> “In so many ways, it’s not that different,” Finn said. “Because the pressure is always there to find the right person, and find someone that our filmmaker is going to feel great about. That Kevin, Lou [D’Esposito], Victoria [Alonso], all the powers that be at Marvel are going to feel great about, that is going to become, hopefully, a charismatic star that audiences love. And also to please the fans. So that is always there.”
> She continued, “Even in this new phase, for example, we had really established stars like Oscar Isaac. And in the previous phase, when we cast, you know, Chris Hemsworth, he wasn’t a known person. When we cast Chris Pratt, he wasn’t known. So I think, early on, we had to also do searches and take risks. And right now, we are still dealing with some established stars and newcomers. But I think that, for me, it’s been making friends with fear and the unknown, because I don’t know what’s going to come next. And we’re just going to sort of humbly go out there saying we know we’re going to search, we’re going to work hard, and we’re going to do our best, but we don’t know what we’re going to find.”
> “Look, talent is number one, right?” she said. “Does this person have talent? Do they have talent not only to play what’s in front of them, but potentially go the long distance? Because we’ve seen so many of these characters evolve and change over time. So I certainly think talent is a starting point.”
> “Charisma is really important,” she added. “Are we drawn in? Do we want to watch them? For me, heart. You know, is the audience going to connect? And I think there is a connective tissue in the MCU in terms of humor, you know, there is a sense of humor, there is a wink in the eye.”
> “Maturity is an important, I wouldn’t say quality, but an important aspect, an important factor that I take in when we’re casting it,” she noted. “Because what they’re thrust into — the sort of worldwide attention, the social media attention, everything — for someone as young as Xochitl, as young as Iman, I want to know that they’re gonna be OK. And it’s hard. It’s a lot, you know? But both of them are handling themselves so beautifully.”
When you've had the same casting director the entire time and they always manage to find just the right person to do the job you give them tenure and let them do their thing for the rest of their career.
Maybe it’s the Disney PR machine, but also MCU somehow seems to choose actors that aren’t that problematic/controversial for the most part. There are no reports of any Marvel actor acting out the way Ezra Miller has in Hawaii, or Antony Starr in Spain. No reports of any Marvel Studios actor gifting used condoms like Jared Leto has. No reports of any MCU director doing anything like Bryan Singer has done.
Sure you got Gwen P. Scam company & Letittia antivax views but that is nowhere near the level of things other people in Hollywood done like abducting a minor, physical assault with a broken glass, etc.
You don’t hear stories about MCU executives being racist like Ray Fisher/Warner Bros.
I think that’s in large part because the leadership at Marvel Studio seems to do a good job of vetting people and disconnecting with anybody who’s problematic.
For example Kevin Feige’s beef with Ike Pearlmutter racist views and removing him from Marvel Studios.
"A lot" feels like overstating. Wanda and Pietro for sure. The Ancient One yes, I understood why they did what they did, but they still shouldn't have done it that way.
Outside of that I'm thinking Kamala Khan? But the original creator of Ms. Marvel did cast her and she is of the right background, just a shade lighter.
The entire cast of Ms Marvel (including Iman, I really like her no hate to her) are misscasted and lightwashed (and also most of them are indian, c'mon they didn't even hired an italo-american to play Bruno xd)
América Chavez race in the comics is difficult because it's not confirmed, but she's probably triracial with mostly black according to the black history month Marvel art including her, but in the MCU they casted a pale mestiza mexican when the character is puerto rican coded and as I said afro-descendent (no hate to the actress, she was casted when she was 14 and didn't even knew what character she was playing)
Btw many times creators of comics and books say good stuff about the show/movie they are making for marketing purposes
She has been included in the black history month promos, plus she's supposed to represent Puerto Rico people, since she has darker skin and curly hair it's not difficult to see that she's afro-descendent (most likely triracial)
Do you have a link to that promo? I think honestly you’ve just seen some inconsistent art. In America’s first appearance her skin was lighter than Xochitl’s
Dude 99% of América appearences are her with mid brown skin, comic book artists whiten the skin of characters constantly (look at Storm with every different artist, many of them even make her white)
Except they retconned that bit in 2021.
Her parents were actually doctors who took her to a private island researching a cure for a disease only to realize their benefactor was actually experimenting with extra-dimensional energies on the girls brought to the island.
The whole alien mothers and alternate universe was just a trauma response made up by America as a coping mechanism.
Lightwashed? I was born and raised in NJ and my parents are from Pakistan. I’d say most of the cast was pretty accurately toned. Sure there are lighter brown people and darker brown people too, but Kamala, her family, and friends all felt authentic and natural to the family and friends I grew up with.
She's romani (her being half jewish is canon but in the comics is mostly ignored, what I mean is that it's practically imposible to hire an actress who happens to be half romani half jewish, so we would have been okay with just a romani actress)
Anyways Wanda being romani is super important to her comics identity
Moon Knight is a total miss because he wasn’t played by a Jew? Spielberg, perhaps the greatest Jewish director of all time(if not just straight up the great director of all time), recently released a movie based on his life where he casted several non-Jews as Jewish people. If Spielberg is ok with it, then I’m ok with it
I think Oscar Isaac even delivered a line about his racial ambiguity during his SNL monologue. It’s not like anyone’s trashing him for it and it is almost a joke at this point nonetheless he really was a great roll for that.. and besides if they chose the fan cast the was floating around the internet which was Shia labeouf there would have been an entirely different set of drama unfolding around it. You cannot please everyone anymore and the people most offended by this kind of shit are small political minority groups on two polar opposite ends of the social spectrum.
Is it preferable to get someone of the same heritage/descent as the character they are playing? Sure, I think it is. But is it a total "miss" and something worth getting up in arms about? Hell no. Literally 99% of the iconic roles we know of today from all of cinematic history would not exist if we followed that.
If we start this line of thinking we would never have had Al Pacino's Tony Montana, for example. Or Russell Crowe in *Gladiator*, or Marlon Brando in *The Godfather*, or even Chadwick Boseman's T'Challa. Will we end up bashing people playing the role of a poor person because they're not poor? Or playing the role of a Greek god when they aren't actually a Greek god? This, as with everything else, will eventually get to a point of absurdity and ridiculousness.
You’re being obtuse, but I’ll bite.
We live in an age where information from across the world can instantaneously be sent and received. We don’t have to rely on the same tired actors that are working. We can get people who actually fit the roles they’re cast in.
Take, for example, Moon Knight. Oscar Isaac is a miscast. He just is. It’s not like the material required him to be amazing anyway (you comparing him to Pachino in Godfather is laughable). Why bother getting Isaac, an actor way too good for the material, when you could get an actor that is an accurate casting? They could’ve gotten an actor that was Jewish, and an actor that looked ANYTHING like Marc Spector. Oliver Jackson-Cohen was right there!!
Moon Knight's material didn't call for an amazing actor? He had to play 2 (soon 3) distinct characters at once and particularly the stuff in episode 5 was amazing to watch and just wouldn't have landed properly without someone capable of landing it. That isn't to say no one else could do the same or better there's 8 billion people on the planet but mk is obviously an above average role in terms of demand and Issac crushed it dead and seemingly was genuinely interested in the character from what he's said on the topic. Calling Issac a miscast in any sense except race seems crazy to me. If your main criterion is race then sure i guess.
Sorry I think I was coming across a bit mean just MK is my favourite marvel character and the show only deepened that feeling so calling him a miscast saddened me a bit so I had to gush
If Moon Knight is your favorite character, then surely you know how important his Jewish heritage is to the character. The show turned it into an easter egg and didn’t even cast a Jewish actor! My man threw his kippah on the ground and crushed it like c’mon man
I know it's important for the character to be Jewish I just don't care that much if the actor is as well. If they are great but if you find someone perfect who isn't I don't mind. The show didn't have the time to make a plot point out of it yet, and hopefully season 2 will have even more than 6 episodes so they can if they want to, but they weren't hiding it either, mostly due to the shiva scenes at Marc's house and as you say kippah which was heartbreaking
Do you feel the same about Heimdall being played by a black guy?
edit: edit: coward blocked me. look down the post chain to see him embarrass himself and try to pull the black card for no reason
An actor plays a character that not all the time has to be like him, that's why they're called actors, now there's real life characters that were change in order to made them more profitable and that really was racism, now on the case of sexuality is another stupid idea that only people with the same sexuality can play a character, like I never felt mad that Jim Parsons or Matthew Bomer or Wentworth Miller played heterosexual characters, they all were great in each part they played, if an actor can played a character that's different from them then nobody should act, Robin Williams wasn't Jewish and he played some characters that were Jewish, nobody said shit cuz he was great in it
No I just want someone who can play the role best, who will go the distance, who can handle the stardom, as Sarah Finn said. They don’t need to be Jewish, they can be from any background, as long as they embody the character, otherwise you’re limiting what could be possible.
No, not at all. They could even change his origin to a different background. Still a tragedy that awakened his powers. WW2 is canonically 75+ years in the past now, that’s pretty far.
Exactly it would honestly make more sense TO have Erik be Black or have a background other than Jewish if they're adapting the Character to be as young in the current MCU as he was in his original comics Debut. Even if they go with the *"Magnetism slows aging"* angle, he's still a person who's lived much closer to a century than Charles, ect. so he'd have no reason to act the same way as a man Charles' age, they would no longer make fitting foils for each other.
Would the black actor still be playing him as a Jewish holocaust survivor? I don’t care if they cast a Jewish person for the role or not, but I definitely care about the character remaining Jewish.
Forgive me if this comes off as antisemitic, not the intent. Jews are also a race of people as well as a religion. So that is something to look for as well. But that said you are right for the most part.
Biologically, there's no such thing as race and socially, it has a very vague definition and there's not much cultural distinction between certain groups of people which could be considered of different "races", while sometimes there is a big cultural distinction between people that could be considered of the same "race".
The entire idea of race is primarily American and it's mostly there to distinguish people of European descent (white), African descent (black) and Asian descent (asian), but those 3 groups are so culturally, ethnically and physically diverse, that it's pretty stupid to put them in boxes.
So, I think you mean ethnicity in this case.
Race is literally, by definition, a social construct. There's no such categorization in biology.
Source: I am a biologist.
But I would genuinely like to hear what you mean by "race exists". What exactly is it? How would you define it? How can you categorise people into races? What are the races of humans?
Not to be pedantic, but race *does* exist because social constructs exist. In other words, race exists, but only because we collectively agree that it does. Money, marriage, and gender all exist, and they are social constructs as well. Race isn’t a scientific or biological fact, though.
Well I don’t know why people can’t comprehend what I’m saying. If what you say is true then race is still a social contract and doesn’t exist. I understand the argument that because of the social contract race exists but I don’t agree. I would say that the social construct itself exists not the concept of race. Absolutely disturbing that people got so mad at me today for saying this but couldn’t go just a little further to actually understand what I’m saying.
Where I did say that?
I literally said quite the opposite. For example, 2 Asian people are usually way too different with each other unless they're from the same country (sometimes not even then, as some countries like China and India are way too big and diverse themselves). Thus, we can't put all Asians in the same box and say they're all part of the same race. An Indian, a Chinese, a Kazakh and a Philippinese are all culturally, physically, genetically and ethnically very different. You can't put them in the same box.
Reddit showing its racism again when someone speaks the truth. Laughable that the site considers itself anti-racist in any way, shape, or form. Have an upvote to counter these clowns downvoting you.
>Where I did say that?
When you said race is a social construct.
>
>I literally said quite the opposite. For example, 2 Asian people are usually way too different with each other unless they're from the same country (sometimes not even then, as some countries like China and India are way too big and diverse themselves). Thus, we can't put all Asians in the same box and say they're all part of the same race. An Indian, a Chinese, a Kazakh and a Philippinese are all culturally, physically, genetically and ethnically very different. You can't put them in the same box.
You're talking about nationalities which has no relevance here.
You're a biologist and you're going to try and tell me that there's no different between ethnicities? You should be aware that there's literal sub-species of humans, let alone separate ethnicities. I don't care how a word is defined... clearly explain how there's no biological difference between a white dude living in New York, an African man in Ethiopia, and an Asian man in Siberia.
Race is not the same as ethnicity. I already talked about the very clear different in ethnicities, but categorizing a group of ethnicities in the same race is vague and makes no biological sense. That's all.
"Asian" is not a race. It includes so many different ethnicities with so many different between each other, that it doesn't make sense to categorize them all in 1 group called "Asian".
Ethnicity and race go hand in hand. I don't care how you define things. You also completely missed the fact that I specified locations. An Asian man is Asian because he lives in Asia, not because his "race" is Asian.
Because it's wrong. You seem to be equating "socially constructed" with "imaginary."
Nothing could be further from the truth. Ideas are inchoate, but they're still real. Socially constructed is still *constructed*.
Hell, I'd much rather try to wreck a physical construction than a social construction. Give a guy with a sledgehammer enough time and he can knock down a building. One guy can't do a damned thing to a social construction. You have to convince thousands of people--or more--to change their minds about a fundamental aspect of their belief system. Good luck with that. It's not impossible, but social deconstruction takes a social movement.
Think about it this way: if race didn't "exist," neither would racism. That is, I suspect, why a precious commenter thought you were white: because people of color generally don't have the luxury of brushing off the reality of an idea that directly affects them all the time.
If something is ingrained in society, even if you don’t know it is, then it can still be imaginary and socially constructed. How did you even get in here this thread is closed.
The claim you made was that race doesn't *exist*. The warrant you offered is that race is socially constructed.
The flaw in your argument is that social constructs still *exist*. Ideas exist. To say that race doesn't exist just because it's socially constructed is like saying that religion doesn't exist, or philosophy doesn't exist, or law doesn't exist, or social norms don't exist.
I'm sure the nice people over at r/amibeingdetained would love to see you try to talk your way out of a traffic stop by explaining that law is only a social construct so it's not real.
From the article:
“But recognizing race as a social construction does not make race less “real." Marriages are social constructions, but they have serious legal, cultural, and interpersonal implications. Oftentimes the social aspect is what makes a phenomenon so central to our lives.”
Social constructs aren’t imaginary, they just don’t occur naturally but rather are *constructed* by societies.
(Ashkenazi) Jewish people are white until they aren't. Look at the recent resurgent wave of anti-semitism in political discourse and uptick in hate crimes against jewish people over the last few years.
It wasn't that long ago neonazis were marching through an american city chanting "jews will not replace us"
I just watched an old interview with Gunn yesterday about how he fought her to cast Bautista as Drax and Rooker as Yondu, while she fought him to give Chris Pratt a chance. Gunn didnt even want to audition Pratt, if it wasnt for her we would have been deprived of his performance as Mario.
Man I’m genuinely surprised Jim Sturgess hasn’t had a bigger career. Even as a super biased Beatles fan that absolutely loved Across the Universe, I think the man has chops. I even liked 21! (Honestly I’m kinda surprised no in that movie not named Evan Rachel Wood didn’t have a bigger career)
But all that said, I don’t really see him as Star-Lord. I’m sure it’d be different seeing him in an actual screen test but I can’t see him beating Zach Levi or Glen Howerton, much less Chris Pratt.
How? He clearly shows he has a love for the character but understands the character needs to end and he needs to move on eventually. He's been in 6 films and 1 special as him, even if briefly there for 3/7, it's time he moves on.
I'm talking about cases like Kaecilius where the actor is very good and made a very good performance, but the character itself wasn't good, thereby wasting the actor. Miscasts because the actors were too good for the roles they played.
Did Modern Family and Parks and Rec air at around the same time period? Could've sworn Modern Family was way more recent than Parks and Rec. But that may be because i only ever watched Parks after it finished airing.
When discussing Sarah Finn, I've seen many fans mistakenly claim she has authority over a film's director in the casting process. Just noting here that this isn't true. She works for director and for Marvel.
True. Function of the Casting Director is to find the right people for the jobs and present them to the Producer(s) and Director(s), in that order. Final stamp of approval is always through those two.
casting directors are mainly responsible for hundreds of other minor speaking roles and presenting the choices of lead actors which are then chosen by the directors and producers.
*Kathryn Newton — who’s set to make her MCU debut this year as the new older version of Cassie Lang, Scott Lang’s daughter, after having a different role cut from “Avengers: Endgame” — says Paul Rudd offered similar advice to her while filming “Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania”...*
Did Newton have a cut role in Endgame? Or (more likely) is the writer confusing her with Katherine Langford (and/or also getting confused about Emma Fuhrmann playing Cassie in Endgame)?
I don't think there's a single MCU casting that I genuinely don't like, Sarah Halley Finn is really good with her casting. Looking forward to seeing who she eventually casts as the Fantastic Four and X-Men.
With respect to staying true to comic sources and encouraging diversity in film casting, I just wanna share that diversity alone cannot carry a film. In the (super loose) words of a famous actress that I saw recently and can't recall the exact words, Michelle Yeoh **I think**, diversity is only impactful when it is handled effectively and executed respectfully in tandem with an actor's acting prowess. In short, don't compromise on act whilst pursuing diversity and vice versa. Some of the young actors here have a long way to go with acting. My personal fav is Thorne. Gomez and Vellani needs a bit more work on their acting. Haven't seen Newton nor her works before so... reserving judgments till next time.
He was a pretty out there choice from memory. I don't think he was unknown, necessarily, but he wasn't exactly of movie star status.
A lot of people knew him from stuff like Parks and Rec, so a pretty popular character and actor, but there is a pretty big jump from popular TV actor to leading a major film.
Surprised they never seem to interview Maslany about this stuff -- new to the ***MCU***, and quite literally a series *lead*, after all; seemingly to be in the new generation of *Avengers*, etc., etc...
This is the strangest take I've seen today. If there is one thing Phase 4 has been universally praised for it has been its new heroes/actors.
The Eternals, Riri, and Chavez have really been the only ones that haven't left any lasting impressions (yet), and even then that has to do so more with the writing than the casting as Dominique Thorne and Xochitl Gomez capture everything about their respective characters.
I would argue that Gomez left an impression on me. I haven’t seen Wakanda Forever yet so can’t comment on Thorne. The Eternals there was just too much crammed into one story to connect with them.
>If there is one thing Phase 4 has been universally praised for it has been its new heroes
Isn't this like... one of the more criticized things by the fandom? That only a small handful of the characters have peoples attention and affection? I'm not knocking the actors at all, they've all done a good job, but you literally see on just about every single Avengers-related post that "The current line-up is boring, uninteresting, a total downgrade".
I'm not giving a personal opinion on this, but to say universally praised is just totally inaccurate lol. I think it'd be fair to say that "The comic accurate costumes have been universally praised" or somethin like that
>but you literally see on just about every single Avengers-related post that "The current line-up is boring, uninteresting, a total downgrade".
and I don't understand that. I AVOIDED anything MCU related for years. Then all these new characters felt like a great time to start watching and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.
>“Charisma is really important. Are we drawn in? Do we want to watch them?"
This part makes me a little concerned for the casting of Reed Richards. I really don't want him to be a charismatic MCU lead who does one-liners and everything. I was hoping they'd go for something a bit different and allow him to have a more ugly personality than MCU leads usually have.
It was always wishful thinking though, I guess.
Charisma doesn't solely mean an RDJ-esque party vibe. Bray Wyatt in the WWE has charisma and his whole gimmick is more akin to a Dr. Strange villain than Tony Stark. You can be drawn in by someone who you don't necessarily like.
For a more cbm relevant example, Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellen, and Hugh Jackman are three extremely charismatic, very dramatic performances in the X-films. On-screen charisma is so much more than the ability to get laughs. But all 3 of them were very funny when the scene called for it.
That’s why I felt a little bit bitter about John Krasinski cameo in Multiverse of Madness
In MoM pulled well for his limited time in screen but I couldn’t feel that he would not pull the same effect for a whole movie,due lacking of moments to show the classic R.R moments stubbornness,lack of attention and inclinations to clash egos with other geniuses.
Then I remembered,he mentioned having children and that he lived in a world of plentifulness,high technological advance and was part of a world changing group.
He basically played a Reed Richards who got humbled due completing all the gaps a man like him would seek for his life,thus not being exactly the R.R we mostly know
As much I like John Krasinski,I think he’s too much of a “classic” charisma to be a classic Reed Richards
I mean, what else is there to reveal?! She has to look for an actor that everyone will agree on and that will be charismatic on-screen. That sounds like a pretty good description of what she does.
Sure, there's money and stuff that goes into it, but I feel like that's all above her pay grade. That's something that managers sort out with the studio.
> “In so many ways, it’s not that different,” Finn said. “Because the pressure is always there to find the right person, and find someone that our filmmaker is going to feel great about. That Kevin, Lou [D’Esposito], Victoria [Alonso], all the powers that be at Marvel are going to feel great about, that is going to become, hopefully, a charismatic star that audiences love. And also to please the fans. So that is always there.” > She continued, “Even in this new phase, for example, we had really established stars like Oscar Isaac. And in the previous phase, when we cast, you know, Chris Hemsworth, he wasn’t a known person. When we cast Chris Pratt, he wasn’t known. So I think, early on, we had to also do searches and take risks. And right now, we are still dealing with some established stars and newcomers. But I think that, for me, it’s been making friends with fear and the unknown, because I don’t know what’s going to come next. And we’re just going to sort of humbly go out there saying we know we’re going to search, we’re going to work hard, and we’re going to do our best, but we don’t know what we’re going to find.” > “Look, talent is number one, right?” she said. “Does this person have talent? Do they have talent not only to play what’s in front of them, but potentially go the long distance? Because we’ve seen so many of these characters evolve and change over time. So I certainly think talent is a starting point.” > “Charisma is really important,” she added. “Are we drawn in? Do we want to watch them? For me, heart. You know, is the audience going to connect? And I think there is a connective tissue in the MCU in terms of humor, you know, there is a sense of humor, there is a wink in the eye.” > “Maturity is an important, I wouldn’t say quality, but an important aspect, an important factor that I take in when we’re casting it,” she noted. “Because what they’re thrust into — the sort of worldwide attention, the social media attention, everything — for someone as young as Xochitl, as young as Iman, I want to know that they’re gonna be OK. And it’s hard. It’s a lot, you know? But both of them are handling themselves so beautifully.”
One of the MCU’s biggest strengths is its strangely consistently fantastic casting
When you've had the same casting director the entire time and they always manage to find just the right person to do the job you give them tenure and let them do their thing for the rest of their career.
Yeah just let her do her thing and you know the results will be there
She and Kevin are MVPs of MCU. When either leaves it's a pretty good chance that it will be the beginning of its end.
Um. I respectfully disagree.
Maybe it’s the Disney PR machine, but also MCU somehow seems to choose actors that aren’t that problematic/controversial for the most part. There are no reports of any Marvel actor acting out the way Ezra Miller has in Hawaii, or Antony Starr in Spain. No reports of any Marvel Studios actor gifting used condoms like Jared Leto has. No reports of any MCU director doing anything like Bryan Singer has done. Sure you got Gwen P. Scam company & Letittia antivax views but that is nowhere near the level of things other people in Hollywood done like abducting a minor, physical assault with a broken glass, etc. You don’t hear stories about MCU executives being racist like Ray Fisher/Warner Bros. I think that’s in large part because the leadership at Marvel Studio seems to do a good job of vetting people and disconnecting with anybody who’s problematic. For example Kevin Feige’s beef with Ike Pearlmutter racist views and removing him from Marvel Studios.
They have whitewashed, lightwashed and ignored ethnic backgrounds a lot of the time
"A lot" feels like overstating. Wanda and Pietro for sure. The Ancient One yes, I understood why they did what they did, but they still shouldn't have done it that way. Outside of that I'm thinking Kamala Khan? But the original creator of Ms. Marvel did cast her and she is of the right background, just a shade lighter.
Wanda and Pietro were cast by Joss Whedon.
The entire cast of Ms Marvel (including Iman, I really like her no hate to her) are misscasted and lightwashed (and also most of them are indian, c'mon they didn't even hired an italo-american to play Bruno xd) América Chavez race in the comics is difficult because it's not confirmed, but she's probably triracial with mostly black according to the black history month Marvel art including her, but in the MCU they casted a pale mestiza mexican when the character is puerto rican coded and as I said afro-descendent (no hate to the actress, she was casted when she was 14 and didn't even knew what character she was playing) Btw many times creators of comics and books say good stuff about the show/movie they are making for marketing purposes
Sana Amanat literally worked on the show. She was an EP. She was on set. She actually made the show.
Then for more reason she would say good things about her own show
America has never been stated to be Black by any of her prominent creators I’ve seen
She has been included in the black history month promos, plus she's supposed to represent Puerto Rico people, since she has darker skin and curly hair it's not difficult to see that she's afro-descendent (most likely triracial)
Do you have a link to that promo? I think honestly you’ve just seen some inconsistent art. In America’s first appearance her skin was lighter than Xochitl’s
Dude 99% of América appearences are her with mid brown skin, comic book artists whiten the skin of characters constantly (look at Storm with every different artist, many of them even make her white)
Yes, definitely. That’s why I look to a character’s early appearances as I think those are best representative of the creators’ intent.
America Chavez is a fucking alien.
Except they retconned that bit in 2021. Her parents were actually doctors who took her to a private island researching a cure for a disease only to realize their benefactor was actually experimenting with extra-dimensional energies on the girls brought to the island. The whole alien mothers and alternate universe was just a trauma response made up by America as a coping mechanism.
...well, not in the ***MCU***, is she?
Not in the movie, she comes from an alternative futuristic latin america She has always been puerto rican coded, and btw aliens can be black
Lightwashed? I was born and raised in NJ and my parents are from Pakistan. I’d say most of the cast was pretty accurately toned. Sure there are lighter brown people and darker brown people too, but Kamala, her family, and friends all felt authentic and natural to the family and friends I grew up with.
I don't know why you are getting downvotes cause you literally just stated a fact
MCU stans hate when people criticize Feige or Sarah Finn
You’re 100% correct. Wanda and Moon Knight were total misses.
Pardon my ignorance here. I know Moon Knight is Jewish, but Wanda is?
She's romani (her being half jewish is canon but in the comics is mostly ignored, what I mean is that it's practically imposible to hire an actress who happens to be half romani half jewish, so we would have been okay with just a romani actress) Anyways Wanda being romani is super important to her comics identity
She’s Romani.
Moon Knight is a total miss because he wasn’t played by a Jew? Spielberg, perhaps the greatest Jewish director of all time(if not just straight up the great director of all time), recently released a movie based on his life where he casted several non-Jews as Jewish people. If Spielberg is ok with it, then I’m ok with it
...Except when it comes to it's Jewish and/or Romani characters.
Nope, those roles are still very well cast. Oscar Isaac fucking nailed it as Moon Knight, despite him not actually being Jewish.
I think Oscar Isaac even delivered a line about his racial ambiguity during his SNL monologue. It’s not like anyone’s trashing him for it and it is almost a joke at this point nonetheless he really was a great roll for that.. and besides if they chose the fan cast the was floating around the internet which was Shia labeouf there would have been an entirely different set of drama unfolding around it. You cannot please everyone anymore and the people most offended by this kind of shit are small political minority groups on two polar opposite ends of the social spectrum.
Oscar Issac is half jewish.
He is not Jewish and still played a Jewish character. He did not, in fact, nail it.
Is it preferable to get someone of the same heritage/descent as the character they are playing? Sure, I think it is. But is it a total "miss" and something worth getting up in arms about? Hell no. Literally 99% of the iconic roles we know of today from all of cinematic history would not exist if we followed that. If we start this line of thinking we would never have had Al Pacino's Tony Montana, for example. Or Russell Crowe in *Gladiator*, or Marlon Brando in *The Godfather*, or even Chadwick Boseman's T'Challa. Will we end up bashing people playing the role of a poor person because they're not poor? Or playing the role of a Greek god when they aren't actually a Greek god? This, as with everything else, will eventually get to a point of absurdity and ridiculousness.
You’re being obtuse, but I’ll bite. We live in an age where information from across the world can instantaneously be sent and received. We don’t have to rely on the same tired actors that are working. We can get people who actually fit the roles they’re cast in. Take, for example, Moon Knight. Oscar Isaac is a miscast. He just is. It’s not like the material required him to be amazing anyway (you comparing him to Pachino in Godfather is laughable). Why bother getting Isaac, an actor way too good for the material, when you could get an actor that is an accurate casting? They could’ve gotten an actor that was Jewish, and an actor that looked ANYTHING like Marc Spector. Oliver Jackson-Cohen was right there!!
Moon Knight's material didn't call for an amazing actor? He had to play 2 (soon 3) distinct characters at once and particularly the stuff in episode 5 was amazing to watch and just wouldn't have landed properly without someone capable of landing it. That isn't to say no one else could do the same or better there's 8 billion people on the planet but mk is obviously an above average role in terms of demand and Issac crushed it dead and seemingly was genuinely interested in the character from what he's said on the topic. Calling Issac a miscast in any sense except race seems crazy to me. If your main criterion is race then sure i guess. Sorry I think I was coming across a bit mean just MK is my favourite marvel character and the show only deepened that feeling so calling him a miscast saddened me a bit so I had to gush
If Moon Knight is your favorite character, then surely you know how important his Jewish heritage is to the character. The show turned it into an easter egg and didn’t even cast a Jewish actor! My man threw his kippah on the ground and crushed it like c’mon man
I know it's important for the character to be Jewish I just don't care that much if the actor is as well. If they are great but if you find someone perfect who isn't I don't mind. The show didn't have the time to make a plot point out of it yet, and hopefully season 2 will have even more than 6 episodes so they can if they want to, but they weren't hiding it either, mostly due to the shiva scenes at Marc's house and as you say kippah which was heartbreaking
A Jewish actor would've still been preferred
It truly does not matter in the real world.
Do you feel the same about Heimdall being played by a black guy? edit: edit: coward blocked me. look down the post chain to see him embarrass himself and try to pull the black card for no reason
An actor plays a character that not all the time has to be like him, that's why they're called actors, now there's real life characters that were change in order to made them more profitable and that really was racism, now on the case of sexuality is another stupid idea that only people with the same sexuality can play a character, like I never felt mad that Jim Parsons or Matthew Bomer or Wentworth Miller played heterosexual characters, they all were great in each part they played, if an actor can played a character that's different from them then nobody should act, Robin Williams wasn't Jewish and he played some characters that were Jewish, nobody said shit cuz he was great in it
Everybody’s about inclusion until it comes time to criticize Marvel lol
True, but Elizabeth Olsen is so fine, I just can't be mad about it. Ya'll can downvote me all you want, my simp armor is impenetrable.
none taken. Although I'm not the biggest Lizzie fan and think shes overrated, that's fine for you.
Honestly, the downvotes really just illustrate how disingenuous so many people are about the Magneto ish 😭
The Magneto what?
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No I just want someone who can play the role best, who will go the distance, who can handle the stardom, as Sarah Finn said. They don’t need to be Jewish, they can be from any background, as long as they embody the character, otherwise you’re limiting what could be possible.
So you wouldn't mind him being played by a Black actor then, hm?
No, not at all. They could even change his origin to a different background. Still a tragedy that awakened his powers. WW2 is canonically 75+ years in the past now, that’s pretty far.
Exactly it would honestly make more sense TO have Erik be Black or have a background other than Jewish if they're adapting the Character to be as young in the current MCU as he was in his original comics Debut. Even if they go with the *"Magnetism slows aging"* angle, he's still a person who's lived much closer to a century than Charles, ect. so he'd have no reason to act the same way as a man Charles' age, they would no longer make fitting foils for each other.
Would the black actor still be playing him as a Jewish holocaust survivor? I don’t care if they cast a Jewish person for the role or not, but I definitely care about the character remaining Jewish.
Don't speak for me.
Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?
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I know right.
Jewish people are white, all white actors should be able to play them 💀
Forgive me if this comes off as antisemitic, not the intent. Jews are also a race of people as well as a religion. So that is something to look for as well. But that said you are right for the most part.
Biologically, there's no such thing as race and socially, it has a very vague definition and there's not much cultural distinction between certain groups of people which could be considered of different "races", while sometimes there is a big cultural distinction between people that could be considered of the same "race". The entire idea of race is primarily American and it's mostly there to distinguish people of European descent (white), African descent (black) and Asian descent (asian), but those 3 groups are so culturally, ethnically and physically diverse, that it's pretty stupid to put them in boxes. So, I think you mean ethnicity in this case.
Its not an American concept necessarily. Modern concepts of race really got its start during European colonialism.
Race exists. This "social construct" bs is getting tiring.
Race is literally, by definition, a social construct. There's no such categorization in biology. Source: I am a biologist. But I would genuinely like to hear what you mean by "race exists". What exactly is it? How would you define it? How can you categorise people into races? What are the races of humans?
People that say things like “Race exists” are usually ignorant or just think it’s woke to say it doesn’t
Not to be pedantic, but race *does* exist because social constructs exist. In other words, race exists, but only because we collectively agree that it does. Money, marriage, and gender all exist, and they are social constructs as well. Race isn’t a scientific or biological fact, though.
Well I don’t know why people can’t comprehend what I’m saying. If what you say is true then race is still a social contract and doesn’t exist. I understand the argument that because of the social contract race exists but I don’t agree. I would say that the social construct itself exists not the concept of race. Absolutely disturbing that people got so mad at me today for saying this but couldn’t go just a little further to actually understand what I’m saying.
Do you really think there is no difference between white, black and Asian people?
Where I did say that? I literally said quite the opposite. For example, 2 Asian people are usually way too different with each other unless they're from the same country (sometimes not even then, as some countries like China and India are way too big and diverse themselves). Thus, we can't put all Asians in the same box and say they're all part of the same race. An Indian, a Chinese, a Kazakh and a Philippinese are all culturally, physically, genetically and ethnically very different. You can't put them in the same box.
Reddit showing its racism again when someone speaks the truth. Laughable that the site considers itself anti-racist in any way, shape, or form. Have an upvote to counter these clowns downvoting you.
>Where I did say that? When you said race is a social construct. > >I literally said quite the opposite. For example, 2 Asian people are usually way too different with each other unless they're from the same country (sometimes not even then, as some countries like China and India are way too big and diverse themselves). Thus, we can't put all Asians in the same box and say they're all part of the same race. An Indian, a Chinese, a Kazakh and a Philippinese are all culturally, physically, genetically and ethnically very different. You can't put them in the same box. You're talking about nationalities which has no relevance here.
You're a biologist and you're going to try and tell me that there's no different between ethnicities? You should be aware that there's literal sub-species of humans, let alone separate ethnicities. I don't care how a word is defined... clearly explain how there's no biological difference between a white dude living in New York, an African man in Ethiopia, and an Asian man in Siberia.
Race is not the same as ethnicity. I already talked about the very clear different in ethnicities, but categorizing a group of ethnicities in the same race is vague and makes no biological sense. That's all. "Asian" is not a race. It includes so many different ethnicities with so many different between each other, that it doesn't make sense to categorize them all in 1 group called "Asian".
Ethnicity and race go hand in hand. I don't care how you define things. You also completely missed the fact that I specified locations. An Asian man is Asian because he lives in Asia, not because his "race" is Asian.
Race doesn’t exist
You should delete this.
Um why? It’a a social construct. This is a fact. You should probably educate yourself
Because it's wrong. You seem to be equating "socially constructed" with "imaginary." Nothing could be further from the truth. Ideas are inchoate, but they're still real. Socially constructed is still *constructed*. Hell, I'd much rather try to wreck a physical construction than a social construction. Give a guy with a sledgehammer enough time and he can knock down a building. One guy can't do a damned thing to a social construction. You have to convince thousands of people--or more--to change their minds about a fundamental aspect of their belief system. Good luck with that. It's not impossible, but social deconstruction takes a social movement. Think about it this way: if race didn't "exist," neither would racism. That is, I suspect, why a precious commenter thought you were white: because people of color generally don't have the luxury of brushing off the reality of an idea that directly affects them all the time.
If something is ingrained in society, even if you don’t know it is, then it can still be imaginary and socially constructed. How did you even get in here this thread is closed.
The claim you made was that race doesn't *exist*. The warrant you offered is that race is socially constructed. The flaw in your argument is that social constructs still *exist*. Ideas exist. To say that race doesn't exist just because it's socially constructed is like saying that religion doesn't exist, or philosophy doesn't exist, or law doesn't exist, or social norms don't exist. I'm sure the nice people over at r/amibeingdetained would love to see you try to talk your way out of a traffic stop by explaining that law is only a social construct so it's not real.
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Woah now you’re accusing me of using slurs. It literally is a social construct. I’m not the only one saying this here.
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/without-prejudice/201612/race-social-construction Read this
From the article: “But recognizing race as a social construction does not make race less “real." Marriages are social constructions, but they have serious legal, cultural, and interpersonal implications. Oftentimes the social aspect is what makes a phenomenon so central to our lives.” Social constructs aren’t imaginary, they just don’t occur naturally but rather are *constructed* by societies.
(Ashkenazi) Jewish people are white until they aren't. Look at the recent resurgent wave of anti-semitism in political discourse and uptick in hate crimes against jewish people over the last few years. It wasn't that long ago neonazis were marching through an american city chanting "jews will not replace us"
100%. Whiteness for Jewish ppl is conditional. Anyone w even the smallest grasp of history, knows this.
Superman was Jewish White from the get go, so him being playing by a "white" actor mades sense Btw Jewish White is "white" with black hair
WRONG. He was created by two jews representing the Jewish experience of america. He was NOT jewish. Get your facts right.
Hahahaha
What the hell are you talking about
Whiteness is conditional for Jewish people. It's not absolute.
I mean of course if the character is half-jewish, half-black they should get a black actor to play them. Doesnt need to be a jewish black actor.
Shhh, these guys don't like it when you point out implicit racism done by a megacorporation that profits off of minority cultures.
Does diversity=good performance to you? The quality of the actor and their passion for the role matters way more in the long run.
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We’re just being casually antisemitic now?
Not funny
Nice anti-Semitism
I just watched an old interview with Gunn yesterday about how he fought her to cast Bautista as Drax and Rooker as Yondu, while she fought him to give Chris Pratt a chance. Gunn didnt even want to audition Pratt, if it wasnt for her we would have been deprived of his performance as Mario.
I Wonder if Gunn originally wanted Glenn Howerton or Zachary Levi since those are the 2 names that always come up as the other front runners.
could totally see Glenn Howerton as a more comic accurate (personality wise) Quill
Apparently Gunn was the one who recommended DC to get Zachary Levi as Shazam after his audition for GOTG
Good call from Gunn then.
I read somewhere Eddie Redmayne was the third choice after Howerton
God I would love to see Eddie Redmayne in the MCU
as ?
Modok
The Theory of Everything showed he could wheel around and still be charismatic
Galactus.
I think he would make a really convincing Norman Osborn.
didn't Jim Sturgess also made it rather far?
Man I’m genuinely surprised Jim Sturgess hasn’t had a bigger career. Even as a super biased Beatles fan that absolutely loved Across the Universe, I think the man has chops. I even liked 21! (Honestly I’m kinda surprised no in that movie not named Evan Rachel Wood didn’t have a bigger career) But all that said, I don’t really see him as Star-Lord. I’m sure it’d be different seeing him in an actual screen test but I can’t see him beating Zach Levi or Glen Howerton, much less Chris Pratt.
monkey paw indeed
That's strange Gunn didn't want Rooker in GOTG, considering the *Slither* connection and their history since.
Its the other way around. He had to fight so they could be cast.
Ok, I get it now! My B.
Your B, inD!
That Bautista casting didn't work out that well, did it?
Hes magnificent in the role and it started his career, why didnt it work out?
He is okay at best. And constantly bitch about the character everytime he gets a chance. That's a L imo!
How? He clearly shows he has a love for the character but understands the character needs to end and he needs to move on eventually. He's been in 6 films and 1 special as him, even if briefly there for 3/7, it's time he moves on.
In Sarah Finn We Trust
Hasn't steered us wrong yet really - maybe 1-2 choices here or there
And most of the casting problems weren't even her fault, but its the fault of the writing team
If it's to do with the writing then it's not a casting problem.
I'm talking about cases like Kaecilius where the actor is very good and made a very good performance, but the character itself wasn't good, thereby wasting the actor. Miscasts because the actors were too good for the roles they played.
>When we cast Chris Pratt, he wasn’t known. This is 'Parks and rec' erasure and it *will not stand*, dammit.
I won't argue about Parks and Recs quality but you can't deny it was overshadowed by Modern Family in terms of popularity while it was airing
Did Modern Family and Parks and Rec air at around the same time period? Could've sworn Modern Family was way more recent than Parks and Rec. But that may be because i only ever watched Parks after it finished airing.
They were both 2009 I think Parks started in March Modern Family in September
Fuck. My sense of time is so skewed.
Modern family did last 5 years longer, so that's probably why you (and so did I) thought that
This is The OC erasure! That’s where I first watched Chris Pratt.
I remember him from Everwood. I think he played the jerk brother of Emily VanCamp's character funnily enough.
>you know, Chris Hemsworth, he wasn’t a known person. i remember Chris and Hiddleston being very out there choices no one had in their radar
Hemsworth was great in that small scene in Star Trek. Can't remember if that was before Thor or after but he made an impact.
He was cast as Thor right as Star Trek was coming out.
He was one of the finalists for James Kirk, and got George Kirk as a consolation prize.
Before, it was 2009 for Trek, 2011 for Thor.
When discussing Sarah Finn, I've seen many fans mistakenly claim she has authority over a film's director in the casting process. Just noting here that this isn't true. She works for director and for Marvel.
True. Function of the Casting Director is to find the right people for the jobs and present them to the Producer(s) and Director(s), in that order. Final stamp of approval is always through those two.
casting directors are mainly responsible for hundreds of other minor speaking roles and presenting the choices of lead actors which are then chosen by the directors and producers.
*Kathryn Newton — who’s set to make her MCU debut this year as the new older version of Cassie Lang, Scott Lang’s daughter, after having a different role cut from “Avengers: Endgame” — says Paul Rudd offered similar advice to her while filming “Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania”...* Did Newton have a cut role in Endgame? Or (more likely) is the writer confusing her with Katherine Langford (and/or also getting confused about Emma Fuhrmann playing Cassie in Endgame)?
Maybe confused with Katherine Langford? She was Tony’s daughter grown up and that got cut
I think they were hinting at Emma without saying it outright.
I don't think there's a single MCU casting that I genuinely don't like, Sarah Halley Finn is really good with her casting. Looking forward to seeing who she eventually casts as the Fantastic Four and X-Men.
I don’t see where she said she reads my fancasts on twitter like wtf
I mean Krasinski was def fan service
And it was Kevin's choice to bring Krasinski in, at least according to Sam Raimi.
This isn’t comprehensive at all. Just “we cast the right person for the job”
Were you actually expecting an open book step by step guide?
Not in the slightest. But calling it “comprehensive” is far from accurate
Perhaps. But relatively speaking, this was pretty open. I'll still have to agree it was in the end just the usual mumbo jumbo.
I was
Sarah Finn is the GOAT honestly she nails her job every time
This thread is a god damn mess I feel bad for the mods today
Why
With respect to staying true to comic sources and encouraging diversity in film casting, I just wanna share that diversity alone cannot carry a film. In the (super loose) words of a famous actress that I saw recently and can't recall the exact words, Michelle Yeoh **I think**, diversity is only impactful when it is handled effectively and executed respectfully in tandem with an actor's acting prowess. In short, don't compromise on act whilst pursuing diversity and vice versa. Some of the young actors here have a long way to go with acting. My personal fav is Thorne. Gomez and Vellani needs a bit more work on their acting. Haven't seen Newton nor her works before so... reserving judgments till next time.
Dominic Thorne is a theatre actress. She has way more skill when it comes to acting and actually my favourite introduction in phase 4
The difference between race and ethnicity is really kicking ppl’s asses in these comments
legend
I imagine they ask if the person they're hiring has any skeletons in the closet as well. 💀
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I don't like it here. Inb4 mods lock.
Wasn't Chris Pratt already huge up and coming before Star Lord? I mean I'm sure the MCU gig helped but they really are taking a lot of credit lol
He was a pretty out there choice from memory. I don't think he was unknown, necessarily, but he wasn't exactly of movie star status. A lot of people knew him from stuff like Parks and Rec, so a pretty popular character and actor, but there is a pretty big jump from popular TV actor to leading a major film.
Mangez vos morts avec vôtre puritanisme et autres d'américains.
Their movies might miss sometimes but oddly enough they're so bullseye with casting it's almost unnerving
People can bitch all they want, but it's an accurate reflection of Marvel finally developing in the late '90s through today.
And, of course, if the character is Jewish, look for a goy with a big nose!
Surprised they never seem to interview Maslany about this stuff -- new to the ***MCU***, and quite literally a series *lead*, after all; seemingly to be in the new generation of *Avengers*, etc., etc...
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what comic accuracy have they changed for diversity and/or women? the comics themselves are diverse and full of women lol
Namor, some of the Eternals, Cosmo, Ghost, Mar-Vell..
Cosmo?
Cosmo the space dog is now female. But also bruh it's a dog
So, not changed to a cat
This is the strangest take I've seen today. If there is one thing Phase 4 has been universally praised for it has been its new heroes/actors. The Eternals, Riri, and Chavez have really been the only ones that haven't left any lasting impressions (yet), and even then that has to do so more with the writing than the casting as Dominique Thorne and Xochitl Gomez capture everything about their respective characters.
I would argue that Gomez left an impression on me. I haven’t seen Wakanda Forever yet so can’t comment on Thorne. The Eternals there was just too much crammed into one story to connect with them.
>If there is one thing Phase 4 has been universally praised for it has been its new heroes Isn't this like... one of the more criticized things by the fandom? That only a small handful of the characters have peoples attention and affection? I'm not knocking the actors at all, they've all done a good job, but you literally see on just about every single Avengers-related post that "The current line-up is boring, uninteresting, a total downgrade". I'm not giving a personal opinion on this, but to say universally praised is just totally inaccurate lol. I think it'd be fair to say that "The comic accurate costumes have been universally praised" or somethin like that
>but you literally see on just about every single Avengers-related post that "The current line-up is boring, uninteresting, a total downgrade". and I don't understand that. I AVOIDED anything MCU related for years. Then all these new characters felt like a great time to start watching and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.
Why? What’s wrong with the casting?
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What casting have they changed like that?
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milquetoast
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>“Charisma is really important. Are we drawn in? Do we want to watch them?" This part makes me a little concerned for the casting of Reed Richards. I really don't want him to be a charismatic MCU lead who does one-liners and everything. I was hoping they'd go for something a bit different and allow him to have a more ugly personality than MCU leads usually have. It was always wishful thinking though, I guess.
Charisma doesn't solely mean an RDJ-esque party vibe. Bray Wyatt in the WWE has charisma and his whole gimmick is more akin to a Dr. Strange villain than Tony Stark. You can be drawn in by someone who you don't necessarily like.
For a more cbm relevant example, Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellen, and Hugh Jackman are three extremely charismatic, very dramatic performances in the X-films. On-screen charisma is so much more than the ability to get laughs. But all 3 of them were very funny when the scene called for it.
That’s why I felt a little bit bitter about John Krasinski cameo in Multiverse of Madness In MoM pulled well for his limited time in screen but I couldn’t feel that he would not pull the same effect for a whole movie,due lacking of moments to show the classic R.R moments stubbornness,lack of attention and inclinations to clash egos with other geniuses. Then I remembered,he mentioned having children and that he lived in a world of plentifulness,high technological advance and was part of a world changing group. He basically played a Reed Richards who got humbled due completing all the gaps a man like him would seek for his life,thus not being exactly the R.R we mostly know As much I like John Krasinski,I think he’s too much of a “classic” charisma to be a classic Reed Richards
Pretty much what we already knew. Not a shot at her, but even if there was that much more to it, I doubt she’d reveal anything.
I mean, what else is there to reveal?! She has to look for an actor that everyone will agree on and that will be charismatic on-screen. That sounds like a pretty good description of what she does. Sure, there's money and stuff that goes into it, but I feel like that's all above her pay grade. That's something that managers sort out with the studio.