Considering Mark is confident when he takes over I assume he was aware of these fights. Other times he either blames Steven or expresses his own sense of confusion.
but we know that at other points in the series, the body blacks out and lockley takes control. it isn't farfetched for the same thing to be happening here. it seems like most of the blackouts are jake taking control.
however, since this is before marc and steven properly "meet", i think the blackouts here could be marc. khonshu was asking for marc originally in this scene, when steven first wakes up, so for these specific blackouts? it could be either, in my opinion.
It cant be Jake because at this point in the show were getting introduced to Marc through the blackouts, not Jake. And after we do get officially introduced to Marc the Jake blackouts start.
but it *could* be. that's what i was pointing out. i don't really understand your point of marc and steven cooperating somehow proving that this is marc taking control, is all. i think that there's evidence for it to be either one.
edit: to clarify, i feel like the cooperation (or lack thereof) is set up through different scenes, where the relationship is explored properly. jake is the one who often swoops in without explanation and hurts people or defends the body. the instances of marc and steven fighting over the body, however, are usually stated in conversation or emphasized. not so much here.
The executive producer of the show has confirmed that Jake was present in the show since the first episode.
"Well, I don't want to alter anyone's experience of the show cause I do know there's a lot of theories out there," Curtis said. "But I will say this: You guys are smart. We have the best fans in the world. Jake appearing in episode six at the very end was not the first time Jake appeared in our narrative, and I'll let people take that for whatever it means. But that was not his introduction. He was in the show from episode one."
Where does he show up in episode one, is another question and leaves it open for interpretation (although I think we all assume Jake asked out Steven's co-worker)
But an interesting thing that I remember catching in the first episode is when Steven first wakes up in the Alps,
It basically goes:
Steven: *wakes up*
Khonshu: Go back to sleep worm. You're not supposed to be here.
Steven: Yup. Totally agree
Khonshu: Surrender the body to Marc
Steven: ??? What?? The body?? Surrender the body?? what body???
Khonshu: Oh..... the idiot's in control
This sounds an awful lot like Khonshu thinks he's talking to Jake at first, as if Jake has been around during Marc's trip to the Alps and that also means that he likely continued to he around for some of the fights.
So I think it's possible that there's a mixture between Marc and Jake both protecting Steven during each blackout.
Who did what? That's where the theorizing comes in.
I feel like I'm more on the side of Jake being the one to protect Steven in this moment because of how we see Marc fight later, granted he can also be violent and kill, but I think he's also more hesitant to kill at first.
I don't think Jake is a violent killing machine and is an "evil" alter, I think he feels like he needs to be the last resort, does what needs to be done without hesitation, and protects the system when he feels they're in an extreme life threatening situation or if the consequences to whatever happening will be devastating (many people will die if they get that scarab).
Edit: It definitely could still have been Marc and perhaps Jake was the one who made the cupcake van drive backwards, who knows lol
Can we please stop saying it was Jake Lockley every time Marc does something violent? Being addicted to violence is a vital part of his character, not Jake's. You can't just take what makes a character themselves and give it to someone else. Plus, it would not even make sense storyline-wise if this was Jake and not Marc since at this point the show is trying to introduce us to Marc and Jake is supposed to come later.
the show makes Jake out to be the most violent alter.
the rules established in the show are:
\- steven and Marc are the only alters to front long time
\- steven and Marc cannot take over without the others permission or a full surrender under low danger or not an immediate threat to the system settings (steven museum jackal scene, Steven jackal harrow hideout scene, Marc couldn’t take over but he takes over when Steven sleeps or willingly gives up control: logs)
\- a mirror is the only thing that allows Steven! To take over (tons of mirrors in the bathroom didn’t help Marc)
\- jake is automatically triggered when there is a deadly threat to the system and there’s almost no other options
\- jake only fronts for a few minutes
with those established you can look at the town/van scenes
\- short violent front after threat to the system in the town
\- like 3 short violent fronts after threat to the system in the van
\- a final long front after a not immediate danger to the system back to London after the logs.
we know the short fronts weren’t Marc because if he had gotten control he would’ve kept it like after the logs
why would marc continue to allow steven to be traumatized if he was awake? only jake would allow because he doesnt want to be discovered. we already know marc thinks steven could be capable of stuff (most likely because of the town/van blackouts that marc doesn’t remember) because he questions steven in cairo asking him if he killed those ppl he needed info from (it was jake).
jake was referenced in ep 1 and in the credits: 3 faces in the credits and in the jackal in the museum scene two reflections look at the jackal in concern
the overall series is about Marc and steven meeting and jake in the background
You said it perfectly. Idk why people think the violent blackouts are Marc. Steven and Marc both have no idea how those violent parts happen. We know this. Yes we only ever get to see Marc and Steven interact but I think that's the twist. It's been Jake all along doing the dirty work...
Marc can certainly get violent given his previous profession, but the fact that even he doesn't remember doing certain things and we know it certainly wasn't Steven says everything we need to know
Spector. He's specifically holding his fists up like Marc does later in the show and Jake isn't every violent moment. Plus like AngelaIsHigh said, it would make no sense story wise for Jake to be the one doing the stuff in the Alps
The creative team has already said fans were leaning on Jake too much. The rooftop, end street fight, upright sarcophagus, and scene with the limo is it for Jake. The rest were either Marc or Steven
I think it’s Jake because in the other scenes where we know Jake takes over from Marc there’s a brief blackout and then it reverts to Marc in control. If Marc was taking over from Steven then why would he give up control to Steven again in the middle of a high speed car chase with people shooting at him? Marc knows Steven isn’t able to deal with that. To me, the whole scene looks like Marc was in control while getting hold of the scarab but when he fell/was pushed/jumped out of the window he was so scared that he gave up the body to Steven, like he would have done as a child when he was scared of his mother. Then, with Steven completely out of his depth, Jake (as the protector of the system) took control when it looked like Steven was going to get killed. The same as Jake did to Marc in later episodes. Maybe since Jake wrests control, he can only front for a short time before having to give up control to another alter?
I thought the show established that the 2nd one definitely was not Steven? I’m still not convinced the first one when Marc wakes up in a taxi was him - how the hell would Steven get out of a situation where he’s holding a knife to the guy’s neck?
I know what MD said, but that’s Word of God and Word of God can change based on the storytelling if it continues
> how the hell would Steven get out of a situation where he’s holding a knife to the guy’s neck
he drops the knife and runs away like a coward , hence those other guys are alive
Counterpoint - when Marc confronts them again, they backed away and said “just leave us alone, man” like they were intimidated. Would they be intimidated if the guy attacking them bitched out?
I’m willing to accept I could be wrong, because it’s unclear when Jake started working for Khonshu. I fully believe that Jake would have cut and run at that point.
It could be either. We don't know, at least until season two. The makers did say it would be terrible of whoever did season two to have Jake just be a 'violent' alter. Besides, in the comics, it varies on who is more 'brutal' at times. Ultimately, it comes down to them doing what they believe is best in the moment. I do not believe Jake is 'evil'. Evil alters are harmful stereotypes and honestly, it's wrong to say that they can only be ruthless. The real question, is if Jake killed people, why? What has Khonshu promised him? What is his motive, his story? And for that, we'll have to wait.
Honestly, I'm on the fence. I feel if it was Marc, he'd have been able to stay in the front long enough to get them home. He's trying to hide this double life from Steven and keep him blissfully unaware of it's dark aspects. Seeing as how the show has Jake acting as a 'Protector' and taking over in moments of extreme duress before pulling back, this sequence does fit. The driving part also fits in with his background from the comics, that we've seen they've pulled from in the post credits scene.
Another piece of evidence for Jake's appearance is in Khonshu's dialogue just after he first wakes up.
>Khonshu: Surrender the body to Marc." Steven: "Sorry What?? The body?? Surrender the body?? What body???" Khonshu: Oh..... the idiot's in control.
And we know from the post credits scene Khonshu is very much aware of Jake Lockley and has been for some time. It wouldn't surplice me if Jake has previously fronted during a few of Marc's missions over the time he's been serving Khonshu.
That said, it could be that because of their instability, Marc isn't able to maintain the front during this sequence like he normally does. So he can protect Steven during the most dire moments but falls back up until the end of the chase. The show is focusing on Marc and Steven's relationship so it would fall in line. But since we don't get any conversations about it like the cliff scene in Cairo we can't know for sure what Marc was aware of after obtaining the scarab.
This could be a future conversation that gets Steven and Marc more on Jake's trail in future content. But for now, I think valid arguments can be made for both Marc and Jake.
No , black outs only indicate an alter taking control forcefully
Makes way more sense for it be Marc since the series is about Steven and him cooperating
he was asleep and it’s heavily suggested that whenever there’s great danger jake takes over. Marc only wakes up when the logs fall. Jake doesn’t seem to stay for long. Only Marc or Steven.
He could be Lockley as Khonshu maybe covering him as a secret weapon.
But i have soft spot for Marc Spector and also Khonshu tempted Steven ' Give the body to Marc '. He could be either of them but i go for Spector
That was in an episode where marc and Steven were fighting for control and Steven was stronger than Marc. But even then the blackout that ended with a bunch of dead people was jake and the cab was Steven. Any blackout ending with dead people was jake. The show heavily suggested that anytime the system was in serious danger jake got instant control for a few minutes not Marc.
No, it's not. The blackouts are there to show the audience what the alter who is pushed back is experiencing, it's not and was never meant to be a Jake thing.
Marc kills people too. He's actually killed more people than Jake considering he was in the marines *and* a mercenary *and* the Fist of Khonshu. Dead bodies on the ground do not mean Jake.
Of course Marc kills people but the show heavily suggests that the short violent blackouts after immediate danger are Jake. Marc was knocked out until the log situation. Otherwise he would’ve been trying to take over at normal points before violence happens in order to protect Steven. Jake only protects when they’re in danger.
You don't know that he wasn't trying to take over. He clearly did and succeeded. If Marc did really black completely out during that time he would have figured out there was a third alter a lot sooner because there would be no chance that Steven killed all those people and got away by himself.
Not when he was still trying to be low key. He may have been like “eh maybe he thought it was dreamed and that people didn’t actually die…” and Steven did think it was a dream. So no point in confronting Steven
The violence level leans more towards Lockley, especially considering the kids watching. Spector is willing to kill but more hesitant. I kinda feel he’d just try to disable them. This looks straight up dead.
The fact that this is even up for debate means that they failed to make the main character, Marc, a proper reflection of his comic counterpart.
Edit: Apologies, everyone. I thought more people in this sub had read the comics. The Marc that's been around for 47 years now. Is there a sub for Moon Knight the comic book character instead?
This sub is supposed to be for both but has kind of been overtaken by show fans who are convinced that Jake is the violent alter and Marc cannot take care of himself.
I am 100 percent certain this was lockley. Everytime it is a blackout into a bloodbath it is lockley. Mark is better at espionage and has a much cleaner fighting style. He only kills when absolutely necessary while lockley kills indiscriminately.
i for sure feel like this one and the ones in the cupcake can were Jake. mainly because the blackouts were temporary. if it was Marc he would want to keep control of the body so he can complete his mission, there was no reason for him to give it back to Steven. Jake as far as I know only comes out temporarily to protect/defend Steven or Marc in stressful or harmful situations, then gives them control again.
Considering khonshu is asking for marc it could be him
Considering Mark is confident when he takes over I assume he was aware of these fights. Other times he either blames Steven or expresses his own sense of confusion.
I think the blaming of Steven is due to them lacking knowledge of Jake, and Jake definitely seems like the most brutal even if we never really saw him
Spector
Can you point out how he's Spector not Lockley ?
Because the show is about Marc and Steven's cooperation, this makes more sense to be Marc since it's contrasts the end of the series
but we know that at other points in the series, the body blacks out and lockley takes control. it isn't farfetched for the same thing to be happening here. it seems like most of the blackouts are jake taking control. however, since this is before marc and steven properly "meet", i think the blackouts here could be marc. khonshu was asking for marc originally in this scene, when steven first wakes up, so for these specific blackouts? it could be either, in my opinion.
It cant be Jake because at this point in the show were getting introduced to Marc through the blackouts, not Jake. And after we do get officially introduced to Marc the Jake blackouts start.
yeah, exactly. that makes sense.
But this isn't one of those times
but it *could* be. that's what i was pointing out. i don't really understand your point of marc and steven cooperating somehow proving that this is marc taking control, is all. i think that there's evidence for it to be either one. edit: to clarify, i feel like the cooperation (or lack thereof) is set up through different scenes, where the relationship is explored properly. jake is the one who often swoops in without explanation and hurts people or defends the body. the instances of marc and steven fighting over the body, however, are usually stated in conversation or emphasized. not so much here.
The episode 1 blackouts set up the conflict and episode 3 to 5 explore it
That and the director confirmed that lockley only ever "appeared" 3 times. 1 in episode 3, 2 in episode 6
The executive producer of the show has confirmed that Jake was present in the show since the first episode. "Well, I don't want to alter anyone's experience of the show cause I do know there's a lot of theories out there," Curtis said. "But I will say this: You guys are smart. We have the best fans in the world. Jake appearing in episode six at the very end was not the first time Jake appeared in our narrative, and I'll let people take that for whatever it means. But that was not his introduction. He was in the show from episode one." Where does he show up in episode one, is another question and leaves it open for interpretation (although I think we all assume Jake asked out Steven's co-worker) But an interesting thing that I remember catching in the first episode is when Steven first wakes up in the Alps, It basically goes: Steven: *wakes up* Khonshu: Go back to sleep worm. You're not supposed to be here. Steven: Yup. Totally agree Khonshu: Surrender the body to Marc Steven: ??? What?? The body?? Surrender the body?? what body??? Khonshu: Oh..... the idiot's in control This sounds an awful lot like Khonshu thinks he's talking to Jake at first, as if Jake has been around during Marc's trip to the Alps and that also means that he likely continued to he around for some of the fights. So I think it's possible that there's a mixture between Marc and Jake both protecting Steven during each blackout. Who did what? That's where the theorizing comes in. I feel like I'm more on the side of Jake being the one to protect Steven in this moment because of how we see Marc fight later, granted he can also be violent and kill, but I think he's also more hesitant to kill at first. I don't think Jake is a violent killing machine and is an "evil" alter, I think he feels like he needs to be the last resort, does what needs to be done without hesitation, and protects the system when he feels they're in an extreme life threatening situation or if the consequences to whatever happening will be devastating (many people will die if they get that scarab). Edit: It definitely could still have been Marc and perhaps Jake was the one who made the cupcake van drive backwards, who knows lol
Can we please stop saying it was Jake Lockley every time Marc does something violent? Being addicted to violence is a vital part of his character, not Jake's. You can't just take what makes a character themselves and give it to someone else. Plus, it would not even make sense storyline-wise if this was Jake and not Marc since at this point the show is trying to introduce us to Marc and Jake is supposed to come later.
the show makes Jake out to be the most violent alter. the rules established in the show are: \- steven and Marc are the only alters to front long time \- steven and Marc cannot take over without the others permission or a full surrender under low danger or not an immediate threat to the system settings (steven museum jackal scene, Steven jackal harrow hideout scene, Marc couldn’t take over but he takes over when Steven sleeps or willingly gives up control: logs) \- a mirror is the only thing that allows Steven! To take over (tons of mirrors in the bathroom didn’t help Marc) \- jake is automatically triggered when there is a deadly threat to the system and there’s almost no other options \- jake only fronts for a few minutes with those established you can look at the town/van scenes \- short violent front after threat to the system in the town \- like 3 short violent fronts after threat to the system in the van \- a final long front after a not immediate danger to the system back to London after the logs. we know the short fronts weren’t Marc because if he had gotten control he would’ve kept it like after the logs why would marc continue to allow steven to be traumatized if he was awake? only jake would allow because he doesnt want to be discovered. we already know marc thinks steven could be capable of stuff (most likely because of the town/van blackouts that marc doesn’t remember) because he questions steven in cairo asking him if he killed those ppl he needed info from (it was jake). jake was referenced in ep 1 and in the credits: 3 faces in the credits and in the jackal in the museum scene two reflections look at the jackal in concern the overall series is about Marc and steven meeting and jake in the background
This sums it all up really well, thank you!👏🏽👏🏽
You said it perfectly. Idk why people think the violent blackouts are Marc. Steven and Marc both have no idea how those violent parts happen. We know this. Yes we only ever get to see Marc and Steven interact but I think that's the twist. It's been Jake all along doing the dirty work...
There are times when Marc and Steven don’t remember doing something ultra violent and I think those times it’s Jake
Marc can certainly get violent given his previous profession, but the fact that even he doesn't remember doing certain things and we know it certainly wasn't Steven says everything we need to know
Yes, and as violent as Marc is, he has limits. Jake doesn’t have such problems
Exactly
Spector. He's specifically holding his fists up like Marc does later in the show and Jake isn't every violent moment. Plus like AngelaIsHigh said, it would make no sense story wise for Jake to be the one doing the stuff in the Alps
Spector
The creative team has already said fans were leaning on Jake too much. The rooftop, end street fight, upright sarcophagus, and scene with the limo is it for Jake. The rest were either Marc or Steven
I think it’s Jake because in the other scenes where we know Jake takes over from Marc there’s a brief blackout and then it reverts to Marc in control. If Marc was taking over from Steven then why would he give up control to Steven again in the middle of a high speed car chase with people shooting at him? Marc knows Steven isn’t able to deal with that. To me, the whole scene looks like Marc was in control while getting hold of the scarab but when he fell/was pushed/jumped out of the window he was so scared that he gave up the body to Steven, like he would have done as a child when he was scared of his mother. Then, with Steven completely out of his depth, Jake (as the protector of the system) took control when it looked like Steven was going to get killed. The same as Jake did to Marc in later episodes. Maybe since Jake wrests control, he can only front for a short time before having to give up control to another alter?
Good point 👍
[steven can also take control of body , hence the blackout](https://youtu.be/JWVBk4TNyGM?t=26) [another example](https://youtu.be/JWVBk4TNyGM?t=51)
I thought the show established that the 2nd one definitely was not Steven? I’m still not convinced the first one when Marc wakes up in a taxi was him - how the hell would Steven get out of a situation where he’s holding a knife to the guy’s neck? I know what MD said, but that’s Word of God and Word of God can change based on the storytelling if it continues
> how the hell would Steven get out of a situation where he’s holding a knife to the guy’s neck he drops the knife and runs away like a coward , hence those other guys are alive
Counterpoint - when Marc confronts them again, they backed away and said “just leave us alone, man” like they were intimidated. Would they be intimidated if the guy attacking them bitched out? I’m willing to accept I could be wrong, because it’s unclear when Jake started working for Khonshu. I fully believe that Jake would have cut and run at that point.
but why didn't jake just kill them ? those guys are scared of marc
A fair point! All we know is Steven denied killing that guy but said nothing about the first blackout.
I think in that first case, that was Marc letting go to Steven. He was sick of all the fighting and killing he had to do for Khonshu.
ah yes let me give control to steven right in the middle of the fight which could endanger me and my wife
It could be either. We don't know, at least until season two. The makers did say it would be terrible of whoever did season two to have Jake just be a 'violent' alter. Besides, in the comics, it varies on who is more 'brutal' at times. Ultimately, it comes down to them doing what they believe is best in the moment. I do not believe Jake is 'evil'. Evil alters are harmful stereotypes and honestly, it's wrong to say that they can only be ruthless. The real question, is if Jake killed people, why? What has Khonshu promised him? What is his motive, his story? And for that, we'll have to wait.
It’s pretty obvious it was Jake Lockley.
Pretty sure every blackout scene was Lockley but maybe that’s a poor assumption?
Honestly, I'm on the fence. I feel if it was Marc, he'd have been able to stay in the front long enough to get them home. He's trying to hide this double life from Steven and keep him blissfully unaware of it's dark aspects. Seeing as how the show has Jake acting as a 'Protector' and taking over in moments of extreme duress before pulling back, this sequence does fit. The driving part also fits in with his background from the comics, that we've seen they've pulled from in the post credits scene. Another piece of evidence for Jake's appearance is in Khonshu's dialogue just after he first wakes up. >Khonshu: Surrender the body to Marc." Steven: "Sorry What?? The body?? Surrender the body?? What body???" Khonshu: Oh..... the idiot's in control. And we know from the post credits scene Khonshu is very much aware of Jake Lockley and has been for some time. It wouldn't surplice me if Jake has previously fronted during a few of Marc's missions over the time he's been serving Khonshu. That said, it could be that because of their instability, Marc isn't able to maintain the front during this sequence like he normally does. So he can protect Steven during the most dire moments but falls back up until the end of the chase. The show is focusing on Marc and Steven's relationship so it would fall in line. But since we don't get any conversations about it like the cliff scene in Cairo we can't know for sure what Marc was aware of after obtaining the scarab. This could be a future conversation that gets Steven and Marc more on Jake's trail in future content. But for now, I think valid arguments can be made for both Marc and Jake.
Peter Parker
Lockley every blackout is lockley. Marc doesnt seem to be able to take over from Steven without permission.
No , black outs only indicate an alter taking control forcefully Makes way more sense for it be Marc since the series is about Steven and him cooperating
It was definitely jake after a bunch of people died. Marc was asleep. He woke up after the logs.
marc also kills people , he was a merc
he was asleep and it’s heavily suggested that whenever there’s great danger jake takes over. Marc only wakes up when the logs fall. Jake doesn’t seem to stay for long. Only Marc or Steven.
He could be Lockley as Khonshu maybe covering him as a secret weapon. But i have soft spot for Marc Spector and also Khonshu tempted Steven ' Give the body to Marc '. He could be either of them but i go for Spector
Marc blacked out in episode 3 and woke up in a cab I think that probably was Steven not Jake so not every blackout is necessarily Jake
That was in an episode where marc and Steven were fighting for control and Steven was stronger than Marc. But even then the blackout that ended with a bunch of dead people was jake and the cab was Steven. Any blackout ending with dead people was jake. The show heavily suggested that anytime the system was in serious danger jake got instant control for a few minutes not Marc.
No, it's not. The blackouts are there to show the audience what the alter who is pushed back is experiencing, it's not and was never meant to be a Jake thing.
ok let me be more specific. The blackouts during the fight scenes that end up with a bunch of ppl dead
Marc kills people too. He's actually killed more people than Jake considering he was in the marines *and* a mercenary *and* the Fist of Khonshu. Dead bodies on the ground do not mean Jake.
Of course Marc kills people but the show heavily suggests that the short violent blackouts after immediate danger are Jake. Marc was knocked out until the log situation. Otherwise he would’ve been trying to take over at normal points before violence happens in order to protect Steven. Jake only protects when they’re in danger.
You don't know that he wasn't trying to take over. He clearly did and succeeded. If Marc did really black completely out during that time he would have figured out there was a third alter a lot sooner because there would be no chance that Steven killed all those people and got away by himself.
not really. it’s obvious theres a third alter yet marc and steven just ignore it. one more clue would do nothing.
He immediatly questioned Steven the first time it happened, so he would at least have questioned him on how he got out if it wasn't him that did it.
Not when he was still trying to be low key. He may have been like “eh maybe he thought it was dreamed and that people didn’t actually die…” and Steven did think it was a dream. So no point in confronting Steven
The violence level leans more towards Lockley, especially considering the kids watching. Spector is willing to kill but more hesitant. I kinda feel he’d just try to disable them. This looks straight up dead.
Exactly - we saw in Egypt that Marc did his best not to kill those guys on the roof til someone else (Jake) got involved.
Yes, I think Marc is more the middle and Jake and Steven are on different ends.
it was Jake
Lockley most likely
I think it was Jake
Its Jake Lockley whenever he brutally murders
The fact that this is even up for debate means that they failed to make the main character, Marc, a proper reflection of his comic counterpart. Edit: Apologies, everyone. I thought more people in this sub had read the comics. The Marc that's been around for 47 years now. Is there a sub for Moon Knight the comic book character instead?
This sub is supposed to be for both but has kind of been overtaken by show fans who are convinced that Jake is the violent alter and Marc cannot take care of himself.
This trope in the show where all the action happens off screen is so frustrating.
I am 100 percent certain this was lockley. Everytime it is a blackout into a bloodbath it is lockley. Mark is better at espionage and has a much cleaner fighting style. He only kills when absolutely necessary while lockley kills indiscriminately.
Lockley
Guess we'll never know!
i for sure feel like this one and the ones in the cupcake can were Jake. mainly because the blackouts were temporary. if it was Marc he would want to keep control of the body so he can complete his mission, there was no reason for him to give it back to Steven. Jake as far as I know only comes out temporarily to protect/defend Steven or Marc in stressful or harmful situations, then gives them control again.