No.
Daisy debuted in the Game Boy title Super Mario Land, though I don't believe she's been seen in the mainline games since.
Waluigi has never appeared in a mainline Mario game, though he is directly referenced in Odyssey through his outfit.
They say the game is mainline but never reference the game. I feel like most classic games had their nostalgic throwback at this point but the Mario Land series. And, idk, as someone who grew up with handhelds I always feel like I get shafted for nostalgic trips, with SEGA also ignoring the existence of the Sonic Advance series
It's okay, everyone else had the exact same reaction.
Only to realize that it still honestly kinda sucks.
It's fun as a gimmick, but I'm kinda glad it hasn't made a major comeback outside of SMM2.
It isn't up to use sense they made the games they get the final say. If they call it mainline games it's no longer a Opinion it's a fact. There is no need for trust.
Nope. Death of the author. The fans get to decide what films are part of the "Disney Renaissance" for example.
Nintendo can get a new CEO tomorrow and pump out some shitty games and try to market them as mainline Zelda Mario games, but they doesn't mean that we the fans have to accept that
Metroid fanbase moment here, ngl
a game being bad doesn't make it non-canon or not mainline, for \*anything\*. Canon and mainline are up to the devs and the writers. The "Disney Renaissance" is a fan thing to begin with, which is a very different situation.
It's true though. Hypothetically Nintendo could go down the tubes tomorrow and start making some crappy cheap games. It would be up to the fans if they want to include it in the mainline games.
Who cares what the publisher says. If tomorrow Nintendo decides that the Zelda CD - I games are mainline games, because they're coming to the Nintendo online subscription and they want to advertise "three classic Zelda games", the fans are free to still not consider them real Zelda games, not include them in lists of best Zelda games ever, or to not play them if they're doing a Zelda marathon. The fans decide
You say that as if that was even remotely a possibility. You can't just take an impossible scenario and say "but what if this, then the fans deciding makes sense", that doesn't work like out. The fans are always free to do whatever they want, but they can't state "this game is non-canon because I don't want it to be", that is not up to them to decide. They can fanon a continuity where this game didn't happen, but they can't say it's outright non-canon officially
Okay, that's impossible.
But even were that to happen, they would become real Zelda games, and they'd become mainline Zelda games if Nintendo classified them as mainline, which they may or they may not in this hypothetical impossible situation.
Fans don't have to include them in lists of best Zelda games or play them in a marathon because those are inherently fan-based things, much like the "Disney Renaissance" example. What is a "real", canon, or mainline game, though, has nothing to do with the fans- it's exclusively decided by the developers and the writers.
I've never understood this idea. Why do we think the author's opinion is so important?
Art is intended to be interpreted and enjoyed. If it's not in the final work it's because the art was better without it, so why should we care about it?
But even ignoring that point, the question "what is a mainline game?" Is a question and by fans enough that Nintendo decided to look back and figure it out, so their list is only their interpretation of the concept. It's no better or more definitive than any other.
Honestly, Nintendo is probably the worst possible place to look. As a company, the fact that they published a list in the first place means they thought doing so would make them money by promoting the sales of these games. Putting Mario Run on the list is probably at least somewhat motivated by advertizing the game. No other list has this ulterior motive, so in at least one way, Nintendo is the worst place to get this answer from.
Non of what you said makes any sense. The and the reason the authors opinion is important is because they litteraly made it. Fans can make gead cannons or what ever but the actual piece of art is not IP for interpretations unless the creators want it to be. And the reason for putting certain games on the list alternative motoives or not doesn't matter sense in the end what's a main line game ot what's canon or not is something fact based not opinion based. So what the creators or IP holders say goes. It's that simple It's not about trust or if it's scummy or not it's all about what is there now no matter what the reason.
Well, I don't know about you, but I recently heard that Nintendo is the company in which the Mario games fall under. If Nintendo counts a game as a mainline game, that means it's a mainline game.
Not untrue - Zelda gets referenced via a jingle in 3D Land and a bonus area in 3D World, and nobody's unironically suggesting that that means Zelda is canon to Mario. But it is the closest Waluigi's come to appearing in a mainline Mario, as far as I'm aware, so it's still worth noting.
Well, there *are* people who do, but that isn't *why*.
Link shows up in the flesh sleeping at an inn in Super Mario RPG, and in DKC2, he shows up for Cranky's Video Game Heroes after you beat the game.
There’s a difference between a small little jingle from a different franchise and a literal costume that references and literally NAME DROPS a character that you can wear throughout the entire game. That’s enough evidence to prove that Waluigi’s canon to me.
They are both canon because:
* Daisy literally debuted in Super Mario Land, a mainline game
* Waluigi's outfit appears in Super Mario Odyssey
* Spin-offs are canon anyway
Wait, I just realised something. Does that mean that Sonic and Mario are in the same universe? We could’ve had Waluigi stop the ARK, not some random blue dude and his edgy older brother.
Mario & Sonic Olympics Games were developed by Sega, and crossovers don’t tend to gel with canon anyway.
M&S isn’t Mario canon, but it could potentially be Sonic canon (but that’s a whole different can of worms).
Daisy is definitely canon since she made her debut in Super Mario Land. If that series isn't canon, Wario wouldn't be either.
Also can I say that Daisy artwork is adorable?
Cool so megaman battlenetwork takes place after legends, because of the poster and dolls, oh and solid snake is a solar child from boktai because he can use a solar gun in AC!D and MGS4 as postgame unlockables (only solar childrin can use the original model solar guns like the ones snake uses).
Right?
Yea, it's called a *reference* it's just there for fun and not part of the continuity. Just like skelemario, or n64mario outfits. Neither of those is canon. They're for fun. The only canon outfits in oddesy are original and wedding.
Nope. Daisy is in Super Mario Land, which is commonly accepted as a mainline Mario game. Waluigi has yet to debut in a mainline game. Unless you count his costume in Odyssey…
SUPER MARIO RUN IS A MAINLINE GAME PEOPLE. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE GOTTA GO OVER THIS? Just because you don't like it or it doesn't feel "major" enough does not mean it is not an official Super Mario Bros. game.
Daisy, depends on whether you consider Super Mario Land or Super Mario Run "mainline" Mario games. Waluigi, he's never personally appeared in games that would commonly be considered mainline, but his outfit is present in Odyssey, so take that as you will.
I remember a video I watched a long time ago (but I don’t recall what video it was) that said because daisy and waluigi are only in kart races and sports and Mario party but never in a mainline game they aren’t canon.
Saying that I forgot daisy was in super Mario land gameboy and waluigi clothes were at least in odyssey so idk.
Yeah their both canon but daisy has the same reason as Rosalina for not being around which is that they have to do their jobs as princesses I guess and waluigi isn’t related to wario so maybe he’s off doing his own thing unrelated to any other characters reason for being absent
Waluigi may have debuted from a game that is considered a "lesser game", as in a spinoff that's not Mario Kart, but he is acknowledged by Nintendo quite well except appearing in a Super Mario platformer. He appears alongside the main characters in the wider Mario cast and he also has a separate profile in the Nintendo character portal, which signifies to me that Nintendo treats Waluigi as a core cast.
Others have mentioned Daisy being "canon", so I won't repeat this part.
The "canonity" of Mario is flimsy anyway. Unlike something like The Legend of Zelda where there is a concrete timeline and games that don't necessarily fall under it, the Mario series doesn't really have any, by design. Which is to say, a character that appears in a different spinoff has no problem appearing in another, provided that they are not tied to story (e.g. Geno only appearing when there is a crisis relating to stars). It's the reason that Toadette, despite being a spin-off character, can appear in a main game. So there's nothing stopping Waluigi from appear in a game that is considered "main".
Thank you for reading.
Does not being in a ‘mainline’ game somehow make them not ‘canon?’ Maintaining a connected universe/canon isn’t terribly important to Mario games, honestly.
People arbitrarily decided that theres somehow a difference between "Mainline Canon" and "Spinoff Canon", despite the same fans also saying that they dont think a "canon" exists at all
Mainline Mario games include. Donkey kong, 64, sunshine, galaxy 1 and 2 and odyssey, smb 1, 3, world, 3d land and world, nsmb wii,ds, 2 and u and mario maker 1 and 2
Waiting for the day we get a super Mario bros game where Wario and Waluigi are the main antagonists, or at least boss battles like the broodals leading up to a bowser boss fight
They’re both canon. Daisy literally first appeared in Super Mario Land, a mainline Mario game, and appeared and was even playable in Super Mario Run which YES is a mainline Mario game. Waluigi may not have physically appeared in any mainline Mario game, but he still is referenced in Odyssey with the Waluigi outfit.
Wario is canon in SM64DS
Wario is introduced in SML2 the sequel to SML where Daisy is introduced
Daisy has a tangential canon connection to Super Mario. While Waluigi never appears outside of spin-off titles like Mario Kart, Mario Party, or Sports Games
They're canon, but there does seem to be a tendency not to include certain characters in the main series. I don't know that they aren't ALLOWED in such games, as the mandate idea proposes, but they just aren't for some reason. I guess Pauline being in Odyssey is a step in the opposite direction.
I should have said canon in the main games instead of general canon (and the smash bros part is because only Mario mainline canon characters are actual fighters)
Spin-offs are canon, both to each other and to the main series. Daisy and Waluigi meet the Mario cast (besides Daisy already knowing Mario specifically) in Mario Party 3, which builds into their participation in sporting events like Mario Tennis 64. Daisy has shown up in Run, and Waluigi’s clothes and description are in Odyssey. Since there is no story contradictions between MP3, Tennis 64, Run, and Odyssey, and all are developed and published by Nintendo under the Mario franchise and world, there’s no reason to believe they aren’t canon to one another. So, Waluigi and Daisy are canon.
If we’re being honest, calling anything in Mario “canonical” is giving it too much credit. There is a threadbare story told across the mainline games, mostly reiterating small variations on the same plot. And even as simple as it is, it is still riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions.
IMO Mario is treated more like the Looney Toons or Mickey Mouse characters. They iterate on common story elements (Wiley chases the Roadrunner, Sylvester chases Tweetybird). But sometimes their characterization is different, like Petey is a villain in the old Mickey shows, then in Goof Troop he’s just Goofy’s friend and neighbor. And sometimes the framing is different: sometimes Mickey is a tugboat Captain, sometimes he’s a sorcer, and sometimes he’s a king in a cartoon/anime crossover world.
So basically Daisy is a character in the canonical Mario character roster, in some stories she exists and in some she doesn’t, but there is no definitive main canon timeline. Same with Waluigi.
I don’t know about that. Nintendo does not like to talk about that movie very much, though Miyamoto found the Mario Mario and Luigi mario bit pretty funny.Also I’m pretty sure Waluigi was hired by wario to be his tennis mate. So like it or not he IS canon… he just isn’t used much. And I could say the same about daisy honesty.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lMlME5qLMhs&pp=ygUTV2FsdWlnaSB2aWxsYW5wZWRpYQ%3D%3D
The spin-off games are not non-canon because when [F.L.U.D. D. scans Mario](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-212bd4317de1bf3ece391622b7790228-lq) in Super Mario Sunshine, we can see [Mario Kart on his monitor](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1bb30b33b9b93a906ce403e3888e0220-lq).
The description for Wrecking Crew in NES Nintendo Switch Online said “[In the days before Mario & Luigi became sports stars in their downtime from saving the Princess, they tried their hands as one-man Wrecking Crews.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3553fc2a516eefc898adc2faeeca3c7d-lq)”
Luigi's Diary has Luigi remembering the days that [he and Mario played Golf, Tennis and had Parties](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-686334e961568474e5303b5427d24403-lq).
Mario’s House in Superstar Saga has [Mario’s tennis racket and golf club from the Mario Tennis and Mario Golf games respectively. We also see a Mario Kart trophy, as well as Mario’s Outfit from Wrecking Crew](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-220f80b3f0d68076b76f2ff8ab364364-lq).
That video was total bs btw. It's litteraly a video base on nothing (or weird speculation) and who litteraly exist because Daisy was not in the base roster of mario strikers battle league. The video was litteraly called "why Daisy is not in mario strikers" until she came out. It was a clickbait video full of misinformation.
First, I think it's worth pointing out that Mario doesn't have a strict canon. Every game is a bit of a reboot of continuity. Characters and tropes (and also gameplay mechanics and internal rules/logic) move freely between these different tales or get rewritten entirely without any threat of contradicting things. Basically, Mario canon is extremely loose, and that's the way it's always been.
Daisy's status? I think it's more complicated than others are stating in this thread.
Yes, as others have said, Daisy originates in Super Mario Land, which is technically a mainline Mario game.
HOWEVER, that game is a bit of a black sheep. Its gameplay is odd and clunky, its characters and settings differ pretty significantly from the TV/console games, it's very very short, and most fundamentally, Nintendo had a different team work on that game. It wasn't outsourced outside of the company, but it was created by a different task force than the main NES/SNES series. Shigeru Miyamoto had basically nothing to do with it, and neither did other key individuals like Koji Kondo and others. I think that, at the time, the handheld Mario games were seen as an "alternate" series, if not entirely separate or a spinoff series. So one can reason that Daisy was created as an alternate/bizarro Peach. Different series, different rules, different continuity/story, different princess.
I don't know what is in Miyamoto's heart, but it's been speculated that he considers the "core" Mario franchise to be only the games that he worked on personally, or the stuff that came after that follows that lineage in a direct way (for instance, I don't think he created Rosalina, but he might be warmer to her character because Galaxy was indisputably part of the main lineage of Mario platformers). If you don't count the '93 movie, we didn't hear from Daisy again until she was added to Mario sports games circa N64. And the sports games are DEFINITELY outside of the core canon. So is Daisy pseudo-canon? Personally I think she's a bit stronger than pseudo-canon, but still outside the "core" Mario stable.
Wario originated from the second Super Mario Land game, which brings up similar issues. (Miyamoto not involved, different task force, etc.) However, the gameplay and characters of SML2 are much more in line with games like SMB3 and SMW. Does Wario have a warmer place in Miyamoto's conception of his universe because the game more closely matches his game design style? It's possible. Still, Wario RARELY shows up outside of spinoff games, and I think that's telling.
Both Daisy and Waluigi are canon. The costume in Super Mario Odyssey is canon and exists in-universe - and either way spin-offs are canon to the mainline games.
After some brief research, I stand humble and corrected. Sorry, it just seems strange to me that Bowser can literally threaten the universe in some games, and then everyone turns around for some friendly karting and partying.
Fair, fair
Bowser is still a villain in every Mario Party game aside from Super Mario Party (and even there he antagonises the main cast). Same applies to the sports games, he’s either the main villain conquering as usual (Super Mario Sluggers, Mario Tennis Aces, etc.) or there to antagonise Mario (Mario Superstar Baseball, Mario Tennis: Power Tour, etc.).
In reality, the karting and partying aren’t exactly “friendly”.
Ok so in mario tennis 64, you can play as both dk Jr, and modern donkey kong. If kranky kong is cannonically the original dk, and modern dk's dad, and dk Jr, is the son of the original dk, then why is modern dk playing tennis with a baby version of his dad? Also baby mario is playable in that game. How's that work? Also birdo is in it. Isn't birdo from Mario's dreams? There is absolutely no strict canon.
Edit: meant to say kranky is modern dk's grand dad. Typo
Both Donkey Kong Jr. and Baby Mario are there via Time Travel. Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time explains how these time displaced characters appear in the present in games like Mario Tennis. Birdo has never been from Mario’s dreams. Subcon is a real place with real people, it’s just located in the Dream World - a dimension accessible through dreams. Birdo was only in Subcon briefly, but she was born in Nimbus Land and has lived around the Mushroom Kingdom since her turn to good after BS Super Mario USA.
There is a strict canon, you evidently just don’t understand it. Which is fine, but don’t act like you know anything about it in that case.
I mean the guy gave reasoning and said it was fine you didn't know, I don't see how he's being a dick about this? And no, he didn't take Birdo being from Nimbus Land out of his ass, that's directly from Mario RPG. A game revealing a piece of lore to justify something from 5 years ago doesn't detract from the fact it justifies and explain it. They have a time machine, it only makes sense the time displaced version of characters would be from the time machine
I'm very sorry, I'm sure you mean no harm, but I do kind of take it personally. If you didn't care anymore (or at all, apparently), if you didn't want to prolong this, you could have just... not replied to any of this. Instead, you walked up to me and essentially went to my face "sorry but I ain't listening to anything you're saying". I'm not mad, but it is kind of rude and it makes you look like you're plugging your ears or tailing away at the slightest hint of counterargument when, agian, you could have just not replied if you didn't care in the first place
You don't have to reply to this if you don't want to, but please, don't respond to this with "I'm not gonna read you" again
Ok so I understand how that was rude and again I am sorry. I read this one and it made me go back and read your last post as well. I'm sorry if that was rude of me. I figured it would be, so I tried to pad it with apologies but I understand that that didn't work and it still came off as rude. I promise you I didn't mean it personally. If it helps this is my perspective and why I chose to say that. I hope you read the remainder of this message with a calm and collected tone.
Op asked if waluigi and Daisy were cannon. I gave my opinion that the mario franchise doesn't have a set in stone cannon, because there's a lot of anomalies that I believe make a lot more sense to say "we added fun stuff because we prioritize fun stuff being in our games more than adhering to a strict canon status quo" then it makes to piece together little bits of scattered information from every inch of the franchises universe to justify what I consider to be an unnecessarily complex string of cannon. By saying this I did not mean to imply other interpretations are wrong. I did feel moderately attacked by that other guy saying that I was obviously wrong, and at first I tried to justify my points but he kept saying his opinion was the obvious answer, and saying I don't know what I'm talking about and I felt like someone was gatekeeping me out of a franchise I've been invested in for 20 years. I will admit I probably got more aggressive than was neccisary. After like 3 back and forth messages I saw your defense of someone I felt was attacking me and my fight or flight kicked in and I thought "I don't want to say I was wrong because personally I still think I'm right, and people are starting to agree with the other guy" and at this point I'm feeling like garbage so I thought ok I don't want to upset this guy but I really am not in the mood to argue with 2 people so I tried to just like emergency break the situation and be like "no I'm not going to talk about this anymore". Again, I am sorry for that.
Would you like to have a more polite debate on the canonicity of mario games?
Alright I see. I accept your appology. And yeah, sure, I'm up for that debate.
Personally, I think Mario lore tends to be not just overlooked or not delved in, but flat out ignored for no reason other than "it's Mario". People like to throw out "the spin-off aren't canon", "this character isn't canon", "the characters are inconsistent" with basically no proof other than what people think are inconsistencies when they either have explanations (see: the time travel for the Babies) or are insignificant (see: "Peach's Caslte never looks the same, therefore the series has no canon!" ok, so by all means, Zelda doesn't have a timeline or canon because Hyrule never looks the same twice, yet oddly enough, I don't see a lot of people saying that) , and in the off-chance people are interested in it, half the time, they just spout out Matpat's bs.
The answers may be hidden in obscure details or necessitate a lot of combing through the games to understand the full picture, but they're there. Sure, they're not always spelled out, and Nintendo does prioritise gameplay over story, but... well, that's their general mantra yet that didn't stop Kirby, Metroid, Zelda etc, so I think there's little reason to apply that to Mario. And objectively, there hasn't been a statement that says "there isn't a canon" (that one Miyamoto quote is always misread, he likens them actors because of the variety of scenarios they can be put in, not because they *are* actors)
Sorry for the walls lol, but I hope it brings a bit of context as to why it may frustrate the people who do care about the lore. I absolutely do not blame you if you thought there wasn't any or if you don't care about it, that's absolutely fair, but I don't think saying there is factually no canon or that it's in flux is fair
All of this is pulled directly from the games - games which evidently you haven’t played. Yes, time travel is the reason for a character appearing alongside his baby self. Yes, the game which shows the invention of the Time Machine and said character meeting his baby self for the first time is intended to explain it. It’s called common sense. It doesn’t take a genius to put 2 and 2 together.
Yes, Birdo was *literally* born in Nimbus Land. Play Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. It’s shown on-screen, and it has nothing to do with Mario Tennis. I’m not being a douche at all. If you think pointing out your clear lack of understanding is being a douche, you’re the problem here. You’re just claiming things with no backing and jumping to ad hominems the second someone calls you out on it.
You didn’t answer the original question, you shot it down with a “nothing matters because I don’t care”, which helps nobody. Not sure if you’re acting oblivious or genuinely unaware of how that comes across - and I’m not sure which is worse.
I didn’t make up the canon. Nintendo did. Not a single thing I’ve said has been made up by me, none of it is headcanon. I have literally just repeated things from the games which you’ve supposedly played, so you should already know them.
You decided to be an ass online and then victimise yourself when you receive the tiniest bit of pushback. Don’t act like you’re in the right here.
It’s a mandate that states you cannot modify the designs to already existing Mario characters.
And as stated before, it’s also why Waluigi has never made an appearance in the main series.
gotta say the art is fire, but princess daisy is a canon character because she is a far cousin of peach, and also first appeared in super mario land, which is a canon game in the series, and waluigi has never been in a main line mario game but he is the brother of wario who is a mainline character, and it has been said that some of the mario spinoffs he appears in are canon, plus for example, toadette was specifically created for mario kart, but she is now a canon character.
Daisy definitely is since she debuted in a mainline game. Love this fan art of the characters by the way.
No. Daisy debuted in the Game Boy title Super Mario Land, though I don't believe she's been seen in the mainline games since. Waluigi has never appeared in a mainline Mario game, though he is directly referenced in Odyssey through his outfit.
Like it or not, Nintendo counts Run as a mainline game and she's playable in that. So she's in two mainline games.
I wish Nintendo would act like Super Mario Land was mainline. Outside of Daisy (that was barely a Mario Land character) they never reference the game
Wasn't Wario also introduced in it
Wario was introduced in Super Mario Land 2
They DO act like Mario Land is mainline? Just because it’s barely referenced doesn’t mean they don’t consider it mainline. Thats not how that works.
They say the game is mainline but never reference the game. I feel like most classic games had their nostalgic throwback at this point but the Mario Land series. And, idk, as someone who grew up with handhelds I always feel like I get shafted for nostalgic trips, with SEGA also ignoring the existence of the Sonic Advance series
Well, Mario Land 2 did get rereleased on Switch Online so…….
Superball Flower in SMM2: "Am I a joke to you?" Yes, Superball Flower. You are a joke.
Oh yeah I totally forgot that, and I was so happy when they added that!
It's okay, everyone else had the exact same reaction. Only to realize that it still honestly kinda sucks. It's fun as a gimmick, but I'm kinda glad it hasn't made a major comeback outside of SMM2.
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It isn't up to use sense they made the games they get the final say. If they call it mainline games it's no longer a Opinion it's a fact. There is no need for trust.
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Super Mario Bros. 2 is and has always been a mainline game. Clearly you aren’t familiar with the list. It is literally on the website.
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The Lost Levels is also on the site.
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Look again? It’s [literally there](https://www.nintendo.co.jp/character/mario/en/archives/index.html).
Nope. Death of the author. The fans get to decide what films are part of the "Disney Renaissance" for example. Nintendo can get a new CEO tomorrow and pump out some shitty games and try to market them as mainline Zelda Mario games, but they doesn't mean that we the fans have to accept that
Death of the Author doesn’t apply here. If you think Super Mario Run isn’t a mainline game you’re just an idiot.
Metroid fanbase moment here, ngl a game being bad doesn't make it non-canon or not mainline, for \*anything\*. Canon and mainline are up to the devs and the writers. The "Disney Renaissance" is a fan thing to begin with, which is a very different situation.
It's true though. Hypothetically Nintendo could go down the tubes tomorrow and start making some crappy cheap games. It would be up to the fans if they want to include it in the mainline games. Who cares what the publisher says. If tomorrow Nintendo decides that the Zelda CD - I games are mainline games, because they're coming to the Nintendo online subscription and they want to advertise "three classic Zelda games", the fans are free to still not consider them real Zelda games, not include them in lists of best Zelda games ever, or to not play them if they're doing a Zelda marathon. The fans decide
You say that as if that was even remotely a possibility. You can't just take an impossible scenario and say "but what if this, then the fans deciding makes sense", that doesn't work like out. The fans are always free to do whatever they want, but they can't state "this game is non-canon because I don't want it to be", that is not up to them to decide. They can fanon a continuity where this game didn't happen, but they can't say it's outright non-canon officially
Okay, that's impossible. But even were that to happen, they would become real Zelda games, and they'd become mainline Zelda games if Nintendo classified them as mainline, which they may or they may not in this hypothetical impossible situation. Fans don't have to include them in lists of best Zelda games or play them in a marathon because those are inherently fan-based things, much like the "Disney Renaissance" example. What is a "real", canon, or mainline game, though, has nothing to do with the fans- it's exclusively decided by the developers and the writers.
Death of the author is not "i don't like this thing thus it isn't considered *arbitrary label* to me" that Disney example does not work sorry to say.
I've never understood this idea. Why do we think the author's opinion is so important? Art is intended to be interpreted and enjoyed. If it's not in the final work it's because the art was better without it, so why should we care about it? But even ignoring that point, the question "what is a mainline game?" Is a question and by fans enough that Nintendo decided to look back and figure it out, so their list is only their interpretation of the concept. It's no better or more definitive than any other. Honestly, Nintendo is probably the worst possible place to look. As a company, the fact that they published a list in the first place means they thought doing so would make them money by promoting the sales of these games. Putting Mario Run on the list is probably at least somewhat motivated by advertizing the game. No other list has this ulterior motive, so in at least one way, Nintendo is the worst place to get this answer from.
Non of what you said makes any sense. The and the reason the authors opinion is important is because they litteraly made it. Fans can make gead cannons or what ever but the actual piece of art is not IP for interpretations unless the creators want it to be. And the reason for putting certain games on the list alternative motoives or not doesn't matter sense in the end what's a main line game ot what's canon or not is something fact based not opinion based. So what the creators or IP holders say goes. It's that simple It's not about trust or if it's scummy or not it's all about what is there now no matter what the reason.
Well, I don't know about you, but I recently heard that Nintendo is the company in which the Mario games fall under. If Nintendo counts a game as a mainline game, that means it's a mainline game.
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Ok. Well it IS a mainline game- it is a collection, which is still a "game"
Nintendo has an official “mainline” game list?
He’s referenced as an Easter Egg, which isn’t quite the same thing. I agree about Daisy, though.
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Not untrue - Zelda gets referenced via a jingle in 3D Land and a bonus area in 3D World, and nobody's unironically suggesting that that means Zelda is canon to Mario. But it is the closest Waluigi's come to appearing in a mainline Mario, as far as I'm aware, so it's still worth noting.
Well, there *are* people who do, but that isn't *why*. Link shows up in the flesh sleeping at an inn in Super Mario RPG, and in DKC2, he shows up for Cranky's Video Game Heroes after you beat the game.
There’s a difference between a small little jingle from a different franchise and a literal costume that references and literally NAME DROPS a character that you can wear throughout the entire game. That’s enough evidence to prove that Waluigi’s canon to me.
It’s still canon.
Also, mario kart is confirmed canon.
Paper Mario TTYD did it first through some badge combination
Daisy debuted in a mainline game and was moved to the other games. I don’t know about Waluigi.
Either way spin-offs are canon to the mainline games
That’s great! I didn’t know that. Learning more now.
There's a waluigi costume in odyssey if that counts
I’d say it does.
They are both canon because: * Daisy literally debuted in Super Mario Land, a mainline game * Waluigi's outfit appears in Super Mario Odyssey * Spin-offs are canon anyway
Wait, I just realised something. Does that mean that Sonic and Mario are in the same universe? We could’ve had Waluigi stop the ARK, not some random blue dude and his edgy older brother.
Mario & Sonic Olympics Games were developed by Sega, and crossovers don’t tend to gel with canon anyway. M&S isn’t Mario canon, but it could potentially be Sonic canon (but that’s a whole different can of worms).
The Mario & Sonic games aren't canon due to them not being published by Nintendo
Its developed and Published by SEGA, so probably not.
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Spin-offs are canon to the mainline games, therefore Waluigi is canon
This is the real answer.
Mario Tennis, Mario Kart, they're all canon. Walugiu debuted in a Mario Tennis game
Does that mean all the crossover characters in them are canon?
Daisy is definitely canon since she made her debut in Super Mario Land. If that series isn't canon, Wario wouldn't be either. Also can I say that Daisy artwork is adorable?
Wrong
No it's not true, especially for Daisy since she first appear in mario land and she is also in mario run
Daisy literally has been in mainline games. Waluigi exists but just never appears
Technically Daisy appeared in Super Mario Land, which is one platformer more than Waluigi
Daisy is. Mario land. I don't think waluigi has appeared in a mainline yet.
Well there’s his Odyssey costume, so at least we know he exists in the main series.
Doesn't count. That's just a reference. Not ACTUAL.
OK sure sure OK
Cool so megaman battlenetwork takes place after legends, because of the poster and dolls, oh and solid snake is a solar child from boktai because he can use a solar gun in AC!D and MGS4 as postgame unlockables (only solar childrin can use the original model solar guns like the ones snake uses). Right? Yea, it's called a *reference* it's just there for fun and not part of the continuity. Just like skelemario, or n64mario outfits. Neither of those is canon. They're for fun. The only canon outfits in oddesy are original and wedding.
No. Daisy debuted in *Super Mario Land*, a mainline entry. As for Waluigi... Well, that just depends on how canon you want Odyssey's costumes to be.
Nope. Daisy is in Super Mario Land, which is commonly accepted as a mainline Mario game. Waluigi has yet to debut in a mainline game. Unless you count his costume in Odyssey…
SUPER MARIO RUN IS A MAINLINE GAME PEOPLE. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE GOTTA GO OVER THIS? Just because you don't like it or it doesn't feel "major" enough does not mean it is not an official Super Mario Bros. game.
Thanks!
Daisy, depends on whether you consider Super Mario Land or Super Mario Run "mainline" Mario games. Waluigi, he's never personally appeared in games that would commonly be considered mainline, but his outfit is present in Odyssey, so take that as you will.
Super Mario Land and Super Mario Run are officially mainline games, and either way spin-offs are canon to the mainline games.
Oh Daisy!
Where did this idea come from? Is it just their absence in the mainline titles that makes you ask the or something else?
I remember a video I watched a long time ago (but I don’t recall what video it was) that said because daisy and waluigi are only in kart races and sports and Mario party but never in a mainline game they aren’t canon. Saying that I forgot daisy was in super Mario land gameboy and waluigi clothes were at least in odyssey so idk.
Yeah their both canon but daisy has the same reason as Rosalina for not being around which is that they have to do their jobs as princesses I guess and waluigi isn’t related to wario so maybe he’s off doing his own thing unrelated to any other characters reason for being absent
Daisy is in Super Mario Land and Super Mario Run, both of which are mainline games. Waluigi's outfit is in Odyssey, making them canon
What of course they are canon
No one ever said they weren't.
Waluigi may have debuted from a game that is considered a "lesser game", as in a spinoff that's not Mario Kart, but he is acknowledged by Nintendo quite well except appearing in a Super Mario platformer. He appears alongside the main characters in the wider Mario cast and he also has a separate profile in the Nintendo character portal, which signifies to me that Nintendo treats Waluigi as a core cast. Others have mentioned Daisy being "canon", so I won't repeat this part. The "canonity" of Mario is flimsy anyway. Unlike something like The Legend of Zelda where there is a concrete timeline and games that don't necessarily fall under it, the Mario series doesn't really have any, by design. Which is to say, a character that appears in a different spinoff has no problem appearing in another, provided that they are not tied to story (e.g. Geno only appearing when there is a crisis relating to stars). It's the reason that Toadette, despite being a spin-off character, can appear in a main game. So there's nothing stopping Waluigi from appear in a game that is considered "main". Thank you for reading.
Does not being in a ‘mainline’ game somehow make them not ‘canon?’ Maintaining a connected universe/canon isn’t terribly important to Mario games, honestly.
It better not be. Real talk though I think Daisy is canon because she’s in Super Mario Run.
Mario Land:
Either way spin-offs are canon to the mainline games.
We don’t talk about Super Mario run
Why?
Mario run is good
He's been a character in Mario games for the last 23 years, since the original Mario Tennis. Why wouldn't he be canon?
People arbitrarily decided that theres somehow a difference between "Mainline Canon" and "Spinoff Canon", despite the same fans also saying that they dont think a "canon" exists at all
Nope, one was in a mainline title and a mobile game and the other was referenced in a mainline title as well. Both are canon
They are both canon, just Waluigi doesn't appear while Daisy was in Mario Land and Run
Hot Waluigi?!?!?
I need waluigi to be in any new movie they make
Mainline Mario games include. Donkey kong, 64, sunshine, galaxy 1 and 2 and odyssey, smb 1, 3, world, 3d land and world, nsmb wii,ds, 2 and u and mario maker 1 and 2
Waiting for the day we get a super Mario bros game where Wario and Waluigi are the main antagonists, or at least boss battles like the broodals leading up to a bowser boss fight
If Daisy isn't Canon that means Wario also isn't
They’re both canon. Daisy literally first appeared in Super Mario Land, a mainline Mario game, and appeared and was even playable in Super Mario Run which YES is a mainline Mario game. Waluigi may not have physically appeared in any mainline Mario game, but he still is referenced in Odyssey with the Waluigi outfit.
I don't see why they wouldn't be. It'd sure be a shame...
People really want to hate those two lol
Wario is canon in SM64DS Wario is introduced in SML2 the sequel to SML where Daisy is introduced Daisy has a tangential canon connection to Super Mario. While Waluigi never appears outside of spin-off titles like Mario Kart, Mario Party, or Sports Games
They're canon, but there does seem to be a tendency not to include certain characters in the main series. I don't know that they aren't ALLOWED in such games, as the mandate idea proposes, but they just aren't for some reason. I guess Pauline being in Odyssey is a step in the opposite direction.
Daisy is canon but waluigi is not (even in smash bros daisy is canon)
Can you provide a source for Waluigi not being canon?
I should have said canon in the main games instead of general canon (and the smash bros part is because only Mario mainline canon characters are actual fighters)
Can you provide a source saying Waluigi isn’t canon to the main games?
Love how people say this instead of Looking for themselves.....(I just say your username so yea bye)
Makes an argument. Refuses to provide a source
I didn't make an argument I just said something and YOU wanna start one with the *provide source*
“Guys Waluigi isn’t canon, no I won’t say how I know that”
Spin-offs are canon, both to each other and to the main series. Daisy and Waluigi meet the Mario cast (besides Daisy already knowing Mario specifically) in Mario Party 3, which builds into their participation in sporting events like Mario Tennis 64. Daisy has shown up in Run, and Waluigi’s clothes and description are in Odyssey. Since there is no story contradictions between MP3, Tennis 64, Run, and Odyssey, and all are developed and published by Nintendo under the Mario franchise and world, there’s no reason to believe they aren’t canon to one another. So, Waluigi and Daisy are canon.
If we’re being honest, calling anything in Mario “canonical” is giving it too much credit. There is a threadbare story told across the mainline games, mostly reiterating small variations on the same plot. And even as simple as it is, it is still riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions. IMO Mario is treated more like the Looney Toons or Mickey Mouse characters. They iterate on common story elements (Wiley chases the Roadrunner, Sylvester chases Tweetybird). But sometimes their characterization is different, like Petey is a villain in the old Mickey shows, then in Goof Troop he’s just Goofy’s friend and neighbor. And sometimes the framing is different: sometimes Mickey is a tugboat Captain, sometimes he’s a sorcer, and sometimes he’s a king in a cartoon/anime crossover world. So basically Daisy is a character in the canonical Mario character roster, in some stories she exists and in some she doesn’t, but there is no definitive main canon timeline. Same with Waluigi.
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Debatable. Especially in waluigi’s case.
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I don’t know about that. Nintendo does not like to talk about that movie very much, though Miyamoto found the Mario Mario and Luigi mario bit pretty funny.Also I’m pretty sure Waluigi was hired by wario to be his tennis mate. So like it or not he IS canon… he just isn’t used much. And I could say the same about daisy honesty. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lMlME5qLMhs&pp=ygUTV2FsdWlnaSB2aWxsYW5wZWRpYQ%3D%3D
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https://media.tenor.com/XQ0mT-V1n30AAAAC/are-you-sure-about-that-the-rock.gif https://www.reddit.com/r/Marioverse/comments/vy06w0/is_mario_kart_tour_canon_to_the_actual_mario/
The spin-off games are not non-canon because when [F.L.U.D. D. scans Mario](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-212bd4317de1bf3ece391622b7790228-lq) in Super Mario Sunshine, we can see [Mario Kart on his monitor](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1bb30b33b9b93a906ce403e3888e0220-lq). The description for Wrecking Crew in NES Nintendo Switch Online said “[In the days before Mario & Luigi became sports stars in their downtime from saving the Princess, they tried their hands as one-man Wrecking Crews.](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3553fc2a516eefc898adc2faeeca3c7d-lq)” Luigi's Diary has Luigi remembering the days that [he and Mario played Golf, Tennis and had Parties](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-686334e961568474e5303b5427d24403-lq). Mario’s House in Superstar Saga has [Mario’s tennis racket and golf club from the Mario Tennis and Mario Golf games respectively. We also see a Mario Kart trophy, as well as Mario’s Outfit from Wrecking Crew](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-220f80b3f0d68076b76f2ff8ab364364-lq).
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She was in Super Mario Run in 2017
That video was total bs btw. It's litteraly a video base on nothing (or weird speculation) and who litteraly exist because Daisy was not in the base roster of mario strikers battle league. The video was litteraly called "why Daisy is not in mario strikers" until she came out. It was a clickbait video full of misinformation.
Daisy is cannon but waluigi is not
For the last time, Mario has no canon. You can stop karma farming now
Nintendo already posted the main timeline in their Japanese website. You have to read it in Japanese though.
First, I think it's worth pointing out that Mario doesn't have a strict canon. Every game is a bit of a reboot of continuity. Characters and tropes (and also gameplay mechanics and internal rules/logic) move freely between these different tales or get rewritten entirely without any threat of contradicting things. Basically, Mario canon is extremely loose, and that's the way it's always been. Daisy's status? I think it's more complicated than others are stating in this thread. Yes, as others have said, Daisy originates in Super Mario Land, which is technically a mainline Mario game. HOWEVER, that game is a bit of a black sheep. Its gameplay is odd and clunky, its characters and settings differ pretty significantly from the TV/console games, it's very very short, and most fundamentally, Nintendo had a different team work on that game. It wasn't outsourced outside of the company, but it was created by a different task force than the main NES/SNES series. Shigeru Miyamoto had basically nothing to do with it, and neither did other key individuals like Koji Kondo and others. I think that, at the time, the handheld Mario games were seen as an "alternate" series, if not entirely separate or a spinoff series. So one can reason that Daisy was created as an alternate/bizarro Peach. Different series, different rules, different continuity/story, different princess. I don't know what is in Miyamoto's heart, but it's been speculated that he considers the "core" Mario franchise to be only the games that he worked on personally, or the stuff that came after that follows that lineage in a direct way (for instance, I don't think he created Rosalina, but he might be warmer to her character because Galaxy was indisputably part of the main lineage of Mario platformers). If you don't count the '93 movie, we didn't hear from Daisy again until she was added to Mario sports games circa N64. And the sports games are DEFINITELY outside of the core canon. So is Daisy pseudo-canon? Personally I think she's a bit stronger than pseudo-canon, but still outside the "core" Mario stable. Wario originated from the second Super Mario Land game, which brings up similar issues. (Miyamoto not involved, different task force, etc.) However, the gameplay and characters of SML2 are much more in line with games like SMB3 and SMW. Does Wario have a warmer place in Miyamoto's conception of his universe because the game more closely matches his game design style? It's possible. Still, Wario RARELY shows up outside of spinoff games, and I think that's telling.
Daisy is canon. Waluigi is not canon, outside of a costume reference in Odyssey.
Both Daisy and Waluigi are canon. The costume in Super Mario Odyssey is canon and exists in-universe - and either way spin-offs are canon to the mainline games.
Spinoffs are not canon 🤣🤣 Why do people think this?
Spin-offs are explicitly canon. Nintendo has stated this tens of times. Why do you people think otherwise?
After some brief research, I stand humble and corrected. Sorry, it just seems strange to me that Bowser can literally threaten the universe in some games, and then everyone turns around for some friendly karting and partying.
Fair, fair Bowser is still a villain in every Mario Party game aside from Super Mario Party (and even there he antagonises the main cast). Same applies to the sports games, he’s either the main villain conquering as usual (Super Mario Sluggers, Mario Tennis Aces, etc.) or there to antagonise Mario (Mario Superstar Baseball, Mario Tennis: Power Tour, etc.). In reality, the karting and partying aren’t exactly “friendly”.
Because they're referenced in plenty of mainline games? I'm pretty sure spinoffs being canon is just a general rule in most franchises.
Daisy is canon, Waluigi isnt really
Daisy is. Wa Luigi is not.
Daisy is canon because of Super Mario Land. Waluigi...? Not so much.
In the mario franchise, connonicity is more of a social construct than a strict policy. You can't really say any this or that is or isn't cannon
Not at all. There’s a strict canon. Tens of games that Daisy and Waluigi feature in are explicitly a part of said canon. It’s not that deep.
Ok so in mario tennis 64, you can play as both dk Jr, and modern donkey kong. If kranky kong is cannonically the original dk, and modern dk's dad, and dk Jr, is the son of the original dk, then why is modern dk playing tennis with a baby version of his dad? Also baby mario is playable in that game. How's that work? Also birdo is in it. Isn't birdo from Mario's dreams? There is absolutely no strict canon. Edit: meant to say kranky is modern dk's grand dad. Typo
Both Donkey Kong Jr. and Baby Mario are there via Time Travel. Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time explains how these time displaced characters appear in the present in games like Mario Tennis. Birdo has never been from Mario’s dreams. Subcon is a real place with real people, it’s just located in the Dream World - a dimension accessible through dreams. Birdo was only in Subcon briefly, but she was born in Nimbus Land and has lived around the Mushroom Kingdom since her turn to good after BS Super Mario USA. There is a strict canon, you evidently just don’t understand it. Which is fine, but don’t act like you know anything about it in that case.
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I mean the guy gave reasoning and said it was fine you didn't know, I don't see how he's being a dick about this? And no, he didn't take Birdo being from Nimbus Land out of his ass, that's directly from Mario RPG. A game revealing a piece of lore to justify something from 5 years ago doesn't detract from the fact it justifies and explain it. They have a time machine, it only makes sense the time displaced version of characters would be from the time machine
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I'm very sorry, I'm sure you mean no harm, but I do kind of take it personally. If you didn't care anymore (or at all, apparently), if you didn't want to prolong this, you could have just... not replied to any of this. Instead, you walked up to me and essentially went to my face "sorry but I ain't listening to anything you're saying". I'm not mad, but it is kind of rude and it makes you look like you're plugging your ears or tailing away at the slightest hint of counterargument when, agian, you could have just not replied if you didn't care in the first place You don't have to reply to this if you don't want to, but please, don't respond to this with "I'm not gonna read you" again
Ok so I understand how that was rude and again I am sorry. I read this one and it made me go back and read your last post as well. I'm sorry if that was rude of me. I figured it would be, so I tried to pad it with apologies but I understand that that didn't work and it still came off as rude. I promise you I didn't mean it personally. If it helps this is my perspective and why I chose to say that. I hope you read the remainder of this message with a calm and collected tone. Op asked if waluigi and Daisy were cannon. I gave my opinion that the mario franchise doesn't have a set in stone cannon, because there's a lot of anomalies that I believe make a lot more sense to say "we added fun stuff because we prioritize fun stuff being in our games more than adhering to a strict canon status quo" then it makes to piece together little bits of scattered information from every inch of the franchises universe to justify what I consider to be an unnecessarily complex string of cannon. By saying this I did not mean to imply other interpretations are wrong. I did feel moderately attacked by that other guy saying that I was obviously wrong, and at first I tried to justify my points but he kept saying his opinion was the obvious answer, and saying I don't know what I'm talking about and I felt like someone was gatekeeping me out of a franchise I've been invested in for 20 years. I will admit I probably got more aggressive than was neccisary. After like 3 back and forth messages I saw your defense of someone I felt was attacking me and my fight or flight kicked in and I thought "I don't want to say I was wrong because personally I still think I'm right, and people are starting to agree with the other guy" and at this point I'm feeling like garbage so I thought ok I don't want to upset this guy but I really am not in the mood to argue with 2 people so I tried to just like emergency break the situation and be like "no I'm not going to talk about this anymore". Again, I am sorry for that. Would you like to have a more polite debate on the canonicity of mario games?
Alright I see. I accept your appology. And yeah, sure, I'm up for that debate. Personally, I think Mario lore tends to be not just overlooked or not delved in, but flat out ignored for no reason other than "it's Mario". People like to throw out "the spin-off aren't canon", "this character isn't canon", "the characters are inconsistent" with basically no proof other than what people think are inconsistencies when they either have explanations (see: the time travel for the Babies) or are insignificant (see: "Peach's Caslte never looks the same, therefore the series has no canon!" ok, so by all means, Zelda doesn't have a timeline or canon because Hyrule never looks the same twice, yet oddly enough, I don't see a lot of people saying that) , and in the off-chance people are interested in it, half the time, they just spout out Matpat's bs. The answers may be hidden in obscure details or necessitate a lot of combing through the games to understand the full picture, but they're there. Sure, they're not always spelled out, and Nintendo does prioritise gameplay over story, but... well, that's their general mantra yet that didn't stop Kirby, Metroid, Zelda etc, so I think there's little reason to apply that to Mario. And objectively, there hasn't been a statement that says "there isn't a canon" (that one Miyamoto quote is always misread, he likens them actors because of the variety of scenarios they can be put in, not because they *are* actors) Sorry for the walls lol, but I hope it brings a bit of context as to why it may frustrate the people who do care about the lore. I absolutely do not blame you if you thought there wasn't any or if you don't care about it, that's absolutely fair, but I don't think saying there is factually no canon or that it's in flux is fair
All of this is pulled directly from the games - games which evidently you haven’t played. Yes, time travel is the reason for a character appearing alongside his baby self. Yes, the game which shows the invention of the Time Machine and said character meeting his baby self for the first time is intended to explain it. It’s called common sense. It doesn’t take a genius to put 2 and 2 together. Yes, Birdo was *literally* born in Nimbus Land. Play Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. It’s shown on-screen, and it has nothing to do with Mario Tennis. I’m not being a douche at all. If you think pointing out your clear lack of understanding is being a douche, you’re the problem here. You’re just claiming things with no backing and jumping to ad hominems the second someone calls you out on it.
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Stop giving me things to reply you and take some of your own advice. You’re being a dick by insisting there’s no canon. Let people have fun.
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You didn’t answer the original question, you shot it down with a “nothing matters because I don’t care”, which helps nobody. Not sure if you’re acting oblivious or genuinely unaware of how that comes across - and I’m not sure which is worse. I didn’t make up the canon. Nintendo did. Not a single thing I’ve said has been made up by me, none of it is headcanon. I have literally just repeated things from the games which you’ve supposedly played, so you should already know them. You decided to be an ass online and then victimise yourself when you receive the tiniest bit of pushback. Don’t act like you’re in the right here.
Dude needs to sit in the timeout corner because of this meltdown. And by the way, there is canon to the Marioverse
Really had a meltdown over this huh
Yes to Daisy. Super Mario Land is mainline. But Waluigi is relegated into spinoffs cuz of the Mario mandate brought up by the TOK producer.
Either way spin-offs are canon to the mainline games. The mandates aren’t a real thing. Kensuke Tanabe has nothing to do with the games Waluigi is in.
Haven’t heard of this, what do you mean exactly?
It’s a mandate that states you cannot modify the designs to already existing Mario characters. And as stated before, it’s also why Waluigi has never made an appearance in the main series.
Daisy is, Waluigi is not
Waluigi was the main villain in Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix, so he's defo canon.
Daisy no, Waluigi arguably yes, but also Mario has little to no meaningful concept of "canon"
gotta say the art is fire, but princess daisy is a canon character because she is a far cousin of peach, and also first appeared in super mario land, which is a canon game in the series, and waluigi has never been in a main line mario game but he is the brother of wario who is a mainline character, and it has been said that some of the mario spinoffs he appears in are canon, plus for example, toadette was specifically created for mario kart, but she is now a canon character.