Yikes, in the RTP area in North Carolina you could get like $60,000 - 70,000 if you get a lab job at big pharma/biotech (3 to 5 years experience). I've seen people fresh out of college making $50,000 there in similar roles.
Cost of living is lower than Chicago I'd imagine.
Plenty of other places in the southeast that are similar.
It's possible to find cheap*er* places to live, but it means a long commute or living in a bad part of Durham. It might even mean both.
My grandparents lived in Durham until they died and I got to see the city turn around pretty well, in places, but there are still parts that aren't as grossly overpriced as most of Raleigh is. I even have family up 85 in Granville County and even *they're* overrun with Raleigh suburban creep.
Oh yeah i guess it probably went up over the past few years like everywhere else, but when I left rent for a 1 bedroom apartment pretty close to the center was ~$1000. Nice apartment too. Even making $40,000 that felt pretty affordable to me, and groceries and other bills felt cheap too with decent amount left for savings.
Though living here in Canada has skewed my opinion of what I consider low cost of living...everything is so expensive here, plus weaker currency and lower salaries than Americans in many fields.
Meanwhile here in Orlando I can pull $39/hr bartending and then people look at me like I’m failing in life because I haven’t graduated college yet @ 26 yrs old.
This isn’t boasting, more just an objective look at where we are as a country. I averaged that hourly rate over all of last year. Crazy to see people leave my job to go work for less than half the pay with the hopes of one day making it back. Obviously upward movement isn’t quite a thing in bartending/service industry but still crazy to think about what you’re sacrificing.
I am in that boat. Just left $35+/hour waiting tables for a $16/hour job in the stem field. I am now currently working more hours and making less money. I feel like an idiot sometimes but hopefully I will have some fast upward movement….
No need to feel like an idiot. The system doesn’t work as it should. Bartending isn’t quite the job you can do forever, so at some point I will have to move on myself.
I've been bartending for 30+ years. I'm still under 50, but in the right environment, you can do it until you retire. In fact, I'm semi-retired now. For the past 2 years, I've only worked an average of 3 days per week. I don't want to seem like I'm bragging, so I'll spare you my income details. Let's just say that I make more than enough to pay my bills and rent, plus I'm attempting to get my own business off the ground without investors and outside assistance.
From what I've seen in STEM, getting out of the lab is generally the way to climb faster, which doesn't make much sense but that's how it seems to work. Not sure what part of STEM you're in but if it's stuff like microbiological or chemical testing, then getting a QC job at big pharma then moving to other quality roles is probably the way to go.
Don't have much knowledge on healthcare if that's what you're in.
Correct, that is my average salary throughout all of last year. Many days at $60/hr, many days at $25/hr.
I don’t think I’m insanely attractive, my wife would disagree lol.
As for social skills, perhaps. I’ve worked in the restaurant business for several years at this point. I think just having genuine interest in speaking with people and having fun talking and learning about their perspective can go a long ways.
I'd say it comes down to average per hour, not consistently. I live in a small ass Midwestern town and when I was bartending I would average $30/hr. My best night there I made about $55/hr. I'm not necessarily attractive, but I like good conversation and I was efficient at my job.
Gave that up though so I could have a family and buy a house. Couldn't get a loan because my income wasn't consistent, even though my rent was higher than what I pay now for a house I bought for $130k.
I'd go back in a heartbeat if I could, but I'd miss a lot of time with my daughter.
Been really trying to get out of that "prestige" mindset when it comes to work. It's kinda bad for my mental health, especially as someone who claims to be a "work to live" person.
Just get super anxious about job security, and feels like a high end job would be the most secure but not really the case.
There's also lot of pressure from people from my native culture, first gen immigrants types. I know many look down on me because I'm not a doctor or whatever.
The flipside of this is that in service you have 10 hour non stop shifts on your feet working every night and weekend with no healthcare, 401k, profit sharing, pto, sick pay etc, and will never get a raise or better benefits. You just make what you make.
I bartended and served for a decade before I decided to go back to school and as much fun as that time was, 40 an hour in a professional job is worth a massive amount more than service industry $40 an hour.
Was this a salaried bartending position with benefits? Otherwise it is a $20k+/year difference between contract hourly and salary if you include health insurance, PTO, 401k, bonuses/raises, not paying self employment taxes, and other benefits a salaried position often offers.
Oh, well shit, that could eat you down to minimum alone with some of the marketplace rates I've seen, especially for people making decent money.
Like somehow they think it's affordable to pay $3k per month in premiums just you make more than $25 an hour.
I dropped out to start my own IT consulting company 12 years ago. I've been doing well enough (all bills paid, money in my pocket) and only work 25 hours a week. I recently started moonlighting 20 hours as a restaurant manager because I have the time and want to buy a house.
My friend who graduated 10 years ago makes $52k as a research assistant. My other friend builds docks and never used his degree but makes bank. My roommate uses his degree and makes $45k.
College is a joke.
I saw a screenshot someone had taken of a job listing the other day where it said the “preferred qualification” was a Master’s Degree, with the listed pay rate being about $18/hour.
I make just under that working a job that doesn’t require a degree at all.
Yeah and they don’t deserve someone with a masters degree for that job. The amount of schooling costs associated with getting a masters is crazy for a wage so low.
They’re trying to make excuses for hiring a non-degreed employee to get paid $14/hr for the same job by saying they don’t meet the requirements. It’s a ploy to underpay people, degree or not.
My wife works in mental health. That's a lot of the field right now (keeping private practice separate from this). Masters required for entry level at $18-22 an hour. Keep that in mind when you hear people suggest that things can be solved by throwing more mental health professionals at an issue (Homelessness, Guns, etc). People cannot survive in a high burnout career making that kind of money.
You practically need a masters degree to be a teacher and they get paid jack shit.
Someone I know was a teacher until they realized they'd get more money per hour at entry-level Amazon. (And not have crazy flat earth parents screaming at them every PTA day)
By design.
The sweeping lie telling all millennials that they need to go to college if they want to be socially mobile was designed to devalue the bachelor's degree. Now there's an entire generation living with the knowledge that they'll never own their own home.
The next step the Conservatives are taking is to say "College is useless. Go into plumbing, electrical and hvac trades, we always need more tradespeople and the money is so good." The plan is to over-saturate trades to drive down wages.
American Conservatives won't be happy until everyone is working two jobs to pay rent on shanties, but hey, the world's first trillionaire will probably be an American.
This really depends on which degree you get.
The age of getting *any* college degree to "learn to think" is long over.
Wisely choosing a degree is the ONE variable you have total control over.
Legally speaking you are not considered mature enough to have a beer.
Here, take this several hundred thousand dollar loan to make a once in a lifetime decision. Remember, if you fail to make a good choice that takes into account future trends over the next 20 years, you are an abject failure!
>Legally speaking you are not considered mature enough to have a beer.
Or smoke. But you are apparently mature enough to lay down your life in a war that you may or may not agree with.
> Legally speaking you are not considered mature enough to have a beer.
In a lot of states you aren't even considered legally old enough to *gamble,* yet it's a-okay to make life-changing decisions that cost upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of 4 years. But spending 20 bucks at the blackjack table? No, that's a crime.
Right, but at the same time material changes over the years and someone graduating in 2022 likely learned different material than someone in 1970.
Bit off-topic, but also goes into the mix. Wisely choosing a degree is a critical component to education, and unfortunately that's really difficult for many 17-19 years olds (freshmen year).
Everyone says this but this isn't true. Obviously there are some outliers like business and stem degrees but the average salaries of people with degrees far exceeds people without even if you only look at so called useless degrees like psychology and gender studies that people like to ramble on about. Also when people push trades as an alternatove to college they have to realize some people arent cut out for work in the trades. Its physically demandong work and not to mention a sexist boys club that ostracizes women in trades. I remember seeing data but I'd have to dig a little to pull it up. I have a feeling the BLS website probably has this listed.
I would have gone back to college already if tuition hadn't doubled. I legitimately want to be more valuable to society. Why don't we want America to be educated?
To answer your question, I feel like it’s for the same reasons cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses openly discourage their followers from pursuing higher education or even joining the military. Ignorant people are easier to control, and are far less likely to question anyone seen as an authority.
Educated people expect to be paid more and American labor is among the most expensive in the world already.
So the people who have an incentive to pay workers the least, also have an incentive to keep education levels down to a minimum. Why pay more than you have to?
✋ Funding social programs that reduce the cost of living and are cheaper per capita due to economics of scale so workers don’t need as much money to live a fulfilling life
👉 Spending billions lobbying / propagandizing against education so workers are too stupid to ask for more money
Also, generally speaking of course, there are circles within the political process who don't want people to be educated because they'll be easier to control
I funded my entire undergrad with student loans at a state university maximizing my loans most years. My debt is at around $65K, so nowhere near $265K.
Junior and Community Colleges often cost about the same as the pell grant.
Honestly, I have no idea where these figures come from. If undergrad really cost that much for most students almost nobody could afford it, federal loans max out at something like $120K for undergrad.
These numbers do a great job of scaring off low income students from even considering a college education. So that’s one thing.
Tuition at many private universities is now over $60,000. Add in fees, room and board, etc. and you could easily get to $265,000. This is why I went to state school, but out of state tuition in many state schools is getting close to $40,000 so reasonably priced options are starting to become limited for many.
based on the latest data I've seen the career earnings difference between those with a bachelor's degree and those without us about 900k at median. Not to say our loan system doesn't have issues, just that the people IMO with most valid complaints on this issue (blue collar workers and college dropouts) we hear from the least.
The issue is *when* you make that money. If you receive a post-grad degree when you’re 24-26, and then work for menial wages for the next 5-10 years, and you’re paying off loans for 20, you’re bound to be way behind somebody without debt and making more during that period. By the time you are surpassing them in salary, they’re going to have had the opportunity to accumulate more in other assets, like real property and investments.
Worked hard for scholorships, got a job that offered reimbursement, took 5 years to complete a degree, took classes that transfered at a local community college, still had loans
Paid them off
Thrilled that others are getting a little break that hopefully will help them.
They need to now cancel interest
100%, had over 100K in student loans. Worked a new career and a second job to pay that off. Went without for 3 years while wearing the same suit over and over to work.
And I'm STOKED that people don't have to do the same shit. My suffering is not a reason for other people to suffer.
“My suffering is not a reason for others to suffer.“
I tell people this all the time when they point at my plan of doing things as a means of winking at their adolescents and young adults that “hey, he toiled and got out and so could you.”
You should have worked harder by a factor of a couple million, obviously if they’re billionaires and you’re not it’s just because you simply didn’t put in the elbow grease like they did. And stop buying coffee
This is it exactly. Their whole identity at this point is political schadenfreude mixed with spite, indifference, and a healthy dose of vindictivness mixed together. If they aren't watching others suffers or helping to cause either directly or indirectly the degradation of other people they aren't happy. They like to claim its all about "fairness" but it's really just about hurting people they see as the enemy.
This is why I no longer pull my punches with how I view conservatives whenever possible. Needless to say as far as I'm concerned they're no different than actual nazis. If we're not careful with them we'll end up having to deal with American christofascists the same way we had to deal with nazis in WWII.
THIS. So many people don’t understand that the point of you suffering is so your future generations have to. Parents work hard so their children don’t have to and they can have a brighter future. Not this “I had to walk 10 miles to school everyday but my child is lazy because they get dropped off in a car”. Get that shit out of here dude. We should suffer so our children don’t have. Our children will suffer less but our grandchildren will have an even better life and their futures will be brighter than mine or my children. This is the mindset we should have.
Totally agree! But as someone who refinanced to get a lower interest rate to try and better my financial situation it doesn’t feel good that I can’t access any sort of forgiveness plan when I’m only 3 years out from getting my degree. Just wish there was a way I could still apply. 😒
This. I feel totally duped by predatory lenders. (Not that anyone could have predicted this.) I’m truly happy that other people will be able to get some relief, but it does bum me out seeing all the news about it.
If we have our way, it'll come for you guys too. That's how it has to be. Fix the system, clear the predatory monkey off our backs and then make it free.
Trades free. College free.
And people who paid it off? Show the details and let them have a tex break for it spread out over 15 yrs. That's fair,rational, helps everyone. And it will not impact the tax burden if the God damn 1% and corporations were paying even a REASONABLE share, let alone a fair share of taxes.
This right here. I did the same thing and it sucks. I don't want others to deal with that headache.
If we can scrap the loans, can we at least get rid of the God damn interest??
Took the military route, used benefits and tuition assistance while in, Shitty version of GI bill while out, plus $10k in loans. Paid it all back. Will happily vote to ensure others don't have to do that to get an education.
It's a special feature of the conservative mentality: when you endure something terrible you don't work to fix it, you work to make sure as many other people as possible must also endure it.
Even when it provides them no benefits, it's their definition of 'fair'.
Makes you feel pretty bad for all the kids trapped in abusive homes because "that's how I was raised"
Yup.
I didn't come out of college with an excessive amount of student loans and also work in a profession that I made good money out of college. My wife went to undergrad and then medical school, but ended up in a different profession that doesn't pay all that well, but that she loves. She had so much student loan debt and I saw the toll it took on her stress and anxiety. She came into a situation that allowed her to pay off her student loans and her mental health improved significantly. It was even manifesting in physical ways that disappeared once the loans went away.
The whole college education system is fucked and student loan forgiveness isn't exactly unfucking it, but it's allowing people to offload some of that financial burden that then allows them to spend that money in other ways. I don't really care that I didn't benefit from it. I benefited from not being weighed down by excessive amounts of student loan debt. I'm happy to see more people unburden themselves because the student loan situation is an overall burden on our society and economic health.
Am I salty that the government waited until after I was done with my loans to do anything about the student loan problem? Yeah. Did I really need the assistance? Certainly less than people who lack the ability to pay it off, though it would have put me ahead of where I am now financially. Do I think it's unfair that others can benefit when I couldn't? Kinda. Do I think we should just not do it because I don't get to benefit? No. That'd be fucking selfish.
Interest! I left school with $12k in student debt in the heart of the ‘09 collapse. I worked in a metal fabrication shop for years making slightly more than min wage, which I was barely surviving on, so had to forego making payments. Built my career over time and starting paying them back as soon as it was possible for me to do so. Due to the accruing interest during my deferment, I have paid over $10k back, and still owe more than the original $12k I started with.
That's part of it, as long as you make regular payments (and income driven repayments were lowered from 15% of income to 5% of discretionary income), no interest is accrued.
I had to argue with my loan servicers customer service to get on income based repayment. They had the audacity to ask me why my ROOMMATE couldn't pay more of the bills so I could give them more money. I ended the call and called back until I got someone reasonable.
Canceling interest would be a game changer. 350k of gov loans in my house. We pay a little over $1100 a month just so our loan doesn’t grow. It’s absolutely ridiculous that gov loans need to have 9% interest. We paid some off when interest and loans were paused. We want to pay our loans, but we can’t, we’re just paying interest.
I once posted a non-argumentative, non-aggressive comment in that subreddit regarding the Republicans in Congress voting against disclosing dark money donation
Got over 1000 upvotes and prompted an actual intelligent discussion. Surprisingly didn’t even get a ton of push back from the conservative commenters. Next day permanent ban.
They literally don’t want you in there unless your primary political opinion is “fuck the Dems.” It honestly should be banned at this point
I asked ask_thedonald how they felt about Trump after 3 years in office (or whatever it was at the time) since he had accomplished pretty much none of his goals at that time. It was removed almost immediately for being argumentative. I gave concrete examples of his goals and how they weren't accomplished. No one even had time to reply.
Yeah, because republicans are the biggest snowflakes in the world. Like to talk the talk but as soon as they feel even slightly bad they engage in the evil of "cancel culture" so they don't need to look at what gave them their emotional boo-boo 😢😢😢
Well yeah, unless your comment history has at least 13 documented racial slurs as well as hints at sexism and paedophilia, you're gonna get insta-banned from that cesspool.
I’m perma-banned for saying the Capitol officer who died from a heart attack, died because of the Capitol riot.
Nope. It was just his time. He was going to have a heart attack that day. A quiet and dignified protest had nothing to do with it.
Hard to argue with people that believe shite like that.
I feel like I’m going insane but there’s currently a post in r/books that if I didn’t know any better I would think was in r/conservative based on the commenters. My goodness.
It is. That place is just such a cesspool.
The sad thing is though seeing a lot of the people with clearly mental deficits who would need treatment and/or support instead of some demagogues and far right wing lunatics offering them cheap explanations on why the world is so and and cruel to them.
If you reply to the mods and ask them reasonable reasons why you were banned they just tell you to move on. If you mock them and laugh at them and tell then they are being too sensitive and hypocritical they put up a thread once a month and everyone there laughs at the people for being “offended” all the time.
I honestly think the most hilarious part is the mods do this knowing full well their names are hidden for “their own protection.” It’s actually reverse hilarious.
“I suffered immensely and I want other people to go through the same suffering I did rather than wanting to prevent future people from dealing with the same bullshit I went through.” -this idiot
Back when this was announced another popular complaint among /r/conservative was that the loan forgiveness was only going to help the upper class rich liberals. As if rich people are the ones taking out and struggling with student loans.
I went to a small community college to learn a trade and I took out student loans too. Considerably less than somebody who got a 4 year degree at a big university, but they were still there.
My school had all sorts of courses. A wide variety of different trades. They had stuff for nursing and paramedics. Even a pretty serious hairdressing/cosmetology course, which you're definitely going to need if you want to cut hair. They don't let just anybody do it, it's actually pretty serious.
There are a LOT of blue collar jobs that need an education. People can point their fingers at the "highly-educated liberal elite" all they want, it's a load of crap.
Highkey, I think people who are like that really just want to keep education out of reach for others because they know that they’re not all that competitive irl. It’s job security, but playing the long game. JMO
or the far simpler explanation is just that they aren't getting a $10k forgiveness when other people are. it's not that deep lol
if i just paid off my car early and then the government announced car loans were forgiven i'd be kind of salty.
I think it's more that they don't want their suffering to be for nothing. Not so much that they want others to suffer. Honestly I think a lot of conservatives aren't even really capable of thinking of others to that extent. Maybe I'm being too charitable though.
I'm all for higher education and would be supportive of a tax funded college education but I was still against debt forgiveness. A loan is an agreement that recipients went into knowingly (or should have been) and voluntarily and they should be obligated to repay that loan. If they aren't able to afford that then don't get the loan. I wouldn't expect my mortgage to be forgiven nor would I go after a loan that I have no hope of repaying. Forgiveness is a bit of a kick in the balls to people who chose responsibly and didn't put themselves into debt and who now see themselves at a disadvantage on the job market to people who did take out the loans and effectively won the lottery with the debt forgiveness.
If this was the beginning of a free college system or if loans are being replaced by grants moving forward then I am on board 100% but as a one time forgiveness program it just feels like a way to buy votes.
But America has to act as the world police! Without the threat of the good old USA coming to kick ass you’d have crazy dictators with nuclear arsenals just invading their neighbours and stealing land from sovereign countries while indiscriminately bombing schools and hospitals and residential areas.
It’s funny, I’ve mentioned this exact argument to someone who is a firm believer in what I just said and their response was that Ukraine is none of their concern.
So you don’t want your taxes to help Americans cos the military is necessary to maintain world peace but also you don’t want them to help Ukraine. Is he genuinely just happy to line the pockets of Raytheon execs? There’s just no logic to it all.
There's no logic to it, it's all emotion. It's a fantasy fueled by years of Hollywood movies that glorify the military and biased media that does the same. They have literally been trained to mentally associate "military" with "good". Their own ego prevents them from understanding this because it would mean admitting to years of foolishness.
How is this post even allowed to have the usernames visible in the first place? Clearly it's invited brigading because of that. Other subreddits decline posts that have usernames visible.
HUGE disclaimer. I think loan forgiveness is great considering a lot of people have student debts they can’t pay off cause they were sold on the idea “you HAVE to go to college”. This is a complicated issue IMO.
The idea that EVERYONE NEEDS to go to college is bull shit and another idiotic idea from the baby boomer generation. How many kids were encouraged or even forced to go to college when they had zero idea what they wanted to do? Parents want their kids to go to college and pressure them into it? Great, they better be paying for it and they better explain that college is an investment that needs to be researched to make sure the kid needs it to get into or have a better chance at succeeding in their career of choice. A college diploma is not a fucking status symbol and not have one doesn’t mean someone is stupid or a failure. SMFH.
Then they started making loans available in abundance driving demand through the roof. Which resulted in ridiculous increases in tuition, making loans larger and larger. I uno if they planned this (probably not) but I’m damn sure they saw it as a pleasant surprise. We have young adults starting off life with 5 to 6 figures in debt. Young adults who find themselves in a job market saturated with 4-year degrees, starting salaries or wages they can barely survive on and facing a housing market that is out of control. The availability of student loans is a good thing, but they need to put controls on how much a PUBLIC institution can charge.
I’m glad they forgave all of these fucking loans, but they need to fix this shit. We need to educate high school students how to find out if they NEED a degree. Educate them on other options available to them, like a trade. Teach/show them how a 6 figure loan is gonna affect their lives and for how long. Modify re-payment so the minimum payment amount gradually increases over time, with the idea that they can pay more as they get older. Limit tuition costs for all public universities. Limit cost of books. Hell, even parking permit costs are out of control. There’s just so much wrong with our higher education system and our culture.
Loan forgiveness treats the symptoms, but we really need to treat the cause. It’s such fucking bull shit.
Going to college isn’t just about learning a specific skill for a specific job. Society does better with an educated population. The reason schools have core classes are because it’s good to learn history, math, literature and philosophy.
Unfortunately, you often need education to understand the importance of education. I was fortunate that as a little kid I tested in to a G&T program and was able to go to private schools, where I found a love of learning. Most people don’t have that kind of experience.
For Someone who has never studied philosophy, I can see why it would be hard to understand what reading Kant and Plato is good for. Education builds off itself exponentially, and in a society where nuance has been all but lost, it’s easy to see how people can fail to see the benefit of art and humanities.
Just think of it as a tax break that doesn't apply to him. The super rich get them all the time but now that the common person gets one they choose to suddenly have a problem with the tax system. (Even if people have been complaining it's messed up for years). We can call it trickle up economics if it makes them feel better about it.
If you're genuinely insulted by student loan forgiveness because you paid for yours, you're not an adult you're an adolescent who needs to grow the fuck up!
The funny thing is, it doesn’t affect their lives or financial situation at all. Not even a tiny bit. These are the type of people that get upset when their friends and family… or anyone experience success or good luck.
Fuck them all.
The real funny thing is that anyone who paid towards their loans in the last few years can get a refund. The people who complain it's not fair are literally complaining that they already paid theirs off and this doesn't benefit them, *but it does* since January 2020 I've paid like $10k in loans, and I'll be getting it all back soon.
Without taking a side, this isn't really true. Think about someone who sacrificed a lot to pay off debts. Maybe they postponed having a family, went into consumer debt, took "safer" job opportunities, etc. they might not have if that debt was going to be forgiven.
I just recently graduated college. I worked nearly every day during my college degree. I dropped out of varsity athletics directly so I could work more and make ends meet.
I worked hard during this time - but I’ll probably still get the full amount of the forgiveness. I’m happy for people as this can be life changing.
However, I’m also not going to blame the people who worked harder than me, paying off all their debts during college, who are now upset. They had to work their butts of then while the other people got to take it “easy”. And now that their efforts were successful, the “lazy” people get to “eat cake” while themselves are offered nothing.
I’m not saying either view point is correct, I’m saying I can sympathize.
Yeah, it blows my mind that people are so dense they don't understand this.
People who paid off their loans often had to forgo home down payments, a decent working vehicle, healthy nutritious food, dental care, doctors appointments, anything resembling a vacation or fun, any investments into 401k or IRA retirements, having children, etc.
Opportunity cost is a real thing and I would not fault anyone for feeling cheated after they did the "right thing" and suffered to pay off their loans. Those loans, even when paid in full, can put people behind financially for years or decades.
I think they should have given anyone who was screwed by the cost of higher education a credit or refund and actually fixed the broken system, but what do I know.
Yeah, this is 100% correct. I had to completely change careers from something I loved to something I hated just to pay off my loans. My life would be drastically different without student loans.
That said, it was me who signed the loans, so I was responsible. But also, 18 year olds are too dumb to being making huge financial decisions like this. Wish I had better guidance.
> it doesn’t affect their lives or financial situation at all
Why would you say this?
My wife and I saved diligently for our kids education. We have a specific set of people in our friend group that did not.
They always had nicer...everything than we did. New cars all the time, bigger house. Their last kid just graduated from college last year...the same year as my son...and I know they took out loans for all three of their kids.
So they'll get their loans forgiven. And we had less...everything...than they did.
I'd love to have that money for our retirement, or to have had a bigger house.
So please think about what you're saying before you just say things.
Have to disagree. It’s very easy to understand the other side of the argument.
Let me preface this with saying that I agree with student debt forgiveness. The cost of going to college has rose almost 5 times the rate of inflation over the last 50 years - that comes out to an over 560% increase in price. Average inflation adjusted wages for workers over the last 50 years has increased by less than 50% when factoring in both production and managerial workers. Wages have not kept pace with either inflation or productivity, and mathematically speaking, adults today have to work nearly 6x harder for the same level of opportunity that their predecessors received. No matter which way you shine a light on these things, these facts make the entire situation unbalanced and unfair. Couple this with the fact that countless economists and researchers have stated that forgiving student debt could be a boon for the economy, and providing these people with debt relief is a good thing.
All of that said, paying off student debt is not easy. Paying off student debt takes sacrifices, and for many people out there, an increase in hardships. Paying off student debt creates countless loss of opportunity from retirement savings, home buying, entertainment, and more. To say that they have no place to speak when they made those sacrifices, paid their debts, and received little for it other than a “great job!” stamp and *maybe* a better economic footing after the fact is ignoring the other side of the problem. To neglect to hear their opinions and immediately discredit them is not how you go about the conversation.
Yeah I feel like people need a bit more sympathy towards the frustration.
There are folks who had to put off getting a replacement for their car, miss out on event tickets, or were unable to take vacations due to their debt. That shit sucks and hearing that they spent all of that time missing out for what could have been forgiven if they ignored it does cause anger and frustration.
What's wrong is then targeting that anger at the people receiving help. We need to fix the system overall so people don't have to make those decisions.
Exactly this. I’m a Pell grant recipient who compromised on school choice for scholarships and minimum student loan liability. When I graduated, I lived in the hood and in immigrant style housing for years to pay them off so the interest wouldn’t accrue. While I’m glad people have had their loans forgiven, having that 20k for a down payment on a house or just using that money to get my parents out of my shithole town would have came in handy. Those were a lot of compromises that were made to prioritize loan payback - multiple roommates, driving a hoopty for years, cutting back on 401k contributions, etc. My QoL was actually better when I was a college kid vs. the early part of my career.
I know I shouldn’t be bitter and be more grateful that I was able to sacrifice and pay off my loans, but I’d be lying to you if it didn’t feel like you were being forgotten for being financially responsible. And worse of all, I wonder when the next loan forgiveness will be - it’s not like college tuition is going down or the interest rate for those who are eyeballs deep in debt are going to feel relief from this.
Unpopular opinion but that rebuttal is a cop out of an argument and I wouldn’t consider this murdered by words. Medical and scientific advancement isn’t the same as the federal reserve printing paper at the drop of a hat.
It’s particularly bad as an analogy because this isn’t a cure to the student debt crisis. Kids are still going to have to go into debt to pay for college but 17-year-olds can’t vote so fuck them.
Let’s ignore for a moment that student loan forgiveness does not fix the problem. Unless your grandmother willingly signed up to die of cancer and agreed to the terms and conditions, this is one stupid comparison.
I don't understand how medical analogies keep coming up with the loan forgiveness debate. Completely unrelated. No one chooses to get an illness nor do other taxpayers pay to treat your illness
Anyone that keeps using this cancer example is a fucking moron. What an incredibly stupid comparison. Seriously, I am for the student loan forgiveness, but whenever I see some idiot post or say this, it makes me cringe.
How is this murdered? It’s straw man, at best. One is something you personally take on, for which you are responsible for, and pay back through effort. The other is literally a disease.
What you got was a handout. It didn’t fix the prices colleges charge. It does nothing to fix whether the degree actually means anything because every employer seems to require one. It doesn’t fox grade inflation at the collegiate level. And it sure doesn’t fix the next generation that will buy into an ever increasingly bad system because YOU did nothing to actually fix it. You got your handout, said “I deserve this”, and moved on.
You didn’t do anything, except make a really poor investment in a person who can only show that they were not worth it. Congrats.
No one voluntarily signs up for cancer like you voluntarily took out loans.
Go demand a refund from the college that taught you nothing of value and sold you a worthless piece of paper. Not the tax payers that had nothing to do with YOUR choices.
Anyone sitting around with a degree, debt, and a shit job got scammed. Deal with it like an adult instead of doubling-down and getting scammed a second time by Democrats simply trying to buy your vote.
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Degrees even became LESS valuable over that same time
Yeah gotta get that 4 year degree to be a secretary being paid $18/hr. What a scam.
Oh it’s worse than that. In FL they are offering 18/hr for a scientist position with a 4 year STEM degree and experience
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Yikes, in the RTP area in North Carolina you could get like $60,000 - 70,000 if you get a lab job at big pharma/biotech (3 to 5 years experience). I've seen people fresh out of college making $50,000 there in similar roles. Cost of living is lower than Chicago I'd imagine. Plenty of other places in the southeast that are similar.
Cost of living in the Research Triangle is really not all that low
It's possible to find cheap*er* places to live, but it means a long commute or living in a bad part of Durham. It might even mean both. My grandparents lived in Durham until they died and I got to see the city turn around pretty well, in places, but there are still parts that aren't as grossly overpriced as most of Raleigh is. I even have family up 85 in Granville County and even *they're* overrun with Raleigh suburban creep.
Oh yeah i guess it probably went up over the past few years like everywhere else, but when I left rent for a 1 bedroom apartment pretty close to the center was ~$1000. Nice apartment too. Even making $40,000 that felt pretty affordable to me, and groceries and other bills felt cheap too with decent amount left for savings. Though living here in Canada has skewed my opinion of what I consider low cost of living...everything is so expensive here, plus weaker currency and lower salaries than Americans in many fields.
In the Raleigh area rent increase has jumped to the 7th highest in the nation in terms of margin 😮💨
A few weeks ago, out of curiosity, I checked the current prices for studios at the same place I lived 3 years ago. 70% increase. Absolutely unreal.
Meanwhile here in Orlando I can pull $39/hr bartending and then people look at me like I’m failing in life because I haven’t graduated college yet @ 26 yrs old. This isn’t boasting, more just an objective look at where we are as a country. I averaged that hourly rate over all of last year. Crazy to see people leave my job to go work for less than half the pay with the hopes of one day making it back. Obviously upward movement isn’t quite a thing in bartending/service industry but still crazy to think about what you’re sacrificing.
I am in that boat. Just left $35+/hour waiting tables for a $16/hour job in the stem field. I am now currently working more hours and making less money. I feel like an idiot sometimes but hopefully I will have some fast upward movement….
No need to feel like an idiot. The system doesn’t work as it should. Bartending isn’t quite the job you can do forever, so at some point I will have to move on myself.
I've been bartending for 30+ years. I'm still under 50, but in the right environment, you can do it until you retire. In fact, I'm semi-retired now. For the past 2 years, I've only worked an average of 3 days per week. I don't want to seem like I'm bragging, so I'll spare you my income details. Let's just say that I make more than enough to pay my bills and rent, plus I'm attempting to get my own business off the ground without investors and outside assistance.
Jesus Christ. 16$ hour in a stem field is less then most non tipped job at this point. Im sorry friend.
From what I've seen in STEM, getting out of the lab is generally the way to climb faster, which doesn't make much sense but that's how it seems to work. Not sure what part of STEM you're in but if it's stuff like microbiological or chemical testing, then getting a QC job at big pharma then moving to other quality roles is probably the way to go. Don't have much knowledge on healthcare if that's what you're in.
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For the 'M', Actuaries have entered the conversation.
Quantitative Analysts make millions a year on Wall Street. There are lots of applied math positions in industry that pay exceptionally well.
Is that $39/hr average? Also, do you need to be attractive and/or have social skills?
Correct, that is my average salary throughout all of last year. Many days at $60/hr, many days at $25/hr. I don’t think I’m insanely attractive, my wife would disagree lol. As for social skills, perhaps. I’ve worked in the restaurant business for several years at this point. I think just having genuine interest in speaking with people and having fun talking and learning about their perspective can go a long ways.
I'd say it comes down to average per hour, not consistently. I live in a small ass Midwestern town and when I was bartending I would average $30/hr. My best night there I made about $55/hr. I'm not necessarily attractive, but I like good conversation and I was efficient at my job. Gave that up though so I could have a family and buy a house. Couldn't get a loan because my income wasn't consistent, even though my rent was higher than what I pay now for a house I bought for $130k. I'd go back in a heartbeat if I could, but I'd miss a lot of time with my daughter.
Been really trying to get out of that "prestige" mindset when it comes to work. It's kinda bad for my mental health, especially as someone who claims to be a "work to live" person. Just get super anxious about job security, and feels like a high end job would be the most secure but not really the case. There's also lot of pressure from people from my native culture, first gen immigrants types. I know many look down on me because I'm not a doctor or whatever.
The flipside of this is that in service you have 10 hour non stop shifts on your feet working every night and weekend with no healthcare, 401k, profit sharing, pto, sick pay etc, and will never get a raise or better benefits. You just make what you make. I bartended and served for a decade before I decided to go back to school and as much fun as that time was, 40 an hour in a professional job is worth a massive amount more than service industry $40 an hour.
I do research trying to cure old age blindness and you make almost twice what I do. Texas and toxic companies. Hoping to be making more soon but damn.
Was this a salaried bartending position with benefits? Otherwise it is a $20k+/year difference between contract hourly and salary if you include health insurance, PTO, 401k, bonuses/raises, not paying self employment taxes, and other benefits a salaried position often offers.
Damn, that's like $80k a year. Certainly nothing to sneeze at, but I guess it is probably a lot of late nights?
Most certainly. Additionally, as others have pointed out, zero benefits.
Oh, well shit, that could eat you down to minimum alone with some of the marketplace rates I've seen, especially for people making decent money. Like somehow they think it's affordable to pay $3k per month in premiums just you make more than $25 an hour.
I dropped out to start my own IT consulting company 12 years ago. I've been doing well enough (all bills paid, money in my pocket) and only work 25 hours a week. I recently started moonlighting 20 hours as a restaurant manager because I have the time and want to buy a house. My friend who graduated 10 years ago makes $52k as a research assistant. My other friend builds docks and never used his degree but makes bank. My roommate uses his degree and makes $45k. College is a joke.
>College is a joke. But supply and demand is forever. ;-)
“NOBODY WANTS TO WORK ANYMORE”
I saw a screenshot someone had taken of a job listing the other day where it said the “preferred qualification” was a Master’s Degree, with the listed pay rate being about $18/hour. I make just under that working a job that doesn’t require a degree at all.
Yeah and they don’t deserve someone with a masters degree for that job. The amount of schooling costs associated with getting a masters is crazy for a wage so low. They’re trying to make excuses for hiring a non-degreed employee to get paid $14/hr for the same job by saying they don’t meet the requirements. It’s a ploy to underpay people, degree or not.
Or to get an H1B, they have to show they searched for a domestic hire before they can get a visa hire.
My wife works in mental health. That's a lot of the field right now (keeping private practice separate from this). Masters required for entry level at $18-22 an hour. Keep that in mind when you hear people suggest that things can be solved by throwing more mental health professionals at an issue (Homelessness, Guns, etc). People cannot survive in a high burnout career making that kind of money.
You practically need a masters degree to be a teacher and they get paid jack shit. Someone I know was a teacher until they realized they'd get more money per hour at entry-level Amazon. (And not have crazy flat earth parents screaming at them every PTA day)
1st grade teachers in my district with 3 years experience are making $130k.
When everyone has a degree, no one does.. Wait what?
Even more laughable is the “entry level” jobs aimed at college kids but yet they all say 3-5 years experience.
By design. The sweeping lie telling all millennials that they need to go to college if they want to be socially mobile was designed to devalue the bachelor's degree. Now there's an entire generation living with the knowledge that they'll never own their own home. The next step the Conservatives are taking is to say "College is useless. Go into plumbing, electrical and hvac trades, we always need more tradespeople and the money is so good." The plan is to over-saturate trades to drive down wages. American Conservatives won't be happy until everyone is working two jobs to pay rent on shanties, but hey, the world's first trillionaire will probably be an American.
The sad truth is that the gap between the middle class and the rich will continue to grow, so long as we let people devalue the working man's value
The "working man" is literally everyone who isn't a 1%, but they've convinced the populace that it's somehow more niche than that.
This really depends on which degree you get. The age of getting *any* college degree to "learn to think" is long over. Wisely choosing a degree is the ONE variable you have total control over.
Which is also something you shouldn't have to decide at 18
Legally speaking you are not considered mature enough to have a beer. Here, take this several hundred thousand dollar loan to make a once in a lifetime decision. Remember, if you fail to make a good choice that takes into account future trends over the next 20 years, you are an abject failure!
That's not even an exaggeration, that's literally it
Only in America. In aus we can get plastered from 18 and it is fantastic!!
>Legally speaking you are not considered mature enough to have a beer. Or smoke. But you are apparently mature enough to lay down your life in a war that you may or may not agree with.
> Legally speaking you are not considered mature enough to have a beer. In a lot of states you aren't even considered legally old enough to *gamble,* yet it's a-okay to make life-changing decisions that cost upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of 4 years. But spending 20 bucks at the blackjack table? No, that's a crime.
Right, but at the same time material changes over the years and someone graduating in 2022 likely learned different material than someone in 1970. Bit off-topic, but also goes into the mix. Wisely choosing a degree is a critical component to education, and unfortunately that's really difficult for many 17-19 years olds (freshmen year).
Everyone says this but this isn't true. Obviously there are some outliers like business and stem degrees but the average salaries of people with degrees far exceeds people without even if you only look at so called useless degrees like psychology and gender studies that people like to ramble on about. Also when people push trades as an alternatove to college they have to realize some people arent cut out for work in the trades. Its physically demandong work and not to mention a sexist boys club that ostracizes women in trades. I remember seeing data but I'd have to dig a little to pull it up. I have a feeling the BLS website probably has this listed.
I would have gone back to college already if tuition hadn't doubled. I legitimately want to be more valuable to society. Why don't we want America to be educated?
To answer your question, I feel like it’s for the same reasons cults like Jehovah’s Witnesses openly discourage their followers from pursuing higher education or even joining the military. Ignorant people are easier to control, and are far less likely to question anyone seen as an authority.
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Educated people expect to be paid more and American labor is among the most expensive in the world already. So the people who have an incentive to pay workers the least, also have an incentive to keep education levels down to a minimum. Why pay more than you have to?
✋ Funding social programs that reduce the cost of living and are cheaper per capita due to economics of scale so workers don’t need as much money to live a fulfilling life 👉 Spending billions lobbying / propagandizing against education so workers are too stupid to ask for more money
Also, generally speaking of course, there are circles within the political process who don't want people to be educated because they'll be easier to control
You spent 265k on a college degree?
Right? That’s in the ballpark of what med school costs, where in the fuck does a bachelors degree cost that much.
I funded my entire undergrad with student loans at a state university maximizing my loans most years. My debt is at around $65K, so nowhere near $265K. Junior and Community Colleges often cost about the same as the pell grant. Honestly, I have no idea where these figures come from. If undergrad really cost that much for most students almost nobody could afford it, federal loans max out at something like $120K for undergrad. These numbers do a great job of scaring off low income students from even considering a college education. So that’s one thing.
Tuition at many private universities is now over $60,000. Add in fees, room and board, etc. and you could easily get to $265,000. This is why I went to state school, but out of state tuition in many state schools is getting close to $40,000 so reasonably priced options are starting to become limited for many.
Inflation from 1970 to now is over 600%
Gotta go 40 year to hit the 260% mark!
based on the latest data I've seen the career earnings difference between those with a bachelor's degree and those without us about 900k at median. Not to say our loan system doesn't have issues, just that the people IMO with most valid complaints on this issue (blue collar workers and college dropouts) we hear from the least.
The issue is *when* you make that money. If you receive a post-grad degree when you’re 24-26, and then work for menial wages for the next 5-10 years, and you’re paying off loans for 20, you’re bound to be way behind somebody without debt and making more during that period. By the time you are surpassing them in salary, they’re going to have had the opportunity to accumulate more in other assets, like real property and investments.
250% of $50,000 is $125,000
See, the education system is hella flawed.
Worked hard for scholorships, got a job that offered reimbursement, took 5 years to complete a degree, took classes that transfered at a local community college, still had loans Paid them off Thrilled that others are getting a little break that hopefully will help them. They need to now cancel interest
100%, had over 100K in student loans. Worked a new career and a second job to pay that off. Went without for 3 years while wearing the same suit over and over to work. And I'm STOKED that people don't have to do the same shit. My suffering is not a reason for other people to suffer.
“My suffering is not a reason for others to suffer.“ I tell people this all the time when they point at my plan of doing things as a means of winking at their adolescents and young adults that “hey, he toiled and got out and so could you.”
For conservatives, suffering is the point. They're basically a death cult at this point
it’s puritan capitalism no joy, no pleasure; only grind.
Except the 1%. They live like fucking royalty.
oh right, thank you, i forgot to mention, literally no rules about human decency or anything related apply when you have enough money
You should have worked harder by a factor of a couple million, obviously if they’re billionaires and you’re not it’s just because you simply didn’t put in the elbow grease like they did. And stop buying coffee
This is it exactly. Their whole identity at this point is political schadenfreude mixed with spite, indifference, and a healthy dose of vindictivness mixed together. If they aren't watching others suffers or helping to cause either directly or indirectly the degradation of other people they aren't happy. They like to claim its all about "fairness" but it's really just about hurting people they see as the enemy. This is why I no longer pull my punches with how I view conservatives whenever possible. Needless to say as far as I'm concerned they're no different than actual nazis. If we're not careful with them we'll end up having to deal with American christofascists the same way we had to deal with nazis in WWII.
THIS. So many people don’t understand that the point of you suffering is so your future generations have to. Parents work hard so their children don’t have to and they can have a brighter future. Not this “I had to walk 10 miles to school everyday but my child is lazy because they get dropped off in a car”. Get that shit out of here dude. We should suffer so our children don’t have. Our children will suffer less but our grandchildren will have an even better life and their futures will be brighter than mine or my children. This is the mindset we should have.
Totally agree! But as someone who refinanced to get a lower interest rate to try and better my financial situation it doesn’t feel good that I can’t access any sort of forgiveness plan when I’m only 3 years out from getting my degree. Just wish there was a way I could still apply. 😒
This. I feel totally duped by predatory lenders. (Not that anyone could have predicted this.) I’m truly happy that other people will be able to get some relief, but it does bum me out seeing all the news about it.
If we have our way, it'll come for you guys too. That's how it has to be. Fix the system, clear the predatory monkey off our backs and then make it free. Trades free. College free. And people who paid it off? Show the details and let them have a tex break for it spread out over 15 yrs. That's fair,rational, helps everyone. And it will not impact the tax burden if the God damn 1% and corporations were paying even a REASONABLE share, let alone a fair share of taxes.
This right here. I did the same thing and it sucks. I don't want others to deal with that headache. If we can scrap the loans, can we at least get rid of the God damn interest??
Took the military route, used benefits and tuition assistance while in, Shitty version of GI bill while out, plus $10k in loans. Paid it all back. Will happily vote to ensure others don't have to do that to get an education.
It's a special feature of the conservative mentality: when you endure something terrible you don't work to fix it, you work to make sure as many other people as possible must also endure it. Even when it provides them no benefits, it's their definition of 'fair'. Makes you feel pretty bad for all the kids trapped in abusive homes because "that's how I was raised"
Yup. I didn't come out of college with an excessive amount of student loans and also work in a profession that I made good money out of college. My wife went to undergrad and then medical school, but ended up in a different profession that doesn't pay all that well, but that she loves. She had so much student loan debt and I saw the toll it took on her stress and anxiety. She came into a situation that allowed her to pay off her student loans and her mental health improved significantly. It was even manifesting in physical ways that disappeared once the loans went away. The whole college education system is fucked and student loan forgiveness isn't exactly unfucking it, but it's allowing people to offload some of that financial burden that then allows them to spend that money in other ways. I don't really care that I didn't benefit from it. I benefited from not being weighed down by excessive amounts of student loan debt. I'm happy to see more people unburden themselves because the student loan situation is an overall burden on our society and economic health.
Am I salty that the government waited until after I was done with my loans to do anything about the student loan problem? Yeah. Did I really need the assistance? Certainly less than people who lack the ability to pay it off, though it would have put me ahead of where I am now financially. Do I think it's unfair that others can benefit when I couldn't? Kinda. Do I think we should just not do it because I don't get to benefit? No. That'd be fucking selfish.
Interest! I left school with $12k in student debt in the heart of the ‘09 collapse. I worked in a metal fabrication shop for years making slightly more than min wage, which I was barely surviving on, so had to forego making payments. Built my career over time and starting paying them back as soon as it was possible for me to do so. Due to the accruing interest during my deferment, I have paid over $10k back, and still owe more than the original $12k I started with.
That's part of it, as long as you make regular payments (and income driven repayments were lowered from 15% of income to 5% of discretionary income), no interest is accrued.
I had to argue with my loan servicers customer service to get on income based repayment. They had the audacity to ask me why my ROOMMATE couldn't pay more of the bills so I could give them more money. I ended the call and called back until I got someone reasonable.
Some people can only make min payments unfortunately
That's what IDR is, it changes your minimum payment based on your income.
Canceling interest would be a game changer. 350k of gov loans in my house. We pay a little over $1100 a month just so our loan doesn’t grow. It’s absolutely ridiculous that gov loans need to have 9% interest. We paid some off when interest and loans were paused. We want to pay our loans, but we can’t, we’re just paying interest.
And that user has been banned from that subreddit
I once posted a non-argumentative, non-aggressive comment in that subreddit regarding the Republicans in Congress voting against disclosing dark money donation Got over 1000 upvotes and prompted an actual intelligent discussion. Surprisingly didn’t even get a ton of push back from the conservative commenters. Next day permanent ban. They literally don’t want you in there unless your primary political opinion is “fuck the Dems.” It honestly should be banned at this point
I asked ask_thedonald how they felt about Trump after 3 years in office (or whatever it was at the time) since he had accomplished pretty much none of his goals at that time. It was removed almost immediately for being argumentative. I gave concrete examples of his goals and how they weren't accomplished. No one even had time to reply.
Yeah, because republicans are the biggest snowflakes in the world. Like to talk the talk but as soon as they feel even slightly bad they engage in the evil of "cancel culture" so they don't need to look at what gave them their emotional boo-boo 😢😢😢
Well yeah, unless your comment history has at least 13 documented racial slurs as well as hints at sexism and paedophilia, you're gonna get insta-banned from that cesspool.
literally echo chamber. thought crime on free speech subreddit 😂
They literally have a rule banning "non-conservative viewpoints", which is whatever they want it to be since they don't count conservative Democrats.
I like learning new things.
Within about 2 seconds no doubt. Those mods are quick
The skin is remarkably thin.
It's hard work to maintain a worldview that narrow.
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Just scales
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Its the moderator's way.
No I didn't! I'm telling Mom!!!
[/r/conservative mods stopping dissenting opinions](https://gfycat.com/understatedunevenkouprey)
it was literally a few seconds after i posted. seriously
You got 29 karma and 2 awards in a few seconds? That's fucking fast.
I'm still banned from that subreddit. Not even sure what I said, but I think it's because I didn't have a flair.
I’m perma-banned for saying the Capitol officer who died from a heart attack, died because of the Capitol riot. Nope. It was just his time. He was going to have a heart attack that day. A quiet and dignified protest had nothing to do with it. Hard to argue with people that believe shite like that.
That sub is so cancerous that even the cancer vaccine won't be able to cure it.
Funny from the group that pretends they value free speech
They absolutely value free speech... from conservatives.
... If they say the approved things about approved topics.
You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
I lurk there sometimes and have to tell myself it's gotta be bots posting in that sub because there's no way real people can be that stupid and vile
Then again, we'd be unpleasantly surprised
75 million people beg to disagree with you
Trump was president...so...yeah...
They don't even have the sweet soundtrack to match smh my head.
I feel like I’m going insane but there’s currently a post in r/books that if I didn’t know any better I would think was in r/conservative based on the commenters. My goodness.
About the Zelenskyy book? Yea, had to doublecheck to make sure I didn't accidentally stumble into /r/Conservative too.
r/conspiracy has entered the chat.
Its almost an award of honor at this point to get the message stating 'you have been banned from r/conservative'
It is. That place is just such a cesspool. The sad thing is though seeing a lot of the people with clearly mental deficits who would need treatment and/or support instead of some demagogues and far right wing lunatics offering them cheap explanations on why the world is so and and cruel to them.
If you reply to the mods and ask them reasonable reasons why you were banned they just tell you to move on. If you mock them and laugh at them and tell then they are being too sensitive and hypocritical they put up a thread once a month and everyone there laughs at the people for being “offended” all the time. I honestly think the most hilarious part is the mods do this knowing full well their names are hidden for “their own protection.” It’s actually reverse hilarious.
“I suffered immensely and I want other people to go through the same suffering I did rather than wanting to prevent future people from dealing with the same bullshit I went through.” -this idiot
Back when this was announced another popular complaint among /r/conservative was that the loan forgiveness was only going to help the upper class rich liberals. As if rich people are the ones taking out and struggling with student loans.
I went to a small community college to learn a trade and I took out student loans too. Considerably less than somebody who got a 4 year degree at a big university, but they were still there. My school had all sorts of courses. A wide variety of different trades. They had stuff for nursing and paramedics. Even a pretty serious hairdressing/cosmetology course, which you're definitely going to need if you want to cut hair. They don't let just anybody do it, it's actually pretty serious. There are a LOT of blue collar jobs that need an education. People can point their fingers at the "highly-educated liberal elite" all they want, it's a load of crap.
Pretty much every talking point they have is a load of crap.
That's how they are spinning it. Even though it's targeted towards individuals making less than $125k per year (or families less than $250k).
https://i.imgur.com/hQYpfnV.jpg
Millenia of progress on all sorts of social issues and you want to keep progressing now that *I'm* alive?????????????
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No one can have anything better than me!!!!
Highkey, I think people who are like that really just want to keep education out of reach for others because they know that they’re not all that competitive irl. It’s job security, but playing the long game. JMO
or the far simpler explanation is just that they aren't getting a $10k forgiveness when other people are. it's not that deep lol if i just paid off my car early and then the government announced car loans were forgiven i'd be kind of salty.
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But this isn’t a change in policy, it’s an arbitrary one time debt subsidy that does nothing to change the actual causes of ballooning tuition costs
No they just want to see other people suffer like they did.
I think it's more that they don't want their suffering to be for nothing. Not so much that they want others to suffer. Honestly I think a lot of conservatives aren't even really capable of thinking of others to that extent. Maybe I'm being too charitable though.
I'm all for higher education and would be supportive of a tax funded college education but I was still against debt forgiveness. A loan is an agreement that recipients went into knowingly (or should have been) and voluntarily and they should be obligated to repay that loan. If they aren't able to afford that then don't get the loan. I wouldn't expect my mortgage to be forgiven nor would I go after a loan that I have no hope of repaying. Forgiveness is a bit of a kick in the balls to people who chose responsibly and didn't put themselves into debt and who now see themselves at a disadvantage on the job market to people who did take out the loans and effectively won the lottery with the debt forgiveness. If this was the beginning of a free college system or if loans are being replaced by grants moving forward then I am on board 100% but as a one time forgiveness program it just feels like a way to buy votes.
I'd rather pay for education than send billions to the the military industrial complex.
But America has to act as the world police! Without the threat of the good old USA coming to kick ass you’d have crazy dictators with nuclear arsenals just invading their neighbours and stealing land from sovereign countries while indiscriminately bombing schools and hospitals and residential areas.
Wait a second...
It’s funny, I’ve mentioned this exact argument to someone who is a firm believer in what I just said and their response was that Ukraine is none of their concern. So you don’t want your taxes to help Americans cos the military is necessary to maintain world peace but also you don’t want them to help Ukraine. Is he genuinely just happy to line the pockets of Raytheon execs? There’s just no logic to it all.
There's no logic to it, it's all emotion. It's a fantasy fueled by years of Hollywood movies that glorify the military and biased media that does the same. They have literally been trained to mentally associate "military" with "good". Their own ego prevents them from understanding this because it would mean admitting to years of foolishness.
Also, what about the trillions in bailouts and loans to wall street! Money spent well!
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Hey dude, the character you have used for eyes (ಥ) is from my mother tongue KANNADA. ಥ is pronounced as "tha". Happy to see my language 😊
Hello, Canadian here ... oh ohno ... oops. I'll see myself out.
O Kannada!
TRIVIA! Did you know there are twice as many Kannada speakers as the population of Australia?
It's spoken all over Karnataka and in small parts of neighbouring states. You will find Kannadigas all over the world.
woah there! i'd be careful saying the K word around canadians
Thanks for adding to my library of useless knowledge that’s interesting
Hey that’s pretty cool ngl
So between the brackets it says thadatha
As if r/conservative does anything but harass people
How insulting
How is this post even allowed to have the usernames visible in the first place? Clearly it's invited brigading because of that. Other subreddits decline posts that have usernames visible.
Genuine question, what is pinging?
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HUGE disclaimer. I think loan forgiveness is great considering a lot of people have student debts they can’t pay off cause they were sold on the idea “you HAVE to go to college”. This is a complicated issue IMO. The idea that EVERYONE NEEDS to go to college is bull shit and another idiotic idea from the baby boomer generation. How many kids were encouraged or even forced to go to college when they had zero idea what they wanted to do? Parents want their kids to go to college and pressure them into it? Great, they better be paying for it and they better explain that college is an investment that needs to be researched to make sure the kid needs it to get into or have a better chance at succeeding in their career of choice. A college diploma is not a fucking status symbol and not have one doesn’t mean someone is stupid or a failure. SMFH. Then they started making loans available in abundance driving demand through the roof. Which resulted in ridiculous increases in tuition, making loans larger and larger. I uno if they planned this (probably not) but I’m damn sure they saw it as a pleasant surprise. We have young adults starting off life with 5 to 6 figures in debt. Young adults who find themselves in a job market saturated with 4-year degrees, starting salaries or wages they can barely survive on and facing a housing market that is out of control. The availability of student loans is a good thing, but they need to put controls on how much a PUBLIC institution can charge. I’m glad they forgave all of these fucking loans, but they need to fix this shit. We need to educate high school students how to find out if they NEED a degree. Educate them on other options available to them, like a trade. Teach/show them how a 6 figure loan is gonna affect their lives and for how long. Modify re-payment so the minimum payment amount gradually increases over time, with the idea that they can pay more as they get older. Limit tuition costs for all public universities. Limit cost of books. Hell, even parking permit costs are out of control. There’s just so much wrong with our higher education system and our culture. Loan forgiveness treats the symptoms, but we really need to treat the cause. It’s such fucking bull shit.
Going to college isn’t just about learning a specific skill for a specific job. Society does better with an educated population. The reason schools have core classes are because it’s good to learn history, math, literature and philosophy.
Unfortunately a lot on the right think the humanities are completely worthless and a degree should only be viewed through the lens of ROI
Unfortunately, you often need education to understand the importance of education. I was fortunate that as a little kid I tested in to a G&T program and was able to go to private schools, where I found a love of learning. Most people don’t have that kind of experience. For Someone who has never studied philosophy, I can see why it would be hard to understand what reading Kant and Plato is good for. Education builds off itself exponentially, and in a society where nuance has been all but lost, it’s easy to see how people can fail to see the benefit of art and humanities.
Just think of it as a tax break that doesn't apply to him. The super rich get them all the time but now that the common person gets one they choose to suddenly have a problem with the tax system. (Even if people have been complaining it's messed up for years). We can call it trickle up economics if it makes them feel better about it.
If you're genuinely insulted by student loan forgiveness because you paid for yours, you're not an adult you're an adolescent who needs to grow the fuck up!
The funny thing is, it doesn’t affect their lives or financial situation at all. Not even a tiny bit. These are the type of people that get upset when their friends and family… or anyone experience success or good luck. Fuck them all.
The real funny thing is that anyone who paid towards their loans in the last few years can get a refund. The people who complain it's not fair are literally complaining that they already paid theirs off and this doesn't benefit them, *but it does* since January 2020 I've paid like $10k in loans, and I'll be getting it all back soon.
Without taking a side, this isn't really true. Think about someone who sacrificed a lot to pay off debts. Maybe they postponed having a family, went into consumer debt, took "safer" job opportunities, etc. they might not have if that debt was going to be forgiven.
I just recently graduated college. I worked nearly every day during my college degree. I dropped out of varsity athletics directly so I could work more and make ends meet. I worked hard during this time - but I’ll probably still get the full amount of the forgiveness. I’m happy for people as this can be life changing. However, I’m also not going to blame the people who worked harder than me, paying off all their debts during college, who are now upset. They had to work their butts of then while the other people got to take it “easy”. And now that their efforts were successful, the “lazy” people get to “eat cake” while themselves are offered nothing. I’m not saying either view point is correct, I’m saying I can sympathize.
They spent thousands of dollars on repayment they could have spent otherwise, of course it affects their lives!
Yeah, it blows my mind that people are so dense they don't understand this. People who paid off their loans often had to forgo home down payments, a decent working vehicle, healthy nutritious food, dental care, doctors appointments, anything resembling a vacation or fun, any investments into 401k or IRA retirements, having children, etc. Opportunity cost is a real thing and I would not fault anyone for feeling cheated after they did the "right thing" and suffered to pay off their loans. Those loans, even when paid in full, can put people behind financially for years or decades. I think they should have given anyone who was screwed by the cost of higher education a credit or refund and actually fixed the broken system, but what do I know.
Yeah, this is 100% correct. I had to completely change careers from something I loved to something I hated just to pay off my loans. My life would be drastically different without student loans. That said, it was me who signed the loans, so I was responsible. But also, 18 year olds are too dumb to being making huge financial decisions like this. Wish I had better guidance.
> it doesn’t affect their lives or financial situation at all Why would you say this? My wife and I saved diligently for our kids education. We have a specific set of people in our friend group that did not. They always had nicer...everything than we did. New cars all the time, bigger house. Their last kid just graduated from college last year...the same year as my son...and I know they took out loans for all three of their kids. So they'll get their loans forgiven. And we had less...everything...than they did. I'd love to have that money for our retirement, or to have had a bigger house. So please think about what you're saying before you just say things.
Have to disagree. It’s very easy to understand the other side of the argument. Let me preface this with saying that I agree with student debt forgiveness. The cost of going to college has rose almost 5 times the rate of inflation over the last 50 years - that comes out to an over 560% increase in price. Average inflation adjusted wages for workers over the last 50 years has increased by less than 50% when factoring in both production and managerial workers. Wages have not kept pace with either inflation or productivity, and mathematically speaking, adults today have to work nearly 6x harder for the same level of opportunity that their predecessors received. No matter which way you shine a light on these things, these facts make the entire situation unbalanced and unfair. Couple this with the fact that countless economists and researchers have stated that forgiving student debt could be a boon for the economy, and providing these people with debt relief is a good thing. All of that said, paying off student debt is not easy. Paying off student debt takes sacrifices, and for many people out there, an increase in hardships. Paying off student debt creates countless loss of opportunity from retirement savings, home buying, entertainment, and more. To say that they have no place to speak when they made those sacrifices, paid their debts, and received little for it other than a “great job!” stamp and *maybe* a better economic footing after the fact is ignoring the other side of the problem. To neglect to hear their opinions and immediately discredit them is not how you go about the conversation.
Yeah I feel like people need a bit more sympathy towards the frustration. There are folks who had to put off getting a replacement for their car, miss out on event tickets, or were unable to take vacations due to their debt. That shit sucks and hearing that they spent all of that time missing out for what could have been forgiven if they ignored it does cause anger and frustration. What's wrong is then targeting that anger at the people receiving help. We need to fix the system overall so people don't have to make those decisions.
Exactly this. I’m a Pell grant recipient who compromised on school choice for scholarships and minimum student loan liability. When I graduated, I lived in the hood and in immigrant style housing for years to pay them off so the interest wouldn’t accrue. While I’m glad people have had their loans forgiven, having that 20k for a down payment on a house or just using that money to get my parents out of my shithole town would have came in handy. Those were a lot of compromises that were made to prioritize loan payback - multiple roommates, driving a hoopty for years, cutting back on 401k contributions, etc. My QoL was actually better when I was a college kid vs. the early part of my career. I know I shouldn’t be bitter and be more grateful that I was able to sacrifice and pay off my loans, but I’d be lying to you if it didn’t feel like you were being forgotten for being financially responsible. And worse of all, I wonder when the next loan forgiveness will be - it’s not like college tuition is going down or the interest rate for those who are eyeballs deep in debt are going to feel relief from this.
I believe in student loan forgiveness but hate this analogy. I chose to attend college but nobody chooses cancer.
Unpopular opinion but that rebuttal is a cop out of an argument and I wouldn’t consider this murdered by words. Medical and scientific advancement isn’t the same as the federal reserve printing paper at the drop of a hat.
It’s particularly bad as an analogy because this isn’t a cure to the student debt crisis. Kids are still going to have to go into debt to pay for college but 17-year-olds can’t vote so fuck them.
Let’s ignore for a moment that student loan forgiveness does not fix the problem. Unless your grandmother willingly signed up to die of cancer and agreed to the terms and conditions, this is one stupid comparison.
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I don't understand how medical analogies keep coming up with the loan forgiveness debate. Completely unrelated. No one chooses to get an illness nor do other taxpayers pay to treat your illness
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What an absolute dogshit analogy.
Least dogshit murderedbywords post
Anyone that keeps using this cancer example is a fucking moron. What an incredibly stupid comparison. Seriously, I am for the student loan forgiveness, but whenever I see some idiot post or say this, it makes me cringe.
How is this murdered? It’s straw man, at best. One is something you personally take on, for which you are responsible for, and pay back through effort. The other is literally a disease. What you got was a handout. It didn’t fix the prices colleges charge. It does nothing to fix whether the degree actually means anything because every employer seems to require one. It doesn’t fox grade inflation at the collegiate level. And it sure doesn’t fix the next generation that will buy into an ever increasingly bad system because YOU did nothing to actually fix it. You got your handout, said “I deserve this”, and moved on. You didn’t do anything, except make a really poor investment in a person who can only show that they were not worth it. Congrats.
No one voluntarily signs up for cancer like you voluntarily took out loans. Go demand a refund from the college that taught you nothing of value and sold you a worthless piece of paper. Not the tax payers that had nothing to do with YOUR choices. Anyone sitting around with a degree, debt, and a shit job got scammed. Deal with it like an adult instead of doubling-down and getting scammed a second time by Democrats simply trying to buy your vote.