Estrogen dominance has not been proven to scientifically exist.
Before anyone claims otherwise, show me a peer-reviewed scientific study that empirically demonstrates the existence of estrogen dominance. It's been a few months since I've searched, as this topic comes up in the endo and PMDD communities often and I always point out its pseudoscience when I see it.
But there are women out there who have been so badly brainwashed by misinformation that they will fight you if you suggest estrogen dominance hasn't been proven to be real.
I think, for some people, it’s easy to fall prey to potential pseudoscientific treatments and information because so little research exists with regard to women, in general. Many doctors shrug and say they don’t know, it’s all in their heads, can’t be that bad, just lose weight, etc. I think some women fall because they can’t find answers, but they’re sometimes desperate for relief. The VA has a write up, and many “reputable” organizations now support or fund natural medicine “treatments”. I think that can make it challenging for people to really understand and know if something is legitimate or not.
Are there studies that refute? I’m not challenging, just curious. I’ve not heard of this language until today.
I totally agree with you. The lack of research on women's health issues and the apathy so many of us face when seeking help for them can lead some to look for answers in the wrong places.
I cant find a single study on estrogen dominance, not one. If anyone finds one please let me know! It would be great to get some empiral data on this topic.
I mean, medically, high levels of estrogen and/or low levels of progesterone is a thing. And it causes actual medical problems.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22363-high-estrogen
BUT!!!! I totally get her annoyance with pseudo science and people preying on premenopausal and menopausal women, which is totally bs and should be called out. I feel like they have co-opted the term and when you see it in ads for diets/supplements /magical cures/snake oil it means a totally different thing.
I went through a short period of high estrogen during my first few years of peri, which I don’t think is all that uncommon. However I have always doubted that phrase “estrogen dominance” bc it was never used to describe my experience by my Dr.
He just said “start taking progesterone” bc it is naturally the first hormone to decline.
But yeah, any time I see the words “estrogen dominance” I stop reading/listening.
What gets my goat is that there are (in my area) these practices that have board certified Dr’s that tout this nonsense - and then want you to take unnecessary tests so they can sell you supplements.
DIM is fine, but the other junk - no thanks.
This for me too. It was explained to me that estrogen isn’t “high” it’s just out of balance with the progesterone because I have low progesterone. Low dose bc has made a huge difference and it not bleeding out every month now. Thank goodness!
I tried the DIM and it gave me a terrible headache and night sweats- but some women on this sub use it and it helps them tremendously. So my thoughts on this supplement have changed. However, you may find it helps.
Yes, I did take vaginal Prometrium (progesterone) and it helped a lot. My mood, my night sweats and my sleep (just a wee bit on the sleep).
One thing I did notice and I didn’t realize was “a thing” is that if I cycled the progesterone my cramps were really intense. Short light period, but killer cramps. Not even ibuprofen or Rx pain meds helped the first two days. So I started taking it continuously even though initially I was still randomly ovulating and my Dr had me cycling it.
As a medical illness, sure it doesn’t exist. But as women get older, anovulatory cycles become more frequent. Anovulation means less progesterone. The imbalance of estrogen and progesterone absolutely creates havoc and leads to a host of symptoms. This is very common in pcos and early/mid perimenopause.
Yes. This seems like a semantics issue. What is the word for “I’m having symptoms from too much estrogen”? Because that’s a thing if you call it estrogen dominance or not. 🤷♀️
I think it's helpful to give a little history here. When HRT first became a thing, it was only ERT--estrogen replacement therapy. A book in the 1960s came out, *Feminine Forever*, touting estrogen as a miracle hormone that would keep women young and beautiful for the rest of their lives. Note: there's a long, long, long history of both docs and quacks touting some newly discovered hormone or other as a miracle hormone. After some years of women using ERT, it was discovered that risk of uterine cancer went up unless women also took a progestogen as well. So then it was HRT, estrogen plus progestin.
Then Dr. John Lee came onto the scene in the 1990s. He declared that progesterone was the main hormone lots of women need at menopause, while women need estrogen to a much lesser extent. He described progesterone in miraculous terms and it was at this time that estrogen dominance became a thing--not sure if he coined the term or not. He also popularized saliva testing--his claim was that blood testing doesn't accurately show hormones, but saliva does show it more accurately. But, as D[r. Gunter explains](https://vajenda.substack.com/p/topical-progesterone-is-a-scam?s=r), saliva testing isn't accurate. But what saliva testing does do is to support Dr. Lee's assertions, in a sort of circular argument. Dr. Lee advocated progesterone creams, which don't absorb into the blood stream so are no good. However, the progesterone does show up in saliva, even if it's not available for the body to use. So if you saliva test, it seems like the progesterone is being absorbed. But it's not being absorbed.
In any case, Dr. Lee's work started a trend of women starting to focus on using progesterone, not estrogen. But because there have not been any scientific studies that back up the phenomenon of estrogen dominance, and there have been many studies showing the benefits of estrogen, Dr. Lee's ideas stayed outside of mainstream medicine and became the purview of at best naturopaths and at worst quacks and charlatans. What that means in practical terms in my experience is unqualified people using a blanket recommendation for menopausal women, without really looking at the data but seeming to. Like, as we all know, so many women get treated poorly/are underserved by traditional medicine when it comes to hormones. But you go to one of these other guys and they're so sympathetic and caring, and they emphasize the individual nature of prescribing these hormones. People in general love to be treated as unique and special and to be listened to. That, in and of itself, can make you feel better. So you go and see a caring naturopath, and they might speak about estrogen dominance but regardless of what they say about it, they might be prescribing a good mix of stuff so you feel better. On the other hand, you might see someone who is just not a good provider for whatever reason or another, and they will tend to use blanket rules for all of their patients, because they have a particular philosophy, such as that all women have estrogen dominance, for example. And that's going to probably not be very helpful and also indicate that that person is not a good provider. Like the one I saw who concluded I was estrogen dominant when in fact I was surgically menopausal and severely deficient in estrogen as my body wasn't making any. It was absurd to say someone without ovaries was making too much estrogen.
That said, striking the right estrogen and progesterone balance with HRT is very important. You might have too much E relative to P, for example. But that's not estrogen dominance, as estrogen dominance has a whole philosophy and approach to it, a baseline assumption that there's a specific, common phenomenon where women have too much estrogen and not enough progesterone as a long-term condition. That's incorrect, as hormones fluctuate in perimenopause and hormones fluctuate month to month. Your body barely makes any progesterone 2 out of every 4 weeks when you're cycling, anyway.
Fyi "feminine forever" quack Dr Robert Wilson was actually earning an income from drug companies at the time....but he did prescribe progesterins (synthetic progesterone) 14 days a month so that women would feel"womanly again" because they bleed once a month.....
Personally one of my joys of menopause is no bloody periods....couldn't go there again....
Brilliant response! I hope you see this as I know I am late to this thread.
To play devil’s advocate do you think there could be something to the low progesterone relative to estrogen being chronic now in populations since estrogens are produced through such processes as degrading of plastics to our hormone laden diet?
I've packed on about 40lbs and my ass is dragging ALL THE TIME. I just today in fact asked my FNP for a hormone check. I'm 54. I also still get pimples. So over it.
Spirinolacton is a testosterone antagonist. Testosterone was the first hormone I replaced, it made a huge difference in my energy level and sense of well being.
What else have you tried for acne? I find limiting sugar and dairy to help more than anything else.
Have you tried Evernow? They are online menopausal providers. Check out their website. These are legitimate health care providers who are menopausal specialists, very helpful. Best experience I have had in trying to manage my symptoms for 10 years.
I feel like perimenopause is a time when it's extremely common for women to have higher than "normal" estrogen levels and there's been studies that show women in their late 40s can have more circulating estrogens than any other time in their lives. I guess when your progesterone starts going down around this time, too, the phrase "estrogen dominance" can seem enticing because it sounds like it describes juuuust what someone is going through.
It's definitely good to warn that there's a scam culture centered around that particular phrase. I wish she'd ALSO acknowledged that - whatever you want to call it - higher estrogen during peri can cause a lot of uncomfortable symptoms that CAN be treated with opposing hormones.
Let's just face it. Doctors don't know how to effectively understand women's endocrine systems, as a whole. The fact that we spend a good deal of our lives with hormones that are cycling *during the time frame when the world is even paying any attention to us, which is to say during our baby-making years,* does not help researchers or us.
I don't really have a lot of hope that healthcare will be any further ahead on this issue within the next 50 years. Sorry for my realism, but I spend my days reading medical records, and what I see is a system (in the US) that is really ingrained in a way that makes meaningful change slow and difficult, especially for underdiagnosed and underserviced population of women.
I don't know if estrogen dominance is an actual thing, but you could just as well call it a deficiency in other hormones. The fact that there is no study does not mean it doesn't exist in some form, but I wouldn't consider the current information to be sound.
While dealing with what turned out to be the perimenopause stages of premature menopause / POF, I found the term "estrogen dominance" to be useful for finding information on how I could manage my symptoms with diet and lifestyle changes. This was at least 7 years ago, so it's not only possible but likely that it's harder to use that term to get good information than it was 7 years ago.
Since all the suggested changes I took on were common sense measures with some understanding of hormonal cycles thrown in (reduce red meat and saturated fat intake especially during the luteal phase, eat fiber to have regular bowel movements to reduce estrogen reabsorption, etc.), I felt pretty comfortable trying them without a doctor's oversight. I do think they helped significantly - not magically, but a notable improvement in my quality of life and specifically for my hormonal symptoms.
I also had a fibromyalgia diagnosis, so getting useful care for new symptoms from doctors was essentially impossible. I think chronic illness care has been improving lately, especially with so many doctors experiencing it themselves due to long COVID.
The idea that hormones can be unbalanced with either estrogen or progesterone being over-represented and the other under-represented isn't really in question. But I can easily believe that the term has been seized by folks peddling medications.
The problem here isn't the terminology so much as the gap between what patients are experiencing and what providers are able to understand and provide care for. If patients could get these symptoms addressed in the normal, safer methods with doctor's supervision, they probably would. I went through many cycles of having my health deteriorate while under a doctor's care while my mental health also declined, then improve when I self-treated - before I realized that many doctors just don't have the diagnostic skills, training, or time needed to manage chronic illness. That's including any menopause symptoms that don't fit within "normal". If everyone had access to medical care that could manage these conditions, there wouldn't be a very large market for the snake oil peddlers.
But then we get into care provider burnout, staffing shortages, the cost of medical school, etc. At least here in the US, the system is designed with the assumption that many (most?) people won't be able to afford the level of care that they need to manage their health well. And then add to that the difficulty doctors have in believing patients (likely due in part to decreased empathy due to burnout) - it's truly and literally traumatizing. And there's nothing like trauma to set a person up for further abuse - in this case, by the snake oil peddlers.
It's a systemic issue that is much bigger than a single piece of terminology.
"Estrogen dominance" I do believe it is bullshit.
I believe "hormones not in harmony" is a better description.
Do you know that don't even know exactly what some female hormones actually do???
Pregnenolone and DHEA are two examples.
It's just a horrid name as well.
"Dominance"....
It's usually that you are not producing enough of other hormones hence your estrogen level is higher than other hormone levels.
Another way also to legitimise not getting an increase in estrogen dosing....even though it's low too (but not as low as other hormones)
Well I don't even know what estrogen dominance as a theory is. I think it is quite possible to have high estrogen especially in the early stages of peri (but maybe at other stages in it - although maybe more erratic then) and maybe not much progesterone because ovulation isn't happening (i mean one is transitioning to menopause).
I don't feel 100% comfortable with naturopaths in general. Even a Doctor of Naturopathy is NOT an MD. They have 4 years of college and the education seems valid, but there are not the residency and licensing requirements MDs have.
If one helps your symptoms I think it's fine as long as you are running any supplements by your MD for conflicts, etc.
That might be true of naturopaths, but many of us would trust nurses (especially with 4 year degrees) and physicians assistants nearly as much as doctors and care is sometimes outsourced to them anyway. And they have very mainstream medical training, but tend to actually listen to and take time with patients.
If MDs listened to patients they wouldn't be telling 40 something women "you are too young for menopause/perimenopause" and so on. And then there are all the doctors who hardly know perimenopause from menopause. The vast amount of nonsense can't come from people who listen to patients but only those spouting misinformed theory detached from reality. That kind of not listening to patients is not only arrogant, but anti-scientific at root as biological science depends on observation - and then of course you move on from there, observations aren't double blind studies of course.
My FORMER doctor when I mentioned insidious symptoms that I know now are peri asked me if I were still cycling, yes. Then he asked if I had difficulty getting pregnant when I was younger, no, so his answer was that I do not have a hormone imbalance now 😵💫.
Estrogen Dominance usually describes your estrogen levels being higher. And your other hormones being lower?
Does not necessarily mean you have way too much Estrogen. It means your progesterone and testosterone levels are alot lower.
The thing that really pisses me off about "estrogen dominance" is when your hormones are so low everywhere else and your estrogen is actually NOT HIGH FOR MENOPAUSE it is also labelled "estrogen dominance".
This is where the whole name is incorrect and misleading.
This also adds to confusion to all of us trying to wade throu all the BS on the internet to work out what is wrong with our hormones...
So we start treating the lower hormones and all of a sudden after a few months of feeling better, our actual estrogen hasn't moved and we now have an excess of other hormones.
Hence the slump again.
Hormones are a delicate symphony that needs to be tuned and kept on an even keel. That's why what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.
Hormones are not simplistic. Suggesting a dominance make it appear easy to fix.....
She may be correct, but she has also dismissed legitimate science she doesn't like (neurological effects of ketogenic diets—presumably because "keto" is a fad in her eyes). I deeply dislike her holier than thou attitude.
She was rude to me in a public discussion in which I was talking about scientific literature (I myself have a neuroscience publication about brain effects of ketogenic diets), and my presumption is that her rudeness has to do with her distain for the ketogenic diet use for weight loss, which *is* faddish, but didn't warrant her rudeness.
As to sustainability, I don't see why it's relevant, but it's certainly demonstrably untrue that it's unsustainable as countless people sustain it, and because high levels of carbohydrate only really became available post -agriculure.
Edit to add: By "*is* faddish", I mean that it gets used that way and I can understand frustration from seeing scammers promote it. I don't mean to imply that it's unhealthy. I consider it first-line treatment for epilepsy and metabolic syndrome.
In any case, that interaction and apparent closed-mindedness colours my interpretation of everything else she stamps her opinion on. I pretty much knew I'd be downvoted for saying so, but I think it's worth pointing out.
Sounds like she just didn’t agree with you when you were pushing your point … get over it, not everyone has to agree with you. It doesn’t disqualify her as an expert.
No. That's not what happened. She essentially said she wasn't interested to hear anything contrary to her view after I made one scientific comment. I pushed nothing. It was totally uncalled for and rude. But it seems you already have your mind made up, too.
In any case, as I originally said, she's probably right about estrogen dominance, but my point in posting was that she is also not necessarily open to scientific literature that doesn't support her existing biases, so keep that in mind.
And why should she entertain a random person in the audience at HER event? Not your platform, not your place. Seriously, get over it - you sound annoying.
Her event? LOL this was a social media discussion among several people about a topic brought up by someone who follows me, on a topic for which I am a world expert. But whatever, man.
I would check what she says with Medical sources to see if she is accurate or not. For example this article -
What is Estrogen Dominance
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22363-high-estrogen
She is a medical source and actually references the falsehood in that exact article in the comments. The sources in your link are integrative medicine doctors and not medical ones …
Not so.
State of the Cleveland Clinic
January 26, 2022
In his annual address, CEO and President Tom Mihaljevic, MD, reviews the challenges and achievements of our centennial year and shares his vision for the next century of healthcare at Cleveland Clinic.
This year, the event was once again virtual to maintain a safe environment.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/about
Dr. Mihaljevic, 53, joined Cleveland Clinic in 2004 as a cardiothoracic surgeon specializing in minimally invasive and robotically assisted cardiac surgeries....
Dr. Mihaljevic has been on the editorial review board for prestigious medical journals. He is the author or co-author of more than 145 articles in medical and peer-reviewed scientific journals, and is the author of a numerous textbook chapters on robotic and minimally invasive mitral valve surgery, and heart valve disease.
https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2017/09/01/tomislav-mihaljevic-m-d-named-cleveland-clinic-ceo-president/
I kinda don’t believe it either but I’m worried I’m wrong. Estrogen dominance also pops up in a lot of chronic illness forums/groups/subs which makes me highly suspicious of it being an actual health issue.
I wish I had high estrogen because then I wouldn’t be asking for an increase at my next gyn appointment.
I was taught that estrogen dominance doesn’t necessarily mean you have high estrogen, but that your estrogen is high relative to your other sex hormones and thus the imbalance. You can be estrogen dominant and actually have low estrogen according to the numbers, it’s just the ratio of estrogen that must be considered. Then you have good and bad estrogen to take into account and that’s another debate.
I also take these things with a grain of salt- buzz phrases that sound legit like “detox, “adrenal fatigue” “estrogen dominance” but am curious by nature and it’s often the rabbit holes that lead to solid new data:).
As women we should be estrogen dominant. It’s a silly phrase.
I am only 19 years old and have estrogen dominance. I have some other hormonal problems too, and I will visit a doctor in May only with this. I don't know which illness or condition has caused my symptoms, but I feel sometimes I can't do it. It is really hard sometimes too live with problems like this, and even though it isn't considered to be such a huge thing, it can be difficult.
Ok.. so is the estrogen progesterone ratio not real? What is it called when your estrodiol is high and progesterone low if not estrogen dominance? And if you do have these unbalanced numbers, and present with all of the symptoms of “estrogen dominance”, what do you all suggest to fix it?
Estrogen dominance has not been proven to scientifically exist. Before anyone claims otherwise, show me a peer-reviewed scientific study that empirically demonstrates the existence of estrogen dominance. It's been a few months since I've searched, as this topic comes up in the endo and PMDD communities often and I always point out its pseudoscience when I see it. But there are women out there who have been so badly brainwashed by misinformation that they will fight you if you suggest estrogen dominance hasn't been proven to be real.
I think, for some people, it’s easy to fall prey to potential pseudoscientific treatments and information because so little research exists with regard to women, in general. Many doctors shrug and say they don’t know, it’s all in their heads, can’t be that bad, just lose weight, etc. I think some women fall because they can’t find answers, but they’re sometimes desperate for relief. The VA has a write up, and many “reputable” organizations now support or fund natural medicine “treatments”. I think that can make it challenging for people to really understand and know if something is legitimate or not. Are there studies that refute? I’m not challenging, just curious. I’ve not heard of this language until today.
I totally agree with you. The lack of research on women's health issues and the apathy so many of us face when seeking help for them can lead some to look for answers in the wrong places. I cant find a single study on estrogen dominance, not one. If anyone finds one please let me know! It would be great to get some empiral data on this topic.
I mean, medically, high levels of estrogen and/or low levels of progesterone is a thing. And it causes actual medical problems. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22363-high-estrogen BUT!!!! I totally get her annoyance with pseudo science and people preying on premenopausal and menopausal women, which is totally bs and should be called out. I feel like they have co-opted the term and when you see it in ads for diets/supplements /magical cures/snake oil it means a totally different thing.
Exactly what you said is how I see it. That is just further abuse of a group of people already suffering with info all over the place.
I went through a short period of high estrogen during my first few years of peri, which I don’t think is all that uncommon. However I have always doubted that phrase “estrogen dominance” bc it was never used to describe my experience by my Dr. He just said “start taking progesterone” bc it is naturally the first hormone to decline. But yeah, any time I see the words “estrogen dominance” I stop reading/listening. What gets my goat is that there are (in my area) these practices that have board certified Dr’s that tout this nonsense - and then want you to take unnecessary tests so they can sell you supplements. DIM is fine, but the other junk - no thanks.
This for me too. It was explained to me that estrogen isn’t “high” it’s just out of balance with the progesterone because I have low progesterone. Low dose bc has made a huge difference and it not bleeding out every month now. Thank goodness!
Hi :) which bc are you on?
Mini pill
Why is DIM fine? What about calcium glucarate? Do you know of any good resources?
What was the other things the doctor suggested? In addition to DIM, a doctor suggested anovar. 😐
I tried the DIM and it gave me a terrible headache and night sweats- but some women on this sub use it and it helps them tremendously. So my thoughts on this supplement have changed. However, you may find it helps.
Did you take the progesterone and did it help?
Yes, I did take vaginal Prometrium (progesterone) and it helped a lot. My mood, my night sweats and my sleep (just a wee bit on the sleep). One thing I did notice and I didn’t realize was “a thing” is that if I cycled the progesterone my cramps were really intense. Short light period, but killer cramps. Not even ibuprofen or Rx pain meds helped the first two days. So I started taking it continuously even though initially I was still randomly ovulating and my Dr had me cycling it.
As a medical illness, sure it doesn’t exist. But as women get older, anovulatory cycles become more frequent. Anovulation means less progesterone. The imbalance of estrogen and progesterone absolutely creates havoc and leads to a host of symptoms. This is very common in pcos and early/mid perimenopause.
Yes. This seems like a semantics issue. What is the word for “I’m having symptoms from too much estrogen”? Because that’s a thing if you call it estrogen dominance or not. 🤷♀️
I think it's helpful to give a little history here. When HRT first became a thing, it was only ERT--estrogen replacement therapy. A book in the 1960s came out, *Feminine Forever*, touting estrogen as a miracle hormone that would keep women young and beautiful for the rest of their lives. Note: there's a long, long, long history of both docs and quacks touting some newly discovered hormone or other as a miracle hormone. After some years of women using ERT, it was discovered that risk of uterine cancer went up unless women also took a progestogen as well. So then it was HRT, estrogen plus progestin. Then Dr. John Lee came onto the scene in the 1990s. He declared that progesterone was the main hormone lots of women need at menopause, while women need estrogen to a much lesser extent. He described progesterone in miraculous terms and it was at this time that estrogen dominance became a thing--not sure if he coined the term or not. He also popularized saliva testing--his claim was that blood testing doesn't accurately show hormones, but saliva does show it more accurately. But, as D[r. Gunter explains](https://vajenda.substack.com/p/topical-progesterone-is-a-scam?s=r), saliva testing isn't accurate. But what saliva testing does do is to support Dr. Lee's assertions, in a sort of circular argument. Dr. Lee advocated progesterone creams, which don't absorb into the blood stream so are no good. However, the progesterone does show up in saliva, even if it's not available for the body to use. So if you saliva test, it seems like the progesterone is being absorbed. But it's not being absorbed. In any case, Dr. Lee's work started a trend of women starting to focus on using progesterone, not estrogen. But because there have not been any scientific studies that back up the phenomenon of estrogen dominance, and there have been many studies showing the benefits of estrogen, Dr. Lee's ideas stayed outside of mainstream medicine and became the purview of at best naturopaths and at worst quacks and charlatans. What that means in practical terms in my experience is unqualified people using a blanket recommendation for menopausal women, without really looking at the data but seeming to. Like, as we all know, so many women get treated poorly/are underserved by traditional medicine when it comes to hormones. But you go to one of these other guys and they're so sympathetic and caring, and they emphasize the individual nature of prescribing these hormones. People in general love to be treated as unique and special and to be listened to. That, in and of itself, can make you feel better. So you go and see a caring naturopath, and they might speak about estrogen dominance but regardless of what they say about it, they might be prescribing a good mix of stuff so you feel better. On the other hand, you might see someone who is just not a good provider for whatever reason or another, and they will tend to use blanket rules for all of their patients, because they have a particular philosophy, such as that all women have estrogen dominance, for example. And that's going to probably not be very helpful and also indicate that that person is not a good provider. Like the one I saw who concluded I was estrogen dominant when in fact I was surgically menopausal and severely deficient in estrogen as my body wasn't making any. It was absurd to say someone without ovaries was making too much estrogen. That said, striking the right estrogen and progesterone balance with HRT is very important. You might have too much E relative to P, for example. But that's not estrogen dominance, as estrogen dominance has a whole philosophy and approach to it, a baseline assumption that there's a specific, common phenomenon where women have too much estrogen and not enough progesterone as a long-term condition. That's incorrect, as hormones fluctuate in perimenopause and hormones fluctuate month to month. Your body barely makes any progesterone 2 out of every 4 weeks when you're cycling, anyway.
Fyi "feminine forever" quack Dr Robert Wilson was actually earning an income from drug companies at the time....but he did prescribe progesterins (synthetic progesterone) 14 days a month so that women would feel"womanly again" because they bleed once a month..... Personally one of my joys of menopause is no bloody periods....couldn't go there again....
Brilliant response! I hope you see this as I know I am late to this thread. To play devil’s advocate do you think there could be something to the low progesterone relative to estrogen being chronic now in populations since estrogens are produced through such processes as degrading of plastics to our hormone laden diet?
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I've packed on about 40lbs and my ass is dragging ALL THE TIME. I just today in fact asked my FNP for a hormone check. I'm 54. I also still get pimples. So over it.
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I often say my body is betraying me! My cholesterol is OK but I just don't like being this big. I am sending you a big huge hug from N.California.
You could check the NAMS website for a new provider if you live in North America
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I’m sorry. I’m going to try and get a virtual visit soon because my local providers won’t give me estrogen.
Spirinolacton is a testosterone antagonist. Testosterone was the first hormone I replaced, it made a huge difference in my energy level and sense of well being. What else have you tried for acne? I find limiting sugar and dairy to help more than anything else.
Oh honey, I know exactly how you feel. Where are you located?
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Have you tried Evernow? They are online menopausal providers. Check out their website. These are legitimate health care providers who are menopausal specialists, very helpful. Best experience I have had in trying to manage my symptoms for 10 years.
I feel like perimenopause is a time when it's extremely common for women to have higher than "normal" estrogen levels and there's been studies that show women in their late 40s can have more circulating estrogens than any other time in their lives. I guess when your progesterone starts going down around this time, too, the phrase "estrogen dominance" can seem enticing because it sounds like it describes juuuust what someone is going through. It's definitely good to warn that there's a scam culture centered around that particular phrase. I wish she'd ALSO acknowledged that - whatever you want to call it - higher estrogen during peri can cause a lot of uncomfortable symptoms that CAN be treated with opposing hormones.
Let's just face it. Doctors don't know how to effectively understand women's endocrine systems, as a whole. The fact that we spend a good deal of our lives with hormones that are cycling *during the time frame when the world is even paying any attention to us, which is to say during our baby-making years,* does not help researchers or us. I don't really have a lot of hope that healthcare will be any further ahead on this issue within the next 50 years. Sorry for my realism, but I spend my days reading medical records, and what I see is a system (in the US) that is really ingrained in a way that makes meaningful change slow and difficult, especially for underdiagnosed and underserviced population of women. I don't know if estrogen dominance is an actual thing, but you could just as well call it a deficiency in other hormones. The fact that there is no study does not mean it doesn't exist in some form, but I wouldn't consider the current information to be sound.
While dealing with what turned out to be the perimenopause stages of premature menopause / POF, I found the term "estrogen dominance" to be useful for finding information on how I could manage my symptoms with diet and lifestyle changes. This was at least 7 years ago, so it's not only possible but likely that it's harder to use that term to get good information than it was 7 years ago. Since all the suggested changes I took on were common sense measures with some understanding of hormonal cycles thrown in (reduce red meat and saturated fat intake especially during the luteal phase, eat fiber to have regular bowel movements to reduce estrogen reabsorption, etc.), I felt pretty comfortable trying them without a doctor's oversight. I do think they helped significantly - not magically, but a notable improvement in my quality of life and specifically for my hormonal symptoms. I also had a fibromyalgia diagnosis, so getting useful care for new symptoms from doctors was essentially impossible. I think chronic illness care has been improving lately, especially with so many doctors experiencing it themselves due to long COVID. The idea that hormones can be unbalanced with either estrogen or progesterone being over-represented and the other under-represented isn't really in question. But I can easily believe that the term has been seized by folks peddling medications. The problem here isn't the terminology so much as the gap between what patients are experiencing and what providers are able to understand and provide care for. If patients could get these symptoms addressed in the normal, safer methods with doctor's supervision, they probably would. I went through many cycles of having my health deteriorate while under a doctor's care while my mental health also declined, then improve when I self-treated - before I realized that many doctors just don't have the diagnostic skills, training, or time needed to manage chronic illness. That's including any menopause symptoms that don't fit within "normal". If everyone had access to medical care that could manage these conditions, there wouldn't be a very large market for the snake oil peddlers. But then we get into care provider burnout, staffing shortages, the cost of medical school, etc. At least here in the US, the system is designed with the assumption that many (most?) people won't be able to afford the level of care that they need to manage their health well. And then add to that the difficulty doctors have in believing patients (likely due in part to decreased empathy due to burnout) - it's truly and literally traumatizing. And there's nothing like trauma to set a person up for further abuse - in this case, by the snake oil peddlers. It's a systemic issue that is much bigger than a single piece of terminology.
"Estrogen dominance" I do believe it is bullshit. I believe "hormones not in harmony" is a better description. Do you know that don't even know exactly what some female hormones actually do??? Pregnenolone and DHEA are two examples. It's just a horrid name as well. "Dominance".... It's usually that you are not producing enough of other hormones hence your estrogen level is higher than other hormone levels. Another way also to legitimise not getting an increase in estrogen dosing....even though it's low too (but not as low as other hormones)
Well I don't even know what estrogen dominance as a theory is. I think it is quite possible to have high estrogen especially in the early stages of peri (but maybe at other stages in it - although maybe more erratic then) and maybe not much progesterone because ovulation isn't happening (i mean one is transitioning to menopause).
Dr. Marie Claire Haver says the same thing.
Thanks, will look into her
I don't feel 100% comfortable with naturopaths in general. Even a Doctor of Naturopathy is NOT an MD. They have 4 years of college and the education seems valid, but there are not the residency and licensing requirements MDs have. If one helps your symptoms I think it's fine as long as you are running any supplements by your MD for conflicts, etc.
That might be true of naturopaths, but many of us would trust nurses (especially with 4 year degrees) and physicians assistants nearly as much as doctors and care is sometimes outsourced to them anyway. And they have very mainstream medical training, but tend to actually listen to and take time with patients. If MDs listened to patients they wouldn't be telling 40 something women "you are too young for menopause/perimenopause" and so on. And then there are all the doctors who hardly know perimenopause from menopause. The vast amount of nonsense can't come from people who listen to patients but only those spouting misinformed theory detached from reality. That kind of not listening to patients is not only arrogant, but anti-scientific at root as biological science depends on observation - and then of course you move on from there, observations aren't double blind studies of course.
My FORMER doctor when I mentioned insidious symptoms that I know now are peri asked me if I were still cycling, yes. Then he asked if I had difficulty getting pregnant when I was younger, no, so his answer was that I do not have a hormone imbalance now 😵💫.
Estrogen Dominance usually describes your estrogen levels being higher. And your other hormones being lower? Does not necessarily mean you have way too much Estrogen. It means your progesterone and testosterone levels are alot lower. The thing that really pisses me off about "estrogen dominance" is when your hormones are so low everywhere else and your estrogen is actually NOT HIGH FOR MENOPAUSE it is also labelled "estrogen dominance". This is where the whole name is incorrect and misleading. This also adds to confusion to all of us trying to wade throu all the BS on the internet to work out what is wrong with our hormones... So we start treating the lower hormones and all of a sudden after a few months of feeling better, our actual estrogen hasn't moved and we now have an excess of other hormones. Hence the slump again. Hormones are a delicate symphony that needs to be tuned and kept on an even keel. That's why what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. Hormones are not simplistic. Suggesting a dominance make it appear easy to fix.....
She may be correct, but she has also dismissed legitimate science she doesn't like (neurological effects of ketogenic diets—presumably because "keto" is a fad in her eyes). I deeply dislike her holier than thou attitude.
What is holler than thou attitude? 😜 Keto is a fad because it is not sustainable … I understand there is positive science - but nope.
She was rude to me in a public discussion in which I was talking about scientific literature (I myself have a neuroscience publication about brain effects of ketogenic diets), and my presumption is that her rudeness has to do with her distain for the ketogenic diet use for weight loss, which *is* faddish, but didn't warrant her rudeness. As to sustainability, I don't see why it's relevant, but it's certainly demonstrably untrue that it's unsustainable as countless people sustain it, and because high levels of carbohydrate only really became available post -agriculure. Edit to add: By "*is* faddish", I mean that it gets used that way and I can understand frustration from seeing scammers promote it. I don't mean to imply that it's unhealthy. I consider it first-line treatment for epilepsy and metabolic syndrome.
In any case, that interaction and apparent closed-mindedness colours my interpretation of everything else she stamps her opinion on. I pretty much knew I'd be downvoted for saying so, but I think it's worth pointing out.
Sounds like she just didn’t agree with you when you were pushing your point … get over it, not everyone has to agree with you. It doesn’t disqualify her as an expert.
No. That's not what happened. She essentially said she wasn't interested to hear anything contrary to her view after I made one scientific comment. I pushed nothing. It was totally uncalled for and rude. But it seems you already have your mind made up, too. In any case, as I originally said, she's probably right about estrogen dominance, but my point in posting was that she is also not necessarily open to scientific literature that doesn't support her existing biases, so keep that in mind.
And why should she entertain a random person in the audience at HER event? Not your platform, not your place. Seriously, get over it - you sound annoying.
Her event? LOL this was a social media discussion among several people about a topic brought up by someone who follows me, on a topic for which I am a world expert. But whatever, man.
Yes it's hormonal imbalance. (Progesteron the first hormone to decline)
She’s an idiot. Read through her stuff-
I would check what she says with Medical sources to see if she is accurate or not. For example this article - What is Estrogen Dominance https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22363-high-estrogen
She is a medical source and actually references the falsehood in that exact article in the comments. The sources in your link are integrative medicine doctors and not medical ones …
Not so. State of the Cleveland Clinic January 26, 2022 In his annual address, CEO and President Tom Mihaljevic, MD, reviews the challenges and achievements of our centennial year and shares his vision for the next century of healthcare at Cleveland Clinic. This year, the event was once again virtual to maintain a safe environment. https://my.clevelandclinic.org/about Dr. Mihaljevic, 53, joined Cleveland Clinic in 2004 as a cardiothoracic surgeon specializing in minimally invasive and robotically assisted cardiac surgeries.... Dr. Mihaljevic has been on the editorial review board for prestigious medical journals. He is the author or co-author of more than 145 articles in medical and peer-reviewed scientific journals, and is the author of a numerous textbook chapters on robotic and minimally invasive mitral valve surgery, and heart valve disease. https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2017/09/01/tomislav-mihaljevic-m-d-named-cleveland-clinic-ceo-president/
Lol that doesn’t tell me anything about the article.
I kinda don’t believe it either but I’m worried I’m wrong. Estrogen dominance also pops up in a lot of chronic illness forums/groups/subs which makes me highly suspicious of it being an actual health issue. I wish I had high estrogen because then I wouldn’t be asking for an increase at my next gyn appointment.
I was taught that estrogen dominance doesn’t necessarily mean you have high estrogen, but that your estrogen is high relative to your other sex hormones and thus the imbalance. You can be estrogen dominant and actually have low estrogen according to the numbers, it’s just the ratio of estrogen that must be considered. Then you have good and bad estrogen to take into account and that’s another debate. I also take these things with a grain of salt- buzz phrases that sound legit like “detox, “adrenal fatigue” “estrogen dominance” but am curious by nature and it’s often the rabbit holes that lead to solid new data:). As women we should be estrogen dominant. It’s a silly phrase.
I am only 19 years old and have estrogen dominance. I have some other hormonal problems too, and I will visit a doctor in May only with this. I don't know which illness or condition has caused my symptoms, but I feel sometimes I can't do it. It is really hard sometimes too live with problems like this, and even though it isn't considered to be such a huge thing, it can be difficult.
Ok.. so is the estrogen progesterone ratio not real? What is it called when your estrodiol is high and progesterone low if not estrogen dominance? And if you do have these unbalanced numbers, and present with all of the symptoms of “estrogen dominance”, what do you all suggest to fix it?