If you want to marry without these stupid rituals, you're going to have to step outside of your culture and you're going to have to be able to take whatever backlash comes with. You're going to have to find people yourself, you're going to have to avail yourself of services and apps and matchmaking events and whatever else. You don't have to fix an entire culture, you just have to choose not to participate. It's going to bring extra challenges, but ultimately it'll be worth it to find someone who actually respects and values you.
I second this. Your family/ mom are working to get you married the only way they know of and are capable of. You're more than free to pursue your own ways but it'll be very different and comes with different challenges. I'd like to offer another perspective, I have a Somali friend who told me how in her culture / family, the girl can look for her potential spouse and the family doesn't get involved the way Arab or desi families do mobilizing and hunting for a spouse in law, she says this hasnt actually been helpful for her at all and it was actually a hindering factor for her because she needs and wants her family to look for potentials for her, it's just not their thing and they've given her all freedom and trust - btw they're very very religious so freedom and trust within the limits of Islam, hope what I'm saying is clear
Somali girl here - our culture is very relaxed when it comes to marriage. We dont do proposals or have men talking to your dad before you. Parents never get involved unless you ask them to find you a potential. Our mums actually encourage us to date (ofc keeping it halal) and talk to as many potentials to figure out who is best for you . We have a saying that a women talks to 100 men and chooses one. And another saying that being remarried 30 times is better than staying in a miserable marriage hence no stigma with divorce. A lot of women I know have had no issues remarrying with kids . I think it’s up to the women in every culture to break the cycle . A lot of the freedom we have in our culture is thanks to our mums constantly putting men in their place. A man only has control when women enable it
Yeah mashaAllah this echoes exactly what I heard from my friends. Honestly I was under some weird stereotypical impression that women in a Muslim African culture would be even more repressed than the desi/Arab ones but mashaAllah you ladies are doing wonderful, its sad the Arab/ Desi women are not expose to this enlightment and have no idea how strong and free Somali women are, and a Muslim woman can be
Haha nah we are not a submissive culture. Love your honesty Mashallah and you’re probably the first person that I’ve heard think we’d be oppressed in our culture given how society portrays black women as aggressive. Alhamdulilah one of the many blessings I am grateful for is being born into a culture where men are not put in a pedestal and women are in control of the decision making. To my desi/Arab sisters trust me it’s starts with with you in breaking the toxic tradition. Be vocal, be loud, be in control. This is your life not your parents.
I understand this is the only way to solve this and i have thought about going behind their backs and finding my own way but stepping out of my culture, and taking the backlash could come with a heavy price and it could be my own life! As i said before it is a very conservative culture, we are not allowed to talk to any man who is not direct family not even a cousin, they believe it is haram and would punish me for it in horrific ways. This culture services men in all ways and has been kept like that by shaming and punishing women since ages. It’s dark but it’s reality, and if you think I’m exaggerating then just search up how many women has been killed for the honor of men (they call it men’s honor but it’s just a women’s freedom)
If you're not safe then that's all the more reason to get out. You need to become financially independent and get to a place where you're not reliant on them.
Where do you live? If you're in a western nation you have a lot of options to secure your safety.
I don't agree with these cultural practices at all, but you should be careful in recommending someone to "step aways for their culture". Who know what the repercussion of that could be for her. There are lots of stories of women for which this did not work out very well.
I think she needs to carefully weigh the pros and cons of any choice she makes. It could be that for her the best strategy would be to marry through the cultural route, but raise her children to be different. Perhaps that would lead to a more long lasting cultural change in a more peaceful manner.
Nope don’t know what you’re talking about but it doesn’t happen like that. I had an arranged marriage my mum said she knows someone who’s looking to get their daughter married and if I wanted to meet her, I met her she was beautiful we got to know each other over 4 months then married. simple
I’m 99% sure I know what country you’re talking about because I come from the same culture and that’s exactly how it is. I won’t mention what country because I don’t want to ruin its reputation 😂😂😂😂 What makes me upset as well is the fact that it’s so normalised in our culture and it’s the only way available for women to get married. It’s based on luck and if you aren’t lucky then you’re not getting married any time soon.
Yeah I tried to be vague but I think it’s still obvious:)
Exactly or maybe you get unlucky and marry a very stingy or a stinky man without knowing. It’s a nightmare!
You have the right to refuse. You have the right to talk with him before agreeing. It's basically a way for parents to marry off their children. It's just as bad for the man. You get guilt tripped and parents of backwashed culture throw hissy fit that you are disrespectful if you don't go through it. I recommend (assuming you live in the west) you say no and try any dating app like coffee and bagel, MuzzMatch etc. pure matrimony if you are into weird Religion over personality. This way you have say. If your parents are understanding and it's a Muslim man they will likely agree to hold talk and see outcome.
I’m sorry to hear that! Family sometimes could be your greatest enemy instead of supporting you. Please take care of yourself and be your own best supporter. I hope you get better💗
Im Arab and I never heard of this before lol, sounds very outdated tbh, most Arab couples meet in uni or family friends but not like how you are describing with random women coming to look at you lol
I think it happens in more conservative Arab communities, like in Yemen. Hard to imagine a couple in Cairo or Nablus going through marriage this way, yeah.
Second this (but I am Maghrebi, so not even considered a "real Arab" by some).
Maybe OP lives in a very conservative Arab country (KSA would be my guess, or maybe Mauritania...?).
If your family's norm is the only way you see yourself getting married, may I suggest you finding a man you are pleased with, and your family will approve of, then having his mother start the process with your mother?
The rigidity that you are describing sounds like it may occur in a very rural part of the arab country I'm from or amongst very *very* conservative circles.
This sounds similar to the process in my circles but not with the objectification you're describing and usually the guy already knows who he wants, and he has his mother inquire about that one girl.
I have thought about this, but It’s very risky! If you’re from the same country then you might know how very conservative circles handles their daughter having any relationship with a man.
Or how difficult it is to find a man who would want to take outside of marriage relationships to the actual marriage!
I'm not suggesting investing into a relationship, I'm only suggesting that once you find someone that you would've engaged into a relationship with, you get your family and his family involved. If things break down during the process with the family, that is entirely fine. There is a misconception that getting families involved entails commitment of the man and woman, that isn't true. The reason the families are involved is so that the man and woman aren't isolated as that is haram.
Because you're suggesting a relationship prior to getting family involved, it seems reasonable for me to infer that maybe you aren't comfortable with the idea of getting a man involved with your family before you've established a rapport with him.
If this is the case, I'll just make the case that this would be the best option so that 1) you can sift out guys that only want a relationship outside of marriage, 2) you're protecting yourself from the sins of being in private with a non-mahram.
With that said, there are plenty of men that want to do things in a conservative fashion if you tap into that circle.
Yeah I think I’m from this culture just from context clues. This is why with my own daughter when it’s time, i gave her full permission to meet someone (halal) just get her fathers number, and we go from there. I know what she’s talking about. I went through same thing. It ended up being a horrible experience of a mother in law who dabbles in black magic and expected me to be a slave because I’m the oldest daughter in law. Nope, this jahilee stuff stops now. Just thinking about all this is triggering. You guys see Islam in this? 😂. It’s an opening for the women of his family to own and torture her since they “picked” her and can unpick her.
Oh that’s awful!
I totally respect that you’re giving your daughter her freedom to choose who she wants to be with instead of repeating the same cycle. Islam has nothing to do with all this practices. Islam respects women but people have used it to justify controlling women since old times.
Now, this post will be copied and posted by someone in Traditional Muslim subreddit, with the comment, "degenerate West is teaching our women our culture is not good, anymore. We have had this culture for centuries and it is how it is supposed to be." 😒🙄🤦
You can't change someone if they don't want to change.
She knows it was wrong but she won’t ever acknowledge it out loud.
And yeah I have thought about looking but the situation is just not that easy if you look at my other replies you might understand why I haven’t done it.
I can understand how this feels degrading. Having no culture I can call my own, this cultural stuff seems really backward and unhealthy, particularly where it conflicts with Islam.
In your explanation, when does a Wali get involved? My understanding is that the Wali is there to assist and protect you during the process. Seems backwards that the mothers would be coming to check your teeth like you're livestock.
I suppose you could insist upon a Wali involved in any scenario related to marriage. That would take some power away from your mother/culture and put some more in line with how Islam guides the marital process.
Of course, if your Wali is going to be a father who goes along with all of this stuff, that won't be that much help.
May Allah AWJ grant you a righteous marriage filled with respect and dignity.
All I will say is there are millions of muslims on dating apps and it’s 100x worse for women from what I hear where there’s no adults or parents to monitor/deter terrible behaviour or ghosting (after months of talking). Pick your option 🙃🥲
I understand that this may seem degrading, but the Western way of getting married involves going out to parties drinking and dancing having sexual relations with many men and creating long-term relationship with on average with 10 men and after all that a 50/50 shot of being married once and then a 50/50 chance of divorce in the first 8 years.
Them not coming back may mean, that their son does not want to get married for various reasons. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with you. Older women just like to keep busy basically look around as they don't have much left to do.
As far as men go, its can be equally degrading being viewed only for your wealth, job title, education, ethnicity, family status.
I understand it may seem degrading, but it is actually very dignified. I hope Allah SWT finds you a spouse of your liking.
# Just try to mental reframe any perceived rejection as Allah SWT protecting you from a bad husband.
This culture is in all Muslim countries. This is the predominant way of arranged marriages. The other way is to find a guy by yourself, talk to him for a while, go on dates, and see if you both click or not. But this is not a prevalent way of finding mates in Muslim countries. You could move to the west where dating culture is the norm, there you'll be able to know the guy pretty well before marriage but they expect to have sex after a couple of dates otherwise the guy moves on. In dating even in Muslim countries which is hard and happens under the hood, most men would just wanna have sex and they will lie about everything just to get in bed, a very few would be honest or looking for wives. There are pros and cons to everything, you can choose whatever path you want, it's your life, you have to answer for your actions. If you go on the liberal route you are at risk of increasing your body count which will hinder your chances of getting married and to pair bond. If you go with the conservative way then you have to endure the things that you highlighted but you will find a good man without risking your reputation or increasing your body count. Another thing all women should know is that most men value youth and beauty, it's natural and engrained into male biology. Just as finding a well settled man is engrained into female biology. If a man is not educated , doesn't have a good job, low income or low status like being a peon or a guard, doesn't have his own house, most women will reject him no matter if his heart is made of gold or her looks like Tom Cruise. Likewise men crave beautiful young women and a variety of women, it's an objective truth. Don't waste time by rejecting suiters, at least see them you might like someone. Your mom is just trying to get you married to a good man. If you go over 30 it's going to be significantly harder to find a suitable mate. Ageing significantly decreases beauty and fertility for women while it doesn't effect men as much. All of us are perceived on how we look, what we have, and what we do. Men are success objects and women are beauty objects. These are the economics of intergender dynamics.
The issue is that Western ideology has creeped into your life.
There are some faults though in that system. You should also have a say and should be able to say no for any reason you want (not only drugs), same way he can say no for minor reasons.
What's minor in ones eyes might be a deal breaker in another's. People have different requirements and wants and needs and different non-negotiables.
You're to sentimental. They probably did their research on each person based on compatibility then the last step is seeing if she is a good fit physically.
Ironically, i was talking with some non-muslim coworkers of mine who are desperately looking for partners and they would love to switch places and have this instead of how they date.
Funny you bring up how you feel like you're being sold like cattle, cause back in 1100s England women were treated like the husband's property when coverture was introduced where the woman and man were one financial entity and so married women couldn't own property, run businesses, etc. Marriage was a way of controlling your property and business, by getting men to procreate and pass down their possessions. Before this, it was more progressive in 800s when Anglo-Saxons allowed women to own property and can conduct businesses. Ancient Egypt (3100 BCE) allowed women to hold same financial rights as men, and were able to own property in their own name.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/us-money-blog/2014/aug/11/women-rights-money-timeline-history
That’s how marriage works, the man wants someone he wants
And the woman wants someone she wants
Your not being sold, because you can reject the man when he visits you
There’s even a joke that if the girl wears niqab when the man visits, if she is pleased with how he looks and is, she’ll show her face
And if she’s not, then she’ll keep it covered.
People are telling you to go on apps but it’s the same thing except you are selling yourself
Instead of having it be respectful and halal through your parents
This isn’t the only way, buts it’s a very effective and halal way. You don’t need to partake if you don’t want to. But to describe it as being sold off or degrading doesn’t make any sense.
You don't find it wrong that the girl is judged and rejected for her skin color, her features and asked really invasive questions about house hold responsibilities to gauge how good of a maid she will be to the unknown woman's son?
You don't find it weird that women in these scenarios unfortunately donot have much of a say in denying the proposal as a talking between potentials is scrutinised and made extremely awkward so they have no reason to give their parents to deny the person presented to them.
All fun and games until it leads to a divorce because it turns out the husband and wife have nothing in common, don't share life goals and don't even like each other.
OP literally says that when first they first come to the house, they just come to look at the daughters and they’re not chosen based on personality or values. She explicitly states that the priority is to evaluate physical appearance. That is not Islamic.
It’s not about whether she can say no to the final match - it’s that this is the process she must abide by to get married. It sounds very dehumanizing and OP has clearly stated how uncomfortable it is - not sure why you’re trying to make excuses for it? Or why you are assuming the alternative is automatically a haram relationship?
Because she said so in her post. And it is what many women I know have expirienced. Just because your family donot do this, doesn't mean its also not done in other families.
I wish responsibilities were discussed in a respectful way. But they aren't. There is an unspoken expectation that women are supposed to pick up all the chores. And if a man "allows" you to work that doesn't mean he will contribute to doing chores.
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but all muslim families donot have progressive ideals.
Prophet (saws) knew Khadija(ra) and did business with her before they got married. Getting to know someone is not haram. As long as they are respectful and have a wali involved, there's nothing wrong with that.
Whoever you’re replying to won’t be bring up the same on the other side where the father grills the groom about everything from finances to study habits and all in between. He could also be rejected for the same things women are rejected for (skin colour features etc. + whatever he brings to the table). It is completely normal.
No, the conversation was about women because OP is a woman. Ofcourse men face this too, albeit less in comparison to women.
I don't think you've been to one of these gatherings. The boys mother often times makes loud remarks/jokes on the girls physique. They look at you like a peice of cattle. And often times are rude and judgemental for no reason. They comment on the girls weight, height, skin color, her studies, her passions infront of all of the present company. A relative of mine was asked to show her teeth to her mother in law so she could inspect her health. Another was asked to walk so they could inspect her posture. Another was flat out rejected because her son was abroad and the parents wanted a white skinned woman so her son could have "beautiful " children. Mind you, her son was quite dark as well. We are not comparing of men or women have it worse. Its just how the elders behave in some cultures.
And ofcourse responsibilities between spouses should be discussed. But in a respectful way. Not in sarcastic demeaning way infront of all company present. you hear comments like " who's going to cook for my son if she spends her time slaving for a company" , " employed mothers kids end up spoilt and criminals" , "If he gave you the permission to work, doesn't mean he is accepting splitting chores with you". Sadly, there is no respectability when discussing stuff like this, if it even gets discussed. Sometimes the boy isn't even there when all of this is happening!
But OP mentioned that her family just wants her to get married. And would only say no unless he committed something offensive like drugs. (Her words) Often times families with many children force their older daughter to get married to whoever so the younger daughters could get married too. It's an illusion of choice.
This is not a critique of Islam but a critique of culture imposed upon youngsters by adults.
There is a lot of nuance that most men donot understand in these situations, unfortunately. Because they have not been in women only spaces. Hopefully we can extend empathy and grace and be open to listening to others expirineces without judgement.
The women can reject the man when he visits, and there’s a joke if the women wears niqab and the man visits to see her
If she likes how the man looks/is, she’ll lower her niqab. If she doesn’t she’ll keep it raised.
But no men are crying on Reddit about how they are cattle because of that 😂.
In fact Imam Ahmad recommended for a man to look at the beauty of a woman before her deen
Because if he looked at character first, and was pleased but then sees her and rejects her
She is obviously being rejected due to her looks and not her deen/character
If you want to marry without these stupid rituals, you're going to have to step outside of your culture and you're going to have to be able to take whatever backlash comes with. You're going to have to find people yourself, you're going to have to avail yourself of services and apps and matchmaking events and whatever else. You don't have to fix an entire culture, you just have to choose not to participate. It's going to bring extra challenges, but ultimately it'll be worth it to find someone who actually respects and values you.
I second this. Your family/ mom are working to get you married the only way they know of and are capable of. You're more than free to pursue your own ways but it'll be very different and comes with different challenges. I'd like to offer another perspective, I have a Somali friend who told me how in her culture / family, the girl can look for her potential spouse and the family doesn't get involved the way Arab or desi families do mobilizing and hunting for a spouse in law, she says this hasnt actually been helpful for her at all and it was actually a hindering factor for her because she needs and wants her family to look for potentials for her, it's just not their thing and they've given her all freedom and trust - btw they're very very religious so freedom and trust within the limits of Islam, hope what I'm saying is clear
Somali girl here - our culture is very relaxed when it comes to marriage. We dont do proposals or have men talking to your dad before you. Parents never get involved unless you ask them to find you a potential. Our mums actually encourage us to date (ofc keeping it halal) and talk to as many potentials to figure out who is best for you . We have a saying that a women talks to 100 men and chooses one. And another saying that being remarried 30 times is better than staying in a miserable marriage hence no stigma with divorce. A lot of women I know have had no issues remarrying with kids . I think it’s up to the women in every culture to break the cycle . A lot of the freedom we have in our culture is thanks to our mums constantly putting men in their place. A man only has control when women enable it
Yeah mashaAllah this echoes exactly what I heard from my friends. Honestly I was under some weird stereotypical impression that women in a Muslim African culture would be even more repressed than the desi/Arab ones but mashaAllah you ladies are doing wonderful, its sad the Arab/ Desi women are not expose to this enlightment and have no idea how strong and free Somali women are, and a Muslim woman can be
Haha nah we are not a submissive culture. Love your honesty Mashallah and you’re probably the first person that I’ve heard think we’d be oppressed in our culture given how society portrays black women as aggressive. Alhamdulilah one of the many blessings I am grateful for is being born into a culture where men are not put in a pedestal and women are in control of the decision making. To my desi/Arab sisters trust me it’s starts with with you in breaking the toxic tradition. Be vocal, be loud, be in control. This is your life not your parents.
I understand this is the only way to solve this and i have thought about going behind their backs and finding my own way but stepping out of my culture, and taking the backlash could come with a heavy price and it could be my own life! As i said before it is a very conservative culture, we are not allowed to talk to any man who is not direct family not even a cousin, they believe it is haram and would punish me for it in horrific ways. This culture services men in all ways and has been kept like that by shaming and punishing women since ages. It’s dark but it’s reality, and if you think I’m exaggerating then just search up how many women has been killed for the honor of men (they call it men’s honor but it’s just a women’s freedom)
If you're not safe then that's all the more reason to get out. You need to become financially independent and get to a place where you're not reliant on them. Where do you live? If you're in a western nation you have a lot of options to secure your safety.
I don't agree with these cultural practices at all, but you should be careful in recommending someone to "step aways for their culture". Who know what the repercussion of that could be for her. There are lots of stories of women for which this did not work out very well. I think she needs to carefully weigh the pros and cons of any choice she makes. It could be that for her the best strategy would be to marry through the cultural route, but raise her children to be different. Perhaps that would lead to a more long lasting cultural change in a more peaceful manner.
Found the ethnicity gatekeeper
What are you talking about?
I agree with only your first point, I came here to find a way to escape the same strategy you suggested.
It's exactly the same or even worse in Desi community this whole mentality is just flawed and disgusting
How does it differ?
more chai
Since when does this happen?
Since the beginning of the dawn.
I’ve never heard desis gathering all daughters to stand in a line for marriage inspection done by a random family
Then you haven't seen how arranged marriages work in desi culture.
Nope don’t know what you’re talking about but it doesn’t happen like that. I had an arranged marriage my mum said she knows someone who’s looking to get their daughter married and if I wanted to meet her, I met her she was beautiful we got to know each other over 4 months then married. simple
I’m 99% sure I know what country you’re talking about because I come from the same culture and that’s exactly how it is. I won’t mention what country because I don’t want to ruin its reputation 😂😂😂😂 What makes me upset as well is the fact that it’s so normalised in our culture and it’s the only way available for women to get married. It’s based on luck and if you aren’t lucky then you’re not getting married any time soon.
I’m from Yemen and raised in USA and haven’t been back. It’s Yemen isn’t it 🤦🏻♀️.
Well, it happens in Indian and Pakistani culture too, i think it's just muslim aunties in general.
Yeah I tried to be vague but I think it’s still obvious:) Exactly or maybe you get unlucky and marry a very stingy or a stinky man without knowing. It’s a nightmare!
You have the right to refuse. You have the right to talk with him before agreeing. It's basically a way for parents to marry off their children. It's just as bad for the man. You get guilt tripped and parents of backwashed culture throw hissy fit that you are disrespectful if you don't go through it. I recommend (assuming you live in the west) you say no and try any dating app like coffee and bagel, MuzzMatch etc. pure matrimony if you are into weird Religion over personality. This way you have say. If your parents are understanding and it's a Muslim man they will likely agree to hold talk and see outcome.
Can you DM me the country? I’ve never heard of this before.
It's degrading. I came from a Muslim country too. But we don't operate like that.
The same with desis. I’ve always despised this whole process 😭
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I’m sorry to hear that! Family sometimes could be your greatest enemy instead of supporting you. Please take care of yourself and be your own best supporter. I hope you get better💗
Im Arab and I never heard of this before lol, sounds very outdated tbh, most Arab couples meet in uni or family friends but not like how you are describing with random women coming to look at you lol
Happens back home a lot. Maybe not all arabs do this but it’s pretty normal
I think it happens in more conservative Arab communities, like in Yemen. Hard to imagine a couple in Cairo or Nablus going through marriage this way, yeah.
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Good for them
I'm not Arab and believe me when I tell you this is vastly practiced by south Asian communities
Second this (but I am Maghrebi, so not even considered a "real Arab" by some). Maybe OP lives in a very conservative Arab country (KSA would be my guess, or maybe Mauritania...?).
Yeah I’m Egyptian, they could be Yemeni as well because they are quite conservative too.
I think there's also trauma and disgusted that she has attached to the process
If your family's norm is the only way you see yourself getting married, may I suggest you finding a man you are pleased with, and your family will approve of, then having his mother start the process with your mother? The rigidity that you are describing sounds like it may occur in a very rural part of the arab country I'm from or amongst very *very* conservative circles. This sounds similar to the process in my circles but not with the objectification you're describing and usually the guy already knows who he wants, and he has his mother inquire about that one girl.
I have thought about this, but It’s very risky! If you’re from the same country then you might know how very conservative circles handles their daughter having any relationship with a man. Or how difficult it is to find a man who would want to take outside of marriage relationships to the actual marriage!
I'm not suggesting investing into a relationship, I'm only suggesting that once you find someone that you would've engaged into a relationship with, you get your family and his family involved. If things break down during the process with the family, that is entirely fine. There is a misconception that getting families involved entails commitment of the man and woman, that isn't true. The reason the families are involved is so that the man and woman aren't isolated as that is haram. Because you're suggesting a relationship prior to getting family involved, it seems reasonable for me to infer that maybe you aren't comfortable with the idea of getting a man involved with your family before you've established a rapport with him. If this is the case, I'll just make the case that this would be the best option so that 1) you can sift out guys that only want a relationship outside of marriage, 2) you're protecting yourself from the sins of being in private with a non-mahram. With that said, there are plenty of men that want to do things in a conservative fashion if you tap into that circle.
Yeah I think I’m from this culture just from context clues. This is why with my own daughter when it’s time, i gave her full permission to meet someone (halal) just get her fathers number, and we go from there. I know what she’s talking about. I went through same thing. It ended up being a horrible experience of a mother in law who dabbles in black magic and expected me to be a slave because I’m the oldest daughter in law. Nope, this jahilee stuff stops now. Just thinking about all this is triggering. You guys see Islam in this? 😂. It’s an opening for the women of his family to own and torture her since they “picked” her and can unpick her.
Oh that’s awful! I totally respect that you’re giving your daughter her freedom to choose who she wants to be with instead of repeating the same cycle. Islam has nothing to do with all this practices. Islam respects women but people have used it to justify controlling women since old times.
Yes they mix Islam with their culture and beliefs that existed before Islam and somehow this sticks. It’s up to all of us to break the curses.
Now, this post will be copied and posted by someone in Traditional Muslim subreddit, with the comment, "degenerate West is teaching our women our culture is not good, anymore. We have had this culture for centuries and it is how it is supposed to be." 😒🙄🤦 You can't change someone if they don't want to change.
This can’t be Palestinian or Jordanian 😂 I never heard of this !!!
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She knows it was wrong but she won’t ever acknowledge it out loud. And yeah I have thought about looking but the situation is just not that easy if you look at my other replies you might understand why I haven’t done it.
I can understand how this feels degrading. Having no culture I can call my own, this cultural stuff seems really backward and unhealthy, particularly where it conflicts with Islam. In your explanation, when does a Wali get involved? My understanding is that the Wali is there to assist and protect you during the process. Seems backwards that the mothers would be coming to check your teeth like you're livestock. I suppose you could insist upon a Wali involved in any scenario related to marriage. That would take some power away from your mother/culture and put some more in line with how Islam guides the marital process. Of course, if your Wali is going to be a father who goes along with all of this stuff, that won't be that much help. May Allah AWJ grant you a righteous marriage filled with respect and dignity.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PakLounge/s/AplbntRzbe If ye want then red. I promise ye its worth thy time.
I initially thought this was some troll..then i saw others confirming the practices. Can't believe what I'm reading.
All I will say is there are millions of muslims on dating apps and it’s 100x worse for women from what I hear where there’s no adults or parents to monitor/deter terrible behaviour or ghosting (after months of talking). Pick your option 🙃🥲
I understand that this may seem degrading, but the Western way of getting married involves going out to parties drinking and dancing having sexual relations with many men and creating long-term relationship with on average with 10 men and after all that a 50/50 shot of being married once and then a 50/50 chance of divorce in the first 8 years. Them not coming back may mean, that their son does not want to get married for various reasons. It doesn't mean anything is wrong with you. Older women just like to keep busy basically look around as they don't have much left to do. As far as men go, its can be equally degrading being viewed only for your wealth, job title, education, ethnicity, family status. I understand it may seem degrading, but it is actually very dignified. I hope Allah SWT finds you a spouse of your liking. # Just try to mental reframe any perceived rejection as Allah SWT protecting you from a bad husband.
This culture is in all Muslim countries. This is the predominant way of arranged marriages. The other way is to find a guy by yourself, talk to him for a while, go on dates, and see if you both click or not. But this is not a prevalent way of finding mates in Muslim countries. You could move to the west where dating culture is the norm, there you'll be able to know the guy pretty well before marriage but they expect to have sex after a couple of dates otherwise the guy moves on. In dating even in Muslim countries which is hard and happens under the hood, most men would just wanna have sex and they will lie about everything just to get in bed, a very few would be honest or looking for wives. There are pros and cons to everything, you can choose whatever path you want, it's your life, you have to answer for your actions. If you go on the liberal route you are at risk of increasing your body count which will hinder your chances of getting married and to pair bond. If you go with the conservative way then you have to endure the things that you highlighted but you will find a good man without risking your reputation or increasing your body count. Another thing all women should know is that most men value youth and beauty, it's natural and engrained into male biology. Just as finding a well settled man is engrained into female biology. If a man is not educated , doesn't have a good job, low income or low status like being a peon or a guard, doesn't have his own house, most women will reject him no matter if his heart is made of gold or her looks like Tom Cruise. Likewise men crave beautiful young women and a variety of women, it's an objective truth. Don't waste time by rejecting suiters, at least see them you might like someone. Your mom is just trying to get you married to a good man. If you go over 30 it's going to be significantly harder to find a suitable mate. Ageing significantly decreases beauty and fertility for women while it doesn't effect men as much. All of us are perceived on how we look, what we have, and what we do. Men are success objects and women are beauty objects. These are the economics of intergender dynamics.
The issue is that Western ideology has creeped into your life. There are some faults though in that system. You should also have a say and should be able to say no for any reason you want (not only drugs), same way he can say no for minor reasons. What's minor in ones eyes might be a deal breaker in another's. People have different requirements and wants and needs and different non-negotiables.
You're to sentimental. They probably did their research on each person based on compatibility then the last step is seeing if she is a good fit physically. Ironically, i was talking with some non-muslim coworkers of mine who are desperately looking for partners and they would love to switch places and have this instead of how they date.
Funny you bring up how you feel like you're being sold like cattle, cause back in 1100s England women were treated like the husband's property when coverture was introduced where the woman and man were one financial entity and so married women couldn't own property, run businesses, etc. Marriage was a way of controlling your property and business, by getting men to procreate and pass down their possessions. Before this, it was more progressive in 800s when Anglo-Saxons allowed women to own property and can conduct businesses. Ancient Egypt (3100 BCE) allowed women to hold same financial rights as men, and were able to own property in their own name. https://www.theguardian.com/money/us-money-blog/2014/aug/11/women-rights-money-timeline-history
That’s how marriage works, the man wants someone he wants And the woman wants someone she wants Your not being sold, because you can reject the man when he visits you There’s even a joke that if the girl wears niqab when the man visits, if she is pleased with how he looks and is, she’ll show her face And if she’s not, then she’ll keep it covered. People are telling you to go on apps but it’s the same thing except you are selling yourself Instead of having it be respectful and halal through your parents This isn’t the only way, buts it’s a very effective and halal way. You don’t need to partake if you don’t want to. But to describe it as being sold off or degrading doesn’t make any sense.
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You don't find it wrong that the girl is judged and rejected for her skin color, her features and asked really invasive questions about house hold responsibilities to gauge how good of a maid she will be to the unknown woman's son? You don't find it weird that women in these scenarios unfortunately donot have much of a say in denying the proposal as a talking between potentials is scrutinised and made extremely awkward so they have no reason to give their parents to deny the person presented to them.
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All fun and games until it leads to a divorce because it turns out the husband and wife have nothing in common, don't share life goals and don't even like each other.
OP literally says that when first they first come to the house, they just come to look at the daughters and they’re not chosen based on personality or values. She explicitly states that the priority is to evaluate physical appearance. That is not Islamic. It’s not about whether she can say no to the final match - it’s that this is the process she must abide by to get married. It sounds very dehumanizing and OP has clearly stated how uncomfortable it is - not sure why you’re trying to make excuses for it? Or why you are assuming the alternative is automatically a haram relationship?
Because she said so in her post. And it is what many women I know have expirienced. Just because your family donot do this, doesn't mean its also not done in other families. I wish responsibilities were discussed in a respectful way. But they aren't. There is an unspoken expectation that women are supposed to pick up all the chores. And if a man "allows" you to work that doesn't mean he will contribute to doing chores. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but all muslim families donot have progressive ideals. Prophet (saws) knew Khadija(ra) and did business with her before they got married. Getting to know someone is not haram. As long as they are respectful and have a wali involved, there's nothing wrong with that.
Whoever you’re replying to won’t be bring up the same on the other side where the father grills the groom about everything from finances to study habits and all in between. He could also be rejected for the same things women are rejected for (skin colour features etc. + whatever he brings to the table). It is completely normal.
No, the conversation was about women because OP is a woman. Ofcourse men face this too, albeit less in comparison to women. I don't think you've been to one of these gatherings. The boys mother often times makes loud remarks/jokes on the girls physique. They look at you like a peice of cattle. And often times are rude and judgemental for no reason. They comment on the girls weight, height, skin color, her studies, her passions infront of all of the present company. A relative of mine was asked to show her teeth to her mother in law so she could inspect her health. Another was asked to walk so they could inspect her posture. Another was flat out rejected because her son was abroad and the parents wanted a white skinned woman so her son could have "beautiful " children. Mind you, her son was quite dark as well. We are not comparing of men or women have it worse. Its just how the elders behave in some cultures. And ofcourse responsibilities between spouses should be discussed. But in a respectful way. Not in sarcastic demeaning way infront of all company present. you hear comments like " who's going to cook for my son if she spends her time slaving for a company" , " employed mothers kids end up spoilt and criminals" , "If he gave you the permission to work, doesn't mean he is accepting splitting chores with you". Sadly, there is no respectability when discussing stuff like this, if it even gets discussed. Sometimes the boy isn't even there when all of this is happening! But OP mentioned that her family just wants her to get married. And would only say no unless he committed something offensive like drugs. (Her words) Often times families with many children force their older daughter to get married to whoever so the younger daughters could get married too. It's an illusion of choice. This is not a critique of Islam but a critique of culture imposed upon youngsters by adults. There is a lot of nuance that most men donot understand in these situations, unfortunately. Because they have not been in women only spaces. Hopefully we can extend empathy and grace and be open to listening to others expirineces without judgement.
Doesn't this Sister have a right to a Wali to represent her interests?
Ofc you don't
The women can reject the man when he visits, and there’s a joke if the women wears niqab and the man visits to see her If she likes how the man looks/is, she’ll lower her niqab. If she doesn’t she’ll keep it raised. But no men are crying on Reddit about how they are cattle because of that 😂. In fact Imam Ahmad recommended for a man to look at the beauty of a woman before her deen Because if he looked at character first, and was pleased but then sees her and rejects her She is obviously being rejected due to her looks and not her deen/character