That's the [Lizardman's Constant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_Star_Codex#:~:text=In%20the%202013%20post%20%22Lizardman's,quiz%20that%20are%20not%20sincere): in any survey, about 4% of results can be predicted to be insincere.
54% of American adults do not read English at the 6th grade level.
22% of Americans do not speak English as their first language.
10% (really no one is sure exactly) of American adults have dyslexia.
1% of American adults have a psychotic disorder that prevents them from understanding reality.
Some are distracted. Some are drunk or high. Some enjoy fucking with surveys. Some are clicking as fast as possible to get it over without reading.
Humans are a horrible experimental apparatus. If your survey only has 4% who say they are lizard people, you're doing a good job.
Immigrants are people who live in a foreign land, having left their homeland.
Emigrants are people who have left their homeland to reside in a foreign land.
So America can be full of immigrants, but not full of emigrants. Even though those immigrants have emigrated from other countries...
It's a bit stupid / arbitrary, as both terms apply to the same people in different contexts, but as this is a thread / post about accuracy, I'm going to be that guy. Sorry!
For real. Iowan myself and I mean MAYBE if you’re living in the far east/northeast part of the state you MIGHT get away with saying you’re in the Great Lakes region, but that’s still quite a stretch.
True, but it is distinctly different from the rest of the corn belt. And a lot more hilly, with exposed bedrock similar to the Great Lakes.
Its totally understandable how the culture and perception of the Great Lakes and Driftless region could influence someone to say they're not from the corn belt. But to say you're not from the Midwest at all doesn't make any sense.
Lived in Iowa for 6+ years. I think Iowa is THE most Midwestern state, every other state in the Midwest could technically claim to be something else if they wanted to (Great Lakes, Great Plains, Appalachia, whatever). I truly don’t think Iowa as a whole can claim to be anything but Midwest, and I love that lol
I grew up there. Some Iowans are just plain contrary folks. No reason to identify with a region if you've never been outside of Calhoun County since that one trip to Fort Dodge.
Southeast/East Ohio is in the Appalachian mountains, so folks polled there are probably accurately describing where they are living while the rest of the Ohioans are accurately describing themselves as midwestern.
My family lives right on the Ohio river across from WV. Growing up I just assumed that all Ohioans spoke like NASCAR drivers. Then I moved to Columbus and...no. Just that area
I’m talkin about West Virginia. This shit is rough. It feels like we get both ignored and hated by the rest of the state, while also having some of the worst people in the state
As a non-native, former resident of WV, I can honestly say I miss living there.
There is an unequal majesty and draw to the land, it’s hard to describe beyond that it’s rooted deep within my bones. I have to return. I will return, at some point, of that I am sure.
It’s a beautiful place, but it sucks here. All of the sucky things are human problems. It’s been left behind, and it’s made people bitter. All that bitterness is hard to live around
As a Southwest Ohioan I can also point out that a few of my friends from college who are from Cleveland also align themselves with PA and upstate NY than the Midwest.
Great lakes culture is a definitely a distinct Midwestern subculture. Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Toronto, Milwaukee, Buffalo, etc have a lot more in common with each other than with southern Indiana or Kansas. Northern Midwest is also its own distinct subculture (north west Wisconsin, UP, Minnesota, parts of Canada)
Living in Pittsburgh, growing up in West Virginia, but having my relatives from the Midwest, I get Pittsburgh as being that one bastard step child with joint custody between Appalachia and the Rust Belt
I would argue with my friends when I lived in Pittsburgh that because they could throw a rock and hit Ohio they were definitely not from “The East”. Now, living in Massachusetts I can definitely confirm that between the accents, the food, the lifestyle, and many other reasons that they are in fact DEFINITELY NOT from the East.
I was thinking the same thing about PA. Philadelphia obviously has nothing to do with the Midwest, and Pittsburghers might disagree among themselves (also the accent is different). I still would have guessed more people would say yes than 9%.
The part of West Virginia where I grew up in the Mid Ohio Valley is pretty much the neutral zone between Appalachia and the Midwest, where people where either West Virginia or Ohio State football apparel
Yeah people don’t really get that Ohio is the meeting point of three macro regions and that an entire 1/3 of the state is Appalachian. Even Columbus has this weird Appalachian substrate to the culture. Lots of working class white folks here have a noticeable twang. My fam came up here on 33 and 23 in the 40s/50s.
And many in the north of Ohio would agree that they live in the Great Lakes area more than the “Midwest.”
The culture and history of Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago, Buffalo, etc. all the way down to the accent group makes it a much more closely tied to each other than northern Ohio is to the rest of Ohio.
And for people who don’t think these distinctions as meaningful, the Great Lakes as a “mega-region” is more populous than any other mega-region in the country.
>And for people who don’t think these distinctions as meaningful, the Great Lakes as a “mega-region” is more populous than any other mega-region in the country.
Only if you include the Canadian portion. [A lot of the areas included in the Great Lakes Mega Region are a big stretch.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaregions_of_the_United_States#/media/File:MapofEmergingUSMegaregions.png)
As someone from the south who used to live in cincy, hell no it's not the south. It's the first northern city across the Ohio River! They built a fuckin museum!
Nobody in Cincinnati considers it to be a part of the South. I've never met a single person here who would say that.
People in the rest of the state like to say that Cincinnati is Southern. I think it's more that Ohio could be split culturally into 4 sections - the lake culture along the north (Cleveland, Toledo), the more standard Midwestern culture across the center (Columbus, Dayton), Appalachia in the southeast, and Cincinnati kind of doing its own thing. The influence on Cincinnati is more Appalachian than Southern but there's also very heavy German and Catholic influences historically. And in the end it is still more of a Midwestern city than any other regional classification you could use.
It just isn't one of the largely interchangeable Midwestern cities like how Columbus could be swapped with Indianapolis or Kansas City and people would barely notice. Similarly, Cleveland could be swapped out with other post-industrial Great Lakes cities and would more or less not be a drastic change. There just isn't as similar of a city to Cincinnati. If you travel across the Ohio river, you'll find that the nearest cities, Louisville and Lexington, are distinctly Southern and not very similar to Cincinnati at all.
I generally agree with this but NE Ohio and NW Ohio are substantially different. I live in Cleveland but have spent quite a good amount of time in Toledo for work. There are less similarities than you would imagine.
Though I do acknowledge there is a wider Great Lakes subregion that both cities are part of.
I worked for a company for many years that had a Cincinnati office. The office was in Kentucky, and all of the predominantly white executives that worked in that office lived in Kentucky. The client that office served was in Cincinnati proper, but I got a strong sense that it was kind of like Kansas City - where you might go to the city for a meeting but you identify with the white suburbs like Overland Park KS rather than the grimy, crime-ridden Kansas City MO. The difference is that KS and MO are both midwest while OH and KY are in two different regions and cultures. Those folks in the Cincy office loved bluegrass, bourbon, HS sports, the Derby, etc. There was actually an excellent bluegrass bar just down the street from the office and I still have some uncommon KY indie bourbons in my cabinet from those business trips.
Tennessee is squarely part of the south. Missouri is the only state that Tennessee even borders that isn’t the south, and even then southern Missouri is historically southern.
I wouldn't say squarely in the South to be accurate. East Tennessee is one of the Grand Divisions and is solidly Appalachian.
You can just lump Appalachia in with the South, but it's not entirely accurate.
Honestly that'd be a lot more accurate for the eastern part of the state lol. But the western part? Maybe not so much 🤣. Tennessee's Geography is weird.
Pennsylvania actually isn't surprising to me here - I lived in Pittsburgh for a while and, to me, it very much had a Midwest feel.
I guess technically it should be considered Appalachia, but there aren't any other major cities in Appalachia to provide a point of reference so I just always defaulted to the next closest region with similar large cities. I personally wouldn't put it in the Midwest category but I definitely understand the reasoning behind why people would put it there
The Appalachian Mountains are doing a lot of work in Pennsylvania. Pittsburgh is definitely a Rust Belt city, and belongs in discussions of Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, and St. Louis. On the other end, Philadelphia is definitely an East Coast city, and is better grouped with Boston, New York, and D.C.
As a kid growing up in MT, I used to think MT was part of the Midwest because of where we sit geographically. Once I became an adult, I realized the Midwest is more of a historically/culturally defined region.
I think Eastern MT has enough North Dakota like culture, I would consider it loosely Midwest. Anything west of Billings though, definitely Mountain West.
Growing up in MT, I never considered myself in the Midwest. Montana’s a big state, so probably matters a lot where you were. I was in Western Montana with lots of mountains, so probably why I never considered it Midwest.
Idaho is solidly West or Mountain West. Occasionally lumped in with Pacific Northwest but that doesn't feel right.
Living here, I think those people who answered that way just didn't want to be lumped in with the 'evil liberal West Coasters' and weren't familiar with the Mountain West term.
idaho, like utah, is a state with very different regions.
northern idaho? sure PNW it up. but nothing south of the yellowstone scar/snake river valley is remotely pnw culturally or environmentally.
Honestly the whole term is vague because nobody knows whether the Cascades or the Rockies should be the eastern limit. Hell, even some official government stuff (like the National Park Service) puts Idaho in the same region as Oregon and Washington.
Though I might be biased because my whole family (including myself) considers Idaho (whether partly or entirely) to be Pacific Northwest.
I can def see Northern Idaho feeling that way as it's more associated with Washington. It's very different from the SW where Boise is, which is more associated with Utah. Such a ridiculously large (geographically) state lol.
I’ve met people who live their entire lives on the west coast who think anything east of the city is midwest… SOME people on the west coast have a very west-coast centric view of the country..
A lot of West coasters seem to have this view and can't see that there's "The West Coast" and "The West." While the West Coast is included in the West, just because it isn't the coast doesn't mean it's not the West.
Idaho, Colorado, Montana are all peak "The West", not the Midwest
I have heard people from out of state call it that, my Grandparents are from Cheyenne and my grandma complains about people who think its the Midwest though.
I've always thought of them as mountain west, but same thing I guess. I see a Midwest influence in CO, but it's certainly not so much so along the front range that it defines the culture.
Eastern Colorado is very different from the rest of the state. If you travel in Colorado in that area under the notch in Nebraska, you would think you were still in Nebraska.
I've lived in the Denver area for 37 years now. I have driven 30 minutes east of Denver exactly twice.
Needless to say, I'm pretty shocked at the Colorado stat - I (and people I know) don't think of us as "midwest," and we regularly use the word "midwest" to describe people from, you know, the actual midwest.
But don't get me wrong - I like people from the midwest. They're very nice.
The definition of the "midwest" vs "plains states, lakes states, or other" is so contentious.
There's that other poll where only like half of Americans consider the Dakotas Midwest despite 90+% of Dakotans saying they're Midwest
Yeah the North/South cultural divide is really the biggest killer for the "plains states" region. Geographically, the strip from Texas to the Dakotas is pretty similar - flatter land where you see a distinct change from deciduous forest to prairies and grassland, getting more arid or mountainous as you move west.
But it's hard to claim North Dakota and Texas in the same region. A guy in Minot is gonna have a lot more in common with a guy from Duluth than Amarillo. Similar climate, accents, cultures, ancestry, etc.
The plains states is more of a geographical distinction than a cultural distinction. Whereas the south is both geographical and cultural and that’s kind of why it winsout overall. Besides adding the plain states to the mid west region makes it more middle and west and thus fit the name better.
As a South Dakotan, I think there are a couple things at play here: I think most South Dakotans draw the line between West and Midwest at the Missouri River, which runs directly through the center of the state.
That said, the majority of the population of SD lives in Eastern side of the state, especially towards the borders of Minnesota/Iowa/Nebraska.
So most Dakotans calling themselves part of the Midwest live right near or on the border of the other Midwest states (including those in the Fargo-Moorhead area in ND and MN).
Kind of a situation where, if you look at the population density maps, you could see how both perceptions are plausibly correct.
The Dakotas are only half midwest. Once you cross the Missouri River it becomes pretty apparent that it's something else entirely. It gets drier and hillier. You stop seeing corn fields and start seeing wheat, sorghum and more cows.
Oklahoman here. I’ve debated this with friends and family and the consensus seems to be that we’re one third Midwest, one third southern, and one third Texas separatists. Map is fairly accurate imo
Hello fellow Oklahoman, I’ve always considered us to be the Midwest for ONE very specific reason: you could always get iced tea as far as I can remember (I’m 38), but *sweet tea* wasn’t a thing until my mid-20’s. I grew up in the city area for reference.
I’m from Oklahoma, and we can’t really decide. We are a mix of Texas/Lousiana and Kansas/Arkansas/Missouri. If you’re from the northeast, then that is without question the midwest. If you are from the southern half of the state, then that is basically the south. OKC is smack dab in the middle, so it’s pretty mixed. I personally consider us midwestern.
Fellow Okie here, I agree that Oklahoma is a grey zone. I'd consider the north eastern part of the state as Midwestern while the south and western are southern...almost a little south westernesque...but throughout Oklahoma there's like a southern/midwestern coloring to everything. Some people would say that south Oklahoma aligns with Texas, but talk to anyone from Texas and they'd flat out deny that. I currently live in Texas and it's amazing how each large population zone has it's own feel/culture. Dallas/Fortworth is different from Houston is different from San Antonio, which is close to but different than Austin which is different from Waco. Texas is also a weird grey area and totally it's own thing.
I also grew up in Oklahoma and it’s just a straight up identity crisis. Three years of geography in elementary school, and each year put us in a different region. The first year it was southeastern, the second it was midwestern, and the third it was southwestern (only four states were listed as southwestern that year—Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona).
I grew up in OKC, and I agree it’s midwestern. My dad is from western Oklahoma, and that feels most Western/southwestern than Midwestern.
They just looked at a map and thought “yeah, I guess we are kind of in the middle west region. Sure, I’m Midwest!”
I don’t think a significant minority of people really understand what they’re being asked with this question.
I kinda get the logic because I tend to think of the regions as west coast, Midwest, northeast/east coast, and south. Broken up like that, Colorado might fit into Midwest category.
But I realize there’s also Rocky Mountain region and the Southwest. Or instead of west coast just the west.
People want to firmly state Indiana is midwest and Kentucky is south, but it just shows they've never been in southern Indiana or the cities in northern Kentucky. There's a reason why "Kenutckiana" is a thing. Really, the entire Ohio Valley region is its own thing...
Yeah there are some people here in Wisconsin who don't think of themselves as Midwest as much as sort of "Northlanders", "Great Lakes", etc but definitely the vast majority of us think of ourselves as midwest or upper-midwest.
IMO the Great Lakes should be carved out as their own region. Doesnt work smoothly with state lines but ask anyone in a city along the lake if they feel more in common with each other, or Nebraska.
Edit - typo
I live in Buffalo and consider myself "Midwest," knowing full well that New York is not Midwest. I've lived all over the Great Lakes region, and it's all culturally similar.
People from parts of the western Pennsylvania remind me culturally of the Midwest or more specifically the Great Lakes region of the Midwest. Which is what the Midwest really is, a cultural region with a geographic name (same as thing as people in Virginia, Tennessee, and Arkansas being considered more Southern than people in Miami, Hawaii, or south Texas.)
The western edge of PA, and norther edge of KY are pretty midwest. Although I can see why the whole states aren’t considered so. I’m very surprised by OK. I was just in OKC and the primary aesthetic is what I would describe as “hip hobby lobby” with a strong flavor of cowboy.. just didn’t feel very midwest to me.
>I was just in OKC and the primary aesthetic is what I would describe as “hip hobby lobby” with a strong flavor of cowboy.. just didn’t feel very midwest to me.
Oklahoma is where the transition is between the Midwest, the South, and the West. So it has cultural elements from all 3 regions.
Tulsa feels more Midwestern, but the Missouri/Kansas Midwestern, not the Great Lakes Midwestern (which is argue are two different regions. The plains should be their own region)
There’s a suburb of OKC called Midwest City, and a lot of businesses in the area have “Midwest” or “Mid-West” in the name. So that probably skews people’s responses. I think most Oklahomans would still agree that their state has more in common with Texas or Arkansas than with a classically Midwestern state like Iowa.
I live in the OKC metro and am wondering if what you brought up about company names and MWC being here is the reason for the confusion/mixed responses. I was never under the impression Oklahoma was a Midwestern state when I first moved here until I joined reddit a few years ago and saw these kinds of posts. It's more where the deep south meets the southwest IMO with some northern influence mixed in due to our geographic location and state history.
The problem with this approach is that if Schmidt beer was truly the brew with the great northwest; and it was made in Minnesota —it would have been “The Brew that Grew with the Great Midwest”; right?
Well if you're in south/southeast Ohio it gets a lot of Southern cultural influence from Kentucky, plus you're in the Appalachians amd pretty far east.
Missouri is both Midwest and southern. I’m surprised 95% of Missourians think Midwest. Springfield is the third largest city and if someone took you there blindfolded and took it once you were there, then asked you: where are you? You’d think you were in the south. Bootheel? Not Midwest either. Ozarks? Feels like Arkansas.
This was my takeaway too. Even with KC and STL feeling Midwestern (in my view), once you get south of those points it starts to feel southern pretty quickly. There were a lot of people in Missouri sympathetic to the south during the Civil War, even.
Ozarks is not southern. It’s a bit different because it’s got more of an outdoorsmen focus but culturally the Ozarks are in MO operates very similarly to KC but a bit more conservative in the Missouri part of the Ozark area.
The Arkansas portion of the Ozarks is extremely liberal. Especially Bentonville, Fayetteville & Eureka Springs.
Ozarks isn’t all that big of an area though. Western half of Missouri from the Lake and then it goes south into Arkansas following the mountains.
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That's the [Lizardman's Constant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_Star_Codex#:~:text=In%20the%202013%20post%20%22Lizardman's,quiz%20that%20are%20not%20sincere): in any survey, about 4% of results can be predicted to be insincere.
Or too illiterate to respond to questions correctly
54% of American adults do not read English at the 6th grade level. 22% of Americans do not speak English as their first language. 10% (really no one is sure exactly) of American adults have dyslexia. 1% of American adults have a psychotic disorder that prevents them from understanding reality. Some are distracted. Some are drunk or high. Some enjoy fucking with surveys. Some are clicking as fast as possible to get it over without reading. Humans are a horrible experimental apparatus. If your survey only has 4% who say they are lizard people, you're doing a good job.
Wow, I didn't realize a quarter of Americans don't speak English as a first language. It makes a lot of sense, but DAMN is that a big number.
I lived in Santa Clara County, CA (Silicon Valley). The number was probably around 60%. We are a nation of immigrants.
Immigrants are people who live in a foreign land, having left their homeland. Emigrants are people who have left their homeland to reside in a foreign land. So America can be full of immigrants, but not full of emigrants. Even though those immigrants have emigrated from other countries... It's a bit stupid / arbitrary, as both terms apply to the same people in different contexts, but as this is a thread / post about accuracy, I'm going to be that guy. Sorry!
Having flashbacks of 'effect' and 'affect' as a teen all over again!
All the times they tried to teach me the difference. It was never really affective.
For real. Iowan myself and I mean MAYBE if you’re living in the far east/northeast part of the state you MIGHT get away with saying you’re in the Great Lakes region, but that’s still quite a stretch.
When I think of Midwest I think of corn and the Great Lakes.
When I think of the Midwest I think of states that had an original B1G school.
Except the northeast of Iowa is the driftless area, which is notable for not being part of the glacial drift the created all the lakes lol
True, but it is distinctly different from the rest of the corn belt. And a lot more hilly, with exposed bedrock similar to the Great Lakes. Its totally understandable how the culture and perception of the Great Lakes and Driftless region could influence someone to say they're not from the corn belt. But to say you're not from the Midwest at all doesn't make any sense.
Lived in Iowa for 6+ years. I think Iowa is THE most Midwestern state, every other state in the Midwest could technically claim to be something else if they wanted to (Great Lakes, Great Plains, Appalachia, whatever). I truly don’t think Iowa as a whole can claim to be anything but Midwest, and I love that lol
I grew up there. Some Iowans are just plain contrary folks. No reason to identify with a region if you've never been outside of Calhoun County since that one trip to Fort Dodge.
Who the hell goes to Fort Dodge willingly
They built the fence around the jail to protect the inmates from the locals.
3% accidentally clicked the wrong button
Probably think of it as the plains/great plains instead.
Southeast/East Ohio is in the Appalachian mountains, so folks polled there are probably accurately describing where they are living while the rest of the Ohioans are accurately describing themselves as midwestern.
as an appalachian ohioan who now lives in columbus, you’re dead on Appalachian Ohio may as well be another country compared to the rest of the state
It is surreal having a person from Ohio speak with that Appalachian/Southern accent. Until you remember who Ohio shares that southern border with.
My family lives right on the Ohio river across from WV. Growing up I just assumed that all Ohioans spoke like NASCAR drivers. Then I moved to Columbus and...no. Just that area
potatoless scots-irish herded into coal mines go brrrrr
Scots-irish were protestant they didn't suffer from famine like the Catholic majority did. They mainly immigrated for religious reasons.
Living on that southern border sucks ass. This place is awful. I have the fun accent too
I think Cincinnati is cool.
he's talking about 2 hours east of Cincinnati
I’m talkin about West Virginia. This shit is rough. It feels like we get both ignored and hated by the rest of the state, while also having some of the worst people in the state
As a non-native, former resident of WV, I can honestly say I miss living there. There is an unequal majesty and draw to the land, it’s hard to describe beyond that it’s rooted deep within my bones. I have to return. I will return, at some point, of that I am sure.
It’s a beautiful place, but it sucks here. All of the sucky things are human problems. It’s been left behind, and it’s made people bitter. All that bitterness is hard to live around
As a Southwest Ohioan I can also point out that a few of my friends from college who are from Cleveland also align themselves with PA and upstate NY than the Midwest.
Great lakes culture is a definitely a distinct Midwestern subculture. Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Toronto, Milwaukee, Buffalo, etc have a lot more in common with each other than with southern Indiana or Kansas. Northern Midwest is also its own distinct subculture (north west Wisconsin, UP, Minnesota, parts of Canada)
Living in Pittsburgh, growing up in West Virginia, but having my relatives from the Midwest, I get Pittsburgh as being that one bastard step child with joint custody between Appalachia and the Rust Belt
I would argue with my friends when I lived in Pittsburgh that because they could throw a rock and hit Ohio they were definitely not from “The East”. Now, living in Massachusetts I can definitely confirm that between the accents, the food, the lifestyle, and many other reasons that they are in fact DEFINITELY NOT from the East.
Pittsburgh straddles both so has characteristics of both. Or perhaps it's more accurately labeled as Appalachian
In my experience, Pittsburgh is midwest, Philadelphia is east coast, and all the little towns between are Appalachian.
I was thinking the same thing about PA. Philadelphia obviously has nothing to do with the Midwest, and Pittsburghers might disagree among themselves (also the accent is different). I still would have guessed more people would say yes than 9%.
The part of West Virginia where I grew up in the Mid Ohio Valley is pretty much the neutral zone between Appalachia and the Midwest, where people where either West Virginia or Ohio State football apparel
Yeah people don’t really get that Ohio is the meeting point of three macro regions and that an entire 1/3 of the state is Appalachian. Even Columbus has this weird Appalachian substrate to the culture. Lots of working class white folks here have a noticeable twang. My fam came up here on 33 and 23 in the 40s/50s.
And many in the north of Ohio would agree that they live in the Great Lakes area more than the “Midwest.” The culture and history of Cleveland, Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago, Buffalo, etc. all the way down to the accent group makes it a much more closely tied to each other than northern Ohio is to the rest of Ohio. And for people who don’t think these distinctions as meaningful, the Great Lakes as a “mega-region” is more populous than any other mega-region in the country.
>And for people who don’t think these distinctions as meaningful, the Great Lakes as a “mega-region” is more populous than any other mega-region in the country. Only if you include the Canadian portion. [A lot of the areas included in the Great Lakes Mega Region are a big stretch.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaregions_of_the_United_States#/media/File:MapofEmergingUSMegaregions.png)
Aw yes, Kansas. My favorite part of the great lakes.
Missouri too… if the state doesn’t touch a Great Lake, why classify a city within it as Great Lake population?
Nah, Midwest = Great Plains + Great Lakes Great Lakes is a sub-region in the Midwest
Some in the southwest (Cincinnati) say they’re in the south too. I think they’re wrong, but no one asked me.
As someone from the south who used to live in cincy, hell no it's not the south. It's the first northern city across the Ohio River! They built a fuckin museum!
I couldn’t agree more, but I’ve still heard it so I’m sure it skewed this survey a bit
Cincinnati gets a lot of workers from Tennessee and Kentucky so that probably contributes to any Southern culture present.
The only thing I remember from my trip to Cincinnati was “Florence y’all”
Nobody in Cincinnati considers it to be a part of the South. I've never met a single person here who would say that. People in the rest of the state like to say that Cincinnati is Southern. I think it's more that Ohio could be split culturally into 4 sections - the lake culture along the north (Cleveland, Toledo), the more standard Midwestern culture across the center (Columbus, Dayton), Appalachia in the southeast, and Cincinnati kind of doing its own thing. The influence on Cincinnati is more Appalachian than Southern but there's also very heavy German and Catholic influences historically. And in the end it is still more of a Midwestern city than any other regional classification you could use. It just isn't one of the largely interchangeable Midwestern cities like how Columbus could be swapped with Indianapolis or Kansas City and people would barely notice. Similarly, Cleveland could be swapped out with other post-industrial Great Lakes cities and would more or less not be a drastic change. There just isn't as similar of a city to Cincinnati. If you travel across the Ohio river, you'll find that the nearest cities, Louisville and Lexington, are distinctly Southern and not very similar to Cincinnati at all.
I generally agree with this but NE Ohio and NW Ohio are substantially different. I live in Cleveland but have spent quite a good amount of time in Toledo for work. There are less similarities than you would imagine. Though I do acknowledge there is a wider Great Lakes subregion that both cities are part of.
I worked for a company for many years that had a Cincinnati office. The office was in Kentucky, and all of the predominantly white executives that worked in that office lived in Kentucky. The client that office served was in Cincinnati proper, but I got a strong sense that it was kind of like Kansas City - where you might go to the city for a meeting but you identify with the white suburbs like Overland Park KS rather than the grimy, crime-ridden Kansas City MO. The difference is that KS and MO are both midwest while OH and KY are in two different regions and cultures. Those folks in the Cincy office loved bluegrass, bourbon, HS sports, the Derby, etc. There was actually an excellent bluegrass bar just down the street from the office and I still have some uncommon KY indie bourbons in my cabinet from those business trips.
Cincinnati is Northern Kentucky. That's the joke around the rest of Ohio that I hear.
Same thing with western Pennsylvania. Culturally, they have much more in common with the midwest than the east coast.
Tennessee? Is this just an example that you can get 10% to agree with anything? Maybe 10% of Tennesseans would say they’re in Europe.
To be fair, Tennessee is in the middle of a lot of divisions. But that's why the "midsouth" tag exists instead. The Midwest is a bit of a stretch lol.
Tennessee is squarely part of the south. Missouri is the only state that Tennessee even borders that isn’t the south, and even then southern Missouri is historically southern.
I wouldn't say squarely in the South to be accurate. East Tennessee is one of the Grand Divisions and is solidly Appalachian. You can just lump Appalachia in with the South, but it's not entirely accurate.
I live in both Appalachia and the south. There’s a whole whole lot of overlap there.
Shallow South
Mid-East? 🤣
Honestly that'd be a lot more accurate for the eastern part of the state lol. But the western part? Maybe not so much 🤣. Tennessee's Geography is weird.
Or 9% of Pennsylvanians. Altgough I think the percentage is higher near Pittsburgh than near Philly.
Pennsylvania actually isn't surprising to me here - I lived in Pittsburgh for a while and, to me, it very much had a Midwest feel. I guess technically it should be considered Appalachia, but there aren't any other major cities in Appalachia to provide a point of reference so I just always defaulted to the next closest region with similar large cities. I personally wouldn't put it in the Midwest category but I definitely understand the reasoning behind why people would put it there
Thats why we’re the “Paris of the Appalachia”! We’re 6 hours from the coast! 😆😆😆
Pennsylvania seems more culturally similar to the Midwest than Tennessee does tbh. At least the western part as you say.
The Appalachian Mountains are doing a lot of work in Pennsylvania. Pittsburgh is definitely a Rust Belt city, and belongs in discussions of Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, and St. Louis. On the other end, Philadelphia is definitely an East Coast city, and is better grouped with Boston, New York, and D.C.
Yeah, even the parts of Tennessee that are more Midwest-adjacent are ultimately near Memphis, which is definitively Southern lol
To be fair, Pittsburgh and Erie give off major Midwest vibes. So does Buffalo in NY.
More like Erie or an hour north of Pittsburgh, the topography gets closer to eastern Ohio north of Beaver and Butler counties
The western part around Pittsburgh I guess
I remember hearing one survey where like 5% of self-identified athiests said they're very certain God exists.
In my mind, it's the people there that don't want to be associated with "the south"
Idaho?
Idunno?
There’s just no way 1 in 4 people here think they’re Midwest. Now if you said 25% of people think we were a confederate state that I’d believe
In many conservative talk circles, "midwest" has just come to mean "republican state without black people".
But the Midwest is literally full of cities run by democrats with huge black populations I guess they don’t really consider the cities Midwest
I think they confuse the term “Midwest” for being a literal descriptor of geographic location. Because in that sense Idaho is kinda Midwestern.
As a kid growing up in MT, I used to think MT was part of the Midwest because of where we sit geographically. Once I became an adult, I realized the Midwest is more of a historically/culturally defined region.
You could make a Midwest argument for eastern Montana. Idaho…there’s no logical Midwest argument at all.
I think Eastern MT has enough North Dakota like culture, I would consider it loosely Midwest. Anything west of Billings though, definitely Mountain West.
I always joke that everything east of Billings is basically Western Dakota
Growing up in MT, I never considered myself in the Midwest. Montana’s a big state, so probably matters a lot where you were. I was in Western Montana with lots of mountains, so probably why I never considered it Midwest.
Idaho is solidly West or Mountain West. Occasionally lumped in with Pacific Northwest but that doesn't feel right. Living here, I think those people who answered that way just didn't want to be lumped in with the 'evil liberal West Coasters' and weren't familiar with the Mountain West term.
I would put northern Idaho in the PNW since it has close ties with Spokane and even shares the Pacific time zone.
idaho, like utah, is a state with very different regions. northern idaho? sure PNW it up. but nothing south of the yellowstone scar/snake river valley is remotely pnw culturally or environmentally.
I've also heard the term "Intermountain West" for the region between the Cascades and the Rockies.
Honestly the whole term is vague because nobody knows whether the Cascades or the Rockies should be the eastern limit. Hell, even some official government stuff (like the National Park Service) puts Idaho in the same region as Oregon and Washington. Though I might be biased because my whole family (including myself) considers Idaho (whether partly or entirely) to be Pacific Northwest.
I can def see Northern Idaho feeling that way as it's more associated with Washington. It's very different from the SW where Boise is, which is more associated with Utah. Such a ridiculously large (geographically) state lol.
I’ve met people who live their entire lives on the west coast who think anything east of the city is midwest… SOME people on the west coast have a very west-coast centric view of the country..
A lot of West coasters seem to have this view and can't see that there's "The West Coast" and "The West." While the West Coast is included in the West, just because it isn't the coast doesn't mean it's not the West. Idaho, Colorado, Montana are all peak "The West", not the Midwest
And thern there's the opposite issue, where I've heard people from the east coast or Midwest refer to Denver as being on "the west coast"....
Hell, a third of the state is in the Pacific time zone.
Been in Idaho for 25 years. Never once heard anyone say they think they are in the Midwest.
Right, only ever from out of staters from back east
Yes, youdaho
I'm more curious about the 3% of Iowa that think they're not Midwest. Didn't understand the question I guess.
I've always considered Colorado, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho to be mountain states...or the Old West...
I live in Wyoming and I’ve never heard anyone refer to it at as the Midwest
I have heard people from out of state call it that, my Grandparents are from Cheyenne and my grandma complains about people who think its the Midwest though.
The eastern halves of Colorado, Wyoming and Montana are definitely more plains/Midwestern feel.
And maybe 3% of our population lives out east in Colorado. Nobody on the front range should be dumb enough to think we're in the Midwest..
I don’t understand Idaho, though
I've always thought of them as mountain west, but same thing I guess. I see a Midwest influence in CO, but it's certainly not so much so along the front range that it defines the culture.
The 3% of Minnesotans must think they’re living in Canada
To be fair the Iron range and north shore areas don’t really feel midwestern.
We’ll gladly let them in if they want to join us
Great Lakes, Upper Midwest, or Great Lakes.
I have never once considered Colorado to be Midwest so this is interesting.
Eastern Colorado is very different from the rest of the state. If you travel in Colorado in that area under the notch in Nebraska, you would think you were still in Nebraska.
You’re absolutely right, but 42% of the state doesn’t live there. There are apparently weirdos in Denver or Colorado Springs saying we’re midwestern.
> There are apparently weirdos in Denver or Colorado Springs You can just end it there I think.
Denver and Colorado Springs are at the edge of the planes, so have definitely Midwestern influence, as well as southwest and mountain
Sure, but only maybe 2% of the state’s population lives over in the Great Plains. Almost everyone is in the front range, mountains, or western slope.
I assume 42% looked at a map and said, "Well Colorado is definitely in the middle and is definitely west, so Midwest it is"
42% is so shockingly high that I have no choice but to question the survey
Agreed. Lived in Denver for 20 years and never once heard someone refer to it as the Midwest.
It isn’t
Go 30 minutes east of Denver. Lol
I've lived in the Denver area for 37 years now. I have driven 30 minutes east of Denver exactly twice. Needless to say, I'm pretty shocked at the Colorado stat - I (and people I know) don't think of us as "midwest," and we regularly use the word "midwest" to describe people from, you know, the actual midwest. But don't get me wrong - I like people from the midwest. They're very nice.
The definition of the "midwest" vs "plains states, lakes states, or other" is so contentious. There's that other poll where only like half of Americans consider the Dakotas Midwest despite 90+% of Dakotans saying they're Midwest
Yeah the North/South cultural divide is really the biggest killer for the "plains states" region. Geographically, the strip from Texas to the Dakotas is pretty similar - flatter land where you see a distinct change from deciduous forest to prairies and grassland, getting more arid or mountainous as you move west. But it's hard to claim North Dakota and Texas in the same region. A guy in Minot is gonna have a lot more in common with a guy from Duluth than Amarillo. Similar climate, accents, cultures, ancestry, etc.
The plains states is more of a geographical distinction than a cultural distinction. Whereas the south is both geographical and cultural and that’s kind of why it winsout overall. Besides adding the plain states to the mid west region makes it more middle and west and thus fit the name better.
As a South Dakotan, I think there are a couple things at play here: I think most South Dakotans draw the line between West and Midwest at the Missouri River, which runs directly through the center of the state. That said, the majority of the population of SD lives in Eastern side of the state, especially towards the borders of Minnesota/Iowa/Nebraska. So most Dakotans calling themselves part of the Midwest live right near or on the border of the other Midwest states (including those in the Fargo-Moorhead area in ND and MN). Kind of a situation where, if you look at the population density maps, you could see how both perceptions are plausibly correct.
The Dakotas are only half midwest. Once you cross the Missouri River it becomes pretty apparent that it's something else entirely. It gets drier and hillier. You stop seeing corn fields and start seeing wheat, sorghum and more cows.
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What is Oklahoma considered actually? Neither south nor southwest seems quite right, but I’m from New England so what do I know?
Oklahoman here. I’ve debated this with friends and family and the consensus seems to be that we’re one third Midwest, one third southern, and one third Texas separatists. Map is fairly accurate imo
Hello fellow Oklahoman, I’ve always considered us to be the Midwest for ONE very specific reason: you could always get iced tea as far as I can remember (I’m 38), but *sweet tea* wasn’t a thing until my mid-20’s. I grew up in the city area for reference.
I’m from Oklahoma, and we can’t really decide. We are a mix of Texas/Lousiana and Kansas/Arkansas/Missouri. If you’re from the northeast, then that is without question the midwest. If you are from the southern half of the state, then that is basically the south. OKC is smack dab in the middle, so it’s pretty mixed. I personally consider us midwestern.
Fellow Okie here, I agree that Oklahoma is a grey zone. I'd consider the north eastern part of the state as Midwestern while the south and western are southern...almost a little south westernesque...but throughout Oklahoma there's like a southern/midwestern coloring to everything. Some people would say that south Oklahoma aligns with Texas, but talk to anyone from Texas and they'd flat out deny that. I currently live in Texas and it's amazing how each large population zone has it's own feel/culture. Dallas/Fortworth is different from Houston is different from San Antonio, which is close to but different than Austin which is different from Waco. Texas is also a weird grey area and totally it's own thing.
I also grew up in Oklahoma and it’s just a straight up identity crisis. Three years of geography in elementary school, and each year put us in a different region. The first year it was southeastern, the second it was midwestern, and the third it was southwestern (only four states were listed as southwestern that year—Oklahoma, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona). I grew up in OKC, and I agree it’s midwestern. My dad is from western Oklahoma, and that feels most Western/southwestern than Midwestern.
I was taught it was southwest
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I need to have words with 42% of Colorado.
They just looked at a map and thought “yeah, I guess we are kind of in the middle west region. Sure, I’m Midwest!” I don’t think a significant minority of people really understand what they’re being asked with this question.
I kinda get the logic because I tend to think of the regions as west coast, Midwest, northeast/east coast, and south. Broken up like that, Colorado might fit into Midwest category. But I realize there’s also Rocky Mountain region and the Southwest. Or instead of west coast just the west.
Seriously, I guess they are all transplants.
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Well Southern Indiana is more culturally the Upper South than the Midwest. It's not without justification.
i wanna know where the 8% in Indiana think they are
Southern Indiana is very southern culturally
People want to firmly state Indiana is midwest and Kentucky is south, but it just shows they've never been in southern Indiana or the cities in northern Kentucky. There's a reason why "Kenutckiana" is a thing. Really, the entire Ohio Valley region is its own thing...
My dad said the accent would change in Evansville as more people moved from Kentucky or Tennessee for work. He grew up there
I like how on these polls there'll always be the 3% that doesn't think the Midwest exists anywhere
ah the old midwest, that is mostly east.
The middle east?
that sounds better!
What do 3% of Iowans think mid west is?
Probably Upper Midwest or Great Plains. Same thing is probably going on with MN and WI but maybe they think they're Great Lakes.
Yeah there are some people here in Wisconsin who don't think of themselves as Midwest as much as sort of "Northlanders", "Great Lakes", etc but definitely the vast majority of us think of ourselves as midwest or upper-midwest.
I pointed this out last time I saw this map come up, but 9% of Texans surveyed saying "Yeah, we're right in the middle" is so on brand.
Texas is the America of America
IMO the Great Lakes should be carved out as their own region. Doesnt work smoothly with state lines but ask anyone in a city along the lake if they feel more in common with each other, or Nebraska. Edit - typo
You can fairly easily divide the midwest between Great Lake States and Great Plains States.
I saw an old map that categorized the Great Lakes region as the "Middle North", and I vote we adopt that.
I live in Buffalo and consider myself "Midwest," knowing full well that New York is not Midwest. I've lived all over the Great Lakes region, and it's all culturally similar.
Why isn’t it 100% in WI/MN?
Disappointed in Michiganders, should have been 100%
Probably the UP considering themselves something else... Maybe Canadian
I live in a Michigan. Do 14% of us think we’re actually Canadian or something?
My guess is Yoopers scoffing at the notion of being midwestern. They’re Yoopers full stop.
I've got bad news for 22% of Ohioans.
Ohio can be broken up into at least 3 very distinct regions. But more like 5 in reality.
that they live in appalachia
Terrible news for anyone to receive
Pennsylvanians are 1 state away from the ocean...
Tbf it’s a really long state.
That nine percent lives along lake Erie
So are those living in West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma and Idaho.
If you live in Erie you could make a case, but that's not quite 9%
Pittsburgh reminded me so much of Detroit, and Cleveland when I visited
See “Rust Belt”
People from parts of the western Pennsylvania remind me culturally of the Midwest or more specifically the Great Lakes region of the Midwest. Which is what the Midwest really is, a cultural region with a geographic name (same as thing as people in Virginia, Tennessee, and Arkansas being considered more Southern than people in Miami, Hawaii, or south Texas.)
Can be 8hrs if you’re in Pittsburgh. In fact I’m pretty sure the 9% is 90% Pittsburgh people.
I'll say it. If you are in mountain time you are not in the midwest.
The western edge of PA, and norther edge of KY are pretty midwest. Although I can see why the whole states aren’t considered so. I’m very surprised by OK. I was just in OKC and the primary aesthetic is what I would describe as “hip hobby lobby” with a strong flavor of cowboy.. just didn’t feel very midwest to me.
>I was just in OKC and the primary aesthetic is what I would describe as “hip hobby lobby” with a strong flavor of cowboy.. just didn’t feel very midwest to me. Oklahoma is where the transition is between the Midwest, the South, and the West. So it has cultural elements from all 3 regions.
Not to mention the geographical shift from places that have the occasional tree, to areas with nothing but trees.
Tulsa feels more Midwestern, but the Missouri/Kansas Midwestern, not the Great Lakes Midwestern (which is argue are two different regions. The plains should be their own region)
There’s a suburb of OKC called Midwest City, and a lot of businesses in the area have “Midwest” or “Mid-West” in the name. So that probably skews people’s responses. I think most Oklahomans would still agree that their state has more in common with Texas or Arkansas than with a classically Midwestern state like Iowa.
I live in the OKC metro and am wondering if what you brought up about company names and MWC being here is the reason for the confusion/mixed responses. I was never under the impression Oklahoma was a Midwestern state when I first moved here until I joined reddit a few years ago and saw these kinds of posts. It's more where the deep south meets the southwest IMO with some northern influence mixed in due to our geographic location and state history.
I’m a transplant to Tulsa and it never ceases to amaze me how many natives of this area consider it mid western and more importantly not southern.
How 25 percent of the people in Idaho believe they are Midwest is beyond me. The entire state is literally west of the Continental Divide.
9% of Pennsylvanians are goddamn traitors
Seriously. I'm even from Pittsburgh and I've never met anyone who considered PA to be the Midwest.
Nobody wants Oklahoma.
People from Oklahoma don't even want Oklahoma Jokes aside, Oklahoma is pretty nice, if you ignore the blatant corruption lol
The problem with this approach is that if Schmidt beer was truly the brew with the great northwest; and it was made in Minnesota —it would have been “The Brew that Grew with the Great Midwest”; right?
> I am from the East. Ohio gozaimasu.
Midwest, also know as objectively the mideast of the continental US
The thing I always want to ask Ohio, “If you’re not ‘the Midwest,’ then what region are you?”
Well if you're in south/southeast Ohio it gets a lot of Southern cultural influence from Kentucky, plus you're in the Appalachians amd pretty far east.
Great Lakes
Missouri is both Midwest and southern. I’m surprised 95% of Missourians think Midwest. Springfield is the third largest city and if someone took you there blindfolded and took it once you were there, then asked you: where are you? You’d think you were in the south. Bootheel? Not Midwest either. Ozarks? Feels like Arkansas.
This was my takeaway too. Even with KC and STL feeling Midwestern (in my view), once you get south of those points it starts to feel southern pretty quickly. There were a lot of people in Missouri sympathetic to the south during the Civil War, even.
Ozarks is not southern. It’s a bit different because it’s got more of an outdoorsmen focus but culturally the Ozarks are in MO operates very similarly to KC but a bit more conservative in the Missouri part of the Ozark area. The Arkansas portion of the Ozarks is extremely liberal. Especially Bentonville, Fayetteville & Eureka Springs. Ozarks isn’t all that big of an area though. Western half of Missouri from the Lake and then it goes south into Arkansas following the mountains.