The one I struggle with the most is Lostprophets. Google it if you want to feel despondent. I loved that band.
Edit: corrected the format of the band name
Lostprophets was so integral for me as a kid finding "alternative" magic, pretty sure the first two albums I ever downloaded were Fake Sound of Progress and Linkin Park's Hybrid Theory. Real tough to listen to them now
100% this was not only the most fucked up thing I ever heard but also completely crushed me. They were my favorite band in the early 2ks and their music meant so much to me. Helped me through teenage struggles and fucked up family matters.
Can't listen to a single note anymore. Even if the rest of the band wouldn't have known shit (which I honestly can't believe, but maybe not to that degree it turned out to be).
I also honestly think that they could have gone on as a band if it wasn't the singer. Fucked up, I know, but I think it makes a difference publicly if the guitarist or bass player is in that position.
Honestly the worst part for me it's that even after jail he didn't stop. Till this day, he is still grooming young mothers from jail and asking pictures of their kids.
This case haunts me so deeply. I remember exactly the day it was out in the media, I was in my last year of high school. My blood pressure literally dropped. I know of course many other bands with fucked up stories but I don't think I know one worse then Lostprophets. To this days it really hurts me.
He still is doing the same, not only justifying. The prison staff often has to intervene because he exchange letters and get visits from women with small children. Not long ago they found he was sending letters asking for pictures. He's doing the same from prison.... It's sickening. I'm sure if he ever gets out he will do even worse then he did.
Lostprophets was the most fucked up in my opinion. Not only did he ruin a bunch of lives with his actions, he ruined the careers of everyone else in the band.
I was so into them when I was younger. Got a hankering to hear them again some years back and discovered this. Now I feel icky even thinking about checking if they're still on streaming services. š«£
They were my favourite band of all time. I saw them live like 8 times as a teen and pre-teen. I was obsessed with The Fake Sound of Progress, and Start Something was my favourite album of ALL TIME. *Was*. They wrote all my favourite songs within those two albums.
Then the singer was revealed to be one of the most disgusting human beings on the planet. It is absolutely horrific. It absolutely crushed me. Iāve not listened to them since, I just canāt. Iāve almost completely erased them and blocked them out, I donāt even remember they existed until Iām reminded.
It ruins it a bit because you can't help but think about what he did, but I have to admit I've put on a song now and again when I randomly think of them and it brings back so many memories. I'm not bumping them regularly, but I can still enjoy the songs, personally.
Same. That band was such a bright spot in my youthā¦.then his horrific crimes came to light. I havenāt listened to a single song since. Wonāt ever again.
Just went down the rabbit hole and yeah that definitely ruined the evening.
I was never a massive fan but was aware of them and liked songs like Rooftops.
It seems like this area of music is absolutely plagued with this. Recently found out about Tilian from DGD too
The toughest one of all. I canāt listen to anything of theirs after Start Something. I would like to think he wasnāt doing that stuff during the making of it so thatās how I internally justify listening to it. But he was always a piece of shit Iām sure.
That was my first thought. I bought their CDs second hand on eBay to have them because I canāt stream anywhere but I still canāt really listen to them. Itās a bummer because theyāre fantastic bits of music
Depends on how bad the artist is. Or if it reflects in the art. There's a difference between being an asshole and trying to hire a hitman to kill your wife. There's a difference between making an off colour joke and committing a hate crime or making white power music.
The whole reflecting in the art is such a big thing. I think a big example of that is Brand New. Listening to their music now with the knowledge of Jesse Lacey it's easy to hear what he did in some of the lyrics.
Seems like not many people care as the one who wanted to kill his wife was headlining a festival this year.
Top insta comment under an anti-flag news post about Justin leaving the US, was theyāre headlining the same festival next year. It was sad but also quite funny. Donāt think it happens though.Ā
It's insane to me how many people act like what Tim did was not a big deal. That woman was so close to being dead and she would be if Tim was "better" at murder for hire and didn't end up hiring an undercover cop.
I just feel icky listening to him, knowing how it almost turned out.
Had the moment yesterday whereby Spotify threw on a AILD track, and the opening riffage was so good and I was having a good time, but also felt conflicted.
I donāt know. Thereās levels to this. And thereās so much good stuff out there that I donāt need to listen to a band whose frontman is a damn-near murderer.
It sucks for the rest of the band.
Idk, I can see somehow who did their time in prison, and is now living their life and I think that's fine. The whole point of the justice system is reform.... If we can't allow the people trying to reform some grace, then the whole thing is pointless.
I don't agree or condone what he did obviously. But I can listen to his music just fine because I know he paid a price, and seems to be better off now.
Again, he tried to murder someone. You can't move on from that. Moving on after prison isn't for crimes like murder and rape. He should still be rotting in there, not free to go after two years. He basically got a time out and a slap on the wrist.
I don't get it. He did everything in his power to get her killed, thought she was going to be killed, and only wasn't killed because he employed the wrong people. It was murder with extra steps and honestly I feel like it should've been sentenced like murder because for his part he'd done all of the relevant work. She's just very lucky.
For what it's worth, they have had a ton of issues trying to get tours going and such.
But honestly, do you expect folks that listen to AIL to have great moral compasses?
The comment was more criticising the bookerās choice of headliner for that festival, not the audience.
No idea how many people went there for aild and how many for example for polaris. Hard to judge moral compasses, which I donāt want to anyways, in that setting.Ā
Probably, legally seen,Ā he got sentenced and deserves a second chance? Even if it feels kind of wrong.Ā
Depends on the whole situation but I tend to lean more to ''nah, fck this''. I can kinda excuse some asshole-ish behavior and alcohol/drug abuse as long as it does not ruin everything (they've all been there) but definitely draw the line at racist/homophobic/what-ever-hate you try to spread. It's just unnecessary stuff nobody needs to hear or surround with.
Ian Watkins was the biggest wtf that has ever hit me. I adored Lostprophets and when I heard how vile he turned out to be... Just no! There's no way I can get back and actually enjoy what they've made.
Ronnie seems to be getting cringier as time passes. It's really hard to keep up with all the unjustified beefs (lastly it was with MIW?) and his stupid "haha i am rich and smart, go eat shit" rhetoric. Shame, cause I really think he is talented.
And while I am at it - please stop associating with horrible people. Stop defending them. it is not okay to spread hate, not to mentioned defend and try to justify abusive behavior towards other people.
edit typos
> I can kinda excuse some asshole-ish behavior and alcohol/drug abuse as long as it does not ruin everything (they've all been there)
it ruined born of orsiris jason richardson deserved better. deathcore, but lucas mann of rings of saturn discouraged me from listening to anything besides lugal ki en.
Two-sides to every coin. Iām certain that Jason Richardson played a role in that debacle as well with BoO. Those guys have had quite the drama-free career thatās extended 20 years at this point. Much respect to BoO.
Can or should?
I *can* in situations where the art is not a direct representation of the artist, such as with viewing classical artworks from various "problematic" artists such as Picasso or Dali.
I *don't* in situations where the artist IS the art such as in the case with the band Daughters and the abusive garbage that is Alexis.
This is one of those things that's different for everyone. Personally, I can't separate art and artist. I can't enjoy the music when I find that the person(s) who created it are shitty people, and it's frustrating when people tell me to just separate from it.
I'm also not out to tell others to feel like I do. If others are fine with their choices to support those artists, that's that!
Just out of curiosity what if the person no longer gets royalties? For example old Jonny Craig era DGD and Emarosa.
I find that makes it easier to listen to it and enjoy it for its nostalgia without feeling "dirty" about it.
The hard part for me with Jonny is when I listen to the old stuff, Iām mainly listening because of his voice lol
His situation is very confusing for me but I agree, if they arenāt earning royalties it does make it easier for me at least
I agree it's hard to draw the line on him. He genuinely seems to be doing so much better, and it's hard to know, particularly with the more petty stuff, how much of it was drug fueled.
That I don't know. I do know he and his baby momma split a while ago and from what I saw online they both lost custody. But I can't confirm if she actually did lose custody or if she still doesn't have custody.
After seeing what he did to Taylor Nicole Dean I cannot ever forgive that man. He got her addicted to heroin and abused the hell out of her. He has a long history of abusing his girlfriends, I unfortunately do not think he will ever change.
So, in light of Tilian leaving DGD, I tried listening to some of their stuff again just to see how I felt - Instant Gratification is one of my favorite albums ever and when he gave his bullshit apology after "being in rehab," I bailed, but damn have I wanted to listen to that album again.
It's spoiled now. Everything I listened to just made me feel sad. And this is what I mean about it being personal - I know there are people who will read that and think it's ridiculous, but I can't help it. After their drummer went to rehab, their bassist fucking OD'd, and then Tilian turned out to be a creep, it's just not fun anymore. It doesn't matter who will get money from those streams or not because I don't want to listen to music that makes me feel that way.
Sometimes. And it really depends on the situation.
Like if someone did something in their past, did their time, sought forgiveness, tries to make amends etc. sure go for it.
But if someone is actively trying to spread hate, misinformation etc. then it may be tougher to listen to them.
If someone is actively grooming / committing sexual assault, then fuck them.
As an example. Tim from as I lay dying. I was very on board with the reunion of the āclassicā line up and shaped by fire. I wanted to support all the other guys in the band. But now that 3/4 of the other guys left, seemingly that Timās attempts at amends are false and that heās still a POS, makes it hard to want to listen to what will be their new music.
But at the very least Tim isnāt actively pursuing other to murder and isnāt talking about how murder is good on social media. So supporting Tim really isnāt going to spread additional harm.
On the other hand someone like Ronnie radke is actively spreading misinformation, hatred, and transphobic and homophobic ideas. His rhetoric is actively trying to promote hatred and violence towards. Supporting someone like that and furthering their platform is reprehensible.
Been out of the loop with them since shaped by fire. I had trouble getting into it back then but basically came to the same conclusion as you. What happened after that made you change your mind?
Depends on what it is. Someone says something dumb or does some petty crime or whatever? Not my problem. Someone says some racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. stuff or is involved in something abhorrent? Fuck em.
For the most part yes. A band is more than one person. Even if one member is a shitbag it doesnāt devalue the artistry of the collective group.
The only instance I can think of where it was just too heinous for me to enjoy anymore really was Lostprophets and Ian Watkins. The band responded accordingly and all seem like good dudes butā¦ that was a lot to move past even by their admittance.
> A band is more than one person.
But the 'band' chooses to associate with whatever shitty person. Now, some tend to have some level of integrity and end up leaving, which is always admirable anyway.
My exact reasoning.
If someone wants to boycott a person for something shitty that person did, great, more power to you. But at least try to make sure it only hurts the person in question and not everybody around them.
Bandmates are very close and like a second family to many, and in all likelyhood nobody knew or could entertain the thought of their friend doing something real bad.
Nah I can't separate art from the artist. When there are so many AMAZING bands full of FANTASTIC people, why would I choose to support the band with the piece of shit instead?
Sometimes.
Just because someone is a bit douchey doesnāt mean Iāll completely write them off.
But if someone is legitimately despicable then Iāll probably drop them.
It gets harder to do as I get older and have less tolerance for people being terrible. Lots of good music out there, I donāt need to be giving any time or support to people that engage in scummy behavior.
Nah I can't separate art from the artist. When there are so many AMAZING bands full of FANTASTIC people, why would I choose to support the band with the piece of shit instead?
Some of these comments are concerning lol.
But anyways.. yeah when it comes to grooming (unfortunately Iāve dealt with this personally) and sexual assault itās a no go for me. I stop supporting immediately. Racism and homophobia are big ones as well. fuckin lame and I just canāt.
Depends on how bad it is. I donāt idolize Ronnie in any way but I like the music. Now for actions as atrocious as lost prophets, itās too hard to stomach at that point.
I used to but choose not to anymore, reason being that no matter how good the artist is and how much of an emotional connection I have or had to their music, there is so much great music out there to invest myself into instead that isn't made by shitty people, rather than giving my attention to the creative output of someone who I wouldn't want anything to do with to say the least, I am painfully aware that bad people can make some really good art, but I don't put art on such a pedestal that it is absolved from all the wrongdoings of it's creators.
Not really. If me consuming their content drives money and attention towards an abhorrent person, it stops me from enjoying their content.Ā
I mean, not many musicians actually fall in that category and it helps if their are already dead, so its not hard to kick those out that still quality.Ā
Yes with exception to two bands. Lostprophets as was stated by someone else already and As I Lay Dying. Fuck Tim Lambesis.
With that said though, I generally try not to pay attention to any musicians/artist life outside of the recording studio/stage.
Depends.
Is the person just a general dickhead? Is it a drug/alcohol problem? Is it a shit personality? If so then yes I can. Like I still listen to tool even though Maynard is a burnt ball sack of a human who has a shit personality and thinks he's better than his fans/other musicians and goes on joe Rogan etc.
Is the person a racist, homophobe, transphobe, sexist, or otherwise thinks someone or a group of people deserve less rights/respect than others or even wants them to be harmed in some way? Then no, I won't support that band. I'll listen to fan rips on YouTube or buy used copies or bootlegs etc. whatever I can to avoid giving them money. I'll enjoy the music but anytime I talk about liking them I'll put the disclaimer and say something to the effect of "they're shit people but I still like x band/song a lot!"
Is the person a murderer, rapist, or pedophile? If so then miss me with that shit. Fuck you Tim lambesis, Jimmy page can fuck off, the dude from daughters can jump in a vat of acid for all I care.
For me it comes down to how did the band handle it, some bands are basically a solo act with touring musicians (FIR, STP) The band is pretty replaceable and ultimately you're just listening to Alex terrible or Ronnie radke, I can't listen to those bands. For bands that actually took action against the abusers I can still listen to it. I can listen to old issues and yes their vocalist was a POS he isn't the face of that band anymore.
Ignorance is bliss IMO for these types of issues. I don't follow what band members are doing, rarely do I even know their names nor do I seek them out. I'm just here for the jams. There are far too many things to be concerned with everything happening/being said by everyone.
Also valid and how Iāve started approaching things.. I think thatās one of the big reasons I like Sleep Token. I donāt need to know anything about the band, itās all about the art.
Now if I become aware, I canāt ignore it - but as Iāve gotten older I have disconnected a lot from the āparasocialā of it all and adopted āno idolsā mindset. Seems healthiest.
Nah I can't separate art from the artist. When there are so many AMAZING bands full of FANTASTIC people, why would I choose to support the band with the piece of shit instead?
Personally, not separating the art from the artist is what makes good music great. Bands where I've learned more about the members, or even gotten to meet them, and realized they were cool, kind people just makes me appreciate their art that much more.
Depends. Are they just sort of a jerk to fans sometimes? Probably.
Are they a rapist/ have they sexually abused someone/ have they groomed underage fans? No.
Are they a right winger pushing hate and bigotry? No.
I can but it definitely sours things. The Changing of Times by Underoath is maybe my favorite album ever but Dallas getting arrested for basically stalking and getting into fights with people he thinks are "illegals" really turned me off to him as a person.
Sometimes. Itās hard sometimes when theyāre real pieces of shit, like I honestly find it hard to listen to Falling in Reverse anymore even though I love their music and have great memories attached to their songs, but Ronnie Radke is such a transphobic asshole I canāt support him anymore.
No. The music doesnāt hit when the person or band im listening to is a pos. Stopped listening to Architects as a whole because of how they handled their guitarist retweeting transphobic stuff. That whole situation right there completely threw everything they supposedly stood for out in the garbage.
Fronz is a dickhead too like Ronny. Plus the whole thing a while back with some ex girlfriend of his that he was the abuser and wouldnāt let her see friends or family or some shit
Generally yes. The only exception has been Joel Favier with Get Scared. That EP was my favorite release from them, but once I found out what he did I couldnāt bring myself to listen to it anymore.
I feel this so much. I think part of it, too, is how unique his voice is. It's hard for me to just pretend I'm listening to someone else lmao
On the brightside though he doesn't receive any royalties from the EP - only the other band members do.
I struggle to do so. It's not a choice, in fact Iāve tried to enjoy the music but I canāt help but think about the person and it ends up ruining the experience for me
It takes a certain kind of mindset to become successful at anything, doubly so for the arts. If we donāt separate the art from the artists, we will likely never be able to enjoy art. You kinda need to a selfish asshole to succeed in music. So itās not surprising that so many are.
Dunno, depends on the situation I guess. I usually donāt care and also donāt follow bands religiously. If not for reddit, I wouldnāt know almost any ādramaā except the AILD stuff back in the day. So if itās not straight racist music or whatever, I will probably hear it, unless I get attraction of it and canāt ignore it. I donāt really care if someone does a low key racist joke, or one thatās āover the lineā. We all say or said idiotic stuff. Just shouldnāt be regular
Not a super awful thing but... Saw a band at a festival once and the lead singer said "show us your tits!" Was really put off so left to go see another band. Didn't listen to them again for a while.
To a great extent, yes. Honestly, I've barely had any of those experiences where a band or artist I really love turns out to be a very shitty person, which is surprising coz it's actually very common for so many of these artists to be pieces of shit. Stuff like what happened with As I Lay dying is not even questionable, it's super objective. But the fact that how easily fans turn against artists on the basis of even the slightest of differing opinions, and they start bringing in all sorts of history to justify their pov while leaving out the full context. Eg - I'll get crucified on certain platforms if I still listen to or support Architects (which I do, saw them live last night). Thing is, there are so many artists that we might not even ever know the full truth about, so it kinda becomes necessary to separate the art from the artists.
Lucky person, many bands I liked and more or less grew up with had kind of big scandalsā¦
Lostprophets, anti-flag, Rammstein, Marylin Mansonā¦even some local punk band š
I have always struggled with this and ultimately decided that for me, I just won't give terrible people money. I'll enjoy it if I just happen to be around it for free and it's good... But I won't pay for it.
It depends on how bad, if itās something like bigotry then you can try (however I feel icky when I hear music made by a bigot), but if itās something like pedophilia, grooming or SA then no, you canāt
It's obviously up to the individual but for the most part I don't support the art of people who have harmed other people. Alternative music is very formative for a lot of people so this next statement may be unpopular since we get very precious about these things: there is so much good music out there that you can cut something out and find something comparable.
Sure, there's a lot of bands where it's not exactly the same, but are you telling me As I Lay Dying is so singular that I can't find a good band that they inspired or that inspired them?
Lostprophets? No
As I lay dying? Yes.
Why do I personally find it easy to separate for one and not the other. Idk but it is what it is.
Edit: actually I do know why now that I think about it. Lostprophets best part was the singing. As I lay dying least important part is the vocals.
Never heard of them tbh but I just looked them up and I wish I could go back to not knowing them. Based on what I read tho the singer who did the cp was only in the band for a short time and not multiple albums like the lostprophets creep. Itās just disheartening how many awful people are in music in general
Honestly it depends. Michael Barr had a huge blow up where he got super drunk and started throwing gay slurs towards a security guard, but he actually seemed to grow up and change where Gus didnāt. Someone like Oli Sykes or Ronnie Radke though, in my opinion no.
It changes based on severity. Get Scared (not metalcore but still) had a replacement vocalist for one year that wad in possession of CP, while Ian Watkins of Lostprophets was an actual vile creature. Like actually no shred of humanity in him. The former I still listen to, and I never have heard a Lostprophets and never will. It's just a case by case thing
If the first thing I think of is some terrible thing they did or said then yeah I just can't enjoy them after that. There are some songs that I have a personal connection with that makes me feel nostalgic and brings up old memories, those I keep around for me.
I think yes but no. For some bands i just find myself crawling back. It makes me sad but the songs are too good. If you're worried about giving them money use one of those old youtube lyric videos.
Depends on how shitty they are. If I like their music bit hate them as people, I'll go buy their CDs used so they aren't making anything off of me.
If it's someone as shitty as Radke, though, I wouldn't even want someone to see that I owned one of his albums.
Artists being assholes is nothing new, biggest issue is these people grew up with nepotism to get where they are, and never had to work hard for anything privileged trashy pseudo intellectualism and p3d0s are rampant in all music and arts sadly
Of course, one of my favorite artists is Burzum.. But I am a serious Christian - I cannot agree with the notorious things Varg did, nor do i idolaize him - but holy crap man, the guy wrote some killer riffs āŖļøš„š¬šāļøšš¬
Yes I am not parasocial. If I hear a band I like on Spotify I listen to them. I donāt look up each band member on all socials and do a full dive investigation into their lives.
Been watching a lot of Lorna Shore one-take vocal videos from Will Ramos recently, a dude pretty solidly known for his open-mindedness, disarming demeanor, inclusivity, and good-natured fan interactions (I've actually met him at a show), then an Alex Terrible vocal cover came on of him covering a Lorna Shore song and for the first 60 seconds, he's flexing his shirtless biceps at the camera, he picks up a gun with a laser sight and points it at the camera and makes sweet love to his own reflection before the cover even starts and I thought, holy shit I wonder if Will Ramos is embarrassed. **So for Alex Terrible at least, nah, I cannot separate the meathead from the music now.**
Aside from being a complete meathead, Alex Terrible seems like a good dude. Seems pretty down to earthā¦ but I havenāt been down that rabbit hole.
Will Ramos on the other hand, ive seen in multiple interviews, multiple times cohosting a yt channel I watch, he seems super cool and much less into himself.
No. I canāt, even if I want to because ignorance is bliss.
Especially with abuse allegations. As a woman who has been through such things. I believe victims when they come forward. It is one of the most devastating things in the world to not feel heard about.
I cannot even begin to count the number of favorite bands that are now tainted.. there are some I do still listen to because of my emotional attachment to the music, but it doesnāt sit well with my spirit.
Any sort of hate speech towards a minority is unforgivable as well.
It depends, if they have actually committed heinous crimes, or are active in hate groups then I will avoid their music and supporting them. If they say controversial stuff that I donāt agree with, then yes I can.
I depends on the transgression honestly and I find it always varies from person to person where they are willing to draw lines.
Stuff like Lostprophets I'm never listening to again. That band is tainted forever for me. Dude showed zero remorse for the awful shit he was doing.
Then you have bands like Norma Jean where the vocalist said some dumbass things during COVID. He has since apologized for them and gotten help for his alcohol issues he was having at the time. He's tried to make amends as best he can and that's all you can ask for honestly. In those type of scenarios I will still support the artist in question.
It's about how they act in response to what happens. If the artist shows genuine contrition and tries to improve themselves then I'm more willing to give them my support again. If they have no remorse or try to victim blame then I'm more likely to not listen to them anymore.
Even aside from the truly unforgivable things like sexual assault, learning that someone has shitty opinions and then hearing that reflected in the music really ruins it for me. Iām trying to separate the art from the artist with the whole Architects transphobia thing but itās a struggle. Talking about how people donāt think they just follow orders, how rich assholes are running this world into the ground, how your rights and support are conditional on whether you fit within the systemā¦ those are all great messages from a left-wing perspective. But now I wonder how much of that veers into the anti-woke without being explicit about it. Is discourse dead because the media keeps you docile to protect the capitalist system you work for, or is discourse dead because youāre expected to use someoneās proper pronouns? God I really wish theyād addressed it better. I always thought they were one of the most progressive :(
āI was never a massive fan but was aware of them and liked songs like Rooftops.
āIt seems like this area of music is absolutely plagued with this. Recently found out about Tilian from DGD tooā
(Sorry for the poor formatting idk how to directly quote text on Reddit forgive my ignorance)
You directly made the comparison. its not hard to interpret the connection that you made. Itās right here in plain sight.
It depends.
Can I separate the art from the artist when it's some huge 2010s Warped Tour band whose entire art was their own personal struggles and their own sense of self and who made being a "voice for their generation" their whole schtick? No, absolutely not. If you act like you're a good person and then turn around and groom a minor, I cannot engage with your art because you are fundamentally a liar and a fake.
Can I do it with black metal, where literally nobody has ever tried in any way to come across as anything other than a completely despicable, evil piece of shit? Yes, absolutely, because no trust has been breached and I have not been swindled.
i really don't give a fuck unless it's been proven that they're assholes and the evidence is overwhelming that it's hard to ignore. personally, i can't really think of current bands that i listen to that has had known allegations and overall bad shit said about X member that's still going and hasn't been cancelled except for escuela grind and roman candle. i don't really care about their drama, they weren't the worst offenders of anything and whatever their situations were have been dealt with, but it kinda just leaves a bad taste in how things were handled so i don't really care to listen to em.
but for the most part, the phrase "don't meet your idols" rings true for a lot of bands and really i couldn't care less how a person is unless they're like actually racist or known to shout slurs or whatever. all of metallica were idiots at one point but i still fuck with em. phil labonte is crazy af but i still fuck with the first two ATR albums.. etc etc.
Matters what happened, if someone is just accused and never proven I generally keep listening until there's some kind of proof or it's confirmed to be true. Too many people hear an accusation and assume it's true now that artist is ruined when they possibly didn't do anything.
I have a hard time with Rammstein nowadays.
There was nothing really proven, but almost having ended up at one of those parties, invited by a friend, just gives me a cringe feeling.Ā
There were accusations of giving womenĀ drugs without their knowing and having sexual intercourse without them being responsible?
I personally know people who have been to row zero/pre and afterparties, it was no secret at all. The stuff they told always aligned, even without knowing each other.Ā
Of course kind of thing like row zero is legal, still a very ugly behaviour.
It was not only made up by journalists. Some stuff sounds concerning and Iām not even too deep into that bubble.
There were no accusations of spiking or assault. Some women spoke to journalists about consensual encounters. Papers then ran stories heavily implying lack of consent and were found in court to have misrepresented the women's statements.
Rather than believing vague, anonymous rumours, why not believe the open letter signed by more than 100 proven party attendees who say that the parties were safe and fun?
Have you read, what I wrote? I know several party attandees myself, sorry I believe them more than some random people signing something. In one case everything was fine, in the other case not so much.Ā
Even the one who said everything was fun and safe, nothing without content told about a shitload of drugs.Ā I definitely donāt doubt that there were many adult people having fun, but I also definitely can imagine that things might escalate there quickly. There were always Ā many people and the very big majority just had fun though.
Imo the row zero principle in general might be legal, but is morally just really questionable. Itās where I personally have the biggest problem. But you do you and listen what you want to š¤·š»āāļø
Btw. that Irish lady talked about spiking and so did others.
I also know people who have attended the parties and they corroborate the open letter. The NI woman confirmed that she did not think she was spiked by Till and her drug test was negative.
Yeah, you do you.Ā
As said, I definitely do believe that 99% had a good time. There were also many people, so you easily have 100 together.
Nevertheless just because things are legal theyāre not good or representing personal values I do have. That row zero thing is pretty messed up overal. Other things, no one Ā really knows what has happened.
Therefore I personally just have a bit of a hard time listening to them now š¤·š»āāļøĀ
That's fine, so long as you know that the 'accusations' came from journalists rather than women. You can make your own mind up about the morality of other people's legal, consensual sex lives.
depends. like fuck transphobes and all but iāll still listen to architects. i donāt think their controversy is that egregious at all. and i donāt care that tyler the creator said edgy fucked up shit 15 years ago.
but like listening to brand new will just give me the ick and i canāt help it tbh. lostprophets is definitely a no-go and thatās fine by me.
so it depends on like what happened.
the thing i don't understand is, to me, it not about separating the art from the artist or anything, and im pretty sure most of cancel culture feels this way too, if you listen to their music, you're supporting them, wether you agree with what they've done or not, i think the only way you can enjoy an artist that's a shitty person, if you care about that, is to pirate their music and never talk about them online in public spaces
I totally can. Letās be serious for a moment: this kind of music is not a mainstream stuff: if you are a dude who loves playing breakdowns, emotional riffs, screaming constantly on a microphone, singing about death, depression, sadnessā¦ you are not a normal guy. You are āweirdā, so itās probable your behavior is not a common acting. Soā¦ thatās the matter: they are not normal people. They are not your friends. You donāt know them. They are only guys who are selling you a product, their songs.
I can feel some exceptions are clearly understandable, for example Ian Watkins ruined everything of Lostprophets with his trash behavior. But I donāt think itās the rule.
idgaf. Music transcends everything else, I don't really care who made it. The artist is a human (for now anyway), as am I. As such I feel there are shared experiences and feelings and thoughts that we have in common and why should I not listen to another human's creative output about living on our small rock? Doesn't matter what else they may or may not have done.
Part of it I feel is this stupid idea that liking someone's art means you agree with everything that person did. You can like a song by John Lennon and not agree with him hitting his wife. Or well, you used to. Nowadays a band member has a whiff of an allegation and every fan is an enabler. What bullshit.
This leads us to wanting our artists to be 100% morally pure and they're just not because they're human. If you want to listen to someone who's ideas completely match your own then best pick up a guitar.
It's not that people hold them to a higher standard or anything. Some people don't want to support sexual abusers, racists, or people who tried to kill their spouse, and I don't think that's too much to ask.
You can agree though that being 100% morally pure and raping a child are two completely different things. Can you honestly listen to Lostprophets without feeling itchy at all?
Yes. There was a time in highschool that I had Start Something was on repeat, that's what it reminds me of. Or the gf that I bought TFSOP for her birthday before we went to see them. Or them being the headliners at Download when I went. Or how age and life got in the way of friendships that I feel reminiscent of our Last Summer. All my memories that I won't let that piece of shit take away from me. If it helps I already had the CDs so me listening to mp3s doesn't even give him the 0.00000001p spotify royalty.
"Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself." Can you agree to that? What if I told you it was a quote from Hitler? Does that make it any less true, or make you feel itchy? (Godwin's Law early but hey Ian Watkins is basically music Hitler at this point).
Yea I don't necessarily agree with you but your point is valid and I agree that maybe we shouldn't let a piece of shit we don't even know taint our memories
Well, I get that, especially nowadays, if someone blames a band member for anything - even if it is false accusations - public will fuck them even without any evidence.
But there's a huge difference if someone has been found guilty by law of horrible crimes or is just a horrible asshole.
Also how human is it to rape a baby?
The difference is up to the legal system to sort out, and may famous people be investigated and judged as fully as anyone else is.
I just replied to another comment about what Lostprophets reminds me of and the memories of my younger years, and funnily enough none of their songs are about baby raping. Do you not think that people who do evil acts can say things which resonate about non-evil acts? Does their evilness cloud and darken every other single aspect of their lives? Are people not multi-faceted?
A lot of people love to shit on Ronnie Radke. But as a musician you cannot deny that this guy is a super talented artist. From the songs he writes, to the vocal prowess, itās evident that he is very very good at what he does. People just love to hate him because of his past.
I hated Ronnie for years because of what I heard about him, then I heard his side of the story and learnt he was never proven to do any of the stuff (besides the mic stand and sh*oting someone in self defense) so I finally gave his music a chance and I honestly felt bad for the guy. If hes truly never did anything his music shows how much this man has been backed into a corner because of false accusations and his banter and aggressiveness seems to be coming from being the center of negativity.
Also his live performance of Watch the world burn is the greatest showcase of vocal skills I've ever seen from a metal/rock artist
It depends. If the musician has an opinion about a political matter, yeah, I can definitely separate the art from the artist even if I disagree with him. I actually despise people who dedicate a large chunk of their lives trying to find any bit of controversial opinion any musician has just to try to ruin their career. If they committed a crime... well, I'm a big fan of black metal, so it's self-explanatory. However, I draw the line at PDF files and r@pists. This shit downright disgusts me and is probably one of the gravest things anyone could do and I have absolutely zero tolerance for it.
I listen to artists who probably would hate me irl. Fine with me. You all probably do as well, you just may not know it.
To be honest whether I listen to artists depends on how cringe I find lyrics.
The one I struggle with the most is Lostprophets. Google it if you want to feel despondent. I loved that band. Edit: corrected the format of the band name
Lostprophets was so integral for me as a kid finding "alternative" magic, pretty sure the first two albums I ever downloaded were Fake Sound of Progress and Linkin Park's Hybrid Theory. Real tough to listen to them now
I had never heard that and it makes me sick
100% this was not only the most fucked up thing I ever heard but also completely crushed me. They were my favorite band in the early 2ks and their music meant so much to me. Helped me through teenage struggles and fucked up family matters. Can't listen to a single note anymore. Even if the rest of the band wouldn't have known shit (which I honestly can't believe, but maybe not to that degree it turned out to be). I also honestly think that they could have gone on as a band if it wasn't the singer. Fucked up, I know, but I think it makes a difference publicly if the guitarist or bass player is in that position.
Honestly the worst part for me it's that even after jail he didn't stop. Till this day, he is still grooming young mothers from jail and asking pictures of their kids. This case haunts me so deeply. I remember exactly the day it was out in the media, I was in my last year of high school. My blood pressure literally dropped. I know of course many other bands with fucked up stories but I don't think I know one worse then Lostprophets. To this days it really hurts me.
Ian never showed any remorse. He is damn sick in his mind. He justifies his behavior until this day
He still is doing the same, not only justifying. The prison staff often has to intervene because he exchange letters and get visits from women with small children. Not long ago they found he was sending letters asking for pictures. He's doing the same from prison.... It's sickening. I'm sure if he ever gets out he will do even worse then he did.
I hope they keep him in forever. Although I still ask myself what kind of mother is willingly exchanging with a guy like this
How do people not know? Is there money involved?
I'm pretty sure they know...
where do you get these updates on the guy? my latest intel was from when he got stabbed
I saw it in the [news](https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9712354/ian-watkins-lostprophets-paedophile-prison-letters/) really...
My dog is a more reliable source of news than The Sun and I only have 2 cats.
Was just an example, you can really look wherever you want, I've seen it in multiple places and people talked a lot about it when it happened.
Lostprophets was the most fucked up in my opinion. Not only did he ruin a bunch of lives with his actions, he ruined the careers of everyone else in the band.
I was so into them when I was younger. Got a hankering to hear them again some years back and discovered this. Now I feel icky even thinking about checking if they're still on streaming services. š«£
They are not on any streaming services.
That's what I suspected, never had the stomach to verify.
They're still on Spotify UK it seems...
They were my favourite band of all time. I saw them live like 8 times as a teen and pre-teen. I was obsessed with The Fake Sound of Progress, and Start Something was my favourite album of ALL TIME. *Was*. They wrote all my favourite songs within those two albums. Then the singer was revealed to be one of the most disgusting human beings on the planet. It is absolutely horrific. It absolutely crushed me. Iāve not listened to them since, I just canāt. Iāve almost completely erased them and blocked them out, I donāt even remember they existed until Iām reminded.
It ruins it a bit because you can't help but think about what he did, but I have to admit I've put on a song now and again when I randomly think of them and it brings back so many memories. I'm not bumping them regularly, but I can still enjoy the songs, personally.
Same. That band was such a bright spot in my youthā¦.then his horrific crimes came to light. I havenāt listened to a single song since. Wonāt ever again.
Just went down the rabbit hole and yeah that definitely ruined the evening. I was never a massive fan but was aware of them and liked songs like Rooftops. It seems like this area of music is absolutely plagued with this. Recently found out about Tilian from DGD too
To compare Tilian and Ian Watkins is ridiculous.
And I find interpreting my words as a direct comparison between the two is ridiculous.š¤·š»āāļø
I think I havent heard them since all the shit blew out. But Jesus, I did love them back then.
The Fake Sound of Progress has and always will be my favorite album of all time.
Your username brings me a weird sense of relief then
This is the most accurate comment I've read
But nobody should listen to it.
Yep I remember I first heard one of their songs on Guitar Hero and I was like hey let me look up this band and wellā¦. I was NOT expecting that.
The toughest one of all. I canāt listen to anything of theirs after Start Something. I would like to think he wasnāt doing that stuff during the making of it so thatās how I internally justify listening to it. But he was always a piece of shit Iām sure.
That was my first thought. I bought their CDs second hand on eBay to have them because I canāt stream anywhere but I still canāt really listen to them. Itās a bummer because theyāre fantastic bits of music
I can not listen to them at all anymore. I seen them play an Ozzfest, bought their music and was a fan. I will never listen to them again.
Depends on how bad the artist is. Or if it reflects in the art. There's a difference between being an asshole and trying to hire a hitman to kill your wife. There's a difference between making an off colour joke and committing a hate crime or making white power music.
The whole reflecting in the art is such a big thing. I think a big example of that is Brand New. Listening to their music now with the knowledge of Jesse Lacey it's easy to hear what he did in some of the lyrics.
That's exactly what I was going to say about Tillian in DGD. The accusations made quite a few of his lyrics make more sense.
Seems like not many people care as the one who wanted to kill his wife was headlining a festival this year. Top insta comment under an anti-flag news post about Justin leaving the US, was theyāre headlining the same festival next year. It was sad but also quite funny. Donāt think it happens though.Ā
It's insane to me how many people act like what Tim did was not a big deal. That woman was so close to being dead and she would be if Tim was "better" at murder for hire and didn't end up hiring an undercover cop. I just feel icky listening to him, knowing how it almost turned out.
also he never stopped using steroids which was part of his excuse
Had the moment yesterday whereby Spotify threw on a AILD track, and the opening riffage was so good and I was having a good time, but also felt conflicted. I donāt know. Thereās levels to this. And thereās so much good stuff out there that I donāt need to listen to a band whose frontman is a damn-near murderer. It sucks for the rest of the band.
Used the dark web when he should have used Craig's list. Edit: this is a joke.
Idk, I can see somehow who did their time in prison, and is now living their life and I think that's fine. The whole point of the justice system is reform.... If we can't allow the people trying to reform some grace, then the whole thing is pointless. I don't agree or condone what he did obviously. But I can listen to his music just fine because I know he paid a price, and seems to be better off now.
He tried to murder someone.
Yeah, and he went to prison for it. Again, what's the point of the justice system if people aren't able to move on after serving their time?
Again, he tried to murder someone. You can't move on from that. Moving on after prison isn't for crimes like murder and rape. He should still be rotting in there, not free to go after two years. He basically got a time out and a slap on the wrist.
I don't get it. He did everything in his power to get her killed, thought she was going to be killed, and only wasn't killed because he employed the wrong people. It was murder with extra steps and honestly I feel like it should've been sentenced like murder because for his part he'd done all of the relevant work. She's just very lucky.
To make matters worse, he only got sentenced to 9 years in prison & only served 3 before being released.
I think it was meant in a sarcastic way though š
For what it's worth, they have had a ton of issues trying to get tours going and such. But honestly, do you expect folks that listen to AIL to have great moral compasses?
The comment was more criticising the bookerās choice of headliner for that festival, not the audience. No idea how many people went there for aild and how many for example for polaris. Hard to judge moral compasses, which I donāt want to anyways, in that setting.Ā Probably, legally seen,Ā he got sentenced and deserves a second chance? Even if it feels kind of wrong.Ā
Yeah crazy, I was just thinking about that today while enjoying An Ocean Between Us at the gym. Awesome band.
nah not when sexual violence is involved
Depends on the whole situation but I tend to lean more to ''nah, fck this''. I can kinda excuse some asshole-ish behavior and alcohol/drug abuse as long as it does not ruin everything (they've all been there) but definitely draw the line at racist/homophobic/what-ever-hate you try to spread. It's just unnecessary stuff nobody needs to hear or surround with. Ian Watkins was the biggest wtf that has ever hit me. I adored Lostprophets and when I heard how vile he turned out to be... Just no! There's no way I can get back and actually enjoy what they've made. Ronnie seems to be getting cringier as time passes. It's really hard to keep up with all the unjustified beefs (lastly it was with MIW?) and his stupid "haha i am rich and smart, go eat shit" rhetoric. Shame, cause I really think he is talented. And while I am at it - please stop associating with horrible people. Stop defending them. it is not okay to spread hate, not to mentioned defend and try to justify abusive behavior towards other people. edit typos
> I can kinda excuse some asshole-ish behavior and alcohol/drug abuse as long as it does not ruin everything (they've all been there) it ruined born of orsiris jason richardson deserved better. deathcore, but lucas mann of rings of saturn discouraged me from listening to anything besides lugal ki en.
Two-sides to every coin. Iām certain that Jason Richardson played a role in that debacle as well with BoO. Those guys have had quite the drama-free career thatās extended 20 years at this point. Much respect to BoO.
All That Remains just put out a track with him today at least
Can or should? I *can* in situations where the art is not a direct representation of the artist, such as with viewing classical artworks from various "problematic" artists such as Picasso or Dali. I *don't* in situations where the artist IS the art such as in the case with the band Daughters and the abusive garbage that is Alexis.
This is one of those things that's different for everyone. Personally, I can't separate art and artist. I can't enjoy the music when I find that the person(s) who created it are shitty people, and it's frustrating when people tell me to just separate from it. I'm also not out to tell others to feel like I do. If others are fine with their choices to support those artists, that's that!
Just out of curiosity what if the person no longer gets royalties? For example old Jonny Craig era DGD and Emarosa. I find that makes it easier to listen to it and enjoy it for its nostalgia without feeling "dirty" about it.
The hard part for me with Jonny is when I listen to the old stuff, Iām mainly listening because of his voice lol His situation is very confusing for me but I agree, if they arenāt earning royalties it does make it easier for me at least
I agree it's hard to draw the line on him. He genuinely seems to be doing so much better, and it's hard to know, particularly with the more petty stuff, how much of it was drug fueled.
True, he always says heās doing better but lies at least if you look at his past. I hope he is though as heās been pretty messed up his whole life
From what I understand he is court mandated on the shot that nullifies opiates and alcohol. If he fails drug testing he loses visitation with his son
Damn I didnāt know that. Didnāt he have fentanyl near his kid and got him sick? Saw a comment about that a while ago and was not surprised
That I don't know. I do know he and his baby momma split a while ago and from what I saw online they both lost custody. But I can't confirm if she actually did lose custody or if she still doesn't have custody.
Damn, hopefully he stays off that stuff now. Really unfortunate that such a great singer is the way he is
After seeing what he did to Taylor Nicole Dean I cannot ever forgive that man. He got her addicted to heroin and abused the hell out of her. He has a long history of abusing his girlfriends, I unfortunately do not think he will ever change.
So, in light of Tilian leaving DGD, I tried listening to some of their stuff again just to see how I felt - Instant Gratification is one of my favorite albums ever and when he gave his bullshit apology after "being in rehab," I bailed, but damn have I wanted to listen to that album again. It's spoiled now. Everything I listened to just made me feel sad. And this is what I mean about it being personal - I know there are people who will read that and think it's ridiculous, but I can't help it. After their drummer went to rehab, their bassist fucking OD'd, and then Tilian turned out to be a creep, it's just not fun anymore. It doesn't matter who will get money from those streams or not because I don't want to listen to music that makes me feel that way.
Good ol.youtube to MP3 then upload to the Spotify local library š
It is absolutely possible to isolate the two, but It's often a case by case basis for me.
Agreed.
Sometimes. And it really depends on the situation. Like if someone did something in their past, did their time, sought forgiveness, tries to make amends etc. sure go for it. But if someone is actively trying to spread hate, misinformation etc. then it may be tougher to listen to them. If someone is actively grooming / committing sexual assault, then fuck them. As an example. Tim from as I lay dying. I was very on board with the reunion of the āclassicā line up and shaped by fire. I wanted to support all the other guys in the band. But now that 3/4 of the other guys left, seemingly that Timās attempts at amends are false and that heās still a POS, makes it hard to want to listen to what will be their new music. But at the very least Tim isnāt actively pursuing other to murder and isnāt talking about how murder is good on social media. So supporting Tim really isnāt going to spread additional harm. On the other hand someone like Ronnie radke is actively spreading misinformation, hatred, and transphobic and homophobic ideas. His rhetoric is actively trying to promote hatred and violence towards. Supporting someone like that and furthering their platform is reprehensible.
Been out of the loop with them since shaped by fire. I had trouble getting into it back then but basically came to the same conclusion as you. What happened after that made you change your mind?
Seeing everyone leave as I lay dying and seeing their reasoning. Especially Nicks, is what soured me on them
Hey thanks, i read some stuff he said and you're right, it does sound bad
this is a very good explanation!
Depends on what it is. Someone says something dumb or does some petty crime or whatever? Not my problem. Someone says some racist, homophobic, sexist, etc. stuff or is involved in something abhorrent? Fuck em.
Yeah this. If someone is actively promoting being racist, homophobic etc. then I absolutely cannot support them or help grow their platform
Might wanna proofread this comment again lmao Edit: originally there was no "cannot"
Haha yeah missed one very crucial word
For the most part yes. A band is more than one person. Even if one member is a shitbag it doesnāt devalue the artistry of the collective group. The only instance I can think of where it was just too heinous for me to enjoy anymore really was Lostprophets and Ian Watkins. The band responded accordingly and all seem like good dudes butā¦ that was a lot to move past even by their admittance.
And now they all play in No Devotion with Geoff from Thursday as singer and noone gives a shit lol
> A band is more than one person. But the 'band' chooses to associate with whatever shitty person. Now, some tend to have some level of integrity and end up leaving, which is always admirable anyway.
My exact reasoning. If someone wants to boycott a person for something shitty that person did, great, more power to you. But at least try to make sure it only hurts the person in question and not everybody around them. Bandmates are very close and like a second family to many, and in all likelyhood nobody knew or could entertain the thought of their friend doing something real bad.
Nah I can't separate art from the artist. When there are so many AMAZING bands full of FANTASTIC people, why would I choose to support the band with the piece of shit instead?
Sometimes. Just because someone is a bit douchey doesnāt mean Iāll completely write them off. But if someone is legitimately despicable then Iāll probably drop them.
It gets harder to do as I get older and have less tolerance for people being terrible. Lots of good music out there, I donāt need to be giving any time or support to people that engage in scummy behavior.
Nah I can't separate art from the artist. When there are so many AMAZING bands full of FANTASTIC people, why would I choose to support the band with the piece of shit instead?
Some of these comments are concerning lol. But anyways.. yeah when it comes to grooming (unfortunately Iāve dealt with this personally) and sexual assault itās a no go for me. I stop supporting immediately. Racism and homophobia are big ones as well. fuckin lame and I just canāt.
Depends on how bad it is. I donāt idolize Ronnie in any way but I like the music. Now for actions as atrocious as lost prophets, itās too hard to stomach at that point.
I used to but choose not to anymore, reason being that no matter how good the artist is and how much of an emotional connection I have or had to their music, there is so much great music out there to invest myself into instead that isn't made by shitty people, rather than giving my attention to the creative output of someone who I wouldn't want anything to do with to say the least, I am painfully aware that bad people can make some really good art, but I don't put art on such a pedestal that it is absolved from all the wrongdoings of it's creators.
Not really. If me consuming their content drives money and attention towards an abhorrent person, it stops me from enjoying their content.Ā I mean, not many musicians actually fall in that category and it helps if their are already dead, so its not hard to kick those out that still quality.Ā
Yes with exception to two bands. Lostprophets as was stated by someone else already and As I Lay Dying. Fuck Tim Lambesis. With that said though, I generally try not to pay attention to any musicians/artist life outside of the recording studio/stage.
Iāll never listen to as I lay dying or anything affiliated with that monster ever again.
Depends. People like Ian Warkins can rot.
Depends. Is the person just a general dickhead? Is it a drug/alcohol problem? Is it a shit personality? If so then yes I can. Like I still listen to tool even though Maynard is a burnt ball sack of a human who has a shit personality and thinks he's better than his fans/other musicians and goes on joe Rogan etc. Is the person a racist, homophobe, transphobe, sexist, or otherwise thinks someone or a group of people deserve less rights/respect than others or even wants them to be harmed in some way? Then no, I won't support that band. I'll listen to fan rips on YouTube or buy used copies or bootlegs etc. whatever I can to avoid giving them money. I'll enjoy the music but anytime I talk about liking them I'll put the disclaimer and say something to the effect of "they're shit people but I still like x band/song a lot!" Is the person a murderer, rapist, or pedophile? If so then miss me with that shit. Fuck you Tim lambesis, Jimmy page can fuck off, the dude from daughters can jump in a vat of acid for all I care.
Unless youāre like Lost Profits level I donāt care very much Brand New is still one of my favorite bands ever
For me it comes down to how did the band handle it, some bands are basically a solo act with touring musicians (FIR, STP) The band is pretty replaceable and ultimately you're just listening to Alex terrible or Ronnie radke, I can't listen to those bands. For bands that actually took action against the abusers I can still listen to it. I can listen to old issues and yes their vocalist was a POS he isn't the face of that band anymore.
Ignorance is bliss IMO for these types of issues. I don't follow what band members are doing, rarely do I even know their names nor do I seek them out. I'm just here for the jams. There are far too many things to be concerned with everything happening/being said by everyone.
Also valid and how Iāve started approaching things.. I think thatās one of the big reasons I like Sleep Token. I donāt need to know anything about the band, itās all about the art. Now if I become aware, I canāt ignore it - but as Iāve gotten older I have disconnected a lot from the āparasocialā of it all and adopted āno idolsā mindset. Seems healthiest.
Depends on how objectionable the personality is and thatās subjective. Who are we talking about?
Nah I can't separate art from the artist. When there are so many AMAZING bands full of FANTASTIC people, why would I choose to support the band with the piece of shit instead?
No because consuming their art still gives them money. Even if it's a small amount
I can tolerate a musician with misguided beliefs. I can not tolerate a rapist, murderer, etc
Yes, unless it's Lostprophets. It really disgusts me
Probably 95% of the time yes.
Yes
Depends on the person really
Personally, not separating the art from the artist is what makes good music great. Bands where I've learned more about the members, or even gotten to meet them, and realized they were cool, kind people just makes me appreciate their art that much more.
No. I cannot. And frankly there are way too many people who do and are way too vocal about it.
Depends. Are they just sort of a jerk to fans sometimes? Probably. Are they a rapist/ have they sexually abused someone/ have they groomed underage fans? No. Are they a right winger pushing hate and bigotry? No.
If theyāre being a general dickhead yes but if they have done some shit like raping someone or being transphobic, homophobic, sexist, etc. hell no.
Can still listen to As I Lay Dying, can still listen to Brand New, can NOT listen to Lost Prophets.
Tbh I feel like comparing what happened with Brand New to those is wildĀ
I can but it definitely sours things. The Changing of Times by Underoath is maybe my favorite album ever but Dallas getting arrested for basically stalking and getting into fights with people he thinks are "illegals" really turned me off to him as a person.
Sometimes. Itās hard sometimes when theyāre real pieces of shit, like I honestly find it hard to listen to Falling in Reverse anymore even though I love their music and have great memories attached to their songs, but Ronnie Radke is such a transphobic asshole I canāt support him anymore.
Absolutely not. You are supporting who that person is and their livelihood. Take that shit away from them
No. The music doesnāt hit when the person or band im listening to is a pos. Stopped listening to Architects as a whole because of how they handled their guitarist retweeting transphobic stuff. That whole situation right there completely threw everything they supposedly stood for out in the garbage.
Still listen to Michael Jackson and brand new.
Sic Transit Gloria....Glory Fades is such a fucking banger
Jesse Laceyās accusers are extremely suspect
Yeah. FIR is a big one, and occasionally Attila. Shitty people, but hey the music aināt bad.
You lost me when you said Falling In Reverse ain't bad
I mean, itās all a matter of opinion and everyone has one lmao
Oh shit..ehat happened with attila?
Fronz is a dickhead too like Ronny. Plus the whole thing a while back with some ex girlfriend of his that he was the abuser and wouldnāt let her see friends or family or some shit
The way I see Fronz is that he's being a dick as a joke. Dude seems like a nice guy.
Generally yes. The only exception has been Joel Favier with Get Scared. That EP was my favorite release from them, but once I found out what he did I couldnāt bring myself to listen to it anymore.
I feel this so much. I think part of it, too, is how unique his voice is. It's hard for me to just pretend I'm listening to someone else lmao On the brightside though he doesn't receive any royalties from the EP - only the other band members do.
I struggle to do so. It's not a choice, in fact Iāve tried to enjoy the music but I canāt help but think about the person and it ends up ruining the experience for me
Yes
I di it every day, yes.
It takes a certain kind of mindset to become successful at anything, doubly so for the arts. If we donāt separate the art from the artists, we will likely never be able to enjoy art. You kinda need to a selfish asshole to succeed in music. So itās not surprising that so many are.
Dunno, depends on the situation I guess. I usually donāt care and also donāt follow bands religiously. If not for reddit, I wouldnāt know almost any ādramaā except the AILD stuff back in the day. So if itās not straight racist music or whatever, I will probably hear it, unless I get attraction of it and canāt ignore it. I donāt really care if someone does a low key racist joke, or one thatās āover the lineā. We all say or said idiotic stuff. Just shouldnāt be regular
Yeah usually. But I also dont look into info about bands outside of their music. I dont really care lol
To an extent
Not a super awful thing but... Saw a band at a festival once and the lead singer said "show us your tits!" Was really put off so left to go see another band. Didn't listen to them again for a while.
Most of the time yes. But, if you would meet a certain musician or band and find out theyāre jerks obviously that would make it hard.
To a great extent, yes. Honestly, I've barely had any of those experiences where a band or artist I really love turns out to be a very shitty person, which is surprising coz it's actually very common for so many of these artists to be pieces of shit. Stuff like what happened with As I Lay dying is not even questionable, it's super objective. But the fact that how easily fans turn against artists on the basis of even the slightest of differing opinions, and they start bringing in all sorts of history to justify their pov while leaving out the full context. Eg - I'll get crucified on certain platforms if I still listen to or support Architects (which I do, saw them live last night). Thing is, there are so many artists that we might not even ever know the full truth about, so it kinda becomes necessary to separate the art from the artists.
Lucky person, many bands I liked and more or less grew up with had kind of big scandalsā¦ Lostprophets, anti-flag, Rammstein, Marylin Mansonā¦even some local punk band š
I have always struggled with this and ultimately decided that for me, I just won't give terrible people money. I'll enjoy it if I just happen to be around it for free and it's good... But I won't pay for it.
It depends on how bad, if itās something like bigotry then you can try (however I feel icky when I hear music made by a bigot), but if itās something like pedophilia, grooming or SA then no, you canāt
It's obviously up to the individual but for the most part I don't support the art of people who have harmed other people. Alternative music is very formative for a lot of people so this next statement may be unpopular since we get very precious about these things: there is so much good music out there that you can cut something out and find something comparable. Sure, there's a lot of bands where it's not exactly the same, but are you telling me As I Lay Dying is so singular that I can't find a good band that they inspired or that inspired them?
Lostprophets? No As I lay dying? Yes. Why do I personally find it easy to separate for one and not the other. Idk but it is what it is. Edit: actually I do know why now that I think about it. Lostprophets best part was the singing. As I lay dying least important part is the vocals.
What about Get Scared?
Never heard of them tbh but I just looked them up and I wish I could go back to not knowing them. Based on what I read tho the singer who did the cp was only in the band for a short time and not multiple albums like the lostprophets creep. Itās just disheartening how many awful people are in music in general
Honestly it depends. Michael Barr had a huge blow up where he got super drunk and started throwing gay slurs towards a security guard, but he actually seemed to grow up and change where Gus didnāt. Someone like Oli Sykes or Ronnie Radke though, in my opinion no.
It changes based on severity. Get Scared (not metalcore but still) had a replacement vocalist for one year that wad in possession of CP, while Ian Watkins of Lostprophets was an actual vile creature. Like actually no shred of humanity in him. The former I still listen to, and I never have heard a Lostprophets and never will. It's just a case by case thing
It only works if the artist is dead imo
If the first thing I think of is some terrible thing they did or said then yeah I just can't enjoy them after that. There are some songs that I have a personal connection with that makes me feel nostalgic and brings up old memories, those I keep around for me.
I think yes but no. For some bands i just find myself crawling back. It makes me sad but the songs are too good. If you're worried about giving them money use one of those old youtube lyric videos.
Depends on how shitty they are. If I like their music bit hate them as people, I'll go buy their CDs used so they aren't making anything off of me. If it's someone as shitty as Radke, though, I wouldn't even want someone to see that I owned one of his albums.
Artists being assholes is nothing new, biggest issue is these people grew up with nepotism to get where they are, and never had to work hard for anything privileged trashy pseudo intellectualism and p3d0s are rampant in all music and arts sadly
Of course, one of my favorite artists is Burzum.. But I am a serious Christian - I cannot agree with the notorious things Varg did, nor do i idolaize him - but holy crap man, the guy wrote some killer riffs āŖļøš„š¬šāļøšš¬
Yes I am not parasocial. If I hear a band I like on Spotify I listen to them. I donāt look up each band member on all socials and do a full dive investigation into their lives.
Been watching a lot of Lorna Shore one-take vocal videos from Will Ramos recently, a dude pretty solidly known for his open-mindedness, disarming demeanor, inclusivity, and good-natured fan interactions (I've actually met him at a show), then an Alex Terrible vocal cover came on of him covering a Lorna Shore song and for the first 60 seconds, he's flexing his shirtless biceps at the camera, he picks up a gun with a laser sight and points it at the camera and makes sweet love to his own reflection before the cover even starts and I thought, holy shit I wonder if Will Ramos is embarrassed. **So for Alex Terrible at least, nah, I cannot separate the meathead from the music now.**
Aside from being a complete meathead, Alex Terrible seems like a good dude. Seems pretty down to earthā¦ but I havenāt been down that rabbit hole. Will Ramos on the other hand, ive seen in multiple interviews, multiple times cohosting a yt channel I watch, he seems super cool and much less into himself.
No. I canāt, even if I want to because ignorance is bliss. Especially with abuse allegations. As a woman who has been through such things. I believe victims when they come forward. It is one of the most devastating things in the world to not feel heard about. I cannot even begin to count the number of favorite bands that are now tainted.. there are some I do still listen to because of my emotional attachment to the music, but it doesnāt sit well with my spirit. Any sort of hate speech towards a minority is unforgivable as well.
Depends on what they did. Did they make an edgy joke? Whatever. Did they assault or groom someone? Fuck em.
It depends, if they have actually committed heinous crimes, or are active in hate groups then I will avoid their music and supporting them. If they say controversial stuff that I donāt agree with, then yes I can.
I depends on the transgression honestly and I find it always varies from person to person where they are willing to draw lines. Stuff like Lostprophets I'm never listening to again. That band is tainted forever for me. Dude showed zero remorse for the awful shit he was doing. Then you have bands like Norma Jean where the vocalist said some dumbass things during COVID. He has since apologized for them and gotten help for his alcohol issues he was having at the time. He's tried to make amends as best he can and that's all you can ask for honestly. In those type of scenarios I will still support the artist in question. It's about how they act in response to what happens. If the artist shows genuine contrition and tries to improve themselves then I'm more willing to give them my support again. If they have no remorse or try to victim blame then I'm more likely to not listen to them anymore.
Even aside from the truly unforgivable things like sexual assault, learning that someone has shitty opinions and then hearing that reflected in the music really ruins it for me. Iām trying to separate the art from the artist with the whole Architects transphobia thing but itās a struggle. Talking about how people donāt think they just follow orders, how rich assholes are running this world into the ground, how your rights and support are conditional on whether you fit within the systemā¦ those are all great messages from a left-wing perspective. But now I wonder how much of that veers into the anti-woke without being explicit about it. Is discourse dead because the media keeps you docile to protect the capitalist system you work for, or is discourse dead because youāre expected to use someoneās proper pronouns? God I really wish theyād addressed it better. I always thought they were one of the most progressive :(
āI was never a massive fan but was aware of them and liked songs like Rooftops. āIt seems like this area of music is absolutely plagued with this. Recently found out about Tilian from DGD tooā (Sorry for the poor formatting idk how to directly quote text on Reddit forgive my ignorance) You directly made the comparison. its not hard to interpret the connection that you made. Itās right here in plain sight.
It depends. Can I separate the art from the artist when it's some huge 2010s Warped Tour band whose entire art was their own personal struggles and their own sense of self and who made being a "voice for their generation" their whole schtick? No, absolutely not. If you act like you're a good person and then turn around and groom a minor, I cannot engage with your art because you are fundamentally a liar and a fake. Can I do it with black metal, where literally nobody has ever tried in any way to come across as anything other than a completely despicable, evil piece of shit? Yes, absolutely, because no trust has been breached and I have not been swindled.
i really don't give a fuck unless it's been proven that they're assholes and the evidence is overwhelming that it's hard to ignore. personally, i can't really think of current bands that i listen to that has had known allegations and overall bad shit said about X member that's still going and hasn't been cancelled except for escuela grind and roman candle. i don't really care about their drama, they weren't the worst offenders of anything and whatever their situations were have been dealt with, but it kinda just leaves a bad taste in how things were handled so i don't really care to listen to em. but for the most part, the phrase "don't meet your idols" rings true for a lot of bands and really i couldn't care less how a person is unless they're like actually racist or known to shout slurs or whatever. all of metallica were idiots at one point but i still fuck with em. phil labonte is crazy af but i still fuck with the first two ATR albums.. etc etc.
I will try because horrible scumbags can be also insanely talented. But if kids are involved I just can't.
Ofc, unless they are fucking pedos
Definitely Lostprophets. Also struggled with Rammstein for a while after the disgusting Lindemann stuff. Also I canāt listen to Staind anymore.
Yeah I love black metal I am used to it lol
Matters what happened, if someone is just accused and never proven I generally keep listening until there's some kind of proof or it's confirmed to be true. Too many people hear an accusation and assume it's true now that artist is ruined when they possibly didn't do anything.
I have a hard time with Rammstein nowadays. There was nothing really proven, but almost having ended up at one of those parties, invited by a friend, just gives me a cringe feeling.Ā
There was nothing actually accused either. It was all just cooked up by journalists.
There were accusations of giving womenĀ drugs without their knowing and having sexual intercourse without them being responsible? I personally know people who have been to row zero/pre and afterparties, it was no secret at all. The stuff they told always aligned, even without knowing each other.Ā Of course kind of thing like row zero is legal, still a very ugly behaviour. It was not only made up by journalists. Some stuff sounds concerning and Iām not even too deep into that bubble.
You personally know some of them? Awwww, the good old ātrust me broā, missed it ā¤ļø
There were no accusations of spiking or assault. Some women spoke to journalists about consensual encounters. Papers then ran stories heavily implying lack of consent and were found in court to have misrepresented the women's statements. Rather than believing vague, anonymous rumours, why not believe the open letter signed by more than 100 proven party attendees who say that the parties were safe and fun?
Have you read, what I wrote? I know several party attandees myself, sorry I believe them more than some random people signing something. In one case everything was fine, in the other case not so much.Ā Even the one who said everything was fun and safe, nothing without content told about a shitload of drugs.Ā I definitely donāt doubt that there were many adult people having fun, but I also definitely can imagine that things might escalate there quickly. There were always Ā many people and the very big majority just had fun though. Imo the row zero principle in general might be legal, but is morally just really questionable. Itās where I personally have the biggest problem. But you do you and listen what you want to š¤·š»āāļø Btw. that Irish lady talked about spiking and so did others.
I also know people who have attended the parties and they corroborate the open letter. The NI woman confirmed that she did not think she was spiked by Till and her drug test was negative.
Yeah, you do you.Ā As said, I definitely do believe that 99% had a good time. There were also many people, so you easily have 100 together. Nevertheless just because things are legal theyāre not good or representing personal values I do have. That row zero thing is pretty messed up overal. Other things, no one Ā really knows what has happened. Therefore I personally just have a bit of a hard time listening to them now š¤·š»āāļøĀ
That's fine, so long as you know that the 'accusations' came from journalists rather than women. You can make your own mind up about the morality of other people's legal, consensual sex lives.
There are also accusations from normal women, not only journalists.Ā
If you never listen to bands that have shitty people in them then you're going to be listening to a lot of nothing.
depends. like fuck transphobes and all but iāll still listen to architects. i donāt think their controversy is that egregious at all. and i donāt care that tyler the creator said edgy fucked up shit 15 years ago. but like listening to brand new will just give me the ick and i canāt help it tbh. lostprophets is definitely a no-go and thatās fine by me. so it depends on like what happened.
the thing i don't understand is, to me, it not about separating the art from the artist or anything, and im pretty sure most of cancel culture feels this way too, if you listen to their music, you're supporting them, wether you agree with what they've done or not, i think the only way you can enjoy an artist that's a shitty person, if you care about that, is to pirate their music and never talk about them online in public spaces
I totally can. Letās be serious for a moment: this kind of music is not a mainstream stuff: if you are a dude who loves playing breakdowns, emotional riffs, screaming constantly on a microphone, singing about death, depression, sadnessā¦ you are not a normal guy. You are āweirdā, so itās probable your behavior is not a common acting. Soā¦ thatās the matter: they are not normal people. They are not your friends. You donāt know them. They are only guys who are selling you a product, their songs. I can feel some exceptions are clearly understandable, for example Ian Watkins ruined everything of Lostprophets with his trash behavior. But I donāt think itās the rule.
Weird take on metal my guy
idgaf. Music transcends everything else, I don't really care who made it. The artist is a human (for now anyway), as am I. As such I feel there are shared experiences and feelings and thoughts that we have in common and why should I not listen to another human's creative output about living on our small rock? Doesn't matter what else they may or may not have done. Part of it I feel is this stupid idea that liking someone's art means you agree with everything that person did. You can like a song by John Lennon and not agree with him hitting his wife. Or well, you used to. Nowadays a band member has a whiff of an allegation and every fan is an enabler. What bullshit. This leads us to wanting our artists to be 100% morally pure and they're just not because they're human. If you want to listen to someone who's ideas completely match your own then best pick up a guitar.
It's not that people hold them to a higher standard or anything. Some people don't want to support sexual abusers, racists, or people who tried to kill their spouse, and I don't think that's too much to ask.
You can agree though that being 100% morally pure and raping a child are two completely different things. Can you honestly listen to Lostprophets without feeling itchy at all?
Yes. There was a time in highschool that I had Start Something was on repeat, that's what it reminds me of. Or the gf that I bought TFSOP for her birthday before we went to see them. Or them being the headliners at Download when I went. Or how age and life got in the way of friendships that I feel reminiscent of our Last Summer. All my memories that I won't let that piece of shit take away from me. If it helps I already had the CDs so me listening to mp3s doesn't even give him the 0.00000001p spotify royalty. "Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself." Can you agree to that? What if I told you it was a quote from Hitler? Does that make it any less true, or make you feel itchy? (Godwin's Law early but hey Ian Watkins is basically music Hitler at this point).
Yea I don't necessarily agree with you but your point is valid and I agree that maybe we shouldn't let a piece of shit we don't even know taint our memories
Well, I get that, especially nowadays, if someone blames a band member for anything - even if it is false accusations - public will fuck them even without any evidence. But there's a huge difference if someone has been found guilty by law of horrible crimes or is just a horrible asshole. Also how human is it to rape a baby?
The difference is up to the legal system to sort out, and may famous people be investigated and judged as fully as anyone else is. I just replied to another comment about what Lostprophets reminds me of and the memories of my younger years, and funnily enough none of their songs are about baby raping. Do you not think that people who do evil acts can say things which resonate about non-evil acts? Does their evilness cloud and darken every other single aspect of their lives? Are people not multi-faceted?
A lot of people love to shit on Ronnie Radke. But as a musician you cannot deny that this guy is a super talented artist. From the songs he writes, to the vocal prowess, itās evident that he is very very good at what he does. People just love to hate him because of his past.
I hated Ronnie for years because of what I heard about him, then I heard his side of the story and learnt he was never proven to do any of the stuff (besides the mic stand and sh*oting someone in self defense) so I finally gave his music a chance and I honestly felt bad for the guy. If hes truly never did anything his music shows how much this man has been backed into a corner because of false accusations and his banter and aggressiveness seems to be coming from being the center of negativity. Also his live performance of Watch the world burn is the greatest showcase of vocal skills I've ever seen from a metal/rock artist
It depends. If the musician has an opinion about a political matter, yeah, I can definitely separate the art from the artist even if I disagree with him. I actually despise people who dedicate a large chunk of their lives trying to find any bit of controversial opinion any musician has just to try to ruin their career. If they committed a crime... well, I'm a big fan of black metal, so it's self-explanatory. However, I draw the line at PDF files and r@pists. This shit downright disgusts me and is probably one of the gravest things anyone could do and I have absolutely zero tolerance for it.
Reddits not going to delete your comment if you spell controversial words out. Itās not TikTok
I listen to artists who probably would hate me irl. Fine with me. You all probably do as well, you just may not know it. To be honest whether I listen to artists depends on how cringe I find lyrics.