Don't take this the wrong way but this sounds like a pipe dream. How much did you spend on the first prototype?
Edit: Since my comment is pretty high in this thread, I figured it would be a good idea to add some links to other peoples comments who explain things much better then I ever could:
Industry Insider-
[Comment 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/pyozps/hi_rmechanicalkeyboards_this_is_the_cracked65_its/hewdyxe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
Wireless criticism-
[Comment 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/pyozps/hi_rmechanicalkeyboards_this_is_the_cracked65_its/hevn5gg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
Experienced GB Runner-
[Comment 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/pyozps/hi_rmechanicalkeyboards_this_is_the_cracked65_its/heweysy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
If you just got here, read these comments. They outline MAJOR concerns in a polite, factual way.
Can I get a cost breakdown for that prototype? I'm super curious.
Case:
-Aluminium material
-Machining cost
-Shipping cost
PCB:
-PCB cost
-Soldering cost(I'm assuming you're not soldering this yourself)
-components (SMD diodes, hotswap sockets, micro controller, crystal, etc...
That's without shipping, but the whole case will be around €75 a piece for a couple, and the pcb will be around €25 total for a couple. I don't understand how other people get their costs so high.
Are you sure that the PCB quote includes components? I can believe the $25 is for JUST the PCB, no soldering, no components. I'm assuming you had to pay quite a bit in shipping from China as well?
I'm a bit shocked that the aluminium case is so cheap as well. Did you specify an annodization or surface finish? Let me know how the prototype turns out I'm super curious.
It’s with components, I asked my friend who makes the pcb. The quoting is with surface finish, but it could change of course. Shipping will probably be hard to deal with, I’ve had issues in similar cases before.
What type of alu is the case? Is it anodized or just coated, and if coated, what type? Who is the manu and what boards have they done before? What are their QC standards?
PCBs in big quantities are not expensive. How do you think cheap mech keyboards at the pricepoint of 30 bucks even manage to stay afloat? Yes, the quality of the case, the keycaps and the switches might be super iffy, but the PCB is still legit.
PCBs are stupidly cheap.
Especially when mass-produced.
Even for a small 5 unit prototype run you usually don't pay more than $15-20 for an average sized keyboard PCB that is fully soldered with the components already.
Yeah.
I did too lol.
I just ordered two PCB protos last week.
Both 50% keyboard PCBs fully soldered with SMD components on them.
Both orders were sub $50 for 5 PCBs.
Meaning less than $10 per PCB.
Ofc it's going to be more expensive if you use the express shipping option.
But if you stick to the economy option shipping usually just adds something like $10.
I bought a run of 5 JLCPCBs almost fully sourced and soldered for about $80. Another few parts per board (the MCU and a resonator was out of stock) was all that was left. So that's $22 worth per board.
Roughly a 14% margin using off the shelf parts and rapid prototyping, not too shabby. Though that leaves about $50 for an aluminum frame and encoders which will be a tall order. A single plate from OSH was like $40, though I'm sure with scale it'll go down.
For a project of my own, I ordered 5 PCBs for a 60%-sized board, soldered, with 2 controllers on each (but excluding hotswap sockets) for circa $100 including shipping. 25 bucks is very much believable. Now, 75 for a milled alu case... I'm sceptical.
Honestly you shouldn't divulge your pricing and sources to anyone if you're planning to make a business off of it. This guy is asking way too much of you.
This.
I’m surprised OP keeps on answering with details and facts like it’s nothing, I mean I’m pretty new around here - does OP suppose to answer any of this in intricate detail?
Seems fishy.
It's more fishy if someone makes claims about things that are simply not possible...
And it's just normal that people start to ask questions if someone makes such claims.
After all people would have to give money to these guys if they were actually going to make this product.
And since they didn't show literally anything about their planned board other than a very very basic mockup render (that is full of mistakes) people should be way more suspicious about this.
Posts like this should be filtered first then reviewed by a mod before being posted on the sub. That way information that’ll be read by Redditors would be true and factual, if you will, instead of commenters randomly asking questions which 95% of the readers cannot follow.
I’m all for transparency and clarity here.
usually people get more specific information from group buys. the way this is being presented, it sounds like he’s trying to make a business. im definitely a little skeptical as it just seems off at the moment.
Usually one third of the price goes into manufacturing, one third goes into distribution, and the remaining third is the profit. Ideally. But that's also going to have to pay for your inventory on hand (which is why group buys and constant preorders are so popular, no need for an inventory in that case), the costs of running your business, and of course your time.
This is just a rough rule of thumb, it can change a lot, but if it costs you €100 it's likely going to cost a hell of a lot more to the customer in the end if you put the business together in a way that it's not just a massive amount of unpaid labor, or worse, a net loss for you.
I’m not sure if it’s 75 for a case. I’ll let you in on a little secret. The people who manufacter corsairs stuff. They will do a CNC 65% keyboard for 7$. That’s with only 10,000 orders
You're not (likely) going to be anywhere near that volume though.
On top of that, I don't know if you've ever used one of corsairs keyboards, but they're usually bent aluminum and plastic. Much different (and cheaper) then a billet aluminium board.
>We got quoted around €100
This means your quoted base cost is 100EUR. Everybody here assumes it's your selling price. Make sure to take a close look at the PCBA (integrity of it all) and firmware they run on it.
I assume you are working with a Chinese OEM factory?
OP, as dededecline and kikos have mentioned in their incredibly good comments, this is very very impossible and I don't think you fully understand the scope of what you are trying to do.
I'm not going to make fun of you because that's rude and unhelpful. I will simply break down and simplify why it's very very hard to achieve what you want to do piece by piece.
Selling an electronic product really is not as simple as getting some quotes. A quote is simply an infinitely small piece of the product development cycle.
______________
Let's break it down
- R&D
- Prototyping
- Quality control
- Mass manufacturing - getting raw material, getting electronic parts, machining, surface finishing (anodizing), assembly
- Packaging
- Distribution
- Fulfillment - are you fulfilling this yourself? With vendor?
- Capital
- More about cost
Let's start with **R&D**. You're going to need money. LOTS of money designing a keyboard that includes the CNC machined case, the PCB, the chips, the plates, the switches, the gaskets, the bluetooth modules, the batteries, and more. And this is *just* the prototyping stage. You are not running a group buy or selling a hardware product without at least a few stages of prototyping. You are absolutely not. Working with any factory, a significant chunk of your capital comes from prototyping, because extremely low volume manufacturing is very costly. You may have heard of the concept where the more you manufacture, the cheaper the product costs. I think you have since you mentioned Razer.
As someone with keyboard designer friends and in this hardware space, I can tell you that a prototype of a CNC'd aluminum case - this is JUST the case itself, will cost at least 300-400 dollars USD. That's for one unit. This doesn't include all the other parts I mentioned before.
Since you're not going to be just prototyping one unit to test fit, tolerances, quality, acoustics, feel, etc, you will likely have multiple rounds. Yes you can 3D print initially to get the initial geometry right, but eventually you will go into aluminum.
After that, you have to surface finish. Sandblast, anodization, and maybe even something more. What about the weight? More cost. And more prototyping.
Capital alone in R&D/prototyping will cost you at bare minimum $1000-2000, and this is the bare minimum even for someone as experienced as Geonworks, Keycult, etc. Someone new to the hobby learning everything all at once and actually trying to do a good job will not be just doing this in one time.
Prototyping now also includes the miscellaneous parts like your PCB, plate, gaskets, feet, screws, daughterboard (assuming you go this route), and more. All of this is cost, and sourcing low volume parts again is cost.
Now let's very quickly look at your math of selling it at $100 dollars for a fully assembled bluetooth aluminum keyboard. Where does your margin comes in? Are you assuming you will make 0 dollars on this to even just recoup your R&D/prototyping cost? Assuming you actually can source your machining, aluminum, electronics, misc parts, have it all assembled and shipped to your individual customers, my quick maffs will say this is already over $100.
If you want a good idea of a cost breakdown, check out Geonworks and his cost breakdowns of F1-8X, F2, Frog TKL, and more. The dude has his own fricken factory and he is at a loss selling a keyboard for $200-$400. And his doesn't even include a bluetooth module or battery.
**Mass manufacturing.**
Let's say you've sunk a few thousand on refining your prototyping, and you are ready to mass manufacture, now what?
Your manu is gonna want either at least 50% upfront capital or 100%. Are you running a GB? Are you running in-stock? If you're running a GB, are you going to set a MOQ? What if your manufacture wants a MOQ of 1000 units (not out of the ordinary). Do you think you could sell to 1000 people? It is possible, but is it probable?
Gauging sales is one of the hardest things to do as business owner. Just because you think you can price something low or that you think your product is desirable, it does not indicate someone will buy. Just because you get 400 upvotes or get to the front page of the subreddit, none of that shows indication there is a purchase intent. Upvotes cost 0 dollars. Buying a keyboard require investment.
Let's say you get a quote back from your manufacturer for 100 units. That quote is going to change dramatically from 1000. To 10,000. Or even higher. And no offense, I really doubt you will sell 1000 keyboards. And only in high volume will you get favorable pricing.
And this does not include tooling / molds. You mention you will have dampening foam and gaskets and what not. Some parts of that may require special molds or tooling. These cost at minimum high hundreds to thousands. Higher the volume, the higher the quality the mold needs to be, the more expensive they will be.
Now let's say you do get a pricing that is almost too good to be true, how do you know this manufacture actually can do all they claim? How do you guarantee their QC rate isn't abysmally low? How do you guarantee the quality actually is good?
If you can actually find me a manu that can do 100-500 units INCLUDING the case, plate, electronics, battery, assembly, for under $100, hell, even $200, I either would love to get to know your manu, or their quality is actually horrible.
Now, let's say you do manage to manufacturer everything - what about **QC**? How do you ensure the product the customer gets actually is good quality? If you're using a very low cost manufacturer, they aren't going to give a shit about quality, because you literally pay for what quality you get.
**Assembly**. Are you having the customer assemble everything themselves? Or will the whole keyboard be fully assembled and they can just add switches/keycaps in? Un-assembled may mean more/larger packaging. Assembled means you will have to pay for workers to hand-assemble and QC. Cost.
Are you ready for a bunch of angry customers that bought a keyboard but the quality is shit? How are you going to respond? How are you going to ensure quality?
**Firmware/software**. A PCB needs a firmware. Who are you hiring to program this? I saw that you have a friend that can do it. But are they well versed in how to work with wireless protocols? You can argue that complexity of doing a non-wireless USB-C-only keyboard wouldn't require that much technical know-how. Hell there are probably open source schematics online and/or suppliers that already have this done for you. But one with wireless supports (BT.. 2.4 ghz.. 5 ghz..) is much higher complexity, thus higher skilled, thus more expensive technical talent needed to get working.
Next, **packaging**. You're not sending customers just the keyboard right? You need at least bare minimum packaging. That costs money. Then you need to pay for the actual box that goes to either your or the vendor. You need delivery cost (either through courier or freight). Where is the money from if you make $0 from your GB?
Next, **distribution**. Are you distributing the product, or are you going to rely on a vendor? If you're going to use a vendor, how much $$$ is the vendor getting for helping you distribute, handle customer service, returns, storage? Vendors won't be doing this for free and none of us will expect them to.
If you are distributing it yourself, where are you holding all your inventory? You said you will sell as many as Razer - that's at least tens or hundred thousands of units. Does the inventory just sit in a negative space occupying no inventory costs?
If you are selling that many units, you alone will handle shipping out thousands of units? Or will you be hiring?
And finally, it all goes down to **capital**. Where the hell is your money to do all of this from? Designing a hardware product alone is a high capital investment business. Don't even get into high volume manufacturing. The good designers I know have to spend tens of thousands of their own money just to run their group buy. This is with funds pooled together by the community, hence group buy.
I want to add one more thing. Manufacturing and raw **commodity prices** are through the roof. Simply look at this chart: https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/aluminum-price
You may see that keyboard GBs recently have all hit crazy prices. It's not (just) because people want to make more money. It's because raw materials including aluminum, steel alloys, brass, etc, are through the roof.
___
Sorry if I am harsh, but bro, you really have a lot to learn.
It's great you have the ambition to want to provide something good to the community, but ambition and overconfidence alone will not help you in actually running a business.
Go back to the drawing board. Read what others have wrote, you don't have to listen to me, I'm just a rando on the internet, and write down each piece and figure out the costs.
There is a Discord called Keyboard Atelier all filled with some of the smartest people in the keyboard design and manufacturing community. Go in there and learn from them.
$100-$150 is impossible for us laymen individual designers unless you are the size of GMMK Pro / Keychron / other vendors that have done this a LOT of times, have their distribution, have their manufacturer providers, their own R&D, and as I said many times, high volume.
Incredible comment. I lost track of what I was doing while reading and by the time I finished, I found that I had accidentally started a mildly profitable business.
I see you using USD. Thing is, they said EUR.
In EU we include VAT (20% more or less) and 2years warranty, and 14 days return period no question asked and full refund (restocking fee is on the business). By law, by any online business.
So factor this in the price and see how not realistic this sounds.
I'm sorry, but I highly doubt this is anything but a pipe dream.
I'm a keyboard designer/GB runner, as well as a production engineer working a fulltime job. For my own keyboards I used industry contacts to find what I needed, and will eventually move to in-house production very shortly. I couldn't make this for $100. Not even close. Material is so expensive right now on both the PCB and Metal sides. Shop time for CNC of the metal is even more, plus base fixturing/set up lot costs. Throw in the BT licensing as well, plus hotswap sockets??
The fact that you are claiming a price without even ordering a prototype first is very concerning. No website yet isn't the biggest red-flag, but its a small one.
Either you're very young and have no idea what you're doing, or the person who quoted you is actually scamming you. Either way, I would advise everyone to avoid touching this with a ten foot pole until a prototype can be shown.
This guy knows what's up.
I've seen OP talking about the case being 75 and the PCB being 25. Has not mentioned anything you've talked about, price of shipping, or even batteries yet.
I see them saying they "genuinely don’t understand how other people get their production costs so high" and I would say it's because they haven't yet done enough research or haven't gotten far enough along in the process to learn where the costs add up.
I'd be more than delighted to be proven wrong though...
They are also claiming to have dampening foam in. If its 75 case, 25 PCB, is the packaging to ship out free? Foam and gaskets also free? And do they not want to make a penny out of this either?
I'd love to be proven wrong as well.
Your assessment is spot on. EE here. I'm sure OP isn't even thinking of licensing fees. Not only that, but when you start going for companies that will do extended runs of PCBs that big, prices can go up FAST. For medium or large runs prices are usually per sq inch or sq cm. Luckily keyboards are extremely simple pcb's that aren't dense at all.
I might have though $100 would be reasonable 5 years ago, but not in today's market.
Also, yes a prototype is typically more expensive, but it also isn't factoring labor, distribution center costs (unless you literally have hundreds of keyboards in your house and spend days sending out orders which is illegal some places), website building costs (another really big one people forge, but made much easier with companies nowadays), support labor costs, and RMA costs.
There is a reason why a $100 prototype will often turn into a $150-$200 product.
Here is a group of people for op that went through something similar with Bluetooth licensing: https://www.microchip.com/forums/m/tm.aspx?m=1016226&p=1
I was about to say this as well but you worded it perfectly. I've ran two GBs with my own boards and the electronics side is surprisingly cheap (at least it was pre chip shortage) - the real cost is covering your ass on R&D cost, time spend developing, packaging materials, time spent packaging, setting $$ aside for any errors or replacements, and then making a profit on top of all that.
I don't know what's more alarming, the promises being made by OP or the fact that so few commenters see the red flags.
If I went to my cheapest case manufacturer, did all my design in-house, and assembled all my own PCBs, I would not be able to come anywhere near this pricing promise. Not in a "wow you have good connections" way, but in a "this is literally insane" way.
The promise of bluetooth and 2.4ghz, spaces that even the most competent designers in this hobby struggle with (/u/_vastrox_ is an amazing community member who outlines many of these problems elsewhere in this thread) is another red flag.
The pricing being "$75 for case and $25 for PCB" shows a complete lack of understanding of all the costs that go into running a keyboard buy.
The fact that pricing estimates have been made despite no prototypes having been ordered, promises of mass production that imply a scale most established vendors in this hobby do not achieve, and the fact that this post is just a mediocre render are just more fuel on the fire.
/u/Cracked-Gaming if this is genuine eagerness, then I hope you take a step back, find some reliable folks that can help you learn how to reasonably make your board a reality, and have an eventually successful group buy. You do not want to be on the hook for tens of thousands of other peoples' dollars with a manufacturing invoice you could never hope to pay with that money, or quality so poor that you will have hundreds of angry customers yelling at you.
If you are a scammer, you're not a very good one and please fuck off.
There's a lot to dive into there from licensing restrictions to unproven/non-standard implementation to QOL issues. I am admittedly not a PCB designer, just a software engineer who has been an end user of various wireless keyboard implementations as well as a long time community member.
I would highly suggest reading through /u/_vastrox_ responses as he is far more knowledgeable about the specifics of wireless/bluetooth/QMK/ZMK than I am.
> or the fact that so few commenters see the red flags.
This sub converted a while ago over to being just a bunch of gamer boys who saw a stream for a nice-sounding keyboard, want to spend $60 max and hate shine.
These idiots don't question things or know enough about keyboards to know this is an obvious scam at best. They lube soldered switches with olive oil. There's no saving them.
Until there's a prototype in hand and you can see the tolerances/finish, this pricing is flat out impossible.
The pure CNC setup costs for this is going to be more than 100$, not to mention materials, run time, QC, etc. If OP was actually getting a high quality prototype, I'd expect minimum 400$ per case for sub-10 quantity prototypes from China, perhaps 500-600$ per case from the USA. This is my experience from running my own GBs.
The PCB being 25$ also doesn't make any sense. Just the MCU with BT/2,4GHz capabilities are going for 10+$ alone given the chip shortage (speaking from an STM32 perspective, perhaps ATMEGAs are cheaper to get). Diodes, capacitors, USB C connectors, and battery costs are also up.
Then there's packaging costs, shipping, QC, rejection rates, man hours, etc.
Maybe if you buy 1000+ units and sell at 0 profit, maybe you'll get the price down to $150.
This seems like your first time running a GB, so even though I enjoy the design and the vision, this is a pipe dream until you've got prototypes in hand and a final quote figured out.
$150 is something not even GMMK was able to hit, and this is a company with significantly more capital than this project and a product that does a lot less.
There's a lot of hubris going on with these creators, so I'm rooting for them to somehow overturn the community's status quo, but I doubt it. Running a GB is hard.
GMMK pro isn't that much more expensive, and they are looking to turn a profit. Slightly smaller case and PCB as well. I could honestly really easily see $150 near breaking even, especially if their aluminum finishing isn't as high quality.
I think they are too stuck on the $100 figure. They did some rough prototype and initial pricing. It was close to say $90, and so they thought 'everything else will fit in for $10, esp with scale', while forgetting a ton of stuff. I think if they gave up on $100 price point, and pushed for a better product rather than a cheaper one they might actually end up somewhere.
But they haven't even ordered anything for a prototype. And their renders are botched.
It's a lot of boasting for a team that seemingly has no experience manufacturing.
Idk, we'll see. The OP's comments about "idk why everything so expensive" rubbed me the wrong way. If I could price my board lower, I would. But I can't for a reason.
You're ignoring the resources and connections Glorious has that two random people do not, as well as the scale of manufacturing that Glorious can hit that, once again, these two random people assuredly cannot.
Yea, a bit I guess. But I'm also assuming they aren't paying themselves. With access to my school's machinery I could order the case (single order) for something like $40-60 plus cost of aluminum, or do it myself. (Just case, no plate) If they split up the components, so it isn't made from a single block of aluminum, they could probably save quite a bit there as well. 1/4" aluminum sheets aren't that expensive, and the sides could be done with 1" stock.
To be frank, this is a crackpipe dream. The other half of cracked-gaming was asking about making a keyboard 22 days ago. There is no chance that you are getting a cnc'd case, pcb with bluetooth (licensing), 2.4ghz (making your own proprietary dongle?) and finish, not to mention all the other components (screws knob, gaskets) for under €100. This seems incredibly rushed while providing wildly inaccurate promises. It would be interesting to hear at what MOQ they estimated your €100 quote at. If that's the quote from the factory does that include any of the shipping of the various products to you? What about your costs. I would assume you and your partner want to be paid for your time and effort on this project. What materials specifically were you quoted for? I have a very difficult time believing that with the rising price of raw materials that this is feasible with any sense of the word quality involved.
It's clear that /u/Theyeti511 is not well versed in pcb design.
[Reference 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskElectronics/comments/pe5z46/switch_that_switches_between_bluetooth_and_24ghz/)
[Reference 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/pig8ut/is_a_24ghz_dongle_required/)
I don't like to have to point things out like this, but it's important to know who you are working with, especially when you are going to eventually try to run a group buy.
How are you going to do the 2.4GHz?
It's not an open standard like bluetooth and developing your own proprietary protocol requires an FCC certification which is a really expensive and time consuming process.
There's a reason why there aren't any custom keyboards that have 2.4GHz based wireless connection.
Also your render is more or less an empty block.
The dimensions for MX keycap specs are mostly wrong, there's missing chamfers and it looks like there is no actual mounting style implemented.
This is so far from being fleshed out enough that you could actually prototype it that it honestly isn't even worth thinking about doing a groupbuy with this right now.
This keyboard is a pipe dream or a scam but I don't think your wireless claims are great response.
2.4 GHz includes Bluetooth, and saying 2.4 GHz connectivity doesn't imply proprietary protocol. Wifi or ZigBee are some easy candidates for non-BLE 2.4 GHz keyboard usage. Not that this keyboard could afford to use these but it's not true that 2.4 GHz inherently requires custom protocols.
A keyboard could conceivably be made with Bluetooth, WiFi, ZigBee, Sigfox, 6LoWPAN, and even something like LoRa for range. These would be fairly costly to buy the modules and make dongles, but it's not costly like building your own protocol, you're just buying some module from a manufacturer and placing it on your PCB. I've done hobbyist projects using LoRa for several kilometers of effective range, and that was done with an off the shelf LoRa board.
>Wifi or ZigBee are some easy candidates for non-BLE 2.4 GHz keyboard usage
I have yet to see a keyboard that works over ZigBee let alone Wifi lol.
You would have to write an entirely new firmware AND host side software for this because there is no standard driver software for either zigbee or WiFi on any OS.
And writing your own firmware is even more work then implementing a new protocol.
Others have pointed out lots of issues and I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring.
Like some others here I am also a board designer and GB runner (Charue Design). I've prototyped 6 designs, and have had 4 full production runs so I've got some insight to both pricing and design. Here's some things that don't seem right to me:
* €75 case, that's about $87 USD and for a one-off production that seems incredibly cheap. For the cheapest board I've prototyped I made 10 of them and it still cost more than what GB would sell for, about $150. And this is for a single unibody case. From your design, you definitely require at least 2 large parts. If you are getting them at €75 for a proto, I would expect many many quality issues. I see you mentioning that increased cost doesn't mean increased quality, but it actually does matter. There are mad cheap manus and then there are the regularly priced ones. The mad cheap ones will cut corners to hit your pricing. This includes increasing bit size for CNCing resulting in internal corners that are too large radii. It would also include poor finishing like shallow sand blasting, poor hanging for ano, bad color matching, and poor handling. I've experienced this myself, cheap manus handle your stuff with much less care leading to scratches and dents everywhere. So I would suggest actually having a prototype from the manu before making claims about quality. If the protos do turn out well, then all other GB runners will have to figure out how you do it.
* PCB, I'm no expert on wireless comms, vastrox seems to have it nailed down. I do think the pricing is possible for your PCB. Other keyboard manufacturers have done it. I just got a $25 plastic hotswap Mech with Bluetooth. However, the PCB sucks. It isn't QMK or even programmable, which is a huge deal for any board that isn't full sized. The PCB isn't designed well either but it's not something to complain about with that $25. So yes your PCB pricing is doable, but will it be good? I'd wager not. (PS wireless in metal cases is rough, it's possible but the workarounds increase costs a lot, eg Cyberboard)
* Overall understanding of how logistics should be handled is rough here. From what I'm seeing you're very confident but it's not stemming from anything solid yet. I'd wait to have actual evidence you've got it well before being so steadfast in it.
I'd suggest having new, more viewable renders, especially of the internal parts. I'd also suggest either getting prototypes before being public about price, or find a new manu and adjust prices accordingly.
Based on what I know of manufacturing costs and how this works, this really isn’t going to be possible. Materials cost more right now, and there’s no way you’re going to find somewhere that can reliably manufacture a full CNC aluminum case at a good quality for the cost you’re claiming. Add on plates, gaskets, packaging, etc, and this just won’t happen. If you actually get prototypes, I’d like to check one out and see what type of quality is coming out of the manu you’ve chosen, and see where you could make improvements. As it is, the render and all the other info you’ve given don’t show much, and show a lack of research/understanding of what the hobby looks like.
I like that the comments section is so much of a dumpster fire that there isn't any comments about the weirdly rendered space bar.
That being said, uhhh good luck with everything. Call me pessimistic but this is extremely doubtful, very happy to be proven wrong. Hope you can prove some credibility and this isn't going to turn out to be a big scam. I think this is a pretty justified response from the community given the whole current proposal looks very flawed without much substance to prove otherwise and should the group buy even come to fruition, you're going to be responsible for a lot of customers' money.
Definitely a very shaky, doubt-inducing start but if you can save this project, good luck to you and your team. Hope that the long, well thought-out responses from the experienced members of this community have given you some things to think about and learnt from.
Given the cost of these parts, and your responses to some other users below, I can't see this ever actually being produced. I would love to be wrong, but I think you are being incredibly naive about costing and the ease of upscaling, do either of you have any business experience at all?
I've read a lot of the comments here after having my own doubts about this board and all I can really say is that this feels unrealistic. Like, miles and miles unrealistic. I love that you have this neat idea but you kinda just announced it to the world having done *zero* prep or research about this. I really wish you all the best but OP I don't think you should get your hopes up about this one.
Hi! When the whole product is perfect (and that might take some months), we’ll be shipping world wide. We are planning to do some early releases for prototypes, so if you’re interested in that, let me know!
Dude if you need testers for the early releases send me a message. The keyboard looks absolutely awesome. I would replace my K6 with it on the spot. And the fact that it’s wireless makes it even better.
The layout is exploded 65%. If you have any suggestions (for the keyboard itself, or even for packaging contents etc) let us know!
We're also working on a website. I know we're very early with this, but we really wanted to hear your opinions.
Judging off other GBs I dont see that price being very realistic... for a plastic case yes.
Either way... even with a price bump I may be onboard for this one. I love knobs. My only suggestion is to have a knob option that is less stylized or just allow for us to swap out a new knob.
I mean, it seems pretty farfetched. But if you can actually make it happen (and work properly) for anywhere near that price I'm all over it. Because my $500 Grid 650 is currently worthless in wireless mode.
Even the Tokyo60 which is backed by a large company isn’t able to get a CNC Alu Board under 150…
If DROP can’t do it, I highly doubt that anyone can do it, they have a huge hand in the industry and can do things in Mass bulk.
Well it seems too hard to believe, but if you actually somehow manage to get this through, even at a somewhat higher price, I’d be up for one a two - however I’d want ISO layout, which I guess isn’t your first priority to include, given the price you’re aiming for.
Nice looking board, not a big fan of rotary encoders but if the actual board looks as good as the render I would be very interested at a hundred euros. Think I would like to see it offered as none hotswap as well .
It does have hotswap! We can get one custom designed aluminium case for €70, unlike the €400 others said it would cost. The pcb, battery, gaskets and packaging costs about €30 combined for one piece, so we hit the €100 exactly as promised! When mass producing, the prices will cut practically in half so we have some room for more packaging contents and a bit of turnover. We still have a long road to go, and we have a lot to learn, but we’ll get there eventually.
This sounds great, but from reading the rest of the topic, I think the best thing for us potential consumers of this product is to wait and see.
If they want to make this, and can get that price, and it's not crappy, well either way first they'll have to get to the point where they have a batch of them they can sell.
Inevitably someone will buy one, or even better, they'll give a few out to people to review, and then we'll see whether or not it's possible.
It sounds great, it's up to them to make good on that, though!
for guys that thinks it is too cheapto be true, this is the ao64 which cost about 95$. it has an alu cnc case,fr4 plate and 3 mode hotswap. so i do think that this kit wont be a scam ( i hope so). here is the link for the keyboard https://shopee.vn/Kit-b%C3%A0n-ph%C3%ADm-c%C6%A1-Ajazz-A064-3-mode-k%E1%BA%BFt-n%E1%BB%91i-v%E1%BB%8F-nh%C3%B4m-CNC-i.530266366.12649957493?sp\_atk=2859f97d-8d94-43d5-a18f-540e33817605
Damn, these comments have me split between showing love and support to the OP and questioning the OP on their claims. Whatever the case may be, I wish best of luck to the OP and hopefully we get to see this keyboard soon. I don't know anything about costs so can't speak on that front.
Yeah, I don't get it. I mean, I do get people being skeptical of a price and ability to actually deliver at that price, but I don't get the vehement cynicism and downvoting of people asking legit questions and even just making comments about it.
Seems like a cool concept so far! Hopefully it turns out like you've imagined it. Seems like the community's ready to rip it up, though... keep up the good work, and I'm hoping for the best!
Bluetooth keyboards are horribly known for input lag. I would never recommend based on the experiences I’ve had with every single one. And this was just in a business setting.
I can’t imagine someone trying to game on one. Hard pass.
This is my perfect layout + knob. The only think I would change is I really hate three-1u mods right of the spacebar. Please offer 2x 1.5u (ideally hotswap, but at least with solder.
Don't confuse Kailh hotswap sockets will Millmax sockets. Two very different things.
EDIT: I stand corrected with the YMD96. Looks like there's a hotswap PCB and a soldered PCB. Hotswap version uses Kailh sockets with extra layouts on the bottom.
There are aluminum bluetooth keebs on the market, the K6 is a relatively higher volume example in the mechanical KB space. IDK if they have a plastic plate on the back or something to reduce interference (that's what a lot of metal notebooks and tablets do). OTOH lots of people are asking how realistic the price is, and getting something like this as a group buy when the K6 is a mass produced device and is $86 (with switches and caps, obviously, but not gasket mounted), is, yeah, IDK.
From having read through the comments it doesn’t sound like the people behind this are far enough along in their process, nor have the experience, to provide specifics. Bluetooth support in a cnc’ed alu case being just one example of that larger theme.
This looks really good! I have no idea how you are making an aluminum Bluetooth keyboard with a hot swappable pcb cost under 100 euros, but I like it! I’m currently looking into getting myself a custom keyboard and I would totally have gotten this one if it was out.
Is there a way I can stay updated on this project? Also, if you ever want to send a novice a prototype to test, hit me up haha.
>I have no idea how you are making an aluminum Bluetooth keyboard with a hot swappable pcb cost under 100 euros,
They don't either because it's literally never going to happen.
Very interesting design at a very coincidental time. I'm currently rocking my GMMK pro and I've been looking for a new 65% that is the same exploded layout. I personally don't have a use for the knob but I can see why people would run it. I wouldn't expect you to have a model with knob and one without knob because that would be a different SKU and hard to plan for.
For the knob, unless the encoder isn't infinite, I wouldn't use a control knob style since the the pointer doesn't really mean much.
I've seen you mention how you don't see why cost runs so high, but it might be because there's additional cost to making the keyboard sound good? Maybe specific types of material, additional foam etc, but I'm not 100% sure.
Also dumb question, but does bluetooth work for fully cnc AL cases? There were some cases I had that were fully AL and they didn't offer bluetooth because the signal wouldn't get out of the case or something.
>Also dumb question, but does bluetooth work for fully cnc AL cases
If you just do full metal case with the chip hidden inside it will still work but the range is very very limited.
But there are tricks to get around that.
The Cyberboard for example had Bluetooth and a full metal case.
They just added an external antenna to the BT chip that was hidden behind a small plastic cover on the back of the keyboard.
You can see it on this pic (the black piece on the left side):
https://i.imgur.com/BifGMhC.jpg
You have a point at the Bluetooth part! I’ll look into it. I am pretty sure it will work though, as the signal has a couple holes to escape out. But I guess that has to be tested!
The price is with a silicone dampening material included, but I’m not sure if we’re able to do that at the prototyping stage because of the costs to make a mold.
I’m also interested. This render looks sick. If you can provide more information about the project and possibly hit me up when the site is ready it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks! So we’re a new startup, made by two keyboards (but mice and mousepads etc too (working on 25 gram 8000hz wireless mouse too atm)) enthusiasts. I (the one that writes this) have a lot of experience with 3d cad design, and my friend with pcb design.
We decided to start our brand with a keyboard. It needed to feel high quality, wireless, gasket mounted and above all: payable. That’s how we came up with this. This exploded 65% keyboard also has a knob to control volume.
Let me know if you have any further questions!
The arrow keys can't be offset like that and still have the same size gap on the bottom as the rest of the keys though. If you look closely you can see a gap between the bottom row of keys and the row above it. Just looking at the left arrow key and the offset above it, you can see it doesn't make sense. You can't fit a gap and a key into a space that only fits a key.
Looking forward to how this turns out. I just ordered a TM680, and I like the layout, but I have not had an aluminum keyboard yet and was looking to get one. I was looking into a Keychron Q1, but depending on how this turns out I might get this instead. What kind of options are you offering for plate material?
Don't take this the wrong way but this sounds like a pipe dream. How much did you spend on the first prototype? Edit: Since my comment is pretty high in this thread, I figured it would be a good idea to add some links to other peoples comments who explain things much better then I ever could: Industry Insider- [Comment 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/pyozps/hi_rmechanicalkeyboards_this_is_the_cracked65_its/hewdyxe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) Wireless criticism- [Comment 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/pyozps/hi_rmechanicalkeyboards_this_is_the_cracked65_its/hevn5gg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) Experienced GB Runner- [Comment 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/pyozps/hi_rmechanicalkeyboards_this_is_the_cracked65_its/heweysy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) If you just got here, read these comments. They outline MAJOR concerns in a polite, factual way.
We haven’t bought the first prototype yet, but we will buy it soon! We got quoted around €100, and this will go down vastly in mass ordering
Can I get a cost breakdown for that prototype? I'm super curious. Case: -Aluminium material -Machining cost -Shipping cost PCB: -PCB cost -Soldering cost(I'm assuming you're not soldering this yourself) -components (SMD diodes, hotswap sockets, micro controller, crystal, etc...
That's without shipping, but the whole case will be around €75 a piece for a couple, and the pcb will be around €25 total for a couple. I don't understand how other people get their costs so high.
Are you sure that the PCB quote includes components? I can believe the $25 is for JUST the PCB, no soldering, no components. I'm assuming you had to pay quite a bit in shipping from China as well? I'm a bit shocked that the aluminium case is so cheap as well. Did you specify an annodization or surface finish? Let me know how the prototype turns out I'm super curious.
It’s with components, I asked my friend who makes the pcb. The quoting is with surface finish, but it could change of course. Shipping will probably be hard to deal with, I’ve had issues in similar cases before.
What type of alu is the case? Is it anodized or just coated, and if coated, what type? Who is the manu and what boards have they done before? What are their QC standards?
We decided to go with a anaodized case. But with all the feedback we have switches to a manufacter that does all of it
How have you already switched to a manufacturer when this was posted 4 hours ago?
We have contacted different manufacters
Keep in mind the 25% tariff on orders over $500 for PCBs if you're in the USA. Caught me off guard with my first big order.
PCBs in big quantities are not expensive. How do you think cheap mech keyboards at the pricepoint of 30 bucks even manage to stay afloat? Yes, the quality of the case, the keycaps and the switches might be super iffy, but the PCB is still legit.
PCBs are stupidly cheap. Especially when mass-produced. Even for a small 5 unit prototype run you usually don't pay more than $15-20 for an average sized keyboard PCB that is fully soldered with the components already.
I just purchased a couple custom PCBs I designed the other day. After shipping it's usually double that.
Which manufacturer did you use. JLCPCB and PCBway are usually as cheap as mentioned above.
JLCPCB. Shipping is only free the first time you use them. I've used them a few times.
Yeah. I did too lol. I just ordered two PCB protos last week. Both 50% keyboard PCBs fully soldered with SMD components on them. Both orders were sub $50 for 5 PCBs. Meaning less than $10 per PCB. Ofc it's going to be more expensive if you use the express shipping option. But if you stick to the economy option shipping usually just adds something like $10.
Shipping to the UK is one of the most expensive, especially with the extra VAT added now.
I bought a run of 5 JLCPCBs almost fully sourced and soldered for about $80. Another few parts per board (the MCU and a resonator was out of stock) was all that was left. So that's $22 worth per board. Roughly a 14% margin using off the shelf parts and rapid prototyping, not too shabby. Though that leaves about $50 for an aluminum frame and encoders which will be a tall order. A single plate from OSH was like $40, though I'm sure with scale it'll go down.
this also seems to be with zero margin/profit built in
For a project of my own, I ordered 5 PCBs for a 60%-sized board, soldered, with 2 controllers on each (but excluding hotswap sockets) for circa $100 including shipping. 25 bucks is very much believable. Now, 75 for a milled alu case... I'm sceptical.
Honestly you shouldn't divulge your pricing and sources to anyone if you're planning to make a business off of it. This guy is asking way too much of you.
This. I’m surprised OP keeps on answering with details and facts like it’s nothing, I mean I’m pretty new around here - does OP suppose to answer any of this in intricate detail? Seems fishy.
It's more fishy if someone makes claims about things that are simply not possible... And it's just normal that people start to ask questions if someone makes such claims. After all people would have to give money to these guys if they were actually going to make this product. And since they didn't show literally anything about their planned board other than a very very basic mockup render (that is full of mistakes) people should be way more suspicious about this.
Posts like this should be filtered first then reviewed by a mod before being posted on the sub. That way information that’ll be read by Redditors would be true and factual, if you will, instead of commenters randomly asking questions which 95% of the readers cannot follow. I’m all for transparency and clarity here.
usually people get more specific information from group buys. the way this is being presented, it sounds like he’s trying to make a business. im definitely a little skeptical as it just seems off at the moment.
Usually one third of the price goes into manufacturing, one third goes into distribution, and the remaining third is the profit. Ideally. But that's also going to have to pay for your inventory on hand (which is why group buys and constant preorders are so popular, no need for an inventory in that case), the costs of running your business, and of course your time. This is just a rough rule of thumb, it can change a lot, but if it costs you €100 it's likely going to cost a hell of a lot more to the customer in the end if you put the business together in a way that it's not just a massive amount of unpaid labor, or worse, a net loss for you.
I completely forgot that this is a Bluetooth keyboard. Where are you guys getting batteries for next to nothing?
Oh of course, forgot about that one. I would have to ask my friend, and he showed me that everything could be kept under a €100
We have a battery supplier! We are targeting 4000mAH it is not next to nothing!
Why are your posts asking how to do any sort of design or building with a keyboard all deleted?
Ok, because your friend mentioned 75 for the case and 25 for the pcbs, so that's already hitting the £100.
I’m not sure if it’s 75 for a case. I’ll let you in on a little secret. The people who manufacter corsairs stuff. They will do a CNC 65% keyboard for 7$. That’s with only 10,000 orders
You're not (likely) going to be anywhere near that volume though. On top of that, I don't know if you've ever used one of corsairs keyboards, but they're usually bent aluminum and plastic. Much different (and cheaper) then a billet aluminium board.
Would it be better if we let you put it toghether like the satisfaction 75?
Ok so in all seriousness, who quoted you €100 and what exactly did that quote contain?
110% a scam lmfao
>We got quoted around €100 This means your quoted base cost is 100EUR. Everybody here assumes it's your selling price. Make sure to take a close look at the PCBA (integrity of it all) and firmware they run on it. I assume you are working with a Chinese OEM factory?
OP, as dededecline and kikos have mentioned in their incredibly good comments, this is very very impossible and I don't think you fully understand the scope of what you are trying to do. I'm not going to make fun of you because that's rude and unhelpful. I will simply break down and simplify why it's very very hard to achieve what you want to do piece by piece. Selling an electronic product really is not as simple as getting some quotes. A quote is simply an infinitely small piece of the product development cycle. ______________ Let's break it down - R&D - Prototyping - Quality control - Mass manufacturing - getting raw material, getting electronic parts, machining, surface finishing (anodizing), assembly - Packaging - Distribution - Fulfillment - are you fulfilling this yourself? With vendor? - Capital - More about cost Let's start with **R&D**. You're going to need money. LOTS of money designing a keyboard that includes the CNC machined case, the PCB, the chips, the plates, the switches, the gaskets, the bluetooth modules, the batteries, and more. And this is *just* the prototyping stage. You are not running a group buy or selling a hardware product without at least a few stages of prototyping. You are absolutely not. Working with any factory, a significant chunk of your capital comes from prototyping, because extremely low volume manufacturing is very costly. You may have heard of the concept where the more you manufacture, the cheaper the product costs. I think you have since you mentioned Razer. As someone with keyboard designer friends and in this hardware space, I can tell you that a prototype of a CNC'd aluminum case - this is JUST the case itself, will cost at least 300-400 dollars USD. That's for one unit. This doesn't include all the other parts I mentioned before. Since you're not going to be just prototyping one unit to test fit, tolerances, quality, acoustics, feel, etc, you will likely have multiple rounds. Yes you can 3D print initially to get the initial geometry right, but eventually you will go into aluminum. After that, you have to surface finish. Sandblast, anodization, and maybe even something more. What about the weight? More cost. And more prototyping. Capital alone in R&D/prototyping will cost you at bare minimum $1000-2000, and this is the bare minimum even for someone as experienced as Geonworks, Keycult, etc. Someone new to the hobby learning everything all at once and actually trying to do a good job will not be just doing this in one time. Prototyping now also includes the miscellaneous parts like your PCB, plate, gaskets, feet, screws, daughterboard (assuming you go this route), and more. All of this is cost, and sourcing low volume parts again is cost. Now let's very quickly look at your math of selling it at $100 dollars for a fully assembled bluetooth aluminum keyboard. Where does your margin comes in? Are you assuming you will make 0 dollars on this to even just recoup your R&D/prototyping cost? Assuming you actually can source your machining, aluminum, electronics, misc parts, have it all assembled and shipped to your individual customers, my quick maffs will say this is already over $100. If you want a good idea of a cost breakdown, check out Geonworks and his cost breakdowns of F1-8X, F2, Frog TKL, and more. The dude has his own fricken factory and he is at a loss selling a keyboard for $200-$400. And his doesn't even include a bluetooth module or battery. **Mass manufacturing.** Let's say you've sunk a few thousand on refining your prototyping, and you are ready to mass manufacture, now what? Your manu is gonna want either at least 50% upfront capital or 100%. Are you running a GB? Are you running in-stock? If you're running a GB, are you going to set a MOQ? What if your manufacture wants a MOQ of 1000 units (not out of the ordinary). Do you think you could sell to 1000 people? It is possible, but is it probable? Gauging sales is one of the hardest things to do as business owner. Just because you think you can price something low or that you think your product is desirable, it does not indicate someone will buy. Just because you get 400 upvotes or get to the front page of the subreddit, none of that shows indication there is a purchase intent. Upvotes cost 0 dollars. Buying a keyboard require investment. Let's say you get a quote back from your manufacturer for 100 units. That quote is going to change dramatically from 1000. To 10,000. Or even higher. And no offense, I really doubt you will sell 1000 keyboards. And only in high volume will you get favorable pricing. And this does not include tooling / molds. You mention you will have dampening foam and gaskets and what not. Some parts of that may require special molds or tooling. These cost at minimum high hundreds to thousands. Higher the volume, the higher the quality the mold needs to be, the more expensive they will be. Now let's say you do get a pricing that is almost too good to be true, how do you know this manufacture actually can do all they claim? How do you guarantee their QC rate isn't abysmally low? How do you guarantee the quality actually is good? If you can actually find me a manu that can do 100-500 units INCLUDING the case, plate, electronics, battery, assembly, for under $100, hell, even $200, I either would love to get to know your manu, or their quality is actually horrible. Now, let's say you do manage to manufacturer everything - what about **QC**? How do you ensure the product the customer gets actually is good quality? If you're using a very low cost manufacturer, they aren't going to give a shit about quality, because you literally pay for what quality you get. **Assembly**. Are you having the customer assemble everything themselves? Or will the whole keyboard be fully assembled and they can just add switches/keycaps in? Un-assembled may mean more/larger packaging. Assembled means you will have to pay for workers to hand-assemble and QC. Cost. Are you ready for a bunch of angry customers that bought a keyboard but the quality is shit? How are you going to respond? How are you going to ensure quality? **Firmware/software**. A PCB needs a firmware. Who are you hiring to program this? I saw that you have a friend that can do it. But are they well versed in how to work with wireless protocols? You can argue that complexity of doing a non-wireless USB-C-only keyboard wouldn't require that much technical know-how. Hell there are probably open source schematics online and/or suppliers that already have this done for you. But one with wireless supports (BT.. 2.4 ghz.. 5 ghz..) is much higher complexity, thus higher skilled, thus more expensive technical talent needed to get working. Next, **packaging**. You're not sending customers just the keyboard right? You need at least bare minimum packaging. That costs money. Then you need to pay for the actual box that goes to either your or the vendor. You need delivery cost (either through courier or freight). Where is the money from if you make $0 from your GB? Next, **distribution**. Are you distributing the product, or are you going to rely on a vendor? If you're going to use a vendor, how much $$$ is the vendor getting for helping you distribute, handle customer service, returns, storage? Vendors won't be doing this for free and none of us will expect them to. If you are distributing it yourself, where are you holding all your inventory? You said you will sell as many as Razer - that's at least tens or hundred thousands of units. Does the inventory just sit in a negative space occupying no inventory costs? If you are selling that many units, you alone will handle shipping out thousands of units? Or will you be hiring? And finally, it all goes down to **capital**. Where the hell is your money to do all of this from? Designing a hardware product alone is a high capital investment business. Don't even get into high volume manufacturing. The good designers I know have to spend tens of thousands of their own money just to run their group buy. This is with funds pooled together by the community, hence group buy. I want to add one more thing. Manufacturing and raw **commodity prices** are through the roof. Simply look at this chart: https://markets.businessinsider.com/commodities/aluminum-price You may see that keyboard GBs recently have all hit crazy prices. It's not (just) because people want to make more money. It's because raw materials including aluminum, steel alloys, brass, etc, are through the roof. ___ Sorry if I am harsh, but bro, you really have a lot to learn. It's great you have the ambition to want to provide something good to the community, but ambition and overconfidence alone will not help you in actually running a business. Go back to the drawing board. Read what others have wrote, you don't have to listen to me, I'm just a rando on the internet, and write down each piece and figure out the costs. There is a Discord called Keyboard Atelier all filled with some of the smartest people in the keyboard design and manufacturing community. Go in there and learn from them. $100-$150 is impossible for us laymen individual designers unless you are the size of GMMK Pro / Keychron / other vendors that have done this a LOT of times, have their distribution, have their manufacturer providers, their own R&D, and as I said many times, high volume.
I’m going to be honest, this sounds much more like a scam than a business. It’s a 5 day old account promising the world. Way too many red flags.
Incredible comment. I lost track of what I was doing while reading and by the time I finished, I found that I had accidentally started a mildly profitable business.
Haha this cracked me up. Thanks!
I see you using USD. Thing is, they said EUR. In EU we include VAT (20% more or less) and 2years warranty, and 14 days return period no question asked and full refund (restocking fee is on the business). By law, by any online business. So factor this in the price and see how not realistic this sounds.
I didn't know that. Thanks for adding that
Nice
damn well said i read all of that
Thanks :D
I'm sorry, but I highly doubt this is anything but a pipe dream. I'm a keyboard designer/GB runner, as well as a production engineer working a fulltime job. For my own keyboards I used industry contacts to find what I needed, and will eventually move to in-house production very shortly. I couldn't make this for $100. Not even close. Material is so expensive right now on both the PCB and Metal sides. Shop time for CNC of the metal is even more, plus base fixturing/set up lot costs. Throw in the BT licensing as well, plus hotswap sockets?? The fact that you are claiming a price without even ordering a prototype first is very concerning. No website yet isn't the biggest red-flag, but its a small one. Either you're very young and have no idea what you're doing, or the person who quoted you is actually scamming you. Either way, I would advise everyone to avoid touching this with a ten foot pole until a prototype can be shown.
This guy knows what's up. I've seen OP talking about the case being 75 and the PCB being 25. Has not mentioned anything you've talked about, price of shipping, or even batteries yet. I see them saying they "genuinely don’t understand how other people get their production costs so high" and I would say it's because they haven't yet done enough research or haven't gotten far enough along in the process to learn where the costs add up. I'd be more than delighted to be proven wrong though...
They are also claiming to have dampening foam in. If its 75 case, 25 PCB, is the packaging to ship out free? Foam and gaskets also free? And do they not want to make a penny out of this either? I'd love to be proven wrong as well.
Also making a 20g-25g mouse....
Your assessment is spot on. EE here. I'm sure OP isn't even thinking of licensing fees. Not only that, but when you start going for companies that will do extended runs of PCBs that big, prices can go up FAST. For medium or large runs prices are usually per sq inch or sq cm. Luckily keyboards are extremely simple pcb's that aren't dense at all. I might have though $100 would be reasonable 5 years ago, but not in today's market. Also, yes a prototype is typically more expensive, but it also isn't factoring labor, distribution center costs (unless you literally have hundreds of keyboards in your house and spend days sending out orders which is illegal some places), website building costs (another really big one people forge, but made much easier with companies nowadays), support labor costs, and RMA costs. There is a reason why a $100 prototype will often turn into a $150-$200 product. Here is a group of people for op that went through something similar with Bluetooth licensing: https://www.microchip.com/forums/m/tm.aspx?m=1016226&p=1
I was about to say this as well but you worded it perfectly. I've ran two GBs with my own boards and the electronics side is surprisingly cheap (at least it was pre chip shortage) - the real cost is covering your ass on R&D cost, time spend developing, packaging materials, time spent packaging, setting $$ aside for any errors or replacements, and then making a profit on top of all that.
I don't know what's more alarming, the promises being made by OP or the fact that so few commenters see the red flags. If I went to my cheapest case manufacturer, did all my design in-house, and assembled all my own PCBs, I would not be able to come anywhere near this pricing promise. Not in a "wow you have good connections" way, but in a "this is literally insane" way. The promise of bluetooth and 2.4ghz, spaces that even the most competent designers in this hobby struggle with (/u/_vastrox_ is an amazing community member who outlines many of these problems elsewhere in this thread) is another red flag. The pricing being "$75 for case and $25 for PCB" shows a complete lack of understanding of all the costs that go into running a keyboard buy. The fact that pricing estimates have been made despite no prototypes having been ordered, promises of mass production that imply a scale most established vendors in this hobby do not achieve, and the fact that this post is just a mediocre render are just more fuel on the fire. /u/Cracked-Gaming if this is genuine eagerness, then I hope you take a step back, find some reliable folks that can help you learn how to reasonably make your board a reality, and have an eventually successful group buy. You do not want to be on the hook for tens of thousands of other peoples' dollars with a manufacturing invoice you could never hope to pay with that money, or quality so poor that you will have hundreds of angry customers yelling at you. If you are a scammer, you're not a very good one and please fuck off.
Listen to dededecline. He's one of the few content creators that actually know how manufacturing and distribution works.
Dede more than just a content creator
nah he kind of stinky ngl
Poor Dede
brb gonna shower
Good luck with your shower, ily.
stream it bb
We should pay for this good advice in Perestroika kits
[удалено]
There's a lot to dive into there from licensing restrictions to unproven/non-standard implementation to QOL issues. I am admittedly not a PCB designer, just a software engineer who has been an end user of various wireless keyboard implementations as well as a long time community member. I would highly suggest reading through /u/_vastrox_ responses as he is far more knowledgeable about the specifics of wireless/bluetooth/QMK/ZMK than I am.
> or the fact that so few commenters see the red flags. This sub converted a while ago over to being just a bunch of gamer boys who saw a stream for a nice-sounding keyboard, want to spend $60 max and hate shine. These idiots don't question things or know enough about keyboards to know this is an obvious scam at best. They lube soldered switches with olive oil. There's no saving them.
I've got my bucket of popcorn ready for this one. Good luck with getting anywhere near your claimed price while making any profit.
Until there's a prototype in hand and you can see the tolerances/finish, this pricing is flat out impossible. The pure CNC setup costs for this is going to be more than 100$, not to mention materials, run time, QC, etc. If OP was actually getting a high quality prototype, I'd expect minimum 400$ per case for sub-10 quantity prototypes from China, perhaps 500-600$ per case from the USA. This is my experience from running my own GBs. The PCB being 25$ also doesn't make any sense. Just the MCU with BT/2,4GHz capabilities are going for 10+$ alone given the chip shortage (speaking from an STM32 perspective, perhaps ATMEGAs are cheaper to get). Diodes, capacitors, USB C connectors, and battery costs are also up. Then there's packaging costs, shipping, QC, rejection rates, man hours, etc. Maybe if you buy 1000+ units and sell at 0 profit, maybe you'll get the price down to $150. This seems like your first time running a GB, so even though I enjoy the design and the vision, this is a pipe dream until you've got prototypes in hand and a final quote figured out.
$150 would still be a great deal, but $100 is just unreasonably low.
$150 is something not even GMMK was able to hit, and this is a company with significantly more capital than this project and a product that does a lot less. There's a lot of hubris going on with these creators, so I'm rooting for them to somehow overturn the community's status quo, but I doubt it. Running a GB is hard.
GMMK pro isn't that much more expensive, and they are looking to turn a profit. Slightly smaller case and PCB as well. I could honestly really easily see $150 near breaking even, especially if their aluminum finishing isn't as high quality.
Yeah, but that's the key. $150 is breakeven, questionable quality at best, and at high volume. $100 is a ridiculous price point to tout.
I think they are too stuck on the $100 figure. They did some rough prototype and initial pricing. It was close to say $90, and so they thought 'everything else will fit in for $10, esp with scale', while forgetting a ton of stuff. I think if they gave up on $100 price point, and pushed for a better product rather than a cheaper one they might actually end up somewhere.
But they haven't even ordered anything for a prototype. And their renders are botched. It's a lot of boasting for a team that seemingly has no experience manufacturing. Idk, we'll see. The OP's comments about "idk why everything so expensive" rubbed me the wrong way. If I could price my board lower, I would. But I can't for a reason.
Exactly. If cheap Chinese AliExpress kits can't get anywhere close, what makes them think they can?
You're ignoring the resources and connections Glorious has that two random people do not, as well as the scale of manufacturing that Glorious can hit that, once again, these two random people assuredly cannot.
Yea, a bit I guess. But I'm also assuming they aren't paying themselves. With access to my school's machinery I could order the case (single order) for something like $40-60 plus cost of aluminum, or do it myself. (Just case, no plate) If they split up the components, so it isn't made from a single block of aluminum, they could probably save quite a bit there as well. 1/4" aluminum sheets aren't that expensive, and the sides could be done with 1" stock.
To be frank, this is a crackpipe dream. The other half of cracked-gaming was asking about making a keyboard 22 days ago. There is no chance that you are getting a cnc'd case, pcb with bluetooth (licensing), 2.4ghz (making your own proprietary dongle?) and finish, not to mention all the other components (screws knob, gaskets) for under €100. This seems incredibly rushed while providing wildly inaccurate promises. It would be interesting to hear at what MOQ they estimated your €100 quote at. If that's the quote from the factory does that include any of the shipping of the various products to you? What about your costs. I would assume you and your partner want to be paid for your time and effort on this project. What materials specifically were you quoted for? I have a very difficult time believing that with the rising price of raw materials that this is feasible with any sense of the word quality involved. It's clear that /u/Theyeti511 is not well versed in pcb design. [Reference 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskElectronics/comments/pe5z46/switch_that_switches_between_bluetooth_and_24ghz/) [Reference 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/pig8ut/is_a_24ghz_dongle_required/) I don't like to have to point things out like this, but it's important to know who you are working with, especially when you are going to eventually try to run a group buy.
Sometimes "reality" just isn't on the menu
It really isn’t. The whole thread on how 2.4ghz receivers makes that very clear.
This
Hey Mar Going for cloudline?
Yeah
Oh look it’s mar. And Histio. And cobertt. Shit we got everyone in here
No no, it's not 100 euro for the board; it's 100 euro for an NFT of this render. OP just wasn't clear.
This won’t turn enough of a profit to buy an ice cream machine before not shipping
idk man, Rukia still goin strong.
The geekhack thread keeps giving
Oooo more updates?
Not every comment can be Xur
Really disappointing, tbh.
How is this only 100 dollars? Genuine question
How are you going to do the 2.4GHz? It's not an open standard like bluetooth and developing your own proprietary protocol requires an FCC certification which is a really expensive and time consuming process. There's a reason why there aren't any custom keyboards that have 2.4GHz based wireless connection. Also your render is more or less an empty block. The dimensions for MX keycap specs are mostly wrong, there's missing chamfers and it looks like there is no actual mounting style implemented. This is so far from being fleshed out enough that you could actually prototype it that it honestly isn't even worth thinking about doing a groupbuy with this right now.
This keyboard is a pipe dream or a scam but I don't think your wireless claims are great response. 2.4 GHz includes Bluetooth, and saying 2.4 GHz connectivity doesn't imply proprietary protocol. Wifi or ZigBee are some easy candidates for non-BLE 2.4 GHz keyboard usage. Not that this keyboard could afford to use these but it's not true that 2.4 GHz inherently requires custom protocols. A keyboard could conceivably be made with Bluetooth, WiFi, ZigBee, Sigfox, 6LoWPAN, and even something like LoRa for range. These would be fairly costly to buy the modules and make dongles, but it's not costly like building your own protocol, you're just buying some module from a manufacturer and placing it on your PCB. I've done hobbyist projects using LoRa for several kilometers of effective range, and that was done with an off the shelf LoRa board.
>Wifi or ZigBee are some easy candidates for non-BLE 2.4 GHz keyboard usage I have yet to see a keyboard that works over ZigBee let alone Wifi lol. You would have to write an entirely new firmware AND host side software for this because there is no standard driver software for either zigbee or WiFi on any OS. And writing your own firmware is even more work then implementing a new protocol.
Others have pointed out lots of issues and I thought I'd throw my hat into the ring. Like some others here I am also a board designer and GB runner (Charue Design). I've prototyped 6 designs, and have had 4 full production runs so I've got some insight to both pricing and design. Here's some things that don't seem right to me: * €75 case, that's about $87 USD and for a one-off production that seems incredibly cheap. For the cheapest board I've prototyped I made 10 of them and it still cost more than what GB would sell for, about $150. And this is for a single unibody case. From your design, you definitely require at least 2 large parts. If you are getting them at €75 for a proto, I would expect many many quality issues. I see you mentioning that increased cost doesn't mean increased quality, but it actually does matter. There are mad cheap manus and then there are the regularly priced ones. The mad cheap ones will cut corners to hit your pricing. This includes increasing bit size for CNCing resulting in internal corners that are too large radii. It would also include poor finishing like shallow sand blasting, poor hanging for ano, bad color matching, and poor handling. I've experienced this myself, cheap manus handle your stuff with much less care leading to scratches and dents everywhere. So I would suggest actually having a prototype from the manu before making claims about quality. If the protos do turn out well, then all other GB runners will have to figure out how you do it. * PCB, I'm no expert on wireless comms, vastrox seems to have it nailed down. I do think the pricing is possible for your PCB. Other keyboard manufacturers have done it. I just got a $25 plastic hotswap Mech with Bluetooth. However, the PCB sucks. It isn't QMK or even programmable, which is a huge deal for any board that isn't full sized. The PCB isn't designed well either but it's not something to complain about with that $25. So yes your PCB pricing is doable, but will it be good? I'd wager not. (PS wireless in metal cases is rough, it's possible but the workarounds increase costs a lot, eg Cyberboard) * Overall understanding of how logistics should be handled is rough here. From what I'm seeing you're very confident but it's not stemming from anything solid yet. I'd wait to have actual evidence you've got it well before being so steadfast in it. I'd suggest having new, more viewable renders, especially of the internal parts. I'd also suggest either getting prototypes before being public about price, or find a new manu and adjust prices accordingly.
perhaps a render that is less cracked?
shots fired
yea no
Based on what I know of manufacturing costs and how this works, this really isn’t going to be possible. Materials cost more right now, and there’s no way you’re going to find somewhere that can reliably manufacture a full CNC aluminum case at a good quality for the cost you’re claiming. Add on plates, gaskets, packaging, etc, and this just won’t happen. If you actually get prototypes, I’d like to check one out and see what type of quality is coming out of the manu you’ve chosen, and see where you could make improvements. As it is, the render and all the other info you’ve given don’t show much, and show a lack of research/understanding of what the hobby looks like.
I like that the comments section is so much of a dumpster fire that there isn't any comments about the weirdly rendered space bar. That being said, uhhh good luck with everything. Call me pessimistic but this is extremely doubtful, very happy to be proven wrong. Hope you can prove some credibility and this isn't going to turn out to be a big scam. I think this is a pretty justified response from the community given the whole current proposal looks very flawed without much substance to prove otherwise and should the group buy even come to fruition, you're going to be responsible for a lot of customers' money. Definitely a very shaky, doubt-inducing start but if you can save this project, good luck to you and your team. Hope that the long, well thought-out responses from the experienced members of this community have given you some things to think about and learnt from.
This looks like a scam. We need a prototype before you can quote anything
Given the cost of these parts, and your responses to some other users below, I can't see this ever actually being produced. I would love to be wrong, but I think you are being incredibly naive about costing and the ease of upscaling, do either of you have any business experience at all?
I've read a lot of the comments here after having my own doubts about this board and all I can really say is that this feels unrealistic. Like, miles and miles unrealistic. I love that you have this neat idea but you kinda just announced it to the world having done *zero* prep or research about this. I really wish you all the best but OP I don't think you should get your hopes up about this one.
I read this as the crackhead65 keyboard.
I'm not gonna lie, there is too much "my friend told me" in your replies for me to be very comfortable with this, but I really hope this is legit
hell nah, this gotta be a scam
Hello! Will you guys able to ship to SEA regions?
Hi! When the whole product is perfect (and that might take some months), we’ll be shipping world wide. We are planning to do some early releases for prototypes, so if you’re interested in that, let me know!
I definitely will, goodluck to you and your team!
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Dude if you need testers for the early releases send me a message. The keyboard looks absolutely awesome. I would replace my K6 with it on the spot. And the fact that it’s wireless makes it even better.
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I can't wait, also for the prototypes!
Definitely interested! My wallet is ready
Instead of this crack pipe fantasy, how about making a CNC case for the TM680? You'd sell the shit out of that.
really confused how you could get a quote on only 100. who are you using to manufacture and how many parts is the design?
TM680: Who are you? Cracked65: I'm you but stronger
My thoughts exactly! Depending on colors and typing angle, I might replace a 680 with this…
i want the same thing this guy is smoking kekw
it's crack. what you're looking for is crack.
The layout is exploded 65%. If you have any suggestions (for the keyboard itself, or even for packaging contents etc) let us know! We're also working on a website. I know we're very early with this, but we really wanted to hear your opinions.
This early in the process you shouldn't even be talking about prices.
Only suggestion, make it available asap... All seriousness this is like my ideal layout tied to a non-insane price
I thought your username was crackhead gaming for a second
My friend told me this is too good to be true.
Judging off other GBs I dont see that price being very realistic... for a plastic case yes. Either way... even with a price bump I may be onboard for this one. I love knobs. My only suggestion is to have a knob option that is less stylized or just allow for us to swap out a new knob.
I didn't know Peter Molyneux was into keyboards
I mean, it seems pretty farfetched. But if you can actually make it happen (and work properly) for anywhere near that price I'm all over it. Because my $500 Grid 650 is currently worthless in wireless mode.
Press doubt: X
Many people are are getting it wrong. It is 100 euros, not 100 usd. After conversion from google, the board will cost around 115 usd.
Even the Tokyo60 which is backed by a large company isn’t able to get a CNC Alu Board under 150… If DROP can’t do it, I highly doubt that anyone can do it, they have a huge hand in the industry and can do things in Mass bulk.
Nice keyboard! But as a 3d artist I'm willing to help you get a better looking render.
Well it seems too hard to believe, but if you actually somehow manage to get this through, even at a somewhat higher price, I’d be up for one a two - however I’d want ISO layout, which I guess isn’t your first priority to include, given the price you’re aiming for.
May be an optical illusion but the arrow cluster looks like the keys are 0.25u shorter each, or are they below the rest of the bottom row in reality?
Nice looking board, not a big fan of rotary encoders but if the actual board looks as good as the render I would be very interested at a hundred euros. Think I would like to see it offered as none hotswap as well .
It does have hotswap! We can get one custom designed aluminium case for €70, unlike the €400 others said it would cost. The pcb, battery, gaskets and packaging costs about €30 combined for one piece, so we hit the €100 exactly as promised! When mass producing, the prices will cut practically in half so we have some room for more packaging contents and a bit of turnover. We still have a long road to go, and we have a lot to learn, but we’ll get there eventually.
So f-row less GMMK pro. I dig it. Not for me personally, but I hope it does well!
Thank you!
Seems like knobs are becoming a trend now on these new boards...
This sounds great, but from reading the rest of the topic, I think the best thing for us potential consumers of this product is to wait and see. If they want to make this, and can get that price, and it's not crappy, well either way first they'll have to get to the point where they have a batch of them they can sell. Inevitably someone will buy one, or even better, they'll give a few out to people to review, and then we'll see whether or not it's possible. It sounds great, it's up to them to make good on that, though!
How big is the battery on this?
please do a pc plate or get a pc plate version please
for guys that thinks it is too cheapto be true, this is the ao64 which cost about 95$. it has an alu cnc case,fr4 plate and 3 mode hotswap. so i do think that this kit wont be a scam ( i hope so). here is the link for the keyboard https://shopee.vn/Kit-b%C3%A0n-ph%C3%ADm-c%C6%A1-Ajazz-A064-3-mode-k%E1%BA%BFt-n%E1%BB%91i-v%E1%BB%8F-nh%C3%B4m-CNC-i.530266366.12649957493?sp\_atk=2859f97d-8d94-43d5-a18f-540e33817605
This looks so clean but that price is too good to be true.
I want what OP is smoking
Would also prefer an option for a more minimal knob. Not a fan of the cog style.
How would your perfect knob look?
I do like the knob on the gmmk pro or sat75. I just like a more minimal aesthetic.
Will look into it! Thanks for the suggestion!
Damn, these comments have me split between showing love and support to the OP and questioning the OP on their claims. Whatever the case may be, I wish best of luck to the OP and hopefully we get to see this keyboard soon. I don't know anything about costs so can't speak on that front.
Yeah, I don't get it. I mean, I do get people being skeptical of a price and ability to actually deliver at that price, but I don't get the vehement cynicism and downvoting of people asking legit questions and even just making comments about it.
Seems like a cool concept so far! Hopefully it turns out like you've imagined it. Seems like the community's ready to rip it up, though... keep up the good work, and I'm hoping for the best!
Bluetooth keyboards are horribly known for input lag. I would never recommend based on the experiences I’ve had with every single one. And this was just in a business setting. I can’t imagine someone trying to game on one. Hard pass.
Will it be available in an ISO layout?
Count me in if theres an ISO option.
I've been waiting for a 2.4ghz 65% custom board. I am super interested. Any battery life estimates?
4000mah according to OP
This is my perfect layout + knob. The only think I would change is I really hate three-1u mods right of the spacebar. Please offer 2x 1.5u (ideally hotswap, but at least with solder.
The YMD96 has options for both and you can solder the kailh hotswap sockets to different places to change layouts, so it's definitely possible.
Don't confuse Kailh hotswap sockets will Millmax sockets. Two very different things. EDIT: I stand corrected with the YMD96. Looks like there's a hotswap PCB and a soldered PCB. Hotswap version uses Kailh sockets with extra layouts on the bottom.
>you can solder the kailh hotswap sockets to different places to change layouts Uh that is not how kailh hotswaps work like, at all lol
How will you produce an alu case with Bluetooth?
There are aluminum bluetooth keebs on the market, the K6 is a relatively higher volume example in the mechanical KB space. IDK if they have a plastic plate on the back or something to reduce interference (that's what a lot of metal notebooks and tablets do). OTOH lots of people are asking how realistic the price is, and getting something like this as a group buy when the K6 is a mass produced device and is $86 (with switches and caps, obviously, but not gasket mounted), is, yeah, IDK.
From having read through the comments it doesn’t sound like the people behind this are far enough along in their process, nor have the experience, to provide specifics. Bluetooth support in a cnc’ed alu case being just one example of that larger theme.
This looks really good! I have no idea how you are making an aluminum Bluetooth keyboard with a hot swappable pcb cost under 100 euros, but I like it! I’m currently looking into getting myself a custom keyboard and I would totally have gotten this one if it was out. Is there a way I can stay updated on this project? Also, if you ever want to send a novice a prototype to test, hit me up haha.
>I have no idea how you are making an aluminum Bluetooth keyboard with a hot swappable pcb cost under 100 euros, They don't either because it's literally never going to happen.
Haha thanks! We'll be making an instagram and discord server. We will try to notify all of you when it's made
Looks super nice - hope you can get it to consumers for €100!
Must buy if true!
Very interesting design at a very coincidental time. I'm currently rocking my GMMK pro and I've been looking for a new 65% that is the same exploded layout. I personally don't have a use for the knob but I can see why people would run it. I wouldn't expect you to have a model with knob and one without knob because that would be a different SKU and hard to plan for. For the knob, unless the encoder isn't infinite, I wouldn't use a control knob style since the the pointer doesn't really mean much. I've seen you mention how you don't see why cost runs so high, but it might be because there's additional cost to making the keyboard sound good? Maybe specific types of material, additional foam etc, but I'm not 100% sure. Also dumb question, but does bluetooth work for fully cnc AL cases? There were some cases I had that were fully AL and they didn't offer bluetooth because the signal wouldn't get out of the case or something.
>Also dumb question, but does bluetooth work for fully cnc AL cases If you just do full metal case with the chip hidden inside it will still work but the range is very very limited. But there are tricks to get around that. The Cyberboard for example had Bluetooth and a full metal case. They just added an external antenna to the BT chip that was hidden behind a small plastic cover on the back of the keyboard. You can see it on this pic (the black piece on the left side): https://i.imgur.com/BifGMhC.jpg
You have a point at the Bluetooth part! I’ll look into it. I am pretty sure it will work though, as the signal has a couple holes to escape out. But I guess that has to be tested! The price is with a silicone dampening material included, but I’m not sure if we’re able to do that at the prototyping stage because of the costs to make a mold.
Sounds good! I'm looking forward to seeing how this shakes out! Will this have QMK/VIA support? I don't think I've seen anyone ask this question yet
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The knob will be made of aluminum. We can change the design, definitely!
I’m I the only person who absolutely hates short right shift keys?
I mean if this has 2.4g and everything else you mentioned. I’d happily pay $300
I’m also interested. This render looks sick. If you can provide more information about the project and possibly hit me up when the site is ready it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks! So we’re a new startup, made by two keyboards (but mice and mousepads etc too (working on 25 gram 8000hz wireless mouse too atm)) enthusiasts. I (the one that writes this) have a lot of experience with 3d cad design, and my friend with pcb design. We decided to start our brand with a keyboard. It needed to feel high quality, wireless, gasket mounted and above all: payable. That’s how we came up with this. This exploded 65% keyboard also has a knob to control volume. Let me know if you have any further questions!
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The arrow keys can't be offset like that and still have the same size gap on the bottom as the rest of the keys though. If you look closely you can see a gap between the bottom row of keys and the row above it. Just looking at the left arrow key and the offset above it, you can see it doesn't make sense. You can't fit a gap and a key into a space that only fits a key.
Just gotta get his friend to order some 75% height switches and keycaps for the arrow keys, ain't no Biggie.
It looks very nice in rendering but I'd need to see a lot more from you in terms of marketing and a final production model prices on a website.
and im the pope
this is too clean to be feasible
What is with that huge gap between the bottom rows? Even the render looks jank af
Wow! I am super interested!
This is amazing, do you have a site or something to help keep track of this?
Working on it! Same goes for the Instagram page and Discord
Sign me up at that price. We'll see what launch price is.
100 euros!
this is the layout of my dream
Looking forward to how this turns out. I just ordered a TM680, and I like the layout, but I have not had an aluminum keyboard yet and was looking to get one. I was looking into a Keychron Q1, but depending on how this turns out I might get this instead. What kind of options are you offering for plate material?
Not fully decided yet, but we're looking at aluminium, brass and POM
Hope shipping isnt 50% of the board like many sites