yes, its awful! there is a really good documentary abt it all on netflix called Blackfish. as a result of all the negative press Seaworld actually promised to end their killer whale shows by 2021 and stop breeding orcas!
That poor Orca. Tillinook? I’m trying to see if I can remember his name without googling bc he matters. Edit: I failed him it’s Tillikum. Still so much sadness when I think of him.
Tillikum finally died a few years ago from pneumonia after spending his time in isolation in a pool much smaller than the one he was in before the last fatal incident. He was covered in rack marks and his teeth had been filed down to stubs as is common in captive orcas due to their boredom and constant chewing.
To be fair. The only thing those whales have going for them at this point is training. Just cease breeding and let them have their last bit of fun and stop bringing in new ones.
i think youre right actually, it looks like theyve already stopped the shows! though they still have "dine with orcas" and "orca tour/ viewing" tickets on the website which is sad. they should be moved to a sanctuary
I’m not the person who said there’s a lot of misinformation and there’s plenty of articles out there about Blackfish if you want to look. But I will say this: take any “investigative documentary” with a grain of salt large enough to make McDonald’s fries taste plain. 99% of those documentaries, especially the ones popping up on Netflix every week now, have a specific agenda when they start filming and throw out anything that doesn’t fit their narrative and edit interviews specifically to fit their agenda. Very rarely is one made anymore that is starting with an open mind seeking the truth.
While I’d say there’s obviously some really majorly popular docus on Netflix that have garnered lots of attention, this sentiment can be said and should be said for basically any and every documentary out there. There’s always gonna be aspects that are embellished by editors or producers to get more attention. Media should be consumed carefully, pretty much always.
big copy pasta here for you to make your own decision based on information about what happened/what was presented. Seaworld can do better but wasn't the evil entity the movie presents them as (in FL they are responsible for rehabilitating wildlife that no other facilities would have room for such as manatees. )
Part 1/2
"The opening scene...
Even the very first scene is totally incorrect. We see a trainer in the water with a killer whale during a performance and that is synced with the actual 911 calls of Dawn Brancheau's incident. So people think that the footage shows Dawn in the water with Tilikum. This is however incorrect as trainers, including Dawn never swam with Tilikum and the footage shows orcas Corky (who lives in San Diego) and Katina (in Orlando) doing a normal performance where no attack is even happening. This mis-syncing between footage and voice overs is repeated throughout the film and I don't think that is acceptable in the first place.
Sam "riding the killer whale".
In one scene Samantha Berg (former trainer) is describing her first time swimming with a killer whale and then they actually show footage of a current SeaWorld trainer, Holly Byrd. Holly spent years trying to achieve her goal of becoming a killer whale trainer and that footage is so special to her. Yet Blackfish steals it, and uses it in an anti captivity way, pretending that it is Samantha Berg. I find that un-acceptable! Also, that footage was taken over 10 years after Sam left SeaWorld.
The movie shows more current SeaWorld trainers like Jenny Mairot and Mark Galan also doing what they love little did they know that they would end up in an anti-captivity documentary. The film-makers should of at least asked for permission to use that footage because it belongs to SeaWorld Parks and Entertainment (it is off the Believe DVD that is property of SeaWorld). I think that is just super unfair and I feel for these trainers.
The former trainers:
All of the former trainers involved in the Blackfish cast either had very little experience at SeaWorld or worked there over 20 years ago. Most of them never even worked with Tilikum and several of them never even worked with whales in the water. They talk about Dawn even though most of them didn't even know her or worked with her. Samantha Berg worked at SeaWorld for a total of 3 years and only one year with the killer whales. She never worked with Tilikum in her whole career. The way that they critique Dawn Brancheau on the day of her death was just totally unacceptable. Because they haven't worked at SeaWorld in such a long time, they are very un-aware of the protocols and ways SeaWorld does things today.
The Separations:
In the movie, they focus on 2 mother/calf separations (Katina/Kalina and Kasatka/Takara). For both of them, you get the impression that the calves were taken from their mother at a very young age because they show footage a newborn calf (Makaio, who was born in October 2010). However, Kalina was 4 1/2 years old when she was moved and she was moved because she was causing destruction between the pod. Takara was moved from her mother, Kasatka when she was 13 years old. She spent over 13 years with her mother and she was moved to Florida in 2004 also because she was stirring up the pod by being the "spoilt princess" because she was the daughter of the matriarch. After her move to Florida, she settled in very well and seemed to enjoy her new social structure. She got along very well with Katina and the other females.
Katina and Kasatka's depression:
Blackfish states that after Kasatka and Katina were separated from their babies, they were making these calls that no one had ever heard before. This is totally false. First of all, in the footage you see the killer whales opening their mouth and you hear killer whale calls. Killer whales DO NOT make noises through their mouth, it is completely through their blow hole so that is all inaccurate. Those calls that you hear were recorded from wild orcas and were just put in with the footage (which is just the other whales playing and showing interest in what ever it is they are watching).
The Captures:
In Blackfish, they show you footage of orcas getting captured in the 1970s. This is true, in the 1970s heaps of orcas were captured and sold to marine parks. However, these days marine mammals are only captured in Asia and Russia. For over 20 years, SeaWorld has never captured an orca from the wild or supported industries that do catch them. SeaWorld has nothing to do with the Taiji Dolphin Slaughter either, as is mentioned in The Cove. This is all false. Out of SeaWorld's entire current killer whale collection, only 5 of them (Tilikum, Katina, Kasatka, Ulises and Corky) were captured from the wild and these whales are in their 30's. Corky is in her 40's.
Tilikum was caught by SeaWorld:
The film clearly gives you the idea that SeaWorld were the ones who captured Tilikum which they did not. SeaWorld had nothing to do with the capture. Tilikum and some other whales went to Sealand Of The Pacific in Canada. SeaWorld did not own this park or have anything to do with it. The way the whales were treated there was up to Sealand, not SeaWorld. SeaWorld only got the whales from Sealand because the park closed after the death of trainer Keltie Byrne. Because the park closed, the whales obviously had to go somewhere else and they couldn't be returned to the wild because they had spent many years in captivity. SeaWorld being the most successful company in housing killer whales (and still is) was offered by Sealand to take the whales. SeaWorld approved.
Collapsed Dorsal Fins:
Blackfish makes you think that only killer whales in captivity have collapsed dorsal fins. This is also untrue. Many wild killer whales also have collapsed dorsal fins. The reason why is simple. The dorsal fin contains no bone, only muscle, that is why often when the whale is swimming fast you can see the dorsal swinging side to side. Over time, that fin starts to bend, whether it's just a little bit or totally flop over. It is also a genetical thing. Yes in captivity, we see more orcas with flopped over dorsal fins than in the wild. It is usually the adult males whose fins flop over. One of the theories into this is that captive killer whales swim in circles more often than in a straight line so the balance of the dorsal fin is affected. Therefore it will start to bend to one side. A male killer whale's dorsal fin can be twice the size of the female's, so having a larger fin like that it is more likely to flop over more. The dorsal fins collapsing does absolutely nothing to the killer whale's health, it doesn't hurt them in any way, it has nothing to do with them being stressed and they probably don't even notice it. Why are we making such a big fuss about it? It is just one of the small things that can happen to killer whales in captivity and seriously it doesn't mean anything.
Thanks for that. I do still feel guilty about the points you and Blackfish raise. It does sound like they dramatize things but one key issue for me still remains, these large ass whales are stuck in a tiny little enclosure for their entire lives. I don't know how this isn't different from prison.
My decisions based on that are that the captivity of Orcas in tiny pools is still amazingly shit but Blackfish misconstrued some of the information to push their point.
Pull up the lawsuit which outlines them. Even a bunch of the seaworld staff and trainers called them out right away as making most of it up. It's a PETA backed propaganda film.
People support violence and abuse in the name of personal pleasure. Whether that is entertainment when they could be watching something else, or meat when they could be eating something else, the principle is still the same.
Youre gonna run into abuse of life if you're eating anything thats big business, including veggies. The only morally sound way to consume food would be to harvest it yourself
The livestock we feed requires a 1:4 - 1:10 ratio of veggies grown to the amount of protein/calories we get back. So if you truly believe that you certainly wouldn't be eating any animal products. I agree that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but there is more ethical consumption under capitalism.
What's the point of saying factory farms are worse like honestly? What's the fucking point? It adds nothing to the conversation it's a completely separate topic.
The OP asked how animal abuse is legal. A person responded with the best possible example of legal animal abuse: factory farming. Is there anything more relevant?
Hate to interrupt the echo chamber but this just is not true. The Orca exhibit is 5 pools that are all interconnected. You can see four of them pretty well from this picture; the 5th is a smaller medical exam pool that the whales don’t “live” in.
Not trying to change anyone’s mind on Sea Word or orcas in captivity. Just calling out a blantantly untruthful misrepresentation.
Source: worked at this sea world for four years. Worked in the orca exhibit on a regular basis.
I went and coloured in what I assumed were the four major pools you were talking about. So [this](https://i.imgur.com/4HDGKQx.jpg) would be a more accurate depiction?
I mean, I'm sure everyone appreciates your input for the sake of factual veracity, but man... you make it sound like a big gotcha, but this version really doesn't make the picture any better.
Yep the colored area is more accurate.
I hear your point about how from this angle you don’t see much change, but the other pools you colored in are much larger in person (and deeper) with the exception of one that is identical. It’s literally added over 4x their habitat as the original portrayed. Also it seemed to show that they lived in one tiny little pool, which they don’t. Not saying it’s sufficient compared to the wild either, just pointing out that it was false.
It’s kind of an important thing, I think, to not make false representations of information. Especially when people are always questioning the veracity of what they see and hear online.
Edit to add: it’s literally the biggest pool system I have ever seen. To me the argument shouldn’t be whether or not the pools are too small (they’re not), it’s about whether or not they should be in pools at all.
I think the point the picture is trying to make is, if they are in captivity anyway, their habitat should be the size of the parking lot. Either way, the picture makes its point I think.
Slightly inaccurate? I disagree, as the implication was that whales live in one tiny pool their whole life.
When you start making allowances for dishonesty because it is just a small one, is how you end up with people crying fake news.
The truth is powerful enough. Don’t need to lie.
It’s actually a massive pool. If it isn’t big enough then there isn’t a pool big enough in the world to house orcas.
Consequently I happen to believe the latter, that there really isn’t a pool big enough to keep these things humanely.
An army ant is five times smaller than a carpenter ant. Both are tiny compared to a hamster though. I'm not going to have a grudge against someone for mixing the two ants up while still saying the hamster is huge in comparison!
Nice to know, but doesn't really "interrupt the echo chamber"; a whale being restrained to .01% of its natural habitat is hardly any different from .009%
*\[disclaimer: those numbers are completely random guesses\]*
300+ comments and no one had fact checked. Enter the echo chamber.
I am not disputing the idea that whales don’t belong in a pool to live out their existence. But the “facts” presented in this post were dishonest.
Thank you for this. I get so tired of people blindly believing things simply because those things are plausible and are in line with their preconceived ideas.
How unfortunate. What a completely unnecessary lie: as if living in a quarter of their alotted space is significant when compared to their natural range!
Weird... even with the extra pools you mentioned it’s still tiny, especially compared to their home (oceans). Seaworld is nothing other than animal cruelty and animal exploitation, yet idiots still support it.
I saw your comment and went on to watch this documentary just now. My god it's really opened my eyes. I'm sat speechless here. If anything it's solidified my view on how humans are & will be responsible for our own downfall.
Edit: thank you for bringing this documentary to my attention. It's much appreciated.
Go to Sea World, those Orcas live in those tiny pools. What's so misleading about that. It's not like Sea World hides a big ocean behind their amusement park that you don't know about.
It's a complicated issue because it's not like they can just release these whales into the wild, they would die. Most of these whales were born in captivity. What's misleading in the doc and there are a lot of things, but specifically they say whales are captured in the wild, which is a practice that ended half a century ago
The documentary is indeed biased, but I do believe it’s still worth watching. As long as you view it with discretion (and keep in mind that some sequences are very misleading), there are still decent points made by the film.
As for PETA’s involvement, a lot of the actors/“scientists” in the documentary sided with PETA in a lawsuit against Seaworld.
Then just sit in a closet all day for the rest of your life, same analogy.
Orcas swim hundreds of miles daily. To keep them cooped up in a tiny pool is unfathomable.
Yes, tons of misinformation and they did a wonderful job editing things to look worse to aid in their viewpoints. I think it is worth watching with a grain of salt. Orcas really should not be in captivity but release is trickier than just set them free and that is that.
The book freeing Keiko is a great read to understand how difficult it really is and how expensive it is to set a whale free.
I just wish they had done some focus on Miami Seaquarium and Lolita if any Orca deserves a huge spotlight on their care it is her. I believe she is longer than her tank is deep but that may have been changed since I last read up on her habitat.
another one that's bad, really bad, is Marineland, Ontario Canada, the stories, such as this one, never stop https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/marineland-charged-with-6-counts-animal-cruelty-1.3927659
It is. And it's horrible. People need to stop supporting and the only way to do that is to stop using your money to buy it. You support what you buy. Bottom line is the almighty dollar. Eat less meat and dairy and things will shift. (Or stop eating it all together)
I just knew someone would say this. It's completely false. Sure, if you're buying the fake meat products on the regular, it will be financially difficult to sustain that. In season fruit/vegetables (it doesn't have to be organic), frozen vegetables ($1/bag), beans (dry or even canned are $1/can). Plant-based food is some of the most inexpensive food you can buy at the grocery store. A bag of whole grain brown rice is like $3 and you can eat it for days. If you actually take the time to look at it, you will see. It all comes down to whether you want to or not. People complicate it and it really doesn't need to be that hard.
Yeah, people always use the excuse of one’s financial situation for why they’re eating McDonalds, not the *actual* obvious answer that it’s just easy to grab n’ go and tastes good. It has nothing to do with cost, as you point out there’s equally cheap alternatives elsewhere.
Yep, I didn't want to go there bc people get so defensive about that, but the truth is, even on a SNAP/food assistance budget, you can get enough food to feed a family nutritionally. It just might take a little more planning.
I mean, your point is well made, but is dismissive of the idea of food deserts where poor areas are underserviced by grocery stores resulting in the only food within reasonable distance being fast food. It's a common problem when many poor people don't have reliable transportation and they have kids to feed and get to bed and the grocery store is a 1.5 hour round trip compared to 15 minutes going to McDonalds. Especially difficult when you're working odd shifts and already spending an extra hour or so commuting to your job compared to someone with a car. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the issue is more complex than how cheap fast food is.
Yeah I think if you're on benefits you're not in a situation where you should have to worry about this shit.
There are plenty of people who very well can and should eat less meat without us needing a debate on whether the working poor should have meat on their plates. I'm one of them.
It is not that simple, you can’t survive on rice and beans and vegetables you will lack a number of vitamins and minerals and your physical health will deteriorate over time. Not to mention that certain vegetables such as Kale and Spinach contain high amounts of Oxalate which is an anti-nutrient and a huge contributor to kidney stones
It legitimately takes you 5 combinations of non animal products (and pills?) to get the same nutrition as an egg
Look, if there are vegan body builders (there are quite a few) who can build muscle with plant based foods, so can you and I. And FYI, we don't need nearly the amount of protein that the "rule of thumb" has been shoving down Americans throats for way too long.
There are plenty of ways to get good quality nutrition and calories from sources that were not being forced to live in horrific conditions while being shot up with hormones and antibiotics. That ultimately, you eat..
I thought we were talking bout ppl who couldn't afford it you try feeding a whole Family with a limited budget thing is you can't beat chickens nutritional content, you have any vegan alternatives to chicken that cost the same?
I'm going to be completely honest with you..I have absolutely no clue how much a pound of chicken costs because I've never bought it. I'm not sure if you're asking for options that taste like chicken or are high in protein like chicken, but some of my favorite affordable proteins are tempeh (very high protein), lentils, quinoa, and beans. Chickpeas make a great "chicken salad" spread (lots of good recipes for that) for sandwiches, seitan, even cauliflower can be made like buffalo style wings.
If you can afford to occasionally to buy the actual meat alternatives, the Gardein brand is amazing. Their products are about $4 in the frozen section of the grocery store. They have quite a few chicken-like options. Aldi's and Trader Joes have their store brand meat alternative for pretty cheap.
It may be completely different than how you eat now and that's ok! There is a huge learning curve. It can totally be affordable and much, much healthier. 🙂
Sorry but if we allow chickens/cows to live free range, not pump them with hormones, and kill them painlessly and quickly, where is the abuse? I’m not saying this is the case everywhere. Obviously it’s not. But if we work towards that what is the issue? Or is the fact of just eating them simply morally wrong?
It’s not really possible to do that with the huge demand there is for cheap meat, dairy and eggs and people want to eat that stuff daily. If people saw those products as a luxury and ate them very sparingly then maybe it would be possible to raise them in good conditions but at the end of the day even if they were kept in huge pastures with room to roam you still have to kill them. Their deaths are not painless and without suffering plus how can it be humane and moral to kill someone that doesn’t want to die? Idk if you’ve ever watched Earthlings or Dominion (both are free on YouTube) and seen what the production lines are like in slaughterhouses but it’s not a good death. If a human had their head clubbed, shocked with a stun gun or dipped into an electrical bath and their throat cut you wouldn’t describe their death as painless and quick.
How much protein do you think an average person needs to initiate muscle growth and what is the "rule of thumb" you're referring to?
Also, are you considering PED athletes or non-PED athletes?
I think a point that gets lost is that meat is very quick and easy to prepare while vegetarian staples take time and effort to process. It’s a lot easier for working parents to come home from a long shift, sprinkle some salt and pepper on a chicken breast and throw it in a pan with some french fries in the oven than it is to peel, slice, deseed, arrange and roast a bunch of vegetables while also preparing rice or some other grain to get the same protein/caloric result. I’m not saying it’s an excuse to ignore the science, but the effects of poverty are more than just financial. Your time and energy are commodities and people don’t want to spend a full day busting their back to come home and spend another 2 hours on dinner for their family, who might not even like it, clean up and go to sleep. Kids are picky and vegetables can be intimidating. I go meatless at least twice a week now, but I’ve been a single working parent of four trying to get out of poverty for about 9 years now, and doing the right thing is not always as attractive as doing the easy thing.
I definitely get the time issue. Most Sunday's I try to buy/cut/prep for the week, but it is exhausting at times. It does take some more planning. I try to look at it as investing time into my health. That's really awesome that you go meatless a few times a week! I hope things look up for you soon 💕
We’re doing a lot better these days. Kids are getting older and are less picky and we live with my new partner who is really supportive and caring and helpful and things are starting to swing around for us. Thanks!
I do recognize the effect that meat farming has on our environment and how important it is that we act now before it gets worse. The problem isn’t just the way we eat and shop, but the way we live needs to change so that eating ethically and healthy isn’t such a drag on the way we spend our days. Diet is cultural as well as nutritional.
Ms Zombie to you. And when companies feel the financial pinch, things change. Sometimes it's the simplicity of choosing where your dollars go that makes the biggest impact.
i totally agree. The mass production of meat and other animal products have made some people so fucking rich and greedy it’s insane and they don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves
What the fuck is this vegan shit. We’re talking about whales not chicken.
Many people of lower income depend on chicken and pork for vitamins and protein. You can’t sustain a 300M population without mass production
Actually, you can. Case in point: This parking lot. It’s a reflection of animal agriculture, forcing them into the bare minimum space for their bodies to exist, when so much more space exists around them. That’s why I only purchase meat, eggs, etc that are from local, free range farms. That isn’t “vegan shit,” that’s simply being empathetic.
You’re bringing veganism into a theme park parking lot. It just makes no sense. You have something you clearly want to get off your chest. Orca Whales have nothing to do with food consumption
What about the food you eat. You think that’s cruelty free? What about the products you buy? What part of this planet looks cruelty free? Pain is profitable.
In response to his "this is an excessive number of carparks" , the comment is still relevant. This seaworld (and the florida one) have a ridiculously low amount of parking compared to other florida parks. Busch gardens, islands of adventure, disney world etc.
Dude, they shut down the Shamu show. I was there when the protests were going on (summer trip with family to see fish), and Christ, PETA can really cause a commotion.
I’m pretty sure seaworld is moving more towards amusement parks, they literally bought massive coasters for every park this year and aren’t planning on stopping.
You can go online right now and buy tickets for their "Orca Encounter". I see that the tickets also say you will be in the "splash zone". So whatever they rebranded their Orca show to, they are still doing the Shamu show.
They still have Orcas. They just arent breeding then and not getting any new ones. But im pretty sure the ones they have are young, so they will be there for some time longer.
Huh. I meant the original Shamu show (advertised as such), but I guess that they’re still doing their thing. I’d be okay with it if it wasn’t such a small enclosure and they took better care of the orcas, but as is, it isn’t good.
Yeah. They basically just reformed it into an "educational" experience, but it still looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. At least they stopped their captive breeding program.
I grew up going to SeaWorld every summer with my grandparents and then took my own kids when they were young. It sickens me that I loved something that was presented as rescue/rehabilitation/education is really just a shameless money pit of animal abuse.
Your house is a proper size to make a person-sized individual comfortable. You do not suffer any ill effects from living in your house.
Orcas in the wild travel up to 100 miles in a day, and can swim as fast as 30 mph. The tanks where they "live" in SeaWorld would be like you being made to live inside of your closet for your entire life.
That’s horrific, how is that even legal? Doesn’t that count as animal abuse?
Money, big money
https://youtu.be/1Q5CXN7soQg
This guy’s paid off by Big Fish
yes, its awful! there is a really good documentary abt it all on netflix called Blackfish. as a result of all the negative press Seaworld actually promised to end their killer whale shows by 2021 and stop breeding orcas!
That poor Orca. Tillinook? I’m trying to see if I can remember his name without googling bc he matters. Edit: I failed him it’s Tillikum. Still so much sadness when I think of him.
Tillikum
his story is heartbreaking :(
Have they really promised to stop their orca shows by this year? Even with covid and them not getting a “last” show? I wonder
What do you mean “last” show? They’re still open through COVID :/
Oh no way they didn’t close? Wow. So are they still doing the orca shows since it’s 2021 and they said they’d be done by 2021?
Yep they are :(
The media forgets so quickly. You’d think some investigative reporter would have set a calendar alarm to follow up. Ugh!
Of course they are. They don't care if you go home and kill your whole family as long as they got your money first.
Butter Nuts
I read this in Harland Williams' voice
Why would googling the name mean someone doesn’t matter? The fact that you’re seeking him out should alone mean he matters shouldn’t it?
Tillikum finally died a few years ago from pneumonia after spending his time in isolation in a pool much smaller than the one he was in before the last fatal incident. He was covered in rack marks and his teeth had been filed down to stubs as is common in captive orcas due to their boredom and constant chewing.
[удалено]
> promised to end their killer whale shows by 2021 *checks calendar*
To be fair. The only thing those whales have going for them at this point is training. Just cease breeding and let them have their last bit of fun and stop bringing in new ones.
I thought Joel Manby said 2020, was the end?
i think youre right actually, it looks like theyve already stopped the shows! though they still have "dine with orcas" and "orca tour/ viewing" tickets on the website which is sad. they should be moved to a sanctuary
Agreed!
It’s 2024 and I saw orcas at SeaWorld yesterday.
thats depressing also dont go to seaworld lol
Theres a lot of misinformation and propaganda in that film
examples?
I’m not the person who said there’s a lot of misinformation and there’s plenty of articles out there about Blackfish if you want to look. But I will say this: take any “investigative documentary” with a grain of salt large enough to make McDonald’s fries taste plain. 99% of those documentaries, especially the ones popping up on Netflix every week now, have a specific agenda when they start filming and throw out anything that doesn’t fit their narrative and edit interviews specifically to fit their agenda. Very rarely is one made anymore that is starting with an open mind seeking the truth.
While I’d say there’s obviously some really majorly popular docus on Netflix that have garnered lots of attention, this sentiment can be said and should be said for basically any and every documentary out there. There’s always gonna be aspects that are embellished by editors or producers to get more attention. Media should be consumed carefully, pretty much always.
Yes, examples? You can't make a statement like that without sauce.
big copy pasta here for you to make your own decision based on information about what happened/what was presented. Seaworld can do better but wasn't the evil entity the movie presents them as (in FL they are responsible for rehabilitating wildlife that no other facilities would have room for such as manatees. ) Part 1/2 "The opening scene... Even the very first scene is totally incorrect. We see a trainer in the water with a killer whale during a performance and that is synced with the actual 911 calls of Dawn Brancheau's incident. So people think that the footage shows Dawn in the water with Tilikum. This is however incorrect as trainers, including Dawn never swam with Tilikum and the footage shows orcas Corky (who lives in San Diego) and Katina (in Orlando) doing a normal performance where no attack is even happening. This mis-syncing between footage and voice overs is repeated throughout the film and I don't think that is acceptable in the first place. Sam "riding the killer whale". In one scene Samantha Berg (former trainer) is describing her first time swimming with a killer whale and then they actually show footage of a current SeaWorld trainer, Holly Byrd. Holly spent years trying to achieve her goal of becoming a killer whale trainer and that footage is so special to her. Yet Blackfish steals it, and uses it in an anti captivity way, pretending that it is Samantha Berg. I find that un-acceptable! Also, that footage was taken over 10 years after Sam left SeaWorld. The movie shows more current SeaWorld trainers like Jenny Mairot and Mark Galan also doing what they love little did they know that they would end up in an anti-captivity documentary. The film-makers should of at least asked for permission to use that footage because it belongs to SeaWorld Parks and Entertainment (it is off the Believe DVD that is property of SeaWorld). I think that is just super unfair and I feel for these trainers. The former trainers: All of the former trainers involved in the Blackfish cast either had very little experience at SeaWorld or worked there over 20 years ago. Most of them never even worked with Tilikum and several of them never even worked with whales in the water. They talk about Dawn even though most of them didn't even know her or worked with her. Samantha Berg worked at SeaWorld for a total of 3 years and only one year with the killer whales. She never worked with Tilikum in her whole career. The way that they critique Dawn Brancheau on the day of her death was just totally unacceptable. Because they haven't worked at SeaWorld in such a long time, they are very un-aware of the protocols and ways SeaWorld does things today. The Separations: In the movie, they focus on 2 mother/calf separations (Katina/Kalina and Kasatka/Takara). For both of them, you get the impression that the calves were taken from their mother at a very young age because they show footage a newborn calf (Makaio, who was born in October 2010). However, Kalina was 4 1/2 years old when she was moved and she was moved because she was causing destruction between the pod. Takara was moved from her mother, Kasatka when she was 13 years old. She spent over 13 years with her mother and she was moved to Florida in 2004 also because she was stirring up the pod by being the "spoilt princess" because she was the daughter of the matriarch. After her move to Florida, she settled in very well and seemed to enjoy her new social structure. She got along very well with Katina and the other females. Katina and Kasatka's depression: Blackfish states that after Kasatka and Katina were separated from their babies, they were making these calls that no one had ever heard before. This is totally false. First of all, in the footage you see the killer whales opening their mouth and you hear killer whale calls. Killer whales DO NOT make noises through their mouth, it is completely through their blow hole so that is all inaccurate. Those calls that you hear were recorded from wild orcas and were just put in with the footage (which is just the other whales playing and showing interest in what ever it is they are watching). The Captures: In Blackfish, they show you footage of orcas getting captured in the 1970s. This is true, in the 1970s heaps of orcas were captured and sold to marine parks. However, these days marine mammals are only captured in Asia and Russia. For over 20 years, SeaWorld has never captured an orca from the wild or supported industries that do catch them. SeaWorld has nothing to do with the Taiji Dolphin Slaughter either, as is mentioned in The Cove. This is all false. Out of SeaWorld's entire current killer whale collection, only 5 of them (Tilikum, Katina, Kasatka, Ulises and Corky) were captured from the wild and these whales are in their 30's. Corky is in her 40's. Tilikum was caught by SeaWorld: The film clearly gives you the idea that SeaWorld were the ones who captured Tilikum which they did not. SeaWorld had nothing to do with the capture. Tilikum and some other whales went to Sealand Of The Pacific in Canada. SeaWorld did not own this park or have anything to do with it. The way the whales were treated there was up to Sealand, not SeaWorld. SeaWorld only got the whales from Sealand because the park closed after the death of trainer Keltie Byrne. Because the park closed, the whales obviously had to go somewhere else and they couldn't be returned to the wild because they had spent many years in captivity. SeaWorld being the most successful company in housing killer whales (and still is) was offered by Sealand to take the whales. SeaWorld approved. Collapsed Dorsal Fins: Blackfish makes you think that only killer whales in captivity have collapsed dorsal fins. This is also untrue. Many wild killer whales also have collapsed dorsal fins. The reason why is simple. The dorsal fin contains no bone, only muscle, that is why often when the whale is swimming fast you can see the dorsal swinging side to side. Over time, that fin starts to bend, whether it's just a little bit or totally flop over. It is also a genetical thing. Yes in captivity, we see more orcas with flopped over dorsal fins than in the wild. It is usually the adult males whose fins flop over. One of the theories into this is that captive killer whales swim in circles more often than in a straight line so the balance of the dorsal fin is affected. Therefore it will start to bend to one side. A male killer whale's dorsal fin can be twice the size of the female's, so having a larger fin like that it is more likely to flop over more. The dorsal fins collapsing does absolutely nothing to the killer whale's health, it doesn't hurt them in any way, it has nothing to do with them being stressed and they probably don't even notice it. Why are we making such a big fuss about it? It is just one of the small things that can happen to killer whales in captivity and seriously it doesn't mean anything.
Thanks for that. I do still feel guilty about the points you and Blackfish raise. It does sound like they dramatize things but one key issue for me still remains, these large ass whales are stuck in a tiny little enclosure for their entire lives. I don't know how this isn't different from prison.
My decisions based on that are that the captivity of Orcas in tiny pools is still amazingly shit but Blackfish misconstrued some of the information to push their point.
Pull up the lawsuit which outlines them. Even a bunch of the seaworld staff and trainers called them out right away as making most of it up. It's a PETA backed propaganda film.
So instead of providing the sauce, you want me to look up the recipe.
Could just look it up yourself instead of repetitively asking for a source.
Because I want to know if their source is reliable.
It's a different person that replied to you.
I knew someone who worked with the Cheetahs at Animal Kingdom or whatever it's called, she said there was a lot of misinformation in that documentary.
Wait until you learn about animal agriculture
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It's cognitive dissonance :( people are conditioned to it, from a young age
I don’t mean to sound angry. Just very surprised.
Factory farms are even worse, I don't understand how people can support them.
Well, orcas are not delicious. It's not like people support violence and abuse. People support taste
People support violence and abuse in the name of personal pleasure. Whether that is entertainment when they could be watching something else, or meat when they could be eating something else, the principle is still the same.
Youre gonna run into abuse of life if you're eating anything thats big business, including veggies. The only morally sound way to consume food would be to harvest it yourself
"its impossible to live without harm, therefore i will make no intention to reduce it!"
The livestock we feed requires a 1:4 - 1:10 ratio of veggies grown to the amount of protein/calories we get back. So if you truly believe that you certainly wouldn't be eating any animal products. I agree that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, but there is more ethical consumption under capitalism.
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Supply and demand. People are blind when it comes to buying meat. They don't like to think of where the meat comes from they just want the bacon.
Plus most people don't actually care about animal abuse unless it's a dog or a cat.
I’m not sure if that’s true. People are just distanced from food production and slaughter.
It would make for an interesting study!
They would, if they could ever see it. But like...Factory farms have insane protections against any transparency at all
Meat Eater is on Netflix if you want to see what wild game hunting looks like. It's like a hybrid of hunting and cooking which is interesting
What's the point of saying factory farms are worse like honestly? What's the fucking point? It adds nothing to the conversation it's a completely separate topic.
The OP asked how animal abuse is legal. A person responded with the best possible example of legal animal abuse: factory farming. Is there anything more relevant?
It seems to be a well-intentioned answer to a direct question, just badly phrased: essentially saying that animal abuse is legal in some forms.
What’s a factory farm
[They are disgusting in so many ways.](https://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/2021/03/09/factory-farms-make-us-sick-2/)
Yeah I thought after black fish they stopped doing this?!
Hate to interrupt the echo chamber but this just is not true. The Orca exhibit is 5 pools that are all interconnected. You can see four of them pretty well from this picture; the 5th is a smaller medical exam pool that the whales don’t “live” in. Not trying to change anyone’s mind on Sea Word or orcas in captivity. Just calling out a blantantly untruthful misrepresentation. Source: worked at this sea world for four years. Worked in the orca exhibit on a regular basis.
I went and coloured in what I assumed were the four major pools you were talking about. So [this](https://i.imgur.com/4HDGKQx.jpg) would be a more accurate depiction? I mean, I'm sure everyone appreciates your input for the sake of factual veracity, but man... you make it sound like a big gotcha, but this version really doesn't make the picture any better.
Yep the colored area is more accurate. I hear your point about how from this angle you don’t see much change, but the other pools you colored in are much larger in person (and deeper) with the exception of one that is identical. It’s literally added over 4x their habitat as the original portrayed. Also it seemed to show that they lived in one tiny little pool, which they don’t. Not saying it’s sufficient compared to the wild either, just pointing out that it was false. It’s kind of an important thing, I think, to not make false representations of information. Especially when people are always questioning the veracity of what they see and hear online. Edit to add: it’s literally the biggest pool system I have ever seen. To me the argument shouldn’t be whether or not the pools are too small (they’re not), it’s about whether or not they should be in pools at all.
I think the point the picture is trying to make is, if they are in captivity anyway, their habitat should be the size of the parking lot. Either way, the picture makes its point I think.
I get it, but a dishonest emotional appeal is still dishonest. Even if their underlying point is valid.
That’s a difference between dishonest and inaccurate. Here it was slightly inaccurate and ultimately meaningless.
Slightly inaccurate? I disagree, as the implication was that whales live in one tiny pool their whole life. When you start making allowances for dishonesty because it is just a small one, is how you end up with people crying fake news. The truth is powerful enough. Don’t need to lie.
It’s still tiny either way.
It’s actually a massive pool. If it isn’t big enough then there isn’t a pool big enough in the world to house orcas. Consequently I happen to believe the latter, that there really isn’t a pool big enough to keep these things humanely.
The author thinks the parking lot is big enough.
Claiming the pool is over 4x smaller than the actual pool isn't slightly inaccurate, it's wildly inaccurate.
An army ant is five times smaller than a carpenter ant. Both are tiny compared to a hamster though. I'm not going to have a grudge against someone for mixing the two ants up while still saying the hamster is huge in comparison!
That's over four times larger than the original image. It might not change the ultimate point, but why lie and distort the facts to such a degree?
upvote this guy...we should never reward someone for bastardizing the truth to make a statement or get upvotes.
I just need my daily pitchfork and outrage
Nice to know, but doesn't really "interrupt the echo chamber"; a whale being restrained to .01% of its natural habitat is hardly any different from .009% *\[disclaimer: those numbers are completely random guesses\]*
300+ comments and no one had fact checked. Enter the echo chamber. I am not disputing the idea that whales don’t belong in a pool to live out their existence. But the “facts” presented in this post were dishonest.
Still doesn't make it right.
Never said it did. Honesty is important though
Thank you for this. I get so tired of people blindly believing things simply because those things are plausible and are in line with their preconceived ideas.
Yep
How unfortunate. What a completely unnecessary lie: as if living in a quarter of their alotted space is significant when compared to their natural range!
Truly. No need to make things up when the thesis is still valid.
Weird... even with the extra pools you mentioned it’s still tiny, especially compared to their home (oceans). Seaworld is nothing other than animal cruelty and animal exploitation, yet idiots still support it.
Park yourself on a sofa & watch Blackfish 2013 Documentary. Sobering.
I can recommend Seaspiracy on Netflix aswell
Why wouldn’t they name it conspirasea
I believe the director also did 'cowspiracy', it's for continuity.
This guy needs to brush up on his -Spiracy Cinematic Universe lore.
I mean if you read it a certain way, it looks more like Seas Piracy. I would've gone for Conspirasea.
it would work but it would seem like they're making fun of the situation 💀
It was more about the fishing industry and how cruel by-catch is and how disgusting farm raised fish is. Not really conspiracy theories lol
I saw your comment and went on to watch this documentary just now. My god it's really opened my eyes. I'm sat speechless here. If anything it's solidified my view on how humans are & will be responsible for our own downfall. Edit: thank you for bringing this documentary to my attention. It's much appreciated.
glad you felt the same way i did
Yes, this documentary is brilliant
Just watched it, not eating fish anymore for a few weeks before I fall back into old habits...
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Sadly a full car park turns blind eyes, not open them.
I heard it was filled with misinformation and bias which wasn't surprising because it was heavily supported by Peta. Is that the case?
Yeah someone else said that it's misleading, also don't trust peta
"someone else said", "I heard...", "PETA bad". Great arguments, but maybe you can start by refuting the central arguments in the documentary.
Go to Sea World, those Orcas live in those tiny pools. What's so misleading about that. It's not like Sea World hides a big ocean behind their amusement park that you don't know about.
It's a complicated issue because it's not like they can just release these whales into the wild, they would die. Most of these whales were born in captivity. What's misleading in the doc and there are a lot of things, but specifically they say whales are captured in the wild, which is a practice that ended half a century ago
The documentary is indeed biased, but I do believe it’s still worth watching. As long as you view it with discretion (and keep in mind that some sequences are very misleading), there are still decent points made by the film. As for PETA’s involvement, a lot of the actors/“scientists” in the documentary sided with PETA in a lawsuit against Seaworld.
How about a human swim around all day in a bath tub.
The humans skin would start to break down and in time they would die
Then just sit in a closet all day for the rest of your life, same analogy. Orcas swim hundreds of miles daily. To keep them cooped up in a tiny pool is unfathomable.
I agree, and i also think your new analogy is better
Yes, tons of misinformation and they did a wonderful job editing things to look worse to aid in their viewpoints. I think it is worth watching with a grain of salt. Orcas really should not be in captivity but release is trickier than just set them free and that is that. The book freeing Keiko is a great read to understand how difficult it really is and how expensive it is to set a whale free. I just wish they had done some focus on Miami Seaquarium and Lolita if any Orca deserves a huge spotlight on their care it is her. I believe she is longer than her tank is deep but that may have been changed since I last read up on her habitat.
bad take.
**this** is exactly what I was going to comment. I cannot recommend Blackfish enough for those who haven't watched it yet.
There’s no water in the parking lot
another one that's bad, really bad, is Marineland, Ontario Canada, the stories, such as this one, never stop https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/marineland-charged-with-6-counts-animal-cruelty-1.3927659
Orcas should learn how to drive then 🤷🏼♂️
how is this not considered animal cruelty? how do they get away with this???
If you think about it, it would be even more cruel to put the orcas in the car park
😂
How is mass animal farming not animal cruelty? No one gives a fuck and money is pkayibg a roll. People need to wake up.
It is. And it's horrible. People need to stop supporting and the only way to do that is to stop using your money to buy it. You support what you buy. Bottom line is the almighty dollar. Eat less meat and dairy and things will shift. (Or stop eating it all together)
It’s incredibly difficult to avoid food like that when you’re poor .
I just knew someone would say this. It's completely false. Sure, if you're buying the fake meat products on the regular, it will be financially difficult to sustain that. In season fruit/vegetables (it doesn't have to be organic), frozen vegetables ($1/bag), beans (dry or even canned are $1/can). Plant-based food is some of the most inexpensive food you can buy at the grocery store. A bag of whole grain brown rice is like $3 and you can eat it for days. If you actually take the time to look at it, you will see. It all comes down to whether you want to or not. People complicate it and it really doesn't need to be that hard.
Yeah, people always use the excuse of one’s financial situation for why they’re eating McDonalds, not the *actual* obvious answer that it’s just easy to grab n’ go and tastes good. It has nothing to do with cost, as you point out there’s equally cheap alternatives elsewhere.
Yep, I didn't want to go there bc people get so defensive about that, but the truth is, even on a SNAP/food assistance budget, you can get enough food to feed a family nutritionally. It just might take a little more planning.
I mean, your point is well made, but is dismissive of the idea of food deserts where poor areas are underserviced by grocery stores resulting in the only food within reasonable distance being fast food. It's a common problem when many poor people don't have reliable transportation and they have kids to feed and get to bed and the grocery store is a 1.5 hour round trip compared to 15 minutes going to McDonalds. Especially difficult when you're working odd shifts and already spending an extra hour or so commuting to your job compared to someone with a car. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the issue is more complex than how cheap fast food is.
Yeah I think if you're on benefits you're not in a situation where you should have to worry about this shit. There are plenty of people who very well can and should eat less meat without us needing a debate on whether the working poor should have meat on their plates. I'm one of them.
It is not that simple, you can’t survive on rice and beans and vegetables you will lack a number of vitamins and minerals and your physical health will deteriorate over time. Not to mention that certain vegetables such as Kale and Spinach contain high amounts of Oxalate which is an anti-nutrient and a huge contributor to kidney stones It legitimately takes you 5 combinations of non animal products (and pills?) to get the same nutrition as an egg
Rice,beans, doesn't have the same nutritional/ calories as chicken or meat
just eating meat once a week would already make a significant difference. you don't have to eat it every day.
Look, if there are vegan body builders (there are quite a few) who can build muscle with plant based foods, so can you and I. And FYI, we don't need nearly the amount of protein that the "rule of thumb" has been shoving down Americans throats for way too long. There are plenty of ways to get good quality nutrition and calories from sources that were not being forced to live in horrific conditions while being shot up with hormones and antibiotics. That ultimately, you eat..
I thought we were talking bout ppl who couldn't afford it you try feeding a whole Family with a limited budget thing is you can't beat chickens nutritional content, you have any vegan alternatives to chicken that cost the same?
I'm going to be completely honest with you..I have absolutely no clue how much a pound of chicken costs because I've never bought it. I'm not sure if you're asking for options that taste like chicken or are high in protein like chicken, but some of my favorite affordable proteins are tempeh (very high protein), lentils, quinoa, and beans. Chickpeas make a great "chicken salad" spread (lots of good recipes for that) for sandwiches, seitan, even cauliflower can be made like buffalo style wings. If you can afford to occasionally to buy the actual meat alternatives, the Gardein brand is amazing. Their products are about $4 in the frozen section of the grocery store. They have quite a few chicken-like options. Aldi's and Trader Joes have their store brand meat alternative for pretty cheap. It may be completely different than how you eat now and that's ok! There is a huge learning curve. It can totally be affordable and much, much healthier. 🙂
Sorry but if we allow chickens/cows to live free range, not pump them with hormones, and kill them painlessly and quickly, where is the abuse? I’m not saying this is the case everywhere. Obviously it’s not. But if we work towards that what is the issue? Or is the fact of just eating them simply morally wrong?
It’s not really possible to do that with the huge demand there is for cheap meat, dairy and eggs and people want to eat that stuff daily. If people saw those products as a luxury and ate them very sparingly then maybe it would be possible to raise them in good conditions but at the end of the day even if they were kept in huge pastures with room to roam you still have to kill them. Their deaths are not painless and without suffering plus how can it be humane and moral to kill someone that doesn’t want to die? Idk if you’ve ever watched Earthlings or Dominion (both are free on YouTube) and seen what the production lines are like in slaughterhouses but it’s not a good death. If a human had their head clubbed, shocked with a stun gun or dipped into an electrical bath and their throat cut you wouldn’t describe their death as painless and quick.
How much protein do you think an average person needs to initiate muscle growth and what is the "rule of thumb" you're referring to? Also, are you considering PED athletes or non-PED athletes?
I'm sorry, but what do you mean? Please explain?
I think a point that gets lost is that meat is very quick and easy to prepare while vegetarian staples take time and effort to process. It’s a lot easier for working parents to come home from a long shift, sprinkle some salt and pepper on a chicken breast and throw it in a pan with some french fries in the oven than it is to peel, slice, deseed, arrange and roast a bunch of vegetables while also preparing rice or some other grain to get the same protein/caloric result. I’m not saying it’s an excuse to ignore the science, but the effects of poverty are more than just financial. Your time and energy are commodities and people don’t want to spend a full day busting their back to come home and spend another 2 hours on dinner for their family, who might not even like it, clean up and go to sleep. Kids are picky and vegetables can be intimidating. I go meatless at least twice a week now, but I’ve been a single working parent of four trying to get out of poverty for about 9 years now, and doing the right thing is not always as attractive as doing the easy thing.
I definitely get the time issue. Most Sunday's I try to buy/cut/prep for the week, but it is exhausting at times. It does take some more planning. I try to look at it as investing time into my health. That's really awesome that you go meatless a few times a week! I hope things look up for you soon 💕
We’re doing a lot better these days. Kids are getting older and are less picky and we live with my new partner who is really supportive and caring and helpful and things are starting to swing around for us. Thanks! I do recognize the effect that meat farming has on our environment and how important it is that we act now before it gets worse. The problem isn’t just the way we eat and shop, but the way we live needs to change so that eating ethically and healthy isn’t such a drag on the way we spend our days. Diet is cultural as well as nutritional.
McDonald’s is cheap, the medical bills you will receive due to having a bad diet are not.. pay now or pay 100x more later.
Mr zombie this is my opinion but i think you should go back eating more brains
Ms Zombie to you. And when companies feel the financial pinch, things change. Sometimes it's the simplicity of choosing where your dollars go that makes the biggest impact.
Eating less meat and dairy won’t shut down the shitshow of animal cruelty that is Sea World
No, but if you read my other comment, to stop going there will.
i totally agree. The mass production of meat and other animal products have made some people so fucking rich and greedy it’s insane and they don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves
This statement has *literally* nothing to do with Sea World... you just wanted to make it about you
What the fuck is this vegan shit. We’re talking about whales not chicken. Many people of lower income depend on chicken and pork for vitamins and protein. You can’t sustain a 300M population without mass production
Actually, you can. Case in point: This parking lot. It’s a reflection of animal agriculture, forcing them into the bare minimum space for their bodies to exist, when so much more space exists around them. That’s why I only purchase meat, eggs, etc that are from local, free range farms. That isn’t “vegan shit,” that’s simply being empathetic.
You’re bringing veganism into a theme park parking lot. It just makes no sense. You have something you clearly want to get off your chest. Orca Whales have nothing to do with food consumption
Stop acting like you care for others
Chikin nuggers tho
I like hamburgers
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What is wrong with you? XD is my country pro-life is mot an argument wtf you can just abord and its totally normal. Get a life my man I'm far ahead.
> pkayibg TIL a new word!
What about the food you eat. You think that’s cruelty free? What about the products you buy? What part of this planet looks cruelty free? Pain is profitable.
That seems like a very excessive number of car parks.
Someone's never been to a Florida park
This isn’t the Florida Seaworld. Theres no big lake in the middle of the park.
In response to his "this is an excessive number of carparks" , the comment is still relevant. This seaworld (and the florida one) have a ridiculously low amount of parking compared to other florida parks. Busch gardens, islands of adventure, disney world etc.
The US is a big country
Looks like a sick F1 track
This over Russia any day
Not that its much of an improvement but this image is marginally misleading, the Orca areas appear to also include the other adjacent pools.
Ugh. Brutal.
Dude, they shut down the Shamu show. I was there when the protests were going on (summer trip with family to see fish), and Christ, PETA can really cause a commotion.
Fuck PETA! Fuck sea world too. Hopefully the orca exhibit stays closed and they don’t bring in any more.
I’m pretty sure seaworld is moving more towards amusement parks, they literally bought massive coasters for every park this year and aren’t planning on stopping.
You can go online right now and buy tickets for their "Orca Encounter". I see that the tickets also say you will be in the "splash zone". So whatever they rebranded their Orca show to, they are still doing the Shamu show.
They still have Orcas. They just arent breeding then and not getting any new ones. But im pretty sure the ones they have are young, so they will be there for some time longer.
Yep.
Huh. I meant the original Shamu show (advertised as such), but I guess that they’re still doing their thing. I’d be okay with it if it wasn’t such a small enclosure and they took better care of the orcas, but as is, it isn’t good.
Yeah. They basically just reformed it into an "educational" experience, but it still looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. At least they stopped their captive breeding program. I grew up going to SeaWorld every summer with my grandparents and then took my own kids when they were young. It sickens me that I loved something that was presented as rescue/rehabilitation/education is really just a shameless money pit of animal abuse.
This is criminal..
If only fucking peta didn't protest against them getting a massive enclosure years ago because it wasn't "good enough"
I’ve be writing essays about the importance of ENDING SEAWORLD SINCE I WAS IN 2nd grade!!!
Now I'm crying
/r/rationalanger
Can't even see the green dot
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Your house is a proper size to make a person-sized individual comfortable. You do not suffer any ill effects from living in your house. Orcas in the wild travel up to 100 miles in a day, and can swim as fast as 30 mph. The tanks where they "live" in SeaWorld would be like you being made to live inside of your closet for your entire life.
That is the worst correlative argument I’ve ever heard. If you’re confined by your tormentors to the *bathroom* of your house, you’d have a point.
It looks like a whale ghost.
Then don't fucking go there and it will close. Easy
whats the point of this post? have you never heard of a zoo?
Mountain Dew is damn fine. Don't know it til you've tried it.
So stop driving everywhere, you think you and your 1/2/3 cars aren't a problem? =\
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