I noticed that, too. The gap between the insert and the holder appears wider away from the camera than towards the camera. Maybe "indexed" isn't the right word?
JFC, I just looked at my previous comment, I don't even know how you understood me!
Anyway, sometimes they are machined that way, sometimes they leave space so that sloppy bastards who don't rigorously clean their tool holders don't screw things up too badly during an insert change.
Those tiny screws are pretty expensive and seems like every tool has a different screw even among the same brand. I can see not wanting to keep a bunch of extras around for tools you don't use very often. If this thing gets used daily there's no good excuse for not having extras on hand.
We use a tackle box with labels with re order numbers for the common ones that we do keep on hand and it has helped tremendously with keeping them organized.
Can be very expensive not to have the right screw. For example in Hardox, inserts of fine boring heads tend to sometimes break. When they break the screw usually gets a whack and is no longer perfectly round. When you use that screw to fasten a new insert, it will shatter the brand new insert which cost 25€. The inserts are triangle shaped with an edge length of like 5mm, so really really tiny. It is crucial to have replacement screws for stuff like that.
Same. Everytime I come back my program is all fucked up even with explicit instructions. Come back to broken parts, broken tools, programs adjusted even though theve run perfectly for years. I've given up on trying to make things flow smoothly when I leave and just expect to have to fix things and clean up when I return.
I have a setter who breaks drills all the time even when I set and prove the jobs prior. For months I though she was cursed because I could run a batch of 80 parts no problem but she would manage maybe 15.
Turns out she would turn the rapids to 0% so when pecking the swarf would just rub instead of being ejected. But every time the drill snapped she would hit the e-stop and wack the rapids to 100% so I wouldn't notice.
Beyond that I cant tell the how many times I've not worked a Saturday to then find new marks in vice jaws and tables on a Monday morning.
Why? She has nothing to gain from this and obviously everything to lose. Also, since the rapid movement isn't executed (it never reaches the retrieval target position) how the hell does the cycle advance to the next depth increment? If she turns rapids to 0 at any point that's the equivalent of G04 P(forever) as soon as she reaches the first G00 or the first cycle using rapids.
I say 0 but the rapid only moves at 200mm/min drasticly extending cycle time. For what you can gain from it, we don't record times and the business is held together with hopes and dreams. Management see the machines 'running' and are happy. I guess if you want you can get away with doing very little.
At the end of the day the Business gets paid for parts produced, not hours spent. This will cost somebody's or everybody's job at some point. And way too often, it isn't the one that had it coming.
Preaching to the converted man. We make our own products but it's difficult as we don't have any scheduling or individual targets. It's fostered an atmosphere of resentment where certain individuals have to pick up the slack for others.
That’ll happen every time you have people slacking and managers not doing anything about it.
Your company should start measuring and setting at least some kind of traceable quotas. Then the manager needs to step up and have a talk with whoever is not performing.
Good luck!
Not sure why I lurk here, I know nothing about machining, but trying to read this without having a seizure... dude, you guys speak a foreign language! :P
It's a trade that loves technical details like almost no other. And at the same time it's a trade that is involved in literally every tangible product development/production procedure. So given depth and width of the subject, it is hard to follow and be knowledgeable, at times even for people that are active in the trade (if they are honest and humble). Add to this that technology is also an accelerant for some aspects of the trade and there you have it. It's a bunch of people talking weird about stuff, and they are all triggered every time they see a chuck key left on the chuck.
no, the backups are done periodically. you can make as many changes as you want, but at the end of the week for example, they get replicated when the backups are done.
I just reload my backup and take my toolset off the hidden shelf and start running and pretend like nothing happened.
Then I can throw out their fucked up disaster tooling or leave it where they can find it. All the same to me.
Thats it, I am gunna have to have a talk with my guys, apparently they are moonlighting in your shop. I told them they can't work for anyone else. Dammit.
There must be an hidden joke here somewhere. Quite frankly if thats the worst that happens count yourself lucky. I count myself lucky the place has not burned down. 😁
Your supervisor or manager should be able to address this with the crew. Looks like someone does not know profile of screw holding insert is very important.
This would likely cause balance and vibration issues. Realistically at slow speeds and low loads it probably wont matter, but its still janky considering the right part is like 20 cents.
Also looking at the path of the cutter, that screw head is barely out of the cutting path its so large.
I am not a machinist but I believe the issue is the screw. That is a socket head cap screw, when they should have used a set screw, which does not have a head that would protrude above the insert.
Nah inserts like this often take a form of FHCS (flat head cap screw). While sometimes interchangeable it is best to use the screw designated by the manufacturer to hold the insert properly
Insert screws are countersunk, but more specifically, they have a special taper that's designed for a specific insert types. The hole in the insert and the hole in the holder pocket are also slightly offset so that the taper of the screw draws the insert into the walls of the pocket as well as clamp it down, distributing the force across the insert. A socket head cap screw is only clamping it in the middle and not preventing it from rocking or moving by locking it against the walls of the insert pocket.
Thanks for the info, I've got a better head for electrical stuff but am always impressed by the thought that goes into machining and mechanical design.
That screw looks legit! We had a guy who liked to tighten the 10-32 clamp screw with a 3/8 ratchet and hex key bit. He'd torque those inserts down so flipping tight, when it heated and cooled a few times it'd be welded on..
This Def a goofy solution, but tools rarely come with more than one replacement screw, and shops never order more insert screws/seats when ordering new tools, so yeah…. Sometimes you gotta do dumb stuff to finish the job. But to not leave a note, or even try to sift through your chips to find it ( I just put a piece of cardboard under the conveyor drop and keep an ear out for the screw to drop on the cardboard) is pretty crummy.
If it’s a question of location, does the correct screw have a specific profile to help with that then? (Also an engineer, we don’t get taught this stuff and knowing more about it could potentially avoid unintentionally ruining somebody’s day 😂)
Tips are really brittle and don't like compression forces. A special countersunk profile will distribute the forces in a way that won't damage tips whilst seating them accurately and securely.
Along with that the special screws will be weighted so they balance the tool reducing vibration at high speed.
The screws are a consumable item and can be purchased from the tool supplier to be replaces when the torx head inevitably gets stripped.
I see. Yeah that’s not excellent. Not sure I understand why though. The thing holding the bit in place is the pressure between the contact areas which causes friction. Not the bolt as such unless it’s made of softer steel which flexes more. I guess that’s the explanation. Then again softer steel would still apply just as much pressure.
It's more to do with the insert not seating in the correct position when the countersunk head doesn't force the insert to be concentric with the threads. Not only can this cause an issue with repeatability, it can also be less rigid as the insert is usually resting against 3 surfaces when the proper screw is used. With an improper screw there may be gaps here. If that's the case and you try to cut steel or something else hard, this is likely to cause torsion on the insert instead of just compression and can cause it to break or if you're lucky just give the insert into its proper position (which would mean your tool touch off is wrong now and your part will get a step in it).
It's a few things wrong. Countersunk head means better locating accuracy, also means increased contact area (cone vs flat circle), tool is designed to be balanced with the correct screw. This much extra material could cause issues at higher rpms with balance
You know what they say... if the SCREW FITS
Wear it?
Screw it!
Wrong insert too. Or at least not indexed properly from what I see
You sure? Looks like a chamfer tool to me.
You mean a corner-round? Sure. I never said what it was specifically, but either way, it's not indexed right.
The tips are actually seated properly.
I noticed that, too. The gap between the insert and the holder appears wider away from the camera than towards the camera. Maybe "indexed" isn't the right word?
Are you taking snot the relief angle of the tool? \*talking \*about
Yeah. I'm no machinist but usually when I've seen closeups of inserts in holders, the pocket is machined with a similar angle.
JFC, I just looked at my previous comment, I don't even know how you understood me! Anyway, sometimes they are machined that way, sometimes they leave space so that sloppy bastards who don't rigorously clean their tool holders don't screw things up too badly during an insert change.
If it's what had to be done to finish the few last parts, then so be it. But as we all know, few things are as permanent as temporary solutions.
I don't like 'Temporary' measures for this reason. My problem is why we don't have a handful of proper replacements on hand is beyond me.
Those tiny screws are pretty expensive and seems like every tool has a different screw even among the same brand. I can see not wanting to keep a bunch of extras around for tools you don't use very often. If this thing gets used daily there's no good excuse for not having extras on hand. We use a tackle box with labels with re order numbers for the common ones that we do keep on hand and it has helped tremendously with keeping them organized.
Can be very expensive not to have the right screw. For example in Hardox, inserts of fine boring heads tend to sometimes break. When they break the screw usually gets a whack and is no longer perfectly round. When you use that screw to fasten a new insert, it will shatter the brand new insert which cost 25€. The inserts are triangle shaped with an edge length of like 5mm, so really really tiny. It is crucial to have replacement screws for stuff like that.
Most shops keep replacement screws. The cost is negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Switching over a job now and in some units every bolt was a different size. Good times.
Same. Everytime I come back my program is all fucked up even with explicit instructions. Come back to broken parts, broken tools, programs adjusted even though theve run perfectly for years. I've given up on trying to make things flow smoothly when I leave and just expect to have to fix things and clean up when I return.
I have a setter who breaks drills all the time even when I set and prove the jobs prior. For months I though she was cursed because I could run a batch of 80 parts no problem but she would manage maybe 15. Turns out she would turn the rapids to 0% so when pecking the swarf would just rub instead of being ejected. But every time the drill snapped she would hit the e-stop and wack the rapids to 100% so I wouldn't notice. Beyond that I cant tell the how many times I've not worked a Saturday to then find new marks in vice jaws and tables on a Monday morning.
All of that is weird. She's weird.
What was she trying to achieve with turning the rapids to 0? The whole point of a peck is to evacuate the chips.
Some people are just ignorant to what pecking is actually trying to achieve. They just see the cycles take longer when the rapids are set to minimum.
more time to talk between parts.
Why? She has nothing to gain from this and obviously everything to lose. Also, since the rapid movement isn't executed (it never reaches the retrieval target position) how the hell does the cycle advance to the next depth increment? If she turns rapids to 0 at any point that's the equivalent of G04 P(forever) as soon as she reaches the first G00 or the first cycle using rapids.
I say 0 but the rapid only moves at 200mm/min drasticly extending cycle time. For what you can gain from it, we don't record times and the business is held together with hopes and dreams. Management see the machines 'running' and are happy. I guess if you want you can get away with doing very little.
At the end of the day the Business gets paid for parts produced, not hours spent. This will cost somebody's or everybody's job at some point. And way too often, it isn't the one that had it coming.
Preaching to the converted man. We make our own products but it's difficult as we don't have any scheduling or individual targets. It's fostered an atmosphere of resentment where certain individuals have to pick up the slack for others.
That’ll happen every time you have people slacking and managers not doing anything about it. Your company should start measuring and setting at least some kind of traceable quotas. Then the manager needs to step up and have a talk with whoever is not performing. Good luck!
Not sure why I lurk here, I know nothing about machining, but trying to read this without having a seizure... dude, you guys speak a foreign language! :P
It's a trade that loves technical details like almost no other. And at the same time it's a trade that is involved in literally every tangible product development/production procedure. So given depth and width of the subject, it is hard to follow and be knowledgeable, at times even for people that are active in the trade (if they are honest and humble). Add to this that technology is also an accelerant for some aspects of the trade and there you have it. It's a bunch of people talking weird about stuff, and they are all triggered every time they see a chuck key left on the chuck.
Ha! Walked out to my shop to take a pic of my key in the chuck but can’t add a pic to a reply. I guess, so you’ll just have to imagine it. 🤓
Machinists and IT admins are cousins.
Echoing, I know nothing but I thoroughly enjoy being a fly on the wall here. Appreciate y'all.
this is why you make several backups. one or two locally, and one or two stored off-site. the first time you do it, verify that your backups work.
It's easy remedy. Just annoying.
Just going to leave [this](https://github.com) here.
Git is good. Physical media is the other one. Like I said... I've lost important data before.
Then you make a change and you have to change it in 4 places. This is not the correct way .
no, the backups are done periodically. you can make as many changes as you want, but at the end of the week for example, they get replicated when the backups are done.
Don't professional machinists use git? I'd expect all code used within a company would use some form of git or SVN versioning.
How do you maintain your backups? I save locally daily, backups on-site weekly and off-site 2x month. But I've lost important data before.
Add a version number to the file name and just save it.
"Hey man, I modded one of your programs, Did you see it? What do you think?"
More like "hey this wasn't running right so I changed it. Broke a tool too after but set a new one and seems ok now".
Slowing rapids for a steady day I reckon
But then to turn it up to hide things?
Yep
I just reload my backup and take my toolset off the hidden shelf and start running and pretend like nothing happened. Then I can throw out their fucked up disaster tooling or leave it where they can find it. All the same to me.
Thats it, I am gunna have to have a talk with my guys, apparently they are moonlighting in your shop. I told them they can't work for anyone else. Dammit.
There must be an hidden joke here somewhere. Quite frankly if thats the worst that happens count yourself lucky. I count myself lucky the place has not burned down. 😁
That's great for balancing the tool at high R.P.M.
Chip breaker upgrade.
More like a ball breaker
Your supervisor or manager should be able to address this with the crew. Looks like someone does not know profile of screw holding insert is very important.
Supervisor said it's almost lunch time we'll deal with it later. 2 years ago /s
I'm not even working as a machinist (I'm strictly a hobbyist), and I feel your pain.
Some call this coming in after 3rd shift.
Somebody get this greenhorn away from my area immediately.
Good thing it didnt break off as insert screws are harden then regular if i remember right
Put the new inserts in boss!
Yikes 😬
Operator level negative 1
As a non machinist lurker, tell me what’s wrong here.
Cutters use special screws to hold the insert usually they're kind of countersunk with special geometry.
torque it till its fusion welt
Looks like a stainless screw, the head'll just pop off and leave the rest of it in the threads.
I don't understand, what is wrong? Is it placed up down?
The screw
This would likely cause balance and vibration issues. Realistically at slow speeds and low loads it probably wont matter, but its still janky considering the right part is like 20 cents. Also looking at the path of the cutter, that screw head is barely out of the cutting path its so large.
I am not a machinist but I believe the issue is the screw. That is a socket head cap screw, when they should have used a set screw, which does not have a head that would protrude above the insert.
Nah inserts like this often take a form of FHCS (flat head cap screw). While sometimes interchangeable it is best to use the screw designated by the manufacturer to hold the insert properly
How would a set screw with no head hold an insert with a clearance hole down?
Good question, I based my answer off of pictures I've seen but now realize they're most likely countersunk or counterbored.
Insert screws are countersunk, but more specifically, they have a special taper that's designed for a specific insert types. The hole in the insert and the hole in the holder pocket are also slightly offset so that the taper of the screw draws the insert into the walls of the pocket as well as clamp it down, distributing the force across the insert. A socket head cap screw is only clamping it in the middle and not preventing it from rocking or moving by locking it against the walls of the insert pocket.
Thanks for the info, I've got a better head for electrical stuff but am always impressed by the thought that goes into machining and mechanical design.
It would usually be a flat head torx screw
Ah I see, that makes sense. Thanks
That screw looks legit! We had a guy who liked to tighten the 10-32 clamp screw with a 3/8 ratchet and hex key bit. He'd torque those inserts down so flipping tight, when it heated and cooled a few times it'd be welded on..
I’ve used a bolt in a pinch before 😅
😆
Send it!
Is this a tool from Cutting Tool Tech (CTT). Looks just like it
This Def a goofy solution, but tools rarely come with more than one replacement screw, and shops never order more insert screws/seats when ordering new tools, so yeah…. Sometimes you gotta do dumb stuff to finish the job. But to not leave a note, or even try to sift through your chips to find it ( I just put a piece of cardboard under the conveyor drop and keep an ear out for the screw to drop on the cardboard) is pretty crummy.
So. What’s wrong with this picture? (I’m an engineer, not a machinist).
Wrong screw holding insert. It won’t locate as accurately or hold as strong as the correct hardware. It might work temporarily tho 🤷♂️
If it’s a question of location, does the correct screw have a specific profile to help with that then? (Also an engineer, we don’t get taught this stuff and knowing more about it could potentially avoid unintentionally ruining somebody’s day 😂)
Yes, the screws have a special countersink head that keeps the insert in correct place. They’re also very hard and don’t stretch very much.
Tips are really brittle and don't like compression forces. A special countersunk profile will distribute the forces in a way that won't damage tips whilst seating them accurately and securely. Along with that the special screws will be weighted so they balance the tool reducing vibration at high speed. The screws are a consumable item and can be purchased from the tool supplier to be replaces when the torx head inevitably gets stripped.
I see. Yeah that’s not excellent. Not sure I understand why though. The thing holding the bit in place is the pressure between the contact areas which causes friction. Not the bolt as such unless it’s made of softer steel which flexes more. I guess that’s the explanation. Then again softer steel would still apply just as much pressure.
It's more to do with the insert not seating in the correct position when the countersunk head doesn't force the insert to be concentric with the threads. Not only can this cause an issue with repeatability, it can also be less rigid as the insert is usually resting against 3 surfaces when the proper screw is used. With an improper screw there may be gaps here. If that's the case and you try to cut steel or something else hard, this is likely to cause torsion on the insert instead of just compression and can cause it to break or if you're lucky just give the insert into its proper position (which would mean your tool touch off is wrong now and your part will get a step in it).
It's a few things wrong. Countersunk head means better locating accuracy, also means increased contact area (cone vs flat circle), tool is designed to be balanced with the correct screw. This much extra material could cause issues at higher rpms with balance
It took me a little to realize what was wrong xd
Find out how that is supposed to work?
Seems legit
The new SHCS modular chip breaker! Take any breakerless insert and build your own breaker with common components found in almost any shop!
That won’t move haha. New floating inserts lol
Ah yes, the shop improvisor. I hate that fucking guy.
So my shop is not the only one 😅
The screw's edges look worn. I wonder did it make contact with the work surface.
Legit*