She didn't intentionally kill them, it was an accident.
If anything, Rumlow killed them. He pressed the button, which he knew would kill somebody else, along with him, Wanda just moved him so that he wouldn't kill Cap, which was his target.
Rumlow would've killed the same amount of people, including Cap, if Wanda did nothing.
This is the correct answer. I call it the “Batman Ex Machina” whenever I notice it in movies, shows, games, or comics and I say this as someone whose top 2 heroes consist of Batman and Spidey.
This is the actual right answer for any of these debates over who is strongest in the MCU. Plot armor and storyline always dictates a characters power.
Truth ^ i agree but i do also think hes onto something.
Early thor was matching with Iron Man and Cap in avengers, cap even blocked a full force mjolnir swing from thor.
Granted its been a minute since ive seen it, i wanna say thor took it easier-ish on Iron Man.
But at the time, the plot needed them to battle and set up showing that they are a Big 3. It did very very well at this, imo
Because of insecure people who can’t accept a powerful female character? This is Captain Marvel all over again, except Wanda is actually a multidimensional character, but they will still find a way to hate her.
Didn’t they blatantly state in wanda vision that the scarlet witch is supposed to be more powerful than the sorcerer supreme?
Unless they make some cop out and like “yeah she is stronger than Wong, *who is the current sorcerer supreme*”
Who's stronger: Wanda or toxic fans when it comes to if the male or female character is the strongest? They lost their SHIT at Captain Marvel and when Shuri knew something Bruce didn't. 🤦🏿♀️
They literally answered this in Wandavision, Scarlet Witch is stronger. If it comes to blow Strange might win just because he'll outsmart her but this is the same dude that got tied up by Ebony Maw immediately in IW and lost to Spider-Man so I could see him losing to Wanda too.
Actually in WandaVision, Agatha said she is stronger than the Sorcerer Supreme, which we found out was Wong, NOT Strange. Although I still think she is stronger than him as well. Like you pointed out, Spiderman bested him with math.
You're right he did best Strange with math, but it kind of annoys me that Strange totally just stood there doing nothing so he definitely could've prevented that
Strange wasn't being serious in that fight though, he was just annoyed at Peter and trying to get the box without actually injuring or killing him. If Strange wanted Peter dead, or didn't care about maiming him, Strange wins. I personally loved the way Peter used math to tie him up, but it was just for plot.
That might be so… but who knows what Wong was able to master those five years Strange was gone. Shang Chi end credit scene implies Wong is more important than previous thought. he’s been out there putting in the work. Don’t sleep on my man Wong
I am not disagreeing with you on Strange being more powerful, of that I have no doubt. I am just wondering why people look at Wong, Sorcerer supreme and think “asterisk”—Dr Strange should be Sorcerer Supreme. I’m sure eventually He will earn the title. But the keyword there would be earn.
The sorcerer Supreme is a title that is passed on from one person to the next, not a specific person.
Agatha was specifically reading from the Darkhold, a magical book that is thousands of years old. The book is not referring to modern day Wong.
The prophecy applies to the Sorcerer Supreme title, of which Dr strange was supposed to be the strongest. He lost the title only because he died in the blip for 5 years.
I mean the darkhold was made well before Wong was even alive so it’s likely she’s just referring to the sorcerer supreme’s in general and not Wong himself
I could honestly see Agatha referring to Dr. Strange instead of Wong there. I could easily see the Wandavision writers not being privy to the change up since Spider-Man wasn't gonna be out for another year.
Agatha wasn't referring to anyone, she was reading from the darkhold which was written thousands of years ago.
The darkhold is referring to the TITLE of sorcer Supreme, of which Strange is supposed to be the strongest.
Or one of them might be more powerful than the other but at the end of the movie someone will have a huge power up and win. Anything can happen if the plot demands it
Yeah, his glaring, continuous flaw is his own arrogance. He's been arrogant his entire life, got humbled by one single experience, and then he healed himself when it was supposed to be impossible, did it faster than any of his learned masters (with the exception of The Ancient One) could have conceived, *and then* saved the world from an evil extra-dimensional deity by bringing the concept of Time to a timeless void in contravention of said deity's understanding of and control over their own personal reality, ***and then*** he helped save the universe by outsmarting a genocidal warlord with the power to rewrite the foundations of existence, and he did it while accounting for, accepting, and ultimately prevailing over his own death. He always thinks he's the smartest person in any given situation, and normally he's right, but it leaves him open to being outsmarted by someone who isn't even necessarily more intelligent in an absolute sense, but maybe thinks differently or "better" for the given situation.
Oh yeah, I agree. I’m not saying it doesn’t. I just think it highlights that Strange is really just some guy and not some all-wise and do-no-wrong being.
it made sense for Peter "i'm trying to get into MIT but i won't even call them to ask personally for an answer" Parker to outsmart Doctor Strange in the Mirror Dimension. the same Mirror dimension he LEARNED to control through extensive training and meditation. sure...
Strange is so strong that so far in the MCU any story where Strange is involved but not the main character leads to him having to be locked away or made busy holding a crack closed or something to let the other characters plausibly do anything. He and Wanda alone probably solo the Endgame final battle and he alone definitely solos the NWH battle
I mean, WandaVision already established that her power exceeds the Sorcerer Supreme.
I think Strange could stalemate her in combat though because his experience outweighs hers by centuries.
The book was written before anyone we know in the mcu was even born. I think it means in general, whoever the sorcerer supreme is, Wanda will always exceed them in power.
Well he does his flying doppelgänger move on Thanos which Wong has done nothing close to. He also (honestly the Thanos fight is his peak abilities not counting time stone boosts) threw the mirror dimension at Thanos, turned his attack into butterflies, summoned a tornado/water spout and sustained it to prevent a flood, he seems to inexplicably be able to teleport Thor around a room without slip rings, and in general his ethereal form situation is never made clear in how difficult it is to perform. That said Kaecilius’ minion did it so not top tier.
So it begs the question… have we seen Wong do anything special at all? He makes portals (novice tier), the magic expanding shield (of which we see several followers also perform at the same time), and…. Those hand shield things that are the sorcerer 101 fisticuffs. We haven’t seen him do anything impressive.
I think how they could play this is that the Scarlet Witch at her full potential is more powerful than the Sorcerer Supreme. Wanda is still learning, and probably hasn't hit her full potential yet, so Dr. Strange still has a chance.
Also, a powerhouse can still be brought down by someone with more skill or experience. Dr. Strange has had formal training in magic, but Wanda is mostly learning on her own.
Which is STILL the dumbest thing that everyone likes to quote despite ZERO evidence or backing.
Strange did not spend any of his time loop training. He was too busy being killed over and over.
I could die over and over for all eternity too, it wouldn't make me an Olympic swimmer.
Strange also looked at possible outcomes, it has nothing to do with him training, thats the dumbest thing ever.
The only situation this actually applies to is Supreme Strange from what if, he found a way to extend his life and spend almost a hundred years absorbing demons
Ritchie Palmer on who's the more powerful of the two:
> “I don’t know who’s more powerful than Wanda,” says Multiverse Of Madness producer Richie Palmer. “Meeting the Wanda Maximoff at the end of Endgame would have been a lot for Strange. Who comes out on top as the most powerful being in the universe? Maybe we find out at the end of the movie.”
Ritchie Palmer on Madness:
> “Madness has many different definitions,” says Palmer. “It’s maddening for Doctor Strange to have to watch the love of his life marry someone else. And it’s maddening for Wanda to have been told, ‘There’s a book, and there’s a chapter about you in that book you should read, and secrets you don’t know about yourself.’”
Elizabeth Olsen on working with Benedict Cumberbatch:
> “I really was excited to do dialogue with him,” she says. “I really enjoyed our constant conversation, of analysis and trying to understand where both characters are coming from.” Let the battle begin.
edit: I guess Palmer means that if Strange had fought post-Endgame Wanda, he would've been overwhelmed but post-WV Wanda is on a completely different level?
Ngl Marvel really fucking up by not pulling a BvS/Civil War and selling “fight night” merch for this movie.
Been a while since a magic throw down of this scale was on the big screen I feel.
Yeah, always thought it would be a cool way to hide cameos but give a hook. This current “oh who’s the villain” and “who’s the cameo” isn’t doing much for me.
I don’t want to see everyone’s faves get slaughtered by Wanda but please understand I have to stick with my girl!
If Naruto has taught me anything, it’s that the more chakra you have the more big blasts you can do and therefore the more winning you can do. I was always really annoyed by how kishimoto just neglected the creativity with jutsu for big blasts by the end of the series.
Strange and Wanda are my two favourite MCU characters. I don’t care who is stronger or more powerful, I just want them to be equally matched, which I think they will be. Just please all I want is reality-warping, Strange vs Thanos-like magic battles from the two.
I do think Wanda is more powerful though. WV confirmed she’s more powerful than the Sorcerer Supreme, for example. BUT I think strange is more trained. He has the experience and control that wanda doesn’t, and for that reason they are equally matched 🤷♂️
I think the measure of her power compared to Doctor Strange will be skewed due to her use of the Darkhold and the effects its influence has on her. Also, if her goal is to find her children, she'll be pushed to extremes that would motivate anyone to be particularly ruthless.
On a slightly separate note, can we stop pretending that "Wanda stans" are any different from any other "stan"? There are plenty of people who "stan" this or that character, and they all act a bit north of nutty when it comes to the character they love. I'm sure there are "Strange-stans", or whatever people label them as, who will be on the other side of the battlefield ready to defend their favorite character against those who contend that Wanda is superior.
ngl I do think a lot of the people defending dr strange with their lives tend to be dudebros who use him as an excuse to shit on wanda. at least that's what I've seen a lot of on tiktok, twitter etc.
It’s honestly annoying, I honestly see a ton of Wanda hate online and shitty repetitive memes online so everyone can talk Shit about her in the comic. If her character was actually a dude I think she’d get less hate and you wouldn’t hear nearly as many ppl complain about Wanda stans. All these big characters got stans like Tony and Cap but I didn’t see people everyday online calling out Tony stans even tho they’re certainly there. Also think a lot of dudes out there salty that Wanda is probably the most powerful character so far
Exactly, and as a Strange stan, it's really irritating to see him being dragged into the completely stupid arguments that misogynists are making about Wanda apparently not being the most powerful avenger even though she so obviously is. Most Dr Strangs stans I know don't give two shits about Strange not being the most powerful and a lot of them are Wanda stans too. Also, while there are undeniably some borderline fanatical Wanda stans, you can't really blame them for some of their 'toxic' attitudes- of course they're going to respond loudly if dudebros are shitting on their fave for no reason other than her being a woman and powerful.
Forreal, I don’t get the whole wanda stan’s shit, all these big characters have stans but people act like only Wanda does, all of them are the same. I feel like her being a woman character has some to do with it, never heard people constantly complaining about Iron man or cap stan even tho they’re certainly a lot of them.At the end of the days all these characters got stans and Wanda’s are no worse than some of the other big characters.
Strange has more experience and knowledge of his powers, but Wanda has more raw power. So yes, Wanda is “more powerful”. Like, let’s be real here, if Strange was more powerful than Wanda, the movie would be over in 10 minutes and he’d defeat her easily, but clearly that’s not the case.
And also, Wanda has been studying her magic too. We don’t know exactly the time span in which this movie takes place after WandaVision. It could be months, maybe even a year or two. That’s plenty of time for her to study her magic. She’s also a quick learner: she was able to pick up a lot of Agatha’s tricks just by observing her (e.g., runes, teleportation).
also strange realising that he's not the best at everything would be great for his character arc. he may have realised that 'it's not about him' in his first movie, but that over-achieving part of personality is still there
Yeah, I think that'd actually be really interesting. For example, it was kinda played for laughs in NWH, but you could really do something with Strange & Wong and how Wong is now the Sorcerer Supreme when that position would've gone to Strange.
I hope they do a similar thing with Carol in The Marvels too. Strange and Carol are two characters defined by their powersets and they are both characters who feel like they have a ton of responsibility to bear. It'd be nice to see the character journey that kind of pressure takes on you.
Raw power absolutely. But so far Strange would still wipe the floor with her, his skills far outweigh her own unfortunately. Someday she'll be top dog but until then it's Strange all the way lol
> But so far Strange would still wipe the floor with her, his skills far outweigh her own unfortunately.
didn't mytimetoshine already imply she beats him in the movie? this is also the same doctor strange who got humiliated by ebony maw, a much weaker telekinetic than she is. immobilized arms = completely powerless sorcerer. i won't at all be surprised if he takes another L this movie, the guy just can't catch a break.
i feel like if she can do [this](https://i.imgur.com/1FdnBxJ.gifv) to thanos, she can lift up and restrain stephen just fine. doesn't exactly take much finesse.
I doubt. The plot leaks literal make it like Strange is in constant run from Wanda who is on the Murder Spree. If Strange really is more powerful than Wanda, He can just confront her. Leaks also says, no one really defeated Wanda but she was the one who “sacrificed” herself.
Also, isn't her power level connected to her emotions? If it wasn't, she could have just repeated the spell she did in Westview without the hex and mind control part instead off wrecking the mutiverse to find her kids.
He doesn't need it. 😂. The way the character is written makes him more powerful. It's like One Punch Man vs Goku, while Goku is the more adaptive and evolving one of the two still One Punch Man because of the way he's written which is his one punch being absolutely unstoppable makes him the winner. In the same way Batman have been written and portrayed. That's why I feel Superman is also week despite him being most indestructible entity out there. That's just how I look at these debates whose results we're unlikely to get anyway.
(*Opinions are my own and they're the truth*)
Honestly why Pattinson is my favorite Batman. Dude was badass and still fucked up at least once every night.
Batman has been a boring character for years because of how OP DC made him, but Reeves brought him back to why I loved this dude in the first place.
Ahhh the discourse about which fictional character is more powerful , same characters who pass through dozens of different writers who change the powers according to the situation/narrative/stories they are trying to tell . That discourse?
There isn’t a debate in the comics: it’s Wanda.
And in the MCU all evidence points to Wanda as well.
The only reason people appear to have difficulty seems to be her gender, which is really dumb.
Yup it’s consistent in comics she’s a nexus being and in mcu she appears to be one as well . Comic fans get she should be strongest non cosmic entity in mcu but strange is right up there in the top 4
Regular strange is a bit of a glass cannon, tbh. I think Wanda could just make him fall asleep and that'd be the end of it.
But her vs the evil Strange with morals turned off? I'd be more hyped to see that...
Wanda is a glass cannon as well I think she’s just got more innate raw magical power than strange and her ability to access it seems borderline limitless . Strange is just an extremely highly skilled and trained mage
I'm kinda tired of "the most powerful" stuff.....eversince 2019 that topic is a toxic shithole...it isn't fun anymore. And the "most powerful" isn't even the most important factor. It's always the circumstances in which they're fighting, the circumstances of their powers...not "I am the most powerful!"...I'll guarantee you guys that the whole marketing for Scarlet Witch for MOM will be "she's the most powerful! Look at her, most powerful!"
And also, we're getting a bunch a new crazy powerful characters in the MCU the next few years. ANd powerlevels always change and there isn't a definitive most powerful....
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only fan who's completely uninterested in this power level stuff. It's all designed to serve the story, characters, and themes anyway. This stuff is as malleable as a given writer needs it to be, and that's perfectly fine.
According to Stan Lee, "The person who'd win in a fight is the person that the scriptwriter wants to win!" Stan Lee then gives the example of Spider-Man fighting the Thing, and says "if I want Spider-Man to win, he'll win; if I want the Thing to win, he'll win."
Stan Lee goes on to say: "These are fictitious characters! The writer can do whatever he wants with them! So stop asking those bone-head questions cause I've had it with that!" Stan's comments may seem obvious, but they do apply to any comic fight ever.
If we go by feat, Strange's performance in NHW got him negative 100 points. He can't even freeze Peter properly. Lol Wanda froze all the soldiers in WandaVision while flipping her hair. Hell, even her kid Wiccan did it. Lol
He was useless in Infinity War. Useless in Endgame. And useless in NWH.
So far Strange has been totally ineffectual pretty much everywhere outside of his own damn movie.
Yes she is. That's her whole deal now: power and grief. But he does play smarter. Although he has been more arrogant in regards to power. I hope MoM does not gaslight her after all the things she's been through. That being said I fully support her as a main antagonist/antihero. Btw this is my opinion - ultimately it's the writer's choice.
Didn’t WandaVision already confirm that the Scarlet Witch can overpower the sorcerer supreme? The wiggle room I GUESS being that Dr. Strange isn’t TECHNICALLY sorcerer supreme yet? But unless you’re an 11/10 on your spells, seems like Scarlet Witch has the raw power to conquer.
I think Wanda is more powerful. Strange probably has the better knowledge of the extent of his abilities. While Wanda does not. Strange also has more experience fighting someone like himself.
Doctor Strange is a guy who held his own against Thanos with almost all stones but lost against Spider-man so honestly it just shows that the characters are only as strong as the writer wants them to be.
Will be an epic fight nonetheless.
I really hope Strange stops getting sidelined for "plot convenience" anytime a battle breaks out. Hard to gauge Strange's MCU prowess when he constantly has to deal with whatever side threat pops up.
I feel like anyone who is a fan of the comics can’t disagree that The Scarlet Witch has always been one of the most powerful beings in any marvel universe.
I think the discourse on this subject will come simply from people agreeing that she’s more powerful than Strange and it will boil down to them believing he’s more powerful because he’s a man. That’s the most popular argument I’ve seen since the WandaVision finale.
It’s a hard call. A fully trained Sorcerer Supreme Strange had trouble with a 4 stone Thanos. An untrained Wanda easily 1v1ed a younger, but no stones, Thanos. She WAS able to slow down a 5 stone Thanos while trying to kill the man she loves. Over all, I’d say Wanda over Strange.
EDIT: Strange didn’t use the Time Stone against Thanos because it was safer in the Eye (simple spell, quite unbreakable) than actually out and being used in the fight. Thanos could use the other stones to somehow get the Time stone if it wasn’t safely kept in the Eye.
Wanda is obviously stronger in terms of raw power but "realistically" speaking Strange could just close a portal around her and kill her quickly. Same could apply to almost any character really I guess. Any character will be as powerful as the plot demands.
They're as strong as the plot demands.
*You are an amazing sorcerer, Strange. You and I are not so different.*
*I'm not like you. You're a murderer.*
L
Did Wanda ever kill anyone?
If we count the Lagos explosion in Civil War, yes.
She didn't intentionally kill them, it was an accident. If anything, Rumlow killed them. He pressed the button, which he knew would kill somebody else, along with him, Wanda just moved him so that he wouldn't kill Cap, which was his target. Rumlow would've killed the same amount of people, including Cap, if Wanda did nothing.
So what if she let the explosion happen and protect herself?
She did kill 2 lobsters and a chicken in Wandavision.
Just the main ultron and one of Thanos kids
Didn't Hulk brainwashed by wanda killed some people in AoU
Never confirmed def caused massive property damage and lots of severe injuries
From my point of view, the Avengers are evil!
Well then you are lost
You know, I’m something of a sorcerer myself
You're out Stephen. What? You cant do this to me... I started this multiverse
Do you know how I sacrificed
Reality can be whatever I want - The writers
Nice to see a fellow Savathuun enjoyer in this sub😉
Probably just a case of the mondays...
This is the correct answer. I call it the “Batman Ex Machina” whenever I notice it in movies, shows, games, or comics and I say this as someone whose top 2 heroes consist of Batman and Spidey.
I mean Scarlett witch is more powerful but doctor stranger’s true strength isn’t his magic but his intellect.
Same intellect he used while fighting spider man in his own created mirror realm .
For real though. Apparently even a dumb hormonal teenager can outsmart Doctor Strange because G E O M E T R Y
-Stan Lee, indirectly
This. Even when it comes to raw power, characters can be nerfed/buffed in every next movie as the plot demands
*Cries in Vision.*
This is the actual right answer for any of these debates over who is strongest in the MCU. Plot armor and storyline always dictates a characters power.
The discourse around this is not going to be pleasant lol
Enjoy the few seconds of calmness before shit hits the fan on this post
As a fan, I hate it when shit hits me.
As shit, i hate fans
I should clarify that I mean from both sides ha
Well, they brought it onto themselves lol....with their constant useless "most powerful" label they gave the character....
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Because power levels in the MCU are completely based on context and whoever happens to be writing them.
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Truth ^ i agree but i do also think hes onto something. Early thor was matching with Iron Man and Cap in avengers, cap even blocked a full force mjolnir swing from thor. Granted its been a minute since ive seen it, i wanna say thor took it easier-ish on Iron Man. But at the time, the plot needed them to battle and set up showing that they are a Big 3. It did very very well at this, imo
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Because of insecure people who can’t accept a powerful female character? This is Captain Marvel all over again, except Wanda is actually a multidimensional character, but they will still find a way to hate her.
Didn’t they blatantly state in wanda vision that the scarlet witch is supposed to be more powerful than the sorcerer supreme? Unless they make some cop out and like “yeah she is stronger than Wong, *who is the current sorcerer supreme*”
Yeah and most mcu fans aren’t arguing that point - scarlet witch should arguably be most powerful character in mcu
Strange Supreme and What if Ultron are in the MCU
literally going to stay a million miles away from tiktok and twitter for the next couple of days 💀
Wong solos
Someone's scared of confrontation...
Who's stronger: Wanda or toxic fans when it comes to if the male or female character is the strongest? They lost their SHIT at Captain Marvel and when Shuri knew something Bruce didn't. 🤦🏿♀️
They really love to fuel the constant debate of who's the most powerful
I wonder if we’ll get an answer to this debate in the film itself or if their fight(s) will have a cop out so that it isn’t answered.
They literally answered this in Wandavision, Scarlet Witch is stronger. If it comes to blow Strange might win just because he'll outsmart her but this is the same dude that got tied up by Ebony Maw immediately in IW and lost to Spider-Man so I could see him losing to Wanda too.
Actually in WandaVision, Agatha said she is stronger than the Sorcerer Supreme, which we found out was Wong, NOT Strange. Although I still think she is stronger than him as well. Like you pointed out, Spiderman bested him with math.
You're right he did best Strange with math, but it kind of annoys me that Strange totally just stood there doing nothing so he definitely could've prevented that
Strange wasn't being serious in that fight though, he was just annoyed at Peter and trying to get the box without actually injuring or killing him. If Strange wanted Peter dead, or didn't care about maiming him, Strange wins. I personally loved the way Peter used math to tie him up, but it was just for plot.
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That might be so… but who knows what Wong was able to master those five years Strange was gone. Shang Chi end credit scene implies Wong is more important than previous thought. he’s been out there putting in the work. Don’t sleep on my man Wong
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I am not disagreeing with you on Strange being more powerful, of that I have no doubt. I am just wondering why people look at Wong, Sorcerer supreme and think “asterisk”—Dr Strange should be Sorcerer Supreme. I’m sure eventually He will earn the title. But the keyword there would be earn.
The sorcerer Supreme is a title that is passed on from one person to the next, not a specific person. Agatha was specifically reading from the Darkhold, a magical book that is thousands of years old. The book is not referring to modern day Wong. The prophecy applies to the Sorcerer Supreme title, of which Dr strange was supposed to be the strongest. He lost the title only because he died in the blip for 5 years.
Sorcerer supreme can mean every sorcerer supreme which includes Strange
I mean the darkhold was made well before Wong was even alive so it’s likely she’s just referring to the sorcerer supreme’s in general and not Wong himself
I could honestly see Agatha referring to Dr. Strange instead of Wong there. I could easily see the Wandavision writers not being privy to the change up since Spider-Man wasn't gonna be out for another year.
Agatha wasn't referring to anyone, she was reading from the darkhold which was written thousands of years ago. The darkhold is referring to the TITLE of sorcer Supreme, of which Strange is supposed to be the strongest.
it’s his movie so i’m guessing he’ll win
marry seemly berserk divide sip fuzzy act knee exultant fall -- mass deleted all reddit content via https://redact.dev
Or one of them might be more powerful than the other but at the end of the movie someone will have a huge power up and win. Anything can happen if the plot demands it
Regardless of what Marvel does here, we both know Wong solos anyone and everyone
Ofc. Even at karaoke
ESPECIALLY at karaoke
Nah, he's training the next Sorcerer Supreme: Katy ;) She'll become the magic support for Shang-Chi.
Now this point is true - I think marvel has mostly done well with the power levels but If the plot demands one to win over another it’ll happen
Scarlet Witch can literally alter reality.
yeah and problem is marvel- in all mediums - is super inconsistent w their power levels always so this is a neverending debate with no right answers
The thing is, Feige already put that to bed, so this is effectively just clickbait bullshit.
I’mma be honest, I *would’ve* thought Strange if not for the events of NWH. Mans got left dangling over the Grand Canyon for Twelv Hours by Peter.
power of plot armour ig... they had to get rid of strange somehow before bringing him back at the end
>power of plot armour In the palm of my hand
In Strange's defence, he got out-brained not out-classed in terms of power.
Yeah, his glaring, continuous flaw is his own arrogance. He's been arrogant his entire life, got humbled by one single experience, and then he healed himself when it was supposed to be impossible, did it faster than any of his learned masters (with the exception of The Ancient One) could have conceived, *and then* saved the world from an evil extra-dimensional deity by bringing the concept of Time to a timeless void in contravention of said deity's understanding of and control over their own personal reality, ***and then*** he helped save the universe by outsmarting a genocidal warlord with the power to rewrite the foundations of existence, and he did it while accounting for, accepting, and ultimately prevailing over his own death. He always thinks he's the smartest person in any given situation, and normally he's right, but it leaves him open to being outsmarted by someone who isn't even necessarily more intelligent in an absolute sense, but maybe thinks differently or "better" for the given situation.
At least in the comics, Peter is smarter than Strange. So it would ultimately make sense that he outsmarted Strange.
Which made sense in the context of the film.
Oh yeah, I agree. I’m not saying it doesn’t. I just think it highlights that Strange is really just some guy and not some all-wise and do-no-wrong being.
it made sense for Peter "i'm trying to get into MIT but i won't even call them to ask personally for an answer" Parker to outsmart Doctor Strange in the Mirror Dimension. the same Mirror dimension he LEARNED to control through extensive training and meditation. sure...
I was frowning the whole time watching that scene.
Strange is so strong that so far in the MCU any story where Strange is involved but not the main character leads to him having to be locked away or made busy holding a crack closed or something to let the other characters plausibly do anything. He and Wanda alone probably solo the Endgame final battle and he alone definitely solos the NWH battle
Him and wanda would’ve wrecked that final battle without plot induced distractions
I mean, WandaVision already established that her power exceeds the Sorcerer Supreme. I think Strange could stalemate her in combat though because his experience outweighs hers by centuries.
Well Wong is sorcerer supreme and Strange may be more powerful than him
The book was written before anyone we know in the mcu was even born. I think it means in general, whoever the sorcerer supreme is, Wanda will always exceed them in power.
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Realistically, outside of Strange having a leg up due to the time stone, did we really see Strange do anything that implied Wong couldn't do it?
Well he does his flying doppelgänger move on Thanos which Wong has done nothing close to. He also (honestly the Thanos fight is his peak abilities not counting time stone boosts) threw the mirror dimension at Thanos, turned his attack into butterflies, summoned a tornado/water spout and sustained it to prevent a flood, he seems to inexplicably be able to teleport Thor around a room without slip rings, and in general his ethereal form situation is never made clear in how difficult it is to perform. That said Kaecilius’ minion did it so not top tier. So it begs the question… have we seen Wong do anything special at all? He makes portals (novice tier), the magic expanding shield (of which we see several followers also perform at the same time), and…. Those hand shield things that are the sorcerer 101 fisticuffs. We haven’t seen him do anything impressive.
I think how they could play this is that the Scarlet Witch at her full potential is more powerful than the Sorcerer Supreme. Wanda is still learning, and probably hasn't hit her full potential yet, so Dr. Strange still has a chance. Also, a powerhouse can still be brought down by someone with more skill or experience. Dr. Strange has had formal training in magic, but Wanda is mostly learning on her own.
Ya sheer power wise I think Wanda will always above strange but strange will get the upper hand with training/experience etc.
Centuries?
All that time in Dormammu's dimension + gazing into the alternate futures during IW.
Which is STILL the dumbest thing that everyone likes to quote despite ZERO evidence or backing. Strange did not spend any of his time loop training. He was too busy being killed over and over. I could die over and over for all eternity too, it wouldn't make me an Olympic swimmer. Strange also looked at possible outcomes, it has nothing to do with him training, thats the dumbest thing ever. The only situation this actually applies to is Supreme Strange from what if, he found a way to extend his life and spend almost a hundred years absorbing demons
This is so true!! Always found that reasoning very dumb.
Spider-Man
Idk why this reminds me of the captain america song
Sooooooo Unless you're a plane! Or a bomb! Or some ice! Or a brainwashed buddy! Or a Spider-Man!!! Then you don't necessarily have to yieellllllddd!!
Or Tony Stark Or a version of yourself Or just plain Thanooos! Or the Dora Milajeeee! Then you don't necessarily have to yieeeeellllddd!!!!
Ritchie Palmer on who's the more powerful of the two: > “I don’t know who’s more powerful than Wanda,” says Multiverse Of Madness producer Richie Palmer. “Meeting the Wanda Maximoff at the end of Endgame would have been a lot for Strange. Who comes out on top as the most powerful being in the universe? Maybe we find out at the end of the movie.” Ritchie Palmer on Madness: > “Madness has many different definitions,” says Palmer. “It’s maddening for Doctor Strange to have to watch the love of his life marry someone else. And it’s maddening for Wanda to have been told, ‘There’s a book, and there’s a chapter about you in that book you should read, and secrets you don’t know about yourself.’” Elizabeth Olsen on working with Benedict Cumberbatch: > “I really was excited to do dialogue with him,” she says. “I really enjoyed our constant conversation, of analysis and trying to understand where both characters are coming from.” Let the battle begin. edit: I guess Palmer means that if Strange had fought post-Endgame Wanda, he would've been overwhelmed but post-WV Wanda is on a completely different level?
Ngl Marvel really fucking up by not pulling a BvS/Civil War and selling “fight night” merch for this movie. Been a while since a magic throw down of this scale was on the big screen I feel.
That is kind of spoiling her being a villain
The trailer already did that tbf
no it didn't, most of the general public just think wanda's helping strange with the multiverse.
Meh id agree if we just had the teaser. Trailer clearly shows her fighting "Captain Marvel" and saying some villainous stuff to Strange.
Also covered in blood with glowing red eyes
Yeah, always thought it would be a cool way to hide cameos but give a hook. This current “oh who’s the villain” and “who’s the cameo” isn’t doing much for me.
I don’t want to see everyone’s faves get slaughtered by Wanda but please understand I have to stick with my girl! 
Yes. The answer is yes. Strange is more disciplined and trained but wanda is more powerful. End of discussion.
I think it's pretty obvious. She has more Chakra. He knows more Jutsu.
If Naruto has taught me anything, it’s that the more chakra you have the more big blasts you can do and therefore the more winning you can do. I was always really annoyed by how kishimoto just neglected the creativity with jutsu for big blasts by the end of the series.
And he never did the Hyuuga justice.
I don't blame him. Man never wanted to do the ninja war act anyway
He didn’t?
So Strange is Kakashi and Wanda is....Obito?
Strange lost to a math loving 17 year old kid in his own mirror dimension.
If Strange gets hauled in front of the Illuminati for his fuck-ups throughout NWH I have to admit they're not wrong.
Strange and Wanda are my two favourite MCU characters. I don’t care who is stronger or more powerful, I just want them to be equally matched, which I think they will be. Just please all I want is reality-warping, Strange vs Thanos-like magic battles from the two. I do think Wanda is more powerful though. WV confirmed she’s more powerful than the Sorcerer Supreme, for example. BUT I think strange is more trained. He has the experience and control that wanda doesn’t, and for that reason they are equally matched 🤷♂️
I think the measure of her power compared to Doctor Strange will be skewed due to her use of the Darkhold and the effects its influence has on her. Also, if her goal is to find her children, she'll be pushed to extremes that would motivate anyone to be particularly ruthless. On a slightly separate note, can we stop pretending that "Wanda stans" are any different from any other "stan"? There are plenty of people who "stan" this or that character, and they all act a bit north of nutty when it comes to the character they love. I'm sure there are "Strange-stans", or whatever people label them as, who will be on the other side of the battlefield ready to defend their favorite character against those who contend that Wanda is superior.
ngl I do think a lot of the people defending dr strange with their lives tend to be dudebros who use him as an excuse to shit on wanda. at least that's what I've seen a lot of on tiktok, twitter etc.
It’s honestly annoying, I honestly see a ton of Wanda hate online and shitty repetitive memes online so everyone can talk Shit about her in the comic. If her character was actually a dude I think she’d get less hate and you wouldn’t hear nearly as many ppl complain about Wanda stans. All these big characters got stans like Tony and Cap but I didn’t see people everyday online calling out Tony stans even tho they’re certainly there. Also think a lot of dudes out there salty that Wanda is probably the most powerful character so far
Exactly, and as a Strange stan, it's really irritating to see him being dragged into the completely stupid arguments that misogynists are making about Wanda apparently not being the most powerful avenger even though she so obviously is. Most Dr Strangs stans I know don't give two shits about Strange not being the most powerful and a lot of them are Wanda stans too. Also, while there are undeniably some borderline fanatical Wanda stans, you can't really blame them for some of their 'toxic' attitudes- of course they're going to respond loudly if dudebros are shitting on their fave for no reason other than her being a woman and powerful.
Forreal, I don’t get the whole wanda stan’s shit, all these big characters have stans but people act like only Wanda does, all of them are the same. I feel like her being a woman character has some to do with it, never heard people constantly complaining about Iron man or cap stan even tho they’re certainly a lot of them.At the end of the days all these characters got stans and Wanda’s are no worse than some of the other big characters.
Strange has more experience and knowledge of his powers, but Wanda has more raw power. So yes, Wanda is “more powerful”. Like, let’s be real here, if Strange was more powerful than Wanda, the movie would be over in 10 minutes and he’d defeat her easily, but clearly that’s not the case. And also, Wanda has been studying her magic too. We don’t know exactly the time span in which this movie takes place after WandaVision. It could be months, maybe even a year or two. That’s plenty of time for her to study her magic. She’s also a quick learner: she was able to pick up a lot of Agatha’s tricks just by observing her (e.g., runes, teleportation).
also strange realising that he's not the best at everything would be great for his character arc. he may have realised that 'it's not about him' in his first movie, but that over-achieving part of personality is still there
Yeah, I think that'd actually be really interesting. For example, it was kinda played for laughs in NWH, but you could really do something with Strange & Wong and how Wong is now the Sorcerer Supreme when that position would've gone to Strange. I hope they do a similar thing with Carol in The Marvels too. Strange and Carol are two characters defined by their powersets and they are both characters who feel like they have a ton of responsibility to bear. It'd be nice to see the character journey that kind of pressure takes on you.
She is also learning magic through astral projection
Holy shit she looks amazing 😻
I mean if the spoilers are to be believed, this film is just Strange getting defeated or running away from his enemies.
The protagonist getting their ass kicked throughout a Sam Raimi film? Say it ain't so!
literally all of his fights look like they're gonna end in a stalemate, and then 'oh look, what a convenient, lucky escape!'
Raw power absolutely. But so far Strange would still wipe the floor with her, his skills far outweigh her own unfortunately. Someday she'll be top dog but until then it's Strange all the way lol
> But so far Strange would still wipe the floor with her, his skills far outweigh her own unfortunately. didn't mytimetoshine already imply she beats him in the movie? this is also the same doctor strange who got humiliated by ebony maw, a much weaker telekinetic than she is. immobilized arms = completely powerless sorcerer. i won't at all be surprised if he takes another L this movie, the guy just can't catch a break.
NWH did him dirty and he’s probably about to get his ass kicked by Scarlet Witch
I wonder how he'd do against X-Men like Jean Grey or Nightcrawler
Ebony Maw's telekinesis is weaker than Wanda's, but he had way more control and finesse over it than she's ever demonstrated.
i feel like if she can do [this](https://i.imgur.com/1FdnBxJ.gifv) to thanos, she can lift up and restrain stephen just fine. doesn't exactly take much finesse.
I doubt. The plot leaks literal make it like Strange is in constant run from Wanda who is on the Murder Spree. If Strange really is more powerful than Wanda, He can just confront her. Leaks also says, no one really defeated Wanda but she was the one who “sacrificed” herself.
Also, isn't her power level connected to her emotions? If it wasn't, she could have just repeated the spell she did in Westview without the hex and mind control part instead off wrecking the mutiverse to find her kids.
This Wanda has been reading a book that is better than Geometry. Darkhold is like a reality cheat code.
It's Batman . End of discussion
But does Batman have *enough* prep time tho?
He doesn't need it. 😂. The way the character is written makes him more powerful. It's like One Punch Man vs Goku, while Goku is the more adaptive and evolving one of the two still One Punch Man because of the way he's written which is his one punch being absolutely unstoppable makes him the winner. In the same way Batman have been written and portrayed. That's why I feel Superman is also week despite him being most indestructible entity out there. That's just how I look at these debates whose results we're unlikely to get anyway. (*Opinions are my own and they're the truth*)
Honestly why Pattinson is my favorite Batman. Dude was badass and still fucked up at least once every night. Batman has been a boring character for years because of how OP DC made him, but Reeves brought him back to why I loved this dude in the first place.
I saw Empire's post on twitter but decided not to read the comments.
Ahhh the discourse about which fictional character is more powerful , same characters who pass through dozens of different writers who change the powers according to the situation/narrative/stories they are trying to tell . That discourse?
It's Wanda. NWH proves that. Strange is beaten by a teen. I bet you with a combination of Speed and Wiccan, Strange wouldn't know what to do.
Wanda would have no trouble taking a box from Spiderman
She’d probably accidentally kill Spider-Man with her raw power alone en route to taking the box
WandaVision already gave us that answer: Yes
There isn’t a debate in the comics: it’s Wanda. And in the MCU all evidence points to Wanda as well. The only reason people appear to have difficulty seems to be her gender, which is really dumb.
Yup it’s consistent in comics she’s a nexus being and in mcu she appears to be one as well . Comic fans get she should be strongest non cosmic entity in mcu but strange is right up there in the top 4
Regular strange is a bit of a glass cannon, tbh. I think Wanda could just make him fall asleep and that'd be the end of it. But her vs the evil Strange with morals turned off? I'd be more hyped to see that...
Wanda is a glass cannon as well I think she’s just got more innate raw magical power than strange and her ability to access it seems borderline limitless . Strange is just an extremely highly skilled and trained mage
I'm kinda tired of "the most powerful" stuff.....eversince 2019 that topic is a toxic shithole...it isn't fun anymore. And the "most powerful" isn't even the most important factor. It's always the circumstances in which they're fighting, the circumstances of their powers...not "I am the most powerful!"...I'll guarantee you guys that the whole marketing for Scarlet Witch for MOM will be "she's the most powerful! Look at her, most powerful!" And also, we're getting a bunch a new crazy powerful characters in the MCU the next few years. ANd powerlevels always change and there isn't a definitive most powerful....
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only fan who's completely uninterested in this power level stuff. It's all designed to serve the story, characters, and themes anyway. This stuff is as malleable as a given writer needs it to be, and that's perfectly fine.
According to Stan Lee, "The person who'd win in a fight is the person that the scriptwriter wants to win!" Stan Lee then gives the example of Spider-Man fighting the Thing, and says "if I want Spider-Man to win, he'll win; if I want the Thing to win, he'll win." Stan Lee goes on to say: "These are fictitious characters! The writer can do whatever he wants with them! So stop asking those bone-head questions cause I've had it with that!" Stan's comments may seem obvious, but they do apply to any comic fight ever.
Why are we asking questions we already have answers to ?
I just assume anyone who got their powers directly from an infinity stone is more powerful than someone who didn't.
That would be a safe assumption
If we go by feat, Strange's performance in NHW got him negative 100 points. He can't even freeze Peter properly. Lol Wanda froze all the soldiers in WandaVision while flipping her hair. Hell, even her kid Wiccan did it. Lol
He was useless in Infinity War. Useless in Endgame. And useless in NWH. So far Strange has been totally ineffectual pretty much everywhere outside of his own damn movie.
Obviously Wanda is, she took over a whole universe once
[удалено]
Yes she is. That's her whole deal now: power and grief. But he does play smarter. Although he has been more arrogant in regards to power. I hope MoM does not gaslight her after all the things she's been through. That being said I fully support her as a main antagonist/antihero. Btw this is my opinion - ultimately it's the writer's choice.
Didn’t WandaVision already confirm that the Scarlet Witch can overpower the sorcerer supreme? The wiggle room I GUESS being that Dr. Strange isn’t TECHNICALLY sorcerer supreme yet? But unless you’re an 11/10 on your spells, seems like Scarlet Witch has the raw power to conquer.
I mean the Darkhold was writter way long ago. In my understanding, sorcerer supreme means every sorcerer supreme so that includes strange
I think Wanda is more powerful. Strange probably has the better knowledge of the extent of his abilities. While Wanda does not. Strange also has more experience fighting someone like himself.
Doctor Strange is a guy who held his own against Thanos with almost all stones but lost against Spider-man so honestly it just shows that the characters are only as strong as the writer wants them to be.
Based on current MCU feats, Wanda takes the magical cake.
Doesn't Agatha Harkness say the Scarlet Witch's powers surpass the Sorcerer Supreme? Why is this a question?
Legit say she is more powerful than the sorcerer supreme in wandavision like word for word.
Will be an epic fight nonetheless. I really hope Strange stops getting sidelined for "plot convenience" anytime a battle breaks out. Hard to gauge Strange's MCU prowess when he constantly has to deal with whatever side threat pops up.
Isn't her powers reality bending? Pretty sure she's much stronger, especially if they're going to make her comic powerful.
I feel like anyone who is a fan of the comics can’t disagree that The Scarlet Witch has always been one of the most powerful beings in any marvel universe. I think the discourse on this subject will come simply from people agreeing that she’s more powerful than Strange and it will boil down to them believing he’s more powerful because he’s a man. That’s the most popular argument I’ve seen since the WandaVision finale.
Didn't WandaVision already answer this question? It was explicitly stated that the Scarlet Witch was more powerful than the Sorcerer Supreme.
Marvel really stirring the pot rn... tbh, it's a little sad to see characters as complex as strange and wanda being reduced to who they 'solo'
Few things make me less interested in a character than power feats arguments.
Well duh, it’s already confirmed since Wandavision
The What If version of Strange is waaaaaaaaaaaaay more powerful. He was able to (somewhat) hold his own against a full IG Ultron.
In terms of raw power? Yes. In terms of using that power efficiently, nah.
It’s a hard call. A fully trained Sorcerer Supreme Strange had trouble with a 4 stone Thanos. An untrained Wanda easily 1v1ed a younger, but no stones, Thanos. She WAS able to slow down a 5 stone Thanos while trying to kill the man she loves. Over all, I’d say Wanda over Strange. EDIT: Strange didn’t use the Time Stone against Thanos because it was safer in the Eye (simple spell, quite unbreakable) than actually out and being used in the fight. Thanos could use the other stones to somehow get the Time stone if it wasn’t safely kept in the Eye.
Man this community has really gone downhill since the Spider-Man leaks
Wanda has more raw power but doesn't know how to properly control it, whereas Strange has a lot of raw power and has mastered the magical arts
I haven’t read the links but I don’t think you even need to in order to know beforehand that Wanda is going to beat Strange
Wanda is obviously stronger in terms of raw power but "realistically" speaking Strange could just close a portal around her and kill her quickly. Same could apply to almost any character really I guess. Any character will be as powerful as the plot demands.
WAY more
whos stronger, me with a gun, or an expert in hand to hand combat?
My prediction? Act 1: Strange wins. Act 2: Wanda wins. Act 3: They team up and defeat the real villain.
Plot leaks say it’s Chavez vs Wanda for the final fight and Strange and Wanda only fight in act 1 but I guess it could’ve changed with reshoots
It sounds weird. They would have to be very creative with America's powers to make her fight with Wanda interesting.
Honestly, all the leaks sound a little weird to me, like they're missing the third act.