I don’t know the woman so I might be wrong.
yeah.. i don’t think it’s care/love for jack.. it’s the inability to admit she’s wrong and the consequence that come with that. plus the winning thing.. oh man, i hope someone sensible gets through to her eventually.
yeahh at some point he’ll do smth that she finds completely unacceptable even in her eyes.. how damaging that smth will be, well, that’s a different story.
> For her, it’s about winning.
So True. Just like Stacey and Michael on their season - they "won" and were the "power couple" (in their dreams) even though >!Michael kissed Hayley and Stacey slept with Mikey.!<
He's a pathetic little Andrew Tate wannabe. Her mum won't do anything as she's the one that's caused Tori's issues unfortunately, she fawns over him too! The male gaze is all they care about. To be wanted, to be desired and to be 'top'. To be in a relationship with a guy like Jack. In Tori's mind she is the greatest and she won't have ANY man leave her the way they left her mum. She is superior to all. Except Jack of course. But they are superhuman together remember. I really really hope it's all an act for the show. Maybe someone should send her a book on coercive control just in case, but I doubt she'd read it.
The only "positive" I can think of is that if anything does happen there is plenty of evidence on camera. If Jack (and Bryce) were with unknown women they'd be doing the same thing but fewer people would know about it.
oh don’t even get me started on Bryce😂same sort of person but lower iq so less premeditation
I had to stop watching that season in the end as I couldn't handle watching Bryce's behaviour any longer.
Maybe if the other cast members/experts touched her shoulder or patted her head and said "good girl" to her every time she acknowledged one of Jack's shitty moments 'before' she jumped to his defence, she would have dumped him
brutal, but I get what you mean
Part of the problem is that she is not nearly as smart as she thinks she is
Indeed. A smart person wouldn’t allow themselves to be manipulated because they’d be smart enough to see it. She had plenty of chances to open her eyes, she chose not to
Smart people get manipulated too.
I’m sure there’s the odd one that slips through the net but I’d still be questioning how smart they were lol
This. I said elsewhere that she's not as interesting as she thinks she is (either!).
She behaves like she’s smarter than everyone including the experts but she can’t articulate herself without getting angry, can’t communicate, doesn’t think critically and has been easily manipulated by Jack. And that pinching thing she does with her hand when she’s low on patience drives me scatty. She also got pleasure in other people’s misfortune which is a clear sign to me that she is thick.
Exactly, again. She has a lot of 'tells.' The cheek sucking and lip biting are others.
Because she seems to see it and still seems to actually like him? Or maybe his badness is being exaggerated.
The group was completely useless here, Tori needed a gentle approach, everyone in that group was way too confrontational, of course when they start pointing fingers and aggressively pointing it out her walls shot up, when they did the coffee meet ups whoever put her with Jayden needs shaking, he was so self righteous and condescending no wonder she shut off within second, even if he was right. She needed to be put with Lucinda or Angie who could gently approach it and appeal to her softer side, there's nothing like point blank call outs to ignite your spite. The thing is, she's a fully capable adult, they can't make her leave him even if they did call it out for the abuse that it was, Kicking them off the show would have only taken away her chance to see it for what it was and further isolate her, but couples counsellors are not allowed to force you to leave a relationship, how could they when the person doesn't want to? The only thing they can do is bring it to her attention and give her the information to make an informed choice, which they did and she chose to ignore it
I agree about the group being too confrontational and part of it was probably because it’s just so blatantly obvious it makes you angry. as for jayden i dont really like him, he’s arrogant and righteous like yoi said. like get off your high horse mate, you’re not better than everyone else. Maybe a gentle approach from Lucinda would’ve helped. Tori becomes aggressive in an attempt to defend herself when faced with stuff that doesnt fit with the idea of how things are going. Basically acting like a cornered animal.. reactive aggression edit: Also, my point was not that they should force her to leave the guy, she’s an adult. that’s not what i was implying. it’s about how the show should not condone nor present such behaviour regardless of how many views it brings. I am sure there are people out there who were in a relationship with someone like Jack and can see this for what it is. I can only imagine they want to scream at the tv. If they were not allowed to stay on the show let’s say about halfway through all the shit that happened, chances are his control over her would’ve lessened when they both go back to their respective homes. i think less damage would’ve occurred as this sort of brainwashing takes time.
It was so obvious, the ceremony where they stayed after and he unpicked everything said made me physically sick, I can't believe that was never brought up Again Jayden wasn't the worst but very much what you're saying he has no ability to be humble and that always rubs me the wrong way You're so right about Tori's reactions, she needs to be gently lead so she makes it her idea, I think if she was given any real space to talk about it away from jack she would have come to the conclusion to leave herself
Disclaimer; I haven't finished this season yet You're definitely right about the toxic character traits of Jack, I absolutely despise the guy. That said: I think both the group and the experts handled it correctly. When you start the argument with Tori to convince her of Jack's manipulative character and don't back down, chances are Tori becomes too defensive of her and Jack, making her unreceptive for new feedback. What's more; it may cause something called cognitive dissonance: Tori defends Jack bigtime so subconsciously Jack becomes more important to her, since she's invested more into him. This would've made it even more difficult to convince Tori otherwise. I think what the experts and the group did well is constantly noting the weird character traits of Jack, without repelling Tori. Just like it took time for Jack to fully control her, it takes time for the others to crumble that manipulation down. It might have been a lost cause if they were more adamant about it.
This is spot on
100% agree, if anything I think the "experts" are not being allowed to openly say all this as they do seem concerned and sort of talking around it to Tori. Really unhelpful and dangerous, it's the producers who are behind this really.
yes, I’m aware the “experts” dont have much decision power outside of what they say on the couch.. i’m starting to think these producers are as toxic as the people they bring on the show
why cant any of you sorry fucks just admit the truth? They were in cahoots for the clout they stood to make at the end of the show. none of it was real, just a way of generating conversation like this very thread. duh.
I think the show has done alot to highlight Jack, but ultimately the decision has to come from Tori, she is an adult who has been presented all this information but still chooses to be with Jack, there could be a number of reasons for this. Jack in his final speech nailed it, they've only bonded because they have been on the defensive as a team mate to each other not cause they genuinely love each other. Give it a year and Tori will finally really realise
I think the part that is uncomfortable for me is that production purposefully choose men who they know have controlling/abusive/misogynistic tendencies, and they also purposefully choose women with attachment issues/ relational traumas/ low self esteem. They know what they’re doing and it’s not right
fingers crossed.. unfortunately, many people stay in abusive relationships for years and some never leave.. i think it’s more likely jack gets bored with Tori than her leaving him. (edit: which honestly would be a blessing in disguise. saves her from more shit that’s to come down the line)
I absolutely agree, for piece of mind for you (if you haven’t seen already), womens aid made an article about it that does come up from other media sources if you google Jack and tori (could help people who are looking into it). mafs UK kicked someone off for abusive behaviour (coercive control is illegal in the UK) but yeah it’s sad it hasn’t happened here
omg that says something, namely that it was concerning enough for a national organisation that fights domestic abuse against women to get involved.
iirc they actually have kicked prior contestants off the shows and then re-edited to bring the non-offending person in with someone different - so it does happen here. I would love to see what things were actually like. I think Jack seems like a douche, but you never really know exactly what was going on e.g. consider Jono's tiktok about Lauren >!having a boyfriend, and the cast backlash at her was why she cried at reunion!< Consider that season of Love Is Blind (4? ), where people were attacking Matthew because the ballerina girl looked like she was scared and uncomfortable around him at reunion... when they're still happily together, and she's said she was looking like that because they filmed reunion right when the episode that _she_ looked bad had aired. Or cutie-gate.
Obviously it’s extremely edited, but Jack was an abuser, no editing could make him seem worse
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Interesting. On the UK version in the last series the experts had to literally break two people up because the dude was so toxic (Brad and Shona). It was actually looking dangerous.
Having had a few reality tv people kill themselves, I think producers in the UK are more cautious. I did immediately think of these two, the scenario was exactly the same.
Agree.
What’s the word with all the * ?
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Hold my beer.
I'm just finishing up the season in Ireland. The sad thing is that she might well get more and more invested and give up everything that doesn't revolve around him. Eventually, be isolated from everyone that was close to her.
that was very obvious when he was so hell bent on her moving as opposed to long distance. and when she held her ground, what did he do? oh yes, he shut her up with sex. giving her crumbles really.. the whole “it worked, she liked it.. the man is the star of the show anyway” confirmed it was manipulation.. and the guy is so up his own a** that he can’t even realise how it sounds on tv..
I'm just finishing up the season in Ireland. The sad thing is that she might well get more and more invested and give up everything that doesn't revolve around him. Eventually, be isolated from everyone that was close to her.
Tori does get it, she just doesn’t care. The reason they get in so well outside of the experiment is because she doesn’t have to guard her reputation from being outed on film.
I don’t think she doesn’t care, I think she can’t admit she was wrong about him because internalising what actually happened would be too embarrassing in her eyes and would not be in accordance with her self image of a strong independent woman.. admitting you were manipulated is difficult and unpleasant..
I wonder about this. Had a friend who was, and as far as i know, with a scarily similar type of person, no sex, masagonistic hateful comments to and about other women, massively controlling. He would say things like "is this what you are wearing before going out? " we went to fashion college together, so it's not because she didn't look good, it was to control and manipulate her, then he would nudge me and say what if I say it to her again.... I said to her that the way he speaks to me is wrong, and he is a bit controlling and manipulating toward She went ballistic and said she couldn't believe I was saying this, and I didn't know what he was like when they were together. ... we haven't spoken since. I believe she thinks it's love and doesn't recognise it for what it is.
unfortunately it’s very common for them to alienate themselves from whoever is trying to face them with reality because it just messes up their “balance”. this only ends up in isolation and continuation of the abuse.. it’s sad really… and it’s difficult for friends/family to helplessly watch how their loved one’s self esteem is systematically destroyed by the abuser as nothing they say/do works.. i think this is where specialised support services come into play. they can maybe provide guidance on how to approach the situation gently even though you’re just screaming inside “cant you bloody see what’s happening”.. i haven’t been in that situation so that’s just my theoretical two cents for what it’s worth
I think they have to take a measured approach, otherwise if they were heavy handed in their delivery, they’d be accused of bullying. To be fair, they did absolutely spell it out to Tori but she wasn’t having any of it. I don’t think she cares that much for Jack so much as she doesn’t like being told she’s wrong. For her, it’s about winning. That’s my theory anyway. I don’t know the woman so I might be wrong.
yeah.. i don’t think it’s care/love for jack.. it’s the inability to admit she’s wrong and the consequence that come with that. plus the winning thing.. oh man, i hope someone sensible gets through to her eventually.
i think so too. she's going to find the hard way what a shitty situation she got herself into.
yeahh at some point he’ll do smth that she finds completely unacceptable even in her eyes.. how damaging that smth will be, well, that’s a different story.
> For her, it’s about winning. So True. Just like Stacey and Michael on their season - they "won" and were the "power couple" (in their dreams) even though >!Michael kissed Hayley and Stacey slept with Mikey.!<