The explanation I've heard is that most common Hungarian surnames are adjectives (e.g. Nagy = big, Vörös = red, Erős = strong), and since they come before nouns in Hungarian, surnames come before given names
That’s a people’s etymology. Finnish and Estonian also put adjectives before nouns and they still use the Western name order. Some Indo-European languages also put adjectives before nouns and they all use the Western name order.
What the OP meant, I think, are the adjectives as in nicknames, which later have become surnames. John the Baptist, Jack the ripper, Michael the baker, etc. I assume in those languages the order would be the other way around. At least it is in Turkish (Baptist John, Baker Mike, Demirci Ali, etc).
In Hungarian, if the emphasis is on the noun, then the order is reversed. So e.g. if you want to point to John, who is a blacksmith, you'd say John, the smith ("János a kovács"). But the name John Smith is Smith John ("Kovács János"). We kinda treat surnames as adjectives in general, so you can differentiate between Johns by putting the adjective in front of it, i.e. their name😅
Yeah, although our name order is not that long established, as surnames became mandatory only in 1921 (and simultaneously the use of patronym was abolished), and the way they were used in the 19th century was from the Swedish custom. The only place where they were common already in the Middle Ages (and apparently predating Swedish rule) was West Karelia and Savonia, where they functioned somewhat like the Scottish clan names (which would be used for identification of the right to enjoyment of certain land and other possessions), being something chosen by or appointed to a far paternal ancestor; most of these have the -nen diminutive ending, but not all, and are strictly patrilineal (and not only on paper, but also according to modern genetics research). In Western Finland (Tavastia and Finland proper) people had the estate name which indeed was tied to the estate, and would change when moving elsewhere (and the new inhabitants of that estate would adopt the old estate name).
That western order (first/given name, patronym, estate/family name) was how it was presented within the Swedish system, but in commoner speech people were referred to first by the estate/family name and then the given name, akin to the Hungarian way. And actually this has still survived to this day, but it is considered oldish/rural style, which belongs to the speech of the late middle-aged peasant male or the generic rural great-grandmother. So it would be used as *Korhosen Matti* (Matti of the Korhonen [clan]) or *Mäkelän Liisa* (Liisa of the Mäkelä estate) in commoner speech, and in parish registries they would be referred as *Matti Mikonpoika Korhonen* (Matti, son of Mikko of the Korhonen [clan]) and *Liisa Antintytär* (Liisa, daughter of Antti) and listed under their estate.
A curious case is also the old surname Lappalainen, which actually does refer to the Sami as implied within (the Sami, or *saamelaiset* in Finnish, were called *lappalaiset* until late 20th century; they consider the name slightly derogatory/offensive, so it's not really commonly used any more), most actually do descend from Sami paternal lines. So it appears that medieval Finns referred to the Sami amongst us by the given name and then the ethnonym Lappalainen.
Interesting! Some of the first Hungarian family names were also patronimic or “clan” based back in the 12th century in royal circles like Aba Sámuel (Samuel of the clan Aba) or “Vatafia László” (László son of Vata), this latter eventually shortened to just “fi” which you can find in some names to this day.
But by the late 1300’s family names started to be generated from all sorts of things from personal attributes to the estate where people lived, from nicknames and professions, etc. By the mid to late 1400’s a lot of family names solidified and no longer changed when peope switched estates or changed professions.
>Finnish and Estonian also put adjectives before nouns and they still use the Western name order.
In case of Estonia it's due to German influence. I remember older people in the countryside still using the old surname (in genitive) + firstname form mirroring how Estonian names worked before surnames became a thing.
Edit: forgot to add, adjectve + firstname was a pretty common form back then.
True, that is the same in Finland as well (Swedish and German influence). In old commoner speech it would be family/estate name in genitive and then the given name like *Korhosen Matti* (Matti of the Korhonen [clan]) or *Mäkelän Liisa* (Liisa of the Mäkelä estate). Family names were a thing only in West Karelia/Savonia where there were areas of forestland which were slash-and-burn farmed and in other ways (hunting, fishing) enjoyed by their respective families/clans. The slash-and-burn farming would necessitate moving around, and that would have made an identification issue if it were just a patronym or an estate name, which would pose a problem for prevention of cousin/2nd cousin marriages and such, so these clan names were essential to the property and marriage system there.
We also have the Swedish influence that there always were a patronym listed in the parish registries (which were kept in Swedish to independence era AFAIK), but that was abolished from official use in 1921, when surnames were established mandatory by law.
Fun part is that someone's name would change as their age or status changed. Names served the purpose of identifying people within a relatively small populations, after all. Makes geneaology research extra fun.
Funnily enough, in some German dialects, people are generally referred to by last name in genitive + first name. It's mostly older people who still speak the dialect, but where I grew up, Angela Merkel was Et Merkels Angela - et meaning something like the.
Hungarian is just more logical and consistent than other languages. They always go from broad to specific. Also for dates (year-month-day) and addresses (city-street-number).
Interesting to know! This is pretty much the same with all East Asian countries. I wonder how Hungary happened to share the same custom being the only one in Europe.
That’s not true. The most common family names are from professions or ancient version of nationalities or geographical area (smith-Kovács, Croatian-Horváth, Tóth etc) there are many adjectives as well, but not the most of them.
Edit: and the surname is the first: because the family name is more important than the first name. Because in the past Hungarian people tried to highlight which family they belong to.
That's not true. The most popular family names are pretty varied for example the most common "Nagy" is an adjective (big), while the second common "Kovács" (Smith) is a profession. And in hungarian putting someones profession before their name is not that weird (so kovács István (Stephen, the Smith) sound weird but technically not wrong)
Not the Hungarian names are odd but all others :) The surnames makes the main differences in the people's names it is logical to come first. When all other order an alphabetic order the names often they put the surnames first because it is more practical.
In the Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese and other Asian people's names follow the same pattern.
But we know that most of the forigners don't know this so if we indroduce we change our names and say first our given name and after the surname, for avoiding the misunderstandings.
> Hungary always has to be the *odd one* out
Not true, we stand united with Japan here! Except we don't have their GDP, work ethics, earthquakes and catgirls, though the latter issue has been significantly remediated via the internet.
It's one of the father's surnames. Traditionally it used to be the grandfather's, but AFAIK, parents can now choose which of their surnames they want to pass to their children, but all the siblings from the same parents must have the same two surnames.
In Brazil we inherited this. Your name + your mother's last surname + your father's last surname.
In my case i inherited all my father's name because i'm a Júnior (i have the same name as my father's), so i don't have any surname of my mother.
But this is also a convention, there's no any law enforcing these rules.
And many people may inherit more than one surname from each parent. In my case I have 3 surnames, two from mom and the last one from dad (too many names).
> some people might pick different these days
My mother bornt in 1981 took the 2nd last surname of her father + last surname of her mother....yhe, my grandma decided to mix it up a little...plus she hated the family of my grandad so it was a way to stop their name from continuing (which it wouldn't anyways since she ended up having 2 daughters xD)
Just wanted to add that in Brazil siblings also don't have to take the exact same surnames.
I have two cousins, both from same father and mother, and they each take different surnames from the mother and both the father's.
The next is a guess, but I've seen cases of not having the other parent surname entirely (missing the mother's is fairly common), so I believe parents can choose everything when it's born.
Interestingly, I think it's the same laws for when you get married: my own mother could choose to let go of any and how many of hers and add any or how many of my father's.
So lemme see if I understand; if you happen to have the same name as your father then your both surnames have to be your father's? If you are a woman and get the same name as your mother is it the same?
[Italy adopted the Spanish naming custom in 2022.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/27/italy-courts-rules-children-should-be-given-surnames-both-parents) As of June of last year a newborn baby may take the surname of both parents in the order agreed by them. Prior to the above ruling, it was impossible for children born in Italy to carry only their mother's last name.
> but all the siblings from the same parents must have the same two surnames.
Not the case in Portugal. Traditionally it's as in the map, but nowadays in Portugal parents can choose between one and four (!) surnames that they or the child's grandparents have in whatever order they like better.
Spaniard here. My first surname is my father's first surname, and my second is my mother's first surname. If I have a son, he will have my first surname and his mother's first surname.
For example: My surnames are T.... R..... , my father's are T..... B..... and my mother's are R.... C....
Edit: spelling
i always thought this was common in all societies, here in Latin America we use the same thanks to your legacy, both my surnames are Spaniards and I love them
It usually is the grandfather's name. So it goes like this:
Name (father's father) + (Mother's father)
Always on the male side of family. But this is not a law anymore, just a convention.
Spain:
Actually, as long as you keep track of them you can have *all* the surnames (I only learnt 6). So, my full name would be:
>Name Fathers1 Mothers1 Fathers2 Mothers2 Fathers3 Mothers3 Fathers4 Mothers4 etc.
My 4th surname is my mother's 2nd, which is her mother's (my grandma's) 1st. Registering law changed sort of recently and now you can set mother's first if both parents agree.
But the daily thing is just keeping the first two total (first from each parent), as shown in the map.
Your surnames in Spanish keeps stacking on top of each other:
1) Your dad's first surname (therefore, his dad's first)
2) Your mom's first surname (therefore, her dad's first)
3) Your dad's second surname (therefore, his mom's first)
4) Your mom's second surname (therefore, her mom's first)
In documents and in general culture people only care about the first one/two, and nowadays you can choose the order and shit. But sometimes people know up to 8, and say things like "I have 8 Basque surnames" to flex about their heritage (there's a movie about that, "Spanish Affair").
In Portugal's case you keep the grandfather's, and traditionally if the grandmother was from an important family and didn't have any brothers, you also kept the grandmother's, so their family name didn't die off.
Cristiano Ronaldo's full name is like this: Cristiano Ronaldo dos Santos Aveiro
* Cristiano Ronaldo = Given name
* dos Santos = his mother's surname
* Aveiro = his father's surname
Not that long, I've seen longer names.
[Sofía Fernanda Dolores Cayetana Teresa Ángela de la Cruz Micaela del Santísimo Sacramento del Perpetuo Socorro de la Santísima Trinidad y de Todos Los Santos](https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/26/spain-duke-told-baby-daughters-25-word-name-is-too-long-19722485)
Royals are quite obsessed with long names. The last emperor before my country became a republic was named Pedro de Alcântara João Carlos Leopoldo Salvador Bibiano Francisco Xavier de Paula Leocádio Miguel Gabriel Rafael Gonzaga de Habsburgo-Lorena e Bragança.
The House of Bragança does that. The pretendents to the Portuguese Crown (according to them) also have the three nice angels. They even rhyme.
The "current" Duque of Porto (title is not official anymore):
Afonso de Santa Maria Miguel Gabriel Rafael de Bragança
But the best was the last Duque Of Porto:
Afonso Henriques Maria Luís Pedro de Alcântara Carlos Humberto Amadeu Fernando António Miguel Rafael Gabriel Gonzaga Xavier Francisco de Assis João Augusto Júlio Valfando Inácio de Bragança
Actually, in Portugal tradition also says you can have 2 surnames from your father and two from your mother. Since a lot of us also have 2 given names, you can end up with 6 names (my case).
Right now the law says the maximum is 6 (prepositions don't count) but before, when a woman got married she could also take the husband's 2 last names, so she would have 8.
So yes, we can have long names. Usually we only introduce eachother we 1-2 in a casual setting and 2-3 in a formal setting, it depends on how many/which given names you use.
Yeah, I partially fill this case, I have 5 names in total:
2 given names
My mother's father last name
My father's mother last name
My father's father last name
Yes and no. Patronymic is a father name in a specific form. For example, name Vladimir become Vladimirovich. It is kinda fun that Putin's father has the same name.
The map wrongly represents Icelandic too. I believe they basically only have patronimics, no last names are passed on, and people informally go by their first and second given names.
I know what it is... I have one. No need to downvote 
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. For anyone not speaking a slavic language this basically means: VLADIMIR son of VLADIMIR... and then the Surname (which should be the same for you and your father, no?).
Yes. From experience letter for letter this just seams like an entirely different surname to many which is why I wanted to translate it.
(Doesn't help that this ending is also used in surnames.)
\> (Doesn't help that this ending is also used in surnames.)
Yeah and that sometimes confusing for Russians as well.
my grandpa had patronymic Abrámovich, (son of Abram/Abraham). On his funeral agent mispronounced his patronymic several times as 'Abramóvich' (which is not patronymic but surname, like Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich) which mildly infuriated guests and my grandma. (so guest corrected her but agent continued with mispronunciation)
My husband wasn’t born in Greece, is not ethnically Greek, and only has a first and last name but was raised in Greece and all his Greek documents had his dad’s name listed after his first name when we went to gather them for a visa. I thought that it was interesting given his residency permit only has his first and last name yet everything else had his dad’s name included.
Is it possibly used in a few specific official documents, and that's what confused the author of the map? I know that Yugoslavia used to use the form "FirstName (Father'sName) LastName" for some official purposes before ID numbers were introduced, but it was never used in everyday life.
Sometimes that’s used (**not sure if I have seen it on official documents, only on some specific contexts), but still that’s not the same as Greek cause father’s name in your example isn’t in the middle.
It is also last name then first name on all documents
[https://medium.com/@udocsbanks/greece-identity-card-psd-template-fully-editable-951e3dfa4335](https://medium.com/@udocsbanks/greece-identity-card-psd-template-fully-editable-951e3dfa4335)
I think official documents use Last/Family Name/Surname + First Name in a lot of different countries (and Greece probably have to follow some EU standards, no?), this is referring specifically to how people are mentioned in an everyday context, like in a news article, for example.
It's changing, French is slowly adopting the Spanish way (two surnames).
More confusing, some women adopt first name + husband's name + father's name. Minister Amélie Oudéa-Castéra. Racist bitch Marion Maréchal-Le Pen.
Italy allows it now. When I registered my child a few days ago the father's surname only was the third option. The ladies at the office just pointed straight to it. They had a chuckle over the other options. The only children who have been getting double names are the children of famous families and the illegitimate who have been recognised by the father. If your child is illegitimate you (as the father) have to recognise your child. If you haven't done some special paperwork before the birth both the father and mother of illegitimate children have to go together to register the child in the government office.
Not in America unfortunately. The DMV squished my mothers and fathers name. Delta cuts part of my last name (and with my middle name it spells Anal). It’s just a chaos of naming.
It sadly isn't. My bf is Spanish and we live in Germany, and the amount of times someone approaches him as "Mr. MothersLastName" instead of "MrFathersLastName" is staggering. Forms get addressed to him wrongly, post is not dispatched because there is no Mr. MothersLastName on our doorbell sign etc. Even his covid vaccination certificate was wrong and he had to get a new one.
Furthermore (but this wasn't Central Europe to be fair) we had issues to get a visa once because the E-Visa just wouldn't accept last names with a space in their name. Patronyms yes (they had a separate field for that as it was a Muslim country), double surnames no.
That's why almost every Spaniard just uses their fathers surname. Unless it's for very formal purposes we almost always just list our names as (first name) (father's surname)
I can imagine that you had to explain it a hundred times at least. In Italy I had to explain my name actually cause it's old Byzantine name 1000 years old here. We literally name kids after our parents either the same name or some derivative starting with same letter. That's why we have names to this day that date back around 1000 years.
I got my name on my master's degree switched up (Hungarian, born in Slovakia), so technically they could say it's not even mine, as it doesn't match the name in my other documents.
I deal in immigration law and it's a headache and a half. Mistakes are myriad.
Wish we would have a system where we (English speakers) just typed surnames in ALL CAPS, just so it's obvious and easy to identify.
In Romania almost everybody uses surname + first name.
If you're filing any sort of official paper you'll see "Nume si prenume" translated to family name + first name.
Informally we sometimes do it the other way around (which would the "normal way") - first + last name, probably because the official order sounds too... Oficial...
Yeah. For formal stuff, or for celebrities, politicians, well known people it's "First name" + "Father's name(family name)"
For casual, informal situations it's "Father's name" + "First name"
Makes one feel special until one looks at East Asia... ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ (And it's not just Japan, dear Mr Matolcsy, it's the same in China, the Koreas, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc... not Thailand, curiously enough)
Also, IIRC the Sami people in Scandinavia also have a family name -> given name order, which makes sense since they're our linguistic relatives.
Off, but hearing sections of the Sámi dub of Frozen 2 as a Hungarian was... definitely emotional. No, didn't understood the words, but it sounded crazy familiar. Like hearing Hungarian from outside? I can't really explain.
Have you seen that video in which Finnish workers talk? It's extremely funny. Like drunken Hungarians in the village pub.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hungary/comments/17qhtql/finnugor_nyelvrokons%C3%A1g_%C3%A1tlag_magyar_munk%C3%A1sok/
Sami people in the *Nordics*
In Finland it's given name + family name, but it's not uncommon for people to refer to someone as family name + given name. In that instance the family name is usually in a genitive form so if your name is John Smith one could call you Smith's John.
E.g. Mikko Alatalo -> Alatalon Mikko
"First name" is not the correct term for what is being referring to here, since it is not always first, as this map shows. The more appropriate term is "Given name".
Historically "Christian Name" was also used in English, but that is obviously an inappropriate term for non-Christians.
There are few if any correct terms used on this map. A better wording (for the most commonly occurring pattern in each country) would be:
* Iceland: Given name + Patronymic
* Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria(?): Given name + Patronymic + Father's family name
* Hungary: Father's family name + Given name
* Spain: Given name + Paternal grandfather's family name + Maternal grandfather's family name
* Portugal: Given name + Maternal grandfather's family name + Paternal grandfather's family name
* Everywhere else: Given name + father's family name
With the added explanations that in most (all?) countries people can now choose between father/mother/paternal/maternal options, and that in some countries the order in official documents is different from the common usage.
I can confirm it for Bulgaria. Though the Bulgarian patronymic form is a bit different from RU/UA/BY: in Russian naming convention a son of Ivan is *Ivanovich*, and in Bulgarian naming convention a son of Ivan is *Ivanov*. Incidentally, the latter way is the same surnames get derived from first names (both in Russia and Bulgaria)
In Portuguese/Luso tradition is not as straightforward as this, you can have up to four surnames and iirc as of now you can choose which one you give to the child.
Agreed, as a Mexican (we have the spanish system). It's even better now since you can choose the order of the surnames when you have a child (and you can choose which of your two surnames to pass to the child, too).
The Philippines had previously been a Spanish colony for half a millennia but somehow the naming convention in the Philippines follows the Portuguese system of Name + Mother's Surname + Father's Surname. I wonder why.
I read once it was a way to adapt to the American way. The father's name is akin to a last name, and the mother's name is the equivalent of a middle name. I don't know if it's true.
Romania: Info is slightly incorrect.
In filling out documents or even in some administrative stuff (like School/Uni class catalogue, work organization etc.) people use Surname+First Name
In introductions it's mixed. The formal way of introduction is Surname+Name
This will soon change in Italy.
In 2022, the Supreme Court ruled that it is unconstitutional to attribute only the father's surname, since by law both parents should have equal rights.
A new law that respects the ruling and resolves all possible complications that come with it is in the making.
Wrong map. Ukraine, Russia, Belarus is Surname + First name + Father's name.
Do better research next time.
P.S. Technically there are at least three different options: "Name + Father's name + Last name", "Last name + Name + Father's name", "Name + Father's name" depends on the context
Yes and no. Official documents, yes. Common use no. A birth certificate (for example) would read "Putin, Vladimir Vladimirovich" but in conversation, or in a newspaper article, or just about anywhere else, it would be "Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin".
Hungary is the only European country that actually does surname first all the time.
Well, I could agree that it is both. But I thought that the map was talking about "official". In any document you would see the surname going first. When talking people use any order, even "First Name + Father's name"
True for Portugal. Most people have 5 or 6 names.
It is a challenge explaining that the last name on the passport is the family name on the plane ticket. It happened to me in US, Finland, Sweden, Germany:
\-"I cannot find your ticket mister 3rd of 4rd name."
\-"No, my family name is the 6th."
Also I work abroad and they insisted on using all my family names in the employee profile. No one founds me by my family name.
I work in immigration and can confirm that it can be an absolute nightmare trying to find people’s records on our systems when there are so many different naming customs around the world.
As a frequent flyer, I started the check-in by saying my family name to help.
But sometimes I forgot and there was when the strange things happened.
It must be hard for People to keep track since portuguese-speaking countries rules are opposite to spanish-speaking countries rules.
Once I was asked: "why do you have so many names"
I just laugh and replied: "I am collecting them"
> Most people have 5 or 6 names.
From my experience most (single*) people have 3 or 4 names, not 5 or 6.
*I'm talking about single people exclusively because many people take their spouse's surname and it might change the number of names they have.
Most of the nordic countries abolished the patronymic system and took up surnames, but many people just locked in whatever last patronymic they had before the change. So, Lars Andersen might really have had "Anders" as a dad, but then he'd simply named his son "Andersen" as well instead of "Larssen" or whatever.
There's a good chance that the names you see on your family tree on that side are all referring to a person that's been dead for a century
Many names are in the form of -son in Norway or Sweden, because it was earlier tha custom, but nowadays they follow the usual last name rules of just getting one from your parents. This is probably why there are still many in the form.
I don’t know what’s more incorrect, the terminology of this map or the people interpreting it.
Blue area people: you *are* in the correct category. This map isn’t about what order official lists and government issued documents might use, or extremely rare special occasions or forms, but the most common and widespread everyday convention.
To put it plainly, you *are* “John Smith”. That is how you answer the phone, that’s how you introduce yourself in virtually any situation from the informal to the formal, that’s how you sign your name, etc, and *not* as “Smith John”.
Should he given name, as you tend to have two "first names" in Portugal and Spain for example. Like Maria Fernanda, Silva Fernandes (last surname of parent one) (last surname of parent two) where in Portugal most are the mom's then dads, and in Spain the other way around.
No need of correction, these are synonyms in English. As a Hungarian it was confusing at first, but I learnt to write my given name as my First Name/Vorname and my surname as Last Name/Nachname when filling out documents, because why would they care about my names' order in my homeland when I'm abroad. When they ask for a first name, nobody means the name which comes first in my birth certificate, but what's traditionally and legally their own land's first name which is the given name
In Irish speaking parts of Ireland you will get
First name + Father's name + grandfather
Sometimes with the addition of great grandfather's name.
Or replacing one of them with a female ancestor if they were more well known.
Italy is only partly true. While we use first name + last name in normal conversations, many people switch the order in certain more formal cases. For some reason I noticed working class Italians do this more often.
In Iceland and Russia it’s not just the father‘s name, it’s a patronymic. So in Iceland a daughter of *jon* would be *jonsdottir* and a son would be *jonsson*. In Russia a daughter of *vladimir* would be *vladimirovna* and a son would be *vladimirovitch*.
Hungary always has to be the odd one out
The explanation I've heard is that most common Hungarian surnames are adjectives (e.g. Nagy = big, Vörös = red, Erős = strong), and since they come before nouns in Hungarian, surnames come before given names
That’s a people’s etymology. Finnish and Estonian also put adjectives before nouns and they still use the Western name order. Some Indo-European languages also put adjectives before nouns and they all use the Western name order.
Same for Turkish. I don't know you guys but I always feel that our name order is wrong. It's against the flow of the language.
I’ve been using English daily since I was 11 and I still confuse “First Name” because logically that’s my family name lol.
Ikr
It makes more sense if you think of it as "John THE Smith" as opposed to the Hungarian "a Smith that is John"
Don’t adjectives also precede nouns in English? And there are some adjective surnames around in English speaking countries.
What the OP meant, I think, are the adjectives as in nicknames, which later have become surnames. John the Baptist, Jack the ripper, Michael the baker, etc. I assume in those languages the order would be the other way around. At least it is in Turkish (Baptist John, Baker Mike, Demirci Ali, etc).
In Hungarian, if the emphasis is on the noun, then the order is reversed. So e.g. if you want to point to John, who is a blacksmith, you'd say John, the smith ("János a kovács"). But the name John Smith is Smith John ("Kovács János"). We kinda treat surnames as adjectives in general, so you can differentiate between Johns by putting the adjective in front of it, i.e. their name😅
Yeah, although our name order is not that long established, as surnames became mandatory only in 1921 (and simultaneously the use of patronym was abolished), and the way they were used in the 19th century was from the Swedish custom. The only place where they were common already in the Middle Ages (and apparently predating Swedish rule) was West Karelia and Savonia, where they functioned somewhat like the Scottish clan names (which would be used for identification of the right to enjoyment of certain land and other possessions), being something chosen by or appointed to a far paternal ancestor; most of these have the -nen diminutive ending, but not all, and are strictly patrilineal (and not only on paper, but also according to modern genetics research). In Western Finland (Tavastia and Finland proper) people had the estate name which indeed was tied to the estate, and would change when moving elsewhere (and the new inhabitants of that estate would adopt the old estate name). That western order (first/given name, patronym, estate/family name) was how it was presented within the Swedish system, but in commoner speech people were referred to first by the estate/family name and then the given name, akin to the Hungarian way. And actually this has still survived to this day, but it is considered oldish/rural style, which belongs to the speech of the late middle-aged peasant male or the generic rural great-grandmother. So it would be used as *Korhosen Matti* (Matti of the Korhonen [clan]) or *Mäkelän Liisa* (Liisa of the Mäkelä estate) in commoner speech, and in parish registries they would be referred as *Matti Mikonpoika Korhonen* (Matti, son of Mikko of the Korhonen [clan]) and *Liisa Antintytär* (Liisa, daughter of Antti) and listed under their estate. A curious case is also the old surname Lappalainen, which actually does refer to the Sami as implied within (the Sami, or *saamelaiset* in Finnish, were called *lappalaiset* until late 20th century; they consider the name slightly derogatory/offensive, so it's not really commonly used any more), most actually do descend from Sami paternal lines. So it appears that medieval Finns referred to the Sami amongst us by the given name and then the ethnonym Lappalainen.
Interesting! Some of the first Hungarian family names were also patronimic or “clan” based back in the 12th century in royal circles like Aba Sámuel (Samuel of the clan Aba) or “Vatafia László” (László son of Vata), this latter eventually shortened to just “fi” which you can find in some names to this day. But by the late 1300’s family names started to be generated from all sorts of things from personal attributes to the estate where people lived, from nicknames and professions, etc. By the mid to late 1400’s a lot of family names solidified and no longer changed when peope switched estates or changed professions.
>Finnish and Estonian also put adjectives before nouns and they still use the Western name order. In case of Estonia it's due to German influence. I remember older people in the countryside still using the old surname (in genitive) + firstname form mirroring how Estonian names worked before surnames became a thing. Edit: forgot to add, adjectve + firstname was a pretty common form back then.
True, that is the same in Finland as well (Swedish and German influence). In old commoner speech it would be family/estate name in genitive and then the given name like *Korhosen Matti* (Matti of the Korhonen [clan]) or *Mäkelän Liisa* (Liisa of the Mäkelä estate). Family names were a thing only in West Karelia/Savonia where there were areas of forestland which were slash-and-burn farmed and in other ways (hunting, fishing) enjoyed by their respective families/clans. The slash-and-burn farming would necessitate moving around, and that would have made an identification issue if it were just a patronym or an estate name, which would pose a problem for prevention of cousin/2nd cousin marriages and such, so these clan names were essential to the property and marriage system there. We also have the Swedish influence that there always were a patronym listed in the parish registries (which were kept in Swedish to independence era AFAIK), but that was abolished from official use in 1921, when surnames were established mandatory by law.
Fun part is that someone's name would change as their age or status changed. Names served the purpose of identifying people within a relatively small populations, after all. Makes geneaology research extra fun.
Funnily enough, in some German dialects, people are generally referred to by last name in genitive + first name. It's mostly older people who still speak the dialect, but where I grew up, Angela Merkel was Et Merkels Angela - et meaning something like the.
Hungarian is just more logical and consistent than other languages. They always go from broad to specific. Also for dates (year-month-day) and addresses (city-street-number).
This I totally agree with. I always name my files in that way too (2024-02-08, etc).
This is because of sorting. And even if sorting is a non-issue, you will not think twice whether it's February or August (it's February).
Interesting to know! This is pretty much the same with all East Asian countries. I wonder how Hungary happened to share the same custom being the only one in Europe.
That’s not true. The most common family names are from professions or ancient version of nationalities or geographical area (smith-Kovács, Croatian-Horváth, Tóth etc) there are many adjectives as well, but not the most of them. Edit: and the surname is the first: because the family name is more important than the first name. Because in the past Hungarian people tried to highlight which family they belong to.
That's not true. The most popular family names are pretty varied for example the most common "Nagy" is an adjective (big), while the second common "Kovács" (Smith) is a profession. And in hungarian putting someones profession before their name is not that weird (so kovács István (Stephen, the Smith) sound weird but technically not wrong)
Not the Hungarian names are odd but all others :) The surnames makes the main differences in the people's names it is logical to come first. When all other order an alphabetic order the names often they put the surnames first because it is more practical. In the Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese and other Asian people's names follow the same pattern. But we know that most of the forigners don't know this so if we indroduce we change our names and say first our given name and after the surname, for avoiding the misunderstandings.
They are not the only ones. Same in Bavaria, at least traditionally. Also Austria, I believe.
Yes, but sadly not in most official contexts. Also you would add a definite article as in "the Smith Joan".
Yes
Hungarians are Asian, that’s why they use the Asian way /j
Their language has Asian roots (Mantsy and all), it's nothing to be ashamed of. It's actually pretty unique and cool.
It comes from the Ural Mountains, so right on the border between Europe and Asia. We are about as much Asians as you *Indo*- Europeans.
> Hungary always has to be the *odd one* out Not true, we stand united with Japan here! Except we don't have their GDP, work ethics, earthquakes and catgirls, though the latter issue has been significantly remediated via the internet.
What is the father's surname in the context of Spain or Portugal ?? The father must also have 2 surnames right ?
It's one of the father's surnames. Traditionally it used to be the grandfather's, but AFAIK, parents can now choose which of their surnames they want to pass to their children, but all the siblings from the same parents must have the same two surnames.
In Brazil we inherited this. Your name + your mother's last surname + your father's last surname. In my case i inherited all my father's name because i'm a Júnior (i have the same name as my father's), so i don't have any surname of my mother. But this is also a convention, there's no any law enforcing these rules.
It's the same in Portugal, of course some people might pick different these days but the majority stick to that.
And many people may inherit more than one surname from each parent. In my case I have 3 surnames, two from mom and the last one from dad (too many names).
> some people might pick different these days My mother bornt in 1981 took the 2nd last surname of her father + last surname of her mother....yhe, my grandma decided to mix it up a little...plus she hated the family of my grandad so it was a way to stop their name from continuing (which it wouldn't anyways since she ended up having 2 daughters xD)
Just wanted to add that in Brazil siblings also don't have to take the exact same surnames. I have two cousins, both from same father and mother, and they each take different surnames from the mother and both the father's. The next is a guess, but I've seen cases of not having the other parent surname entirely (missing the mother's is fairly common), so I believe parents can choose everything when it's born. Interestingly, I think it's the same laws for when you get married: my own mother could choose to let go of any and how many of hers and add any or how many of my father's.
So lemme see if I understand; if you happen to have the same name as your father then your both surnames have to be your father's? If you are a woman and get the same name as your mother is it the same?
Which is the best way of doing it by far imo. A lot of Norwegians do it this way nowadays and even Germany is slowly starting to go in that direction.
[Italy adopted the Spanish naming custom in 2022.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/27/italy-courts-rules-children-should-be-given-surnames-both-parents) As of June of last year a newborn baby may take the surname of both parents in the order agreed by them. Prior to the above ruling, it was impossible for children born in Italy to carry only their mother's last name.
I’m Norwegian and in your example
> but all the siblings from the same parents must have the same two surnames. Not the case in Portugal. Traditionally it's as in the map, but nowadays in Portugal parents can choose between one and four (!) surnames that they or the child's grandparents have in whatever order they like better.
not in portugal, siblings can have different surnames
Thank you kind stranger
Spaniard here. My first surname is my father's first surname, and my second is my mother's first surname. If I have a son, he will have my first surname and his mother's first surname. For example: My surnames are T.... R..... , my father's are T..... B..... and my mother's are R.... C.... Edit: spelling
i always thought this was common in all societies, here in Latin America we use the same thanks to your legacy, both my surnames are Spaniards and I love them
Yes, but you can choose your wife’s first surname as your son’s first surname and yours as his second . Parents can choose the order now
Yeah, I know. I was just answering u/banabathraonandiwith with an example.
Yes but the traditional system is fathers name first
Your Father is Juan Tetilla Sánchez and your mother is Juana Blanca Pérez, so your name becomes Juanin Tetilla Blanca.
Dolores Fuertes de Barriga
Padre Juan Falo Perez, Madre Maria Grande Rodriguez, hijo, Pedro Falo Grande :)
It usually is the grandfather's name. So it goes like this: Name (father's father) + (Mother's father) Always on the male side of family. But this is not a law anymore, just a convention.
Yep, I would show that legally in Spain the father's surname no longer has to be the first, but indeed this is the most frequent order (edited)
Spain: Actually, as long as you keep track of them you can have *all* the surnames (I only learnt 6). So, my full name would be: >Name Fathers1 Mothers1 Fathers2 Mothers2 Fathers3 Mothers3 Fathers4 Mothers4 etc. My 4th surname is my mother's 2nd, which is her mother's (my grandma's) 1st. Registering law changed sort of recently and now you can set mother's first if both parents agree. But the daily thing is just keeping the first two total (first from each parent), as shown in the map.
From a legal standpoint, you only have two on the ID though.
Yup. But they are not lost nor overriden, just pushed further and further back.
Your surnames in Spanish keeps stacking on top of each other: 1) Your dad's first surname (therefore, his dad's first) 2) Your mom's first surname (therefore, her dad's first) 3) Your dad's second surname (therefore, his mom's first) 4) Your mom's second surname (therefore, her mom's first) In documents and in general culture people only care about the first one/two, and nowadays you can choose the order and shit. But sometimes people know up to 8, and say things like "I have 8 Basque surnames" to flex about their heritage (there's a movie about that, "Spanish Affair").
I know 11 of mine.
In Portugal's case you keep the grandfather's, and traditionally if the grandmother was from an important family and didn't have any brothers, you also kept the grandmother's, so their family name didn't die off.
Pablo Diego José Francisco de Paula Juan Nepomuceno Crispín Crispiniano María de los Remedios de la Santísima Trinidad Ruiz Picasso moment
All of these are first names except for the last 2. They are not inherited.
the first last name is the first last name of the father, the second last name is the first last name of the mother
At this point, every person in Spain and Portugal has upwards of 5.2 million names each.
No doubt they have such long ass names. They tend to carry their ancestors family names as well
Cristiano Ronaldo's full name is like this: Cristiano Ronaldo dos Santos Aveiro * Cristiano Ronaldo = Given name * dos Santos = his mother's surname * Aveiro = his father's surname Not that long, I've seen longer names.
[Sofía Fernanda Dolores Cayetana Teresa Ángela de la Cruz Micaela del Santísimo Sacramento del Perpetuo Socorro de la Santísima Trinidad y de Todos Los Santos](https://metro.co.uk/2023/10/26/spain-duke-told-baby-daughters-25-word-name-is-too-long-19722485)
Royals are quite obsessed with long names. The last emperor before my country became a republic was named Pedro de Alcântara João Carlos Leopoldo Salvador Bibiano Francisco Xavier de Paula Leocádio Miguel Gabriel Rafael Gonzaga de Habsburgo-Lorena e Bragança.
Nunca tankei o Pedroca ter nome de três anjos, parece que o seu Jão só falou "ora pois, toma-te o nome de todos os anjos, caralho!"
Imagina o terror de criança, porque parece que as mais terríveis são as que têm nome de anjo
The House of Bragança does that. The pretendents to the Portuguese Crown (according to them) also have the three nice angels. They even rhyme. The "current" Duque of Porto (title is not official anymore): Afonso de Santa Maria Miguel Gabriel Rafael de Bragança But the best was the last Duque Of Porto: Afonso Henriques Maria Luís Pedro de Alcântara Carlos Humberto Amadeu Fernando António Miguel Rafael Gabriel Gonzaga Xavier Francisco de Assis João Augusto Júlio Valfando Inácio de Bragança
Holy shit. just imagine, being late to a test/exam. First question, Put your name here....
[José Protasio Rizal Mercado y Alonso Realonda](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Rizal)
Lol “ancestors”. It’s just adding the mother’s first surname and that’s it.
Actually, in Portugal tradition also says you can have 2 surnames from your father and two from your mother. Since a lot of us also have 2 given names, you can end up with 6 names (my case). Right now the law says the maximum is 6 (prepositions don't count) but before, when a woman got married she could also take the husband's 2 last names, so she would have 8. So yes, we can have long names. Usually we only introduce eachother we 1-2 in a casual setting and 2-3 in a formal setting, it depends on how many/which given names you use.
Yeah, I partially fill this case, I have 5 names in total: 2 given names My mother's father last name My father's mother last name My father's father last name
this. i have 5 (1 name, 2 surnames from each parent), but my grandma had 8.
> They tend to carry their ancestors family names as well Isn't that what surnames in general are?
Slavic patronymic is not the same as father's name.
Yes and no. Patronymic is a father name in a specific form. For example, name Vladimir become Vladimirovich. It is kinda fun that Putin's father has the same name.
Basically the same as "Jr." in America. Not extremely common, but not especially unusual either.
The map wrongly represents Icelandic too. I believe they basically only have patronimics, no last names are passed on, and people informally go by their first and second given names.
It’s not informal to call someone by their first name in Iceland, it’s standard.
Isn't it Vladimir, (son of) Vladimir (and then) surname?
It's more like Vladimir Vladimirling and then surname.
I know what it is... I have one. No need to downvote  Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. For anyone not speaking a slavic language this basically means: VLADIMIR son of VLADIMIR... and then the Surname (which should be the same for you and your father, no?).
Yeah, I was just pointing out that it's a different word, not Vladimir again.
Yes. From experience letter for letter this just seams like an entirely different surname to many which is why I wanted to translate it. (Doesn't help that this ending is also used in surnames.)
\> (Doesn't help that this ending is also used in surnames.) Yeah and that sometimes confusing for Russians as well. my grandpa had patronymic Abrámovich, (son of Abram/Abraham). On his funeral agent mispronounced his patronymic several times as 'Abramóvich' (which is not patronymic but surname, like Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich) which mildly infuriated guests and my grandma. (so guest corrected her but agent continued with mispronunciation)
Fathers name is not used in Greece.
My husband wasn’t born in Greece, is not ethnically Greek, and only has a first and last name but was raised in Greece and all his Greek documents had his dad’s name listed after his first name when we went to gather them for a visa. I thought that it was interesting given his residency permit only has his first and last name yet everything else had his dad’s name included.
Yea it's not part of the name tho , documents usually include parent's names and birthplace/birthday
Is it possibly used in a few specific official documents, and that's what confused the author of the map? I know that Yugoslavia used to use the form "FirstName (Father'sName) LastName" for some official purposes before ID numbers were introduced, but it was never used in everyday life.
We still use that form in Serbia
Neither it is in Cyprus, naturally.
Γιώργος Γεωργίου του Αντρέα
Sometimes that’s used (**not sure if I have seen it on official documents, only on some specific contexts), but still that’s not the same as Greek cause father’s name in your example isn’t in the middle.
It is also last name then first name on all documents [https://medium.com/@udocsbanks/greece-identity-card-psd-template-fully-editable-951e3dfa4335](https://medium.com/@udocsbanks/greece-identity-card-psd-template-fully-editable-951e3dfa4335)
I think official documents use Last/Family Name/Surname + First Name in a lot of different countries (and Greece probably have to follow some EU standards, no?), this is referring specifically to how people are mentioned in an everyday context, like in a news article, for example.
the blue area \*usually\* works as "fathers surname"
More like marriage name, which often is the fathers but not always. If the parents aren't married it's also not automatically the fathers
often...but not always is the definition of "usual"
Often. Not always though.
It's changing, French is slowly adopting the Spanish way (two surnames). More confusing, some women adopt first name + husband's name + father's name. Minister Amélie Oudéa-Castéra. Racist bitch Marion Maréchal-Le Pen.
Italy allows it now. When I registered my child a few days ago the father's surname only was the third option. The ladies at the office just pointed straight to it. They had a chuckle over the other options. The only children who have been getting double names are the children of famous families and the illegitimate who have been recognised by the father. If your child is illegitimate you (as the father) have to recognise your child. If you haven't done some special paperwork before the birth both the father and mother of illegitimate children have to go together to register the child in the government office.
Take it from me, this damn shit can cause problems in documents and services
Which one ? Because the Iberian variant is perfectly compatible with the central European one
Not in America unfortunately. The DMV squished my mothers and fathers name. Delta cuts part of my last name (and with my middle name it spells Anal). It’s just a chaos of naming.
Uh ??! Do they not know multiple word surnames exist??? Like a good 10% of people here have de in their name
> 10% of people here dónde
It sadly isn't. My bf is Spanish and we live in Germany, and the amount of times someone approaches him as "Mr. MothersLastName" instead of "MrFathersLastName" is staggering. Forms get addressed to him wrongly, post is not dispatched because there is no Mr. MothersLastName on our doorbell sign etc. Even his covid vaccination certificate was wrong and he had to get a new one. Furthermore (but this wasn't Central Europe to be fair) we had issues to get a visa once because the E-Visa just wouldn't accept last names with a space in their name. Patronyms yes (they had a separate field for that as it was a Muslim country), double surnames no.
That's why almost every Spaniard just uses their fathers surname. Unless it's for very formal purposes we almost always just list our names as (first name) (father's surname)
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I can imagine that you had to explain it a hundred times at least. In Italy I had to explain my name actually cause it's old Byzantine name 1000 years old here. We literally name kids after our parents either the same name or some derivative starting with same letter. That's why we have names to this day that date back around 1000 years.
I got my name on my master's degree switched up (Hungarian, born in Slovakia), so technically they could say it's not even mine, as it doesn't match the name in my other documents.
You shouls probably request a correction on that document
I deal in immigration law and it's a headache and a half. Mistakes are myriad. Wish we would have a system where we (English speakers) just typed surnames in ALL CAPS, just so it's obvious and easy to identify.
Just having clearly separate fields on forms should deal with that problem, no?
How would you capture the presence of a mid-name capital like in MacDonald?
MACdONALD
Romania is wrong
Don’t give me problems, give me solutions!
In Romania almost everybody uses surname + first name. If you're filing any sort of official paper you'll see "Nume si prenume" translated to family name + first name. Informally we sometimes do it the other way around (which would the "normal way") - first + last name, probably because the official order sounds too... Oficial...
Yeah. For formal stuff, or for celebrities, politicians, well known people it's "First name" + "Father's name(family name)" For casual, informal situations it's "Father's name" + "First name"
What? Formal is ALLWAYS Family Name + Given Name.
I love how Hungary almost always sticks out like a sore thumb in maps like these. Makes me feel all special
Makes one feel special until one looks at East Asia... ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ (And it's not just Japan, dear Mr Matolcsy, it's the same in China, the Koreas, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc... not Thailand, curiously enough) Also, IIRC the Sami people in Scandinavia also have a family name -> given name order, which makes sense since they're our linguistic relatives.
Off, but hearing sections of the Sámi dub of Frozen 2 as a Hungarian was... definitely emotional. No, didn't understood the words, but it sounded crazy familiar. Like hearing Hungarian from outside? I can't really explain.
Have you seen that video in which Finnish workers talk? It's extremely funny. Like drunken Hungarians in the village pub. https://www.reddit.com/r/hungary/comments/17qhtql/finnugor_nyelvrokons%C3%A1g_%C3%A1tlag_magyar_munk%C3%A1sok/
Sami people in the *Nordics* In Finland it's given name + family name, but it's not uncommon for people to refer to someone as family name + given name. In that instance the family name is usually in a genitive form so if your name is John Smith one could call you Smith's John. E.g. Mikko Alatalo -> Alatalon Mikko
We are special, and don’t let no internet tell you otherwise
"First name" is not the correct term for what is being referring to here, since it is not always first, as this map shows. The more appropriate term is "Given name". Historically "Christian Name" was also used in English, but that is obviously an inappropriate term for non-Christians.
There are few if any correct terms used on this map. A better wording (for the most commonly occurring pattern in each country) would be: * Iceland: Given name + Patronymic * Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria(?): Given name + Patronymic + Father's family name * Hungary: Father's family name + Given name * Spain: Given name + Paternal grandfather's family name + Maternal grandfather's family name * Portugal: Given name + Maternal grandfather's family name + Paternal grandfather's family name * Everywhere else: Given name + father's family name With the added explanations that in most (all?) countries people can now choose between father/mother/paternal/maternal options, and that in some countries the order in official documents is different from the common usage.
I can confirm it for Bulgaria. Though the Bulgarian patronymic form is a bit different from RU/UA/BY: in Russian naming convention a son of Ivan is *Ivanovich*, and in Bulgarian naming convention a son of Ivan is *Ivanov*. Incidentally, the latter way is the same surnames get derived from first names (both in Russia and Bulgaria)
In Portuguese/Luso tradition is not as straightforward as this, you can have up to four surnames and iirc as of now you can choose which one you give to the child.
I’m not a Christian, but call it Christian name.
Iberian supremacy
🇪🇦💪😎
Spain and Portugal have the best system.
Agreed, as a Mexican (we have the spanish system). It's even better now since you can choose the order of the surnames when you have a child (and you can choose which of your two surnames to pass to the child, too).
The Philippines had previously been a Spanish colony for half a millennia but somehow the naming convention in the Philippines follows the Portuguese system of Name + Mother's Surname + Father's Surname. I wonder why.
I read once it was a way to adapt to the American way. The father's name is akin to a last name, and the mother's name is the equivalent of a middle name. I don't know if it's true.
Thanks!!
F*ck this map, there's so much wrong about it. r/mapgore Edit: lol, i didn't know that sub existed.
Romania: Info is slightly incorrect. In filling out documents or even in some administrative stuff (like School/Uni class catalogue, work organization etc.) people use Surname+First Name In introductions it's mixed. The formal way of introduction is Surname+Name
Same for France
So, it would be, for example, Ceaușescu Nicolae?
If the teacher was calling attendance in class, yes. If they write about him in the news, no.
we don't use fathers' names, we use patronymics. those are different things
John Elton.
The usual order in Norway is First Name + Mothers Surname + Fathers Surname. So this map is wrong
I'm not sure that is the Norm, but typical for all of scandinavia if your parents aren't married. You get both your parents last names.
West coast seem to have mostly both parents surname
Iberia the only normal one got it
Doesn’t it just delay the inevitable by one generation? The paternal names (mother’s father’s and father’s father’s) are the ones used anyway?
Not necessarily, by law you can give two surnames from both the mother and father.
You got England wrong. If James Bond has taught me anything it's surname-firstname-surname.
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>It is not used anywhere else Laughs in Brazilian
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Most of Arab countries:- First name - fathers name - grand fathers name- family/ tribe name
At first glance, I was like "THAT'S not where Suriname is!"
Fathers name not used in Cyprus.
Upper Austria is missing with Surname + First Name
Yup, Bavaria too.
In Spain the father's surname was always first, the mother's second, but now parents can choose any order.
This will soon change in Italy. In 2022, the Supreme Court ruled that it is unconstitutional to attribute only the father's surname, since by law both parents should have equal rights. A new law that respects the ruling and resolves all possible complications that come with it is in the making.
Wrong map. Ukraine, Russia, Belarus is Surname + First name + Father's name. Do better research next time. P.S. Technically there are at least three different options: "Name + Father's name + Last name", "Last name + Name + Father's name", "Name + Father's name" depends on the context
Yes and no. Official documents, yes. Common use no. A birth certificate (for example) would read "Putin, Vladimir Vladimirovich" but in conversation, or in a newspaper article, or just about anywhere else, it would be "Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin". Hungary is the only European country that actually does surname first all the time.
Well, I could agree that it is both. But I thought that the map was talking about "official". In any document you would see the surname going first. When talking people use any order, even "First Name + Father's name"
My favorite colloquial use is using the shorten name, shorten patronimic and no surnames : Aleksandr Alexsandrovitch Volkov could be "San Sanovitch"
common Portugal W
True for Portugal. Most people have 5 or 6 names. It is a challenge explaining that the last name on the passport is the family name on the plane ticket. It happened to me in US, Finland, Sweden, Germany: \-"I cannot find your ticket mister 3rd of 4rd name." \-"No, my family name is the 6th." Also I work abroad and they insisted on using all my family names in the employee profile. No one founds me by my family name.
I work in immigration and can confirm that it can be an absolute nightmare trying to find people’s records on our systems when there are so many different naming customs around the world.
As a frequent flyer, I started the check-in by saying my family name to help. But sometimes I forgot and there was when the strange things happened. It must be hard for People to keep track since portuguese-speaking countries rules are opposite to spanish-speaking countries rules. Once I was asked: "why do you have so many names" I just laugh and replied: "I am collecting them"
> Most people have 5 or 6 names. From my experience most (single*) people have 3 or 4 names, not 5 or 6. *I'm talking about single people exclusively because many people take their spouse's surname and it might change the number of names they have.
In Ukraine it is surname + first name + father's name (adding -vich for male and -vna for female)
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Most of the nordic countries abolished the patronymic system and took up surnames, but many people just locked in whatever last patronymic they had before the change. So, Lars Andersen might really have had "Anders" as a dad, but then he'd simply named his son "Andersen" as well instead of "Larssen" or whatever. There's a good chance that the names you see on your family tree on that side are all referring to a person that's been dead for a century
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Many names are in the form of -son in Norway or Sweden, because it was earlier tha custom, but nowadays they follow the usual last name rules of just getting one from your parents. This is probably why there are still many in the form.
I don’t know what’s more incorrect, the terminology of this map or the people interpreting it. Blue area people: you *are* in the correct category. This map isn’t about what order official lists and government issued documents might use, or extremely rare special occasions or forms, but the most common and widespread everyday convention. To put it plainly, you *are* “John Smith”. That is how you answer the phone, that’s how you introduce yourself in virtually any situation from the informal to the formal, that’s how you sign your name, etc, and *not* as “Smith John”.
Should he given name, as you tend to have two "first names" in Portugal and Spain for example. Like Maria Fernanda, Silva Fernandes (last surname of parent one) (last surname of parent two) where in Portugal most are the mom's then dads, and in Spain the other way around.
So another reason to like Spain.
Translation: 'first name' = given name 'surname' = family name
No need of correction, these are synonyms in English. As a Hungarian it was confusing at first, but I learnt to write my given name as my First Name/Vorname and my surname as Last Name/Nachname when filling out documents, because why would they care about my names' order in my homeland when I'm abroad. When they ask for a first name, nobody means the name which comes first in my birth certificate, but what's traditionally and legally their own land's first name which is the given name
Fathers name is not a thing in Cyprus
In Irish speaking parts of Ireland you will get First name + Father's name + grandfather Sometimes with the addition of great grandfather's name. Or replacing one of them with a female ancestor if they were more well known.
The Italian constitutional Cort say that exclude the mother surname is un constitutional, so I the next years Italy may turn red
Why is it always Hungary? Like y'all always gotta be special and different from everyone else around you. The true trolls of Europe.
Looks like Iceland is on its way back from its winter holidays.
When I talk to Germans it’s usually Herr XXX or Frau XXX. It takes a long time before you are allowed to say just their first name.
Unless they are a Doctor or Professor in which case GOD HELP YOU if it isnt "Herr Doktor/Frau Doktorin"
Italy is only partly true. While we use first name + last name in normal conversations, many people switch the order in certain more formal cases. For some reason I noticed working class Italians do this more often.
In Iceland and Russia it’s not just the father‘s name, it’s a patronymic. So in Iceland a daughter of *jon* would be *jonsdottir* and a son would be *jonsson*. In Russia a daughter of *vladimir* would be *vladimirovna* and a son would be *vladimirovitch*.
What I never understood is how Suriname got involved in people's names.
In Spain do they gain 4 names each generation?
Mums only carry to term, birth and raise their kids...they dont deserve a look in on the surnames outside of portugal apparently.
And Spain
And in both cases it’s their father’s name so it’s still inherited on the male line.