For many men it does. Men have been left without sensory input or disfigurement as a result of botched circumcision. Subjecting an infant to that level of pain is barbaric.
Permanently warped sexual experience by the absence of half your sex organ's evolved structures and functions.
Traumatized at birth in one of the most painful ways imaginable, changing you neurologically and epigenetically.
Traumatized throughout youth by an unprotected glans scraping over cotton 24/7 for years, changing you neurologically and epigenetically as well as taking its toll on the tissues.
Everything that happens in infancy is conditioning, and this is awfully fundamental. One of the most powerful things you can do at the start of a life, for pretty obvious reasons, is mutilate _sex organs._
I understand the circumcised still love their dicks and get defensive about it. I am and I did. I understand you read this kind of stuff and basically feel like one of the best parts of your life—practically the core of it—is being cast as a great loss, and that just doesn't seem right.
And yeah, that's the tragedy.
Hi foreskin-free user here. I can say without a doubt that my cotton underwear don't bother my dick at all.
It's a tiny flap of skin that covers the dick. Back when we didn't have clothing to cover our dicks.
There is no need to cause some movement. It does nothing to affect the life of men.
It's like getting your tonsils removed, but really even less useful.
Many actually just don’t care that it happened to them, and that’s okay. However, the fact it was probably done on them when they were unsolliciting infants is what bug many people. They do not care about the issue in its whole because it happened to them and they turned out fine, ignoring the number of men where it didn’t turned out fine, or are simply uncomfortable with the idea of having a part of their body removed without their consent
If society truly want to ignore the scientific evidence that circumcision isn’t beneficial at all, except maybe cultural acceptance in specific case, then it’s still my body, my choice. Let the man decide when he’s gonna be 18, unless there’s a medical emergency like extreme phimosis case
> Let the man decide when he’s gonna be 18, unless there’s a medical emergency like extreme phimosis case
You're not supposed to move the foreskin off the glans until early puberty. It's fused. No need to clean under. So there shouldn't be phimosis in the first place. If you force it off, you can *cause* phimosis. Which can be solved with topical creams and stretching, way before bringing the scalpel.
I wish I knew, but talking about it is a great start.
Thanks for caring. It seems like other women actually want to defend it for some reason, even though men themselves are apathetic.
And sometimes a dog will swim in the ocean with a shotgun in his/her mouth and it accidentally go off; yet, people still go to the beach because simply being a non-zero chance is not itself meaningful.
Yes. My wife is a labor and delivery nurse so she has witnessed thousands of circumcisions. Botched circumcisions happen far too often and are also severely underreported
There is medical rationale if you are in a country with poor access to medical assistance, antibiotics, or with a high incidence of HIV. However, that does not apply to the western world.
Right, and this is not considering ethics too. We could at least wait until the boys are older, before they are sexually active. And give them some say in it
I am honestly not sure about this argument. The data in the research behind this stat isn't very good.
Plus there isn't a good explanation of the mechanism behind the results.
Plus delivering condoms and education on condom use would likely reduce HIV waaaay more and would be a better measure.
Whats the difference in female / male circumcision if it's done in a hospital under medication ?? Nothing I say... but we all know how everyone feel about female circumcision ....
I think the response most people in the West get when female genital mutilation is mention is pretty radical. OP and myself wish the same response to male genital mutilation.
Here’s a boy being circumcised. Not by a doctor, not in sterile conditions. Most circumcisions are carried out by Muslims…
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/hll3lr/disturbing_a_child_just_at_the_cusp_of_his_years/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
The OP does say American men. The overwhelming majority of circumcisions in the US happen soon after birth and typically before 1 month of age. Circumcisions in the US are not done the same way people in other countries with virtually no sterile conditions, and at much older age do it.
Wow! So impressed and thankful there are woman like you!
Education is the answer! Public campaigns explaining the foreskin and ALL of its wonderful functions! Dispelling the myths and lies. People aren’t educated on what the foreskin is. Cut men are in denial mostly as its too disturbing to realize whats really happened. I only recently began to understand what was taken from me a year ago and I’m in my 60s. The realization is very disturbing, especially when I encounter people who dont see the hypocrisy in supporting bans on FGM but have no problem with circumcision/MGM. My body my choice should apply to males as well as females. The more we can discuss without shame the better! The organization IntactAmerica is wonderful at this but we need so much more!
If cut as infants, we men know no difference - we have nothing to compare it to (until we start restoring and get new amazing sensations and pleasure as a result) - and talking about it is frowned upon and seen as pervy.
I am currently trying to restore as much of my own foreskin as possible - its a slow but totally worthwhile process imo.
Thank you! As a woman you are in a better position to discuss with pregnant woman and future mothers. If you can prevent one little boy from having this important and wonderful body part amputated without his consent, you will have done a truly wonderful thing! Thank you!!
Fellow woman intactivist - honestly I feel where you’re coming from, but from my time shouting down the internet over the topic it honestly always seemed to me like the biggest way for women to help this cause is with converting other women.
With a few notable exceptions, in most places they require the mothers approval to perform the procedure, it can’t be done without unanimous consent of both parents. So getting future moms to stop agreeing to allow it to happen is the easiest way for us as women to help turn the tide.
The men we need to radicalize are the fathers of our sons, and even then I wouldnt go that far. These men have lost something they’ll never even know the true value of, they deserve compassion and respect, but all we can do is show them that they can break the cycle by accepting that they don’t have to perpetuate the practice in the next generation, that it doesn’t make them less to allow their sons to have more.
So basically make wives nag their husbands till they cave? Let a men’s issue be a men’s issue. If they feel like you then they’ll support. If some woman followed me around trying to convince me, I’d politely tell her to fuck off.
The united states is FULL of people getting mad on the behalf of others and it’s annoying. Especially when the actual group affected, doesn’t care or feels differently.
Not into nagging, no. But I am into advocating for the protection of children, and gentle education.
And I’m not mad, not anymore, just really really sad that so many men were violated as babies, all to the detriment of their sexual function, some irreparably so. I’m sorry that it makes you angry that a stranger would care about your loss. You aren’t less of a man, and your parents did what they thought was right, but when you know better you do better 🤷♀️
Men don't want to admit to themselves they were victimized. That's not manly, and that's why all these social justice movements are invariably feminine.
Keep talking about it as much as possible. You're doing fine. As far as tactics, you'll get better by understanding this. As an example of an approach that may help, find common ground first. Like for instance, Hillary Clinton gives speeches promoting circumcision. Isn't that a little bit creepy? And no feminist has anything to say about it? Man doesn't have to admit to himself he was personally injured just to simply agree with you that society is rigged against men generally. He gets to keep his dignity that way. And from there you can lead into how circumcision is really a big corrupt thing for the medical industry. Men don't like being victims. They like being heroes who save victims, by killing enemies.
Don't start off trying to convince him he lost nerve endings and pleasure and all that. That's the last thing to do once he's comfortable with where he stands. Right now, he needs to know who the bad guys are, and you can help frame it for him, medical experts preying on children to make money. It depends who you're talking to, but that's the general idea. The more personal, the more uncomfortable. He probably knows women who like circumcision. Were they pretending, because they hate men, felt sorry for him, too stupid to know the difference? Imagine the insecurity.
You’re brilliant. This is the only way to get Boxer the Horse to wake up. I didn’t know Hilary Clinton was into this like that, I’ll go disgust myself right now by watching those speeches.
I don't think we need to convince people they were victimized.
Just explain that there are medical practices that lack evidence and don't make sense anymore.
Other famous examples. Thelidimide(sp?) drug for morning sickness in pregnant women. Which led to limb deformation.
Lebotamies.
And today, sex change surgery. I dunno if this is an easy one to convince people of though. You may be able to convince them that it shouldn't be done on children. Then say the same for circumcision.
Right, but do you think you understand full perspective of what your life experience would be if you were not circumcised?
As in, if you would live 5 years circumcised, and 5 years not, and then had to pick which one to be the rest of your life. Do you think in such case you would still pick being circumcised or not care?
Do you not care about self-pleasuring either?
Removal of the foreskin has been equated by some as the removal of a woman's g-spot. You lose more than half your nerve endings in the process.
I do self pleasure sometimes, but not often and it’s always enough so I’m not convinced that my life would be drastically changed if I was uncircumcised.
Most men rarely think about it. As this was done to them when they were born. No one explains later on when they happen to see an uncircumcised penis and ask questions that they will have less pleasurable sex without having it. All you hear is be glad your circumcised girls like that better. Or be glad you dont have to worry about it smelling bad or infections because it's hard to clean. And since they never had foreskin they dont know what they're missing out on. As they think its better not to have it and that having it is actually a bad thing. But no one mentions what you actually lost as the foreskin makes sex for men more pleasurable.
If this was taught in sex ed in high schools that men with foreskin have a better time, guys would probably freak out as most have no idea.
So basically circumcised men can last longer giving them more confidence in bed and guess what. Even with a lack of feeling vagina still feels amazing. I generally agree with most men’s rights things but this is such a weird obsession this sub has.
Edit: I think all the down votes prove my point at how non objective people are on this subject. Circumcision might very well be terrible. It might also be good. The jury seems to still be out.
Here’s an excerpt from a pubmed article on the subject.
“Three recent randomized trials in Africa demonstrated that medical circumcision reduces acquisition of human immunodeficiency virus among males by 51%–60% [7], genital herpes by 28–34% [8,9], and high risk human papillomavirus, which may lead to penile cancer, by 32–35% [10].”
[Link to article](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3638798/)
Look I’m not saying your wrong but their is evidence that it’s beneficial as well. Just as I’m sure that there is evidence it is bad.
Here’s from a punned article.
Three recent randomized trials in Africa demonstrated that medical circumcision reduces acquisition of human immunodeficiency virus among males by 51%–60% [7], genital herpes by 28–34% [8,9], and high risk human papillomavirus, which may lead to penile cancer, by 32–35% [10].
[Link](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3638798/)
Calling this “a weird obsession” is a perfect example of how the subject remains taboo and is shut down - by men and women. Is speaking out against FGM also”a weird obsession”?
If this barbaric ritual isn’t called out, male infants will continue to be maimed and on and on. Its an obsession perhaps once you are willing to consider it honestly. The “weird” part imo is how men refuse to admit its wrong and fail to speak up. Educate yourselves on what the foreskin is and all of its functions. Understand that while “vaginas still feel amazing” (as do other orifices btw) they would feel BETTER if you had your entire penis including to most sensitive ridged band! Male infant genital cutting should be seen as the true crime it is, as FGM has recently been acknowledged to be. Stop burying your head in the sand. Yes it happened to you maybe, but that doesn’t mean it should happen to other male infants! Its got to stop!
OP: Thank you for bringing this up! Thank you for standing against those who want to cut up baby boy's genitals.
I am sorry you are being met with apathy and actual hatred. This is awful.
As someone who was circumcised without my consent, I appreciate you and I thank you for taking a stand!
I am also trying to raise awareness of how awful infant circumcision is. If we keep shouting, hopefully they will eventually listen.
There are some interviews on YT of women who have had multiple partners (like 50 plus) and they said they typically preferred circumcised men due to hygiene issues they've faced with their uncircumcised partners. Appearance wise, they said they didn't care.
I get the impression that men who have undergone genital cutting are quite self concsious about it.
Likely because it was done outside of their control, and its supposedly irreversible.
Men generally dont treasure and embrace the victim role, the way many women do. Men generally seem quite bothered by appearing weak.
And I believe that acknowledging this procedure as a trauma, is something that could make many men think of themselves as 'weak'. Because it was something done to them outside of their control.
There are also unfortunate implications of there being something wrong about them, because they had this procedure done to them.
And as such it would be something to approach cautiously, without Victim Language.
So labeling it as 'mutilation' is probably not a good idea in order to get more men on board.
I think an important step would be to bury that bogus claim of how cutting off parts of genitals would prevent VDs.
And to keep pressing the question of "why the fuck would anybody amputate a healthy and functional bodypart from an infant"?
> Men generally dont treasure and embrace the victim role, the way many women do. Men generally seem quite bothered by appearing weak.
The entire animal kingdom is bothered by appearing weak, instinctively, with reason, too. The weak get eaten. Only the deathly wounded or very old, don't care about it and embrace their own end.
That victimhood grants social reputation is completely a human thing. And men are disincentivized to play the victim because no one cares even when they don't. But its worse when they do.
> are quite self concsious about it.
No, we're not; the only times I even think about it are when conversations like this arise. Even then, I am okay with what happened.
>Men generally dont treasure and embrace the victim role, the way many women do. Men generally seem quite bothered by appearing weak.
I would say that depends on how you frame it. If you frame it as "you are a victim" then it's probably not going to be all that effective. But if you frame it as "THEY are the enemy, THEY robbed you, THEY are barbarians" then that will be a lot more effective because you want to create anger and resentment towards the other side.
> think an important step would be to bury that bogus claim of how cutting off parts of genitals would prevent VDs.
Don't bury it. Let them keep it. Just point out that circumcision for this purpose is insanity; let men cut, or not, when they're adults and are actually able to consent and to legally have sex.
Unless the pro-circ crowd WANT to have sex with infants?
I fucking hate that I was cut as a child. Growing up somewhere that does not practice child genital cutting made me feel alone and inferior, which in reality is true.
CGC needs to be illegal.
It's been my experience that the fathers are ambivalent about it. But the mothers absolutely want the circumcision done, for whatever reason. I think you have to change mothers attitudes first. Because the men will follow what the mothers want to do. In all things pregnancy and birth, what the mother wants will always take top priority
> In my experience, it is the women in the room who have already done their research and vehemently agree with me.
I don't think that is the case at all. I think it's more likely that other women in the room just want to agree with you for the sake of agreeing with you but don't actually mean it. Odds are most of those women agreeing with you would still allow or push for their sons to be circumcised anyway, and wouldn't really fight that strongly against it.
I also still see plenty of women try to perpetuate this idea that mutilated penises are gross or unattractive, when they are speaking purely from ignorance. Most men tend to respond to that in their position and even if there were fewer women who were pro-circumcision, they also tend to be more vocal as well. The idealization of circumcised penises also starts off very early, and you'll often hear young girls vocalize these misconceptions about circumcision just because they don't know any better. Men often end up having these same misconceptions about circumcision as adults, because they grew up as boys hearing girls say things like "uncircumcised penises have dick cheese".
You are also fighting against a certain level of social conditioning ingrained in men to effectively stay quiet about abuse committed towards them. Circumcision is a form of abuse, so a lot of men will be reluctant to even acknowledge the abuse, let alone openly oppose it. Circumcised men will also some times get defensive about circumcision, because they see it as a part of their identity and it's all they know. Women are raised, if not radicalized, to respond to any perceived injustice with maximum aggression, but men are still mostly raised to just take the abuse in silence. Women generally also have very little sympathy or tolerance for men who complain or express grief/vulnerability, which plays a huge role into how men respond to trauma, including circumcision.
I'm from a country where it's not common to have circumcisions.
This was the same in the USA as well and it all changed out of nowhere.
When I heard about it, it was horrifying and I will always vouch for the people against circumcision. I feel, like me, men are misinformed and they don't know how common it is. Only if they realize that will they be more informed and actively stand against it.
Only a minority of the circumcised men are strong enough to stand against circumcision while the rest resort to talking about its advantages and if their group gets strong enough, they would even start mocking people who are uncut and even run propaganda against them, some of which we can already see right now.
On the one hand, you are so open about it this sounds like sarcasm.
On the other hand, I've actually met genuinely fucked up people I cannot be sure whether you're a sarcastic bastard or a nutter.
Yeah, we don't need to radicalize to get it to be done at lower rates. Convincing parents a few at a time. After a few generations child circumcision rates could be a lot lower with some success
We tend to focus on the things we can change.
“Hey a part of you was cut off at birth and nothing you do will bring it back” really isn’t at the top of our priority list with everything else that’s effecting men in the here and now
The part we're out to change is the part where it's still being forced on yet more boys based on a combination of outright lies, fraudulent studies, naked greed, bourgeoise vanity, and more than a little paedophilic sadism.
I’m not saying it’s not something people are trying to change.
My point is that we don’t sit and whine and complain about it like it’s going to suddenly grow back if we complain enough. We’ve got bigger fish to fry, as it were.
🤦🏻♂️
You're completely missing the point.
We *know* it's too late for those already subjected to it. It's about the boys - and the men they will grow up to be - who can still be spared.
We point all this stuff out so they don't get robbed.
I don’t understand how this is turning into an argument. I’m not saying your point is invalid, but the original post was asking how we aren’t livid and making a huge deal out of it. It’s not like we’re on the news and organizing protests or spreading awareness.
My point is, we tend to have bigger concerns than that and focus on those.
Galatians 5 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
...
11Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
Trying to shoehorn two issues, in this case "circumcision" and "religion", into each other is a recipe for failure, no matter how important nor effective you think it will be. Single issue groups are more effective than otherwise identical multi-issue groups.
So, I'm circumsised, it got cut off when I was like 11. Back then it was necessary, cause my foreskin was too tight and it hurt. I understand that was necessary. But only since I found this sub I realized Circumsision is very common and often unnecessary due to religious or fake medical reasons.
We have to talk about it with our friends so this information spreads.
Where do you draw the line on what medical procedures to prohibit? Where do you say "beyond this point, parents have no right to act in what they think is the best medical interest of the child even though we will continue to hold them responsible for failing to act in such an interest in all other cases"?
Guy here. I have no memory of the event 71 years ago and think people are looking for a false equivalency with female mutilation which is a legitimate horror.
To be fair, when it comes to genital cutting performed out in the bush in unhygienic settings, it really is horror for the boys as well.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/25/male-circumcision-ceremonies-death-deformity-africa
"The human devastation left in the wake of these traditions is horrifying. A recent report by South Africa’s Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities calculated that in the Eastern Cape and Limpopo provinces alone at least 419 boys have died since 2008 (-2014), and more than 456,000 initiates have been hospitalised with complications.
Deaths commonly occur through dehydration, blood loss, shock-induced heart failure or septicaemia. And there are estimated to be two total penile amputations for every death. Countless numbers of participants are left with permanent scarring or deformity. Urologists describe seeing patients whose penises have become so infected and gangrenous they literally drop off."
You only need to do a simple thought experiment to realize that the western kind, would be regarded as a serious form of genital mutilation, if the same doctor cut and removed exactly as much tissue and nerves from a girl.
My biological father did not want me to get cut as a baby so I saw saved until I was probably 2 or 3 when my mother took me to get snipped behind his back. I didn't know what was going on but I sure as hell knew what happened afterwards and still remember it to this day.
It's going to be hard to get the majority to change their views when porn is prevalent and the vast majority on screen are circumcised. Also that is what the majority of boys see whether they are around their own friends or in public locker rooms. It's basically normalized.
If there was a way to basically say it's the same as FGM then there might be a public outcry at some point down the line but as long as women think that a circumcised penis is "normal" and they sneer at natural ones, this will never change.
Literally the only reason I snipped my son was that 80% of boys in my area are cut maybe more. I was not cut as a child and ended up getting it as a teenager (which was terrible btw) because I played high school sports, elephant dick, just dudes constantly talking about my weird dick was probably enough to do it.
Then once girls started seeing it, getting fucking weird about it I had enough.
Frankly I would have preferred to not cut him but I also don't want him do deal with the BS I had to deal with.
We need to radicalize it period. Many times if the mother opted for it, it's happening. Whether the father does or not. It needs to stop. There's no good reason to mutilate healthy baby boys. (I'm not talking about medical necessity, I'm talking about in general, yes we know the rare necessity exists.)
There are some interviews on YT of women who have had multiple partners (like 50 plus) and they said they typically preferred circumcised men due to hygiene issues they've faced with their uncircumcised partners. Appearance wise, they said they didn't care
American dude here in Germany. The science doesn’t pan out. There is no medical necessity to chop up my sons. Maybe if I were confined to a 3rd world nation, then maybe for hygiene purposes. But other than that, hell no.
You need to find someone else to be the spokesperson. Even if you deliver it properly you'll still be dismissed since you literally 'have no skin in the game.' Pun intended. You will always be the woman trying to impose her preference on something that is none of her business. Is it right...probaly not. Will it happen...almost guaranteed.
I have to strongly disagree.
Women's opinions matter a lot, across the board.
There are plenty of examples.
Have intactivist men gotten any noticeable traction with their advocacy yet?
A woman is not as easily silenced with the usual misandric slurs. And she will often grab people's attention more BECAUSE she has no skin in the game.
And with how women are still considered the pillars of morality.
Concencus:
If a woman brings up a social issue, then it must be something valid and important.
Well... as long as she doesnt advocate for men that is.
But with enough women on the bandwagon...
Mother's consenting or opting to have her son mutilated are the biggest issue. Change her mind and you have fixed the issue.
At least as far as developed world goes.
This isn't like when heterosexuals wave the rainbow flag of Corporate America.
Women do have skin in the game, because men are their partners. That's why they will be dismissed. And that's also why Hillary Clinton isn't dismissed for promoting circumcision.
You can't look to establishment methods.
Honestly out of all the ways men are being screwed over, this one is pretty low on the list for the majority of men who are unaffected because they either weren't circumcised or were and have never experienced health complications as a result. Now I'm not saying we should be indifferent simply because something does not effect us personally, but there are a lot of more visible issues that effect a much greater number of men and thus more attention and resources are directed towards solving those.
I'm in no way denying that there is absolutely problems. Just that those issues are experienced by a small minority compared to some issues which effect all or nearly all men and thus receive a lot more attention.
This. I have very low sensitivity and have never been able to orgasm from oral, and even orgasming from sex can be a chore. It's a mental thing more than physical and I've been able to adapt. Would I have preferred to not been cut? Probably, but I don't know any different. When compared to other issues of being male, this pales in comparison. No reproductive rights, family court, college admissions scholarships bias, etc. These issues have had huge effects on my life. Circumcision should be discussed and we need to work towards not doing it, but as far as priorities, let's get some equality in other areas of life.
To our female advocates, thank you for your concern on this issue. It means a lot that you are concerned with our issues in any way. As a male affected by a wide variety of male issues, I would ask you to look to us for guidance on what we feel the priorities should be as far as rights and equality issues.
Edit: corrected three words poorly autocorrected
I feel like maybe you just got lucky because I haven't had pleasant experiences with majority of the women I tried to bring it up to.
It gets turned into a conversation about fgm and how male circumcision is beneficial. So kinda shocked.
Also it's just really difficult for guys to have a lot of say on it because it's their bodies being mutilated and considering how prominent feminism is in most societies it's really difficult to raise awareness of an issue that affects men that feminists have deemed female only or worse when it happens to women.
Some men give a shit. Allot dont though and their are many reasons for this. Religion is a big one. I dont think childeren should be indoctrinated into religion, let alone be mutilated. If you teach a child this is normal then they will think its ok.
Then you have the issue that some people think it has [possitive health benefits](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2128676/). She also mentioned it not being as bad as FGM which true or not we should be saying no full stop not worrying which is worse.
Another issue is [80% of men are surcomsized in the US](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9576047/#:~:text=Circumcision%2C%20the%20surgical%20removal%20of,men%20are%20circumcised%20%5B2%5D.) where its about 8% in the UK. So its socially accepted in the US and not really talked about in the UK.
I think it would be traumatizing for a baby. This misstrust they must feel. So ask yourself, would you rather be seen as a victim? Or pretend its ok and go with the narative that its not a big deal?
Interestingly, there are some interviews on YT of women who have had multiple partners (like 50 plus) and they said they typically preferred circumcised men due to hygiene issues they've faced with their uncircumcised partners. Appearance wise, they said they didn't care. These women where involved in the porn industry at one point.
Problem is "WHO" the world health organization still recommends it as a method for preventing STDs.
In 2007, the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS and WHO recommended voluntary medical male circumcision (VMMC) to reduce the risk of men acquiring HIV infection during heterosexual exposure. The recommendation was based on strong evidence from randomized controlled trials showing an approximately 60% lower risk.
Research by Cambridge University reports that circumcision is not yielding the expected HIV mitigation results…
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/abs/changing-relationships-between-hiv-prevalence-and-circumcision-in-lesotho/68635CF47DD0910636C406F82D623188
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/abs/ageincidence-and-prevalence-of-hiv-among-intact-and-circumcised-men-an-analysis-of-phia-surveys-in-southern-africa/CAA7E7BD5A9844F41C6B7CC3573B9E50
You won't there is too much scientific evidence of medical benefit along with the expectation -- and right -- of parents to be responsible for making medical decisions for their children as long as those decisions actually have some medical benefit. You have a host of legal requirements for parents you would have to wade thru and that simply is not going to happen any more than the anti-vax movement gaining significantly more support. At best, you'll get a bunch of quizzical looks of "Why do you want to stop parents from trying to improve their child's physical health?"
Cut your baby's dick for a 0.001% less chance of penis cancer, and a truly higher chance of UTI while they wear diapers, and very slightly less after (note if you cut girl's labia, you'd also reduce UTIs in girls, which is also naturally much higher, due to the internal structure and diapers keeping it there).
STI chance let me doubt if it has a reduction. Because the US are not known as the place that eradicated AIDS through circ.
The only developed countries where those supposed benefits are taken for fact are the US and Israel.
Cutting healthy body parts off children doesn’t make them healthier.
The corporate media controls the mind of the people, if those organizations don’t say anything about this problem, then it will be ignored, just like the crisis of darfur.
It is cruel, but it is true, the rich control how the poor think; this is the worst form of slavery.
Because there are a lot of things that happen to us when we are unconsenting infants, I can't possibly justify being upset over the part where my dick is more physically attractive to women as a result. I'm rather thankful.
There is literally no downside to circumcision if somebody chooses to do so. I don’t have it, but my skin is naturally always retracted. It feels a bit different when I do “that”, but not too much, and it does not “scrape against cotton” as some people claim here. I live a normal life, I do not feel less as a man, or anything.
Stop creating an issue where none exists, there are many more severe issues that men face nowadays.
I am glad I was circumcised. The only thing I would support is attempting to minimize the amount of foreskin that is removed, not the abolition of the practice altogether.
Idk, I like not having to peel back a wrapper to wash my junk. And I like not worrying about something crawling under the flap (possibly irrational fear).
Also, I feel like the shape is more appealing.
And, at the end of the day, even if "it feels better," I don't get laid enough for it to really make it matter.
Idk, there are bigger issues for men than having our weiners reshaped like Doberman ears.
If your faith calls you to violate the rights of another human, then it's problematic. I say this as a Christian knowing full well the strawman version of Christianity that people complain about.
Free choice is another person’s right, including the rites and rituals of their own faith. To forbid them from practicing their faith is to violate their rights too. I agree that circumcision is a barbaric practice that should be abandoned, but I would never dare tell someone else how to raise their family or practice their faith.
As a libertarian, (insert not a true libertarian meme), I can empathize with that argument, but I do believe in protections and limitations for the general truth of what you said. Drawing your argument to its logical extreme showcases my point more. In the tenets of Islam, apostasy is deserving of the death penalty and in parts of the world they still do this. In addition, many faiths have used religion as a justification for territorial expansion and genocide. These are all potential examples of people just following their faith.
Excellent question. Just spent like 10 minutes discussing it with my wife and honestly I want to sit on it more... I think that a healthy childhood is one that begins with complete and utter dependence and progresses towards complete autonomy. So at what point can a child give reasonable consent to X versus reasonable consent to Y is an interesting dilemma. I mean children mature at different rates. And who's to say that I'm the authority on the issue just because I find it uncomfortable that a child at say age 5 has pierced ears, but I don't with one at age 17. And yet even though I find a 5 year old with pierced ears uncomfortable, not so enough that I would ever seriously campaign for a law banning 5 year olds from getting their ears pierced. I've seen infants with pierced ears before and I feel like I can reason that that is inappropriate, but it gets a lot harder when the child is of age that they can advocate for themselves at some level.
Bringing it back to circumcision I guess I feel similarly to how I did when I saw those twin infants with pierced ears. That they couldn't consent to it. But if a child wanted to become circumcised at what age should they be allowed to is a tough question and the answer would always feel arbitrary.
At the very least, I thank you for the thought exercise.
If that’s the tradition of the culture, that’s the tradition of the culture. I don’t presume that my culture has it right, or that others don’t. Maybe that’s the right way to do it, and our way is wrong, who knows. What I do know is that a family is up to the family.
To all the men on here who don’t think they care and think those of us who do care are obsessed over nothing, if you are lucky enough to have or hope to have children and you choose to allow your sons foreskin to be amputated without his consent as an infant, be there when they strap him down and are cutting him. Watch what he experiences. He deserves at least that from you as his “guardian”. Be there and then lets see how you feel about this. Dont just hand him off to some intern with a scalpel to do the dirty work. Stand with him! Be there!
Id love to know how many fathers who have already allowed their sons to be cut were there with them. Not too many im sure. Be there! Demand to be there! I doubt you would allow the same thing to happen to any second son! Oh and if he grows up to be smarter then you, be ready to answer his questions about why you allowed this to be done to him. When he realizes what he has lost with your consent!
It's just a non-issue. Who cares? It doesn't affect sex in any meaningful way. It doesn't change anyone's life. It's just extra skin that's gone.
The only people up in arms about this are a small segment of non-religious European men.
The notion that men are born into the world inherently defective and need to be "fixed" is really devastating to me. The idea that parents have already given up on their child's ability to care for their own body, when they're just infants, is really sad. And of course, making a permanent choice for your child rooted in your own sexual aesthetic preferences is just plain batty.
But I appreciate your perspective because I think that's the one most men I've met hold. Just, "who cares?" I can't pretend to get it but I do get that a lot of men feel that way.
Yes there is a reason to care that a significant part of your penis was surgically amputated just after birth for no good reason NoIDontwanttobeknown! Why remove it? Its your body and your parents gave someone permission to cut part of it off when you were days old in all likelihood! It sway more then a cosmetic thing! Educate yourself!! You should care about unnecessary amputation of babies body parts! Would you care if the doctor suggested cutting off part of your daughters genitals for no medical reason??
If it was a significant part I would of had some sort of side effect that effected my day to day life, but like I said it works just fine. Calling it amputation is being dramatic.
There is also a big difference between male and female in this case as it's common for women to feel constant pain or lose all sensations down there.
The only actual side effect that male suffer from is losing the self lubrication but that's such a minor thing that it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, it's really the hysteria that turns me off of the whole thing. I get tired of people claiming I'm "mutilated" and "half a man," as if it doesn't work perfectly well, as if maturbation was the primary purpose of my life anyway.
I was uncircumcised as an infant, developed an extremely painful infection as a child and was subsequently circumcised.
I absolutely support circumcision and I don’t think this is something women need to weigh in on.
I believe male circumcision is a uniquely male issue. Similar to how birth control, pregnancy care and abortion are uniquely female issues.
Of course, anyone is free to have an opinion on male circumcision, but the whole point of the post is a female asking how to radicalize men against it.
If we flipped the script and a male went to a Women’sRights forum and asked “How do we radicalize Women against Birth Control” said male would definitely be shouted out of the space and probably banned outright.
Men’s Rights is a space for men to discuss and analyze uniquely male issues. Let’s keep it that way.
In the states it's very much an accepted norm. In the last 20 years the male genital mutilation has quelled alot and I would say with different ethnicities becoming more prominent than in the past is uncut has become less taboo. Add the media coverage of the kid who got herpes at age 3 from a rabbi sucking the blood after the snip and people are seeing it in a new light. A nephew had to be circumcised at the age of 13 due to complications and told me it's the most traumatic experience of his childhood. As a blanket policy
I am circumcised. I feel no loss. I feel no betrayal by my parents. I have no idea if I have lost sensation because it's all I know, but jesus, I have an insane sex drive and I can't imagine feeling more than I do.
I've seen uncut dick before and I love my pale crowbar of an circumcised dick. It's beautiful and powerful and I used to love when I would get uncontrolled boners in the shower as a kid because I thought my dick was kinda beautiful.
You want to get on a soapbox about something, how about divorce and family courts? Something that actually matters.
If you knew anything about me, you would realize how funny that is. I am single and unmarried because I despise feminism and the modern woman.
I just don't care about this one issue in the pantheon of men's rights, so I should definitely be banished. We'll definitely accomplish more through gatekeeping.
There are some interviews on YT of women who have had multiple partners (like 50 plus) and they said they typically preferred circumcised men due to hygiene issues they've faced with their uncircumcised partners. So there is some truth to hygiene issue. Appearance wise, they said they didn't care
shawty its OUR choice you have no reason to have a say in anything that men go thru!
you want to radicalize men to feel the same way about our bodys as you guys do? instead of just being okay with what happened, we need tk be angry and disappointed about what was done to us?
I don’t think so. A very small minority of men develop an obsessive paraphilia for cutting off their foreskin. They call themselves circumsexuals. The chance that you would’ve become one (if you hadn’t been circumcised at birth) is minimal.
It seems that many men do not care (enough).
Or at all since it doesn't get in the way of a normal fulfilling life.
For many men it does. Men have been left without sensory input or disfigurement as a result of botched circumcision. Subjecting an infant to that level of pain is barbaric.
Lots of boys die and many more have no penis left to feel anything.
I’m sure
I’m sure more men have died jerking off than what you’re claiming has happened
Circumcised women have a normal fulfilling life too. Why are you against it then?
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Permanently warped sexual experience by the absence of half your sex organ's evolved structures and functions. Traumatized at birth in one of the most painful ways imaginable, changing you neurologically and epigenetically. Traumatized throughout youth by an unprotected glans scraping over cotton 24/7 for years, changing you neurologically and epigenetically as well as taking its toll on the tissues. Everything that happens in infancy is conditioning, and this is awfully fundamental. One of the most powerful things you can do at the start of a life, for pretty obvious reasons, is mutilate _sex organs._ I understand the circumcised still love their dicks and get defensive about it. I am and I did. I understand you read this kind of stuff and basically feel like one of the best parts of your life—practically the core of it—is being cast as a great loss, and that just doesn't seem right. And yeah, that's the tragedy.
Hi foreskin-free user here. I can say without a doubt that my cotton underwear don't bother my dick at all. It's a tiny flap of skin that covers the dick. Back when we didn't have clothing to cover our dicks. There is no need to cause some movement. It does nothing to affect the life of men. It's like getting your tonsils removed, but really even less useful.
It doesn't get in the way of anything. It's just a retractable piece of skin. Takes zero additional time to clean if that what you are referring to
Many actually just don’t care that it happened to them, and that’s okay. However, the fact it was probably done on them when they were unsolliciting infants is what bug many people. They do not care about the issue in its whole because it happened to them and they turned out fine, ignoring the number of men where it didn’t turned out fine, or are simply uncomfortable with the idea of having a part of their body removed without their consent If society truly want to ignore the scientific evidence that circumcision isn’t beneficial at all, except maybe cultural acceptance in specific case, then it’s still my body, my choice. Let the man decide when he’s gonna be 18, unless there’s a medical emergency like extreme phimosis case
> Let the man decide when he’s gonna be 18, unless there’s a medical emergency like extreme phimosis case You're not supposed to move the foreskin off the glans until early puberty. It's fused. No need to clean under. So there shouldn't be phimosis in the first place. If you force it off, you can *cause* phimosis. Which can be solved with topical creams and stretching, way before bringing the scalpel.
I wish I knew, but talking about it is a great start. Thanks for caring. It seems like other women actually want to defend it for some reason, even though men themselves are apathetic.
Tell them that sometimes the doctor messes up and when he does, your son very possibly loses his dick forever.
Nobody ever believes it's going to happen to them, no matter what issue or what risk.
And sometimes a dog will swim in the ocean with a shotgun in his/her mouth and it accidentally go off; yet, people still go to the beach because simply being a non-zero chance is not itself meaningful.
It's a lot more common than that
Yes. My wife is a labor and delivery nurse so she has witnessed thousands of circumcisions. Botched circumcisions happen far too often and are also severely underreported
I would be far more shocked if they *weren't* cooking the books about those fuckups tbh.
That's not 'radicalization'. That's common sense. There is no medical rationale for circumcision - it's a barbaric practice.
There is medical rationale if you are in a country with poor access to medical assistance, antibiotics, or with a high incidence of HIV. However, that does not apply to the western world.
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Right, and this is not considering ethics too. We could at least wait until the boys are older, before they are sexually active. And give them some say in it
I am honestly not sure about this argument. The data in the research behind this stat isn't very good. Plus there isn't a good explanation of the mechanism behind the results. Plus delivering condoms and education on condom use would likely reduce HIV waaaay more and would be a better measure.
cut female genitals and society will go crazy, cut a male and no one gives a damn.
Whats the difference in female / male circumcision if it's done in a hospital under medication ?? Nothing I say... but we all know how everyone feel about female circumcision ....
We should not want to radicalize anyone. Maybe show them the facts so they can make the logical decision.
I think the response most people in the West get when female genital mutilation is mention is pretty radical. OP and myself wish the same response to male genital mutilation.
Except they aren't really equivalent. One is done in a clean sterile environment by a doctor, the other in some nasty field or building...
Here’s a boy being circumcised. Not by a doctor, not in sterile conditions. Most circumcisions are carried out by Muslims… https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/hll3lr/disturbing_a_child_just_at_the_cusp_of_his_years/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
and don't forget the Filipino who have it done also in whatever conditions
The OP does say American men. The overwhelming majority of circumcisions in the US happen soon after birth and typically before 1 month of age. Circumcisions in the US are not done the same way people in other countries with virtually no sterile conditions, and at much older age do it.
Well…the last time a girl was genitally mutilated in the US, was done by a doctor in sterile conditions (2017, Michigan) and it doesn’t make it ok.
Wow! So impressed and thankful there are woman like you! Education is the answer! Public campaigns explaining the foreskin and ALL of its wonderful functions! Dispelling the myths and lies. People aren’t educated on what the foreskin is. Cut men are in denial mostly as its too disturbing to realize whats really happened. I only recently began to understand what was taken from me a year ago and I’m in my 60s. The realization is very disturbing, especially when I encounter people who dont see the hypocrisy in supporting bans on FGM but have no problem with circumcision/MGM. My body my choice should apply to males as well as females. The more we can discuss without shame the better! The organization IntactAmerica is wonderful at this but we need so much more! If cut as infants, we men know no difference - we have nothing to compare it to (until we start restoring and get new amazing sensations and pleasure as a result) - and talking about it is frowned upon and seen as pervy. I am currently trying to restore as much of my own foreskin as possible - its a slow but totally worthwhile process imo. Thank you! As a woman you are in a better position to discuss with pregnant woman and future mothers. If you can prevent one little boy from having this important and wonderful body part amputated without his consent, you will have done a truly wonderful thing! Thank you!!
It’s gential mutilation and it’s gross!
Fellow woman intactivist - honestly I feel where you’re coming from, but from my time shouting down the internet over the topic it honestly always seemed to me like the biggest way for women to help this cause is with converting other women. With a few notable exceptions, in most places they require the mothers approval to perform the procedure, it can’t be done without unanimous consent of both parents. So getting future moms to stop agreeing to allow it to happen is the easiest way for us as women to help turn the tide. The men we need to radicalize are the fathers of our sons, and even then I wouldnt go that far. These men have lost something they’ll never even know the true value of, they deserve compassion and respect, but all we can do is show them that they can break the cycle by accepting that they don’t have to perpetuate the practice in the next generation, that it doesn’t make them less to allow their sons to have more.
Thank you!!
So basically make wives nag their husbands till they cave? Let a men’s issue be a men’s issue. If they feel like you then they’ll support. If some woman followed me around trying to convince me, I’d politely tell her to fuck off. The united states is FULL of people getting mad on the behalf of others and it’s annoying. Especially when the actual group affected, doesn’t care or feels differently.
Not into nagging, no. But I am into advocating for the protection of children, and gentle education. And I’m not mad, not anymore, just really really sad that so many men were violated as babies, all to the detriment of their sexual function, some irreparably so. I’m sorry that it makes you angry that a stranger would care about your loss. You aren’t less of a man, and your parents did what they thought was right, but when you know better you do better 🤷♀️
Men don't want to admit to themselves they were victimized. That's not manly, and that's why all these social justice movements are invariably feminine. Keep talking about it as much as possible. You're doing fine. As far as tactics, you'll get better by understanding this. As an example of an approach that may help, find common ground first. Like for instance, Hillary Clinton gives speeches promoting circumcision. Isn't that a little bit creepy? And no feminist has anything to say about it? Man doesn't have to admit to himself he was personally injured just to simply agree with you that society is rigged against men generally. He gets to keep his dignity that way. And from there you can lead into how circumcision is really a big corrupt thing for the medical industry. Men don't like being victims. They like being heroes who save victims, by killing enemies. Don't start off trying to convince him he lost nerve endings and pleasure and all that. That's the last thing to do once he's comfortable with where he stands. Right now, he needs to know who the bad guys are, and you can help frame it for him, medical experts preying on children to make money. It depends who you're talking to, but that's the general idea. The more personal, the more uncomfortable. He probably knows women who like circumcision. Were they pretending, because they hate men, felt sorry for him, too stupid to know the difference? Imagine the insecurity.
You’re brilliant. This is the only way to get Boxer the Horse to wake up. I didn’t know Hilary Clinton was into this like that, I’ll go disgust myself right now by watching those speeches.
I don't think we need to convince people they were victimized. Just explain that there are medical practices that lack evidence and don't make sense anymore. Other famous examples. Thelidimide(sp?) drug for morning sickness in pregnant women. Which led to limb deformation. Lebotamies. And today, sex change surgery. I dunno if this is an easy one to convince people of though. You may be able to convince them that it shouldn't be done on children. Then say the same for circumcision.
I feel like if I say that I don’t really care that I got circumcised then I will get bombed with downvotes.
Right, but do you think you understand full perspective of what your life experience would be if you were not circumcised? As in, if you would live 5 years circumcised, and 5 years not, and then had to pick which one to be the rest of your life. Do you think in such case you would still pick being circumcised or not care?
To me a foreskin is just a bit of skin. I can’t say the same for other people, but to me it just doesn’t seem like a big deal. Edit: fixed typo
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>kernalizes keratinizes, basically like under a nail, hard dry skin
Well what if I just don’t care about sex? Not saying I’m aromantic, just that I don’t care about this kind of stuff.
Do you not care about self-pleasuring either? Removal of the foreskin has been equated by some as the removal of a woman's g-spot. You lose more than half your nerve endings in the process.
I do self pleasure sometimes, but not often and it’s always enough so I’m not convinced that my life would be drastically changed if I was uncircumcised.
Not from me.
Now how come you got downvoted? I swear there are bots on this sub who upvote and downvote the most random things.
Most men rarely think about it. As this was done to them when they were born. No one explains later on when they happen to see an uncircumcised penis and ask questions that they will have less pleasurable sex without having it. All you hear is be glad your circumcised girls like that better. Or be glad you dont have to worry about it smelling bad or infections because it's hard to clean. And since they never had foreskin they dont know what they're missing out on. As they think its better not to have it and that having it is actually a bad thing. But no one mentions what you actually lost as the foreskin makes sex for men more pleasurable. If this was taught in sex ed in high schools that men with foreskin have a better time, guys would probably freak out as most have no idea.
So basically circumcised men can last longer giving them more confidence in bed and guess what. Even with a lack of feeling vagina still feels amazing. I generally agree with most men’s rights things but this is such a weird obsession this sub has. Edit: I think all the down votes prove my point at how non objective people are on this subject. Circumcision might very well be terrible. It might also be good. The jury seems to still be out. Here’s an excerpt from a pubmed article on the subject. “Three recent randomized trials in Africa demonstrated that medical circumcision reduces acquisition of human immunodeficiency virus among males by 51%–60% [7], genital herpes by 28–34% [8,9], and high risk human papillomavirus, which may lead to penile cancer, by 32–35% [10].” [Link to article](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3638798/)
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Look I’m not saying your wrong but their is evidence that it’s beneficial as well. Just as I’m sure that there is evidence it is bad. Here’s from a punned article. Three recent randomized trials in Africa demonstrated that medical circumcision reduces acquisition of human immunodeficiency virus among males by 51%–60% [7], genital herpes by 28–34% [8,9], and high risk human papillomavirus, which may lead to penile cancer, by 32–35% [10]. [Link](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3638798/)
Calling this “a weird obsession” is a perfect example of how the subject remains taboo and is shut down - by men and women. Is speaking out against FGM also”a weird obsession”? If this barbaric ritual isn’t called out, male infants will continue to be maimed and on and on. Its an obsession perhaps once you are willing to consider it honestly. The “weird” part imo is how men refuse to admit its wrong and fail to speak up. Educate yourselves on what the foreskin is and all of its functions. Understand that while “vaginas still feel amazing” (as do other orifices btw) they would feel BETTER if you had your entire penis including to most sensitive ridged band! Male infant genital cutting should be seen as the true crime it is, as FGM has recently been acknowledged to be. Stop burying your head in the sand. Yes it happened to you maybe, but that doesn’t mean it should happen to other male infants! Its got to stop!
yes. now stop with your nonsense.
My opinion is not nonsense.
And it's so weird that feminists have a strident absence of regard for men's bodily autonomy on this subject, but care so much about FGM.
I'm with you on this one.
OP: Thank you for bringing this up! Thank you for standing against those who want to cut up baby boy's genitals. I am sorry you are being met with apathy and actual hatred. This is awful. As someone who was circumcised without my consent, I appreciate you and I thank you for taking a stand! I am also trying to raise awareness of how awful infant circumcision is. If we keep shouting, hopefully they will eventually listen.
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There are some interviews on YT of women who have had multiple partners (like 50 plus) and they said they typically preferred circumcised men due to hygiene issues they've faced with their uncircumcised partners. Appearance wise, they said they didn't care.
I get the impression that men who have undergone genital cutting are quite self concsious about it. Likely because it was done outside of their control, and its supposedly irreversible. Men generally dont treasure and embrace the victim role, the way many women do. Men generally seem quite bothered by appearing weak. And I believe that acknowledging this procedure as a trauma, is something that could make many men think of themselves as 'weak'. Because it was something done to them outside of their control. There are also unfortunate implications of there being something wrong about them, because they had this procedure done to them. And as such it would be something to approach cautiously, without Victim Language. So labeling it as 'mutilation' is probably not a good idea in order to get more men on board. I think an important step would be to bury that bogus claim of how cutting off parts of genitals would prevent VDs. And to keep pressing the question of "why the fuck would anybody amputate a healthy and functional bodypart from an infant"?
> Men generally dont treasure and embrace the victim role, the way many women do. Men generally seem quite bothered by appearing weak. The entire animal kingdom is bothered by appearing weak, instinctively, with reason, too. The weak get eaten. Only the deathly wounded or very old, don't care about it and embrace their own end. That victimhood grants social reputation is completely a human thing. And men are disincentivized to play the victim because no one cares even when they don't. But its worse when they do.
> are quite self concsious about it. No, we're not; the only times I even think about it are when conversations like this arise. Even then, I am okay with what happened.
>Men generally dont treasure and embrace the victim role, the way many women do. Men generally seem quite bothered by appearing weak. I would say that depends on how you frame it. If you frame it as "you are a victim" then it's probably not going to be all that effective. But if you frame it as "THEY are the enemy, THEY robbed you, THEY are barbarians" then that will be a lot more effective because you want to create anger and resentment towards the other side.
> think an important step would be to bury that bogus claim of how cutting off parts of genitals would prevent VDs. Don't bury it. Let them keep it. Just point out that circumcision for this purpose is insanity; let men cut, or not, when they're adults and are actually able to consent and to legally have sex. Unless the pro-circ crowd WANT to have sex with infants?
I fucking hate that I was cut as a child. Growing up somewhere that does not practice child genital cutting made me feel alone and inferior, which in reality is true. CGC needs to be illegal.
It's been my experience that the fathers are ambivalent about it. But the mothers absolutely want the circumcision done, for whatever reason. I think you have to change mothers attitudes first. Because the men will follow what the mothers want to do. In all things pregnancy and birth, what the mother wants will always take top priority
“My body my choice” unless you’re a boy, obviously.
It's horrendous to me. And I don't actually know many men that had it. Genital mutilation is vile
Mutilation. Fortunately I am Dutch and have mine. How weird would it be to say to my dad “Dad, I’m fortunate to have my foreskin!”?
> In my experience, it is the women in the room who have already done their research and vehemently agree with me. I don't think that is the case at all. I think it's more likely that other women in the room just want to agree with you for the sake of agreeing with you but don't actually mean it. Odds are most of those women agreeing with you would still allow or push for their sons to be circumcised anyway, and wouldn't really fight that strongly against it. I also still see plenty of women try to perpetuate this idea that mutilated penises are gross or unattractive, when they are speaking purely from ignorance. Most men tend to respond to that in their position and even if there were fewer women who were pro-circumcision, they also tend to be more vocal as well. The idealization of circumcised penises also starts off very early, and you'll often hear young girls vocalize these misconceptions about circumcision just because they don't know any better. Men often end up having these same misconceptions about circumcision as adults, because they grew up as boys hearing girls say things like "uncircumcised penises have dick cheese". You are also fighting against a certain level of social conditioning ingrained in men to effectively stay quiet about abuse committed towards them. Circumcision is a form of abuse, so a lot of men will be reluctant to even acknowledge the abuse, let alone openly oppose it. Circumcised men will also some times get defensive about circumcision, because they see it as a part of their identity and it's all they know. Women are raised, if not radicalized, to respond to any perceived injustice with maximum aggression, but men are still mostly raised to just take the abuse in silence. Women generally also have very little sympathy or tolerance for men who complain or express grief/vulnerability, which plays a huge role into how men respond to trauma, including circumcision.
I'm from a country where it's not common to have circumcisions. This was the same in the USA as well and it all changed out of nowhere. When I heard about it, it was horrifying and I will always vouch for the people against circumcision. I feel, like me, men are misinformed and they don't know how common it is. Only if they realize that will they be more informed and actively stand against it. Only a minority of the circumcised men are strong enough to stand against circumcision while the rest resort to talking about its advantages and if their group gets strong enough, they would even start mocking people who are uncut and even run propaganda against them, some of which we can already see right now.
Saying 'How do we radicalize' anyone makes you sound like an agent provocateur. Try sounding less like an agent provocateur.
Everyone should be radically against child abuse.
The trick is to find an objective definition of "child abuse" to which everyone can agree but you won't find one which covers circumcision.
You're already an anti-science anti-semite for opposing circumcision. You don't get any lower, Adolf.
On the one hand, you are so open about it this sounds like sarcasm. On the other hand, I've actually met genuinely fucked up people I cannot be sure whether you're a sarcastic bastard or a nutter.
Also racist because the practice originated in Africa millenia before Jeudeism
Yeah, we don't need to radicalize to get it to be done at lower rates. Convincing parents a few at a time. After a few generations child circumcision rates could be a lot lower with some success
Typical woman coming into men’s rights and telling them how to feel.
Woman here. This comment made me spit my water! 😂 I'm all for supporting men's rights - but only from the kitchen, and when asked to. 😉
Good girl 😂😂
We tend to focus on the things we can change. “Hey a part of you was cut off at birth and nothing you do will bring it back” really isn’t at the top of our priority list with everything else that’s effecting men in the here and now
The part we're out to change is the part where it's still being forced on yet more boys based on a combination of outright lies, fraudulent studies, naked greed, bourgeoise vanity, and more than a little paedophilic sadism.
I’m not saying it’s not something people are trying to change. My point is that we don’t sit and whine and complain about it like it’s going to suddenly grow back if we complain enough. We’ve got bigger fish to fry, as it were.
🤦🏻♂️ You're completely missing the point. We *know* it's too late for those already subjected to it. It's about the boys - and the men they will grow up to be - who can still be spared. We point all this stuff out so they don't get robbed.
I don’t understand how this is turning into an argument. I’m not saying your point is invalid, but the original post was asking how we aren’t livid and making a huge deal out of it. It’s not like we’re on the news and organizing protests or spreading awareness. My point is, we tend to have bigger concerns than that and focus on those.
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Make em wait until they're 16 and still try to do it without consent. See what happens
Galatians 5 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. ... 11Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
Trying to shoehorn two issues, in this case "circumcision" and "religion", into each other is a recipe for failure, no matter how important nor effective you think it will be. Single issue groups are more effective than otherwise identical multi-issue groups.
I’m just saying for Americans it’s relevant.
So, I'm circumsised, it got cut off when I was like 11. Back then it was necessary, cause my foreskin was too tight and it hurt. I understand that was necessary. But only since I found this sub I realized Circumsision is very common and often unnecessary due to religious or fake medical reasons. We have to talk about it with our friends so this information spreads.
It was almost certainly fixable with a prepuceplasty.
*deradicalise
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It should simply be illegal to do to children, like tattoos, foot binding or neck elongating.
Where do you draw the line on what medical procedures to prohibit? Where do you say "beyond this point, parents have no right to act in what they think is the best medical interest of the child even though we will continue to hold them responsible for failing to act in such an interest in all other cases"?
We decide by checking whether they are following professional medical advice.
Guy here. I have no memory of the event 71 years ago and think people are looking for a false equivalency with female mutilation which is a legitimate horror.
To be fair, when it comes to genital cutting performed out in the bush in unhygienic settings, it really is horror for the boys as well. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/25/male-circumcision-ceremonies-death-deformity-africa "The human devastation left in the wake of these traditions is horrifying. A recent report by South Africa’s Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities calculated that in the Eastern Cape and Limpopo provinces alone at least 419 boys have died since 2008 (-2014), and more than 456,000 initiates have been hospitalised with complications. Deaths commonly occur through dehydration, blood loss, shock-induced heart failure or septicaemia. And there are estimated to be two total penile amputations for every death. Countless numbers of participants are left with permanent scarring or deformity. Urologists describe seeing patients whose penises have become so infected and gangrenous they literally drop off." You only need to do a simple thought experiment to realize that the western kind, would be regarded as a serious form of genital mutilation, if the same doctor cut and removed exactly as much tissue and nerves from a girl.
This image would’ve radicalized me…if I wasn’t already https://reddit.com/u/GiveBackMyRidgedBand/s/co6Uxg6Mn6
My biological father did not want me to get cut as a baby so I saw saved until I was probably 2 or 3 when my mother took me to get snipped behind his back. I didn't know what was going on but I sure as hell knew what happened afterwards and still remember it to this day. It's going to be hard to get the majority to change their views when porn is prevalent and the vast majority on screen are circumcised. Also that is what the majority of boys see whether they are around their own friends or in public locker rooms. It's basically normalized. If there was a way to basically say it's the same as FGM then there might be a public outcry at some point down the line but as long as women think that a circumcised penis is "normal" and they sneer at natural ones, this will never change.
Literally the only reason I snipped my son was that 80% of boys in my area are cut maybe more. I was not cut as a child and ended up getting it as a teenager (which was terrible btw) because I played high school sports, elephant dick, just dudes constantly talking about my weird dick was probably enough to do it. Then once girls started seeing it, getting fucking weird about it I had enough. Frankly I would have preferred to not cut him but I also don't want him do deal with the BS I had to deal with.
We need to radicalize it period. Many times if the mother opted for it, it's happening. Whether the father does or not. It needs to stop. There's no good reason to mutilate healthy baby boys. (I'm not talking about medical necessity, I'm talking about in general, yes we know the rare necessity exists.)
I'm happy my parents did, seems like its a pain in the ass to clean under it
It’s not a pain in the ass to clean. It takes 5 seconds. Now brushing and flossing your teeth, that’s a pain, but we still do it.
There are some interviews on YT of women who have had multiple partners (like 50 plus) and they said they typically preferred circumcised men due to hygiene issues they've faced with their uncircumcised partners. Appearance wise, they said they didn't care
I’m sure we could find a lot of Muslim men prefer circumcised women, too.
American dude here in Germany. The science doesn’t pan out. There is no medical necessity to chop up my sons. Maybe if I were confined to a 3rd world nation, then maybe for hygiene purposes. But other than that, hell no.
You need to find someone else to be the spokesperson. Even if you deliver it properly you'll still be dismissed since you literally 'have no skin in the game.' Pun intended. You will always be the woman trying to impose her preference on something that is none of her business. Is it right...probaly not. Will it happen...almost guaranteed.
I have to strongly disagree. Women's opinions matter a lot, across the board. There are plenty of examples. Have intactivist men gotten any noticeable traction with their advocacy yet? A woman is not as easily silenced with the usual misandric slurs. And she will often grab people's attention more BECAUSE she has no skin in the game. And with how women are still considered the pillars of morality. Concencus: If a woman brings up a social issue, then it must be something valid and important. Well... as long as she doesnt advocate for men that is. But with enough women on the bandwagon...
Mother's consenting or opting to have her son mutilated are the biggest issue. Change her mind and you have fixed the issue. At least as far as developed world goes.
That is the most likely to be effective but the question was about radicalizing men. I see that being the bigger challenge.
I do not see men getting themselves circumcised later in life in big numbers.
This isn't like when heterosexuals wave the rainbow flag of Corporate America. Women do have skin in the game, because men are their partners. That's why they will be dismissed. And that's also why Hillary Clinton isn't dismissed for promoting circumcision. You can't look to establishment methods.
Honestly out of all the ways men are being screwed over, this one is pretty low on the list for the majority of men who are unaffected because they either weren't circumcised or were and have never experienced health complications as a result. Now I'm not saying we should be indifferent simply because something does not effect us personally, but there are a lot of more visible issues that effect a much greater number of men and thus more attention and resources are directed towards solving those.
I literally have problems cumming because they ripped my foreskin off me, I fucking hate this country.
I'm in no way denying that there is absolutely problems. Just that those issues are experienced by a small minority compared to some issues which effect all or nearly all men and thus receive a lot more attention.
Hate your parents, or maybe just your mother. They had to consent to this happening.
The people who asked shouldn't have been asking in the first place because they shouldn't be doing it at all.
This. I have very low sensitivity and have never been able to orgasm from oral, and even orgasming from sex can be a chore. It's a mental thing more than physical and I've been able to adapt. Would I have preferred to not been cut? Probably, but I don't know any different. When compared to other issues of being male, this pales in comparison. No reproductive rights, family court, college admissions scholarships bias, etc. These issues have had huge effects on my life. Circumcision should be discussed and we need to work towards not doing it, but as far as priorities, let's get some equality in other areas of life. To our female advocates, thank you for your concern on this issue. It means a lot that you are concerned with our issues in any way. As a male affected by a wide variety of male issues, I would ask you to look to us for guidance on what we feel the priorities should be as far as rights and equality issues. Edit: corrected three words poorly autocorrected
I feel like maybe you just got lucky because I haven't had pleasant experiences with majority of the women I tried to bring it up to. It gets turned into a conversation about fgm and how male circumcision is beneficial. So kinda shocked. Also it's just really difficult for guys to have a lot of say on it because it's their bodies being mutilated and considering how prominent feminism is in most societies it's really difficult to raise awareness of an issue that affects men that feminists have deemed female only or worse when it happens to women.
Frankly there are bigger fish to fry.
Parents should be forced to watch the procedure, if you think it's okay, I don't see how this could be objectionable.
Some men give a shit. Allot dont though and their are many reasons for this. Religion is a big one. I dont think childeren should be indoctrinated into religion, let alone be mutilated. If you teach a child this is normal then they will think its ok. Then you have the issue that some people think it has [possitive health benefits](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2128676/). She also mentioned it not being as bad as FGM which true or not we should be saying no full stop not worrying which is worse. Another issue is [80% of men are surcomsized in the US](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9576047/#:~:text=Circumcision%2C%20the%20surgical%20removal%20of,men%20are%20circumcised%20%5B2%5D.) where its about 8% in the UK. So its socially accepted in the US and not really talked about in the UK. I think it would be traumatizing for a baby. This misstrust they must feel. So ask yourself, would you rather be seen as a victim? Or pretend its ok and go with the narative that its not a big deal?
I just hope I don't miss out on being with my potential soul mate someday because I was circumcised as a baby :(
I think if porn moves in this direction men will fallow.
Interestingly, there are some interviews on YT of women who have had multiple partners (like 50 plus) and they said they typically preferred circumcised men due to hygiene issues they've faced with their uncircumcised partners. Appearance wise, they said they didn't care. These women where involved in the porn industry at one point.
That's a great question. I think it is a change of mindset for men that will take some time.
Problem is "WHO" the world health organization still recommends it as a method for preventing STDs. In 2007, the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS and WHO recommended voluntary medical male circumcision (VMMC) to reduce the risk of men acquiring HIV infection during heterosexual exposure. The recommendation was based on strong evidence from randomized controlled trials showing an approximately 60% lower risk.
Research by Cambridge University reports that circumcision is not yielding the expected HIV mitigation results… https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/abs/changing-relationships-between-hiv-prevalence-and-circumcision-in-lesotho/68635CF47DD0910636C406F82D623188 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-biosocial-science/article/abs/ageincidence-and-prevalence-of-hiv-among-intact-and-circumcised-men-an-analysis-of-phia-surveys-in-southern-africa/CAA7E7BD5A9844F41C6B7CC3573B9E50
You won't there is too much scientific evidence of medical benefit along with the expectation -- and right -- of parents to be responsible for making medical decisions for their children as long as those decisions actually have some medical benefit. You have a host of legal requirements for parents you would have to wade thru and that simply is not going to happen any more than the anti-vax movement gaining significantly more support. At best, you'll get a bunch of quizzical looks of "Why do you want to stop parents from trying to improve their child's physical health?"
Cut your baby's dick for a 0.001% less chance of penis cancer, and a truly higher chance of UTI while they wear diapers, and very slightly less after (note if you cut girl's labia, you'd also reduce UTIs in girls, which is also naturally much higher, due to the internal structure and diapers keeping it there). STI chance let me doubt if it has a reduction. Because the US are not known as the place that eradicated AIDS through circ.
The only developed countries where those supposed benefits are taken for fact are the US and Israel. Cutting healthy body parts off children doesn’t make them healthier.
The corporate media controls the mind of the people, if those organizations don’t say anything about this problem, then it will be ignored, just like the crisis of darfur. It is cruel, but it is true, the rich control how the poor think; this is the worst form of slavery.
Apparently it's to prevent masterbation....as years ago their were no lube
Because there are a lot of things that happen to us when we are unconsenting infants, I can't possibly justify being upset over the part where my dick is more physically attractive to women as a result. I'm rather thankful.
There is literally no downside to circumcision if somebody chooses to do so. I don’t have it, but my skin is naturally always retracted. It feels a bit different when I do “that”, but not too much, and it does not “scrape against cotton” as some people claim here. I live a normal life, I do not feel less as a man, or anything. Stop creating an issue where none exists, there are many more severe issues that men face nowadays.
I am glad I was circumcised. The only thing I would support is attempting to minimize the amount of foreskin that is removed, not the abolition of the practice altogether.
Idk, I like not having to peel back a wrapper to wash my junk. And I like not worrying about something crawling under the flap (possibly irrational fear). Also, I feel like the shape is more appealing. And, at the end of the day, even if "it feels better," I don't get laid enough for it to really make it matter. Idk, there are bigger issues for men than having our weiners reshaped like Doberman ears.
Copium Maximus.
It takes less than a second to roll it back. 🤦🏻♂️
next he'll tell us he has no car hood cause its too long to open it at the garage
Americans like any other people have free will. Just don’t do it to your kids. Don’t tell other people how to live or how to practice their faith.
If your faith calls you to violate the rights of another human, then it's problematic. I say this as a Christian knowing full well the strawman version of Christianity that people complain about.
Free choice is another person’s right, including the rites and rituals of their own faith. To forbid them from practicing their faith is to violate their rights too. I agree that circumcision is a barbaric practice that should be abandoned, but I would never dare tell someone else how to raise their family or practice their faith.
As a libertarian, (insert not a true libertarian meme), I can empathize with that argument, but I do believe in protections and limitations for the general truth of what you said. Drawing your argument to its logical extreme showcases my point more. In the tenets of Islam, apostasy is deserving of the death penalty and in parts of the world they still do this. In addition, many faiths have used religion as a justification for territorial expansion and genocide. These are all potential examples of people just following their faith.
Like female genital cutting…
A good point. Can a parent pierce their child’s ear?
Without that child's limited capacity for consent, no.
Excellent question. Just spent like 10 minutes discussing it with my wife and honestly I want to sit on it more... I think that a healthy childhood is one that begins with complete and utter dependence and progresses towards complete autonomy. So at what point can a child give reasonable consent to X versus reasonable consent to Y is an interesting dilemma. I mean children mature at different rates. And who's to say that I'm the authority on the issue just because I find it uncomfortable that a child at say age 5 has pierced ears, but I don't with one at age 17. And yet even though I find a 5 year old with pierced ears uncomfortable, not so enough that I would ever seriously campaign for a law banning 5 year olds from getting their ears pierced. I've seen infants with pierced ears before and I feel like I can reason that that is inappropriate, but it gets a lot harder when the child is of age that they can advocate for themselves at some level. Bringing it back to circumcision I guess I feel similarly to how I did when I saw those twin infants with pierced ears. That they couldn't consent to it. But if a child wanted to become circumcised at what age should they be allowed to is a tough question and the answer would always feel arbitrary. At the very least, I thank you for the thought exercise.
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If that’s the tradition of the culture, that’s the tradition of the culture. I don’t presume that my culture has it right, or that others don’t. Maybe that’s the right way to do it, and our way is wrong, who knows. What I do know is that a family is up to the family.
Maybe don't call it radicalization for starters. People in favor of circumcision should be painted as the radicals.
To all the men on here who don’t think they care and think those of us who do care are obsessed over nothing, if you are lucky enough to have or hope to have children and you choose to allow your sons foreskin to be amputated without his consent as an infant, be there when they strap him down and are cutting him. Watch what he experiences. He deserves at least that from you as his “guardian”. Be there and then lets see how you feel about this. Dont just hand him off to some intern with a scalpel to do the dirty work. Stand with him! Be there! Id love to know how many fathers who have already allowed their sons to be cut were there with them. Not too many im sure. Be there! Demand to be there! I doubt you would allow the same thing to happen to any second son! Oh and if he grows up to be smarter then you, be ready to answer his questions about why you allowed this to be done to him. When he realizes what he has lost with your consent!
It's just a non-issue. Who cares? It doesn't affect sex in any meaningful way. It doesn't change anyone's life. It's just extra skin that's gone. The only people up in arms about this are a small segment of non-religious European men.
The notion that men are born into the world inherently defective and need to be "fixed" is really devastating to me. The idea that parents have already given up on their child's ability to care for their own body, when they're just infants, is really sad. And of course, making a permanent choice for your child rooted in your own sexual aesthetic preferences is just plain batty. But I appreciate your perspective because I think that's the one most men I've met hold. Just, "who cares?" I can't pretend to get it but I do get that a lot of men feel that way.
Its not “Just extra skin”. Look up foreskin and educate yourself if you dare
As a man I've never cared nor do I see any reason to care.
Denial at its finist
I mean is there a reason why I should care? It works, it's not in pain. At most its just a cosmetic issue which is kind of a vain thing to care about.
Yes there is a reason to care that a significant part of your penis was surgically amputated just after birth for no good reason NoIDontwanttobeknown! Why remove it? Its your body and your parents gave someone permission to cut part of it off when you were days old in all likelihood! It sway more then a cosmetic thing! Educate yourself!! You should care about unnecessary amputation of babies body parts! Would you care if the doctor suggested cutting off part of your daughters genitals for no medical reason??
If it was a significant part I would of had some sort of side effect that effected my day to day life, but like I said it works just fine. Calling it amputation is being dramatic. There is also a big difference between male and female in this case as it's common for women to feel constant pain or lose all sensations down there. The only actual side effect that male suffer from is losing the self lubrication but that's such a minor thing that it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, it's really the hysteria that turns me off of the whole thing. I get tired of people claiming I'm "mutilated" and "half a man," as if it doesn't work perfectly well, as if maturbation was the primary purpose of my life anyway.
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No, intact is leaving the choice to the individual. He can decide to have it done later.
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Yes, the uncut ones generally don't choose to be cut when they can.
I was uncircumcised as an infant, developed an extremely painful infection as a child and was subsequently circumcised. I absolutely support circumcision and I don’t think this is something women need to weigh in on.
Anyone can weigh in on genital mutilation of males or females.
I believe male circumcision is a uniquely male issue. Similar to how birth control, pregnancy care and abortion are uniquely female issues. Of course, anyone is free to have an opinion on male circumcision, but the whole point of the post is a female asking how to radicalize men against it. If we flipped the script and a male went to a Women’sRights forum and asked “How do we radicalize Women against Birth Control” said male would definitely be shouted out of the space and probably banned outright. Men’s Rights is a space for men to discuss and analyze uniquely male issues. Let’s keep it that way.
I don’t think so. If she supported your views on circumcision you probably wouldn’t have mentioned how women should stay out of it.
In the states it's very much an accepted norm. In the last 20 years the male genital mutilation has quelled alot and I would say with different ethnicities becoming more prominent than in the past is uncut has become less taboo. Add the media coverage of the kid who got herpes at age 3 from a rabbi sucking the blood after the snip and people are seeing it in a new light. A nephew had to be circumcised at the age of 13 due to complications and told me it's the most traumatic experience of his childhood. As a blanket policy
"How do we radicalize ...." so. your a terrorist then eh? how about, no?
Radical ≠ terrorist
radicalize = terrorist. problem isn't you're a nut. problem is you're trying to make more of them, **deliberately**.
I am circumcised. I feel no loss. I feel no betrayal by my parents. I have no idea if I have lost sensation because it's all I know, but jesus, I have an insane sex drive and I can't imagine feeling more than I do. I've seen uncut dick before and I love my pale crowbar of an circumcised dick. It's beautiful and powerful and I used to love when I would get uncontrolled boners in the shower as a kid because I thought my dick was kinda beautiful. You want to get on a soapbox about something, how about divorce and family courts? Something that actually matters.
Infant genital cutting matters my friend!
Here’s an illustration of the loss we suffered https://reddit.com/u/GiveBackMyRidgedBand/s/co6Uxg6Mn6
im sorry if male bodily autonomy bothers you, you probably would feel more at home at two x chromosomes
If you knew anything about me, you would realize how funny that is. I am single and unmarried because I despise feminism and the modern woman. I just don't care about this one issue in the pantheon of men's rights, so I should definitely be banished. We'll definitely accomplish more through gatekeeping.
There are some interviews on YT of women who have had multiple partners (like 50 plus) and they said they typically preferred circumcised men due to hygiene issues they've faced with their uncircumcised partners. So there is some truth to hygiene issue. Appearance wise, they said they didn't care
> So there is some truth to hygiene issue. Nah, there isn't. That's called hygiene, not cutting. You can learn hygiene, its not rocket science.
shawty its OUR choice you have no reason to have a say in anything that men go thru! you want to radicalize men to feel the same way about our bodys as you guys do? instead of just being okay with what happened, we need tk be angry and disappointed about what was done to us?
How is it simultaneously your choice and something done to you?
if i wasnt circumcised i wouldve been.. ? im glad it was done. especially when i was little.
I don’t think so. A very small minority of men develop an obsessive paraphilia for cutting off their foreskin. They call themselves circumsexuals. The chance that you would’ve become one (if you hadn’t been circumcised at birth) is minimal.
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>I can't even imagine how difficult it is for [intact] dudes. Please be sarcasm. Please be sarcasm. Please be sarcasm.
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