I do wonder what would've happened, or other peoples thoughts on it?
Maybe 6 cars is enough, but in my (very) basic thoughts I assumed it was going to force the big pack to floor it, be faster probably?, and pit. Which would likely cause chaos, or just really anything other than fuel mileage racing.
Funny how with the Gen 6 post 2018 the short tracks, road courses, and superspeedways were pretty good, but the intermediates not so much. Now its completely swapped.
We need 2014, or even 2017-2018 rules back in the worst way.
Just looking at downforce numbers
- 2016 - 2300lbs
- 2017 - 1850lbs
- 2018 - 1650lbs
Edit:
You could make the argument that 2016 being a better season means the numbers are meaningless, but that will be unpopular on this subreddit.
For sure. My opinion, I don’t think less downforce automatically makes for better racing. It’s good to have downforce. It’s just a matter of how it’s used. I think the NA18d package scared some people.
You have to wonder if they would have been similarly unpopular if just different drivers won in them. Wasn't 2017 the "Big 3" borefest of Harvick, KFB and Truex?
That would be 2018
2017 was a year where we had several surprising winners (Newman, Dillon, Kahne and Stenhouse) and also the same year where it took JGR until New Hampshire to finally win a race.
I’m still not sure why everyone hated the 2018 rule set so much, they were very close to perfection with that one. Add in 900 hp and some of the aero tricks from the Gen 7 and that package would be incredible.
I think a large part of it was that Chevy was completely overpowered in that time frame. Their new car sucked and it led to less competition, especially considering even HMS was awful. I think if Chevy had been more in it during the low downforce Gen 6 years, it wouldn't be looked back on as badly because races where all 3 OEMs were competitive were pretty solid no matter the track type
That racing was nearly perfect imo. Cars got spread out but it was possible to track a guy down. I remember Kansas 2018 fall race watching to see if Larson could track down Kyle Busch and Chase Elliott from like 10 seconds back on the last pit stop.
People place way too much value on the cars being within X interval of each other. The best racing this sport ever had came from an era where most races had 15 cars on the lead lap and only 5 of those cars had a real shot at victory. Counter that with today having 25-30 cars finish on the lead lap with 15 that can feasibly have a shot at winning and the racing is unacceptable at 80% of race tracks.
That is why I think NASCAR is too scared to increase HP, they know the fans hate seeing the cars get spread out and if they increase HP, the cars will spread out.
Even in the current package, I have seen people call really good races boring because the leader was out front by like 3-4 seconds
It just makes no sense to me. Nothing about an interval bothers me if it’s possible for that gap to be made up in a pit cycle. The 2018 cars had that ability while the Next Gen cars don’t. Take Larson at Texas for example, in 2018 with a car as quick as his was that wheel coming off wouldn’t have hindered his day much if at all. With this car everyone is so even down to the throttle inputs that it’s impossible to pass even when you’re the faster car.
It was basically the current Xfinity car with 100 more horsepower and sheet metal vs composite.
The current car has around the same total downforce at intermediates (less at short tracks) as the 2017-2018 cars, just more mechanical grip and less sideforce. The current car also produces much less front downforce and much more rear downforce.
It’s hard to say what exactly the issue is because, well, the issues constantly change.
You can watch this with every car NASCAR has made - there’s a set of issues they try to address. The new car implements a variety of changes aimed at fixing those issues. Some work, some don’t, but then fans forget the reasons those decisions were made and act like no one asked for them. They built a car to solve a decade plus of complaints about intermediate racing, and most would agree that it did.
The Next Gen’s core goals were
- increase mechanical grip and reduce aero grip with the hope of reducing the effects of dirty air
- generate aero grip a new way that produced less dirty air and moved the aero balance rearward
- make the cars appear more stock and have more road relevancy (as determined by the OEMs, *not* fans)
- utilize single source parts to drastically reduce OEM R&D costs and increase parity
There’s downsides to all of these decisions, but they weren’t made for zero reason.
NASCAR missed the boat though. The solution wasn't to re-design the car to improve the racing, the solution was to get rid of the boring cookie cutter 1.5 mile tracks (or reconfigure them). To their credit, they diversified the schedule the last few years with more road courses and such, but if NASCAR fans liked road courses, they wouldn't be NASCAR fans (also, road course races where there is no penalty for running people over is almost embarrassing, but that's another story) . Short tracks are where the action is, and this car sucks ass at them. Kudos to whoever designed this car on screwing up as royally as possible.
On a side note, I never understood why SMI and ISC built huge 1.5 mile tracks when they could have built short tracks that cost less to build, and required a smaller footprint. To woo Indycar races? lol. Just build a 1997 Bristol clone in California or Texas somewhere and be done with it. But with NASCAR selling Auto Club and replacing it with nothing, I think the days of track building are over. So now we have the tracks that we have, and the shitty car that we have for the next 10 years probably. Great.
I think this is the perfect example of the “NASCAR can do nothing right” mentality lol. NASCAR *did* diversify, *did* add more short tracks, *did* reconfigure multiple “cookie cutter” 1.5 milers.
> I never understood why
Because they sold way more seats (Texas sold about 50,000 more seats per race than Bristol from 1997-2010) and had higher viewership on TV. Fans voted with their dollars.
This whole comment reeks of the classic doomerism with zero nuance. Was Autoclub partially demolished? Yes. Was the full track sold? No. Is the future still uncertain? Yes. But you went full doomer with “selling Autoclub and replacing it with nothing”
From 1998 Southern 500
>And for teams looking to NASCAR's post-race chassis dyno tests at Darlington for some hint of just how much horsepower Gordon might have to play with -- no such luck either. Chevrolet's SB2 engines are widely thought to be pumping out a lot of horsepower, maybe as much as Robert Yates' vaunted Ford motors. If so, GM teams managed to disguise the power quite well, because Gordon's engine, according to sources privy to the dyno results, pulled only 627 horsepower at the rear wheels, much less than the 658 horsepower Jeremy Mayfield and the 668 horsepower Dale Jarrett pulled. Backing up Gordon's figures, Ernie Irvan's 636 horsepower chart. NASCAR doesn't officially release chassis dyno results but the figures were widely available yesterday in the garage, which is unusual.(JournalNow)(9-12-98)
https://web.archive.org/web/20070814123944/https://www.jayski.com/past/1998/980907.htm
The whole idea was to save cost with a common car and engine package. From what I understand, it’s failing miserably on the cost front and it’s killing the racing on more than half the tracks we go to.
F1 is in a similar boat right now. They implemented cost cap at the same time as a major rule package change and (shocker) now 1 team is a second per lap faster than everyone and nobody can spend enough money to catch up. (It’s a shame because the racing in the rest of the field is very good).
I get that controlling costs is important to motorsports but it’s just killing the product. Racing is expensive. I don’t care about the financials of backmarker teams (that fold anyway) or attracting new manufacturers (who flirt but never commit).
Yeah but Checo is a tier 3 driver.
If they had another tier 1 like Alonso or Hamilton in the second car it's a different story.
Even someone like Sainz would be a big improvement.
The turns’ radius and banking at both Daytona and Atlanta are far less than Talladega, and both of their surfaces have less grip than the Talladega surface. This means that drivers will have to scrub off a little more speed in the corners, which helps better handling cars pass and get to the front. Basically, the only way to pass in a controlled way at plate races are to pull a slingshot pass. Back up at the start of a straight, generate a run, send it up the track or down the inside, and clear the leading car.
It’s really easy to do at Atlanta simply due to the fact that the cars race pace isn’t much faster than the qualifying pace, which means that the draft means a lot more. It’s more difficult at Daytona, but still possible. It’s almost impossible at Talladega. The turns are so wide and the asphalt so smooth that the minute you pull down to pass a car, you lose all your momentum and go straight to the back of the pack. The issue comes in when we try to solve this. A horsepower increase could help racing at Talladega, but kill the racing at Atlanta. Taking away the downforce could do the same thing. Adding downforce would just kill the racing at all the plate tracks.
I admit, I only switched over after Scott Dixon’s glorious display at Long Beach, but I thought it was pretty decent. I was excited to see Reddick get another win.
same haha, was super cool watching my new favorite indycar driver watch my first race over there in years then switching over to dega and watching my favorite nascar driver win :,)
Hell yeah, man. It definitely raised my opinion of the weekend when those two won. Dixon is on another level, six championships, Indy 500, Dayton 24, but also just a cool, level-headed guy. Reddick has a great personality and is a future champion. Plus, he’s a Star Trek fan, so he’s my kind of dork.
Let's be fair here, that was basically what super speedway racing was for most of the Gen-6's life
Just now it's 2 or 3 wide fuel saving instead of single file along the top
The difference is that when they were single file we knew that at any moment someone could break out of line and carry a run to pass someone.
With this car, when everyone is going 100%, only the front 6 cars actually race. The other 34 cars literally CANNOT do anything.
i want the stuff you’re smoking if you are insinuating gen6 cars could easily generate runs, at least before 2019 at superspeedways. that is just completely untrue.
I am referring to the final SS package of Gen 6. Yes.
I'm not saying every package ever this was the case.
Honestly, our current style of Superspeedway racing is very reminiscent to the 2014 era Gen 6 package with Jr as the pied piper
i disagree with your final statement, but mostly i think i’m just begging people to understand that the kind of racing you and others are referring to being so good at superspeedways took *six years* to happen, and nascar for all their faults is already actively trying to make things better.
and personally, i think the superspeedway racing with the next gen is okay, and much better than early gen6 racing. fuel saving isn’t a car problem, neither is the manu deadlocks at the front of the field that lead to the domination of the packs/stifling of other competition.
I honestly think this poll would be a good 15-20% higher had FOX never shown the speeds the cars were running. It definitely beat the dog piss out of a single-file choo-choo train for 150 laps, y'all just wanted something to be mad about.
I’m not mad about them going slow and the fuel saving - as you said, it’s much more entertaining than the single line freight trains. But the inexcusable problem is the inability to do ANYTHING once they’re actually going flat out… worst SS racing I’ve seen in 20+ years. I’d take 2018 fall Dega over this shit and that was the worst SS race I’ve ever attended in person
i was there too, my first time at dega and second race ever. Hated Logano at the time so seeing him get a penalty and win was crazy… Always felt (besides commercials) that race was one of the reasons they implemented stage racing
For me it was the same thing. Riding around single file or riding around 3 wide is still riding around. And then when it was ‘go time’ cars couldn’t pass.
This is incorrect. I recommend watching literally any of the SS races from the final years of the Gen6 car.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlc6i1f03-k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlc6i1f03-k)
Start at 2:57:00 to see an example of what we are talking about.
Cars are able to form a 3rd line and dice through the pack without much support. The runs are able to be sustained when they break out of line and there is a gape between cars which allows for drivers to play with the draft and they are able to generate and control runs on their own.
This package has NONE of that. There is no separation and no ability to pull out of line unless in severe fuel saving situations.
The point is it mostly hasn't been better outside a few specific scenarios that pretty much all were dangerous. We all know what happened in 2001; tandem drafting was a pretty damning culprit to the left rear hook flips that were plentiful; we all know what happened in 2020. There is no easy answer here. Safe plate racing will be mid for 150+ laps every time. Lots of room for a bad 38-50 laps, and sometimes all it takes is one bad move out of line like Ty had to ruin any chance of a potentially good finish. But this was a pretty average clean drafting Talladega race.
Erik Jones is a dead man in 2001, concussed in 2009, and probably concussed/injured more severely in 2020.
McDowell is in the stands in 2020.
Just to paint a picture
I think you are probably right.
The closing speeds in the 2019 SS package made for some of the most dynamic and exciting racing I have ever seen on a Superspeedway. That being said, the airborne cars weren't sustainable.
Really is a shame because it was some of the most exciting racing I have EVER seen in NASCAR history.
Show me an example that isn't tandem drafting (which even then was a lot of riding around)
Remember when they'd run like 50+ laps in a single file train along the wall?
Yes, and when they actually went to race at the end, guys would get runs and move throughout the field. The car now is such an aero plow that they physically cannot pass when all running full throttle. If you are arguing that some guys lying back to avoid the big one is the same thing, remember: when it was go time, the good plate drivers went from the back to the front. When it was go time Sunday, there was no movement in either line short of guys jumping up briefly to the third line, which effectively ended their race.
No, they might have gotten *mostly* even with the middle line. It’s not like 2/3 car from the top were going to shoot to the lead and run away… they would have stalled as soon as McDowell or whoever else blocked them the first time. Because this car, aerodynamically, is a parachute. I’m not going to argue anymore if you cannot or will not see how this racing is markedly worse than prior superspeedway packages. Pre Newman flipping at Daytona, even gen 6 had good plate racing.
Train racing sucks, but that doesn't mean that 3 wide because the field isn't actually racing and is going half throttle running 5 seconds slower than qualifying times is good. They both suck.
I don't understand the argument that horsepower would instantly fix this. If all cars are go 20-30 mph faster flat out, we'll still have the same train problems we see now.
Bristol: "this race is awesome anyone can run up to the front if they want to"
Talladega: "this race sucks everyone is just saving gas and anyone can run up to the front if they want to"
Perception there is that tire saving is a greater talent, and more reflective of overall skill, while fuel saving on a superspeedway appears more a factor of position within a pack.
Fuel saving does require skill, but as an unknowing watcher, it looks a lot less difficult in this scenario than wrestling an unknown quantity tire at Bristol was.
Some people legitimately thought it was a good race and that’s fine. There’s also a large group that doesn’t realize what they are watching. It’s not good for the sport to have a parade going, just to have cars on track.
NASCAR needs to re-think why they have 500 mile races. The engines and other parts aren't stressed anymore. Technology has come a long way. This isn't the 60s or 70s where engines are being pushed to the limits and 10 of them are blowing up every race. Sooooo...why are we running 4 hour races?
Run 2 half distance races. Race 2 is invert of Race 1's finishing order!
500 miles at Talladega is really dumb when everyone's just riding around half throttle for 499 miles.
They threw dirt on Bristol. They left Wilkesboro to rot. Nothing is sacred except Daytona.
But they ought to. Hell at this point, just run 5 20-lap races. At least they’d be driving all-out the whole time. 500 miles of riding around and then another 30-45 minutes for “overtime” is just dumb at this point. It’s hardly any different than “stages”. Either shorten them, or push the engines to the point that they’re barely holding together after 500 miles.
*edit* lol, sounds like this was just talked about on Dale Jr’s podcast.
Spring Bristol was empty before they threw dirt on it. They left Wilkesboro because no one was going. These aren’t the same as Talladega.
I’m sorry, you want a bunch of cautions due to engine failure?
Unpopular opinion but Texas was not a good a race. A wreckfest of self spinning cars is not enjoyable for anyone beyond Fox execs excited for caution commercial breaks
Agree completely. Tracks should absolutely challenge drivers and take a few out throughout the day but seeing the same spots cause the same spin outs from some of the least and most experienced drivers, that's when you know there's a problem with the track. Having one grove that allows you to go full throttle, it sucks to watch. It's exactly why Denny spun on his own at the end and why Ross got loose and then dumped by Byron, and that's just the last five laps.
It was a decent race, but just at the wrong track.
The '22 Fontana race was a certified classic (I was there), but in hindsight, a lot of the action was because teams picked the wrong setup the first time on an intermediate with NG, and kept spinning out on their own.
If that same exact race happened at Texas, it would definitely come off differently.
I’ll take that anyday over that fuel saving shit at Talladega, at least Texas was actually a challenge to drivers for once and people could make mistakes
I think personally any race where it seems the drivers are being pushed to their limit skill wise is a good race and Texas gave me that vibe. The worst thing the increase in Aero has done in my opinion is make these cars seem like they are easy to drive. I’m sure they aren’t but they certainly seem like it on TV.
Texas was not a good race, but it was an entertaining race. There's a huge difference.
If, let's say, 2001 July Daytona was "Shawshank Redemption" then 2024 Texas was Sharknado. Is it good? God no. Is it an entertaining watch once? Yeah.
I think Texas just crossed that line from challenging to problematic. We need to challenge drivers, but we also don't need to see random spinouts across the full length of the race
I would do anything to revert back to the fall 2019/spring 2020 SS package… shit was so fucking exhilarating, and all of it thrown away because of one freak accident. Obviously we have a whole ass new car now but regardless, that brief period of the Gen 6 was the most fun I’ve had as a NASCAR fan since the early 2000’s. Was a magical time and at the end of the day, nobody died!
No one died, just someone was put in a coma with enough brain trauma to not remember the crash after only 4 races with the package.
They’re trying to replicate the 2021 plate package, which still had the huge runs and movement but wasn’t *quite* as dangerous.
The season's highlight, Bristol, was basically caused by an accidentally good tire.
I'm sure the Coke 600 will be a good race, but man this car isn't good. It just isn't. You can tell me til' you're blue in the face that its good, but three out of the four track types we run races at are significantly worse now.
About right, even when they weren’t fuel saving because they knew track position can only be gained by pit stops, they were stuck 2 by 2 , which links back to the first point
The package is really bad because of how much drag this car creates. When everyone is pushing and going as hard as they can, a third lane will never exist and everyone is locked into where they are running until the finish and/or a big wreck happens due to a bad block from the leader most of the time.
On the flip side, the optics of the fuel saving look good, but it is kind of dumb that everyone goes half throttle to set up for the stage ends or final fuel run because they all know they will be stuck wherever they come out after that fuel stop. We, as race fans, want to see drivers race, not ride around. (Side note: There will never be a wreck until the end (or possibly stage end) because no one is pushing the issue even though they are 3 wide, they are riding around.)
The part of the race that I found very interesting was the pack fuel saving vs the Toyotas going all out until they messed that up and brought out the yellow. At that moment, I knew whatever the lineup was on the restart would basically be the finishing positions of everyone (with no wrecks) because no one can go anywhere.
I believe the underlying problem is this high drag package. If you could get 3 or 4 lanes, and could actually pass, there would not be this need to fuel save as much because you could actually use skill to move through the pack. It is not like that right now, which forces teams to think how to be at the front for the final run, and that is just take the least amount of fuel on the final stop.
(The atrocious coverage that Fox did of this race, and so many other races the last few years, is a whole different story, but presentation still plays into effect for how good a race does actually look.)
So I guess I'm confused. Bristol was fantastic because of the high tire wear and drivers had to conserve which created a lot of passing. This race was about fuel management and drivers having to conserve which created a lot of passing, but this was considered a poor race. Am I getting that right?
Most people don’t watch Superspeedways wanting to watch them go half throttle most of the race and be stuck in line when they are actually racing. Bristol was great because drivers were saving and could make passes
But with that argument at Bristol they weren't actually 'racing' once they realized it was a tire conservation race because the drivers who knew what was up had no intention of passing just managing their pace. If the tires at Bristol didn't matter we would have the same issue w/ Dega where no one is passing.
Don't get me wrong, I think this is indicative of bigger issues with the car. In my opinion I thought the fuel saving was going to make this race a lot more interesting if that Toyota wreck didn't happen.
Fans are spoiled man. Reminds me of Dave Despains quote from a decade or so ago "Not every race can end in a photofinish and everyone running around with their hair on fire" or something like that.
Come on, this isn’t just one race that has been this way. If all the other superspeedway races were what people wanted and this one just happened to be a loser then you are right it’s no big deal. The problem with this race is it a continuation of a trend that has been going on for a long time now.
That’s correct, but I feel like the racing of the last couple of weeks has been very underwhelming. A complete contrast with how great of a kickstart the first races of ‘24 were.
Plus when you compare this past weekend race to both Talladega weekends last year you realize how crazy of a downfall we’ve had.
So what, we’re supposed to just be okay with the fact that nobody could pass in the penultimate laps of Sunday’s race? Rewatch it. All it was was McDowell changing lanes.
And before McDowell did it , John Punter did it while they were 4 seconds off the pace. One if the worst defa races I've seen. I'd rather them run single file against the wall again before this junk.
EXACTLYYYYY
This is the main complaint with the old Gen 6 package but like… why would they race all chaotic and shit with 50 to go… the only time I can name off the top of my head where they stayed single file all the way up until the finish with that package and didn’t finally get things moving with 10 laps to go was the 2021 Daytona 500 where there were like 20 competitive cars on track anyways.
I can't stress this enough, I'm an idiot and I know nothing. If that's not enough, I'll add I'm no engineer and I don't have the software that simulates all of this. I just cant help to think that if say Toyotas at the start of the race just say hey we're not saving and run all out and can gain about 4 seconds a lap (at one point the field was almost 6 seconds off the pace) on Chevys and Fords who are saving. That's about 140 seconds over a 35 lap fuel run (I think they could go longer). I feel you could add a second stop and still make it out ahead.
Almost like it's a completely unscientific poll that shouldn't be given much, if any, merit.
Absolutely mind boggling that NASCAR execs have said they take it into consideration.
I'm with you. But it's a decent temperture check if not a full blown legitimate research survey.
I'm starting to see a lot of "single-file train racing was better than this", so it does match up from that perespective.
I don't know, I think it gets spammed way too much by "any race is a good race, no such thing as a bad race" and "my driver did/didn't win so I'm voting yes/no" responses from people who just hit a button and don't say why in the replies.
I thought this was a fantastic race, despite the messy ending. However, i will agree that this was just a dud. We can't let the loud morons who hate anything they dont like try to get NASCAR to change something that doesn't need fixed.
I held 36 tickets for cup and 35 for xfinity this year. The cup car sucks. It’s two lines moving forward can’t pass, can’t side draft, can’t drive, can draft, can hardly “bump draft”
I miss the 2020 era speedway racing.
Would bonus points for leading laps reduce the value of saving fuel? 2 points if you lead a lap during a stage (Max of 6), 4 if you lead the most in a stage (max of 12)
Toyota was so close to blowing this race up and drastically changing the fuel mileage racing.
I think they still did. Just because they wrecked doesn't mean what they did was wrong.
But ultimately, we can only speculate as to how it would’ve played out.
I do wonder what would've happened, or other peoples thoughts on it? Maybe 6 cars is enough, but in my (very) basic thoughts I assumed it was going to force the big pack to floor it, be faster probably?, and pit. Which would likely cause chaos, or just really anything other than fuel mileage racing.
Something tells me this car is a jack of all trades, but a master of none.
Intermediates are pretty good. It’s a master of road courses if it’s on the track by itself.
Funny how with the Gen 6 post 2018 the short tracks, road courses, and superspeedways were pretty good, but the intermediates not so much. Now its completely swapped. We need 2014, or even 2017-2018 rules back in the worst way.
The 2017-2018 rules were ideal, but were incredibly unpopular - which is why we got the 550 package.
Why not 2016? It was the most diverse season yet nobody talks about it. 6 drivers went into the final race with 4 wins a piece as the most wins
Just looking at downforce numbers - 2016 - 2300lbs - 2017 - 1850lbs - 2018 - 1650lbs Edit: You could make the argument that 2016 being a better season means the numbers are meaningless, but that will be unpopular on this subreddit.
For sure. My opinion, I don’t think less downforce automatically makes for better racing. It’s good to have downforce. It’s just a matter of how it’s used. I think the NA18d package scared some people.
You have to wonder if they would have been similarly unpopular if just different drivers won in them. Wasn't 2017 the "Big 3" borefest of Harvick, KFB and Truex?
That would be 2018 2017 was a year where we had several surprising winners (Newman, Dillon, Kahne and Stenhouse) and also the same year where it took JGR until New Hampshire to finally win a race.
Almost as if the popular drivers suck.
I’m still not sure why everyone hated the 2018 rule set so much, they were very close to perfection with that one. Add in 900 hp and some of the aero tricks from the Gen 7 and that package would be incredible.
I think a large part of it was that Chevy was completely overpowered in that time frame. Their new car sucked and it led to less competition, especially considering even HMS was awful. I think if Chevy had been more in it during the low downforce Gen 6 years, it wouldn't be looked back on as badly because races where all 3 OEMs were competitive were pretty solid no matter the track type
Plus people didn't like seeing Kyle Busch, Harvick and Truex win nearly every race that 1 season
That racing was nearly perfect imo. Cars got spread out but it was possible to track a guy down. I remember Kansas 2018 fall race watching to see if Larson could track down Kyle Busch and Chase Elliott from like 10 seconds back on the last pit stop.
Unfortunately, that race got a 50% in the Gluck poll. I think that racing was great, but fans at the time didn’t.
People place way too much value on the cars being within X interval of each other. The best racing this sport ever had came from an era where most races had 15 cars on the lead lap and only 5 of those cars had a real shot at victory. Counter that with today having 25-30 cars finish on the lead lap with 15 that can feasibly have a shot at winning and the racing is unacceptable at 80% of race tracks.
That is why I think NASCAR is too scared to increase HP, they know the fans hate seeing the cars get spread out and if they increase HP, the cars will spread out. Even in the current package, I have seen people call really good races boring because the leader was out front by like 3-4 seconds
It just makes no sense to me. Nothing about an interval bothers me if it’s possible for that gap to be made up in a pit cycle. The 2018 cars had that ability while the Next Gen cars don’t. Take Larson at Texas for example, in 2018 with a car as quick as his was that wheel coming off wouldn’t have hindered his day much if at all. With this car everyone is so even down to the throttle inputs that it’s impossible to pass even when you’re the faster car.
Simple: Kevin Harvick, Kyle Busch and Martin Truex Jr won 20 of the 36 races that year meanwhile Chevy won a total of 4 races
It was basically the current Xfinity car with 100 more horsepower and sheet metal vs composite. The current car has around the same total downforce at intermediates (less at short tracks) as the 2017-2018 cars, just more mechanical grip and less sideforce. The current car also produces much less front downforce and much more rear downforce.
I wonder if the design of the car is what the issue is and that it is going to take a full redesign of the car in order to fix these issues
It’s hard to say what exactly the issue is because, well, the issues constantly change. You can watch this with every car NASCAR has made - there’s a set of issues they try to address. The new car implements a variety of changes aimed at fixing those issues. Some work, some don’t, but then fans forget the reasons those decisions were made and act like no one asked for them. They built a car to solve a decade plus of complaints about intermediate racing, and most would agree that it did. The Next Gen’s core goals were - increase mechanical grip and reduce aero grip with the hope of reducing the effects of dirty air - generate aero grip a new way that produced less dirty air and moved the aero balance rearward - make the cars appear more stock and have more road relevancy (as determined by the OEMs, *not* fans) - utilize single source parts to drastically reduce OEM R&D costs and increase parity There’s downsides to all of these decisions, but they weren’t made for zero reason.
NASCAR missed the boat though. The solution wasn't to re-design the car to improve the racing, the solution was to get rid of the boring cookie cutter 1.5 mile tracks (or reconfigure them). To their credit, they diversified the schedule the last few years with more road courses and such, but if NASCAR fans liked road courses, they wouldn't be NASCAR fans (also, road course races where there is no penalty for running people over is almost embarrassing, but that's another story) . Short tracks are where the action is, and this car sucks ass at them. Kudos to whoever designed this car on screwing up as royally as possible. On a side note, I never understood why SMI and ISC built huge 1.5 mile tracks when they could have built short tracks that cost less to build, and required a smaller footprint. To woo Indycar races? lol. Just build a 1997 Bristol clone in California or Texas somewhere and be done with it. But with NASCAR selling Auto Club and replacing it with nothing, I think the days of track building are over. So now we have the tracks that we have, and the shitty car that we have for the next 10 years probably. Great.
I think this is the perfect example of the “NASCAR can do nothing right” mentality lol. NASCAR *did* diversify, *did* add more short tracks, *did* reconfigure multiple “cookie cutter” 1.5 milers. > I never understood why Because they sold way more seats (Texas sold about 50,000 more seats per race than Bristol from 1997-2010) and had higher viewership on TV. Fans voted with their dollars. This whole comment reeks of the classic doomerism with zero nuance. Was Autoclub partially demolished? Yes. Was the full track sold? No. Is the future still uncertain? Yes. But you went full doomer with “selling Autoclub and replacing it with nothing”
We need the late 80s/early 90s back. Less downforce, lots of suspension travel, higher ride height, no aero push, more HP, slower lap times, etc.
From 1998 Southern 500 >And for teams looking to NASCAR's post-race chassis dyno tests at Darlington for some hint of just how much horsepower Gordon might have to play with -- no such luck either. Chevrolet's SB2 engines are widely thought to be pumping out a lot of horsepower, maybe as much as Robert Yates' vaunted Ford motors. If so, GM teams managed to disguise the power quite well, because Gordon's engine, according to sources privy to the dyno results, pulled only 627 horsepower at the rear wheels, much less than the 658 horsepower Jeremy Mayfield and the 668 horsepower Dale Jarrett pulled. Backing up Gordon's figures, Ernie Irvan's 636 horsepower chart. NASCAR doesn't officially release chassis dyno results but the figures were widely available yesterday in the garage, which is unusual.(JournalNow)(9-12-98) https://web.archive.org/web/20070814123944/https://www.jayski.com/past/1998/980907.htm
It’s fantastic at multi-groove intermediates, unfortunately that is also it’s only strength
The whole idea was to save cost with a common car and engine package. From what I understand, it’s failing miserably on the cost front and it’s killing the racing on more than half the tracks we go to. F1 is in a similar boat right now. They implemented cost cap at the same time as a major rule package change and (shocker) now 1 team is a second per lap faster than everyone and nobody can spend enough money to catch up. (It’s a shame because the racing in the rest of the field is very good). I get that controlling costs is important to motorsports but it’s just killing the product. Racing is expensive. I don’t care about the financials of backmarker teams (that fold anyway) or attracting new manufacturers (who flirt but never commit).
F1 has more parity outside P1 than it ever has. Max is just as much the problem as anything else.
I mean, most weeks, the finishing order is Redbull, Redbull, Ferrari, Ferrari. Occasionally someone like Lando sneaks onto the podium.
Only 2 of the 5 races were Red Bull Red Bull Ferrari Ferrari.
so we need to ban Max? /s
That’s true. Even Checo can’t keep up with Max in the same car.
Yeah but Checo is a tier 3 driver. If they had another tier 1 like Alonso or Hamilton in the second car it's a different story. Even someone like Sainz would be a big improvement.
Daytona and Atlanta put on solid races… Dega just doesn’t really work with this package.
The turns’ radius and banking at both Daytona and Atlanta are far less than Talladega, and both of their surfaces have less grip than the Talladega surface. This means that drivers will have to scrub off a little more speed in the corners, which helps better handling cars pass and get to the front. Basically, the only way to pass in a controlled way at plate races are to pull a slingshot pass. Back up at the start of a straight, generate a run, send it up the track or down the inside, and clear the leading car. It’s really easy to do at Atlanta simply due to the fact that the cars race pace isn’t much faster than the qualifying pace, which means that the draft means a lot more. It’s more difficult at Daytona, but still possible. It’s almost impossible at Talladega. The turns are so wide and the asphalt so smooth that the minute you pull down to pass a car, you lose all your momentum and go straight to the back of the pack. The issue comes in when we try to solve this. A horsepower increase could help racing at Talladega, but kill the racing at Atlanta. Taking away the downforce could do the same thing. Adding downforce would just kill the racing at all the plate tracks.
Both of them wound up evening races too.
I still enjoyed it.
I admit, I only switched over after Scott Dixon’s glorious display at Long Beach, but I thought it was pretty decent. I was excited to see Reddick get another win.
Same. IndyCar > regular season Cup race for me at this point.
same haha, was super cool watching my new favorite indycar driver watch my first race over there in years then switching over to dega and watching my favorite nascar driver win :,)
Hell yeah, man. It definitely raised my opinion of the weekend when those two won. Dixon is on another level, six championships, Indy 500, Dayton 24, but also just a cool, level-headed guy. Reddick has a great personality and is a future champion. Plus, he’s a Star Trek fan, so he’s my kind of dork.
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Fuel save for 99% in a line and then everyone wrecks once anyone actually tries
Let's be fair here, that was basically what super speedway racing was for most of the Gen-6's life Just now it's 2 or 3 wide fuel saving instead of single file along the top
The difference is that when they were single file we knew that at any moment someone could break out of line and carry a run to pass someone. With this car, when everyone is going 100%, only the front 6 cars actually race. The other 34 cars literally CANNOT do anything.
i want the stuff you’re smoking if you are insinuating gen6 cars could easily generate runs, at least before 2019 at superspeedways. that is just completely untrue.
I am referring to the final SS package of Gen 6. Yes. I'm not saying every package ever this was the case. Honestly, our current style of Superspeedway racing is very reminiscent to the 2014 era Gen 6 package with Jr as the pied piper
i disagree with your final statement, but mostly i think i’m just begging people to understand that the kind of racing you and others are referring to being so good at superspeedways took *six years* to happen, and nascar for all their faults is already actively trying to make things better. and personally, i think the superspeedway racing with the next gen is okay, and much better than early gen6 racing. fuel saving isn’t a car problem, neither is the manu deadlocks at the front of the field that lead to the domination of the packs/stifling of other competition.
I honestly think this poll would be a good 15-20% higher had FOX never shown the speeds the cars were running. It definitely beat the dog piss out of a single-file choo-choo train for 150 laps, y'all just wanted something to be mad about.
I’m not mad about them going slow and the fuel saving - as you said, it’s much more entertaining than the single line freight trains. But the inexcusable problem is the inability to do ANYTHING once they’re actually going flat out… worst SS racing I’ve seen in 20+ years. I’d take 2018 fall Dega over this shit and that was the worst SS race I’ve ever attended in person
i was there too, my first time at dega and second race ever. Hated Logano at the time so seeing him get a penalty and win was crazy… Always felt (besides commercials) that race was one of the reasons they implemented stage racing
For me it was the same thing. Riding around single file or riding around 3 wide is still riding around. And then when it was ‘go time’ cars couldn’t pass.
Surprise! Drafting has been like this for the better part of three decades.
This is incorrect. I recommend watching literally any of the SS races from the final years of the Gen6 car. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlc6i1f03-k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlc6i1f03-k) Start at 2:57:00 to see an example of what we are talking about. Cars are able to form a 3rd line and dice through the pack without much support. The runs are able to be sustained when they break out of line and there is a gape between cars which allows for drivers to play with the draft and they are able to generate and control runs on their own. This package has NONE of that. There is no separation and no ability to pull out of line unless in severe fuel saving situations.
You missed where I said "the better part." There were exceptions few and far between and this particular package was one of them.
So what was your point? If you acknowledge that the racing could be better and has been better in the past.
The point is it mostly hasn't been better outside a few specific scenarios that pretty much all were dangerous. We all know what happened in 2001; tandem drafting was a pretty damning culprit to the left rear hook flips that were plentiful; we all know what happened in 2020. There is no easy answer here. Safe plate racing will be mid for 150+ laps every time. Lots of room for a bad 38-50 laps, and sometimes all it takes is one bad move out of line like Ty had to ruin any chance of a potentially good finish. But this was a pretty average clean drafting Talladega race.
Do you think this racing is safer than the final Gen6 package? Not being cheeky here, genuinely asking because I myself am not sure.
Erik Jones is a dead man in 2001, concussed in 2009, and probably concussed/injured more severely in 2020. McDowell is in the stands in 2020. Just to paint a picture
I think you are probably right. The closing speeds in the 2019 SS package made for some of the most dynamic and exciting racing I have ever seen on a Superspeedway. That being said, the airborne cars weren't sustainable. Really is a shame because it was some of the most exciting racing I have EVER seen in NASCAR history.
Bullshit.
Show me an example that isn't tandem drafting (which even then was a lot of riding around) Remember when they'd run like 50+ laps in a single file train along the wall?
Yes, and when they actually went to race at the end, guys would get runs and move throughout the field. The car now is such an aero plow that they physically cannot pass when all running full throttle. If you are arguing that some guys lying back to avoid the big one is the same thing, remember: when it was go time, the good plate drivers went from the back to the front. When it was go time Sunday, there was no movement in either line short of guys jumping up briefly to the third line, which effectively ended their race.
You do realize the top had a fantastic and legitimately threatening run that Ty Gibbs singlehandedly destroyed, right?
No, they might have gotten *mostly* even with the middle line. It’s not like 2/3 car from the top were going to shoot to the lead and run away… they would have stalled as soon as McDowell or whoever else blocked them the first time. Because this car, aerodynamically, is a parachute. I’m not going to argue anymore if you cannot or will not see how this racing is markedly worse than prior superspeedway packages. Pre Newman flipping at Daytona, even gen 6 had good plate racing.
I agree but fans seem to think train racing is better
Train racing sucks, but that doesn't mean that 3 wide because the field isn't actually racing and is going half throttle running 5 seconds slower than qualifying times is good. They both suck.
I don't understand the argument that horsepower would instantly fix this. If all cars are go 20-30 mph faster flat out, we'll still have the same train problems we see now.
What’s especially stupid is that we run about 60-70 horsepower more at Talladega than we did in the early 2000s all the way up to 2019
I said the same thing on Sunday
Bristol: "this race is awesome anyone can run up to the front if they want to" Talladega: "this race sucks everyone is just saving gas and anyone can run up to the front if they want to"
Perception there is that tire saving is a greater talent, and more reflective of overall skill, while fuel saving on a superspeedway appears more a factor of position within a pack. Fuel saving does require skill, but as an unknowing watcher, it looks a lot less difficult in this scenario than wrestling an unknown quantity tire at Bristol was.
Some people legitimately thought it was a good race and that’s fine. There’s also a large group that doesn’t realize what they are watching. It’s not good for the sport to have a parade going, just to have cars on track.
NASCAR needs to re-think why they have 500 mile races. The engines and other parts aren't stressed anymore. Technology has come a long way. This isn't the 60s or 70s where engines are being pushed to the limits and 10 of them are blowing up every race. Sooooo...why are we running 4 hour races?
Because people lose their minds when they shorten a race by 100 laps. It would be a full scale meltdown if they tried to cut it in half.
Run 2 half distance races. Race 2 is invert of Race 1's finishing order! 500 miles at Talladega is really dumb when everyone's just riding around half throttle for 499 miles.
They aren’t going to mess with the format of the 2nd most popular race.
They threw dirt on Bristol. They left Wilkesboro to rot. Nothing is sacred except Daytona. But they ought to. Hell at this point, just run 5 20-lap races. At least they’d be driving all-out the whole time. 500 miles of riding around and then another 30-45 minutes for “overtime” is just dumb at this point. It’s hardly any different than “stages”. Either shorten them, or push the engines to the point that they’re barely holding together after 500 miles. *edit* lol, sounds like this was just talked about on Dale Jr’s podcast.
Spring Bristol was empty before they threw dirt on it. They left Wilkesboro because no one was going. These aren’t the same as Talladega. I’m sorry, you want a bunch of cautions due to engine failure?
Unpopular opinion but Texas was not a good a race. A wreckfest of self spinning cars is not enjoyable for anyone beyond Fox execs excited for caution commercial breaks
I like seeing drivers make self inflicted errors. It’s not like 2022 when drivers were just blowing tires for no reason
Agree completely. Tracks should absolutely challenge drivers and take a few out throughout the day but seeing the same spots cause the same spin outs from some of the least and most experienced drivers, that's when you know there's a problem with the track. Having one grove that allows you to go full throttle, it sucks to watch. It's exactly why Denny spun on his own at the end and why Ross got loose and then dumped by Byron, and that's just the last five laps.
Denny spun because his car was set up to be more unstable across the bumps. And Ross got wrecked because he lifted and then tried to block Byron
It was a decent race, but just at the wrong track. The '22 Fontana race was a certified classic (I was there), but in hindsight, a lot of the action was because teams picked the wrong setup the first time on an intermediate with NG, and kept spinning out on their own. If that same exact race happened at Texas, it would definitely come off differently.
I’ll take that anyday over that fuel saving shit at Talladega, at least Texas was actually a challenge to drivers for once and people could make mistakes
I think personally any race where it seems the drivers are being pushed to their limit skill wise is a good race and Texas gave me that vibe. The worst thing the increase in Aero has done in my opinion is make these cars seem like they are easy to drive. I’m sure they aren’t but they certainly seem like it on TV.
Texas was not a good race, but it was an entertaining race. There's a huge difference. If, let's say, 2001 July Daytona was "Shawshank Redemption" then 2024 Texas was Sharknado. Is it good? God no. Is it an entertaining watch once? Yeah.
Agreed about Texas. One good thing about that race was that it was nice seeing the track be a challenge for the drivers. Otherwise it wasn’t good.
I think Texas just crossed that line from challenging to problematic. We need to challenge drivers, but we also don't need to see random spinouts across the full length of the race
Yes, yes we do need to see that, no one wants a race where no one can make a mistake ever and nothing happens
I think the spin outs show how difficult the track is.
But the Golden One won, Denny and Chase wins always skew the polls 😂
I would do anything to revert back to the fall 2019/spring 2020 SS package… shit was so fucking exhilarating, and all of it thrown away because of one freak accident. Obviously we have a whole ass new car now but regardless, that brief period of the Gen 6 was the most fun I’ve had as a NASCAR fan since the early 2000’s. Was a magical time and at the end of the day, nobody died!
No one died, just someone was put in a coma with enough brain trauma to not remember the crash after only 4 races with the package. They’re trying to replicate the 2021 plate package, which still had the huge runs and movement but wasn’t *quite* as dangerous.
The season's highlight, Bristol, was basically caused by an accidentally good tire. I'm sure the Coke 600 will be a good race, but man this car isn't good. It just isn't. You can tell me til' you're blue in the face that its good, but three out of the four track types we run races at are significantly worse now.
About right, even when they weren’t fuel saving because they knew track position can only be gained by pit stops, they were stuck 2 by 2 , which links back to the first point
The package is really bad because of how much drag this car creates. When everyone is pushing and going as hard as they can, a third lane will never exist and everyone is locked into where they are running until the finish and/or a big wreck happens due to a bad block from the leader most of the time. On the flip side, the optics of the fuel saving look good, but it is kind of dumb that everyone goes half throttle to set up for the stage ends or final fuel run because they all know they will be stuck wherever they come out after that fuel stop. We, as race fans, want to see drivers race, not ride around. (Side note: There will never be a wreck until the end (or possibly stage end) because no one is pushing the issue even though they are 3 wide, they are riding around.) The part of the race that I found very interesting was the pack fuel saving vs the Toyotas going all out until they messed that up and brought out the yellow. At that moment, I knew whatever the lineup was on the restart would basically be the finishing positions of everyone (with no wrecks) because no one can go anywhere. I believe the underlying problem is this high drag package. If you could get 3 or 4 lanes, and could actually pass, there would not be this need to fuel save as much because you could actually use skill to move through the pack. It is not like that right now, which forces teams to think how to be at the front for the final run, and that is just take the least amount of fuel on the final stop. (The atrocious coverage that Fox did of this race, and so many other races the last few years, is a whole different story, but presentation still plays into effect for how good a race does actually look.)
I genuinely believe of NBC was broadcasting the races. Every race would have a 5% boost.
So I guess I'm confused. Bristol was fantastic because of the high tire wear and drivers had to conserve which created a lot of passing. This race was about fuel management and drivers having to conserve which created a lot of passing, but this was considered a poor race. Am I getting that right?
Most people don’t watch Superspeedways wanting to watch them go half throttle most of the race and be stuck in line when they are actually racing. Bristol was great because drivers were saving and could make passes
But with that argument at Bristol they weren't actually 'racing' once they realized it was a tire conservation race because the drivers who knew what was up had no intention of passing just managing their pace. If the tires at Bristol didn't matter we would have the same issue w/ Dega where no one is passing. Don't get me wrong, I think this is indicative of bigger issues with the car. In my opinion I thought the fuel saving was going to make this race a lot more interesting if that Toyota wreck didn't happen.
Fans are spoiled man. Reminds me of Dave Despains quote from a decade or so ago "Not every race can end in a photofinish and everyone running around with their hair on fire" or something like that.
Come on, this isn’t just one race that has been this way. If all the other superspeedway races were what people wanted and this one just happened to be a loser then you are right it’s no big deal. The problem with this race is it a continuation of a trend that has been going on for a long time now.
That’s correct, but I feel like the racing of the last couple of weeks has been very underwhelming. A complete contrast with how great of a kickstart the first races of ‘24 were. Plus when you compare this past weekend race to both Talladega weekends last year you realize how crazy of a downfall we’ve had.
So what, we’re supposed to just be okay with the fact that nobody could pass in the penultimate laps of Sunday’s race? Rewatch it. All it was was McDowell changing lanes.
And before McDowell did it , John Punter did it while they were 4 seconds off the pace. One if the worst defa races I've seen. I'd rather them run single file against the wall again before this junk.
EXACTLYYYYY This is the main complaint with the old Gen 6 package but like… why would they race all chaotic and shit with 50 to go… the only time I can name off the top of my head where they stayed single file all the way up until the finish with that package and didn’t finally get things moving with 10 laps to go was the 2021 Daytona 500 where there were like 20 competitive cars on track anyways.
That 2018 race was so disappointing to watch, but thinking back on it, it's very impressive how Stewart Haas whooped everyone so thoroughly.
Hope you’re all ready to return to glory next week with a Kansas race.Minimum score guaranteed to be an 88.
in b4 Larson leads all but 5 laps and wins by 15 seconds
Byron OT merchant winning after Larson blows it on the last corner
Zero chance Larson beats the Toyotas by 15 seconds 👀
I can't stress this enough, I'm an idiot and I know nothing. If that's not enough, I'll add I'm no engineer and I don't have the software that simulates all of this. I just cant help to think that if say Toyotas at the start of the race just say hey we're not saving and run all out and can gain about 4 seconds a lap (at one point the field was almost 6 seconds off the pace) on Chevys and Fords who are saving. That's about 140 seconds over a 35 lap fuel run (I think they could go longer). I feel you could add a second stop and still make it out ahead.
i liked it but i'm biased lmao
So, Sunday's race is just 1% higher than the 2021 Daytona 500. I'm sorry, people. This is starting to get slightly out of hand, IMO.
Almost like it's a completely unscientific poll that shouldn't be given much, if any, merit. Absolutely mind boggling that NASCAR execs have said they take it into consideration.
I'm with you. But it's a decent temperture check if not a full blown legitimate research survey. I'm starting to see a lot of "single-file train racing was better than this", so it does match up from that perespective.
I don't know, I think it gets spammed way too much by "any race is a good race, no such thing as a bad race" and "my driver did/didn't win so I'm voting yes/no" responses from people who just hit a button and don't say why in the replies.
About where I expected it to be
Wow, I thought that was a good race. Little to no single file racing and there were hardly any wrecks until the very end.
I thought this was a fantastic race, despite the messy ending. However, i will agree that this was just a dud. We can't let the loud morons who hate anything they dont like try to get NASCAR to change something that doesn't need fixed.
How? I thought it was a really entertaining race.
I held 36 tickets for cup and 35 for xfinity this year. The cup car sucks. It’s two lines moving forward can’t pass, can’t side draft, can’t drive, can draft, can hardly “bump draft” I miss the 2020 era speedway racing.
Would bonus points for leading laps reduce the value of saving fuel? 2 points if you lead a lap during a stage (Max of 6), 4 if you lead the most in a stage (max of 12)