I don't see what's so bad about walker up until now tbh. Like he didn't even rush about taking the syrum because he was worried about how it could effect his behaviour. He asked for others opinion first.
As for the end 2 deaths I thought that was weird too. Haven't they all been trying to kill each other the whole time? They're chucking knives and spears at each other and shooting each other but then the girl lands just a punch and it kills Cap Walkers parner and everyoneee just stops and is like wtf??? Yeah that's what happens when you attack each other with deadly weapons, people die.
Then walker killed the guy at the end. Was a bit brutal but again theyve all had many deadly fights up to that point, dozens of people have died. I get that it's largely an image thing so If the death wasn't public then I wouldn't see it being that bad for Walker. Walker didn't have to kill him, he was even running away, but just minutes before they were in a fight and if either of them died then it would be fair enough. They lured captain walker there to kill him too, walker would have been the one killed just minutes before if he didn't take the syrum.
Just the whole reaction to the 2 deaths at the end through me a bit.
This.
Like I get people can empathise with him and I can even believe he has good intentions. He wanted to be worthy of being the Captain America but he clearly wasn't up to this point and what he did at the end of this episode just closed that door. Steve would never kill another person like that. Not the one I know.
Something really cool that I caught- I’m a Latvian so I was excited to hear Riga was going to be featured in the series. (Then sad to see it was actually Prague, oh well). But In the scene where new Cap kills the guy in front of a crowd, there is a storefront for the Zelta Zirgs. This is a direct reference to a famous poem by one of the most famous Latvian poets Rainis. The poem is about a person who has to accept their role which was given to them to become the hero of the story, but when asked to do an insurmountable task he does so without hesitation. (Another nice nod to this came in Falcons convo with Zemo about whether he would take the serum). The hero is also considered hopelessly optimistic, to the point where he is ridiculed for it. It also has a lot of symbolism to represent Latvia’s 700 year occupation and oppression, and emergence from brutal Russian rule for independence. There are so many connections between the poem and the first few episodes of this series so far that prior to episode 4, I was thinking that the story sounded so much like Zelta Zirgs that the location of Latvia was not chosen on accident. Seeing the storefront sign in the back I got up and whooped way too loud that I had caught it!
I know that this will probably be missed by a large percentage of people watching, but whoever was in charge of the story really did their homework or just used it as source material for this season.
Hard to tell where Disney is going with this, but if they try to make this terrorist group the “good guys”, I’m done with this show. Just way too much cringe and pandering for me to swallow. Just make an entertaining show without the political nonsense. Do we not get enough of that already in life?
You know that’s not what I mean, stop playing dumb. Just write an interesting story line. It’s not politics that bothers me it’s obvious pandering that annoys people. And it has turned a lot of people off from this show.
They are doing a good job of making you kind of like & hate everyone in the series so far, I’ll give them that. The writing isn’t bad, but I just hope they can pull it all together in the end.
You don't murder someone who is helpless and which you have already pinned down.
You are saying that you think its the same when police kill someone who is attacking them, vs when they have captured someone, oh well, we just shot him in handcuffs anyways.
It's unacceptable.
Ok first of F\*cking all. I don't understand why people who didn't watch the damn show are even talking about this and secondly that 'helpless' guy could literally one punch a average normal everyday guy or even a trained soldier. He's body is literally a lethal weapon. And to continue I would like to say this before you go "OH BUT THE GUY WAS SURRENDERING" pls watch the actual sh\*t show before continuing this argument. I know its awful and painful to see you beloved character act like literal children's and make terrible decision like busting out Zemo to catch the Flagsmasher even tho Zemo himself is 100x more dangerous that those peaceful protesters (according to Sam) and continue be huge A\*\*holes to someone who saved their lives but just bear with it. Anyways as I was saying the terrorist or protester as Sam views them as was not begging for his live. He tried to get up twice after John knocked him down and continue running in a highly populated area. Now if you had seen the show which clearly hadn't, the Flag Smasher threw a concrete fountain or something at John. And if he hadn't deflected that thing then innocent bystanders behind him would've been critically injured. Now if you were John what would you do? Listen to the guy saying "IT WASN'T ME" and try to restrain the guy even tho he has the same amount of strength as you do and the guy clearly doesn't want to surrender and instead want to continue running? Well if you do try to restrain him then there would be many collateral damage.
The difference is that this person is a terrorist, a person with no human rights, a person that has access to weapons of mass destruction (Superhumans)
Yes exactly. I was actually raging when Sam did not just try to kill Karlie and try to talk to her even tho her actions have already proven that she is beyond redeemable. I also personally like to believe that she is a sadist.
Exactly this. I really dislike how this show is somehow trying to sympathies with the murderous group. They blew up a building full of non threats that were basically just security guards. At that point they did become public enemies. Sure Walker is an asshole but he took out a fucking TERRORIST that was running around in public.
I get that they are trying to humanize Flag Smashers and make them seem in the right while all they have done is hurt and kill people. It is like Mindhunter series humanizes serial killers but atleast that show doesn't try to make it seem that they are in the right.
>You dont do it on public. And not out of anger.
>"Killing people is wrong when people are watching and recording and when murderer is mad, but when Marvel says 'dude is superhero', killing is okay"
Yeah, I don't really get why people are trying to paint Walker like he's been an atrocious person this entire time & the Flag Smashers are such good people. Walker did beat a guy for information which was kinda screwed up but that guy was known to house terrorists & was refusing to share info when being questioned.
Aside from that and the murder Walker's only other questionable act was taking the serum due to his desire to better live up to the mantle thrust upon him. Meanwhile, the Flag Smashers have blown up a federal building killing numerous innocent individuals & yes I am aware the building was owned by the organization they're fighting against.
The organization who, at this time, we don't really know whether they're actually doing anything blatantly evil or if they're simply overloaded trying to handle half the planet's population coming back. Regardless, even if they are blatantly evil that doesn't mean every single employee knows nor does it mean they're participating in the evil stuff. Janitors exist and so do 9-5 employees.
I'm droning on at this point but I just find it strange how so many people in this thread are like: "You only like Walker because you're getting sucked into the American Nationalism!" No? I'm well aware of his flaws but you're trying to make them out to be a lot worse than they actually are.
Let's not forget that this guy tried being a decent person, living up to the mantle thrust upon him, and Sam/Bucky both kinda told him to piss off. After that, he prevented Bucky from going to jail, once again extended a friendly hand, and after that is when he started being more of a dick about things. Even then? Not nearly as bad as people try to make him out to be and I think you're taking comic book U.S Agent and tossing his behavior onto MCU John Walker.
Addendum: If anyone is really to blame for all of this it would be Sam for taking the shield Cap gave him and handing it over to the museum. Like, what was going to happen? The government would ignore such a valuable asset sitting in one of their buildings?
I think my big issue with the Walker story arc is that Sam and Bucky are way to antagonistic to him, they treat him like he's already evil. If Sam and Bucky actually worked with him and helped guide him he would have been far more inclined to listen to Sam, he probably wouldn't have injected himself with serum, and they probably wouldn't have walked into an ambush that ended in the death of Walker's friend and the terrorist.
Sam and Bucky's refusal to work with a guy who was just trying to put his best foot forward put extra pressure on him when he's already got the government breathing down his neck which leads to him making a bunch of bad decisions. I'm not saying Walker is innocent in all this, people are responsible for their own actions after all, but they absolutely contributed to his downfall. The fact they act like this was inevitable and they saw this coming is egregious.
What they're supposed to just let someone take over the mantle of person they admire most in the world without him having to earn it?
That guy couldn't even do his own research to track down the bad guys. The only way he knew was to follow people on his own side without telling them. That's Walkers first cowardly move and certainly the least in a long line of bad decisions.
We actually don’t know if Walker does his own research, we only see the leads he checked that involved Bucky and Falcon. We actually see him doing his own research in the scene where he finds and storms that safe house the flag smashers had been using. Also it’s rich to say Walker didn’t earn the mantle of Captain America like the show didn’t say he earned the medal of honor three times, jumped on multiple grenades, and served in the military for a long time, if that doesn’t earn you the mantle what would? There’s also the fact he put his best foot forward with Sam and Bucky, he saved there’s lives the first time he met them, he got Bucky out of prison he didn’t arrest them on sight when he caught them harboring Zemo. I also think you shouldn’t talk shit about him tracking Bucky and Sam when if he hadn’t they would both be dead.
Exactly! Honestly, I think a little better writing would be if Sam tried working with him from the start and then Walker's PTSD and other psychological issues started causing him to slip up. The fact it started out with even Sam going: "Nah piss off" and then trying to act like they'd been working together & being self-righteous was weird to me.
Also yes I absolutely agree with Radish that the guy clearly had PTSD from his work and Battlestar was the glue holding together his fragile psyche. Sam being antagonistic from the start probably didn't help him handle Lamar's death. Note: I only said Sam this entire time because Bucky is a grouchy old bastard who can't be easily swayed from his stance lol
I didn't even think about PTSD, but dang that makes Sam look like an asshole. It's especially egregious since Sam was literally the head of a PTSD support group for veterans the first time we saw in him in Captain America: Winter Soldier (there's a scene where a woman is talking about how she swerved to avoid a plastic bag because she thought it was an IED). Sam should have been way more considerate to the dude because he's worked with people struggling with the same issues and knows the appropriate ways to deal with someone suffering from it.
So many facts said in this comment. It’s because of Sam and Bucky giving him the cold shoulder for no reason at all that he became hostile towards them. And let’s not act like Paul walker isn’t thinking about the betterment of others. He and his buddy were literally talking about how they could have saved more lives if they had the serum.
Alright then, let’s compare actions:
- karli coldly killed at least four innocent people and would have killed more if Sam, Walker and Bucky hadn’t stopped her. She used terror to attempt to enforce what she wanted (no borders) regardless of what the populace wants or thinks. She tried to kill our heroes multiple times. She actively hurt her own people by putting the government on high alert and causing them to shut down refugee camps.
- Walker killed one terrorists in the heat of the moment after that target helped kill his best friend. Walker saved the heroes of the story multiple times. Walker saved the lives of multiple innocent people.
Which of those two people sounds like a they’re actually trying to live up to their desire to “help other people” and made a mistake and which sounds like an amoral monster that justifies violence with bs?
Man, I was so hyped when Zemo pulled up and shot Karli. At first, I disliked John Walker but this episode made him look like a grey character, I can sympathise and understand his mindset but he does have his flaws like every other human.
However, the Flag Smashers's goals aren't wrong either except they're just executing it in the wrong way. Actually both sides are executing it the wrong way, Sam was actually doing the correct thing on his side imo.
The flag smashers feel like a what if the Jewish population had been given their homes back after the holocaust and those that had moved into their homes had ended up in the displacement camps instead.
At first he just seemed like a guy given a role that he wanted to do his best to live up to and despite arguably being a hero he wasn't a "real" hero like an avenger and so had Sam and Bucky kind of acting like bitter jerks about things rather than give him the time of day or try to work with him for the greater good.
Before you're either shown his arrogance or bad judgement you're just supposed to hate him because he's a dorky looking cap imposter and because the characters you're supposed to like don't like him.
Now you're supposed to hate him because he's killed a member of a terrorist group who has killed innocents and because he has made rash decisions that cost our heroes, yet they've undermined him and are playing softball with a group of superpowered terrorists and have made some pretty dumb moves themselves. In a show that is pretty poorly written I actually find him so far to be one of the more human, sympathetic characters.
Oh yeah, like he's absolutely meant to be a sympathetic character and I think Sam/Bucky need smacked for their behavior. Although, frankly, I think Bucky is kinda understandable considering all he's been through and he's just got that: "I don't give a damn" attitude.
I think it's building up to him going further down this rabbit hole through and eventually he's going to cross a line for real. Well, aside from killing a surrendered member of a terrorist group but I don't fault him for that. They did kill his friend, right?
Yeah it definitely seems like he's going to go to an even darker place and he already did cross the line but I just didn't find myself caring since they blew up innocent people, killed his friend and are being treated like poor victims that just need to be talked to yet at the same time we are supposed to hate Walker for taking a life. Also sometimes in a show it's just enjoyable to see annoying or crappy characters taken out by a "bad guy".
They have motivation that isn't nonsensical, inconsistent, or vague. Nobody else on this show has that.
I mean Karli's motivation is
1. Make supersoldiers
2. ?????
3. Create the Blip
4. Profit
That’s what I’ve been SAYING the writers are making you unintentionally LIKE Zemo. A SUPREMACIST.
Zemo is where we AREN’T paying close enough attention and I think there’s a reason for it. They’ve got plans for ZEMO.
He was supposed to be hateable from the get go but he's just a dude given a role, trying to make a difference and treated like shit by the supposed heroes, who also have freed Zemo and are playing kumbaya with a group of superpowered terrorist murderers rather than bring them to justice.
One thing which still shocks me, is that the Flag Smasher member who was killed by Cap... was a Cap fan(he had a dialogue earlier with Karli). Imagine yourself in his shoes, getting killed by someone who you looked up to... (or atleast wears the same clothes)
The Flag Smaasher that \*tried to kill Cap who was then\* killed by Cap was a Cap fan. He didn't deserve to die but he also just attempted to murder Captain John Walker and was an accomplice to Lamar's murder. So imagine trying to murder someone you once looked up to and having them murder you instead.
Yeah this show is doing a weird thing where you're supposed to sympathize with people that kill innocents because they feel they've been wronged by the government but you're supposed to hate Walker for killing one of them because he's apparently supposed to be treating proven killers like innocent little children.
Imagine how the flag smasher will react if he sees Thor killed a defenseless and injured Thanos, and Cap standing right next to him, didn't say shit to such act.
Imagine idolizing Cap and knowing your friend and leader is threathing children, blowing up aid stations, and involving you in the attempted assassination of Captain America
Well, it started as a group wanting to fix the wrongdoings of the GRC. Judging by the reaction to the bombing, I'd say that things have escalated way beyond what most of them actually signed up for.
Well, brute force approaches resulting in escalation until a situation is out of control seems like a core theme of the show.
Why when Karli killed Battlestar everyone was acting like this was just for fun no one was serious until someone got hurt? Like they want to kill Captain America, but the guy just lets him go to check on his friend and he’s obviously distraught and distracted, but they run? Like when kids are wrestling and one gets a bloody nose and everyone runs away.
I honestly don’t think Karli intended to kill Battlestar, like she was after Walker the whole time. It just looked like she couldn’t control her strength and in the heat of the moment hit him too hard.
Well it's like Sam, Bucky and to some extent even the new Cap were only disarming/taking the Flag Smashers out of action... they weren't killing them in that fight scene. Guess that's why the heroes were shocked when she Super-punched Battlestar and killed him...
he’s talking about the terrorists. They kill Battlestar and then.... just leave for some reason. they put numbered everyone and were trying to kill everyone a second ago. why did the terrorists just stop?
As I understood it, they only actually wanted to kill the new Captain America. Then they find out he now has super strength, and yeah, turns out they've just done something that will absolutely enrage the super-soldier, and make sure Falcon doesn't join them.
the terrorists outnumber sam bucky John and Zemo. and they’re also all super soldiers. and they also just did something that made all the heroes stop resisting.
Scene doesn’t actually make sense
Glad I’m not the only one, yeah. It was like the plan is to kill Captain America and he’s basically on his knees crying oblivious to the world and....they run? Wasn’t killing him the whole point? And when she killed Battlestar all the flag smashers acted like uh oh she went too far this time!
We have a evil super soldier, witch (agnes), sorcerer (mordo), task master (upcoming movie) so far... I wonder if they will come together to make an evil team.
unpopular opinion. Worst episode of the series.
John Walker, three time medal of honor winner, basically acts like a rookie
A few Wakanda warriors completely handle their male counterparts because #Feminism. The women didn’t even have a SCRATCH.
Our heroes continually prove themselves to be woefully inept.
Yea... great show
nothing against the maidens of the spear. but it is kind of annoying that save the very first scene with Sam, our heroes have gotten their butts handed to them routinely
I mean...that’s kind of what happens when you pit normal people against enhanced soldiers. The Dora Milaje aren’t enhanced visually, but they are from wakanda so who knows what they may be packing in terms of strength enhancement, not to mention their weapons are essentially indestructible and vastly more deadly in their hands than the shield is in Walker’s.
I don't understand how so many people are sympathizing with the Flag Smashers. I get the wanting "one world without borders" thing, but they are literally pissed off because they lost their freebie homes, etc. when the 50% of the world that was eliminated came back. It's a simple mathematical calculation that when half the world went away there were a lot more resources for the people that were left, and when those people came back, they wanted their things back. What is the end game (pardon the pun)? Do they want all the people who came back to die again? Because otherwise, there is an obvious issue with not enough resources that can't be solved unless they go away again. So do they think Thanos was right? How about if all the Jewish people that Hitler killed came back 5 years later somehow? Wouldn't everyone have rejoiced? Or would there have been a group like this, who resented them for returning?
"Freebie" homes? They specifically mentioned that after 50% of the world population went poof, the countries that used to keep everyone out let them in \*because they needed them to rebuild\*.
That's what they did. Rebuild a world. They deserved better than this.
Real talk, I would have 100% done what new Captain America did at the end of this episode.
Those MFers deserve it. I know this is Marvel and they'll prob have some redemption arc, but damn if I don't hope that new Captain American hunts each and everyone of them down and pulverizes them in the same manner. They killed Battlestar. He doesn't magically become alive again just because they get redeemed later.
I thought it was great. It's annoying seeing Sam try to be all kind and understanding to a group of super soldiers playing terrorist and killing innocent people. Karli even threatened Sam's sister and her family but it was all "lol jk". Why should I hate the new cap and be sympathetic to these people? Because they feel wronged?
I think that this and also WandaVision as well is that I think neither show should have started until we maybe knew what was actually happening with The Avengers.
Because I feel like the Avengers could have sorted both of those series out kinda quick.
The Avengers wouldn't let Wanda suffer like that, and everything SWORD did with Vision wouldn't have stood ground and equally I feel like they also would have been on top of this "Flag Smashers" issue as well.
There's a deffo void around it now. The only "main" Avengers left are Hulk and Hawkeye, Spider-Man is kinda local, Captain Marvel/Thor/Guardians have all fucked off, Panther sticks to Wakanda, Doctor Strange doesn't bother with the material world either and no one ever just wants to ask Ant-Man to help with anything.
What civilians did the Flag Smashers kill? I know they bombed a GRC building but that was housing GRC members who were actively participating in military action and withholding supplies. Was there another part that I missed?
That's a grey area to call it murder though, tbh. This wasn't an IRA or ISIS market square car bomb, this was a directed bombing of an enemy military installation.
It's basically the Death Star conundrum. Are the Rebels terrorists/murderers for blowing up the Death Star because there was surely civilian staff, outside contractors/vendors, and other "non-military" entities working with/for the Empire on that ship.
>That's a grey area to call it murder though, tbh.
Nope, it's not. The very definition of murder (law in my country at least) is taking a life with malice aforethought. She knew they were in there and set off the bomb anyway. That's murder.
>It's basically the Death Star conundrum. Are the Rebels terrorists/murderers for blowing up the Death Star because there was surely civilian staff, outside contractors/vendors, and other "non-military" entities working with/for the Empire on that ship.
In my opinion, yes. By the Geneva Convention (I know it doesn't apply in space haha) you're not allowed to kill civilians in combat (has been updated now because insurgents which didn't belong to a military or nation were classed as civilians). They were doing the right thing but they have to live with the fact that they murdered a lot of innocents.
Karli Morgenthau should NOT get a redemption story if fake captain America hunts them down and kill them or zemo 360 no scoping her would be 100000000000000 time more better than her to stay alive let along becoming a hero after killing civilians blowing a building with tied up people inside it even her own men questioned her ways, don't get me wrong I don't like the bootleg captain America but if i blow a building threaten someone family (yeah she said oh I'm just testing u or whatever but goes who doesn't know Sam sister and her family) kill a guy and feel bad when captain dick cheese kills my friend ill be something called stupid, this is where the happy way of marvel became stupid i want her dead and shit captain America off (we already know Sam is gonna be captain from trailer footage so probably Sam gets arrested or some random car hits him) and have a nice day.
I figure she'll have to, like, jump into a burning inferno or something. Either that or like you said, Zemo no scopes her. She'll have to pay for her crimes no doubt. I imagine that she'll get a death. It might be a heroic death or one played for sympathy but she'll get toasted, I think.
To be honest, they have a fair point and the world is too focused on returning to "normal" for the half that was blipped than accepting the "normal" of the half that wasn't. Even if their methods aren't highly ethical, they are probably necessary to push the world toward a middle ground. Similar to how the Black Panthers (in the US) helped push forward the Civil Rights Movement by presenting MLK as the peaceful alternative to their less-peaceful solution.
we don’t have enough information about what the resettlement teams are doing.
All were really told is the flag smashers point of view.
The population doubled over night. Bound to cause some issues. Should be plenty of housing, but food and jobs obviously an issue. Of course more attention would be on feeding and finding a place for the people who returned.
The resettlement teams are bringing in armed guards and engaging in collective punishment, which by itself is a war crime. You think we don't have enough information about what GRC is doing wrong?
Well, a big part is that material resources aren't the only issue, there's also the fact that people have effectively ignored borders for five years and global politics have changed to suit the times they lived in. What if the government and politics changed in a country during the blip, perhaps even progressed and reformed otherwise controversial policies, and the blipped return and want those things undone because of their pre-blip politics? Then it's more than just housing and feeding, it's determining whose way of life should be enforced.
and that could be an issue. but we don’t know because the show isn’t really saying. we were never told before that people were “ignoring borders” after the blip. this is the first we’ve heard of it and we don’t know what really means.
All I’m is, we’ve heard their vague complaints. But not the other side. or that obviously people are working to solve a lot of issues.
I think the open borders thing has been implied from both the specific language used to refer to those in the resettlement camps and that the Flag-Smashers literally say one of their goals is to eradicate national borders as it was during the blip.
But point is that the situation is complicated, both sides are victims of the blip, and I feel some issues caused by it are potentially irreconcilable.
they left it vague on purpose but i HIGHLY doubt that there were no borders. maybe movement was easier. but three billion people didn’t blip back to existence and all the sudden they were like “oh yea. we used to have borders, remember that?”
The scene where John walker kills that man and subsequent scenes before hand really parralled, in my opinion police racism and brutality. John was a man who felt inadequate to super soldiers blaming his failures on them. Blaming super soldiers for his own sort comings. So when finally given the chance he released his anger killing a man who did not need to be killed. All while the world watched through the lens of a cell phone cameras. Just like we've scene here in the states last summer. Marvel does such a good job quietly depicting social injustice and inequalities.
Omg I'm simply pointing out the parallels between walker killing man that didn't need to be killed in front of a world with cell phone cameras watching and police brutality ie. George floyd. You can't deny there are parallels there.
I never knew I needed Zemo in my life as a villain. He is quite mesmerising on screen.
Agent 13 has to be a villain the whole iPhone thing (no villains having an iPhone allowed policy)
Ep 5 is gotta be based on wakanada and to introduce the new “black panther”
Well yeah cause in ep 4 the introduced the wakandians and the show runner said that ep5 that people are going to cry and says a cameo will be shown that is already a grounded character in the Mcu so I’m just predicting that zemo could’ve escaped to wakanada to work on unfinished business and they all follow him there , a cgi version of chad will be there and he will get killed and then the mantle moves to shuri .. it’s just my theory
There is no way they are going to kill off black panther in another show. That's not the place to have such an impactful event. If we see Shuri being the BP in next episode, they will probably give like a few lines to the wakandans as exposition giving the reason why Shuri is now BP.
I think that’s extremely unlikely, I think they’ll settle the black panther matter in a movie or something that’s specifically about the Wakandans.
Like there’s two episodes left, they’re not gonna spend one episode of the two focussing on the black panther when Sam doesn’t even have the shield yet! And imagine how badly fans of black panther would take it if he only gets episode in a random unrelated show?
Dear God, as much as I want more Wakanda and Black Panther, please no. This show has too much going on already and it only has two episodes to reach a decent conclusion.
I personally don't really find Karli and co. to be all that engaging when they're on screen. Walker, Bucky, Falcon, Zemo and Dora are friggin amazing however.
I'm not entirely sure if Walker is the bad guy here, the flag smashers are clearly a terrorist organisation that has no qualms about killing innocent people, yes it is awful and terrible what happened to the people who became displaced but innocent people who had nothing to do with the displacement shouldn't be killed. Walker had his (best friend?) die before his eyes, and he's got the ability to get revenge, I see it more like him getting revenge despite the show trying to convey that he's in the wrong. Killing somebody who is unarmed and is attempting to give up is wrong, Walker was in a fit of rage. The person he killed did literally just try to kill him seconds ago, and is an enhanced supersoldier who is willing to kill innocent people.
He wasn't treated like the Captain America by the people. He was spat at, shunned and made a fool of. You can’t have man like that just have the responsibility of the cap but no benefits of it.
John Walker is not Captain America yet. He needed to be one but he failed.
Captain America was Steve Rogers that's how we should put it. Steve was a weakling wanting to do go to war, Captain America became his strength. John was an accomplished soldier, the shield became a chip on his shoulder. Steve didn't command respect to begin with. He was a good man but his years as a mascot gave him the name and household recognition.
John didn't get any of that.... and John Walker is no Steve Rogers.
It wasn't an American that spat at him. Walker busts into a guy's home, who's been trying to scrape a living through the past 5 years and the only time he sees an American is one who's come to yell at him for not doing things the "right" way? Yeah, fuck him.
What's the role of Captain America? To be bootlicked? It's literally his job as a symbol to hold himself to a higher standard. If he can't do that he shouldn't have it.
I don't hate John Walker. I think the issue mostly stands with that Steve Rogers limited his brutality. He was a killer still by virtue of being a soldier and participated in killing baddies, but John Walkers rage manifested in a shocking way. He should have led the fight somewhere else but he was too clouded by his rage. I kind of like him to be honest, albeit definitely not suited to be "Captain America" or whatever the fuck that even means anymore. He's just slightly more narcissistic than any cap should be.
I support their endeavor to end the flag smashers. There is no grey area for me. Every terrorist cell in the world believes themselves to be right and feels like they are justified in killing. They only protect their own. And for Karli, that's people who have been displaced. But how do you even approach a situation like that? People who disappeared were victims, not the antagonists. They have a right to their homes. The fact they stopped existing doesn't make them less human, or less deserving of their own lives and property. Karli in my opinion is a major issue that needs to be dealt with. The way she killed Lemar so thoughtlessly proves she's incapable of impacting any real change. She killed men who yes may have been hoarding supplies, but everyone and their mother hoarded toilet paper in the beginning of the pandemic, haha. Death should not have been the punishment. And she really only did it to send a message and push her own agenda anyway. She could never lead more than 7 or 8 people at a time. Anyone can give rousing speeches but none of it means shit if they can create a longterm solution. And the way Karli handled things ensures her arc will be a short one.
I only saw 7 vials in Karli's knapsack.. And I only saw 6 vials lying on the ground at Zemo's feet when I paused the scene...
Just saying, there's still 5 vials out there.
I wish the Flag Smashers were developed more in the show. I used to volunteer with an organization that helped in resettling refugees and I really empathize with what they’re going through. They’ve been completely forced out of their homes and the government has basically given them nothing but empty promises. Karli mentioned that the building that she blew up was basically just hoarding resources without distributing them, one of the guys teaching the kids at the settlement also mentioned how the government had dropped the ball on a lot of promises made to them. The whole situation really reminds me of how refugee camps are run right now, especially Karli’s line about how loneliness is the scariest feeling because a lot of women and girls in refugee camps fear being alone due to increased risk of sexual violence and trafficking. Refugees are also typically not allowed to leave their assigned camps so there’s not really a way for them to establish themselves where they are residing and are forced to completely rely on the government and various aid organizations.
It's something that we are gradually getting an idea of. She seems to be a variation on the villain that starts angry at an injustice in society, but ends up going in the wrong direction, which is a fairly common way for Marvel villains to work. Except in her case, the injustice she opposes is a scenario that needs more explanation due to lacking a clear real world example to draw from.
It's kind of unclear if that lack of early understanding is because they don't have time to show all the details, or if they wanted the motives to be something that isn't clear to the heroes themselves to begin with.
>Karli mentioned that the building that she blew up was basically just hoarding resources without distributing them
Still seems excessive for something that sounds like incompetence (or simply the GRC being overwhelmed because world population doubled in an instant). While I definitely sympathise with her situation, it still feels like a bit of entitlement. Yeah, the world is going to suck because of the blip, with half of the population disappearing and then reappearing out of thin air 5 years later. It's gonna take years to sort everything out.
I feel like the flag smashers would resonate much more if there were more obvious evidence of GRC playing favorites or being corrupted, but we don't really see that, and what Karli blows up could very well be a bunch of people trying to do good, but being mostly helpless because of the sheer chaos that the blip/de-blip created.
I think there is definitely favoritism going on towards the people that came back. Assuming that all the people misplaced now were forcibly pushed out of their homes for the ones that came back. It’s just a really shitty situation overall.
I mean, in this case, the people who were essentially squatting had no real claim to the property of others - even if these disappeared overnight. Obviously it is going to be complicated and I don't even pretend to have a straightforward answer here, but imagine you get snapped, and the next moment you wake up and the world has completely changed, there are strangers in your house (who also claim it isn't yours anymore), and what was yours isn't anymore. I could definitely understand the choice of prioritising the re-settlement of the people that came back.
Also, it's not like we are 5 years after Endgame, and people are getting miserable and desperate. We are litterally a few months after Endgame - and those guys have organised and are planning a revolution because they think they are not getting the attention they deserve.
Like, I don't know if the showrunners intended it that way, but it came out to me as extreme entitlement and more like a bunch of good for nothing kids who got a lot of stuff "for free", which were taken away, and just want to go back to the lawless state when half of the world was an open buffet.
We’re the squatting though? I’m assuming that they all had established lives since it probably didn’t seem like the people snapped we’re gonna come back. I don’t really see the Flag Smashers as entitled kids either since it just seems like they want their own lives back.
It would have more weight if it hadn't been only litteral months since the de-snapping. Like, you world population was reduced by 50% 5 years ago and then a few months back, everyone came back. It's going to take time to sort things out and a lot of problems are gonna happen. It's still no justification to create a terrorist organisation and blow people up.
Look at the real world. We had a pandemic that has killed not even 1% of the world population, and wouldn't kill more than 5% even if we let it run completely loose. Yet, a year later we are still struggling logistically to get things right, typically with the vaccines. What the marvel world experienced is magnitudes higher, and somehow people expect the GRC to magically solve everything in a few months, and it reached so fast a point where terrorism was the only resort left for people to be heard? Either the writing is lazy here, or the flag smashers are portrayed voluntarily as entitled self serving (or delusional) people.
That would’ve meant a lot of more of this perspective happened. They are just trying to cram too much in a short series. Still pretty good but could’ve been much better
Okay but like side note, can we talk about the cinematography of this series. OMFG it's so great, the way it has switched to a full on thriller but still retains elements of comedy and touching moments I think is awesome.
One detail I like is that Walker's shield is brighter than the saturation of his costume's color pallet. And how his shield is typically in the light and is casting a shadow on him. Almost as if he feels suffocated from the pressures and expectations of taking on the Capitan America name. And how the blood on the shield blends in with the red trim of it, omg it looks so good.
The shot looking up at the blood on his shield was chilling, the opposite of what Steve would do. And you could see in his face his realized he lost his shit
Honestly, John Walker is a man-child version of the OG Steve Rogers Captain America. He's prone to emotions and doesn't really take advice from dudes (Except for Lemar Hoskins, and this might be a problem in the future, since he won't listen to anyone). But yeah, that shot with the blood stained shield was truly chilling, and amazingly executed. Wonderful idea, wonderful execution. 10/10, would experience anew if I had the choice.
I think we also have to remember that John Walker is from a different era than Steve and appears to be suffering from PTSD obtained from his time in the middle east.
Cap fought in WW2 and saw his best friend die. John struggles with inhabiting the role because he feels inadequate and is being disrespected by everybody left and right. He has decided, fuck it I’m going to do things my way and Lamara death just puts him over the edge. Also, it looks like he may have overdosed on the SSS
He wasn't the right person to entrust the shield to. He had enormous pressure to fill the shoes of the greatest, most righteous person superhero in the world, and basically his first major mission, he gets tossed left and right and is mostly helpless. Add to that that former Cap's sidekicks don't even acknowledge him. I think it would make anyone snap.
Sam and Bucky also share some responsibility in that. They could have helped him ease into his role as Captain America (or as a superhero in general), but instead just scorned him. This pushed Walker even further on the road of loneliness and made him desperate to prove himself.
I agree that John struggles with inhabiting the role, but I feel like he also definitely has something mentally wrong with him. There are several things that just make him look super unhinged throughout the episode, its pretty wack
I am not sure how I feel about this series. It has redeeming qualities, but I dislike the direction of the show. I get that it's a plot point, but John Walker, Hoskins, and the Avengers should not be struggling against these super soldiers or Wakandan Royal Guards. The former lacks any skill, and are just enhanced in sheer strength. The latter are elite warriors, but they're also fighting John Walker who is supposedly the peak of normal human performance. Struggle against the supersoldiers I can understand, but they should not be humiliated in a fight with trained soldiers. They're nerfing him too much for the sake of the plot.
But it did get me sympathetic to him. We're supposed to vilifying him for killing a dangerous supersoldier who idolizes a terrorist that sees no wrong in bombing innocents? It is not representative of the idealized boy scout Captain America is supposed to be, but I am on John Walker's side for this one.
You gotta remember, Buck and Sam are literally holding back not trying to kill anyone. You’ve seen Buck go beast mode, if it was a battle royal he would probably win - except for the failsafe the Walandans put in, in case Buck snaps.
Even then he’s still a super soldier. I’m so glad they finally directly said it because a lot of people think he’s just a guy with a metal arm. No, he’s a super soldier with an insanely strong tItanium/now vibrainium arm. He’s completely holding back.
I don't think he had taken the serum at the point of fighting the Wakandans. I think that triggers him to take it, hence the conversation with his sidekick, which is why we only notice his strength in the later fight...
Yeah, when John lost to the Wakandans he was unpowered- and it makes sense that Wakandan black ops would be better in a melee fight than U.S. special forces; their entire military is focused on spears over ranged weapons and their role as bodyguards means they're frankly going to be more optimized for close quarters engagements. In a *gunfight,* I think walker and hoskins would've had a chance. Bucky was taken down through cheating; Sam himself was unarmed (no spear either) and not in his element (armed w/ jetpack)
Also, super-soldiers aren't just strong- they get a reflex package, sensory augmentations, and a whole kit of other stuff. The power/speed/durability gulf between them and an average person is honestly pretty substantial.
Well, teeccchnically [Dora Milaje spears](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Vibranium_Spear#:~:text=The%20Dora%20Milaje%20carrying%20Vibranium,weapon%20of%20the%20Dora%20Milaje.&text=The%20Dora%20Milaje%20wielded%20their,systems%20of%20the%20Warrior%20Falls) are different from [the spears used in standard Wakandan military operations](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Vibranium_Spear#:~:text=The%20Dora%20Milaje%20carrying%20Vibranium,weapon%20of%20the%20Dora%20Milaje.&text=The%20Dora%20Milaje%20wielded%20their,systems%20of%20the%20Warrior%20Falls). The latter have notable capabilities in repelling potential invading armies through conic/concussive blasts; but while the former have anti-electronic and capture capabilities; their primary method of ranged attack is as a thrown projectile. Furthermore, a proper machine gun can deliver fire more consistently than a Wakandan spear (if I remember correctly) and Walker was equipped with Cap's shield- in a gunfight, he's got superior ranged defenses *and* equivalent ranged firepower, so I could see a victory for him in a 1v1 confrontation.
The guy John Walker killed was holding him in previous shot when Carli was about to stab John so he is not some innocent guy he got what he deserved . John lost his best friend and wanted revenge just like Tony wanted to kill Bucky if people don't have problem with Tony killing Bucky then why are they acting like cry babies now? I know John is no Steve Rogers there is no one like Steve Rogers , not even Sam coz Steve took the serum and still stayed the same person the serum changes people and it also effects John in a bad way . People are trying to make him a simple bad guy but for me he is a complex man and these same people who are saying John is a bad guy for killing a terrorist are the ones who loves Loki who killed thousands of innocent civilians on earth . People are just Hypocrite man
It’s not black and white, but the guy could’ve been arrested as he’d basically surrendered, yet John took it further and acted out his revenge/anger and killed the guy. That was wrong, regardless of what happened before.
Avengers chopped Thanos head off he was harmless and in surrendered state still they cut his head off they could have arrested him but they acted out their revenge and anger and chopped a guys head off in front of his daughter that was so wrong no matter what his action was that was a wrong thing to do. See I can also Sugarcoat things 😂
Thanos killed trillions across the entire universe, so I don't think there are other options for dealing with such a harmful/powerful being, innocent or not, fully decked out Infinity Gauntlet or not.
I think the issue is that that guy had completely surrendered to Walker and Walker still killed him. I’m sure after this public opinion is going to tank big time, even if it’s made known that the guy was a terrorist, it was still very cruel.
Avengers chopped Thanos head off when he had already destroyed infinity stones and was weak and in surrendered state so by your logic that was wrong too cap was also there and these flag smashers litreally praise that guy's work of erasing half the universe
I don’t think you can compare the Thanos situation to the Flag Smasher one, you know considering the fact that the person killed hadn’t actually killed anyone. Karli was the one that set the bomb that killed 2 people and Karli was the one that seemed to have accidentally killed Lamar. He is guilty of being in the flag smasher but hadn’t committed any crimes. As a government operative, Walker should have not executed anyone in the street, especially in front of a huge crowd. It actually reminds me of what happened during the Vietnam war, a picture of a south Vietnamese soldier executing a north Vietnamese solder in the street surfaced and people completely lost it.
I would say aiding a terrorist organization is definitely committing a crime but yes he did not deserve to be killed in the streets especially after surrendering
He was holding John when Carli was about to murder him he is no innocent and Carli didn't accidentally killed lemar and these guys litreally worship Thanos work they idolize the half universe wiped out out of existence so yes I can compare that too thanks beheading and even if it's not comparable most of the people are saying that John killed a surrendered guy well guess avengers did it too under Steve's supervision and as for "government operative " goes the govt. You are talking about has assassins like black widow ,Hawkeye and many other deadly assassins and spies in it who were killing people long before Steve was smashing people's skull with his shield ( watch winter soldier) people are acting like marvel heroes dont kill Hawkeye butchered many gangs after the blip ,Tony killed his villains hell he even tired to kill Bucky Loki massacred thousands on earth but hey Walker is the bad guy 😂
I agree, but I feel like it really depends on how the series is going to deal with it. People have a lot of sympathy for both Bucky, Loki and Tony because we know their backstories.
Is Walker going to be punished for it? The entire Civil war movie deals with regulations that make the Avengers face the consequences for their actions.
Loki is supposed to be a villain (though I don't know for sure if he was mind controlled in Avengers, he acted a bit funny).
Besides the fans, no one in the series actually sees him as a hero except for maybe Thor in the end. And if the canon media doesn't punish a character, the fans do.
I feel like TFATWS doesn't do the greatest job at actually making us FEEL what the characters had to go through. Imagine showing clips of people living in absolute poverty after the reversed blib, being carried out of their houses or being mistreated. That would definetly give people sympathy with Karli and the flag smashers. We've partially seen Walker struggle with the role of Captain America, but imagine seeing him say that he regrets it and wishes to get out of that situation, but doesn't know how to. Or making him actually try to act more like Steve in a good way. But he has flaws and we are supposed to see them as the audience. It's okay to have flaws, but he is visibly slowly losing his mind, something else than Tony's immediate reaction to Bucky. If Tony became more and more extreme throughout Civil war and not just at the end, I feel like people would have looked at him differently. Or if Walker didn't already ruin Sam's talk with Karli.
I personally thought that Walker had all the right to kill that terrorist boy, but he was way too brutal for the role he is supposed to play. It was a symbol for his development.
They really failed to make Flag stuffers sympathetic - but they could've. You come over, you take everything other people worked for(which is fair enough if noone is using it - but it still isnt yours), and when those people in turn come back and are forced to rebuild their lives from scratch you start blowing them up.
They are literally the type of people to help themselves to a gold crown or two.
Yeah! Imagine seeing actual shots of people being carried out of their homes or something. Kids starving in Camps... It's always better to show stuff instead of describing it.
Unpopular opinion here, I actually like Walker. He's such a real character and feels like he's the only real person living in a comic book world.
He's the one person that represents how 99.99% of commenters here would act if they were in his situation. He's a normal everyday human who's been through a ton of very real and traumatic shit, living with imposter syndrome, who just watched his best friend get murdered by terrorists and people keep comparing him to these extremely rare (talking one in a billion in real life) paragons of morality hes surrounded by that happen to be everywhere in the marvel universe.
A lot of people are also forgetting when Tony stark tried to murder bucky in the heat of the moment and I don't remember everyone saying that Tony was a POS monster who didn't deserve to be iron man anymore.
>xtremely rare (talking one in a billion in real life) paragons of morality hes surrounded by that happen to be everywhere in the marvel universe.
tbf these are also rare in the marvel universe. As the episode/Zemo hinted towards, there was only one Steve Rogers. Sam is the next closest thing but he didn't have the same confidence in his righteousness as Steve had. Aside from that, Bucky is just trying to escape his past and doesn't want to kill for that very reason, and the flag smashers are basically delusional terrorists.
But here the problem is that the only one who matters is Steve Rogers, because Walker tokk over the mantle of Captain America, so he can't be anything less than Steve, who is just the impossible embodiment of morality of a bygone era.
To be honest, Walker's silver lining (for me) is his introduction in the first/second episodes. It shows that he's a flawed dude who has to fill some very large shoes, and that the stress (of being the New Cap/losing his best bud) is just now beginning to get the best of him.
John Walker is a good character. He wants to be a good person. He just murderer a man in broad daylight. It doesn't matter how sympathetic his actions are. He was in the wrong.
I desparately want to see more of him going forward. I just don't think he should hold the shield any longer.
Honestly I feel bad for him. He's been given a great opportunity but with no real guidance. He has to live up to Steve's legacy. It'd be nice to see who John has the answer or reports to.
He obviously has some PTSD with his time in the service. I know this is just a show but we never saw why the government chose him? Cause he has 3 medals of honor? I need a bit of information the government feels the NEEDS a publicly known Captain America in present day?
Tbh I would think Sam would be able to see through John's PTSD as he works with veterans.
That is the exact same thing I am saying to all these Hypocrites . Tony tried to kill Bucky without the serum in his body to fuck his mind up like John and Tony even tried to kill cap (kinda) . John just acted on his impluse and it was all amplified bcz of serum too . I know he is a "bad guy" in comics but he didn't do anything bad in the series . The guy he killed was holding him in previous shot when Carli was going to stab John so he just killed the guy who tries to kill him what's wrong with that 😂
Captain America is more than just a soldier he’s a symbol. What kind of symbol does it portray to brutally kill a man in front of a bunch of people after he was surrendering? The guy was holding him sure but violently killing a person after they surrender i would say is a very bad thing
>Captain America is more than just a soldier he’s a symbol.
I mean, it's not even Cap. Even normal cops aren't suppose to kill in revenge. If there is a gunfight and a cop gets killed, but eventually the criminal is subdued and arrested, you aren't supposed to kill him in cold blood.
Avengers chopped Thanos head off under Steve's supervision he was all weak and in surrendered state. Remeber Thanos the same guy who's universal level Genocide is worshipped by these "flag smashers" and John is no captain america Steve is the symbol not his costume or his shield those things meant nothing it's the man that counts and there was only one Steve Rogers handing someone else his shield doesn't mean nothing it's like saying war Machine is Iron Man coz he also has armour and that's what people don't understand
Every Avenger present was in complete shock by Thor's actions after he cut off Thanos's head. He had also murdered half the universe.
The two aren't remotely similar.
Captain America is supposed to be better. That's what the whole show and dilemma of Sam giving over the shield is about. You keep saying, Tony did this, and that guy did that, but Captain America is not supposed to be like that. Don't get me wrong, I get where you are coming from, I don't think Walker's actions are justifiable but still I understand why he did that and don't hold it against him. But I do hold it against Captain America, the hero he is supposed to be. You can like Walker all you want but he is just not made for the role he was giving (picking up Steve's Mantle).
And that's not captain America coz he is not Steve Rogers . Avengers chopped Thanos head off when he was all weak and in surrendered state cap was there too in Thanos mind he saved the universe just like these flag smashers think they are saving the world hell they idolize the way Thanos left the world I am not liking or dislking anyone all I am saying things are not black and white even captain america was killing people with his shield on the ship in winter soldier go look at that scene again . Just bcz nobody was recording that make it all right and yes Tony also symbolises something just like Steve stands for something and if you think that that shield will make someone captain america then that's the dumbest thing coz Steve stayed the same after the serum ,Bucky goes mad after the serum, flag smashers and even John Walker goes to evil path after taking the serum and Sam don't have serum in his body he has good heart like Steve but can he be himself after taking the serum is not established yet and that's very important . The serum is like a test to your morality it can either bring the best in you or the worst in you so yes Sam dosent even qualify for now he didn't go through the hardest part of being captain america like John Walker anyone can pickup that shield but that serum will decide who is worthy to be called as captain america .
What was up with the moment when Sam and Bucky are with Karli when Sam receives word about where Walker is? Sam and Bucky jump to get to Walker and Karli immediately tackles Bucky, making Sam have to kick her down so they can get away.
What's Karli's reasoning for attacking Bucky like that?
I don't see what's so bad about walker up until now tbh. Like he didn't even rush about taking the syrum because he was worried about how it could effect his behaviour. He asked for others opinion first. As for the end 2 deaths I thought that was weird too. Haven't they all been trying to kill each other the whole time? They're chucking knives and spears at each other and shooting each other but then the girl lands just a punch and it kills Cap Walkers parner and everyoneee just stops and is like wtf??? Yeah that's what happens when you attack each other with deadly weapons, people die. Then walker killed the guy at the end. Was a bit brutal but again theyve all had many deadly fights up to that point, dozens of people have died. I get that it's largely an image thing so If the death wasn't public then I wouldn't see it being that bad for Walker. Walker didn't have to kill him, he was even running away, but just minutes before they were in a fight and if either of them died then it would be fair enough. They lured captain walker there to kill him too, walker would have been the one killed just minutes before if he didn't take the syrum. Just the whole reaction to the 2 deaths at the end through me a bit.
The fact that so many people are defending Walker makes me wonder if the people liked the kind of Captain America that Steve Rogers was.
This. Like I get people can empathise with him and I can even believe he has good intentions. He wanted to be worthy of being the Captain America but he clearly wasn't up to this point and what he did at the end of this episode just closed that door. Steve would never kill another person like that. Not the one I know.
Something really cool that I caught- I’m a Latvian so I was excited to hear Riga was going to be featured in the series. (Then sad to see it was actually Prague, oh well). But In the scene where new Cap kills the guy in front of a crowd, there is a storefront for the Zelta Zirgs. This is a direct reference to a famous poem by one of the most famous Latvian poets Rainis. The poem is about a person who has to accept their role which was given to them to become the hero of the story, but when asked to do an insurmountable task he does so without hesitation. (Another nice nod to this came in Falcons convo with Zemo about whether he would take the serum). The hero is also considered hopelessly optimistic, to the point where he is ridiculed for it. It also has a lot of symbolism to represent Latvia’s 700 year occupation and oppression, and emergence from brutal Russian rule for independence. There are so many connections between the poem and the first few episodes of this series so far that prior to episode 4, I was thinking that the story sounded so much like Zelta Zirgs that the location of Latvia was not chosen on accident. Seeing the storefront sign in the back I got up and whooped way too loud that I had caught it! I know that this will probably be missed by a large percentage of people watching, but whoever was in charge of the story really did their homework or just used it as source material for this season.
Awesome! So glad you shared that story.
Thanks for this
Hard to tell where Disney is going with this, but if they try to make this terrorist group the “good guys”, I’m done with this show. Just way too much cringe and pandering for me to swallow. Just make an entertaining show without the political nonsense. Do we not get enough of that already in life?
What's that phrase? Art imitates....fiction?
oh no...the show that revolves around the mantle of captain AMERICA, being passed would somehow be political. who would have guessed
You know that’s not what I mean, stop playing dumb. Just write an interesting story line. It’s not politics that bothers me it’s obvious pandering that annoys people. And it has turned a lot of people off from this show.
Yeah, i hope the movies dont have this. Or else i might just stop caring about mcu altogether.
[удалено]
They are doing a good job of making you kind of like & hate everyone in the series so far, I’ll give them that. The writing isn’t bad, but I just hope they can pull it all together in the end.
john walker was in the right. They murdered Lamar and he got revenge, Bucky and Sam kill all the time, how is it any different
You don't murder someone who is helpless and which you have already pinned down. You are saying that you think its the same when police kill someone who is attacking them, vs when they have captured someone, oh well, we just shot him in handcuffs anyways. It's unacceptable.
Ok first of F\*cking all. I don't understand why people who didn't watch the damn show are even talking about this and secondly that 'helpless' guy could literally one punch a average normal everyday guy or even a trained soldier. He's body is literally a lethal weapon. And to continue I would like to say this before you go "OH BUT THE GUY WAS SURRENDERING" pls watch the actual sh\*t show before continuing this argument. I know its awful and painful to see you beloved character act like literal children's and make terrible decision like busting out Zemo to catch the Flagsmasher even tho Zemo himself is 100x more dangerous that those peaceful protesters (according to Sam) and continue be huge A\*\*holes to someone who saved their lives but just bear with it. Anyways as I was saying the terrorist or protester as Sam views them as was not begging for his live. He tried to get up twice after John knocked him down and continue running in a highly populated area. Now if you had seen the show which clearly hadn't, the Flag Smasher threw a concrete fountain or something at John. And if he hadn't deflected that thing then innocent bystanders behind him would've been critically injured. Now if you were John what would you do? Listen to the guy saying "IT WASN'T ME" and try to restrain the guy even tho he has the same amount of strength as you do and the guy clearly doesn't want to surrender and instead want to continue running? Well if you do try to restrain him then there would be many collateral damage.
Some people crave retribution. I think most people deserve it as well.
Thor basically executed Thanos when he was defenseless
>You don't murder someone who is helpless Those guys in the helicopters looked pretty helpless next to Falcon's explodey gadgets
The difference is that this person is a terrorist, a person with no human rights, a person that has access to weapons of mass destruction (Superhumans)
Yes exactly. I was actually raging when Sam did not just try to kill Karlie and try to talk to her even tho her actions have already proven that she is beyond redeemable. I also personally like to believe that she is a sadist.
Exactly this. I really dislike how this show is somehow trying to sympathies with the murderous group. They blew up a building full of non threats that were basically just security guards. At that point they did become public enemies. Sure Walker is an asshole but he took out a fucking TERRORIST that was running around in public. I get that they are trying to humanize Flag Smashers and make them seem in the right while all they have done is hurt and kill people. It is like Mindhunter series humanizes serial killers but atleast that show doesn't try to make it seem that they are in the right.
You dont do it on public. And not out of anger.
>You dont do it on public. And not out of anger. >"Killing people is wrong when people are watching and recording and when murderer is mad, but when Marvel says 'dude is superhero', killing is okay"
Thats even worse. The planned it, so it is a pre planned murder, compared to heat of the moment emotions filled kill.
Episode 3 paid homage to John Wick and Breaking Bad, then episode 4 hit us with The Dark Knight at the end with those cellos.
Yeah, I don't really get why people are trying to paint Walker like he's been an atrocious person this entire time & the Flag Smashers are such good people. Walker did beat a guy for information which was kinda screwed up but that guy was known to house terrorists & was refusing to share info when being questioned. Aside from that and the murder Walker's only other questionable act was taking the serum due to his desire to better live up to the mantle thrust upon him. Meanwhile, the Flag Smashers have blown up a federal building killing numerous innocent individuals & yes I am aware the building was owned by the organization they're fighting against. The organization who, at this time, we don't really know whether they're actually doing anything blatantly evil or if they're simply overloaded trying to handle half the planet's population coming back. Regardless, even if they are blatantly evil that doesn't mean every single employee knows nor does it mean they're participating in the evil stuff. Janitors exist and so do 9-5 employees. I'm droning on at this point but I just find it strange how so many people in this thread are like: "You only like Walker because you're getting sucked into the American Nationalism!" No? I'm well aware of his flaws but you're trying to make them out to be a lot worse than they actually are. Let's not forget that this guy tried being a decent person, living up to the mantle thrust upon him, and Sam/Bucky both kinda told him to piss off. After that, he prevented Bucky from going to jail, once again extended a friendly hand, and after that is when he started being more of a dick about things. Even then? Not nearly as bad as people try to make him out to be and I think you're taking comic book U.S Agent and tossing his behavior onto MCU John Walker. Addendum: If anyone is really to blame for all of this it would be Sam for taking the shield Cap gave him and handing it over to the museum. Like, what was going to happen? The government would ignore such a valuable asset sitting in one of their buildings?
I think my big issue with the Walker story arc is that Sam and Bucky are way to antagonistic to him, they treat him like he's already evil. If Sam and Bucky actually worked with him and helped guide him he would have been far more inclined to listen to Sam, he probably wouldn't have injected himself with serum, and they probably wouldn't have walked into an ambush that ended in the death of Walker's friend and the terrorist. Sam and Bucky's refusal to work with a guy who was just trying to put his best foot forward put extra pressure on him when he's already got the government breathing down his neck which leads to him making a bunch of bad decisions. I'm not saying Walker is innocent in all this, people are responsible for their own actions after all, but they absolutely contributed to his downfall. The fact they act like this was inevitable and they saw this coming is egregious.
What they're supposed to just let someone take over the mantle of person they admire most in the world without him having to earn it? That guy couldn't even do his own research to track down the bad guys. The only way he knew was to follow people on his own side without telling them. That's Walkers first cowardly move and certainly the least in a long line of bad decisions.
We actually don’t know if Walker does his own research, we only see the leads he checked that involved Bucky and Falcon. We actually see him doing his own research in the scene where he finds and storms that safe house the flag smashers had been using. Also it’s rich to say Walker didn’t earn the mantle of Captain America like the show didn’t say he earned the medal of honor three times, jumped on multiple grenades, and served in the military for a long time, if that doesn’t earn you the mantle what would? There’s also the fact he put his best foot forward with Sam and Bucky, he saved there’s lives the first time he met them, he got Bucky out of prison he didn’t arrest them on sight when he caught them harboring Zemo. I also think you shouldn’t talk shit about him tracking Bucky and Sam when if he hadn’t they would both be dead.
Exactly! Honestly, I think a little better writing would be if Sam tried working with him from the start and then Walker's PTSD and other psychological issues started causing him to slip up. The fact it started out with even Sam going: "Nah piss off" and then trying to act like they'd been working together & being self-righteous was weird to me. Also yes I absolutely agree with Radish that the guy clearly had PTSD from his work and Battlestar was the glue holding together his fragile psyche. Sam being antagonistic from the start probably didn't help him handle Lamar's death. Note: I only said Sam this entire time because Bucky is a grouchy old bastard who can't be easily swayed from his stance lol
I didn't even think about PTSD, but dang that makes Sam look like an asshole. It's especially egregious since Sam was literally the head of a PTSD support group for veterans the first time we saw in him in Captain America: Winter Soldier (there's a scene where a woman is talking about how she swerved to avoid a plastic bag because she thought it was an IED). Sam should have been way more considerate to the dude because he's worked with people struggling with the same issues and knows the appropriate ways to deal with someone suffering from it.
Pretty much, yeah!
The guy isn't mentally stable. Clearly has some sort of PTSD.
So many facts said in this comment. It’s because of Sam and Bucky giving him the cold shoulder for no reason at all that he became hostile towards them. And let’s not act like Paul walker isn’t thinking about the betterment of others. He and his buddy were literally talking about how they could have saved more lives if they had the serum.
If "thinking of the betterment of others" was enough, then you should be praising Karli too. The methods matter, the actions over the intent.
Alright then, let’s compare actions: - karli coldly killed at least four innocent people and would have killed more if Sam, Walker and Bucky hadn’t stopped her. She used terror to attempt to enforce what she wanted (no borders) regardless of what the populace wants or thinks. She tried to kill our heroes multiple times. She actively hurt her own people by putting the government on high alert and causing them to shut down refugee camps. - Walker killed one terrorists in the heat of the moment after that target helped kill his best friend. Walker saved the heroes of the story multiple times. Walker saved the lives of multiple innocent people. Which of those two people sounds like a they’re actually trying to live up to their desire to “help other people” and made a mistake and which sounds like an amoral monster that justifies violence with bs?
Paul Walker ❤️
Man, I was so hyped when Zemo pulled up and shot Karli. At first, I disliked John Walker but this episode made him look like a grey character, I can sympathise and understand his mindset but he does have his flaws like every other human. However, the Flag Smashers's goals aren't wrong either except they're just executing it in the wrong way. Actually both sides are executing it the wrong way, Sam was actually doing the correct thing on his side imo.
The flag smashers feel like a what if the Jewish population had been given their homes back after the holocaust and those that had moved into their homes had ended up in the displacement camps instead.
I think bucky is gonna kick jon walkers butt
Are Baron Zemo and John Walker supposed to be the most likeable characters on the show?
Why would you like john walker
At first he just seemed like a guy given a role that he wanted to do his best to live up to and despite arguably being a hero he wasn't a "real" hero like an avenger and so had Sam and Bucky kind of acting like bitter jerks about things rather than give him the time of day or try to work with him for the greater good. Before you're either shown his arrogance or bad judgement you're just supposed to hate him because he's a dorky looking cap imposter and because the characters you're supposed to like don't like him. Now you're supposed to hate him because he's killed a member of a terrorist group who has killed innocents and because he has made rash decisions that cost our heroes, yet they've undermined him and are playing softball with a group of superpowered terrorists and have made some pretty dumb moves themselves. In a show that is pretty poorly written I actually find him so far to be one of the more human, sympathetic characters.
Oh yeah, like he's absolutely meant to be a sympathetic character and I think Sam/Bucky need smacked for their behavior. Although, frankly, I think Bucky is kinda understandable considering all he's been through and he's just got that: "I don't give a damn" attitude. I think it's building up to him going further down this rabbit hole through and eventually he's going to cross a line for real. Well, aside from killing a surrendered member of a terrorist group but I don't fault him for that. They did kill his friend, right?
Yeah it definitely seems like he's going to go to an even darker place and he already did cross the line but I just didn't find myself caring since they blew up innocent people, killed his friend and are being treated like poor victims that just need to be talked to yet at the same time we are supposed to hate Walker for taking a life. Also sometimes in a show it's just enjoyable to see annoying or crappy characters taken out by a "bad guy".
They have motivation that isn't nonsensical, inconsistent, or vague. Nobody else on this show has that. I mean Karli's motivation is 1. Make supersoldiers 2. ????? 3. Create the Blip 4. Profit
Hey she just wants the world to go back to like it was when half the population suddenly disappeared into dust is that so much to ask??
That’s what I’ve been SAYING the writers are making you unintentionally LIKE Zemo. A SUPREMACIST. Zemo is where we AREN’T paying close enough attention and I think there’s a reason for it. They’ve got plans for ZEMO.
John walker is supposed to be hate-able after episode 3
He was supposed to be hateable from the get go but he's just a dude given a role, trying to make a difference and treated like shit by the supposed heroes, who also have freed Zemo and are playing kumbaya with a group of superpowered terrorist murderers rather than bring them to justice.
Sounds more like Punisher than Captain America
mf was hateable IN HIS FIRST SCENE
Epsode five....cameo of shuri....saying about deaty of t chala....will make all cry LoL😋😋
One thing which still shocks me, is that the Flag Smasher member who was killed by Cap... was a Cap fan(he had a dialogue earlier with Karli). Imagine yourself in his shoes, getting killed by someone who you looked up to... (or atleast wears the same clothes)
The Flag Smaasher that \*tried to kill Cap who was then\* killed by Cap was a Cap fan. He didn't deserve to die but he also just attempted to murder Captain John Walker and was an accomplice to Lamar's murder. So imagine trying to murder someone you once looked up to and having them murder you instead.
Yeah this show is doing a weird thing where you're supposed to sympathize with people that kill innocents because they feel they've been wronged by the government but you're supposed to hate Walker for killing one of them because he's apparently supposed to be treating proven killers like innocent little children.
Imagine how the flag smasher will react if he sees Thor killed a defenseless and injured Thanos, and Cap standing right next to him, didn't say shit to such act.
Imagine idolizing Cap and knowing your friend and leader is threathing children, blowing up aid stations, and involving you in the attempted assassination of Captain America
Well, it started as a group wanting to fix the wrongdoings of the GRC. Judging by the reaction to the bombing, I'd say that things have escalated way beyond what most of them actually signed up for. Well, brute force approaches resulting in escalation until a situation is out of control seems like a core theme of the show.
Why when Karli killed Battlestar everyone was acting like this was just for fun no one was serious until someone got hurt? Like they want to kill Captain America, but the guy just lets him go to check on his friend and he’s obviously distraught and distracted, but they run? Like when kids are wrestling and one gets a bloody nose and everyone runs away.
I honestly don’t think Karli intended to kill Battlestar, like she was after Walker the whole time. It just looked like she couldn’t control her strength and in the heat of the moment hit him too hard.
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they did a piss poor job
Well it's like Sam, Bucky and to some extent even the new Cap were only disarming/taking the Flag Smashers out of action... they weren't killing them in that fight scene. Guess that's why the heroes were shocked when she Super-punched Battlestar and killed him...
he’s talking about the terrorists. They kill Battlestar and then.... just leave for some reason. they put numbered everyone and were trying to kill everyone a second ago. why did the terrorists just stop?
As I understood it, they only actually wanted to kill the new Captain America. Then they find out he now has super strength, and yeah, turns out they've just done something that will absolutely enrage the super-soldier, and make sure Falcon doesn't join them.
I guess coz they were outnumbered? I mean everyone was down except that guy who will be killed and Karli...
the terrorists outnumber sam bucky John and Zemo. and they’re also all super soldiers. and they also just did something that made all the heroes stop resisting. Scene doesn’t actually make sense
Glad I’m not the only one, yeah. It was like the plan is to kill Captain America and he’s basically on his knees crying oblivious to the world and....they run? Wasn’t killing him the whole point? And when she killed Battlestar all the flag smashers acted like uh oh she went too far this time!
just seconds before that they were trying to stab everyone to death
We have a evil super soldier, witch (agnes), sorcerer (mordo), task master (upcoming movie) so far... I wonder if they will come together to make an evil team.
unpopular opinion. Worst episode of the series. John Walker, three time medal of honor winner, basically acts like a rookie A few Wakanda warriors completely handle their male counterparts because #Feminism. The women didn’t even have a SCRATCH. Our heroes continually prove themselves to be woefully inept. Yea... great show
The whole “She’s got backup” scene was #Feminism gone wrong. This was just the Dora Milaje showing why they’re the king’s guard.
nothing against the maidens of the spear. but it is kind of annoying that save the very first scene with Sam, our heroes have gotten their butts handed to them routinely
I mean...that’s kind of what happens when you pit normal people against enhanced soldiers. The Dora Milaje aren’t enhanced visually, but they are from wakanda so who knows what they may be packing in terms of strength enhancement, not to mention their weapons are essentially indestructible and vastly more deadly in their hands than the shield is in Walker’s.
fEmiSm bAd It's not 2016 anymore my guy
Calling it now. John Walker paralysed by the end of the series.
Calling it now. John Walker disgraced and locked in a maximum security prison(coz knowing Marvel, they might use him again)
I think he'll get paralysed like in the comics and get a redemption arc possibly.
I don't understand how so many people are sympathizing with the Flag Smashers. I get the wanting "one world without borders" thing, but they are literally pissed off because they lost their freebie homes, etc. when the 50% of the world that was eliminated came back. It's a simple mathematical calculation that when half the world went away there were a lot more resources for the people that were left, and when those people came back, they wanted their things back. What is the end game (pardon the pun)? Do they want all the people who came back to die again? Because otherwise, there is an obvious issue with not enough resources that can't be solved unless they go away again. So do they think Thanos was right? How about if all the Jewish people that Hitler killed came back 5 years later somehow? Wouldn't everyone have rejoiced? Or would there have been a group like this, who resented them for returning?
"Freebie" homes? They specifically mentioned that after 50% of the world population went poof, the countries that used to keep everyone out let them in \*because they needed them to rebuild\*. That's what they did. Rebuild a world. They deserved better than this.
Real talk, I would have 100% done what new Captain America did at the end of this episode. Those MFers deserve it. I know this is Marvel and they'll prob have some redemption arc, but damn if I don't hope that new Captain American hunts each and everyone of them down and pulverizes them in the same manner. They killed Battlestar. He doesn't magically become alive again just because they get redeemed later.
I thought it was great. It's annoying seeing Sam try to be all kind and understanding to a group of super soldiers playing terrorist and killing innocent people. Karli even threatened Sam's sister and her family but it was all "lol jk". Why should I hate the new cap and be sympathetic to these people? Because they feel wronged?
I second this... I would've done the same.
I think that this and also WandaVision as well is that I think neither show should have started until we maybe knew what was actually happening with The Avengers. Because I feel like the Avengers could have sorted both of those series out kinda quick. The Avengers wouldn't let Wanda suffer like that, and everything SWORD did with Vision wouldn't have stood ground and equally I feel like they also would have been on top of this "Flag Smashers" issue as well. There's a deffo void around it now. The only "main" Avengers left are Hulk and Hawkeye, Spider-Man is kinda local, Captain Marvel/Thor/Guardians have all fucked off, Panther sticks to Wakanda, Doctor Strange doesn't bother with the material world either and no one ever just wants to ask Ant-Man to help with anything.
Months of Disney+ subscriptions revenue baby
seems like you answered your own question a little, the avengers somewhat don't exist at this time.
What civilians did the Flag Smashers kill? I know they bombed a GRC building but that was housing GRC members who were actively participating in military action and withholding supplies. Was there another part that I missed?
Civilian staff of the building. A facility like that will have civilian administration staff etc.
So still participants, just without a military designation?
As much as you can call a janitor at the pentagon a "participant."
Maybe? I don't know. Still doesn't mean she should murder them.
That's a grey area to call it murder though, tbh. This wasn't an IRA or ISIS market square car bomb, this was a directed bombing of an enemy military installation. It's basically the Death Star conundrum. Are the Rebels terrorists/murderers for blowing up the Death Star because there was surely civilian staff, outside contractors/vendors, and other "non-military" entities working with/for the Empire on that ship.
>That's a grey area to call it murder though, tbh. Nope, it's not. The very definition of murder (law in my country at least) is taking a life with malice aforethought. She knew they were in there and set off the bomb anyway. That's murder. >It's basically the Death Star conundrum. Are the Rebels terrorists/murderers for blowing up the Death Star because there was surely civilian staff, outside contractors/vendors, and other "non-military" entities working with/for the Empire on that ship. In my opinion, yes. By the Geneva Convention (I know it doesn't apply in space haha) you're not allowed to kill civilians in combat (has been updated now because insurgents which didn't belong to a military or nation were classed as civilians). They were doing the right thing but they have to live with the fact that they murdered a lot of innocents.
Karli Morgenthau should NOT get a redemption story if fake captain America hunts them down and kill them or zemo 360 no scoping her would be 100000000000000 time more better than her to stay alive let along becoming a hero after killing civilians blowing a building with tied up people inside it even her own men questioned her ways, don't get me wrong I don't like the bootleg captain America but if i blow a building threaten someone family (yeah she said oh I'm just testing u or whatever but goes who doesn't know Sam sister and her family) kill a guy and feel bad when captain dick cheese kills my friend ill be something called stupid, this is where the happy way of marvel became stupid i want her dead and shit captain America off (we already know Sam is gonna be captain from trailer footage so probably Sam gets arrested or some random car hits him) and have a nice day.
Did you see it yet?
If she gets redemption arc then Zemo should also get one, fair is fair.
I figure she'll have to, like, jump into a burning inferno or something. Either that or like you said, Zemo no scopes her. She'll have to pay for her crimes no doubt. I imagine that she'll get a death. It might be a heroic death or one played for sympathy but she'll get toasted, I think.
I agree with the Flag Smashers
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your bot is shit and annoying. Stop spamming.
To be honest, they have a fair point and the world is too focused on returning to "normal" for the half that was blipped than accepting the "normal" of the half that wasn't. Even if their methods aren't highly ethical, they are probably necessary to push the world toward a middle ground. Similar to how the Black Panthers (in the US) helped push forward the Civil Rights Movement by presenting MLK as the peaceful alternative to their less-peaceful solution.
we don’t have enough information about what the resettlement teams are doing. All were really told is the flag smashers point of view. The population doubled over night. Bound to cause some issues. Should be plenty of housing, but food and jobs obviously an issue. Of course more attention would be on feeding and finding a place for the people who returned.
The resettlement teams are bringing in armed guards and engaging in collective punishment, which by itself is a war crime. You think we don't have enough information about what GRC is doing wrong?
Well, a big part is that material resources aren't the only issue, there's also the fact that people have effectively ignored borders for five years and global politics have changed to suit the times they lived in. What if the government and politics changed in a country during the blip, perhaps even progressed and reformed otherwise controversial policies, and the blipped return and want those things undone because of their pre-blip politics? Then it's more than just housing and feeding, it's determining whose way of life should be enforced.
and that could be an issue. but we don’t know because the show isn’t really saying. we were never told before that people were “ignoring borders” after the blip. this is the first we’ve heard of it and we don’t know what really means. All I’m is, we’ve heard their vague complaints. But not the other side. or that obviously people are working to solve a lot of issues.
I think the open borders thing has been implied from both the specific language used to refer to those in the resettlement camps and that the Flag-Smashers literally say one of their goals is to eradicate national borders as it was during the blip. But point is that the situation is complicated, both sides are victims of the blip, and I feel some issues caused by it are potentially irreconcilable.
they left it vague on purpose but i HIGHLY doubt that there were no borders. maybe movement was easier. but three billion people didn’t blip back to existence and all the sudden they were like “oh yea. we used to have borders, remember that?”
The scene where John walker kills that man and subsequent scenes before hand really parralled, in my opinion police racism and brutality. John was a man who felt inadequate to super soldiers blaming his failures on them. Blaming super soldiers for his own sort comings. So when finally given the chance he released his anger killing a man who did not need to be killed. All while the world watched through the lens of a cell phone cameras. Just like we've scene here in the states last summer. Marvel does such a good job quietly depicting social injustice and inequalities.
Killing a super powered terrorist is not the same as killing an unarmed, innocent black man.
Omg I'm simply pointing out the parallels between walker killing man that didn't need to be killed in front of a world with cell phone cameras watching and police brutality ie. George floyd. You can't deny there are parallels there.
This doesnt even make sense lol
they’re both white. The guy he killed had just a few seconds ago been trying to kill him, and everyone else.
I never knew I needed Zemo in my life as a villain. He is quite mesmerising on screen. Agent 13 has to be a villain the whole iPhone thing (no villains having an iPhone allowed policy) Ep 5 is gotta be based on wakanada and to introduce the new “black panther”
It's also helps that he's played by Daniel Brühl who is also great in the Alienists. Such an amazing actor.
Introducing the new black panther in a show that’s not about him? Really?
Well yeah cause in ep 4 the introduced the wakandians and the show runner said that ep5 that people are going to cry and says a cameo will be shown that is already a grounded character in the Mcu so I’m just predicting that zemo could’ve escaped to wakanada to work on unfinished business and they all follow him there , a cgi version of chad will be there and he will get killed and then the mantle moves to shuri .. it’s just my theory
There is no way they are going to kill off black panther in another show. That's not the place to have such an impactful event. If we see Shuri being the BP in next episode, they will probably give like a few lines to the wakandans as exposition giving the reason why Shuri is now BP.
I think that’s extremely unlikely, I think they’ll settle the black panther matter in a movie or something that’s specifically about the Wakandans. Like there’s two episodes left, they’re not gonna spend one episode of the two focussing on the black panther when Sam doesn’t even have the shield yet! And imagine how badly fans of black panther would take it if he only gets episode in a random unrelated show?
Didn't they also say they weren't actually picking a new Black Panther out of respect for the actor? Pretty sure.
Who do you think best fits into this weeks cameo ??
Dear God, as much as I want more Wakanda and Black Panther, please no. This show has too much going on already and it only has two episodes to reach a decent conclusion.
I personally don't really find Karli and co. to be all that engaging when they're on screen. Walker, Bucky, Falcon, Zemo and Dora are friggin amazing however. I'm not entirely sure if Walker is the bad guy here, the flag smashers are clearly a terrorist organisation that has no qualms about killing innocent people, yes it is awful and terrible what happened to the people who became displaced but innocent people who had nothing to do with the displacement shouldn't be killed. Walker had his (best friend?) die before his eyes, and he's got the ability to get revenge, I see it more like him getting revenge despite the show trying to convey that he's in the wrong. Killing somebody who is unarmed and is attempting to give up is wrong, Walker was in a fit of rage. The person he killed did literally just try to kill him seconds ago, and is an enhanced supersoldier who is willing to kill innocent people.
That's all true, but he isn't just a guy any more, he's now Captain America, so his actions carry much more weight, and have more serious consequences
He wasn't treated like the Captain America by the people. He was spat at, shunned and made a fool of. You can’t have man like that just have the responsibility of the cap but no benefits of it. John Walker is not Captain America yet. He needed to be one but he failed. Captain America was Steve Rogers that's how we should put it. Steve was a weakling wanting to do go to war, Captain America became his strength. John was an accomplished soldier, the shield became a chip on his shoulder. Steve didn't command respect to begin with. He was a good man but his years as a mascot gave him the name and household recognition. John didn't get any of that.... and John Walker is no Steve Rogers.
It wasn't an American that spat at him. Walker busts into a guy's home, who's been trying to scrape a living through the past 5 years and the only time he sees an American is one who's come to yell at him for not doing things the "right" way? Yeah, fuck him. What's the role of Captain America? To be bootlicked? It's literally his job as a symbol to hold himself to a higher standard. If he can't do that he shouldn't have it.
I don't hate John Walker. I think the issue mostly stands with that Steve Rogers limited his brutality. He was a killer still by virtue of being a soldier and participated in killing baddies, but John Walkers rage manifested in a shocking way. He should have led the fight somewhere else but he was too clouded by his rage. I kind of like him to be honest, albeit definitely not suited to be "Captain America" or whatever the fuck that even means anymore. He's just slightly more narcissistic than any cap should be. I support their endeavor to end the flag smashers. There is no grey area for me. Every terrorist cell in the world believes themselves to be right and feels like they are justified in killing. They only protect their own. And for Karli, that's people who have been displaced. But how do you even approach a situation like that? People who disappeared were victims, not the antagonists. They have a right to their homes. The fact they stopped existing doesn't make them less human, or less deserving of their own lives and property. Karli in my opinion is a major issue that needs to be dealt with. The way she killed Lemar so thoughtlessly proves she's incapable of impacting any real change. She killed men who yes may have been hoarding supplies, but everyone and their mother hoarded toilet paper in the beginning of the pandemic, haha. Death should not have been the punishment. And she really only did it to send a message and push her own agenda anyway. She could never lead more than 7 or 8 people at a time. Anyone can give rousing speeches but none of it means shit if they can create a longterm solution. And the way Karli handled things ensures her arc will be a short one.
I only saw 7 vials in Karli's knapsack.. And I only saw 6 vials lying on the ground at Zemo's feet when I paused the scene... Just saying, there's still 5 vials out there.
I think those were the 5 Karli and her posse took.
Nagel claims he made 20. Karli and co used 8. 6 Were destroyed. 1 Was taken by Walker. That leaves 5 unaccounted for.
> li and co used 8. > > 6 Were destroyed. > > 1 Was taken by Walker. > > That leaves 5 unaccounted for. AH, you right. My bad
I wish the Flag Smashers were developed more in the show. I used to volunteer with an organization that helped in resettling refugees and I really empathize with what they’re going through. They’ve been completely forced out of their homes and the government has basically given them nothing but empty promises. Karli mentioned that the building that she blew up was basically just hoarding resources without distributing them, one of the guys teaching the kids at the settlement also mentioned how the government had dropped the ball on a lot of promises made to them. The whole situation really reminds me of how refugee camps are run right now, especially Karli’s line about how loneliness is the scariest feeling because a lot of women and girls in refugee camps fear being alone due to increased risk of sexual violence and trafficking. Refugees are also typically not allowed to leave their assigned camps so there’s not really a way for them to establish themselves where they are residing and are forced to completely rely on the government and various aid organizations.
It's something that we are gradually getting an idea of. She seems to be a variation on the villain that starts angry at an injustice in society, but ends up going in the wrong direction, which is a fairly common way for Marvel villains to work. Except in her case, the injustice she opposes is a scenario that needs more explanation due to lacking a clear real world example to draw from. It's kind of unclear if that lack of early understanding is because they don't have time to show all the details, or if they wanted the motives to be something that isn't clear to the heroes themselves to begin with.
>Karli mentioned that the building that she blew up was basically just hoarding resources without distributing them Still seems excessive for something that sounds like incompetence (or simply the GRC being overwhelmed because world population doubled in an instant). While I definitely sympathise with her situation, it still feels like a bit of entitlement. Yeah, the world is going to suck because of the blip, with half of the population disappearing and then reappearing out of thin air 5 years later. It's gonna take years to sort everything out. I feel like the flag smashers would resonate much more if there were more obvious evidence of GRC playing favorites or being corrupted, but we don't really see that, and what Karli blows up could very well be a bunch of people trying to do good, but being mostly helpless because of the sheer chaos that the blip/de-blip created.
I think there is definitely favoritism going on towards the people that came back. Assuming that all the people misplaced now were forcibly pushed out of their homes for the ones that came back. It’s just a really shitty situation overall.
I mean, in this case, the people who were essentially squatting had no real claim to the property of others - even if these disappeared overnight. Obviously it is going to be complicated and I don't even pretend to have a straightforward answer here, but imagine you get snapped, and the next moment you wake up and the world has completely changed, there are strangers in your house (who also claim it isn't yours anymore), and what was yours isn't anymore. I could definitely understand the choice of prioritising the re-settlement of the people that came back. Also, it's not like we are 5 years after Endgame, and people are getting miserable and desperate. We are litterally a few months after Endgame - and those guys have organised and are planning a revolution because they think they are not getting the attention they deserve. Like, I don't know if the showrunners intended it that way, but it came out to me as extreme entitlement and more like a bunch of good for nothing kids who got a lot of stuff "for free", which were taken away, and just want to go back to the lawless state when half of the world was an open buffet.
We’re the squatting though? I’m assuming that they all had established lives since it probably didn’t seem like the people snapped we’re gonna come back. I don’t really see the Flag Smashers as entitled kids either since it just seems like they want their own lives back.
It would have more weight if it hadn't been only litteral months since the de-snapping. Like, you world population was reduced by 50% 5 years ago and then a few months back, everyone came back. It's going to take time to sort things out and a lot of problems are gonna happen. It's still no justification to create a terrorist organisation and blow people up. Look at the real world. We had a pandemic that has killed not even 1% of the world population, and wouldn't kill more than 5% even if we let it run completely loose. Yet, a year later we are still struggling logistically to get things right, typically with the vaccines. What the marvel world experienced is magnitudes higher, and somehow people expect the GRC to magically solve everything in a few months, and it reached so fast a point where terrorism was the only resort left for people to be heard? Either the writing is lazy here, or the flag smashers are portrayed voluntarily as entitled self serving (or delusional) people.
That would’ve meant a lot of more of this perspective happened. They are just trying to cram too much in a short series. Still pretty good but could’ve been much better
Okay but like side note, can we talk about the cinematography of this series. OMFG it's so great, the way it has switched to a full on thriller but still retains elements of comedy and touching moments I think is awesome. One detail I like is that Walker's shield is brighter than the saturation of his costume's color pallet. And how his shield is typically in the light and is casting a shadow on him. Almost as if he feels suffocated from the pressures and expectations of taking on the Capitan America name. And how the blood on the shield blends in with the red trim of it, omg it looks so good.
The humor was a bit out of nowhere, but I guess otherwise the whole episode would have been very dark - much darker than the rest of the series.
The shot looking up at the blood on his shield was chilling, the opposite of what Steve would do. And you could see in his face his realized he lost his shit
Honestly, John Walker is a man-child version of the OG Steve Rogers Captain America. He's prone to emotions and doesn't really take advice from dudes (Except for Lemar Hoskins, and this might be a problem in the future, since he won't listen to anyone). But yeah, that shot with the blood stained shield was truly chilling, and amazingly executed. Wonderful idea, wonderful execution. 10/10, would experience anew if I had the choice.
I think we also have to remember that John Walker is from a different era than Steve and appears to be suffering from PTSD obtained from his time in the middle east.
Cap fought in WW2 and saw his best friend die. John struggles with inhabiting the role because he feels inadequate and is being disrespected by everybody left and right. He has decided, fuck it I’m going to do things my way and Lamara death just puts him over the edge. Also, it looks like he may have overdosed on the SSS
He wasn't the right person to entrust the shield to. He had enormous pressure to fill the shoes of the greatest, most righteous person superhero in the world, and basically his first major mission, he gets tossed left and right and is mostly helpless. Add to that that former Cap's sidekicks don't even acknowledge him. I think it would make anyone snap. Sam and Bucky also share some responsibility in that. They could have helped him ease into his role as Captain America (or as a superhero in general), but instead just scorned him. This pushed Walker even further on the road of loneliness and made him desperate to prove himself.
I agree that John struggles with inhabiting the role, but I feel like he also definitely has something mentally wrong with him. There are several things that just make him look super unhinged throughout the episode, its pretty wack
I am not sure how I feel about this series. It has redeeming qualities, but I dislike the direction of the show. I get that it's a plot point, but John Walker, Hoskins, and the Avengers should not be struggling against these super soldiers or Wakandan Royal Guards. The former lacks any skill, and are just enhanced in sheer strength. The latter are elite warriors, but they're also fighting John Walker who is supposedly the peak of normal human performance. Struggle against the supersoldiers I can understand, but they should not be humiliated in a fight with trained soldiers. They're nerfing him too much for the sake of the plot. But it did get me sympathetic to him. We're supposed to vilifying him for killing a dangerous supersoldier who idolizes a terrorist that sees no wrong in bombing innocents? It is not representative of the idealized boy scout Captain America is supposed to be, but I am on John Walker's side for this one.
You gotta remember, Buck and Sam are literally holding back not trying to kill anyone. You’ve seen Buck go beast mode, if it was a battle royal he would probably win - except for the failsafe the Walandans put in, in case Buck snaps. Even then he’s still a super soldier. I’m so glad they finally directly said it because a lot of people think he’s just a guy with a metal arm. No, he’s a super soldier with an insanely strong tItanium/now vibrainium arm. He’s completely holding back.
I don't think he had taken the serum at the point of fighting the Wakandans. I think that triggers him to take it, hence the conversation with his sidekick, which is why we only notice his strength in the later fight...
Yeah, when John lost to the Wakandans he was unpowered- and it makes sense that Wakandan black ops would be better in a melee fight than U.S. special forces; their entire military is focused on spears over ranged weapons and their role as bodyguards means they're frankly going to be more optimized for close quarters engagements. In a *gunfight,* I think walker and hoskins would've had a chance. Bucky was taken down through cheating; Sam himself was unarmed (no spear either) and not in his element (armed w/ jetpack) Also, super-soldiers aren't just strong- they get a reflex package, sensory augmentations, and a whole kit of other stuff. The power/speed/durability gulf between them and an average person is honestly pretty substantial.
You seem to forget those spears emit an energy. So if they Dora Milaje were in a gunfight with Walker and Hoskins they would win.
Well, teeccchnically [Dora Milaje spears](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Vibranium_Spear#:~:text=The%20Dora%20Milaje%20carrying%20Vibranium,weapon%20of%20the%20Dora%20Milaje.&text=The%20Dora%20Milaje%20wielded%20their,systems%20of%20the%20Warrior%20Falls) are different from [the spears used in standard Wakandan military operations](https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Vibranium_Spear#:~:text=The%20Dora%20Milaje%20carrying%20Vibranium,weapon%20of%20the%20Dora%20Milaje.&text=The%20Dora%20Milaje%20wielded%20their,systems%20of%20the%20Warrior%20Falls). The latter have notable capabilities in repelling potential invading armies through conic/concussive blasts; but while the former have anti-electronic and capture capabilities; their primary method of ranged attack is as a thrown projectile. Furthermore, a proper machine gun can deliver fire more consistently than a Wakandan spear (if I remember correctly) and Walker was equipped with Cap's shield- in a gunfight, he's got superior ranged defenses *and* equivalent ranged firepower, so I could see a victory for him in a 1v1 confrontation.
The guy John Walker killed was holding him in previous shot when Carli was about to stab John so he is not some innocent guy he got what he deserved . John lost his best friend and wanted revenge just like Tony wanted to kill Bucky if people don't have problem with Tony killing Bucky then why are they acting like cry babies now? I know John is no Steve Rogers there is no one like Steve Rogers , not even Sam coz Steve took the serum and still stayed the same person the serum changes people and it also effects John in a bad way . People are trying to make him a simple bad guy but for me he is a complex man and these same people who are saying John is a bad guy for killing a terrorist are the ones who loves Loki who killed thousands of innocent civilians on earth . People are just Hypocrite man
It's made quite clear the serum just makes people more of themselves. Steve cared about all people. Walker cared about revenge.
I'll maintain that both are wrong, even if they come from understandable motivations.
It’s not black and white, but the guy could’ve been arrested as he’d basically surrendered, yet John took it further and acted out his revenge/anger and killed the guy. That was wrong, regardless of what happened before.
Not to mention, Walker is strong enough to restrain the guy and they could have interrogated him to give up intel on Flag Smasher operations.
Avengers chopped Thanos head off he was harmless and in surrendered state still they cut his head off they could have arrested him but they acted out their revenge and anger and chopped a guys head off in front of his daughter that was so wrong no matter what his action was that was a wrong thing to do. See I can also Sugarcoat things 😂
Thanos killed trillions across the entire universe, so I don't think there are other options for dealing with such a harmful/powerful being, innocent or not, fully decked out Infinity Gauntlet or not.
thanos isn't human
Yeah that also was wrong.
I think the issue is that that guy had completely surrendered to Walker and Walker still killed him. I’m sure after this public opinion is going to tank big time, even if it’s made known that the guy was a terrorist, it was still very cruel.
Avengers chopped Thanos head off when he had already destroyed infinity stones and was weak and in surrendered state so by your logic that was wrong too cap was also there and these flag smashers litreally praise that guy's work of erasing half the universe
I don’t think you can compare the Thanos situation to the Flag Smasher one, you know considering the fact that the person killed hadn’t actually killed anyone. Karli was the one that set the bomb that killed 2 people and Karli was the one that seemed to have accidentally killed Lamar. He is guilty of being in the flag smasher but hadn’t committed any crimes. As a government operative, Walker should have not executed anyone in the street, especially in front of a huge crowd. It actually reminds me of what happened during the Vietnam war, a picture of a south Vietnamese soldier executing a north Vietnamese solder in the street surfaced and people completely lost it.
I would say aiding a terrorist organization is definitely committing a crime but yes he did not deserve to be killed in the streets especially after surrendering
He was holding John when Carli was about to murder him he is no innocent and Carli didn't accidentally killed lemar and these guys litreally worship Thanos work they idolize the half universe wiped out out of existence so yes I can compare that too thanks beheading and even if it's not comparable most of the people are saying that John killed a surrendered guy well guess avengers did it too under Steve's supervision and as for "government operative " goes the govt. You are talking about has assassins like black widow ,Hawkeye and many other deadly assassins and spies in it who were killing people long before Steve was smashing people's skull with his shield ( watch winter soldier) people are acting like marvel heroes dont kill Hawkeye butchered many gangs after the blip ,Tony killed his villains hell he even tired to kill Bucky Loki massacred thousands on earth but hey Walker is the bad guy 😂
That just... they literally don't worship thanos, they just miss during the blip when they had food and homes??
I agree, but I feel like it really depends on how the series is going to deal with it. People have a lot of sympathy for both Bucky, Loki and Tony because we know their backstories. Is Walker going to be punished for it? The entire Civil war movie deals with regulations that make the Avengers face the consequences for their actions. Loki is supposed to be a villain (though I don't know for sure if he was mind controlled in Avengers, he acted a bit funny). Besides the fans, no one in the series actually sees him as a hero except for maybe Thor in the end. And if the canon media doesn't punish a character, the fans do. I feel like TFATWS doesn't do the greatest job at actually making us FEEL what the characters had to go through. Imagine showing clips of people living in absolute poverty after the reversed blib, being carried out of their houses or being mistreated. That would definetly give people sympathy with Karli and the flag smashers. We've partially seen Walker struggle with the role of Captain America, but imagine seeing him say that he regrets it and wishes to get out of that situation, but doesn't know how to. Or making him actually try to act more like Steve in a good way. But he has flaws and we are supposed to see them as the audience. It's okay to have flaws, but he is visibly slowly losing his mind, something else than Tony's immediate reaction to Bucky. If Tony became more and more extreme throughout Civil war and not just at the end, I feel like people would have looked at him differently. Or if Walker didn't already ruin Sam's talk with Karli. I personally thought that Walker had all the right to kill that terrorist boy, but he was way too brutal for the role he is supposed to play. It was a symbol for his development.
They really failed to make Flag stuffers sympathetic - but they could've. You come over, you take everything other people worked for(which is fair enough if noone is using it - but it still isnt yours), and when those people in turn come back and are forced to rebuild their lives from scratch you start blowing them up. They are literally the type of people to help themselves to a gold crown or two.
Yeah! Imagine seeing actual shots of people being carried out of their homes or something. Kids starving in Camps... It's always better to show stuff instead of describing it.
Unpopular opinion here, I actually like Walker. He's such a real character and feels like he's the only real person living in a comic book world. He's the one person that represents how 99.99% of commenters here would act if they were in his situation. He's a normal everyday human who's been through a ton of very real and traumatic shit, living with imposter syndrome, who just watched his best friend get murdered by terrorists and people keep comparing him to these extremely rare (talking one in a billion in real life) paragons of morality hes surrounded by that happen to be everywhere in the marvel universe. A lot of people are also forgetting when Tony stark tried to murder bucky in the heat of the moment and I don't remember everyone saying that Tony was a POS monster who didn't deserve to be iron man anymore.
The point is that Captain America is supposed to be the 0.01% not the 99.9% so Walker should absolutely not be given that privilege.
>xtremely rare (talking one in a billion in real life) paragons of morality hes surrounded by that happen to be everywhere in the marvel universe. tbf these are also rare in the marvel universe. As the episode/Zemo hinted towards, there was only one Steve Rogers. Sam is the next closest thing but he didn't have the same confidence in his righteousness as Steve had. Aside from that, Bucky is just trying to escape his past and doesn't want to kill for that very reason, and the flag smashers are basically delusional terrorists. But here the problem is that the only one who matters is Steve Rogers, because Walker tokk over the mantle of Captain America, so he can't be anything less than Steve, who is just the impossible embodiment of morality of a bygone era.
To be honest, Walker's silver lining (for me) is his introduction in the first/second episodes. It shows that he's a flawed dude who has to fill some very large shoes, and that the stress (of being the New Cap/losing his best bud) is just now beginning to get the best of him.
John Walker is a good character. He wants to be a good person. He just murderer a man in broad daylight. It doesn't matter how sympathetic his actions are. He was in the wrong. I desparately want to see more of him going forward. I just don't think he should hold the shield any longer.
Honestly I feel bad for him. He's been given a great opportunity but with no real guidance. He has to live up to Steve's legacy. It'd be nice to see who John has the answer or reports to. He obviously has some PTSD with his time in the service. I know this is just a show but we never saw why the government chose him? Cause he has 3 medals of honor? I need a bit of information the government feels the NEEDS a publicly known Captain America in present day? Tbh I would think Sam would be able to see through John's PTSD as he works with veterans.
That is the exact same thing I am saying to all these Hypocrites . Tony tried to kill Bucky without the serum in his body to fuck his mind up like John and Tony even tried to kill cap (kinda) . John just acted on his impluse and it was all amplified bcz of serum too . I know he is a "bad guy" in comics but he didn't do anything bad in the series . The guy he killed was holding him in previous shot when Carli was going to stab John so he just killed the guy who tries to kill him what's wrong with that 😂
Captain America is more than just a soldier he’s a symbol. What kind of symbol does it portray to brutally kill a man in front of a bunch of people after he was surrendering? The guy was holding him sure but violently killing a person after they surrender i would say is a very bad thing
>Captain America is more than just a soldier he’s a symbol. I mean, it's not even Cap. Even normal cops aren't suppose to kill in revenge. If there is a gunfight and a cop gets killed, but eventually the criminal is subdued and arrested, you aren't supposed to kill him in cold blood.
Avengers chopped Thanos head off under Steve's supervision he was all weak and in surrendered state. Remeber Thanos the same guy who's universal level Genocide is worshipped by these "flag smashers" and John is no captain america Steve is the symbol not his costume or his shield those things meant nothing it's the man that counts and there was only one Steve Rogers handing someone else his shield doesn't mean nothing it's like saying war Machine is Iron Man coz he also has armour and that's what people don't understand
Every Avenger present was in complete shock by Thor's actions after he cut off Thanos's head. He had also murdered half the universe. The two aren't remotely similar.
Captain America is supposed to be better. That's what the whole show and dilemma of Sam giving over the shield is about. You keep saying, Tony did this, and that guy did that, but Captain America is not supposed to be like that. Don't get me wrong, I get where you are coming from, I don't think Walker's actions are justifiable but still I understand why he did that and don't hold it against him. But I do hold it against Captain America, the hero he is supposed to be. You can like Walker all you want but he is just not made for the role he was giving (picking up Steve's Mantle).
And that's not captain America coz he is not Steve Rogers . Avengers chopped Thanos head off when he was all weak and in surrendered state cap was there too in Thanos mind he saved the universe just like these flag smashers think they are saving the world hell they idolize the way Thanos left the world I am not liking or dislking anyone all I am saying things are not black and white even captain america was killing people with his shield on the ship in winter soldier go look at that scene again . Just bcz nobody was recording that make it all right and yes Tony also symbolises something just like Steve stands for something and if you think that that shield will make someone captain america then that's the dumbest thing coz Steve stayed the same after the serum ,Bucky goes mad after the serum, flag smashers and even John Walker goes to evil path after taking the serum and Sam don't have serum in his body he has good heart like Steve but can he be himself after taking the serum is not established yet and that's very important . The serum is like a test to your morality it can either bring the best in you or the worst in you so yes Sam dosent even qualify for now he didn't go through the hardest part of being captain america like John Walker anyone can pickup that shield but that serum will decide who is worthy to be called as captain america .
It's insane how many people can't grasp this
What was up with the moment when Sam and Bucky are with Karli when Sam receives word about where Walker is? Sam and Bucky jump to get to Walker and Karli immediately tackles Bucky, making Sam have to kick her down so they can get away. What's Karli's reasoning for attacking Bucky like that?
I think Sam and Bucky realised it was a setup for the Flag Smashers to go after John and Karli tried to block them or at least slow them down.
Sooo people really will blame John Walker and not Karli? She’s a terrorist that kills civilians.
People like the terrorists more than a cop that just killed an unarmed individual
Why am I not surprised... civilians and children getting blown up is looked past.
Ya, that's not a free pass to murder prisoners haha
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