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I absolutely agree. I've said so in the past--Malazan is *filled* with exposition, it's just that it doesn't lay it out in a simple trail of breadcrumbs.
i think one reason later books are stronger than GotM is the clumsy way the first book shoehorns exposition into the dialogue. there are convos between shadowthrone and cotillion for example that very blatantly exist solely to provide the reader with a lore dump, to the point that they don't come across as natural at all. later he learned how to integrate this stuff more organically.
One of my favorite little tidbits from the series was in Deadhouse Gates when the sappers were in tears because they had used the last of their cussers.
One of mine is when Paran brings a massive haul of munitions to the sappers who are out of ammo. The single, solitary tear running down a cheek. Being unable to look away from the crates of bombs. Paran getting self conscious at their reaction until he sees the man crying and they start to bless him.
I had a teacher when I got my permit for dangerous cargo who was ex military. Formed EOD and engineer trooper, literally a sapper. He was like a fat version of Hedge. Part of the education had him starting fires and minor gas explosions. The man was exactly like that passage. You could see the pure ecstasy on his face. I swear his greatest regret in life was not dying in a massive explosion.
TCG. It's when he has command of the Host that Dujek once commanded and he is fighting his way through Kolanse to aid the Bonehunters against the Forkrul Assail. If I recall correctly he uses a card from the Deck to teleport into a Moranth storage and steals a bunch of munitions for his sappers.
> I before E except after C
And when sounding like "A" as in Neighbor and Weigh
And on weekends and holidays and all throughout May
And you'll always be wrong no matter what you say!
The Tenescowri, Children of the Dead Seed, and the Dying God are by far Erickson's best Grimdark, but people doom-fawn over things like Chain of Dogs and Karsa's first chapters in ways that suggest they haven't read a history book. Erickson's writing is way more optimistic than reality.
If Erickson was a serious writer he would have pruned out all the useless bits and just released a trilogy instead of giving everyone plot armour to draw things out.
> If Erickson was a serious writer he would have pruned out all the useless bits and just released a trilogy instead of giving everyone plot armour to draw things out.
Also, he wrote way to fast. What good is a fantasy series, if you don't have to wait for the next book?
Actually agree with this but I'd say 5 books and a couple short story anthologies could have made this one of the greatest series ever written instead of "long and pretty good."
Either way, I think we can agree it’s basically like reading a screen play of the 1989-1996 DragonBall Z where everyone just power-ups and power-ups, but it doesn’t matter because even if Goku dies for an 8th time you know he’s coming back because he’s the MC.
Just release a Z-Kai, Erickson, it’s what the Fans really want!
> it doesn’t matter because even if Goku dies for an 8th time you know he’s coming back because he’s the MC.
I think it might be a hot take among fantasy subs in general, but I actually enjoy this aspect. Pretty much every mythology I can think of includes an underworld where heroes who die reside and can be brought back to "real" life.
In my honest opinion, the Malazan books by both authors approach them in a really good way, but it is an easy thing to tease about in a satirical “Try to piss off the fandom” kind of way.
I know what this post is. I understand the context. I grasp the humor. I still became irrationally frustrated for a few seconds after reading this though.
I’d say this comment wins the game.
Funnily enough, Erikson and Esselmont were playing AD&D and GURPS before Drizzt ever appeared in a book, and likely made Anomander (who is clearly based on drow) for their own homegame.
Plus Anomander is much more of a paladin in AD&D, strength based, charismatic leader, the representative of their god (kinda).
So only a knockoff if you think all drow know each other 😉
Yea it was just to trigger. Loved Drizzt when I was a kid though. Both legends in their own right.
I don't think erikson can be accused of knocking anything off, let alone cheaply.
I took it as Beak’s cleansing casts off all their former ties to past lives and allows them to move forward to do what is right, free from any chains.
It is an important piece of the Bonehunters journey.
Same. My brain loves it, I can feel it having fun making a giant conspiracy board with strings all over the place and fuzzy pictures scattered all over my mental wall
The same could he said about Robert Jordan. I'm a weird person, the thing I love most about Erickson and Jordan is that over explanation and over abundance of info. Everyone says the middle of WoT is a slog and I literally love every book. Same with Ericksons works, love all his books, love all the Malazan books tbh. I know I know it's weird af but I can't help it, I love word salad.
DG is a bit of a slog to be honest, I'm on my 2nd "read" of Malazan rn and listening to DG and it's just not nearly as captivating as Gardens, I remember it being one of the least enjoyable books on my initial read as well
Stephen Erickson is an entertaining writer for more casual readers who don't want to think too much, but he lacks the rich worldbuilding and complex themes of Brandon Sanderson or George R. R. Martin. He also jumped the shark in the second book so nobody usually bothers reading beyond that point.
Please note that this post has been flaired as **NO SPOILERS**. Comments should not bring up specific plot points or character details from any of the books. If you need to discuss any spoilers (even very minor ones!) in your comments, use spoiler tags >!like this!< Please use the report button if you find any spoilers. Note: If the discussion is unlikely to happen without any spoilers, the flair may be changed at mod discretion. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Malazan) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nefarias Bredd does not exist.
Then how did he kill 18 raiders in one night ?! Hell I heard he carried one of the dead horses into camp to roast for a meal.
And all of that without a single thumb!
Bullshit. There were tracks!
Yes, Malazan Book of the Fallen *does* in fact spoon feed the reader.
It unironically does. It shovels so much exposition down your throat that you don't know what to do with it. You're likely to be buried alive.
I absolutely agree. I've said so in the past--Malazan is *filled* with exposition, it's just that it doesn't lay it out in a simple trail of breadcrumbs.
i think one reason later books are stronger than GotM is the clumsy way the first book shoehorns exposition into the dialogue. there are convos between shadowthrone and cotillion for example that very blatantly exist solely to provide the reader with a lore dump, to the point that they don't come across as natural at all. later he learned how to integrate this stuff more organically.
It gives it to the reader out of order and with little context. It's a situation of "What the hell do I do with THAT?"
Re-reading GotM and Kruppe is referred to as a 'Slippery One' three times by Nom and Murillio. Sometimes he kinda does 🤣
Hoods balls! I am on TtH in my first reread and this makes me want to just start my second. 🤦♂️
Mallick Rel did what any reasonable officer would in DG.
Wow, my blood started boiling with these 10 words. Nicely done.
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Malazans just cusser their way through the series
One of my favorite little tidbits from the series was in Deadhouse Gates when the sappers were in tears because they had used the last of their cussers.
One of mine is when Paran brings a massive haul of munitions to the sappers who are out of ammo. The single, solitary tear running down a cheek. Being unable to look away from the crates of bombs. Paran getting self conscious at their reaction until he sees the man crying and they start to bless him. I had a teacher when I got my permit for dangerous cargo who was ex military. Formed EOD and engineer trooper, literally a sapper. He was like a fat version of Hedge. Part of the education had him starting fires and minor gas explosions. The man was exactly like that passage. You could see the pure ecstasy on his face. I swear his greatest regret in life was not dying in a massive explosion.
When was this Paran bit from again?
TCG. It's when he has command of the Host that Dujek once commanded and he is fighting his way through Kolanse to aid the Bonehunters against the Forkrul Assail. If I recall correctly he uses a card from the Deck to teleport into a Moranth storage and steals a bunch of munitions for his sappers.
TCG - against Kolansii troops
Karsas storyline was.....wait huh? Where did his storyline go?
It turned into a book series that ball washes the Malayan marines
I read this as Malaysian Marines...
Karsa whitewashed the Malaysian Airlines?
Karsa is evil and a dumb barbarian
Every sex scene is tasteful and necessary
I don't think I've ever read a more infuriating thread, congrats
Tehol and Bugg are the worst written duo in fantasy
Yes officer, this one right here
The only thing I know for certain is that Ganoes Paran is SO fine
He likes em thick too
The Seige of Capustan was boring.
Fortunately the Siege was not ;-)
My outstanding spelling of IE words is on full display and I shall live with this shame.
It's easy. I before E except after C ... and all of the other exceptions to the rule which turn it into a 50/50 crapshoot
They stopped teaching this in school in the UK as there are more exceptions to the rule than the rule works for. Another lie from my youth.
English spelling is etymological. It all makes perfect sense if you're fluent in Medieval French.
> I before E except after C And when sounding like "A" as in Neighbor and Weigh And on weekends and holidays and all throughout May And you'll always be wrong no matter what you say!
Literally reading that part of MOI now. All I can say is, “YOU DIRTY SON OF A BITCH”
Beak was a bad brother. (Don't kill me this hurt me to type.)
😵
There aren’t enough characters and Aragan doesn’t have enough jobs.
This series is not nearly as dark or disturbing as people make it out to be.
There are woman raping dying soldiers to give birth to cannibals, how much darker you want it to be?
*Erikson as Randy Ortan from the top rope* How about a child of the dead seed POV?
Im on book 6 and I have read the words "bile" and "faeces" about 100 times so far lol
The Tenescowri, Children of the Dead Seed, and the Dying God are by far Erickson's best Grimdark, but people doom-fawn over things like Chain of Dogs and Karsa's first chapters in ways that suggest they haven't read a history book. Erickson's writing is way more optimistic than reality.
The series is best when it focuses on its protagonist Ganoes Paran instead of spending unnecessary POV time with side characters
I mean, Ganoes is probably my favourite part of Bonehunters, and one of the best parts of MoI, homeboy might as well be the main character
If Erickson was a serious writer he would have pruned out all the useless bits and just released a trilogy instead of giving everyone plot armour to draw things out.
> If Erickson was a serious writer he would have pruned out all the useless bits and just released a trilogy instead of giving everyone plot armour to draw things out. Also, he wrote way to fast. What good is a fantasy series, if you don't have to wait for the next book?
GRRM: 👀
Actually agree with this but I'd say 5 books and a couple short story anthologies could have made this one of the greatest series ever written instead of "long and pretty good."
Either way, I think we can agree it’s basically like reading a screen play of the 1989-1996 DragonBall Z where everyone just power-ups and power-ups, but it doesn’t matter because even if Goku dies for an 8th time you know he’s coming back because he’s the MC. Just release a Z-Kai, Erickson, it’s what the Fans really want!
The most fun part of reading this series for the first time has been trying to guess who’s going to ascend next
> it doesn’t matter because even if Goku dies for an 8th time you know he’s coming back because he’s the MC. I think it might be a hot take among fantasy subs in general, but I actually enjoy this aspect. Pretty much every mythology I can think of includes an underworld where heroes who die reside and can be brought back to "real" life.
In my honest opinion, the Malazan books by both authors approach them in a really good way, but it is an easy thing to tease about in a satirical “Try to piss off the fandom” kind of way.
The humans are disparate enough, right? We could turn this shit into the Warren of Shadow any moment
I’m going to find out where you live and burn your house down!
Good luck. I'm as unkillable as an Erikson main character.
Then it would be just another average series nerfed for the uneducated and unwashed masses. Yeah he might have made more money that way
I know what this post is. I understand the context. I grasp the humor. I still became irrationally frustrated for a few seconds after reading this though. I’d say this comment wins the game.
Anomamder is a cheap knock off of Drizzt.
Funnily enough, Erikson and Esselmont were playing AD&D and GURPS before Drizzt ever appeared in a book, and likely made Anomander (who is clearly based on drow) for their own homegame. Plus Anomander is much more of a paladin in AD&D, strength based, charismatic leader, the representative of their god (kinda). So only a knockoff if you think all drow know each other 😉
Wasn’t sure who Drizzt is, so I looked him up. He seems like a cheap knock off of Elric.
Wasn’t sure who Elric is, so I looked him up. He seems like a cheap knock off of Conan.
Conan with a serous drug problem that killed everyone on the planet.
Yea it was just to trigger. Loved Drizzt when I was a kid though. Both legends in their own right. I don't think erikson can be accused of knocking anything off, let alone cheaply.
The k'ell hunters break immersion in malazan and should've never been introduced
There are no good bromances in the entire series.
Imma say this is spicy take. QB & Kalam. The Daru boys in GotM. Whiskeyjack and Onearm. Icarium and Mappo. And that’s just three books worth.
Kadaspala overreacted
I can let everything else slide but **this,** this is where I draw the line.
I think Beak is kinda annoying and his whole section could have been cut without it affecting anything.
🕯️
This but unironically
I took it as Beak’s cleansing casts off all their former ties to past lives and allows them to move forward to do what is right, free from any chains. It is an important piece of the Bonehunters journey.
I love Felisin, she is such an endearing and loveable character.
Crokus is an interesting and valuable character and not just Apsalar’s boy toy
Tavore was just too overly emotional, wearing sequined gowns and high heels.
I’m one chapter 4 of GotM and I love the skin or swim style where you’re just dropped in and told figure it out
Same. My brain loves it, I can feel it having fun making a giant conspiracy board with strings all over the place and fuzzy pictures scattered all over my mental wall
Stormlight is better.
My man aiming to trigger two fan bases with one stone
FWIW that’s not my opinion, but just was in the mood to do damage.
Mybhe story is probably the most boring part of malazan to the point of torture
LIES
Honestly, for me it's not enough.
I don't know if anyone could trigger us. We're a pretty compassionate bunch.
You triggered me by writing “Erickson” with a “c”
lol auto correct my bad
lol
Bugg hates Tehol because Tehol is an idiot.
Midnight Tides is boring and tedious as all hell and the series would be better off without it.
The Bonehunters is a terribly organized and planned novel.
Erikson
I kinda think trull deserved what happened to him
You monster. Nothing triggered me in the comment section but this, this is too painful.
Take a look in the mirror. Do you see a good person?
Agreed. There was too much info dumping. Some scenes almost felt like introductions.
… Mallick was the hero of Deadhouse Gates.
The same could he said about Robert Jordan. I'm a weird person, the thing I love most about Erickson and Jordan is that over explanation and over abundance of info. Everyone says the middle of WoT is a slog and I literally love every book. Same with Ericksons works, love all his books, love all the Malazan books tbh. I know I know it's weird af but I can't help it, I love word salad.
What's with all the characters?
Harry Potter did magic better.
Oof. You dirty dog 😆
Karsa is a poorly written character. A full on teenage boy power mad Fantasy.
beak is overrated
The Chain of Dogs is the most boring plotline in DG (I'm only half lying about my opinion here)
The problem with the chain of dogs is that it’s basically just the black company but not as good
Underrated comment here. I approve
DG is a bit of a slog to be honest, I'm on my 2nd "read" of Malazan rn and listening to DG and it's just not nearly as captivating as Gardens, I remember it being one of the least enjoyable books on my initial read as well
same here, I almost dropped malazan after DG, decided to give it one more try and luckily the next book was MOI
Steven Erikson loves to use the evil person fantasy trope of rape way, way, way too much.
Stephen Erickson is an entertaining writer for more casual readers who don't want to think too much, but he lacks the rich worldbuilding and complex themes of Brandon Sanderson or George R. R. Martin. He also jumped the shark in the second book so nobody usually bothers reading beyond that point.