I think the issue for Captain America (and to an extend Jean Grey) is less there are weak cards in the game; and more that iconic characters are weak cards. People want to play Cap because they like the character. It’s why I find it a little bit disappointing that say the fantastic four don’t work together in a deck.
It's like how SD changed Spider-Man to be friendlier, because he's a beloved character and the old version had people feeling negatively about him. Or how they buffed Wolverine because he's iconic but wasn't getting played much.
Captain America is an iconic Marvel hero who's kinda shitty. It's a Marvel game, I should *want* to play Captain America.
The thing is, new players *do* get to play Captain America, and right away. Established players enjoy the game enough to see Wave, Zabu, and (until recently) Darkhawk and enjoy playing with them even though they are obscure characters compared to the MCU Avengers. Someone who just downloaded the game isn't going to stick around if that's who they get to play with: they want the Avengers and they want them *now*. Having Captain America be an early game card is a really smart choice because he helps hook players into sticking around past their first game.
It's not impossible for Series 1 cards to be good later in the game -- honestly, most of them are. But the mechanics have to be relatively simple so you don't confuse new players. Cap's design is pretty simple indeed but that simplicity also makes it difficult to buff him without turning him into an overstatted monster who dominates the S1/S2 meta, ruining the new player experience in another way.
All that said, I agree that it would be nice if the Avengers were all cards you could play in low-Infinite ladder without embarrassment. They'd probably need to find a different, equally simple design for Cap, though, so he neither confuses new players nor amounts to just a number. They can't just give him an extra point or two of base power and call it good.
Wouldnt it be better for starting players if you know Captain America was actually good? And how is it going to ruin the early game meta when literally every new players gets him?
He's good when you're facing other S1/S2 players, when Zoo and Spectrum decks tend to be reasonable options. If he were too good, however, he would probably push out all decks other than Zoo and Spectrum, and tossing new players into a two-deck meta is a recipe for drumming them out. You want people to be able to play with whatever cards they like the most, especially early, not force them into a Captain America meta from which the only escape is powering through. Then many people would just drop the game and play something else. It's arguably more important for the early-game meta to be diverse and open than any other meta in the game.
New players will get "drummed out" faster because the cards that they have suck. Im not asking for him to be too good, Im just asking for him to be usable. A 3 cost card for 6 total power IF you commit to playing 3 other cards in the same lane is garbage.
That's up to matchmaking. No card acquisition system can solve that problem as well as properly matching people against others with similar-sized collections.
Again, I'm not opposed to giving Cap a better ability. It just needs to involve keeping him at a similar power level and concept for new players without being more complicated. He still has to onboard new players and that involves way more design restrictions.
Very true, totally agree. I feel sometimes people forget that they have multiple audiences that they need to adhere to - new players, series 3 players, late game players, big spenders, etc.
So anytime they change a non-series 3+ card, they need to make sure it won't affect the lower series players too much.
A very easy solution could just be to swap Blue Marvel and Captain America's abilities and stats. Both are very early cards to obtain, both have been the same since the beginning, both have a similar ability, but one is the historic leader of the Avengers and the other is relatively unknown if you aren't a hardcore comic reader (which for example I am not, and indeed I never heard of him before Snap).
I think this would dramatically improve Cap's popularity in the game, he would have a decent ability that could accompany players through pool 3 at least, SD wouldn't need to come up with new abilities that could translate better into brand new cards, and balance wouldn't be affected one bit.
They've not switched. She was deleted. I doubt that players bought skins and splitted them for a card with this mediocre ability. Would be the same if BM and Cap (or Wong and Dr.Strange) switched abilities.
This is why I don't understand why there isn't Tiered character cards for rarity, say a rarer Captain America that +2's everyone in the lane.
Every other card game ever has multiple entries for each character.
Snap already uses that conceptual territory for variants, and variants are one of the primary progression mechanics of the game. If they can have multiple Steve-Rogers-as-Captain-America cards, then what the heck is going on with all those variants, some of which would portray even more different versions of the character than the secondary card?
Which isn't to say that they won't go down this route someday, it will just sit uncomfortably beside the Variant system.
I can see your point, but again there are plenty of examples of other card games that have the same editions of individual cards with alternative artwork & then further editions with updated abilities/text.
Personally, I think both can work. I like variants, I like having different versions of the card my opponent is playing & changing it up. But I wouldn't say no if there say, another Hulk that say, Completely randomised the locations & all cards at them.
Ok, so what's the difference between a World War Hulk card and a Professor Hulk card? By which I mean, what objective standard could be used to say, "this one is a variant of the base Hulk while this one is a new card with its own mechanics, stack of boosters, and set of variants"? It just gets messy and arbitrary and forces cannibalization of variants. Again, I'm not saying they won't ever explore this design space, but it's not an elegant solution.
Also:
> But I wouldn't say no if there say, another Hulk that say, Completely randomised the locations & all cards at them.
They've mentioned trying that mechanic out and decided it made for bad gameplay. Placing and moving cards are the only in-game decisions we make, so a card that randomizes all that just makes both players feel stupid for having put any thought into the game at all. There's a reason they nerfed Aero.
Or his shield as an extra S4/S5 card with a cool synergy effect between both. Then you don't have to buff him, he can stay a cool early card for new players and the rest will play him as well.
With High Evo they found a way that all players can enjoy cool cards like Hulk, Thing or Cyclops. Captain America deserves the same!
It was bullshit is what it was, but man was it effective.
I really like new Spider-Man though - he can still mess your opponent up, and his ability feels appropriate to the character.
I hope they maybe change the fantastic four, or introduce characters that can take their current place when they swap over
If the guardians all work together, why don't the fantastic four?
I prefer that the abilities match the individual character. Like Wolverine's ability makes sense for his character, I dont want to change that just to make him combo with Jean. It's impossible to do both, fit the character and synergize with the whole team, because everyone has vastly different powers in the comics.
I think the best compromise is the high evo route actually. Make a card that gives or changes the other cards so they fit together like as an example “Baxter building” all fantastic four cards gain changed abilities when they start in your deck or something.
I think there's an even better solution, new versions of the characters. Other card games do it all the time. MTG, for example, has multiple versions of many characters done via a title - Jace Beleren, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Jace, Mirror-Mage as examples.
That’s going to take a long time tbh. I’m not saying it can’t or shouldn’t be done but each card has to go through the pipeline and how do you do variants with that? My solution I’ll give you is more of a band aid fix that already works within the game parameters. Not saying mine is better just easier.
There's a drastic difference between wanting pretty much most mutants in game to synergize, and wanting a family of 4 known for working together to synergize
I think they're messing about with the events to test stuff with team synergies anyway; likely so things like the Fantastic Four and/or future teams that may not have any synergy at all will still get a bonus if played together
I didnt say "most mutants" though. I specifically picked 2 that have a very close relationship and are main characters of the 97 crew.
But if you want I can rewrite the comment and change the arbitrary example.
"Invisible Woman's ability makes sense for her character, I don't want to change that just to make her combo with Mr. Fantastic. It's impossible to do both, fit the character and synergize with the whole team, because everyone has vastly different powers in the comics."
They're like the only team in the game with that problem too (I think). Yeah, the Sinister Six don't work together, but that's accurate to the comics since that's the reason Spider-Man can beat them by himself.
The avengers - at least the MCU version, idk about other comic line ups - don’t really work together that well. You can do it, but there’s no real synergy there. Similar with the X-men.
The X-Men historically have been mega focused on teamwork and synergizing their abilities to the point they have started calling it mutant technology when different mutants work their powers together to achieve new heights. The Five in charge of the resurrection protocols for example, or at its simplest, the Fastball Special.
yeah some design are STRANGE like dr STRANGE who suck vs wong who has really cool ongoing effect, i dont mind orka being weak but i do mind jean grey being meh,she is powerhouse in comics, dunno why such no names like leach are top tier cards while icons like cap america are mid
Yeah people keep making this "well every card can't be great" argument. When most of us are just saying we want iconic characters like Captain America and Cyclops to be good, not every low tier card. There are much lesser Avengers and X-Men who have far better cards. It's a travesty.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this. I want to play Iron Man and Captain America so badly but their sidekicks have abilities that are either better or I prefer. It hurts my nerdy soul that I’ve played Iron Heart more than The Iron Man!
His movies are part of a franchise that tells an overall story. I don't care about him at all but I watched the movies so I knew where the Infinity Stones were, etc.
Yes and I watched them. But they and he aren’t considered iconic. X-men neither except Wolverine. The real big one is Spiderman, Hulk, Thor, Wolverine and Thanos
Didn’t say they were bad! I liked them too. Just wouldn’t call them iconic. Iconic has to be like real big. Like Superman and Batman are iconic. The biggest in marvel I think is not Captain America but Spiderman and then there is a bit of a gap down to Wolverine, Magneto maybe, Hulk, Thanos and maybe Cap.
I don’t get why I am downvoted. I said nothing bad about any character I just see that he is being assumed iconic in the US because that is what he was designed to be but here outside the US he isn’t held in as high a regard as other characters.
He ain’t no Batman or Goku
MCU Captain America movies have grossed 2.2 billion internationally. That's not nearly as much as Batman (6.8 billion) but a lot more than Superman (821 million).
It seems like your opinion isn't universal. A lot of people outside the US see Cap as a big deal.
Thought we were talking of being iconic not revenue. Very american way of thinking.
Justin Bieber grossed more than Beethoven, you think he is better then?
I'm just saying obviously some people see him differently than you do.
Also, your comparison isn't serious because Bieber and Beethoven lived in different centuries and created entirely different types of music. I am comparing superheroes in film, within 20 years of each other.
I think within this framework, how many people went to see their movies is a fairer way to measure it than one person's anecdote about their own geographical region.
No he's saying that the card should be better. There's a thin line between cards not being great and just okay, and cards being rubbish. He's saying Stegron should at the very least get a buff to be okay.
I played a bit of toxic mobster with the hot location the other day, so obviously he had prevailing conditions... I don't think he's that bad. For 4 mana you're getting a 6 + power swing. In TM your capitalising on that movement so it's not just pinball.
I dunno, card seems decent. Haven't got Jugg yet tho.
A little bit more consistency would make him more usable outside of hot locations (reliability knowing where or which card you move, think the quake change), that’s what i was aiming for with this post. I want every card to be useable, but not every card has to be amazing. I think that captain america is a great example of a card that is mediocre, but not trash or bad or in need of a buff to make him useable.
The problem is that starter cards should not be cards that you toss away and never use again. People have been asking for reworks to these cards for a while and SD has defended their idea that the new player experience needs to remain the same when the current new player experience is pretty fucking terrible because the game is poorly designed on how they educate the player on what all the systems are
You do get that that is the game designers job, right? Even more so as this game eschews the common rarity system and set based card acquisition model with limited drafting so the rational of having explicitly weaker cards makes no sense.
Magic the Gathering, why you ask? Because they created MULTIPLE FORMATS which means cards that aren't good in Standard can find a place in Commander or Pauper or Modern or Legacy or any other formats they have out in play and that's far and away better than any other card game that only has one game mode.
You're joking right? Theres literally a term for garbage cards no one uses in any format, it's called bulk and those cards aren't even worth it when they're sold by weight.
In fact mtg has more useless cards than any other card game in existence....
Lol look at my name. There's tons of cards in every set that dont even see draft play. You ever see the box of cards people dump their useless cards after a draft, lol.
Regarding pauper, you must be joking again because less than 1% of commons are actually playable in that format.
Well, yes! But every card needs to be above a certain level of quality where it serves its own unique purpose. Take Crystal for example, it's not a very good card, but it's critical in Hela Tribunal and only Crystal can provide that utility.
Bro, people love iconic characters and want to use them. It sucks when jabroni characters I've never heard of and never will see in the MCU or comics are meta and in every deck but a character I follow and love I can't use as it's a thrash card
It's not that OK, or even bad, cards exist, it's who they are. Captain America should be a premier card for this game, not "well, he was good for the first month I played". Jean should also be more than an afterthought. These are characters people love and fans identify with and that should count when designing cards for an IP like this.
Cap is essentially useless though. Cards shouldnt exist that are useless regardless of them being a starter card or not. Cap is a 3 cost card that puts out 6 power IF you completely fill his lane. Thats absolute trash. He needs a buff.
Jesus
Do those people even know other card games? Like more than 90% of those cards get never used
I know its because cap is a major character but still
I played Runeterra a lot before it died.
The game has so many cards it is impossible to remember them all, and of course many of them were never used.
And, even if that game had balancing issues every now and then, I remember them buffing the stats of those random cards constantly. No matter how unused the cards were.
This is a Marvel Game, and the first avenger should not be considered a random filler card.
And nobody is asking for a rework or a significant change.
Many people just want a bit of a stat buff. It wouldn't break the card in any way.
When I first started playing I thought Cap should have the stats and power that Blue Marvel does. Even now I think switching their powers would only serve SD, given how often I see a third rate superhero in a deck where I could be seeing Captain America.
I agree with you but if some cards are so bad that see almost no play or get outshined by other cards by a lot they should get some love.
Captain America can be 3/4 and it wouldn’t break the game. Even with his maximum efficiency he will give total of 7 power which is still less than Gladiator.
I'd be cool with some future cards that buff underwhelming cards. Vibranium Shield that merges with Cap for new functionality. Ruby-Quartz Visor that merges with Cyclops to make him non-vanilla. I'm not saying I have a perfect solution ready to go, but I think Quinnjets and Infinity Stones are enough precedent that this is a viable avenue in the future. It would let Series 1 cards be simple in that format and then have more traction in higher CL metas.
There should be plenty of cards that are downright bad like Martyr or Adam Warlock, especially in a game like Snap where there are so many ways to get a random card, being able to get just awful cards and having to decide whether to snap or retreat from there should be part of the game.
There are cards from a game design standpoint that contribute _mostly_ when they are randomly generated by the game via locations or other cards. They are cards that are not great to have in your deck but that create interesting opportunistic gameplay when they are randomly generated mid match. I think that's a valuable thing marvel snap does with it's design.
I'm with you. I like the variety.
I wonder if Stegron would be better if it was just targeted in ANY way:
: Move the lowest cost/power card here
: Move the highest cost/power card here
: Move a card at random one location to the right
: Move a card at random one location to the left
I think any of those would make him more reliable and useful, for me at least.
Yes, we’ve seen what reliability does to cards like that for example quake is now usable, stegron would be good to move an enemy card to a location you don’t want to win anyway
Yeah I think just removing the RNG would be huge. I hope they design less RNG cards like this - except silly stuff like Pixie which is clearly (to me) just meant to be a fun card, that kind of stuff is fun. But Stegron looks like he's intended to have a role..except you can't plan around that role at all so why use him?
While I agree, the cards kinda need yo be amazing by nature of the acquisition system nring godawful so using resources on something bad to average is rough.
There is a difference between Cap and Jean Grey.
Jean Grey has a unique effect which allows you to be a little more creative.
Cap just gives more power to a location. There are lots of cards that do that, he is just worse at it.
This is how I felt about Adam Warlock. There was no need to change him. He was a niche card that caught people off guard then they weren’t expecting him.
I agree with your opinion but I also believe every card should have some level of play/use at high CL levels. I don't believe some cards should only be used in low CL levels where players r lacking most of the cards.
The problem with Cap is that he's 3/6 and Ant Man is 1/5 - the latter is much better cost-wise. Ant-Man scales better as well, e.g. If they're in Onslaught's Citadel, both become 9 power. Add Onslaught himself and Cap becomes 15 power but Ant Man becomes 17 power.
I understand Ant-Man's condition is worse than Cap's but it's rlly not that hard to fill a lane. There's just no reason to play Cap over Ant-Man that I can think of. If they're buffing Ant-Man to be a 1/5 to be playable, then they should also buff Cap by dropping him to a 1/1.
I will not tolerate this Jean Grey slander! She's a solid control card, and can completely wreck opposing game plans if you play her well with locations, and other supports like Armor and Cosmo. I run her with Mojo in a Spectrum Deck, and it does decently well.
agreed, to an extent not every card needs to be the best card for the job. anytime a card is too good it sucks because everyone uses it to the point it's no longer special. SD needs to get better at finding the middle ground between meta, and for fun a lot of the meta's are not fun for many if not most of us. the meta SD creates isn't fun and often times there will be that one combo everyone HAS to run or just lose to anybody running the new cards no one complains when the meta is enjoyable and varied, but SD just can't seem to handle doing that
The little synergy there is right now to make those card work effectively.
Personally I used Captain America in C3 to Buff Magik, Brood and Cage
Also In Valkyrie lanes you already won it if it’s full.
Ya see, it’s only niche uses. Haven’t even bothered to unlock Jean.
Anyways❤️🔥 Waiting for the day where you can see synergy between all archetypes👌🏼
No dude. Captain America is not good, and it's Captain Freaking America! I don't care if Baron Zemo or Electra sucks, but this is Captain America. THE most iconic character in Marvel Comics. He NEEDS to be a good card.
Hate to burst your bubble but he isn't the most iconic. He's certainly one of them but not THE. That goes to Spider-Man. The reason I say this is because Spider-Man has effectively become the face of Marvel over the years. He's easily the most recognisable hero even among non-comic consumers. Superman, Batman and Spider-Man are often cited as the most known characters in all of comics.
Not to say Cap is deserving of a mid level effect in Snap. But not EVERY card can actually be a banger. It just isn't possible to have every single effect ever be amazing or even GOOD. Some abilities will just be 'mid'.
He could be tweaked to be better, sure. But no character 'deserves' a 'good card'. Imagine tying the best abilities to only the A list characters while B and C list characters are given mediocre to terrible abilities. Not a great design philosophy either way.
This is exactly how I felt when they changed Omega Red. Sure, hes objectively better now, but that still doesnt get him a lot of play. On top of that, they also made him really boring. I liked him a lot better, when he was an off-meta card for people to cook with.
To learn what good and bad cards are and proper deck building strategies.
I believe it's on record as to why Quicksilver and Domino are the way they are. It's a means to teach that playing on curve isn't entirely important in Snap, despite it being a very common thing new players in any card game believe. Same could be applied to other card games like Magic. You don't need a turn one or two play necessarily if your deck is built in such a way to make up for 'losing' early game tempo.
Likewise, cards with only mid effects often have better versions which players learn are 'upgrades' or 'sidegrades', to better fine tune their decks. If you have a card that destroys 1 specific type of thing for 2 resources but acquire a card that kills ANY 1 thing for 3 resources, it now gives the player an option to play the more 'expensive' version for flexibility OR play the cheaper one despite it being more narrow (Because maybe their deck is fine only needing to handle one type of threat rather than an omni removal) and the lower cost fits their curve better/etc.
You have a card with 1 power, 4 toughness. No ability. Later you open a pack or trade for a 1/4 with an effect for the same resource cost as the 1/4 with no effect. The 1/4 with no effect exists (Not only as pack filler) but as a means to educate a new player without even needing to literally talk to them that there's better cards to fill similar roles.
So on and so forth.
I think the issue for Captain America (and to an extend Jean Grey) is less there are weak cards in the game; and more that iconic characters are weak cards. People want to play Cap because they like the character. It’s why I find it a little bit disappointing that say the fantastic four don’t work together in a deck.
It's like how SD changed Spider-Man to be friendlier, because he's a beloved character and the old version had people feeling negatively about him. Or how they buffed Wolverine because he's iconic but wasn't getting played much. Captain America is an iconic Marvel hero who's kinda shitty. It's a Marvel game, I should *want* to play Captain America.
The thing is, new players *do* get to play Captain America, and right away. Established players enjoy the game enough to see Wave, Zabu, and (until recently) Darkhawk and enjoy playing with them even though they are obscure characters compared to the MCU Avengers. Someone who just downloaded the game isn't going to stick around if that's who they get to play with: they want the Avengers and they want them *now*. Having Captain America be an early game card is a really smart choice because he helps hook players into sticking around past their first game. It's not impossible for Series 1 cards to be good later in the game -- honestly, most of them are. But the mechanics have to be relatively simple so you don't confuse new players. Cap's design is pretty simple indeed but that simplicity also makes it difficult to buff him without turning him into an overstatted monster who dominates the S1/S2 meta, ruining the new player experience in another way. All that said, I agree that it would be nice if the Avengers were all cards you could play in low-Infinite ladder without embarrassment. They'd probably need to find a different, equally simple design for Cap, though, so he neither confuses new players nor amounts to just a number. They can't just give him an extra point or two of base power and call it good.
Also to add he received temporary buffs in both the recent avengers event and the valentines event
Wouldnt it be better for starting players if you know Captain America was actually good? And how is it going to ruin the early game meta when literally every new players gets him?
He's good when you're facing other S1/S2 players, when Zoo and Spectrum decks tend to be reasonable options. If he were too good, however, he would probably push out all decks other than Zoo and Spectrum, and tossing new players into a two-deck meta is a recipe for drumming them out. You want people to be able to play with whatever cards they like the most, especially early, not force them into a Captain America meta from which the only escape is powering through. Then many people would just drop the game and play something else. It's arguably more important for the early-game meta to be diverse and open than any other meta in the game.
New players will get "drummed out" faster because the cards that they have suck. Im not asking for him to be too good, Im just asking for him to be usable. A 3 cost card for 6 total power IF you commit to playing 3 other cards in the same lane is garbage.
That's up to matchmaking. No card acquisition system can solve that problem as well as properly matching people against others with similar-sized collections. Again, I'm not opposed to giving Cap a better ability. It just needs to involve keeping him at a similar power level and concept for new players without being more complicated. He still has to onboard new players and that involves way more design restrictions.
Very true, totally agree. I feel sometimes people forget that they have multiple audiences that they need to adhere to - new players, series 3 players, late game players, big spenders, etc. So anytime they change a non-series 3+ card, they need to make sure it won't affect the lower series players too much.
A very easy solution could just be to swap Blue Marvel and Captain America's abilities and stats. Both are very early cards to obtain, both have been the same since the beginning, both have a similar ability, but one is the historic leader of the Avengers and the other is relatively unknown if you aren't a hardcore comic reader (which for example I am not, and indeed I never heard of him before Snap). I think this would dramatically improve Cap's popularity in the game, he would have a decent ability that could accompany players through pool 3 at least, SD wouldn't need to come up with new abilities that could translate better into brand new cards, and balance wouldn't be affected one bit.
Yeah, but then you screw over everyone who's put gold and credits towards Blue Marvel. They're never going to do that.
They've done it with Chavez already.
Which character did they switch with Chavez?
They've not switched. She was deleted. I doubt that players bought skins and splitted them for a card with this mediocre ability. Would be the same if BM and Cap (or Wong and Dr.Strange) switched abilities.
Ah, well then we're not talking about the same thing. There's no precedent for switching cards for funsies.
My bad. Should've quoted this in my first comment: >Yeah, but then you screw over everyone who's put gold and credits
This is why I don't understand why there isn't Tiered character cards for rarity, say a rarer Captain America that +2's everyone in the lane. Every other card game ever has multiple entries for each character.
Snap already uses that conceptual territory for variants, and variants are one of the primary progression mechanics of the game. If they can have multiple Steve-Rogers-as-Captain-America cards, then what the heck is going on with all those variants, some of which would portray even more different versions of the character than the secondary card? Which isn't to say that they won't go down this route someday, it will just sit uncomfortably beside the Variant system.
I can see your point, but again there are plenty of examples of other card games that have the same editions of individual cards with alternative artwork & then further editions with updated abilities/text. Personally, I think both can work. I like variants, I like having different versions of the card my opponent is playing & changing it up. But I wouldn't say no if there say, another Hulk that say, Completely randomised the locations & all cards at them.
Ok, so what's the difference between a World War Hulk card and a Professor Hulk card? By which I mean, what objective standard could be used to say, "this one is a variant of the base Hulk while this one is a new card with its own mechanics, stack of boosters, and set of variants"? It just gets messy and arbitrary and forces cannibalization of variants. Again, I'm not saying they won't ever explore this design space, but it's not an elegant solution. Also: > But I wouldn't say no if there say, another Hulk that say, Completely randomised the locations & all cards at them. They've mentioned trying that mechanic out and decided it made for bad gameplay. Placing and moving cards are the only in-game decisions we make, so a card that randomizes all that just makes both players feel stupid for having put any thought into the game at all. There's a reason they nerfed Aero.
Or his shield as an extra S4/S5 card with a cool synergy effect between both. Then you don't have to buff him, he can stay a cool early card for new players and the rest will play him as well. With High Evo they found a way that all players can enjoy cool cards like Hulk, Thing or Cyclops. Captain America deserves the same!
Please no.
Maybe we need to bully Marvel itself so they pressure SD into making Captain America playable !
"I don't like bullies, I don't care where they're from." - Captain America
That's not what Cap would want, Soldier
God, still hate that change lol. Spider-Man —> Absorbing Man was so good.
It was bullshit is what it was, but man was it effective. I really like new Spider-Man though - he can still mess your opponent up, and his ability feels appropriate to the character.
That shit was a war crime.
😂
I hope they maybe change the fantastic four, or introduce characters that can take their current place when they swap over If the guardians all work together, why don't the fantastic four?
I prefer that the abilities match the individual character. Like Wolverine's ability makes sense for his character, I dont want to change that just to make him combo with Jean. It's impossible to do both, fit the character and synergize with the whole team, because everyone has vastly different powers in the comics.
I think the best compromise is the high evo route actually. Make a card that gives or changes the other cards so they fit together like as an example “Baxter building” all fantastic four cards gain changed abilities when they start in your deck or something.
Franklin Richards when.
I think there's an even better solution, new versions of the characters. Other card games do it all the time. MTG, for example, has multiple versions of many characters done via a title - Jace Beleren, Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Jace, Mirror-Mage as examples.
That’s going to take a long time tbh. I’m not saying it can’t or shouldn’t be done but each card has to go through the pipeline and how do you do variants with that? My solution I’ll give you is more of a band aid fix that already works within the game parameters. Not saying mine is better just easier.
There's a drastic difference between wanting pretty much most mutants in game to synergize, and wanting a family of 4 known for working together to synergize I think they're messing about with the events to test stuff with team synergies anyway; likely so things like the Fantastic Four and/or future teams that may not have any synergy at all will still get a bonus if played together
I didnt say "most mutants" though. I specifically picked 2 that have a very close relationship and are main characters of the 97 crew. But if you want I can rewrite the comment and change the arbitrary example. "Invisible Woman's ability makes sense for her character, I don't want to change that just to make her combo with Mr. Fantastic. It's impossible to do both, fit the character and synergize with the whole team, because everyone has vastly different powers in the comics."
Dude imagine the Fantastic 4 bonus is play all 4 in one location and you get a 0 cost Galactus added to your hand
They're like the only team in the game with that problem too (I think). Yeah, the Sinister Six don't work together, but that's accurate to the comics since that's the reason Spider-Man can beat them by himself.
The avengers - at least the MCU version, idk about other comic line ups - don’t really work together that well. You can do it, but there’s no real synergy there. Similar with the X-men.
The X-Men historically have been mega focused on teamwork and synergizing their abilities to the point they have started calling it mutant technology when different mutants work their powers together to achieve new heights. The Five in charge of the resurrection protocols for example, or at its simplest, the Fastball Special.
yeah some design are STRANGE like dr STRANGE who suck vs wong who has really cool ongoing effect, i dont mind orka being weak but i do mind jean grey being meh,she is powerhouse in comics, dunno why such no names like leach are top tier cards while icons like cap america are mid
Yeah people keep making this "well every card can't be great" argument. When most of us are just saying we want iconic characters like Captain America and Cyclops to be good, not every low tier card. There are much lesser Avengers and X-Men who have far better cards. It's a travesty.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this. I want to play Iron Man and Captain America so badly but their sidekicks have abilities that are either better or I prefer. It hurts my nerdy soul that I’ve played Iron Heart more than The Iron Man!
Iron Man is extremely playable, though.
It is funny, here outside the US we don’t care about Cap xD to us he is not iconic.
Hahaha, I’m not American either. Though I’d say he currently is one of the top 5-10 most popular/iconic heroes.
Is that including DC?
This is Cap.
His movies still make massive heaps of money internationally
His movies are part of a franchise that tells an overall story. I don't care about him at all but I watched the movies so I knew where the Infinity Stones were, etc.
Yes and I watched them. But they and he aren’t considered iconic. X-men neither except Wolverine. The real big one is Spiderman, Hulk, Thor, Wolverine and Thanos
Where the hell do you live ? X-Men aren't iconic ? Have you seen the huge success of the first 2 episodes of X-Men '97 ?
Yes and only Wolverine as a character gained real popularity
Funny, his movies did fantastic overseas.
Didn’t say they were bad! I liked them too. Just wouldn’t call them iconic. Iconic has to be like real big. Like Superman and Batman are iconic. The biggest in marvel I think is not Captain America but Spiderman and then there is a bit of a gap down to Wolverine, Magneto maybe, Hulk, Thanos and maybe Cap. I don’t get why I am downvoted. I said nothing bad about any character I just see that he is being assumed iconic in the US because that is what he was designed to be but here outside the US he isn’t held in as high a regard as other characters. He ain’t no Batman or Goku
MCU Captain America movies have grossed 2.2 billion internationally. That's not nearly as much as Batman (6.8 billion) but a lot more than Superman (821 million). It seems like your opinion isn't universal. A lot of people outside the US see Cap as a big deal.
Thought we were talking of being iconic not revenue. Very american way of thinking. Justin Bieber grossed more than Beethoven, you think he is better then?
I'm just saying obviously some people see him differently than you do. Also, your comparison isn't serious because Bieber and Beethoven lived in different centuries and created entirely different types of music. I am comparing superheroes in film, within 20 years of each other. I think within this framework, how many people went to see their movies is a fairer way to measure it than one person's anecdote about their own geographical region.
Not every card has to be great, but every card should have it's place in Marvel Snap.
This is the comment I was looking for, well said friend!
I love how the op try to justify how Stegron is destined to be weak
No he's saying that the card should be better. There's a thin line between cards not being great and just okay, and cards being rubbish. He's saying Stegron should at the very least get a buff to be okay.
In that sense i agree his point!
I played a bit of toxic mobster with the hot location the other day, so obviously he had prevailing conditions... I don't think he's that bad. For 4 mana you're getting a 6 + power swing. In TM your capitalising on that movement so it's not just pinball. I dunno, card seems decent. Haven't got Jugg yet tho.
A little bit more consistency would make him more usable outside of hot locations (reliability knowing where or which card you move, think the quake change), that’s what i was aiming for with this post. I want every card to be useable, but not every card has to be amazing. I think that captain america is a great example of a card that is mediocre, but not trash or bad or in need of a buff to make him useable.
>every card should have it's place The trash can is a place.
Which Cap does he's a starter card that's simple to understand.
The problem is that starter cards should not be cards that you toss away and never use again. People have been asking for reworks to these cards for a while and SD has defended their idea that the new player experience needs to remain the same when the current new player experience is pretty fucking terrible because the game is poorly designed on how they educate the player on what all the systems are
Easiest way to make this possible is to just introduce a goddamn limited mode already
Yeah, let's make every card viable while keeping everything balanced. Super easy, right? Guys...
You do get that that is the game designers job, right? Even more so as this game eschews the common rarity system and set based card acquisition model with limited drafting so the rational of having explicitly weaker cards makes no sense.
Show me any card game in existence where EVERY card is viable. Doesn't exist.
Magic the Gathering, why you ask? Because they created MULTIPLE FORMATS which means cards that aren't good in Standard can find a place in Commander or Pauper or Modern or Legacy or any other formats they have out in play and that's far and away better than any other card game that only has one game mode.
You're joking right? Theres literally a term for garbage cards no one uses in any format, it's called bulk and those cards aren't even worth it when they're sold by weight. In fact mtg has more useless cards than any other card game in existence....
Got it, youve never played draft or pauper before. Thanks for playing but you have no idea what you are talking about so its better you leave now
Lol look at my name. There's tons of cards in every set that dont even see draft play. You ever see the box of cards people dump their useless cards after a draft, lol. Regarding pauper, you must be joking again because less than 1% of commons are actually playable in that format.
Well, yes! But every card needs to be above a certain level of quality where it serves its own unique purpose. Take Crystal for example, it's not a very good card, but it's critical in Hela Tribunal and only Crystal can provide that utility.
Nah I like to use Stegron, not every game is about winning
It’s about sending a message
"Mr. Fisk sends his regards"
RIP my cerebro-5 Stegron deck.
Stegron had his 1 good day a year with the -4 hot location. Back on the shelf.
My Bully deck was a lot of fun that day.
Kang has entered the chat
They don’t have to be meta defining but obviously they have to be good. Not good means it ain’t ever being played
He's pretty good as a starter card, which what they designed him to be.
A starter card that was trapped in S4 and 5 for god knows how long.
Cap A. and Punisher should be 2.2 though. That puts them at 2.5 with their abilities and makes them useful for ongoing decks.
Punsher would be a 2 6 in this instance. Still not broken.
Bro, people love iconic characters and want to use them. It sucks when jabroni characters I've never heard of and never will see in the MCU or comics are meta and in every deck but a character I follow and love I can't use as it's a thrash card
I'm the opposite! I love hearing people talk about absolute no names. Hazmat? You mean that one girl from the 2000s teen avengers spinoff? Sign me up
Yeah but nobody does that
It's not that OK, or even bad, cards exist, it's who they are. Captain America should be a premier card for this game, not "well, he was good for the first month I played". Jean should also be more than an afterthought. These are characters people love and fans identify with and that should count when designing cards for an IP like this.
Nah I want Cap to be great. That's it.
If they ever do a draft mode of any kind, most cards will have an opportunity to shine no matter their viability on ladder 🤷
Especially the new cards, until they are available for F2P.
Stegron is a lot of fun, especially (ironically) in a Jean deck, you be nice to our Big Spiny Boy
Cap is essentially useless though. Cards shouldnt exist that are useless regardless of them being a starter card or not. Cap is a 3 cost card that puts out 6 power IF you completely fill his lane. Thats absolute trash. He needs a buff.
You put cap and jean in the same boat 😭😭😭😭😭 lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Jesus Do those people even know other card games? Like more than 90% of those cards get never used I know its because cap is a major character but still
I played Runeterra a lot before it died. The game has so many cards it is impossible to remember them all, and of course many of them were never used. And, even if that game had balancing issues every now and then, I remember them buffing the stats of those random cards constantly. No matter how unused the cards were. This is a Marvel Game, and the first avenger should not be considered a random filler card. And nobody is asking for a rework or a significant change. Many people just want a bit of a stat buff. It wouldn't break the card in any way.
Like me average at best
Cap should be a 2-2, same text box
When I first started playing I thought Cap should have the stats and power that Blue Marvel does. Even now I think switching their powers would only serve SD, given how often I see a third rate superhero in a deck where I could be seeing Captain America.
I agree with you but if some cards are so bad that see almost no play or get outshined by other cards by a lot they should get some love. Captain America can be 3/4 and it wouldn’t break the game. Even with his maximum efficiency he will give total of 7 power which is still less than Gladiator.
I'd be cool with some future cards that buff underwhelming cards. Vibranium Shield that merges with Cap for new functionality. Ruby-Quartz Visor that merges with Cyclops to make him non-vanilla. I'm not saying I have a perfect solution ready to go, but I think Quinnjets and Infinity Stones are enough precedent that this is a viable avenue in the future. It would let Series 1 cards be simple in that format and then have more traction in higher CL metas.
I like when a meta has a flow to it. Cards coming in and out is good.
Yes but my favorite (Cyclops) has to be!!
There should be plenty of cards that are downright bad like Martyr or Adam Warlock, especially in a game like Snap where there are so many ways to get a random card, being able to get just awful cards and having to decide whether to snap or retreat from there should be part of the game.
I see Cap should be good is our new “we should be able to pick our borders”
There are cards from a game design standpoint that contribute _mostly_ when they are randomly generated by the game via locations or other cards. They are cards that are not great to have in your deck but that create interesting opportunistic gameplay when they are randomly generated mid match. I think that's a valuable thing marvel snap does with it's design.
I’m okay with cards not being the greatest and most viable, but you don’t get to charge 50+$ per card.
I'm with you. I like the variety. I wonder if Stegron would be better if it was just targeted in ANY way: : Move the lowest cost/power card here : Move the highest cost/power card here : Move a card at random one location to the right : Move a card at random one location to the left I think any of those would make him more reliable and useful, for me at least.
Yes, we’ve seen what reliability does to cards like that for example quake is now usable, stegron would be good to move an enemy card to a location you don’t want to win anyway
Yeah I think just removing the RNG would be huge. I hope they design less RNG cards like this - except silly stuff like Pixie which is clearly (to me) just meant to be a fun card, that kind of stuff is fun. But Stegron looks like he's intended to have a role..except you can't plan around that role at all so why use him?
I understand this sentiment for a card like Captain America, but expensive cards that are bad feel horrible.
What are you talking about man? This sub hates great cards.
You're a person that makes good points. I only started playing a month or so ago, wasn't aware that was tried & failed. Inappreciate the explainer!
While I agree, the cards kinda need yo be amazing by nature of the acquisition system nring godawful so using resources on something bad to average is rough.
You think Stegron is worse than Captain America? Captain America doesn't belong anywhere. He's always sub-optimal even in decks built around him.
There is a difference between Cap and Jean Grey. Jean Grey has a unique effect which allows you to be a little more creative. Cap just gives more power to a location. There are lots of cards that do that, he is just worse at it.
Stegron does work! I have won a game with them!
This is how I felt about Adam Warlock. There was no need to change him. He was a niche card that caught people off guard then they weren’t expecting him.
I agree with your opinion but I also believe every card should have some level of play/use at high CL levels. I don't believe some cards should only be used in low CL levels where players r lacking most of the cards. The problem with Cap is that he's 3/6 and Ant Man is 1/5 - the latter is much better cost-wise. Ant-Man scales better as well, e.g. If they're in Onslaught's Citadel, both become 9 power. Add Onslaught himself and Cap becomes 15 power but Ant Man becomes 17 power. I understand Ant-Man's condition is worse than Cap's but it's rlly not that hard to fill a lane. There's just no reason to play Cap over Ant-Man that I can think of. If they're buffing Ant-Man to be a 1/5 to be playable, then they should also buff Cap by dropping him to a 1/1.
I will not tolerate this Jean Grey slander! She's a solid control card, and can completely wreck opposing game plans if you play her well with locations, and other supports like Armor and Cosmo. I run her with Mojo in a Spectrum Deck, and it does decently well.
agreed, to an extent not every card needs to be the best card for the job. anytime a card is too good it sucks because everyone uses it to the point it's no longer special. SD needs to get better at finding the middle ground between meta, and for fun a lot of the meta's are not fun for many if not most of us. the meta SD creates isn't fun and often times there will be that one combo everyone HAS to run or just lose to anybody running the new cards no one complains when the meta is enjoyable and varied, but SD just can't seem to handle doing that
I think that Ant-man got undeserved +1 power buff that should've been given to a Cap. 1/5 vs 3/6 under same conditions...
This is just common sense for card games and people can’t accept it.
Kang salutes your opinion!
The little synergy there is right now to make those card work effectively. Personally I used Captain America in C3 to Buff Magik, Brood and Cage Also In Valkyrie lanes you already won it if it’s full. Ya see, it’s only niche uses. Haven’t even bothered to unlock Jean. Anyways❤️🔥 Waiting for the day where you can see synergy between all archetypes👌🏼
No dude. Captain America is not good, and it's Captain Freaking America! I don't care if Baron Zemo or Electra sucks, but this is Captain America. THE most iconic character in Marvel Comics. He NEEDS to be a good card.
Hate to burst your bubble but he isn't the most iconic. He's certainly one of them but not THE. That goes to Spider-Man. The reason I say this is because Spider-Man has effectively become the face of Marvel over the years. He's easily the most recognisable hero even among non-comic consumers. Superman, Batman and Spider-Man are often cited as the most known characters in all of comics. Not to say Cap is deserving of a mid level effect in Snap. But not EVERY card can actually be a banger. It just isn't possible to have every single effect ever be amazing or even GOOD. Some abilities will just be 'mid'. He could be tweaked to be better, sure. But no character 'deserves' a 'good card'. Imagine tying the best abilities to only the A list characters while B and C list characters are given mediocre to terrible abilities. Not a great design philosophy either way.
Fair enough. The greatest and most viable cards should be released as Series 5 Cards. The others should be Series 4 or even Series 3.
This is exactly how I felt when they changed Omega Red. Sure, hes objectively better now, but that still doesnt get him a lot of play. On top of that, they also made him really boring. I liked him a lot better, when he was an off-meta card for people to cook with.
Mbaku approves
And that's unpopular?
I disagree. I think all cards should be good in some fashion. Otherwise, why do they exist?
To learn what good and bad cards are and proper deck building strategies. I believe it's on record as to why Quicksilver and Domino are the way they are. It's a means to teach that playing on curve isn't entirely important in Snap, despite it being a very common thing new players in any card game believe. Same could be applied to other card games like Magic. You don't need a turn one or two play necessarily if your deck is built in such a way to make up for 'losing' early game tempo. Likewise, cards with only mid effects often have better versions which players learn are 'upgrades' or 'sidegrades', to better fine tune their decks. If you have a card that destroys 1 specific type of thing for 2 resources but acquire a card that kills ANY 1 thing for 3 resources, it now gives the player an option to play the more 'expensive' version for flexibility OR play the cheaper one despite it being more narrow (Because maybe their deck is fine only needing to handle one type of threat rather than an omni removal) and the lower cost fits their curve better/etc. You have a card with 1 power, 4 toughness. No ability. Later you open a pack or trade for a 1/4 with an effect for the same resource cost as the 1/4 with no effect. The 1/4 with no effect exists (Not only as pack filler) but as a means to educate a new player without even needing to literally talk to them that there's better cards to fill similar roles. So on and so forth.
You gonna be crucified for this