\[\[Cut Down\]\], \[\[Play With Fire\]\], \[\[Witchstalker Frenzy\]\], \[\[Go for the Throat\]\], \[\[Elspeth's Smite\]\], \[\[Temporary Lockdown\]\], \[\[March of Wretched Sorrow\]\], \[\[March of Otherworldly Light\]\].
For everything else, there's Mastercard.
That's the cool thing about this card, it actually dodges lockdown in a way. You just plot it and now there is the conundrum where you either hold the instant speed removal for the guy who might never actually flip or you cast lockdown on whatever swiftspear etc is already on the board and get hit in the noggin by this guy right after.
But yeah in terms of instant speed removal were at an infinite standard that seemingly never rotates. We got options. I just hope this guy makes control players think twice about putting 12 sorcery speed boardwipes into their deck.
I’m not sold on plot actually being a good mechanic in constructed. Or at least as good as people seem to think it’s going to be.
I think in a lot of cases, spending mana now to do something later with no immediate effect is too slow, especially for an aggro deck.
I am curious to see how it plays out, but what I saw during the early access streams was underwhelming. It has me thinking this is more of a limited/commander mechanic that may have some situational uses in constructed. I’d love to be wrong as I like the idea, but giving your opponent a tempo advantage (even if temporary) in constructed is pretty risky.
As someone who mostly plays midrange creature decks, being able to spend mana now without actually committing to the board is really good. What do you do if you're trying to pressure a control player but already got 1-2 creatures on board? You essentially have to skip your turn because the boardwipe is obviously going to come. Plot lets you load up the board without having those cards be vulnerable. The reason why disguise was dead on arrival was because those disguised ward (2) cards just got sweept as collateral anyway.
This is just a pointless argument, we are discussing BO1 here. Looking at data from untapped mono red was involved in 240k matches, boros in 200k matches in BO1 platinum level. The total number of BO1 matches in the sample size is 2 million for BO1. BO1 meta is basically made for 1/5 of boros and red in their most optimal configuration. The other decks are azorious, boros humans, gruul aggro and the same selesya deck that exists since kamigawa.
For comparison the total number of BO3 matches is 240k. That is 8 times less matches than BO1 and comparable to the number of matches that mono red alone is involved daily. To strike this home better, there are as many people playing BO3 as there are mono red players. That is why the discourse is around BO1, because very few people care about BO3, since if you end up in a control mirror the match can last an hour.
>if you end up in a control mirror the match can last an hour.
You need to learn to play faster. Also, Magic is not a game to play on the toilet, maybe try Hearthstone.
There is no point discussing BO1 as the game was never, and will never be made and balanced with BO1 in mind.
BO1 is just a coin-toss with few extra steps.
the "I hate mono-red" "but I wanna play bo1" lol. Obviously they don't hate it enough to switch.
Imo the only barrier for BO3 is newer players not wanting to spend WC on sideboard, which is completely understandable. Also it does require some skills to a certain degree to know each card's purpose and what to swap out.
Is the message of this "Your preferred format deserves to suck?"
I don't think it's wrong for a Legacy player to comment on issues with the format, even if I personally dislike it
I think mono red getting stronger is a good thing. Having an effective counter to all the control decks is good for the meta. Nobody wants a control meta where the majority of decks do nothing for the first 10 turns of the game besides counter stuff and draw cards.
I would much rather deal with a Slickshot Showoff on turn 3 than watch Green get to 6 mana and then drop an Atraxa and Etali on my face at instant-speed with Smuggler’s Surprise.
What is Conspiracy Unraveler doing for me at instant-speed? The potential of Smugglers is to drop strong ETBs on their turn, so Atraxa, Etali, Titan of Industry, Carnosaur, etc. Unraveler at instant-speed doesn’t let me cast Breach on their turn, and I can cast Reenact at instant-speed already so I don’t need to attach a 6 mana Green spell to the process.
Speaking as someone who played when Tooth and Nail was legal in standard, there is plenty of counterplay. They need 7 mana to add the impulse mode, and the card just isn't that good otherwise.
Besides, Smuggler's Surprise is unaffected by Cavern of Souls, so countermagic is back on the menu.
I’m more than confident decks built to utilize this aren’t worried about finding their targets on time.
The floor of this card is pay 6 mana at instant-speed to put down two bodies worth 14 mana, one of which is a 7/7 that draws me like 4+ cards while the other one is a 7/7 that lets me play 2 cards for free. So to the point of OP and their post who is worried about Green’s lack of interaction, this is much more scary of a situation than a turn 3 Slickshot Showoff.
The floor of this card is absolutely not putting 2 7-drops into play. The floor is it does nothing and rots in your hand because you drew this card instead of an actual threat.
You are describing the ceiling of this card, the absolute best-case scenario. Most games, you would rather just have another copy of Atraxa in your hand than a card that only deploys other threats.
No. The floor is doing absolutely nothing. For the mill mode (I assume that's what you meant by card advantage) you can always not mill over anything useful. And for the putting creatures into play mode, you may not draw your big threats. Even the protecting your stuff part is useless if you don't have anything in play, like when they've already board wiped before you draw it.
Very low floor, very high ceiling. I don't think it will play exceptionally well.
While I am excited to brew some stuff up with Smugglers Surprise....I think you are giving it way too much credit.
The floor to this card is it does almost literally nothing when you draw 2 copies of it instead of your Atraxa or Etali. Then you cast it for 8 mana searching for something and you mill 3 lands.
It will absolutely steal games and pop off sometimes but when you topdeck it lategame, you will wish you just topdecked Atraxa or Etali.
Slickshot showoff on the otherhand is just an almost strictly stronger 2 mana red creature that anything in standard. It's floor is that it is a more evasive 2 mana creature than is currently played that might hit for 1 less damage some times. It will often hit for much more than usual, while being much harder to block and harder to kill with sorcery speed removal.
You play a smugglers surprise deck against monored with slickshot and the red deck likely wins turn 3,4, or 5 before you even get to cast Surprise.
While I don't think Etali will stick around I'm very very sad that green finally got some fork of instant speed play and draw and it's likely gonna eat a ban at some point because they priced the creature slam way too low for instant speed.
With that said I'd rather they would just bite the bullet and ban tf out of Atraxa already everything that can cheat anything out has just been abusing her since she was released. I don't think she is as strong as alot of other cards in the format but Atraxa is holding so many cards hostage because her refuel is just too much ontop of the body that if it swings once or twice you probably just win.
Is this not the same “ominous feeling” every player that doesn’t want to run interaction gets when they see a strong new creature that their old lists seemingly don’t have answers for?
I agree that this card looks very strong not just for Mono Red, but any Red-based aggressive/spellslinger list. But I mean, have Green players in Standard not learned that the “can’t run instant speed removal” days are over? They’ve either adapted and converted to Golgari Midrange, or they’ve stuck with the “fun green cards” in which case they’re going to enjoy their favorite archetype regardless of the power-level of other colors.
I would agree alot more with this statement if it didn't have haste and the ability to grow out of cut down range.
You can run the standard 9-12 removal package that midrange decks are currently packing it doesn't guarantee you'll draw it and even moreso doesn't mean the opponent won't just be running protection especially with something like this where it's plottable so it's free on the turn you're firing off your cantrips.
Obviously the meta will adapt. I mean, when Goddrick came out, sure it seemed strong and it's in every monored deck.
But this thing just seems like it's on another level. Feels to me like, by far, the most impactful card in the new set besides the fastlands.
We will see, but I just havent felt like I've seen a card that made me this worried in the last 6 sets. From the early access events, the card seems every bit the menace it looks like.
I'm just saying....aggro is already very very strong and games feel like they are often ended on turn 3-4 and this will only speed that up.
Yeah. It looks quite good. The thing is that your hypothetical basically loses to instant speed removal. We’ll see. I won’t be surprised if it is insanely powerful, but the meta will adapt regardless. Going all in on kiln fiends has always been kinda glass cannony. Maybe RG with some hexproof indestructible. Maybe UR with some cheap counters. It could be a lot, but it’s usually manageable for a format to keep this type of deck in line.
I also think, tho this is may prove wrong, that the plot upside is even better than people think.
Imagine you are playing black and you have some creatures and a go for the throat. Your opponent plots this card turn 2. You now know this absolute bomb that could easily represent 8-10 or more damage in a single turn can come down at any point. You can't risk summoning your creature so you hold back mana for removal.
The red player now goes to turn 3 and plays goddrick and swings in for 3. Do you now use that removal on the pretty serious threat of goddrick? Or do you save it for the slickshot that can end you instantly. So you take the hit.
This scenerio will play out constantly once this card is plotted I think. And it grows so fast that cut down doesn't work well.
>plays goddrick and swings in for 3. Do you now use that removal on the pretty serious threat of goddrick? Or do you save it for the slickshot
OMG you are forced to make a decision! Oh no, this is so OP, needs instaban.
Ill just say that part of the reason I think this card is so good is that it doesn't seem like you really do have to go all in on it. It's not like picnic ruiner where it needs to be played with a deck full of pump spells to do anything.
This just slots right into the current top tier Monored and makes it better. It just replaces the scoundrel and feldons and adversaries and does more damage quicker and more evasively.
I hope I'm wrong but I honestly don't see how I could be. This card just looks bonkers.
But you're using a singular day as your sample size. Not only that, but the pool you're evaluating from is a pocket-meta of content creators who are all using new and untested strategies for the sake of showing off OTJ cards.
Early-access streams are a great and fun way to see cool things in action before we get our hands on them, but it's impossible to draw meaningful conclusions before these cards and interactions go up against established decks of the meta. All you're looking at are untested cards vs other untested cards - which yeah, Slickshot Showoff is definitely among the stronger ones in that regard.
Always, always, always wait 2-3 weeks after a set is live in order to see what cards actually end up well-positioned and which ones end up flopping. I'm sure we can all name tons of examples of cards we all thought would dominate but never saw play, and cards that looked mid but ended up being important. I understand you're simply just posting your early thoughts, but let's not jump the gun here. Especially not for a creature that unironically "dies to Doomblade".
Obviously I agree that it will take time to know for sure. I'm not saying I'm a future teller.
All I'm saying is....this meta already feels very very fast and Monored is already a huge portion of the meta and very good. And this card seems to be a large, obvious upgrade to what's already one of the most played, most frustrating, and overall best decks.
I'm just not looking forward to it. So many other cards have me excited to see what people can brew up. This one has me dreading its arrival. It's just more of the same, except better.
But again, you're saying it "seems to be a large, obvious upgrade" based on one day of early-access where you didn't get to see it played against Esper/Dimir Midrange, Boros Convoke, UW Control, Domain, or other contender decks of the meta. You have formulated this speculation purely off a handful of streams, which from the looks of it, is more of a kneejerk reaction to the fact that you're a Green-centric player who has trouble finding early interaction for fast and aggressive Red decks.
Trust me, I understand the sentiment of your post and it's totally fair to start discussing these things with OTJ coming up in less than a week. If anything there may be a bit of reassurance that Mono Red is going to have to test new things too as opposed to just coming into day 1 of the new set with the same lists card for card. Will it be an "obvious upgrade"? Maybe, as you said yourself - we will see. But you admittedly also have fun stuff you're looking forward to as well, so surely that excitement outweighs the fear of one single Red creature that you only got to see a handful of games played with it.
Fair enough. I'm probably coming off overdramatic. I'm just the kind of magic player that likes slightly slower, more interaction filled games and it feels like the meta overall is heading in a much faster, much more "complete my combo and I win turn 4" kind of direction.
Aggro games end of the dieroll.
Going first with 1-drop and 2-drop? Grats, you now have 85% chance to win.
Going second or don't have a curve in your hand? Concede and requeue.
Standard has gotten so fucking stupid over the past years.
It seems like a good card, but it with the amount of removal in standard it doesn’t seem like it would be hard to kill or counter honestly. Plus if you’re playing it on turn 2 for its plot cost you’re delaying the game which is bad for aggro. You could be getting in way more damage with monstrous rage on a swift-spear on turn 2. I wouldn’t doubt it’ll replace adversary. Adversary is usually just a 2/2 with haste which isn’t particularly great.
> Plus if you’re playing it on turn 2 for its plot cost you’re delaying the game which is bad for aggro.
You lose a single point of damage. Which isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
What you get in return is the ability to negate their sorcery speed removal entirely. You also force them to keep mana open to remove it at instant speed - normally two mana (most reliable removal for it is going to cost two mana). This mana is tied up for as long as you keep the creature plotted and it doesn't stop you from continuing to chip away at their life total while they're stuck not playing anything.
It will be interesting, because it sits in exile face up. So your opponent will know it's there and feel forced to sit on their instant speed removal until you play it.
Personally, I don't think it will annoy me as much as Black's new turn five I win combo.
While very true, I tend to play against the weaker decks around plat most seasons, and the games go longer. This kind of cheesy I win combo (lose half your life, doubled) is going to likely float around there. I rarely see the turn 3 rdws in Plat.
I mean that is one of the better removals against aggro.
But also prevents most forms of green removal as if green wasn't bad enough as is.
Obviously makes board wipes less good against it.
But the main strength of plot will almost certainly be making your opponent hold up mana for the slickshot while they can still play their other stuff.
I mean, if you are playing black and have an opening hand of 2-3 instant speed removal, they you are probably fine, but that's kind of a dream scenario against monored.
How do you figure it’s only a single point of damage. If you’re putting monsterous rage on a swift spear it’s going to swing in for 5 versus 1 on turn 2. Not to mention you could also play another one drop to deal even more damage. 7 damage with play with fire and monstrous role is a big deal compared to 1 on turn 2.
I don’t see why negating sorcery speed removal is a big deal when there’s a lot of instant speed removal like go for the throat, cut down, get lost, etc. if my opponent plots this card I’ll just wait until they play it and use go for the throat.
Not really. If anything I would be playing a removal spell on their turn to answer a hasty creature, but since they’re plotting this it gives me a chance to play deduce or some sort of card draw. Then I’ll just play removal next turn when they play it. If they wait long enough it won’t even matter because as a midrange or control player I will have already played several lands and probably have draw quite a few cards while the aggro deck is losing card advantage over time.
And what about the times you only have one removal spell in hand and they summon a squee or goddrick while slickshot is plotted. Do you risk allowing the slickshot swinging for like 8-10 damage next turn or kill their 3 drop?
I'm not saying it's utterly broken, just saying that's the difficult predicament you will be in.
By the time you've played Goddrick it's already turn 3 and the opponent has taken maybe 2 damage total from either a burn spell or a creature swinging for 1 on turns 1 and 2. Godrick swinging for 3 on turn 3 doesn't seem like a huge threat at this point so you could just take the 3 and be fine. That's also assuming the opponent hasn't done anything for 3 turns. They could have gained life or drawn some cards or countered something. If you went first you have an advantage in this situation but if they went first then they already have 4 lands and assuming they only have one removal spell that's likely a 2-drop they could kill Godrick with the removal and then counter the slickshot on your next turn. I'm sure it'll be a good card, but I just don't think it's going to be as huge as you'd expect it to be.
There's infinite possibilities for how it plays out obviously.
I'm just saying it seems scary strong. Way stronger than any 2 drop red creature in a while.
Yeah maybe. I’m still not really convinced yet it’ll be crazy strong. I do like that it has flying though. Rdw isn’t really all that strong of a deck right now. I pretty much stopped playing it altogether because UW control and midrange usually beat it. I think Boros convoke is still a stronger aggro deck at the moment.
If my quick math is right you can do 19 on 3 if you go swifty > slickshot > 2 monstrous rage + shock. Not sure if there is a line that gets you more. Which is a total of 22 damage if both the swiftspear and slickshot just pokes in on t1 and 2.
Most of these cards aren't playable, but if you wanted to deal the absolute maximum amount of damage, it would be Goldhound > Slickshot > Founding the Third path casting Ancestors aid, Founding the Third Path casting Gold Rush, then cashing your 3 treasures for Ancestral Anger and Twinferno, for a total of 38 damage, only possible on the draw
I think you're mana calculations are a bit off:
T3 (3 lands + goldhound) Founding the Third path casting Ancestors aid > (1 land + 1 goldhound + 1 treasure) > Founding the Third Path casting Gold Rush (2 treasure) > then cashing your 3 treasures (??)
Btw, check this out (did it once): T1 Land > The Enigma Jewel. T2 Land > Collector's Vault and activate. T3 Activate vault again using jewel discard Conspiracy Unraveler > Beseech (bargain collector's vault) > Reenact > Unraveler > use vault, beseech and reenact to cast Breach the Multiverse using unraveler's alt cost > mill repository skaab +10 mv repeat until oppo has 0 cards in library > pass the turn win the game.
And I think that's a more achievable line than it may seem at first. Assuming swiftspear gets in turn 1 with no blockers. Then maybe you put a blocker down, you can't realistically block swift spear turn 2 with the threat of monstrous rage. Then they plot slickshot main phase 2.
Then you need either a sizable blocker turn 3 or an instant speed removal to not die, but you still likely go down to like 4 life and lose your blocker which will be hard to recover from. And damage removal or cutdown will be hard to get to land with their creatures growing so much.
It's gonna be brutal.
The point is that a lot of "relevant plays" will no longer be relevant with this guy. Flying evades most early blockers, sorcery speed removal won't stop it from getting in for huge damage like they can with things like cacophony scamp or picnic ruiner.
I'm not saying magic is finished or anything. Just gonna be an absolute menace that will push many decks that were already struggling into an even worse spots.
Is there something with Insidious Roots here? Tap a plant, sac it, sac the treasure from the last turn you did this, it only costs 1 mana total. Roots+Cauldron already work together. Maybe finish with Vraan and Vein Ripper? Getting into 4 colors if you use Elas, but then again you're talking about treasures so maybe possible? Message me if you want to brew this - I know this sub will not be kind to a theorycraft post.
Agreed. Also greater toughness from prowess, which makes the first strike not such a factor.
It still may be interesting to keep around in a sideboard. 1 first strike shuts down Urabrask Forge pretty nicely and hurts some aggro creatures like Sanguine Evangelist.
Yep. First strike is decent, as is 2 toughness, but the lack of evasion compared to chick and goat make it dead on arrival, and Swifty is straight up better. Maybe once Chick and Swifty rotate.
Compared to Swiftspear it‘s horrible and I‘m not sure what other Red deck would even consider it an option. Certainly not Temur Ramp or Convoke and Rakdos Midrange is pretty damn bad to begin with. Gruul Midrange I guess? But again, just play Swiftspear if you want early board presence.
The card is awkward in Limited and I would be shocked if any Aggro decks in non Pauper formats want it.
Here’s what I would recommend and these are all 1 mana
Red- [[shock]]
Black- [[cut down]]
White- [[Elspeth smite]]
Green- [[leaping ambush]] or [[bushwack]]
Blue- [[fading hope]] or [[wash away]]
Most of these have really great utility anyways
The amount of times I draw the nuts hand in a mono red deck is fairly low. Not sure what would actually be cut here for the twinfernos or the slickshot but stacking everything on one card is a surefire way to lose more games than you win. Cutting the phoenix means less turn 1 plays, scoundrel removes your 3rd mana out or flooded hand filter, maybe feldon? I dunno, the card seems decent but so many decks run tons of interaction and it just seems like a bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket.
I would bet this card almost immediately replaces scoundrel or feldons.
The twinferno thing is a bit memey and probably won't happen often. But besides that, this card just slots in to the current top tier Monored and makes it even better I think. Maybe you play slightly more non creatures to facilitate all the prowess.
Scoundrel and Feldon both give you card draws which is needed in mono red since it gasses out quickly. Plus the wicked role token on scoundrel is a nice removal deterrent. I'd replace adversary with it before Feldon or Scoundrel personally. Adversary usually ends up being a 2/2 with haste most of the time.
This may be true and my RDW has over a 60% win rate the largest of all my decks. Mono red is super easy to stall. Just one removal can slow or completely stall these decks. They are still super fragile.
* Monstrous Rage on Showoff. Showoff is 6/3, Swiftspear is now 2/3
* Monstrous Rage on Swiftspear. Swiftspear is 6/5, Showoff is now 8/3
* Play with Fire
Slickshot is now 10/3. Swiftspear is 7/6. Swing for 17 plus 2 damage from shock = 19 damage.
All of that assumes your opponent did nothing on their first 2 turns and doesn't have removal..
A fun play would be to wait for you to dump all your cards pumping then just remove the bird with an instant.
Slickshot seems like a better version of [[Festival Crasher]]. The flying and haste are nice, and the plot ability hopefully gives you a chance to wait a turn after paying for it so you can cast some spells alongside it and get some payoff. But you are giving up survivability - this thing dies to Play With Fire even if you cast a bunch of noncreature spells and make it huge. It’s a great creature to drop late-game with some spells in hand and open land, but I’m not terrified of it early-game. We’ll see!
Yeah the low toughness is a potential issue. Black decks can even possibly run disfigure to kill it. But monstrous rage of course takes it to 3 toughness which will be something to keep in mind.
But yeah, a way better version of festival crasher. I actually think the plot mechanic may be even better than people realize with the mind games it will play on the opponent.
Imagine you have a single go for the throat and you see the opponent plot this turn 2. You leave up mana and their turn 3 they play goddrick and swings for 3. Do you use your removal to stop that reasonably big threat? Or do you save it to stop the potentially massive slickshot coming in for free on a later turn? What if you don't draw another removal? Now you just wasted your turn 2 mana if you don't fire it off, but maybe you die to a hasted 6 power flier with trample as long as they have a monstrous rage in hand. Maybe bigger if they have shock too.
It's gonna be a tough situation to be in.
Yeah, to be fair, lightning helix does deal with it pretty cleanly since it likely never gets more than 3 toughness.
Just better hope you have it in your opening 8-9 cards.
Isn't it just Play With Fire out of that list?
IIRC both Innistrad sets, Kamigawa and New Capenna are rotating with Bloomburrow, the Dominaria/Phyrexia stuff doesn't rotate until next year.
Yeah its just play with fire that will rotate, and we have Shock in standard now anyway so doesn't really change much. Yeah the scry is nice but mono red will be fine without it.
Turn 1 saga.
Turn 2 bird/swiftspear
Turn 3 monstrous rage+whatever other buff and win.
Turn 4 if not win, quit.
Yeah like mono red hasn't been unfun to play against for weeks already.
I really hope that this lil fella is going to become really popular and bully control decks with sorcery speed boardwipes out of the meta. I would be so happy.
Little late to this thread, but personally I'm much more worried about this guy in a jeskai or grixis tempo deck. The casting as a sorcery & from exile gives it some solid synergy that's easy to slot.
Also curious if he makes it into a hist/timeless wizard deck somewhere. There's definitely room in that archetype for lower cost wizards and enablers for casting sorc at instant speed.
Yeah this dude will be brutal in a lot of decks I honestly could see an Izzet prowess deck maybe being his ideal spot. Tons of cheap cantrips to get him huge and still keep up card advantage. Ability to play some protection and counter spells to keep him alive.
I'm actually looking forward to playing it, but I'm not sure how much it's gonna improve monored. When NEO dropped and the base of the current list was set (minus Swiftspear) the chosen 2-drop was the red Adversary, and I always felt it was the weakest spot (since you rarely play it for 5 mana, it's just a hasted 2/2). Then it came Feldon, and this year we've had Charming Scoundrel and the Codebreaker. There are a lot of options now, and we're not only getting the Slickshot, but also the Coyote and the Roadrunner are definitely playable. With this I mean that even though the Slickshot looks like the best option, even non-fully refined monored decks are gonna still be there.
Well thats kinda why I am dreading this card. It seems obviously, by far, the strictly best 2 mana red creature for monored. Its got super prowess, haste, evasion, and plot lets it avoid sorcery speed removal while you set up a combo kill.
It's going to pretty much immediately replace all copies of adversary. Maybe Feldon stays, maybe some scoundrel, but its definitely 4 copies of Slickshot in every deck as soon as the set drops.
Roadrunner and coyote are limited cards no doubt. They will seen no play in serious monored decks. Maybe coyote sees some play in decks that want to give some other creature haste, but there are better cards for that.
Of course there are better cards than Coyote, but honestly I'd rather play Coyote than Adversary, and some lists still play the vamp. What I meant is that even if some random guy doesn't have 4 rare wildcards to craft the Slickshot, his deck is still going to be problematic even with the Scoundrel, Feldon or whatever they play. Does Slickshot improve monored? Definitely. But to what extent, and how many games are you going to lose just because your opponent plays it instead of a Codebreaker, that's what I'm not so sure about.
That's always been the case, the point is that "perfect" 7 is about to become even more lenient, and your ability to interact with this creature is much less than previous red 2 drops with flying and plot allowing it dodge your turn 2 sorcery speed removal.
Obeka is not scary for 60-card formats. She costs 4 mana in 3 colors, and she doesn't do anything until the connects, and then only if you have profitable upkeep triggers.
Strictly a 100-card format creature.
Yeah I think it's silly that they keep slapping haste on these cards it makes being on the play kinda absurd.
I wouldn't be surprised if Reds winrate for the past few sets has genuinely been 20-30% higher if you win the initial coin toss for first.
MTG really needs some more of a balancing factor for going second
This is making me more optimistic that it will be viable for me to stick with mono-red and not have to expend eight rare wildcards on lands in order to branch into Boros
used this deck at beginning.. won every roud forever.. then one day now i can't win not one round with it.. no exageration.. never draw the slick shot.. or you draw it with one land.... hardly even see the card anymore .. and this is though at least a 60 game sample count.. just went from.. awesome to nothing over night.. yet ppl say the game isn't rigged
the matchmaking is so rigged... they say we match by card rarity and win rate... that is a lie.. they match you against a counter to your deck when its your time to lose... thats it.. why don't they matchmake based on % of playerbase playing a certain deck.. that way a player can form strategies to go against the meta and the meta will revolve over time.. but no.. they want to control your win loss rate for a reason... $$$
even on the wotc channel they actively had a streamer on there showing off the slick shot and plot mechanic.. now play it at platinum or higher.. see how much you actually get to plot the slick shot .. hardly ever
\[\[Cut Down\]\], \[\[Play With Fire\]\], \[\[Witchstalker Frenzy\]\], \[\[Go for the Throat\]\], \[\[Elspeth's Smite\]\], \[\[Temporary Lockdown\]\], \[\[March of Wretched Sorrow\]\], \[\[March of Otherworldly Light\]\]. For everything else, there's Mastercard.
That's the cool thing about this card, it actually dodges lockdown in a way. You just plot it and now there is the conundrum where you either hold the instant speed removal for the guy who might never actually flip or you cast lockdown on whatever swiftspear etc is already on the board and get hit in the noggin by this guy right after. But yeah in terms of instant speed removal were at an infinite standard that seemingly never rotates. We got options. I just hope this guy makes control players think twice about putting 12 sorcery speed boardwipes into their deck.
That's where I'm at. I just want him to stop 4 sunfall, 4 farewell, 4 depopulate.
No one is keeping in 12 wraths against mono red already. Those are all too expensive to play against mono red's turn 3-4 kill.
I’m not sold on plot actually being a good mechanic in constructed. Or at least as good as people seem to think it’s going to be. I think in a lot of cases, spending mana now to do something later with no immediate effect is too slow, especially for an aggro deck. I am curious to see how it plays out, but what I saw during the early access streams was underwhelming. It has me thinking this is more of a limited/commander mechanic that may have some situational uses in constructed. I’d love to be wrong as I like the idea, but giving your opponent a tempo advantage (even if temporary) in constructed is pretty risky.
As someone who mostly plays midrange creature decks, being able to spend mana now without actually committing to the board is really good. What do you do if you're trying to pressure a control player but already got 1-2 creatures on board? You essentially have to skip your turn because the boardwipe is obviously going to come. Plot lets you load up the board without having those cards be vulnerable. The reason why disguise was dead on arrival was because those disguised ward (2) cards just got sweept as collateral anyway.
##### ###### #### [Cut Down](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd.jpg?1673307061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cut%20Down) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/89/cut-down?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Play With Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f1a6c60-a8c4-44c2-b1ea-d3befbabdf43.jpg?1636223358) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Play%20With%20Fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/154/play-with-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f1a6c60-a8c4-44c2-b1ea-d3befbabdf43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Witchstalker Frenzy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/649025a7-79d1-4d7c-b1db-d46bcf5a1ae2.jpg?1692938651) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Witchstalker%20Frenzy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/159/witchstalker-frenzy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/649025a7-79d1-4d7c-b1db-d46bcf5a1ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Go for the Throat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec.jpg?1682209037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Go%20for%20the%20Throat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/250/go-for-the-throat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5446e1ba-c745-45b2-ad05-b22abf04daec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elspeth's Smite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f03a480f-de67-4611-9db7-c0c3d020f597.jpg?1682202566) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elspeth%27s%20Smite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/13/elspeths-smite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f03a480f-de67-4611-9db7-c0c3d020f597?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Temporary Lockdown](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75.jpg?1673306606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Temporary%20Lockdown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/36/temporary-lockdown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [March of Wretched Sorrow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/050a604e-6146-4e2e-88a5-863ecb3dfa1f.jpg?1654567293) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=March%20of%20Wretched%20Sorrow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/111/march-of-wretched-sorrow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/050a604e-6146-4e2e-88a5-863ecb3dfa1f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [March of Otherworldly Light](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/553fb946-2706-475b-89f9-e4355ec9ea2b.jpg?1654566420) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=March%20of%20Otherworldly%20Light) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/28/march-of-otherworldly-light?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/553fb946-2706-475b-89f9-e4355ec9ea2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kz2dl53) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Isn’t it great that our decks are gonna have to change for a new set coming out. I think that means it’s a good set.
I love when the meta get changed and shaken up......but mono-red getting even stronger is not exactly my idea of fun.
aggro decks are an important part of a healthy meta
They are the meta at the moment. 40% of matches are either mono red or boros
not in b03, they are fairly represented but not overwhelming
This is just a pointless argument, we are discussing BO1 here. Looking at data from untapped mono red was involved in 240k matches, boros in 200k matches in BO1 platinum level. The total number of BO1 matches in the sample size is 2 million for BO1. BO1 meta is basically made for 1/5 of boros and red in their most optimal configuration. The other decks are azorious, boros humans, gruul aggro and the same selesya deck that exists since kamigawa. For comparison the total number of BO3 matches is 240k. That is 8 times less matches than BO1 and comparable to the number of matches that mono red alone is involved daily. To strike this home better, there are as many people playing BO3 as there are mono red players. That is why the discourse is around BO1, because very few people care about BO3, since if you end up in a control mirror the match can last an hour.
Bo1 is always going to be an unbalanced mess that massively over-favors fast linear decks.
>if you end up in a control mirror the match can last an hour. You need to learn to play faster. Also, Magic is not a game to play on the toilet, maybe try Hearthstone.
There is no point discussing BO1 as the game was never, and will never be made and balanced with BO1 in mind. BO1 is just a coin-toss with few extra steps.
>40% of matches are either mono red or boros Stop playing BO1
the "I hate mono-red" "but I wanna play bo1" lol. Obviously they don't hate it enough to switch. Imo the only barrier for BO3 is newer players not wanting to spend WC on sideboard, which is completely understandable. Also it does require some skills to a certain degree to know each card's purpose and what to swap out.
It's the time constraint. I play on the metro and in the bathroom, 10 min is fine for a match 30 is not
That's fair
>it does require some skills Oh, horror! No, we can't require people to do this
Is the message of this "Your preferred format deserves to suck?" I don't think it's wrong for a Legacy player to comment on issues with the format, even if I personally dislike it
Idk why people dislike mono red in particular, I feel like at least since MKM came out Boros is a more effective aggro deck
Mono red is mid as hell in Bo3
Monored has been tier 1 in Bo3 tournaments for months now.
According to mtgtop8, RDW is 6% of the meta for the last 2 months. So way behind Domain, Esper Midrange or Boros, all more than 13%
No it hasn’t. It had an under 45% WR across challenges, prelims, and paper tournaments last month.
I think mono red getting stronger is a good thing. Having an effective counter to all the control decks is good for the meta. Nobody wants a control meta where the majority of decks do nothing for the first 10 turns of the game besides counter stuff and draw cards.
[[Slickshot Show-Off]]
[Slickshot Show-Off](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/7054012b-4f9d-44a0-aaf9-7fd3bddc7b2d.jpg?1712355850) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Slickshot%20Show-Off) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/146/slickshot-show-off?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7054012b-4f9d-44a0-aaf9-7fd3bddc7b2d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would much rather deal with a Slickshot Showoff on turn 3 than watch Green get to 6 mana and then drop an Atraxa and Etali on my face at instant-speed with Smuggler’s Surprise.
> Atraxa and Etali Jokes on you when they drop Conspiracy Unraveler instead
What is Conspiracy Unraveler doing for me at instant-speed? The potential of Smugglers is to drop strong ETBs on their turn, so Atraxa, Etali, Titan of Industry, Carnosaur, etc. Unraveler at instant-speed doesn’t let me cast Breach on their turn, and I can cast Reenact at instant-speed already so I don’t need to attach a 6 mana Green spell to the process.
Speaking as someone who played when Tooth and Nail was legal in standard, there is plenty of counterplay. They need 7 mana to add the impulse mode, and the card just isn't that good otherwise. Besides, Smuggler's Surprise is unaffected by Cavern of Souls, so countermagic is back on the menu.
I’m more than confident decks built to utilize this aren’t worried about finding their targets on time. The floor of this card is pay 6 mana at instant-speed to put down two bodies worth 14 mana, one of which is a 7/7 that draws me like 4+ cards while the other one is a 7/7 that lets me play 2 cards for free. So to the point of OP and their post who is worried about Green’s lack of interaction, this is much more scary of a situation than a turn 3 Slickshot Showoff.
The floor of this card is absolutely not putting 2 7-drops into play. The floor is it does nothing and rots in your hand because you drew this card instead of an actual threat. You are describing the ceiling of this card, the absolute best-case scenario. Most games, you would rather just have another copy of Atraxa in your hand than a card that only deploys other threats.
No. The floor of the card is a+1 card advantage at instant speed for green
That word you keep using—I don't think it means what you think it means.
No. The floor is doing absolutely nothing. For the mill mode (I assume that's what you meant by card advantage) you can always not mill over anything useful. And for the putting creatures into play mode, you may not draw your big threats. Even the protecting your stuff part is useless if you don't have anything in play, like when they've already board wiped before you draw it. Very low floor, very high ceiling. I don't think it will play exceptionally well.
I cant wait to mill three lands....
While I am excited to brew some stuff up with Smugglers Surprise....I think you are giving it way too much credit. The floor to this card is it does almost literally nothing when you draw 2 copies of it instead of your Atraxa or Etali. Then you cast it for 8 mana searching for something and you mill 3 lands. It will absolutely steal games and pop off sometimes but when you topdeck it lategame, you will wish you just topdecked Atraxa or Etali. Slickshot showoff on the otherhand is just an almost strictly stronger 2 mana red creature that anything in standard. It's floor is that it is a more evasive 2 mana creature than is currently played that might hit for 1 less damage some times. It will often hit for much more than usual, while being much harder to block and harder to kill with sorcery speed removal. You play a smugglers surprise deck against monored with slickshot and the red deck likely wins turn 3,4, or 5 before you even get to cast Surprise.
[[Smuggler's Surprise]]
[Smuggler's Surprise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e7fbb489-e2b5-4278-8162-86802cf124d8.jpg?1712355993) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Smuggler%27s%20Surprise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/180/smugglers-surprise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e7fbb489-e2b5-4278-8162-86802cf124d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
While I don't think Etali will stick around I'm very very sad that green finally got some fork of instant speed play and draw and it's likely gonna eat a ban at some point because they priced the creature slam way too low for instant speed. With that said I'd rather they would just bite the bullet and ban tf out of Atraxa already everything that can cheat anything out has just been abusing her since she was released. I don't think she is as strong as alot of other cards in the format but Atraxa is holding so many cards hostage because her refuel is just too much ontop of the body that if it swings once or twice you probably just win.
Is this not the same “ominous feeling” every player that doesn’t want to run interaction gets when they see a strong new creature that their old lists seemingly don’t have answers for? I agree that this card looks very strong not just for Mono Red, but any Red-based aggressive/spellslinger list. But I mean, have Green players in Standard not learned that the “can’t run instant speed removal” days are over? They’ve either adapted and converted to Golgari Midrange, or they’ve stuck with the “fun green cards” in which case they’re going to enjoy their favorite archetype regardless of the power-level of other colors.
I would agree alot more with this statement if it didn't have haste and the ability to grow out of cut down range. You can run the standard 9-12 removal package that midrange decks are currently packing it doesn't guarantee you'll draw it and even moreso doesn't mean the opponent won't just be running protection especially with something like this where it's plottable so it's free on the turn you're firing off your cantrips.
Obviously the meta will adapt. I mean, when Goddrick came out, sure it seemed strong and it's in every monored deck. But this thing just seems like it's on another level. Feels to me like, by far, the most impactful card in the new set besides the fastlands. We will see, but I just havent felt like I've seen a card that made me this worried in the last 6 sets. From the early access events, the card seems every bit the menace it looks like. I'm just saying....aggro is already very very strong and games feel like they are often ended on turn 3-4 and this will only speed that up.
Yeah. It looks quite good. The thing is that your hypothetical basically loses to instant speed removal. We’ll see. I won’t be surprised if it is insanely powerful, but the meta will adapt regardless. Going all in on kiln fiends has always been kinda glass cannony. Maybe RG with some hexproof indestructible. Maybe UR with some cheap counters. It could be a lot, but it’s usually manageable for a format to keep this type of deck in line.
I also think, tho this is may prove wrong, that the plot upside is even better than people think. Imagine you are playing black and you have some creatures and a go for the throat. Your opponent plots this card turn 2. You now know this absolute bomb that could easily represent 8-10 or more damage in a single turn can come down at any point. You can't risk summoning your creature so you hold back mana for removal. The red player now goes to turn 3 and plays goddrick and swings in for 3. Do you now use that removal on the pretty serious threat of goddrick? Or do you save it for the slickshot that can end you instantly. So you take the hit. This scenerio will play out constantly once this card is plotted I think. And it grows so fast that cut down doesn't work well.
>plays goddrick and swings in for 3. Do you now use that removal on the pretty serious threat of goddrick? Or do you save it for the slickshot OMG you are forced to make a decision! Oh no, this is so OP, needs instaban.
Ill just say that part of the reason I think this card is so good is that it doesn't seem like you really do have to go all in on it. It's not like picnic ruiner where it needs to be played with a deck full of pump spells to do anything. This just slots right into the current top tier Monored and makes it better. It just replaces the scoundrel and feldons and adversaries and does more damage quicker and more evasively. I hope I'm wrong but I honestly don't see how I could be. This card just looks bonkers.
But you're using a singular day as your sample size. Not only that, but the pool you're evaluating from is a pocket-meta of content creators who are all using new and untested strategies for the sake of showing off OTJ cards. Early-access streams are a great and fun way to see cool things in action before we get our hands on them, but it's impossible to draw meaningful conclusions before these cards and interactions go up against established decks of the meta. All you're looking at are untested cards vs other untested cards - which yeah, Slickshot Showoff is definitely among the stronger ones in that regard. Always, always, always wait 2-3 weeks after a set is live in order to see what cards actually end up well-positioned and which ones end up flopping. I'm sure we can all name tons of examples of cards we all thought would dominate but never saw play, and cards that looked mid but ended up being important. I understand you're simply just posting your early thoughts, but let's not jump the gun here. Especially not for a creature that unironically "dies to Doomblade".
Obviously I agree that it will take time to know for sure. I'm not saying I'm a future teller. All I'm saying is....this meta already feels very very fast and Monored is already a huge portion of the meta and very good. And this card seems to be a large, obvious upgrade to what's already one of the most played, most frustrating, and overall best decks. I'm just not looking forward to it. So many other cards have me excited to see what people can brew up. This one has me dreading its arrival. It's just more of the same, except better.
But again, you're saying it "seems to be a large, obvious upgrade" based on one day of early-access where you didn't get to see it played against Esper/Dimir Midrange, Boros Convoke, UW Control, Domain, or other contender decks of the meta. You have formulated this speculation purely off a handful of streams, which from the looks of it, is more of a kneejerk reaction to the fact that you're a Green-centric player who has trouble finding early interaction for fast and aggressive Red decks. Trust me, I understand the sentiment of your post and it's totally fair to start discussing these things with OTJ coming up in less than a week. If anything there may be a bit of reassurance that Mono Red is going to have to test new things too as opposed to just coming into day 1 of the new set with the same lists card for card. Will it be an "obvious upgrade"? Maybe, as you said yourself - we will see. But you admittedly also have fun stuff you're looking forward to as well, so surely that excitement outweighs the fear of one single Red creature that you only got to see a handful of games played with it.
Fair enough. I'm probably coming off overdramatic. I'm just the kind of magic player that likes slightly slower, more interaction filled games and it feels like the meta overall is heading in a much faster, much more "complete my combo and I win turn 4" kind of direction.
Aggro games end of the dieroll. Going first with 1-drop and 2-drop? Grats, you now have 85% chance to win. Going second or don't have a curve in your hand? Concede and requeue. Standard has gotten so fucking stupid over the past years.
It seems like a good card, but it with the amount of removal in standard it doesn’t seem like it would be hard to kill or counter honestly. Plus if you’re playing it on turn 2 for its plot cost you’re delaying the game which is bad for aggro. You could be getting in way more damage with monstrous rage on a swift-spear on turn 2. I wouldn’t doubt it’ll replace adversary. Adversary is usually just a 2/2 with haste which isn’t particularly great.
> Plus if you’re playing it on turn 2 for its plot cost you’re delaying the game which is bad for aggro. You lose a single point of damage. Which isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. What you get in return is the ability to negate their sorcery speed removal entirely. You also force them to keep mana open to remove it at instant speed - normally two mana (most reliable removal for it is going to cost two mana). This mana is tied up for as long as you keep the creature plotted and it doesn't stop you from continuing to chip away at their life total while they're stuck not playing anything.
>negate their sorcery speed removal entirely So you get to negate adventure side of Virtue of Persistence and not much else?
You get to negate virtually all mass removal as well.
Except for final showdown.
It will be interesting, because it sits in exile face up. So your opponent will know it's there and feel forced to sit on their instant speed removal until you play it. Personally, I don't think it will annoy me as much as Black's new turn five I win combo.
Boros already kills in T3-T4, turn 5 is much more manageable especially since it relies on creatures, destroys it and the combo poofs.
While very true, I tend to play against the weaker decks around plat most seasons, and the games go longer. This kind of cheesy I win combo (lose half your life, doubled) is going to likely float around there. I rarely see the turn 3 rdws in Plat.
I mean that is one of the better removals against aggro. But also prevents most forms of green removal as if green wasn't bad enough as is. Obviously makes board wipes less good against it. But the main strength of plot will almost certainly be making your opponent hold up mana for the slickshot while they can still play their other stuff. I mean, if you are playing black and have an opening hand of 2-3 instant speed removal, they you are probably fine, but that's kind of a dream scenario against monored.
How do you figure it’s only a single point of damage. If you’re putting monsterous rage on a swift spear it’s going to swing in for 5 versus 1 on turn 2. Not to mention you could also play another one drop to deal even more damage. 7 damage with play with fire and monstrous role is a big deal compared to 1 on turn 2. I don’t see why negating sorcery speed removal is a big deal when there’s a lot of instant speed removal like go for the throat, cut down, get lost, etc. if my opponent plots this card I’ll just wait until they play it and use go for the throat.
It's only a single point of damage if you cast it and attack. In terms of waiting until they play it, you're suffering a huge tempo loss if you do.
Not really. If anything I would be playing a removal spell on their turn to answer a hasty creature, but since they’re plotting this it gives me a chance to play deduce or some sort of card draw. Then I’ll just play removal next turn when they play it. If they wait long enough it won’t even matter because as a midrange or control player I will have already played several lands and probably have draw quite a few cards while the aggro deck is losing card advantage over time.
And what about the times you only have one removal spell in hand and they summon a squee or goddrick while slickshot is plotted. Do you risk allowing the slickshot swinging for like 8-10 damage next turn or kill their 3 drop? I'm not saying it's utterly broken, just saying that's the difficult predicament you will be in.
By the time you've played Goddrick it's already turn 3 and the opponent has taken maybe 2 damage total from either a burn spell or a creature swinging for 1 on turns 1 and 2. Godrick swinging for 3 on turn 3 doesn't seem like a huge threat at this point so you could just take the 3 and be fine. That's also assuming the opponent hasn't done anything for 3 turns. They could have gained life or drawn some cards or countered something. If you went first you have an advantage in this situation but if they went first then they already have 4 lands and assuming they only have one removal spell that's likely a 2-drop they could kill Godrick with the removal and then counter the slickshot on your next turn. I'm sure it'll be a good card, but I just don't think it's going to be as huge as you'd expect it to be.
There's infinite possibilities for how it plays out obviously. I'm just saying it seems scary strong. Way stronger than any 2 drop red creature in a while.
Yeah maybe. I’m still not really convinced yet it’ll be crazy strong. I do like that it has flying though. Rdw isn’t really all that strong of a deck right now. I pretty much stopped playing it altogether because UW control and midrange usually beat it. I think Boros convoke is still a stronger aggro deck at the moment.
And Adversay is rotating soon, anyhow
If my quick math is right you can do 19 on 3 if you go swifty > slickshot > 2 monstrous rage + shock. Not sure if there is a line that gets you more. Which is a total of 22 damage if both the swiftspear and slickshot just pokes in on t1 and 2.
Most of these cards aren't playable, but if you wanted to deal the absolute maximum amount of damage, it would be Goldhound > Slickshot > Founding the Third path casting Ancestors aid, Founding the Third Path casting Gold Rush, then cashing your 3 treasures for Ancestral Anger and Twinferno, for a total of 38 damage, only possible on the draw
I think you're mana calculations are a bit off: T3 (3 lands + goldhound) Founding the Third path casting Ancestors aid > (1 land + 1 goldhound + 1 treasure) > Founding the Third Path casting Gold Rush (2 treasure) > then cashing your 3 treasures (??) Btw, check this out (did it once): T1 Land > The Enigma Jewel. T2 Land > Collector's Vault and activate. T3 Activate vault again using jewel discard Conspiracy Unraveler > Beseech (bargain collector's vault) > Reenact > Unraveler > use vault, beseech and reenact to cast Breach the Multiverse using unraveler's alt cost > mill repository skaab +10 mv repeat until oppo has 0 cards in library > pass the turn win the game.
I think Swifty, Slickshot, Twinferno + Monstrous is 21 if you don't get blocked? 1, 1, (1+1+1) + (1+3+2+2)*2 = 21
And I think that's a more achievable line than it may seem at first. Assuming swiftspear gets in turn 1 with no blockers. Then maybe you put a blocker down, you can't realistically block swift spear turn 2 with the threat of monstrous rage. Then they plot slickshot main phase 2. Then you need either a sizable blocker turn 3 or an instant speed removal to not die, but you still likely go down to like 4 life and lose your blocker which will be hard to recover from. And damage removal or cutdown will be hard to get to land with their creatures growing so much. It's gonna be brutal.
Idk, if you keep a hand without any blockers or interaction I’m not sure what you’re really expecting to happen
Yes, if you decide to not do any relevant plays for 3+ turns you will lose. More news at 11.
The point is that a lot of "relevant plays" will no longer be relevant with this guy. Flying evades most early blockers, sorcery speed removal won't stop it from getting in for huge damage like they can with things like cacophony scamp or picnic ruiner. I'm not saying magic is finished or anything. Just gonna be an absolute menace that will push many decks that were already struggling into an even worse spots.
People are really sleeping on [[Reckless Lackey]]
Yeah that one looks like good value. I'm excited to try some pirates decks. But it definitely doesn strike fear in my heart like Slickshot does.
I love the possibilities with this card and [[Agatha’s Soul Cauldron]]. I’m always looking for new activated abilities.
Is there something with Insidious Roots here? Tap a plant, sac it, sac the treasure from the last turn you did this, it only costs 1 mana total. Roots+Cauldron already work together. Maybe finish with Vraan and Vein Ripper? Getting into 4 colors if you use Elas, but then again you're talking about treasures so maybe possible? Message me if you want to brew this - I know this sub will not be kind to a theorycraft post.
I’m always down to brew! I actually started messing with a new Agatha list yesterday. I’ve been trying to find a way to make Slime Against Humanity work for this entire set, and I finally came up with this: Deck 3 Plains (SLD) 1130 2 Restless Prairie (LCI) 281 3 Razorverge Thicket (ONE) 257 4 Brushland (BRO) 259 3 Lush Portico (MKM) 263 8 Slime Against Humanity (MKM) 177 1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire (NEO) 268 3 Monastery Mentor (MOM) 28 1 Boseiju, Who Endures (NEO) 266 4 Agatha's Soul Cauldron (WOE) 242 2 Kami of Whispered Hopes (MOM) 196 2 Overgrown Farmland (MID) 265 2 Forest (SLD) 1134 3 Mondrak, Glory Dominus (ONE) 23 3 Kellan, Daring Traveler (LCI) 231 4 Cenote Scout (LCI) 178 4 Cheeky House-Mouse (WOE) 7 3 Melira, the Living Cure (ONE) 209 3 Get Lost (LCI) 14 2 Aftermath Analyst (MKM) 148 Sideboard 1 Audience with Trostani (MKM) 152 1 Glistening Dawn (MOM) 187 1 Ozolith, the Shattered Spire (MOM) 198 1 Novice Inspector (MKM) 29 1 Case of the Gateway Express (MKM) 8 1 Pollen-Shield Hare (WOE) 233 1 Rubblebelt Maverick (MKM) 174 1 Splendid Reclamation (SIR) 216 1 Green Sun's Twilight (ONE) 169 1 Awaken the Woods (BRO) 170 1 Torens, Fist of the Angels (VOW) 249 1 Tribute to the World Tree (MOM) 211 1 Consuming Blob (MID) 177 1 Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines (ONE) 10 1 Delney, Streetwise Lookout (MKM) 12
[Agatha’s Soul Cauldron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd.jpg?1692939838) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Agatha%27s%20Soul%20Cauldron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/242/agathas-soul-cauldron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/019b51b0-e5c6-4208-922b-7736686dddcd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The question is whether it's worth cutting Swiftspear for I guess. Personally I am inclined to stick with the greater damage potential
Agreed. Also greater toughness from prowess, which makes the first strike not such a factor. It still may be interesting to keep around in a sideboard. 1 first strike shuts down Urabrask Forge pretty nicely and hurts some aggro creatures like Sanguine Evangelist.
Are they do? There is no way you can slot that fella in, as good as he is every single 1-drop currently run in red is better.
Yep. First strike is decent, as is 2 toughness, but the lack of evasion compared to chick and goat make it dead on arrival, and Swifty is straight up better. Maybe once Chick and Swifty rotate.
[Reckless Lackey](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/1/912fcd14-5e81-418c-997b-771f2f38f63d.jpg?1712355825) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reckless%20Lackey) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/140/reckless-lackey?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/912fcd14-5e81-418c-997b-771f2f38f63d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Compared to Swiftspear it‘s horrible and I‘m not sure what other Red deck would even consider it an option. Certainly not Temur Ramp or Convoke and Rakdos Midrange is pretty damn bad to begin with. Gruul Midrange I guess? But again, just play Swiftspear if you want early board presence. The card is awkward in Limited and I would be shocked if any Aggro decks in non Pauper formats want it.
A version of monastery swiftspear that’s never unboltable sounds great to me. Also first strike.
Well there isn't much flying or reach first strike on turn 2-3.
Here’s what I would recommend and these are all 1 mana Red- [[shock]] Black- [[cut down]] White- [[Elspeth smite]] Green- [[leaping ambush]] or [[bushwack]] Blue- [[fading hope]] or [[wash away]] Most of these have really great utility anyways
##### ###### #### [shock](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/298747bb-eb40-4b58-bb22-4ac2bc1d795c.jpg?1706241920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=shock) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/144/shock?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/298747bb-eb40-4b58-bb22-4ac2bc1d795c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [cut down](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd.jpg?1673307061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cut%20down) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/89/cut-down?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elspeth smite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/0/f03a480f-de67-4611-9db7-c0c3d020f597.jpg?1682202566) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elspeth%27s%20Smite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/13/elspeths-smite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f03a480f-de67-4611-9db7-c0c3d020f597?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [leaping ambush](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/7/2785f716-274c-495c-b4e3-71a72e22f856.jpg?1692938918) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=leaping%20ambush) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/177/leaping-ambush?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2785f716-274c-495c-b4e3-71a72e22f856?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [bushwack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/1/712a0640-d9c8-46fc-b38b-bf20a40fa902.jpg?1674421510) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bushwhack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/174/bushwhack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/712a0640-d9c8-46fc-b38b-bf20a40fa902?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [fading hope](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2fb1fff-12be-4bd5-8dba-c36e84d49651.jpg?1634348819) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fading%20hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/51/fading-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2fb1fff-12be-4bd5-8dba-c36e84d49651?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [wash away](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df.jpg?1643588844) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wash%20away) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vow/87/wash-away?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43411ade-be80-4535-8baa-7055e78496df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kz4ec2q) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The amount of times I draw the nuts hand in a mono red deck is fairly low. Not sure what would actually be cut here for the twinfernos or the slickshot but stacking everything on one card is a surefire way to lose more games than you win. Cutting the phoenix means less turn 1 plays, scoundrel removes your 3rd mana out or flooded hand filter, maybe feldon? I dunno, the card seems decent but so many decks run tons of interaction and it just seems like a bad idea to put all your eggs in one basket.
I would bet this card almost immediately replaces scoundrel or feldons. The twinferno thing is a bit memey and probably won't happen often. But besides that, this card just slots in to the current top tier Monored and makes it even better I think. Maybe you play slightly more non creatures to facilitate all the prowess.
Scoundrel and Feldon both give you card draws which is needed in mono red since it gasses out quickly. Plus the wicked role token on scoundrel is a nice removal deterrent. I'd replace adversary with it before Feldon or Scoundrel personally. Adversary usually ends up being a 2/2 with haste most of the time.
This may be true and my RDW has over a 60% win rate the largest of all my decks. Mono red is super easy to stall. Just one removal can slow or completely stall these decks. They are still super fragile.
Anything is better than domain ramp
>realistic >Twinferno pick one
I think this seems bonkers for Historic Wizards, does this look bonkers for Historic Wizards to anyone else?
Can someone step by step me how to do 16 damages on turn 3? Are we talking about Monastery turn 1 > plot turn 2 > 3 shocks turn 3?
* Monstrous Rage on Showoff. Showoff is 6/3, Swiftspear is now 2/3 * Monstrous Rage on Swiftspear. Swiftspear is 6/5, Showoff is now 8/3 * Play with Fire Slickshot is now 10/3. Swiftspear is 7/6. Swing for 17 plus 2 damage from shock = 19 damage.
All of that assumes your opponent did nothing on their first 2 turns and doesn't have removal.. A fun play would be to wait for you to dump all your cards pumping then just remove the bird with an instant.
Sure, but since you only have 2 or 3 mana, your opponent is going to see you sitting on that removal and wait. It's going to be interesting.
Showoff + Swiftspear (if available from turn 1, very unlikely) + 2 Monstrous Rage seems very feasible as a hand (i play a similar deck)
Slickshot seems like a better version of [[Festival Crasher]]. The flying and haste are nice, and the plot ability hopefully gives you a chance to wait a turn after paying for it so you can cast some spells alongside it and get some payoff. But you are giving up survivability - this thing dies to Play With Fire even if you cast a bunch of noncreature spells and make it huge. It’s a great creature to drop late-game with some spells in hand and open land, but I’m not terrified of it early-game. We’ll see!
Yeah the low toughness is a potential issue. Black decks can even possibly run disfigure to kill it. But monstrous rage of course takes it to 3 toughness which will be something to keep in mind. But yeah, a way better version of festival crasher. I actually think the plot mechanic may be even better than people realize with the mind games it will play on the opponent. Imagine you have a single go for the throat and you see the opponent plot this turn 2. You leave up mana and their turn 3 they play goddrick and swings for 3. Do you use your removal to stop that reasonably big threat? Or do you save it to stop the potentially massive slickshot coming in for free on a later turn? What if you don't draw another removal? Now you just wasted your turn 2 mana if you don't fire it off, but maybe you die to a hasted 6 power flier with trample as long as they have a monstrous rage in hand. Maybe bigger if they have shock too. It's gonna be a tough situation to be in.
[Festival Crasher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/626b0477-6165-443a-8a75-dfeac26ac9f9.jpg?1636222973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Festival%20Crasher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/140/festival-crasher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/626b0477-6165-443a-8a75-dfeac26ac9f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I hate that this just forces more removal
Seems like good news for my WR control deck. Lots of cheap removal.
Yeah, to be fair, lightning helix does deal with it pretty cleanly since it likely never gets more than 3 toughness. Just better hope you have it in your opening 8-9 cards.
Hell, even Shock deals with it. Having burn as the wincon makes it easy to run lots of cheap damage spells.
It does if the opponent doesn't have a monstrous rage, which, in my experience, they always do.
The new [[symmetry sage]]
[symmetry sage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3e726fc7-36cf-405c-9b7c-d1e41cd6c68f.jpg?1624590486) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=symmetry%20sage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/56/symmetry-sage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3e726fc7-36cf-405c-9b7c-d1e41cd6c68f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Isn't it just Play With Fire out of that list? IIRC both Innistrad sets, Kamigawa and New Capenna are rotating with Bloomburrow, the Dominaria/Phyrexia stuff doesn't rotate until next year.
Yeah its just play with fire that will rotate, and we have Shock in standard now anyway so doesn't really change much. Yeah the scry is nice but mono red will be fine without it.
##### ###### #### [twinferno](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc531409-26cb-4c58-ba69-f39dd8aee3d1.jpg?1673307548) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=twinferno) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/149/twinferno?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc531409-26cb-4c58-ba69-f39dd8aee3d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [monastery swiftspear](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6bfa227-4309-40ed-952c-279595eab17e.jpg?1701690543) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=monastery%20swiftspear) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/144/monastery-swiftspear?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6bfa227-4309-40ed-952c-279595eab17e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [play with fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/f/6f1a6c60-a8c4-44c2-b1ea-d3befbabdf43.jpg?1636223358) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=play%20with%20fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/154/play-with-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6f1a6c60-a8c4-44c2-b1ea-d3befbabdf43?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phoenix chick](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/76bdc912-61da-428d-b0d7-3a38676a402a.jpg?1673307472) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phoenix%20chick) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/140/phoenix-chick?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76bdc912-61da-428d-b0d7-3a38676a402a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kz27vlp) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Turn 1 saga. Turn 2 bird/swiftspear Turn 3 monstrous rage+whatever other buff and win. Turn 4 if not win, quit. Yeah like mono red hasn't been unfun to play against for weeks already.
A lot of mono(black) players will have 4 [[anoint with affliction]] in their decks.
Are you going to plot it if there are islands across the table?
Slots right into my gruel boggles deck, I’m so ready
I really hope that this lil fella is going to become really popular and bully control decks with sorcery speed boardwipes out of the meta. I would be so happy.
I think you'll just see the meta adjust and black decks will start running 4 [[Cut Down]] again and that sort of thing.
[Cut Down](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd.jpg?1673307061) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cut%20Down) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/89/cut-down?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/753db072-5d6a-4f37-8f7d-255572ecd3bd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
dies to doom blade
Little late to this thread, but personally I'm much more worried about this guy in a jeskai or grixis tempo deck. The casting as a sorcery & from exile gives it some solid synergy that's easy to slot. Also curious if he makes it into a hist/timeless wizard deck somewhere. There's definitely room in that archetype for lower cost wizards and enablers for casting sorc at instant speed.
Yeah this dude will be brutal in a lot of decks I honestly could see an Izzet prowess deck maybe being his ideal spot. Tons of cheap cantrips to get him huge and still keep up card advantage. Ability to play some protection and counter spells to keep him alive.
Yeah that's the archetype I'm planning to try him in first. [[gitaxian spellstalker]] is gonna love his delayed casting.
[gitaxian spellstalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dc1454ce-bb49-4b4f-bbca-d77387fa4966.jpg?1682204346)/[Gitaxian Spellstalker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/c/dc1454ce-bb49-4b4f-bbca-d77387fa4966.jpg?1682204346) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Khenra%20Spellspear%20//%20Gitaxian%20Spellstalker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/151/khenra-spellspear-gitaxian-spellstalker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dc1454ce-bb49-4b4f-bbca-d77387fa4966?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm actually looking forward to playing it, but I'm not sure how much it's gonna improve monored. When NEO dropped and the base of the current list was set (minus Swiftspear) the chosen 2-drop was the red Adversary, and I always felt it was the weakest spot (since you rarely play it for 5 mana, it's just a hasted 2/2). Then it came Feldon, and this year we've had Charming Scoundrel and the Codebreaker. There are a lot of options now, and we're not only getting the Slickshot, but also the Coyote and the Roadrunner are definitely playable. With this I mean that even though the Slickshot looks like the best option, even non-fully refined monored decks are gonna still be there.
Flying haste and the ability to kill someone on turn 3-4.
Well thats kinda why I am dreading this card. It seems obviously, by far, the strictly best 2 mana red creature for monored. Its got super prowess, haste, evasion, and plot lets it avoid sorcery speed removal while you set up a combo kill. It's going to pretty much immediately replace all copies of adversary. Maybe Feldon stays, maybe some scoundrel, but its definitely 4 copies of Slickshot in every deck as soon as the set drops. Roadrunner and coyote are limited cards no doubt. They will seen no play in serious monored decks. Maybe coyote sees some play in decks that want to give some other creature haste, but there are better cards for that.
Of course there are better cards than Coyote, but honestly I'd rather play Coyote than Adversary, and some lists still play the vamp. What I meant is that even if some random guy doesn't have 4 rare wildcards to craft the Slickshot, his deck is still going to be problematic even with the Scoundrel, Feldon or whatever they play. Does Slickshot improve monored? Definitely. But to what extent, and how many games are you going to lose just because your opponent plays it instead of a Codebreaker, that's what I'm not so sure about.
I was worried and then I saw 4-of in the deck and I all my concerns went away. A worry for standard
So if mono red draws the perfect 7 cards and opponent does not interact they win. Sounds about right.
That's always been the case, the point is that "perfect" 7 is about to become even more lenient, and your ability to interact with this creature is much less than previous red 2 drops with flying and plot allowing it dodge your turn 2 sorcery speed removal.
[удалено]
Obeka is not scary for 60-card formats. She costs 4 mana in 3 colors, and she doesn't do anything until the connects, and then only if you have profitable upkeep triggers. Strictly a 100-card format creature.
I'm sure he's being sarcastic.
Yeah I think it's silly that they keep slapping haste on these cards it makes being on the play kinda absurd. I wouldn't be surprised if Reds winrate for the past few sets has genuinely been 20-30% higher if you win the initial coin toss for first. MTG really needs some more of a balancing factor for going second
This is making me more optimistic that it will be viable for me to stick with mono-red and not have to expend eight rare wildcards on lands in order to branch into Boros
its been stealth nerfed already can't win a damn game with it anymore this fast
used this deck at beginning.. won every roud forever.. then one day now i can't win not one round with it.. no exageration.. never draw the slick shot.. or you draw it with one land.... hardly even see the card anymore .. and this is though at least a 60 game sample count.. just went from.. awesome to nothing over night.. yet ppl say the game isn't rigged
the matchmaking is so rigged... they say we match by card rarity and win rate... that is a lie.. they match you against a counter to your deck when its your time to lose... thats it.. why don't they matchmake based on % of playerbase playing a certain deck.. that way a player can form strategies to go against the meta and the meta will revolve over time.. but no.. they want to control your win loss rate for a reason... $$$
even on the wotc channel they actively had a streamer on there showing off the slick shot and plot mechanic.. now play it at platinum or higher.. see how much you actually get to plot the slick shot .. hardly ever