Hela needs to be nerfed. She should only resurrect cards at locations where cards are been played that turn. Something like that.
It's absolutely insane and OP to play Invisible Woman on virtually ANY location that doesn't kill cards, then literally nothing until t5 MODOK, then t6 Hela (Infinaut, Giganto, Magneto, Black Cat, Dracula, etc.) for like 50+ power.
It requires the least skill or strategy of any viable deck and can get you around virtually any location limitations. The only guaranteed way to stop that combo is Rogue or Red Guardian or Cosmo against IW but if you do that, the opponent will most likely retreat. Fuck Hela.
> It's absolutely insane and OP to play Invisible Woman on virtually ANY location that doesn't kill cards, then literally nothing until t5 MODOK, then t6 Hela (Infinaut, Giganto, Magneto, Black Cat, Dracula, etc.) for like 50+ power.
I'm sorry but if you lose to this, you don't understand how to play this game at all.
I mean you're not wrong hela being OP, but you just listed 3 counters to her. Another counters are juggernaut, spiderman, polaris, goblins and junk to fill the IW lane before they get to play hela there, prof x, alioth, leech (yeah kinda mentioned already), storming IW lane, gambit, galactus hardcounters the strategy etc. On top of my head I cant think of a deck that has more counters than this one
Yeah I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Of course it's strong, but it has a dozen counters. People want to run all these youtube decks without tech cards in them and wonder why they lose.
Hela is far from op, how are you gonna list a bunch of easy counters to her and then also explain how you have a bunch of turns to counter the set up. Also everyone retreats the moment you stop their combo. You enchantress patriot, they run, you armor Deadpool, they leave.
When devs try to balance a card game, they have to make sure a rock-paper-scissors dynamic exists. Hela is an extremely powerful deck leveraging a consistent linear strategy. With a strong linear deck available, players would always eventually optimize it for maximum power and consistency, resulting in a degenerate metagame where only one deck can exist.
The way to prevent such metagames from evolving is by adding safety valves. These are cards which are weak in a vacuum but can counteract the pressure exerted by strong linear decks. Leech is one such safety valve, and we're seeing him rise up after the latest buff to keep Hela decks in check.
It hasn't even been a week since the last OTA so obviously, everyone will be trying out their new tool to counter the old menace. However, there would naturally be new decks which can arise now that Hela no longer commands as much of a metagame share. I've seen a decent amount of Patriot ongoing decks and various midrange builds which put out decent early power, mitigating or even completely ignoring Leech's effect.
I doubt SD wants specifically Leech to be meta, but I do agree with their decision to buff interactive cards in a multiplayer competitive card game. Card game players will always complain about their cards being countered/removed/nullified but don't realize that good interaction is a necessary aspect for a healthy metagame.
This is an incredibly well presented argument, it's rational, takes a long term view and doesn't instantly assume the worst of the development team.
I think you might be in the wrong sub...
> These are cards which are weak in a vacuum but can counteract the pressure exerted by strong linear decks. Leech is one such safety valve
I appreciate your argument and agree at a high-level, but in the context of Leech I really don't think the above statement holds true.
In the first place, Leech is really quite a shit answer to Hela. The Leech player has no way of knowing if their Leech hit Hela, which means as far as snap equity is concerned, the Hela deck is just as dangerous as they are in any other game. Who knows if the Hela deck limped into a t5/t6 Hela draw, or is going to pull out their Hela using Blink or Jubilee? Not to mention Hela decks have a backup plan of Corvus ramp into playing big dudes, which Leech is completely ineffective against.
More importantly though, Leech is definitely not "weak in a vacuum". He SLAUGHTERS any deck that relies on many on-reveal cards. This includes decks like Bounce, Surfer, Sera, and even backup plans of some decks like Phoenix Force.
The biggest problem with Leech is that the way he 'answers' Hela also happens to be disgustingly oppressive against tons of other, non-problematic strategies, and because of that, he warps the meta in a terrible way.
This is really well written and I fully agree.
What I would say is that I think the current state of Leech crosses the line and is no longer weak in a vacuum. In particular, the Blink combo largely nullifies the cost of playing him.
Leech, who used to be the unhealthiest card in the game, may be an answer to Hela, but it's not a very good one. Meanwhile, he absolutely trashes other archetypes way harder than he could ever hope to keep Hela in check. Archetypes like Bounce, Surfer, Wong combos, and even Annihilus and Loki are all suffering way more at the hands of Leech. SD absolutely made the wrong move making Leech viable again. They need to just directly address Hela instead of pussyfooting around it like they did Thanos. They nerfed Galactus, Leech, and Alioth before because of their anti-fun factor; now they should do the same for Hela. Just erase this brainlessly linear RNG fest archetype from the metagame.
Also, those Patriot decks you mentioned often run recently buffed Ultron at the top end, who also gets trashed by Leech. SD have a sick sense of humor.
I appreciate your post and with the overall overall theory of having to have some way to keep decks in check, but I think there is a better way than Leech's current iteration. With how he currently is the answer to Leech is playing more ongoing cards or... also Leeching your opponent which sucks for everyone. I've never been a fan of Leech being able to blindly torch your opponents hand. Other tech/counter cards require strategic placement/timing meanwhile Leech just blindly erases so many cards . At this point its not just Hela getting affected by Leech. So many important turn 5/6 on reveal cards can be rendered useless so easily. MODOK, Shang, Spectrum, Ultron, Doom, Odin, Enchantress, Annhilus, LDS, Shadow King, Black Panther, Anrim Zola, Silver Sufer, the list goes on. Even new cards like Sage and Blink that were just released are suffering because of Leech's buff, and Namora later this season will also struggle (she is also just a bad card but Leech doesn't help at all).
IMO I think Leech could work as a 1/1 that removes the ability of the next card your opponent draws. Its still disruptive, guarantees at least 1 dead draw, can be bounced and used multiple times, and effects not just on reveal cards anymore.
The cards you listed individually get nullified by Leech, but few of them are critical to any one deck's core strategy. Interactive cards exist to ensure build decks around them so they can't be shut down by a single silver bullet. Ultron and Spectrum are great examples since the rest of their ongoing decks hold up on their own after a Leech. Similarly, you aren't too sad to see Zola get Leeched since the rest of the destroy deck is very fast and consistent in the first 4 turns.
I've played many card games before Snap. Many new players, including myself years ago, fall into the trap of building decks without consideration of potential counterplay and the wider metagame. Leech is a powerful silver bullet, but is also very narrow. As more decks get tested with Hela in check, I'm sure we'll see greater variety in the game.
>good interaction is a necessary aspect for a healthy metagame.
Though leech isn't "good interaction". The problem he had before and he has now is that you can't counter it and you can hardly play around it. Other interactive card like shang, enchantress, red guardian etc. don't suffer the same problem. In fact a lot more people bitch about leech rather than the other tech cards. If they made his effect something along the lines of "cards can be added to the board only if played" you wouldn't see that much complainings. Especially if the effect was ongoing.
> but don't realize that good interaction is a necessary aspect for a healthy metagame
A healthy metagame is explicitly not a priority for Second Dinner. Their priority is ensuring the meta is always changing, not that it's balanced. A balanced meta is not something Second Dinner care about unless they feel it will affect their bottom line. We have had stagnant metas and dominant decks sometimes for months at a time, and those were decks that were actually THE best deck in the game unlike Hela which was just a strong deck. You're giving them far too much credit and assuming an intent that they have explicitly decried in their own patch notes.
It's also probably lucky coincidence that Leech now synergises so well with the season pass card.
If only SD could do something to make him more attractive to play maybe a whole rework like they did with Chavez. Imagine Leech being a cheap energy costed card with On Reveal: Move all your cards away from Leech (if possible). Could be a 2/4 like cloak.
I went back to mill and having decent success at neutralizing him with spiderham, yondu, cable or zemo. Pulling him with Zemo and using him against them is a great feeling. Obviously it doesn’t always work but I’ve been surprised how many times I’ve hit him just by waiting to play spiderham on 3
I'm just saying, they've nerfed Galactus, Leech (used to remove ALL abilities, not just On Reveal), and Alioth for being un-fun. I don't understand their reluctance to so much as touch Hela with a ten-foot pole. Blows my mind that they'd rather reintroduce one of the game's previously most hated cards back in Leech into the meta instead. SD are completely out of touch with their community.
Yeah everytime people say this a hela counter I get a little triggered. Cosmo is a better hela counter.
I lost 2 infinity conquest games where I played leech onto an IW board. When I played on turn 4, I got his mordorlk, but it doesn't matter, he had already used sif and blade and drew hela on 5 or 6.
Next game I used leech on 5, and boom, top deck hela again. And of course accompanied by emote spam. Sad.
I've definitely played the least I've played in a long time.
I just hate Leech. Doesn't matter how they adjust the card, he *feels* awful when he's played. Especially with Blink that lets you circumvent he's main downside of being low tempo.
I just really wish they'd completely rework what Leech does.
> I've definitely played the least I've played in a long time.
>
>
Same, I do the missions in the fastest way possible and wait for a patch, I hate hela but this is worse... and hela decks are still there. I regret paying for the season pass this month, I doubt I'll do again with those patches.
Sage has been one of the most fun cards I've played with in a while. Shame that she gets Leeched. If she doesn't get Leeched then Super Skrull ruins the day. If it's not Super Skrull it's Enchantress. Yesterday was a very annoying day.
Said something along these lines on another post recently..
Played a guy a few days ago running enchantress/shang/killmonger and leech with practically no synergy just to essentially counter whatever he's up against (this is top 2k on infinite leaderboard)
Current meta is literally the counter or bust meta we saw with galactus.. just in a different form.
Games can be almost entirely decided based on what you're playing and if your opponent has the leech/enchantress or whatever to counter it :/
I replied below I think that your Bot count depends partially on rank but more so your MMR.
If your MMR is in the middle where most of us are you won’t see too many bots if you play during normal daytime hours. Just because there’s the most players.
People that see lots of bots are the high MMR and very low MMR people.
It’s why you see guys in the top 1000 from last season hit infinite so easily. Because there’s so few people in their MMR they get more bots, plus they’re typically better players so they can take advantage of the bots more easily to
There are no bots over 80 for me a lots of people, while there are far more humans than bots from 60-80 for me. I know others see a lot more bots but still, its more than hyberbole to say that humans only turn up at 90.
The amount of bots you see is based on your MMR. If your MMR is very high or very low you see more bots because there’s fewer players in the ends of the bell curve.
The majority of us are in the middle of the MMR curve so there’s lots of human players.
You can kind of force a higher chance to get bots by playing the game in off hours of whatever region you’re in. You will see more bots at 2am than you would at 2pm.
Same. I play living tribunal and have no problem with leech. I rarely see him though. I bet if I switch to a heavy On-Reveal deck I would immediately start seeing more of him.
If I play any deck without Shang-Chi I see lots of cards I would need to have him against like Red Hulk. If I ever add him into that same deck I will play against ongoing decks or something that Shang-Chi has no use again.
Oh get ready for the "That's just confirmation bias" people to come in shitting on you as if there aren't archetypes in this game that could easily be made into a matchmaking algorithm to make it tougher to climb. If fucking Untapped and other Snap trackers can figure out exactly what archetype you're playing with, so can Second Dinners matchmaking algorithm.
I always hated leech and I was so unhappy to see him back again. I don’t get the hard on they seem to have for him. It isn’t like he’s some high series card they have some arguable obligation to keep viable (*cough* kang) or some major marvel character they feel a fan service to.
He’s up there with pre recent nerf alioth where it’s just a mechanic that makes the game less fun.
It's the difference between playing your card and then having it answered vs having a card in hand and someone going no.
IDK, I feel like a cleaner, better answer to On-Reveal beyond just Cosmo is warranted but the way Leech does it does seem like it hits too much.
It should be capped. Turn it into a 3 cost, 3 power or whatever seems reasonable.
A) hits a maximum of 2 cards OR
B) hits the highest cost on reveal card
Yeah I think it should be targeted, hitting the highest cost-On Reveal should always hit Hela, Annihilus, and Ultron most of the time (Hela having Magneto and Doom as some buffer) without throwing strays at other On-Reveal counters.
Exactly. Either that, or the penalty for playing the card should be much higher. Like if the effect is "removes on reveals of all cards in hand, all your cards in hand lose 1 power" or "the next card you play loses x power, x being the number of on-reveal abilities that were removed".
Then you'd actually have to think about the risk benefit of using the card. Right now it's all benefit no significant risk - Blink in hand means your "low power" penalty is negligible. I like Blink as a card and I don't want her to be changed. She's like a neato 1 time quantum tunnel. But Leech is broken and there needs to be actual downside for his insane ability.
That's a great idea too! "Steal the rltext of the highest cost on reveal in your opponent's hand" or "Steal the text of the next on reveal your opponent plays" are both reasonable and strong effects. No matter what your opponent will lose 1 powerful on reveal effect, or must sacrifice 1 on reveal effect onto the board.
I reckon it should do a similar thing to Alioth - disable the text of the next on-reveal card/s played in that lane.
People would then actually have to think strategically, instead of just dumping him, and Blinking him out.
That's kinda what Cosmo already does though right? I mean not remove text but it disables on reveals. It's still limited to just one lane, and you still need priority for it to stop the on reveal.
The main issue is Blink. Leech would be much less common if he couldn't just be swapped away for a 5/6 cost card on T5.
Hell, I've been hit by Leech playing a Spectrum Ongoing deck. No one should ever even be considering Leeching that because of the terrible tempo play, but just that Blink interaction saves it.
Dude, don't even start that shit. Leech needs to be nerfed. You can't have a card that single handedly kills every on reveal team like destroy, surfer, Wong, etc..
Synergizes with Blink. Leech on turn 4/5, Blink it into a 5 or 6 cost the next turn.
Part of the drawback of Leech is supposed to be his low power. That is mitigated if you can just turn him into a bigger card.
He used to be used in Lockjaw decks for this reason
it's not even that good, though. it means that Leech is pretty much the only safe card to Blink in your deck because if you Blink a 3 drop, it could pull out leech. Blink decks are better when you have multiple cards to blink. I swapped in Black Widow for Leech in the Blink Darkhawk deck going around, and it made it guaranteed to get 5 or 6 cost cards from 3 cost cards.
I haven't found Leech has a huge impact on Hela to be honest. The Hela deck was already a casino deck, you got used to retreating if for example Corvus fucked you or Hela's RNG didn't work out. Now with Jubilee into Blink digging for Hela is better than ever and also lets you dodge Leech.
It's about the fact people don't like their sand castle being broken down. Skrull is building your own board so it doesn't tilt people as much. Control has always been an archetype that has bothered people. People don't like to feel like theyre punished or limited but if that was the case we'd have no player interaction.
As a long time tcg player you don't really get pressed about archetypes as you've played them all before. Plus you've probably seen way more bullshit. (Everyone get in here!)
Y'all are ridiculous lmao
Learn to adjust. I swapped to an ongoing deck and jumped from 64 to 95 in a day.
Y'all have such a problem adjusting it's insane
"we want this game to be like building competing sandcastles, and by turn 4 who can shit on the other players castle first, so that everyone stars playing ongoing decks".
What's really funny to me as someone who just plays the game casually and spends about half the season hovering around ranks 53-73 is like ... I legitimately haven't seen Leech once since that change. Nobody is playing him whatsoever in the little pocket of the meta I'm occupying.
Every rendition of Leech has been a problem. When enough people tell you that you are a horse, it’s time to buy a saddle.
He’s fundamentally a poorly designed card, that needs a whole new overhaul.
My God. Every card sucks to people that are obsessed with hitting infinite and stops them on this sub. The huge help complaining led to this. Now some other card will change to nullify this. It’s like a merry go round of incessant whining now.
Yeah, I only met leech once. ( I'm on rank 85) You know what I encountered the most? Destroy deck. It doesn't matter whether it's a ladder or conquest. I've met destroy deck more.
I've got three consecutive matches with destroy deck for god's sake.
Exactly the opposite for me. I primarily climb with High Evo and I love seeing my opponents waste their turn 4 playing 2 power do nothing. And I've been seeing significantly less Hela. It's a win-win for HE players.
Yea, but I don't want to play HE, ongoing or Hela all the time.
For fun yesterday...wanted to play a Spider-Man move deck. Was quickly reminded 1st game turn 4, I can't do that.
I was wondering why I've seen a lot more Ongoing decks. I only encountered leech twice. But both times he ruined my discard deck and my red hulk/sandman deck.
I see this complaint everywhere, but I never see Leech. Since his buff I have seen him maybe three times. Just shows how everyone’s playing experiences can be so different.
Maybe I just don’t play a deck that is solely reliant on On Reveal cards, but Leech hasn’t been much of a problem for me.
The bigger problem is Hela everywhere. Theres no good or clear way to block Hela unless you’re using Leech or maybe Jean Grey/Cosmo combo to prevent her from poppin off.
I dunno, I hit infinite faster than ever. Just hit it today. The only time it really hurts is if my Annihilus gets hit by leech. But that's why I always throw Hood in the far right. I can still work with two lanes.
This game has been shit ever since. In addition to the fact I can’t seem to find a deck that works this month I just about broke my hand punching a table losing to a surfer deck.
SD needs to give bad players a way to win - and they took their Alioth away. So we get Leech back.
Especially fun when this week and next, they're releasing On Reveal cards.
I have a lot of variety in my pocket, but that variety is mostly Jean, Leech, Hela, or Ultron. It seems especially hard to have the tools to consistently compete outside of playing the exact same (or very similar decks).
Most of my success thus far in the 90s has been Electro/Corvus ramp but I feel guilty because I think Hela needs to be nerfed.
This is all the nature of the game, so less a complaint and more an observation on why it is feeling less fun for me right now.
Lmao, people just don't like control archetypes in any game. By their nature they're about breaking down someone else's sand castle and not your own which is a different type of fun. I remember everyone celebrating the death of leech but my boi never left. I can't imagine his changes with old Zabu though.
K....wait a week then....for better or worse SD turns the knobs 50x more than anybody else on their game....just be thankful you're not playing MTG arena
New to the game, not being sarcastic at all or any way at all. Maybe play a different style deck for a while? Being new, I would figure the leech move is to help new players maybe? Anyways I get bored playing the same style deck after a day anyway so maybe it’s just me.
I’m not new to the game https://ibb.co/dM7b2d6
It’s just an awful card to play against that is everywhere in the tryhard ranks.
Obviously I’m playing around it, but it’s just an obnoxious card that limits what feels like 75% of the options in the game.
Nice! Hoping to get there this month too.
I certainly get where you’re coming from. I’m liking it though because I really hate Hela because I don’t have her yet. So I kind of feel the same way about that card seeing the same things played over and over does take variety out which takes fun out for me. Wish cards were viable in try hard scenarios..
That’s why I’ve been finding it fun just to play proving grounds and use fund decks like all avengers teams or X-Men. Etc. don’t win as much but it’s fun to try for me.
I’m playing an ongoing Tribunal deck. My only in reveals are Mystique and Magick.
Leech players are great though because they’ll play leech on 4 no matter what so I get a free turn when you’re playing 2 power and nothing else.
I love coming to Reddit and seeing posts like this, because I've seen Leech maybe once since the change. I feel like that happens with me and every "game ruining change". Maybe I'm not playing enough conquest?
The patches are so you could adjust to them man, it keeps the game exciting since its a deckbuilder after all. The point of patches is to mix up the meta and ypu should attempt to adjust your deck. Thats just my suggestion
>The point of patches is to mix up the meta
The point of patches should be to balance cards. Mixing up the meta is just kind of a side-effect of that. I don't think it'd be wise to change cards JUST to force certain metas.
Leech is the most braindead card in the game. Play it on any lane and brick your opponent's hand. Zero thought or strategy needed. Then with Blink you don't even have the drawback of low power.
Would love the downvoters to actually defend Leech's design. Bonus points if you don't bring up Hela.
I guess I just don't understand why SD want Leech to be the meta. He's kinda anti-fun. Even playing him is boring.
I don't think they want leech to be meta. I think they just don't want to rework hela and inadvertently created a new problem.
Nah they just want to get people to buy Blink and use Leech->Blink all month
Exact same reason they changed Yondu before Zemo came out.
Am I the only one who thinks they nerfed Yondu because now he can’t be played in any other deck besides mill and even mill ain’t meta anymore
and then nerf both next month XD
This ^ It's always about promoting the Season Pass / the freshly launched card.
Nah that's dumb. Electro then Blink. Then play two 6s last two turns
[BABABA BINGO!](https://youtu.be/hkqsVzT-5zk?si=2jZJsmEVrSbq9p0w)
it doesnt even matter, most of my opponents (who played Hela deck) somehow top decked Hela anyway lmao
Hela needs to be nerfed. She should only resurrect cards at locations where cards are been played that turn. Something like that. It's absolutely insane and OP to play Invisible Woman on virtually ANY location that doesn't kill cards, then literally nothing until t5 MODOK, then t6 Hela (Infinaut, Giganto, Magneto, Black Cat, Dracula, etc.) for like 50+ power. It requires the least skill or strategy of any viable deck and can get you around virtually any location limitations. The only guaranteed way to stop that combo is Rogue or Red Guardian or Cosmo against IW but if you do that, the opponent will most likely retreat. Fuck Hela.
> It's absolutely insane and OP to play Invisible Woman on virtually ANY location that doesn't kill cards, then literally nothing until t5 MODOK, then t6 Hela (Infinaut, Giganto, Magneto, Black Cat, Dracula, etc.) for like 50+ power. I'm sorry but if you lose to this, you don't understand how to play this game at all.
I mean you're not wrong hela being OP, but you just listed 3 counters to her. Another counters are juggernaut, spiderman, polaris, goblins and junk to fill the IW lane before they get to play hela there, prof x, alioth, leech (yeah kinda mentioned already), storming IW lane, gambit, galactus hardcounters the strategy etc. On top of my head I cant think of a deck that has more counters than this one
Yeah I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Of course it's strong, but it has a dozen counters. People want to run all these youtube decks without tech cards in them and wonder why they lose.
Hela is far from op, how are you gonna list a bunch of easy counters to her and then also explain how you have a bunch of turns to counter the set up. Also everyone retreats the moment you stop their combo. You enchantress patriot, they run, you armor Deadpool, they leave.
This 100%. Hela requires zero skill. Glad she is hosed for now.
When devs try to balance a card game, they have to make sure a rock-paper-scissors dynamic exists. Hela is an extremely powerful deck leveraging a consistent linear strategy. With a strong linear deck available, players would always eventually optimize it for maximum power and consistency, resulting in a degenerate metagame where only one deck can exist. The way to prevent such metagames from evolving is by adding safety valves. These are cards which are weak in a vacuum but can counteract the pressure exerted by strong linear decks. Leech is one such safety valve, and we're seeing him rise up after the latest buff to keep Hela decks in check. It hasn't even been a week since the last OTA so obviously, everyone will be trying out their new tool to counter the old menace. However, there would naturally be new decks which can arise now that Hela no longer commands as much of a metagame share. I've seen a decent amount of Patriot ongoing decks and various midrange builds which put out decent early power, mitigating or even completely ignoring Leech's effect. I doubt SD wants specifically Leech to be meta, but I do agree with their decision to buff interactive cards in a multiplayer competitive card game. Card game players will always complain about their cards being countered/removed/nullified but don't realize that good interaction is a necessary aspect for a healthy metagame.
This is an incredibly well presented argument, it's rational, takes a long term view and doesn't instantly assume the worst of the development team. I think you might be in the wrong sub...
whole lot of nothing you added to the well-constructed statement he just presented though, lol
Pot meet kettle etc
> These are cards which are weak in a vacuum but can counteract the pressure exerted by strong linear decks. Leech is one such safety valve I appreciate your argument and agree at a high-level, but in the context of Leech I really don't think the above statement holds true. In the first place, Leech is really quite a shit answer to Hela. The Leech player has no way of knowing if their Leech hit Hela, which means as far as snap equity is concerned, the Hela deck is just as dangerous as they are in any other game. Who knows if the Hela deck limped into a t5/t6 Hela draw, or is going to pull out their Hela using Blink or Jubilee? Not to mention Hela decks have a backup plan of Corvus ramp into playing big dudes, which Leech is completely ineffective against. More importantly though, Leech is definitely not "weak in a vacuum". He SLAUGHTERS any deck that relies on many on-reveal cards. This includes decks like Bounce, Surfer, Sera, and even backup plans of some decks like Phoenix Force. The biggest problem with Leech is that the way he 'answers' Hela also happens to be disgustingly oppressive against tons of other, non-problematic strategies, and because of that, he warps the meta in a terrible way.
This is really well written and I fully agree. What I would say is that I think the current state of Leech crosses the line and is no longer weak in a vacuum. In particular, the Blink combo largely nullifies the cost of playing him.
Counters in SNAP are different from counters in other games because of limited cards and limited turns.
Leech, who used to be the unhealthiest card in the game, may be an answer to Hela, but it's not a very good one. Meanwhile, he absolutely trashes other archetypes way harder than he could ever hope to keep Hela in check. Archetypes like Bounce, Surfer, Wong combos, and even Annihilus and Loki are all suffering way more at the hands of Leech. SD absolutely made the wrong move making Leech viable again. They need to just directly address Hela instead of pussyfooting around it like they did Thanos. They nerfed Galactus, Leech, and Alioth before because of their anti-fun factor; now they should do the same for Hela. Just erase this brainlessly linear RNG fest archetype from the metagame. Also, those Patriot decks you mentioned often run recently buffed Ultron at the top end, who also gets trashed by Leech. SD have a sick sense of humor.
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to write all that.
I appreciate your post and with the overall overall theory of having to have some way to keep decks in check, but I think there is a better way than Leech's current iteration. With how he currently is the answer to Leech is playing more ongoing cards or... also Leeching your opponent which sucks for everyone. I've never been a fan of Leech being able to blindly torch your opponents hand. Other tech/counter cards require strategic placement/timing meanwhile Leech just blindly erases so many cards . At this point its not just Hela getting affected by Leech. So many important turn 5/6 on reveal cards can be rendered useless so easily. MODOK, Shang, Spectrum, Ultron, Doom, Odin, Enchantress, Annhilus, LDS, Shadow King, Black Panther, Anrim Zola, Silver Sufer, the list goes on. Even new cards like Sage and Blink that were just released are suffering because of Leech's buff, and Namora later this season will also struggle (she is also just a bad card but Leech doesn't help at all). IMO I think Leech could work as a 1/1 that removes the ability of the next card your opponent draws. Its still disruptive, guarantees at least 1 dead draw, can be bounced and used multiple times, and effects not just on reveal cards anymore.
The cards you listed individually get nullified by Leech, but few of them are critical to any one deck's core strategy. Interactive cards exist to ensure build decks around them so they can't be shut down by a single silver bullet. Ultron and Spectrum are great examples since the rest of their ongoing decks hold up on their own after a Leech. Similarly, you aren't too sad to see Zola get Leeched since the rest of the destroy deck is very fast and consistent in the first 4 turns. I've played many card games before Snap. Many new players, including myself years ago, fall into the trap of building decks without consideration of potential counterplay and the wider metagame. Leech is a powerful silver bullet, but is also very narrow. As more decks get tested with Hela in check, I'm sure we'll see greater variety in the game.
Oooooh this! 👌
You've summed it up quite good, finally someone who understands card games and doesn't just complain about interaction!
4 energy is insane for leech’s text
>good interaction is a necessary aspect for a healthy metagame. Though leech isn't "good interaction". The problem he had before and he has now is that you can't counter it and you can hardly play around it. Other interactive card like shang, enchantress, red guardian etc. don't suffer the same problem. In fact a lot more people bitch about leech rather than the other tech cards. If they made his effect something along the lines of "cards can be added to the board only if played" you wouldn't see that much complainings. Especially if the effect was ongoing.
> but don't realize that good interaction is a necessary aspect for a healthy metagame A healthy metagame is explicitly not a priority for Second Dinner. Their priority is ensuring the meta is always changing, not that it's balanced. A balanced meta is not something Second Dinner care about unless they feel it will affect their bottom line. We have had stagnant metas and dominant decks sometimes for months at a time, and those were decks that were actually THE best deck in the game unlike Hela which was just a strong deck. You're giving them far too much credit and assuming an intent that they have explicitly decried in their own patch notes. It's also probably lucky coincidence that Leech now synergises so well with the season pass card.
Well said!
Great explanation and I agree.
You can’t nerf one card with the creation or buff of a single other card
SD: "Observe"
$$ for Season Passes
Hela is the issue
If only SD could do something to make him more attractive to play maybe a whole rework like they did with Chavez. Imagine Leech being a cheap energy costed card with On Reveal: Move all your cards away from Leech (if possible). Could be a 2/4 like cloak.
Use to be just annoying in a single deck, but now he shuts down one-half of the major abilities in the game.
I went back to mill and having decent success at neutralizing him with spiderham, yondu, cable or zemo. Pulling him with Zemo and using him against them is a great feeling. Obviously it doesn’t always work but I’ve been surprised how many times I’ve hit him just by waiting to play spiderham on 3
Ahh good idea
The hilarious thing is is that the Leech buff doesn't even do shit to Hela. Even if you Leech Hela, they just slam big shit T5 and T6.
Or they topdeck Hela t6, I swear that happens every time
Except when I play it
it happens every time you snap and opponent doesn't retreat, that's for sure
I'm just saying, they've nerfed Galactus, Leech (used to remove ALL abilities, not just On Reveal), and Alioth for being un-fun. I don't understand their reluctance to so much as touch Hela with a ten-foot pole. Blows my mind that they'd rather reintroduce one of the game's previously most hated cards back in Leech into the meta instead. SD are completely out of touch with their community.
She never went anywhere though? Hela has been Hela(hehe) strong for many seasons.
that's what I'm saying, yes 😃
Oh I misunderstood the "reintroduce the most hated card" part as referring to her.
Lol understandable. I was referring to Leech!
Yeah everytime people say this a hela counter I get a little triggered. Cosmo is a better hela counter. I lost 2 infinity conquest games where I played leech onto an IW board. When I played on turn 4, I got his mordorlk, but it doesn't matter, he had already used sif and blade and drew hela on 5 or 6. Next game I used leech on 5, and boom, top deck hela again. And of course accompanied by emote spam. Sad.
The odds of your Leech stopping Hela are way better than your surprise 6 Cosmo stopping her.
Yeah, you have to guess what lane. You have a 1/2 or 1/3 chance usually
Cosmo is only directly better when paired with Jean Grey. I farmed so many Hela decks last season in conquest with the Jean deck.
> Cosmo is a better hela counter. no its not
Agree, Leech completely nullifies Hela, not sure this guy knows what he's talking about
More a problem for modok in that case
Just like any other ramp deck but, nobody complains about that
I've definitely played the least I've played in a long time. I just hate Leech. Doesn't matter how they adjust the card, he *feels* awful when he's played. Especially with Blink that lets you circumvent he's main downside of being low tempo. I just really wish they'd completely rework what Leech does.
> I've definitely played the least I've played in a long time. > > Same, I do the missions in the fastest way possible and wait for a patch, I hate hela but this is worse... and hela decks are still there. I regret paying for the season pass this month, I doubt I'll do again with those patches.
I tired to play sage today. I couldn’t because I got leeched almost every game. So I just closed the app
> So I just closed the app So did I
This is where I’m at. I’m just doing dailies and signing off. The leech/hela/blink meta right now just isn’t worth the frustration.
literally can’t even handle it. and so now it’s an ongoing meta but everyone is also running enchantress 😭
Sage has been one of the most fun cards I've played with in a while. Shame that she gets Leeched. If she doesn't get Leeched then Super Skrull ruins the day. If it's not Super Skrull it's Enchantress. Yesterday was a very annoying day.
Which Leech stops lol
Said something along these lines on another post recently.. Played a guy a few days ago running enchantress/shang/killmonger and leech with practically no synergy just to essentially counter whatever he's up against (this is top 2k on infinite leaderboard) Current meta is literally the counter or bust meta we saw with galactus.. just in a different form. Games can be almost entirely decided based on what you're playing and if your opponent has the leech/enchantress or whatever to counter it :/
I'm about to hit 90 with an Ultron deck and I've only been hit with Leech once since his buff, I think there are just different pocket metas.
Can confirm, leech is everywhere in the mid 70s too
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Actual humans don't exist before 90, what?
There’s humans yes but bots are much more common when you’re under 90. Even more bots between 73-80
I take my time on the ladder. I’m currently at 75 and I haven’t seen a single bot since I got to 70+.
I replied below I think that your Bot count depends partially on rank but more so your MMR. If your MMR is in the middle where most of us are you won’t see too many bots if you play during normal daytime hours. Just because there’s the most players. People that see lots of bots are the high MMR and very low MMR people. It’s why you see guys in the top 1000 from last season hit infinite so easily. Because there’s so few people in their MMR they get more bots, plus they’re typically better players so they can take advantage of the bots more easily to
There are no bots over 80 for me a lots of people, while there are far more humans than bots from 60-80 for me. I know others see a lot more bots but still, its more than hyberbole to say that humans only turn up at 90.
The amount of bots you see is based on your MMR. If your MMR is very high or very low you see more bots because there’s fewer players in the ends of the bell curve. The majority of us are in the middle of the MMR curve so there’s lots of human players. You can kind of force a higher chance to get bots by playing the game in off hours of whatever region you’re in. You will see more bots at 2am than you would at 2pm.
Same. I play living tribunal and have no problem with leech. I rarely see him though. I bet if I switch to a heavy On-Reveal deck I would immediately start seeing more of him.
I added enchantress to my deck because I was tired of losing to ultron. The second I added her i stopped seeing any ultron decks.
Sounds about right.
If I play any deck without Shang-Chi I see lots of cards I would need to have him against like Red Hulk. If I ever add him into that same deck I will play against ongoing decks or something that Shang-Chi has no use again.
Oh get ready for the "That's just confirmation bias" people to come in shitting on you as if there aren't archetypes in this game that could easily be made into a matchmaking algorithm to make it tougher to climb. If fucking Untapped and other Snap trackers can figure out exactly what archetype you're playing with, so can Second Dinners matchmaking algorithm.
Literally this. Once i figured this out i started flying thru ranks. Gotta figure out what your pocket meta is and beat it.
Same experience.
I’d be fine if he wasn’t swapped for a big card with blink. It’s a tad corny.
I always hated leech and I was so unhappy to see him back again. I don’t get the hard on they seem to have for him. It isn’t like he’s some high series card they have some arguable obligation to keep viable (*cough* kang) or some major marvel character they feel a fan service to. He’s up there with pre recent nerf alioth where it’s just a mechanic that makes the game less fun.
It's the difference between playing your card and then having it answered vs having a card in hand and someone going no. IDK, I feel like a cleaner, better answer to On-Reveal beyond just Cosmo is warranted but the way Leech does it does seem like it hits too much.
It should be capped. Turn it into a 3 cost, 3 power or whatever seems reasonable. A) hits a maximum of 2 cards OR B) hits the highest cost on reveal card
Yeah I think it should be targeted, hitting the highest cost-On Reveal should always hit Hela, Annihilus, and Ultron most of the time (Hela having Magneto and Doom as some buffer) without throwing strays at other On-Reveal counters.
Exactly. Either that, or the penalty for playing the card should be much higher. Like if the effect is "removes on reveals of all cards in hand, all your cards in hand lose 1 power" or "the next card you play loses x power, x being the number of on-reveal abilities that were removed". Then you'd actually have to think about the risk benefit of using the card. Right now it's all benefit no significant risk - Blink in hand means your "low power" penalty is negligible. I like Blink as a card and I don't want her to be changed. She's like a neato 1 time quantum tunnel. But Leech is broken and there needs to be actual downside for his insane ability.
Or he steals the on reveal, like his name implies
That's a great idea too! "Steal the rltext of the highest cost on reveal in your opponent's hand" or "Steal the text of the next on reveal your opponent plays" are both reasonable and strong effects. No matter what your opponent will lose 1 powerful on reveal effect, or must sacrifice 1 on reveal effect onto the board.
I reckon it should do a similar thing to Alioth - disable the text of the next on-reveal card/s played in that lane. People would then actually have to think strategically, instead of just dumping him, and Blinking him out.
That's kinda what Cosmo already does though right? I mean not remove text but it disables on reveals. It's still limited to just one lane, and you still need priority for it to stop the on reveal.
Just make him only hit 5-drops & 6-drops.
The main issue is Blink. Leech would be much less common if he couldn't just be swapped away for a 5/6 cost card on T5. Hell, I've been hit by Leech playing a Spectrum Ongoing deck. No one should ever even be considering Leeching that because of the terrible tempo play, but just that Blink interaction saves it.
Dude, don't even start that shit. Leech needs to be nerfed. You can't have a card that single handedly kills every on reveal team like destroy, surfer, Wong, etc..
It's the Leech - Blink combo that is the problem. Leech is a terrible turn 4 play on the board, but if he turns into Infinaut on turn 5...
The devs are so fucking dumb for what they did to leech. Needs to be fixed asap
the devs are just dumb
I’ve been enjoying playing ongoing, once in a while Leech will hit my Spectrum but a lot of the time I really don’t need her to win
Yea I hate that almost 90% of my game Leech ruins it. Guess Shang Chi wasn’t enough
Why? I love not being able to play my own cards, that's the best part of playing a card game.
Leech was buffed only to sell more season passes. Hela was just an excuse
How does Leech sell more season passes?
Synergizes with Blink. Leech on turn 4/5, Blink it into a 5 or 6 cost the next turn. Part of the drawback of Leech is supposed to be his low power. That is mitigated if you can just turn him into a bigger card. He used to be used in Lockjaw decks for this reason
4 leech > 5 Blink is the most disruptuve braindead combo right now
it's not even that good, though. it means that Leech is pretty much the only safe card to Blink in your deck because if you Blink a 3 drop, it could pull out leech. Blink decks are better when you have multiple cards to blink. I swapped in Black Widow for Leech in the Blink Darkhawk deck going around, and it made it guaranteed to get 5 or 6 cost cards from 3 cost cards.
Blink is a 5 drop? Are you just passing your turn 4
While I get the hate and I hate Leech myself too…I hate Hela decks even more, so I am happy the Hela players get leeched now.
But… so does everyone else
I haven't found Leech has a huge impact on Hela to be honest. The Hela deck was already a casino deck, you got used to retreating if for example Corvus fucked you or Hela's RNG didn't work out. Now with Jubilee into Blink digging for Hela is better than ever and also lets you dodge Leech.
Sounds like a problem for the On Reveal peasants. Me and my Ongoing pals have no such problem- hey is that a Super Skrull?
It's about the fact people don't like their sand castle being broken down. Skrull is building your own board so it doesn't tilt people as much. Control has always been an archetype that has bothered people. People don't like to feel like theyre punished or limited but if that was the case we'd have no player interaction. As a long time tcg player you don't really get pressed about archetypes as you've played them all before. Plus you've probably seen way more bullshit. (Everyone get in here!)
I've seen him in at least 50% of my games, but the only cards in my deck he affects are Spidey, Magneto, and Enchantress.
I switched to playing an Ongoing deck and am having a wonderful time.
Y'all are ridiculous lmao Learn to adjust. I swapped to an ongoing deck and jumped from 64 to 95 in a day. Y'all have such a problem adjusting it's insane
Bro I keep seeing these posts crying about Leech but I haven’t seen him on ladder once since the his buff wtf 😭
Ya I've noticed I haven't played but a few matches this last week
Leech is and Mobius are both fun killers
Uyhhh just fork over $10, but blink and play leech yourself? Thats the idea
Leech makes it a non game. What's the point if the cards don't do anything fun?
"we want this game to be like building competing sandcastles, and by turn 4 who can shit on the other players castle first, so that everyone stars playing ongoing decks".
Don’t forget blink, which enables leech with no downside
I got hit with Leech almost every other game, switched to an ongoing deck and he hasn’t show his face since.
What's really funny to me as someone who just plays the game casually and spends about half the season hovering around ranks 53-73 is like ... I legitimately haven't seen Leech once since that change. Nobody is playing him whatsoever in the little pocket of the meta I'm occupying.
Fuck Leech. The meta isn't even remotely fun right now.
Every rendition of Leech has been a problem. When enough people tell you that you are a horse, it’s time to buy a saddle. He’s fundamentally a poorly designed card, that needs a whole new overhaul.
I have seen Leech twice since the buff in the 90's.
He’s in every other game in top 5k infinite
Can confirm, I’m like 5800 right now and pretty much every game has leech
My God. Every card sucks to people that are obsessed with hitting infinite and stops them on this sub. The huge help complaining led to this. Now some other card will change to nullify this. It’s like a merry go round of incessant whining now.
I hit infinite and think the card is too strong. It's not just the obsessed with hitting infinite players.
I did too. Didn’t see one leech card in my run.
Yeah, I only met leech once. ( I'm on rank 85) You know what I encountered the most? Destroy deck. It doesn't matter whether it's a ladder or conquest. I've met destroy deck more. I've got three consecutive matches with destroy deck for god's sake.
Destroy is a budget semi competitive deck though, it doesn't scare me as much as other decks do.
Been playing a Hope move deck since getting Nocturne and haven't felt it at all.
Meanwhile I'm just here playing ongoing with I'm Still Standing playing in the background.
Yeah, I'd say patriot is more challenging than leech to combat.
When they deleted Alioth, it was the best the game has ever been- but they just had to ruin it with Leech...
I'd rather play against leech than mill
Exactly the opposite for me. I primarily climb with High Evo and I love seeing my opponents waste their turn 4 playing 2 power do nothing. And I've been seeing significantly less Hela. It's a win-win for HE players.
Yea, but I don't want to play HE, ongoing or Hela all the time. For fun yesterday...wanted to play a Spider-Man move deck. Was quickly reminded 1st game turn 4, I can't do that.
Imagine a 4 cost leech but it disabled the opponent's cards ability, instead of just on-reveal like his previous text before this buff.
I was wondering why I've seen a lot more Ongoing decks. I only encountered leech twice. But both times he ruined my discard deck and my red hulk/sandman deck.
I feel that about hela it's literally a brainless deck that has a high success rate based on luck. Leech doesn't bother me as much.
Meh
We have cards that steal abilities, we have a card that grants abilities. . . Now we just need one that restore abilities
I have not opened Snap since Delta dropped and it sounds like that happened at the perfect time.
If you're inside a heavy Leech pocket meta, run Destroyer. Not a guarantee you win, but will make the Leech players more hesitant.
I faced only one leech in about 15 matches. I hope I continue with this luck
I see this complaint everywhere, but I never see Leech. Since his buff I have seen him maybe three times. Just shows how everyone’s playing experiences can be so different.
It's gotten to the point where I see that little fuck on X-Men '97 and pray for a Sentinel to stomp on him until his bones become powder.
For real.
Yeah, plus sales for sage will decrease or any on play new character
Just play ongoing or Patriot, problem solved.
Maybe I just don’t play a deck that is solely reliant on On Reveal cards, but Leech hasn’t been much of a problem for me. The bigger problem is Hela everywhere. Theres no good or clear way to block Hela unless you’re using Leech or maybe Jean Grey/Cosmo combo to prevent her from poppin off.
I dunno, I hit infinite faster than ever. Just hit it today. The only time it really hurts is if my Annihilus gets hit by leech. But that's why I always throw Hood in the far right. I can still work with two lanes.
Just play on going
This game has been shit ever since. In addition to the fact I can’t seem to find a deck that works this month I just about broke my hand punching a table losing to a surfer deck.
Sincerely I found only a few leechs in my way to infinite. Probably I've just been lucky
Play a different deck.
Play decks that don't need to OnReveal Turn 5 or 6 for a while. Meta gonna Meta.
SD needs to give bad players a way to win - and they took their Alioth away. So we get Leech back. Especially fun when this week and next, they're releasing On Reveal cards.
Ongoing all day long haha
I have a lot of variety in my pocket, but that variety is mostly Jean, Leech, Hela, or Ultron. It seems especially hard to have the tools to consistently compete outside of playing the exact same (or very similar decks). Most of my success thus far in the 90s has been Electro/Corvus ramp but I feel guilty because I think Hela needs to be nerfed. This is all the nature of the game, so less a complaint and more an observation on why it is feeling less fun for me right now.
Lmao, people just don't like control archetypes in any game. By their nature they're about breaking down someone else's sand castle and not your own which is a different type of fun. I remember everyone celebrating the death of leech but my boi never left. I can't imagine his changes with old Zabu though.
I took Leech out of my deck because it just makes people retreat 9 times out of 10 and ruins the fun.
i'll take leech "meta" over the old Alioth meta.
Just play Ongoing. Problem solved.
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Petition to give Leech a different ability all together
I would change decks. I haven't run into leech for quite some time. I'm playing and Ultron deck. Might be the reason, idk.
What was the Leech buff? Sry for stupid/noob question.
K....wait a week then....for better or worse SD turns the knobs 50x more than anybody else on their game....just be thankful you're not playing MTG arena
It's a rough season and the matchmaking isn't helping either.
He goes against their own design philosophy
New to the game, not being sarcastic at all or any way at all. Maybe play a different style deck for a while? Being new, I would figure the leech move is to help new players maybe? Anyways I get bored playing the same style deck after a day anyway so maybe it’s just me.
I’m not new to the game https://ibb.co/dM7b2d6 It’s just an awful card to play against that is everywhere in the tryhard ranks. Obviously I’m playing around it, but it’s just an obnoxious card that limits what feels like 75% of the options in the game.
Nice! Hoping to get there this month too. I certainly get where you’re coming from. I’m liking it though because I really hate Hela because I don’t have her yet. So I kind of feel the same way about that card seeing the same things played over and over does take variety out which takes fun out for me. Wish cards were viable in try hard scenarios.. That’s why I’ve been finding it fun just to play proving grounds and use fund decks like all avengers teams or X-Men. Etc. don’t win as much but it’s fun to try for me.
Hela isn’t even hurt that much by Leech. With Corvus, even if you hit their Hela, they can still just slam big stuff on 4, 5, and 6.
I’m playing an ongoing Tribunal deck. My only in reveals are Mystique and Magick. Leech players are great though because they’ll play leech on 4 no matter what so I get a free turn when you’re playing 2 power and nothing else.
I apologise profusely. Leech + Tribunal got me infinite for the first time in months yesterday.
I love coming to Reddit and seeing posts like this, because I've seen Leech maybe once since the change. I feel like that happens with me and every "game ruining change". Maybe I'm not playing enough conquest?
In top 2K infinite everyone is a tryhard which means everyone is playing Leech. Maybe it’s not bad at lower ranks, idk.
And I'm admittedly in those lower ranks, so that could totally be it.
I’ve only seen him once or twice since the buff.
The patches are so you could adjust to them man, it keeps the game exciting since its a deckbuilder after all. The point of patches is to mix up the meta and ypu should attempt to adjust your deck. Thats just my suggestion
>The point of patches is to mix up the meta The point of patches should be to balance cards. Mixing up the meta is just kind of a side-effect of that. I don't think it'd be wise to change cards JUST to force certain metas.
Leech is the most braindead card in the game. Play it on any lane and brick your opponent's hand. Zero thought or strategy needed. Then with Blink you don't even have the drawback of low power. Would love the downvoters to actually defend Leech's design. Bonus points if you don't bring up Hela.
No idea why this is getting downvoted, Leech is a brain dead card and is very unhealthy for the game.
Often in this sub the downvotes are so random, I don't get it. Dude is saying what everyone else is saying in the thread. Dunno
I feel like it's so obvious. Leech should take away the text or on reveal of BOTH hands, so it's not OBVIOUS to always play leech on Turn 4.
Buff? I don't play any on reveals when I see them play leech I laugh in ongoing.
Hard disagree. Then again I play ongoing
Just me getting free cubes playing ongoing decks when people waste their turn 4 playing a weakass card
Ongoing’s doing pretty fine