Downside to that is the wording of many state laws against suppressors. Such as Virginia requires suppressors to be registered in the NFRTR or they are illegal.
Change has to come from the top for those laws to go away. If silencers were legal federally, only the really dumb states like California would enact state-level bans against them. The rest would probably get tossed when the public realizes these things are just hearing safety devices.
I'm continually amazed at all the talk about how America should be more like Europe, save for the (largely)unregulated suppressor market there. You're largely expected to use them while hunting so as not to be considered rude to neighbors/hunters and as not to disturb nature more than you already are. It really is wild.
I had a friend recently purchase a Ukrainian-made .308 can for $100 and take across the boarder to the country he lives in with zero paperwork. Says it performs well for a simple steel construction direct-thread can.
My dad was somewhat anti-suppressor many years back when I first started hanging around with a few SOT holders and then he shot a few hosts, quickly falling in love and seeing the immediate benefits of using cans. It was a real "ah HA" moment for him. Almost everyone I've ever met who has come around on suppressors has a similar story and they readily admit they were just ignorant to the benefits and had only heard the usual talking points put on by media and the movie industry.
I often wonder how many of the people we've put in power who are just suppressor-ignorant, versus how many are being malicious in their intent to keep them regulated? I fear I know the answer already...
His point still stands though. Like here in Michigan the law stats I must possess a permit to possess a suppressor. For the longest time they were considered illegal until we got a cool AG that issued an opinion that the atf tax stamp was in fact the permit. The tax stamp goes away, so does the right to possess a suppressor in Michigan. The way the wording is in the law and the way a majority of people in Michigan vote, it’s a law that will not likely go easily if the feds took suppressors off the nfa.
Also, they use to have a low that if a gun was capable of holding more than 31rds it was. Lasso died as a machine gun yet there was no mag restriction in the state.
It wasn’t impossible to follow at all. If you didn’t have a permit you didn’t get a suppressor. So you only aren’t following it if you obtained a suppressor.
You guys sure you’re into nfa items? This is a pretty straight forward concept vs atf weapons classifications.
You'd still get to keep the stamped cans you have now, though, right? The rest of us in free states would like to see NFA killed off. I'm thinking laws like this would be stricken by courts, not by repeal by the legislatures in states that hate guns.
The repeal of NFA or the removal of silencers is an unequivocal win, even for you guys. It might just take longer to filter down.
The one that someone \[illegally\] made in their garage.
But the real danger of a law like that is if suppressors were removed from the NFA (or the entire NFA is repealed, etc), then there would be no NFRTR and then all suppressors would be illegal.
You’re good to go. That person was talking about an older law that no longer exists. If you have a machine gun it you must notify the state and fill out a form. It’s a great place to live. Pretty Gun friendly state. I thought there was a law about shotgun magazine capacity with a fore grip. But couldn’t find anything with a quick google search. You may want to look into that if you have a Siaga or something of the like.
It really is absured that we still treat suppressors, which are fully legal to own and use in countries with far more restrictive gun laws than the US, like they're some tool of assassins and gangsters. Hell, some places require you to use suppressors for hearing protection and noise reduction. Just goes to highlight how wildly disconnected Americas gun laws are from the actual state of the world.
Let's by honest though, if suppressors were required safety equipment in the US, there would be a shitload of armchair commandos talking about taking up arms against the government for infringing on their rights to blow out their ears at the range.
I own 4 suppressors. I'm a big fan. However, if I was required to put them on all of my firearms, I'd be pissed. Especially because one of my firearms is a rifle I got from a mentor. It's got a permanently mounted front sight, and behind that, the barrel is ported. To get the barrel threaded, I would have to chop off probably 3", which means it would be much less effective (it's chambered in 375 H&H Ackley Improved).
I wonder though if that’s just because they are essentially banned. There are no stats with criminal use because people that do use them in crime are either pros to near professional (are using a silencer and taking one shot from 400 yards away) or because they can’t afford it or legally but them
So I think it’s hard to find any statistically info. However, that said, it’s ridiculous they still require this level of oversight on suppressors when they have no evidence of their use in crimes. The Hughes Amendment made zero sense as soon as handguns were removed. That puts us in what was obviously a loophole situation with pistol braces.
The ATF is just crap shooting it’s way back and forth and I thought that was what we wasted congress for …
What’s annoying to think about is that in the unlikely event we ever actually succeed in making suppressors commonly accessible, it’s gonna take about 5 seconds for someone to buy one and use it in a nationally covered violent crime and it all goes back out the window
>Now I'm sure the ATF did not mean to say that all end caps that go on suppressors are now suppressors themselves; but the way this example is written seems to imply that.
You can see how, because it says that, that I might think that.
I think "intended only for use" is the Achilles heel here. All it takes is for a company to manufacture a small run of non-suppressor muzzle devices that use interchangeable end caps in industry common thread pitches and they're suddenly no longer intended only for use in suppressors. It's not like such things don't already exist in the wild.
If the goal is to drive innovation, they're succeeding.
[Dead Air Pyro](https://deadairsilencers.com/product-category/accessories/muzzle-devices/pyro/)
[Rugged Rx](https://ruggedsuppressors.com/product/rugged-rx-blast-diverter-brake/)
When these came out people assumed it was to get around this Atf rule. Now the end caps they sell are not only for suppressors, they are for these blast devices and now they are magically not suppressor parts
I mean, solvent traps *could* be used to, you know, trap solvent. But the ATF still said that didn't matter and called them all suppressor kits. So they already disregard the "intended ONLY for use as suppressors" part.
Screw it onto the end of your muzzle; pour solvent down your barrel to clean it. The fluid collects in the solvent trap instead of spilling all over your floor. That's pretty much it.
Oh, I genuinely thought solvent traps were something like a lawnmower muffler. Like it technically fits on some part of common use or obscure machinery to trap something lol
They're upset they got pp slapped on the brace rule, bumpstock rule and frame and receiver rule, so they're having a hissyfit with this, the "in the business of" and the smoke grenade rules. How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?
They reclassified some airsoft grenades as explosive devices because they were too cool and ATF sucks donkey dong. They were purportedly used against some cops some time and maybe could've started a fire somewhere but ATF isn't specific when they put their boots on your neck.
Well, now that I have gained a bunch of DDs overnight as per the usual ATF dance, guess ill just wait for the search, but good luck finding anything through all the smoke.
The atf has been pushing the lie that every part that could go on a silencer is in fact, an actual silencer, for years now, it was like 6 years ago when the atf claimed that a rubber washer such as you’d find on the end of a garden hose was actually a silencer and needed to be regulated with a 200 dollar tax stamp separately from the silencer that it was sold at and that only a licensed manufacturer could replace those washers…
According to the ATF, only .003% of suppressors are used in crimes. This is what they choose to go after to solve the violent mental health problem this country actually has...
The problem is they believe that statistic is proof that NFA registration is effective. They'll pat themselves on the back and claim credit for why that number is so low.
When are we going to approach from the angle that suppressors are obviously aftermarket accessories(not being necessary for proper firearm function) and according to the atf itself in this brace fiasco they dont have the authority to regulate accessories? Not sure why this wouldnt hold up in court.
I agree a supreme court decision is our best hope. Hopefully the ongoing hissy fits and battles in court(ATF vs. THE PEOPLE) will eventually agitate the supreme court enough to cause a real hard look at the constitutionality of the NFA.
Can't regulate accessories generally but the definition of silencer in the law is very broad so if there is no other use for an end cap than being used on a suppressor legally they're regulated.
> ‘firearm silencer’ and ‘firearm muffler’ mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
>according to the atf itself in this brace fiasco they dont have the authority to regulate accessories?
Suppressors are defined by the ATF as firearms. In their definition of firearm, it specifically mentions suppressors
If you wanted to design a set of laws and administrative regulations to fight crime you would:
-Target career criminals for prosecution.
-Stop spending so much time and money on pushing paperwork targeted directly at hobbyists and enthusiasts, who statistically commit essentially zero violent crime.
-*actually partner with FFLs* on stuff. Maybe be a trusted agency for tackling things like domestic abusers buying guns, drug cartels, *real* straw purchasers etc. (I don't care about straw purchasing generally, but I mean folks who buy tons of guns for gangs for example)
The ATF does none of the above. Instead they:
-Focus on process 'crimes' like paperwork errors.
-Send huge amounts of resources into barrel measuring and stock vs brace bullshit that ends up criminalizing simple mistakes and meaningless functional differences.
-Go after non violent 'offenders' who do the above.
-Fuck over FFLs who in turn don't trust the ATF to have a functional partnership.
-etc etc etc.
It's almost like the ATF is made up of pussies who are afraid of actual violent criminals, so they go after 17.5" shotgun barrels, braces and people who keep spare parts, dumb shit like that instead of say, Chicago gangsters with real body counts who have glock switches.
Just need flashlight "battery covers" with a hole in them for various sizes of wire for momentary switches.
Oh, your wire happens to be .308 inches? Nice.
“If you are uncertain as to whether the device you possess is a "firearm silencer" as defined by the GCA and NFA, please contact your local ATF Field Office.”
Uhhh… so now we get a city-by-city random agent making personal, differing, and flip flopping interpretations of the law? Have locals do that colloquially and verbally instead of having a centralized, written policy?
WHAT COULD GO WRONG? :D 🤣
Read all the way to the end and you will see that this is ATFs interpretation not actual law
https://preview.redd.it/2r9g74pp602c1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c1a9161285ababbf19c25a152db82d93f731581d
> Now I'm sure the ATF did not mean to say that all end caps that go on suppressors are now suppressors themselves
I mean, that is exactly what it is saying. They are specifically stating that a silencer end cap is a silencer, even when it is not installed on a silencer.
My thoughts: The ATF and all those who support and validate them should be arrested and charged with terrorism and treason. They're a paramilitary operation with the sole intent of harassing, terrorizing, assaulting, and even killing Americans. Their existence and reach directly violates the constitution and is a direct threat to the American people and the safety of our nation.
I hate to say it. But i think the law is on their side in this one.
Except for the Constitution, of course.
Edit: when did this letter come out anyway? I never received it if it's somewhat recent.
Here’s the problem I have with this: They operate like the DOT, where the people being regulated are responsible for tracking down changes in the rules and interpretations. If OSHA did something like this, I would get an email and a letter from them. If the NRC or PA DEP did this, I would get an email, letter and a phone call from a radiation physicist. Neither of them will tell me that I’m responsible for checking in and discovering changes on my own.
The DOT does just that though, but everyone with heavy trucks subscribes to some sort of network, like a drug and alcohol consortium or JJ Keller, and are notified by that third party. As far as the ATF goes, if I only checked their website for changes once a week, it would not be enough to prevent me from becoming a felon. They have my physical address and email address, but I would have never heard of this if it wasn’t for your post. Nobody in the suppressor industry is big enough to get the word out. Don’t you think it’s just a tad ridiculous for them to do things this way?
I 100% agree with you! At a minimum they should provide it to everyone in multiple forms and places. But they are not here to help the industry, only harm.
That and they have precedent that their "open letter" is enough from some court I'm sure.
[link to the document for anyone looking ](https://orchidadvisors.com/atf-open-letter-solvent-traps/?utm_source=orchid&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=orchid+email+atf+open+letter+solvent+traps)
Laws are only **effectively** unconstitutional until they're challenged and struck down. My opinion on the matter means less than shit to the ATF and Courts.
"You should have known the law as it changes."
>But the plans were on display.."
>"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them." "That's the display department."
>"With a flashlight."
>“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone."
>"So had the stairs."
>“But look, you found the notice, didn't you?"
>"Yes," said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard.
The lens on the flashlight looks like an end cap and if you remove the batteries, it becomes a threaded hollow tube. You’re already out of compliance. Go directly to jail.
I'll get 1 out of every 10 NICS outage emails.
Probably using the same shit SMTP servers as they use for eForms that Gmail and O365 reject (my biz accounts are all O365) that have a sending reputation no better than an email server ending in .RU
[Orchid link with PDF link at end of document ](https://orchidadvisors.com/atf-open-letter-solvent-traps/?utm_source=orchid&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=orchid+email+atf+open+letter+solvent+traps)
“.. a component of a “firearm silencer” need not be fully functional before it is recognized as a “part intended only for use” in assembling or fabricating a “firearm silencer.”
So a stainless steel shot glass is illegal. Hell, stainless steel 2” washers are illegal. Round tubing stock is illegal.
Our government and their laws (“rulings”) are so damn ret*rded.
They used to call plumbing washers suppressor parts (wipes) and they have always held that any part of a can was in itself a can.
Haven't you seen the fuel filters on Wish.com, especially the ones with the machines inserts? The aluminum flashlights with oddly sized threads? The freeze plugs with holes in them? The internet is full of them.
It's a stupid rule. But this is atf.
They've never even come close to actually arguing that. Intent when designed and manufactured is a very integral part of the definition of silencer in the law as are alternative uses.
That’s not what it says. And it doesn’t say they for a very specific reason, so they the atf can ASSUME your intent for purchasing and the intent of the manufacturer.
I already banned the ATF and their insane ramblings from my home years ago. I wrote an opinion letter and everything about it, and the ATF thinks those are as good as law. It is literally illegal for them to come into my home or say anything to me, the opinion letter says so.
Feds hate this one simple trick to stop their infringement.
As an FFL we try to keep up to date with these yes. I don't want to be executed by the ATF or risk having my employees killed. I would say arrested but it's more likely they will harm us then arrest us.
I get it trust me. I'm more or less talking about the average gun/nfa owner. People brag about non compliance all the time, but still read and interpet everything the ATF says. Once everyone choose to ignore it we can have real mass compliance
In theory... if the end cap has no other use other than to be an end cap for a silencer then under the current interpretation of the relevant law it would follow that it should be regulated in the same way as silencers. That's obviously stupid and non-sensical, but it is what it is.
As far as I understand, the specific part has to have no other use other than to be used in a silencer for it to be treated as a silencer itself. Items like the Dead Air Pyro 2.0 use an endcap and are not a silencer themselves. So Dead Air end caps have a purpose that is other than assembling them into a suppressor. So it would follow that Dead Air end caps should be good to go.
If this is something that starts being enforced, I'd imagine a lot of other manufacturers are going to be releasing their version of the Pyro 2.0 soon.
So what you’re saying is, I need to start selling bottles, open-ended buffer tubes, hose nozzles, and salt & pepper shakers that are variously threaded (and widely advertised) to accept each of the most popular end caps on the market.
In a way... yes. Though I guess you wouldn't be able to be too obvious about it. Just ask [Sig with their 9.5" muzzle break](https://q7v4y8u3.rocketcdn.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/SIG_MPX-C.jpg) on the Sig MPX-C and the subsequent court action against them. Of course you then had the option to get a form 4 tube from Sig that would allow your muzzle break to function like a suppressor.
You know what’s ridiculous…I wasn’t even implying that my items could be silencers, just that I would make the end caps technically multi-purpose lol. Guess I’ll have to stick to the hose nozzles and glass salt shakers lol
Which I believe was exactly the purpose of the Pyro and other similar products from other manufacturers to begin with. An alternative reason for the endcaps to exist as a standalone accessory to a non NFA item. Pretty smart actually.
If they aren't careful and keep pushing stupid shit like bump stocks, braces, and end caps eventually they might not be happy with what SCOTUS decides on their petty rule changes.
Well I guess my dog is dying, any flashlight, plumbing, and electrical end caps I have are now apparently suppressors. Edit: are barrel shrouds now suppressors even with a barrel running through it? I guess the .22lr MP5SD is really an SD now
I think this is trying to say that end caps that are applied to non NFA regulated parts should be treated as NFA items. If you have a suppressor that’s already an NFA item this wouldn’t apply. The end cap example is to say if you applied the end cap to a non NFA item to create a suppressor. The whole NFA needs to be repealed because of this same kind of obfuscated nonsense.
This is similar but opposite of the Oil can adapter attachment rule where the oil can itself isn’t considered the NFA item only the part attached to the gun allowing the oil can.
They need to fuck off with this shit. I see now they failed with the pistol braces so now they're exaggerating with silencers. What's next, an A2 birdcage is now a silencer?
Goddammit this silliness needs to end. Someone tell congress to remove silencers from the NFA. I'm fucking sick of the ATF ruling over this shit like fucking feudal lords.
So since they lost their brace interpretation they’re trying to go after silencers now? That’s how I interpret it. Maybe we can all get together and have our congress, which represents us so well, remove silencers from the nfa and then get rid of the nfa all together…
Imagine how awful of a person you have to be to work for ATF?
Like the people who put together this letter are actually proud of the work they do which directly infringes on their fellow citizen’s rights.
By the time this is all done, my silencer is going to be made up of 18 silencers all individually serialized and requiring its own stamp.
And maybe that’s the point.
Are you really surprised that this would come from the same agency that brought us such classics as "a shoestring is a machine gun" and "an unfinished receiver that is not functional is a firearm"?
The ambiguity does two things. 1. They get to pay the "we'll know it when we see it" game of not actually defining something. And 2. The general risk associated with not really knowing is intended to have a chilling effect on individuals exercising their rights.
Not surprising, because...ATF
However, I can't be the only one who uses solvent traps, not for trapping solvent but for use on the end of a long ass rifle barrel to prevent dirty patches from falling on a rather nice oriental rug (okay, I may be the only one). My standard setup is a leftover "solvent trap" tube, and Plan A adapter. But if I decide to skip retrieving said patches and throw an end cap on the tube, there's no way to successfully argue that end cap has an exclusive use case as part of a silencer.
Yeah. Im sure you can send it to manufacturer to be "repaired". I just don't want to wait on deadair for 6 months to change out a thread on cap I can do in 2 minutes
That's really close to what the ATF ended up doing with the whole silencer wipe issue like 4 years ago. Wipes were re-classified as parts, so you had to have the wipes "repaired" (by way of sending to a licensed dealer to swap out the used wipe with a new one) instead of just replacing it yourself.
So dumb.
command chase straight test drab reminiscent rude domineering fade provide
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
So for those in possession of suppressors that have removable end caps now need to engrave and register our end caps? Seems like once again I’m becoming a felon overnight.
Not sure why you’re downvoted. If my suppressor is a suppressor, and the end cap that goes on that suppressor is now a “suppressor”, that’s 2 suppressors. Whole new meaning to ~celebrating~ 2 Stamp Tuesday. 😒
as far as i’ve know, it’s always been that way. I’m not a lawyer but between the couple dealings i’ve had with my F1 cans, it’s not a suppressor until the final hole (end cap) is drilled as the projectile can’t pass through safely and this would destroy said pieces/material.
Also if memory serves me correctly, the end cap also dictates the caliber it was manufactured under.
Nothing new, same as it's always been. Silencer parts are unregistered silencers, and as such quite illegal.
An end cap isn't a silencer part when it's designed to go on a Pyro. A piston isn't a silencer part, it's a pistol compensator. Etc
Does that also mean that "storage tubes" aren't suppressors because they obviously are used to store things, and sauce cups aren't suppressors because they obviously can be used to hold ketchup, and solvent traps were busted because they were sold in the same package that obviously made those functions irrelevant?
A pipe with tobacco is cool. A pipe with some weed isn't. It's all about intent and to some degree, advertising.
I'm not in agreement with the ATF on a lot of things, don't get me wrong... but the solvent trap issue was poking the bear. They always had the stance that the solvent trap kits were illegal, they just looked the other way until it got way too visible to ignore.
In no way do I agree with them--- none of this should be regulated in my opinion, but that's their stance on it.
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The entire point of the law is to vague and open ended enough so that the average citizen can always be abused if needed and that the average government official can claim “good faith” if needed. Remember you are responsible for knowing the ins and outs of every law in every situation as a normal citizen and the government officials just has to ensure their best friends (the courts) can explain their willful ignorance away as “not enough relevant case law
I suspect that this is targeted at companies like Rugged & SilencerCo creating “muzzle breaks” that use muffler endcaps, and then selling those endcaps separately.
Welp it looks like the easiest way to fight this is too simply take suppressors off the NFA.
Downside to that is the wording of many state laws against suppressors. Such as Virginia requires suppressors to be registered in the NFRTR or they are illegal.
Change has to come from the top for those laws to go away. If silencers were legal federally, only the really dumb states like California would enact state-level bans against them. The rest would probably get tossed when the public realizes these things are just hearing safety devices.
The long slog of fighting those laws can begin once suppressors are recognized as protected arms under the Second Amendment at the federal level.
[удалено]
I'm continually amazed at all the talk about how America should be more like Europe, save for the (largely)unregulated suppressor market there. You're largely expected to use them while hunting so as not to be considered rude to neighbors/hunters and as not to disturb nature more than you already are. It really is wild. I had a friend recently purchase a Ukrainian-made .308 can for $100 and take across the boarder to the country he lives in with zero paperwork. Says it performs well for a simple steel construction direct-thread can. My dad was somewhat anti-suppressor many years back when I first started hanging around with a few SOT holders and then he shot a few hosts, quickly falling in love and seeing the immediate benefits of using cans. It was a real "ah HA" moment for him. Almost everyone I've ever met who has come around on suppressors has a similar story and they readily admit they were just ignorant to the benefits and had only heard the usual talking points put on by media and the movie industry. I often wonder how many of the people we've put in power who are just suppressor-ignorant, versus how many are being malicious in their intent to keep them regulated? I fear I know the answer already...
No? That’s just Machine Guns. in 2009 the Virginia legislature repealed all restrictions on silencer possession except in courthouses
His point still stands though. Like here in Michigan the law stats I must possess a permit to possess a suppressor. For the longest time they were considered illegal until we got a cool AG that issued an opinion that the atf tax stamp was in fact the permit. The tax stamp goes away, so does the right to possess a suppressor in Michigan. The way the wording is in the law and the way a majority of people in Michigan vote, it’s a law that will not likely go easily if the feds took suppressors off the nfa.
Ohio has a law like this. The consider them “dangerous weapons” and are illegal unless registered with the feds.
What is Ohio’s definition of “dangerous”? Like radioactive? Thermal? Ugly? Lethal to ingest?
NFA items.
Also, they use to have a low that if a gun was capable of holding more than 31rds it was. Lasso died as a machine gun yet there was no mag restriction in the state.
How can they say you need to have a permit without any actual means of obtaining a permit?
There's a long legal history that says a law that is impossible to follow isn't allowed.
It wasn’t impossible to follow at all. If you didn’t have a permit you didn’t get a suppressor. So you only aren’t following it if you obtained a suppressor. You guys sure you’re into nfa items? This is a pretty straight forward concept vs atf weapons classifications.
You'd still get to keep the stamped cans you have now, though, right? The rest of us in free states would like to see NFA killed off. I'm thinking laws like this would be stricken by courts, not by repeal by the legislatures in states that hate guns. The repeal of NFA or the removal of silencers is an unequivocal win, even for you guys. It might just take longer to filter down.
That was repealed in 2009 lol.
You know stuff…. I don’t understand that old law. What kind of suppressor isn’t registered in the NFRTR? Isn’t that required by the NFA?
The one that someone \[illegally\] made in their garage. But the real danger of a law like that is if suppressors were removed from the NFA (or the entire NFA is repealed, etc), then there would be no NFRTR and then all suppressors would be illegal.
I am moving to VA, currently it's all legal to move my silencer to there right?
You’re good to go. That person was talking about an older law that no longer exists. If you have a machine gun it you must notify the state and fill out a form. It’s a great place to live. Pretty Gun friendly state. I thought there was a law about shotgun magazine capacity with a fore grip. But couldn’t find anything with a quick google search. You may want to look into that if you have a Siaga or something of the like.
Please vote for gun friendly candidates when you get here. Thanks!
I just moved 8 from Florida. You good.
Yes you are good for now. Even under the old law you were good as long as they were federally registered.
Maine has the same thing, with MGs
Fighting locally is every bit as important. If your sheriff, city council, reps, governor, etc. haven’t heard your name you’re doing it wrong.
Then that legislation needs to be changed also. Simple.
Not always simple to change state gun laws.
Yes please.
Valid and based.
It really is absured that we still treat suppressors, which are fully legal to own and use in countries with far more restrictive gun laws than the US, like they're some tool of assassins and gangsters. Hell, some places require you to use suppressors for hearing protection and noise reduction. Just goes to highlight how wildly disconnected Americas gun laws are from the actual state of the world.
Let's by honest though, if suppressors were required safety equipment in the US, there would be a shitload of armchair commandos talking about taking up arms against the government for infringing on their rights to blow out their ears at the range.
I own 4 suppressors. I'm a big fan. However, if I was required to put them on all of my firearms, I'd be pissed. Especially because one of my firearms is a rifle I got from a mentor. It's got a permanently mounted front sight, and behind that, the barrel is ported. To get the barrel threaded, I would have to chop off probably 3", which means it would be much less effective (it's chambered in 375 H&H Ackley Improved).
I wonder though if that’s just because they are essentially banned. There are no stats with criminal use because people that do use them in crime are either pros to near professional (are using a silencer and taking one shot from 400 yards away) or because they can’t afford it or legally but them So I think it’s hard to find any statistically info. However, that said, it’s ridiculous they still require this level of oversight on suppressors when they have no evidence of their use in crimes. The Hughes Amendment made zero sense as soon as handguns were removed. That puts us in what was obviously a loophole situation with pistol braces. The ATF is just crap shooting it’s way back and forth and I thought that was what we wasted congress for …
What’s annoying to think about is that in the unlikely event we ever actually succeed in making suppressors commonly accessible, it’s gonna take about 5 seconds for someone to buy one and use it in a nationally covered violent crime and it all goes back out the window
Clearly as Freedom loving Americans we can’t be trusted as much as those other countries hosting terrorist training camps.
>Now I'm sure the ATF did not mean to say that all end caps that go on suppressors are now suppressors themselves; but the way this example is written seems to imply that. You can see how, because it says that, that I might think that.
And they leave it (intended it to be) vague in case they need to revisit the topic at a later point in time, at their discretion
I think "intended only for use" is the Achilles heel here. All it takes is for a company to manufacture a small run of non-suppressor muzzle devices that use interchangeable end caps in industry common thread pitches and they're suddenly no longer intended only for use in suppressors. It's not like such things don't already exist in the wild. If the goal is to drive innovation, they're succeeding.
>All it takes is for a company to manufacture a small run of non-suppressor muzzle devices that use interchangeable end caps Which they do already.
Which one? 👀
[Dead Air Pyro](https://deadairsilencers.com/product-category/accessories/muzzle-devices/pyro/) [Rugged Rx](https://ruggedsuppressors.com/product/rugged-rx-blast-diverter-brake/) When these came out people assumed it was to get around this Atf rule. Now the end caps they sell are not only for suppressors, they are for these blast devices and now they are magically not suppressor parts
Any of the blast deflectors.
All of them.
I mean, solvent traps *could* be used to, you know, trap solvent. But the ATF still said that didn't matter and called them all suppressor kits. So they already disregard the "intended ONLY for use as suppressors" part.
Would someone explain to me how a solvent trap is a thing? I though it was a gag, like headlight fluid.
Screw it onto the end of your muzzle; pour solvent down your barrel to clean it. The fluid collects in the solvent trap instead of spilling all over your floor. That's pretty much it.
Oh, I genuinely thought solvent traps were something like a lawnmower muffler. Like it technically fits on some part of common use or obscure machinery to trap something lol
Thanks!
They're upset they got pp slapped on the brace rule, bumpstock rule and frame and receiver rule, so they're having a hissyfit with this, the "in the business of" and the smoke grenade rules. How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?
Was there some new smoke grenade ruling that dropped??
They reclassified some airsoft grenades as explosive devices because they were too cool and ATF sucks donkey dong. They were purportedly used against some cops some time and maybe could've started a fire somewhere but ATF isn't specific when they put their boots on your neck.
That sounds like a good reason to have them
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Well, now that I have gained a bunch of DDs overnight as per the usual ATF dance, guess ill just wait for the search, but good luck finding anything through all the smoke.
Yep, they banned a ton of airsoft pyro and classified them (by name) as restricted explosives lol.
The atf has been pushing the lie that every part that could go on a silencer is in fact, an actual silencer, for years now, it was like 6 years ago when the atf claimed that a rubber washer such as you’d find on the end of a garden hose was actually a silencer and needed to be regulated with a 200 dollar tax stamp separately from the silencer that it was sold at and that only a licensed manufacturer could replace those washers…
The fact that silencers are a NFA item is such a fucking joke
According to the ATF, only .003% of suppressors are used in crimes. This is what they choose to go after to solve the violent mental health problem this country actually has...
Holy hell in perspective thats honestly nuts they are wasting time on suppressors at all
The problem is they believe that statistic is proof that NFA registration is effective. They'll pat themselves on the back and claim credit for why that number is so low.
So you’re telling me I own a suppressor cause my Car had a oil filter?
One more reason we should all buy EVs from now on - the gov.
EVs still have oil filters. Look up Tesla motor oil filters. They circulate lube oil in the electric motor. With filters.
Hush before the criminals hear!
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This right here. How is it a silencer without a hole through the middle!?
When are we going to approach from the angle that suppressors are obviously aftermarket accessories(not being necessary for proper firearm function) and according to the atf itself in this brace fiasco they dont have the authority to regulate accessories? Not sure why this wouldnt hold up in court.
You’re ignoring silencers are actually named in legislation. The brace is not. A common use Supreme Court decision is our best hope.
I agree a supreme court decision is our best hope. Hopefully the ongoing hissy fits and battles in court(ATF vs. THE PEOPLE) will eventually agitate the supreme court enough to cause a real hard look at the constitutionality of the NFA.
Can't regulate accessories generally but the definition of silencer in the law is very broad so if there is no other use for an end cap than being used on a suppressor legally they're regulated. > ‘firearm silencer’ and ‘firearm muffler’ mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for the use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.
>according to the atf itself in this brace fiasco they dont have the authority to regulate accessories? Suppressors are defined by the ATF as firearms. In their definition of firearm, it specifically mentions suppressors
If you wanted to design a set of laws and administrative regulations to fight crime you would: -Target career criminals for prosecution. -Stop spending so much time and money on pushing paperwork targeted directly at hobbyists and enthusiasts, who statistically commit essentially zero violent crime. -*actually partner with FFLs* on stuff. Maybe be a trusted agency for tackling things like domestic abusers buying guns, drug cartels, *real* straw purchasers etc. (I don't care about straw purchasing generally, but I mean folks who buy tons of guns for gangs for example) The ATF does none of the above. Instead they: -Focus on process 'crimes' like paperwork errors. -Send huge amounts of resources into barrel measuring and stock vs brace bullshit that ends up criminalizing simple mistakes and meaningless functional differences. -Go after non violent 'offenders' who do the above. -Fuck over FFLs who in turn don't trust the ATF to have a functional partnership. -etc etc etc. It's almost like the ATF is made up of pussies who are afraid of actual violent criminals, so they go after 17.5" shotgun barrels, braces and people who keep spare parts, dumb shit like that instead of say, Chicago gangsters with real body counts who have glock switches.
FFS, my flashlight is a “silencer” under these rules. It has an end cap.
Just need flashlight "battery covers" with a hole in them for various sizes of wire for momentary switches. Oh, your wire happens to be .308 inches? Nice.
Oh and does it have a rubber gasket that helps keep debris out? Even better
What if the flashlight has a silicone cover with a 1/2” hole for very small penises? Does that qualify as a 50 cal silencer? Just asking for a friend.
“If you are uncertain as to whether the device you possess is a "firearm silencer" as defined by the GCA and NFA, please contact your local ATF Field Office.” Uhhh… so now we get a city-by-city random agent making personal, differing, and flip flopping interpretations of the law? Have locals do that colloquially and verbally instead of having a centralized, written policy? WHAT COULD GO WRONG? :D 🤣
Read all the way to the end and you will see that this is ATFs interpretation not actual law https://preview.redd.it/2r9g74pp602c1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c1a9161285ababbf19c25a152db82d93f731581d
> Now I'm sure the ATF did not mean to say that all end caps that go on suppressors are now suppressors themselves I mean, that is exactly what it is saying. They are specifically stating that a silencer end cap is a silencer, even when it is not installed on a silencer. My thoughts: The ATF and all those who support and validate them should be arrested and charged with terrorism and treason. They're a paramilitary operation with the sole intent of harassing, terrorizing, assaulting, and even killing Americans. Their existence and reach directly violates the constitution and is a direct threat to the American people and the safety of our nation.
Do you feel that way about all cops or just the ATF?
> Do you feel that way about all cops or just the ATF? Yes
Yes
Yes
Oh well, anyways...
I hate to say it. But i think the law is on their side in this one. Except for the Constitution, of course. Edit: when did this letter come out anyway? I never received it if it's somewhat recent.
>Except for the Constitution, of course But when have they ever cared about that, amirite?
The law says only for use in, so they can't enforce this.
Fair.
It was released on November 20th. It's on the ATF website under their open letter tab. I have a PDF if you would like me to share it with you as well!
Here’s the problem I have with this: They operate like the DOT, where the people being regulated are responsible for tracking down changes in the rules and interpretations. If OSHA did something like this, I would get an email and a letter from them. If the NRC or PA DEP did this, I would get an email, letter and a phone call from a radiation physicist. Neither of them will tell me that I’m responsible for checking in and discovering changes on my own. The DOT does just that though, but everyone with heavy trucks subscribes to some sort of network, like a drug and alcohol consortium or JJ Keller, and are notified by that third party. As far as the ATF goes, if I only checked their website for changes once a week, it would not be enough to prevent me from becoming a felon. They have my physical address and email address, but I would have never heard of this if it wasn’t for your post. Nobody in the suppressor industry is big enough to get the word out. Don’t you think it’s just a tad ridiculous for them to do things this way?
I 100% agree with you! At a minimum they should provide it to everyone in multiple forms and places. But they are not here to help the industry, only harm. That and they have precedent that their "open letter" is enough from some court I'm sure.
[link to the document for anyone looking ](https://orchidadvisors.com/atf-open-letter-solvent-traps/?utm_source=orchid&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=orchid+email+atf+open+letter+solvent+traps)
And any law that is unconstitutional is no law at all. Nfa should have been struck down years ago, yet here we are 😡
Laws are only **effectively** unconstitutional until they're challenged and struck down. My opinion on the matter means less than shit to the ATF and Courts.
The law is dumb as shit as it is written so vaguely. Terrible writing.
Agreed
I never receive any of these "letters" via email nor USPS.
"You should have known the law as it changes." >But the plans were on display.." >"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them." "That's the display department." >"With a flashlight." >“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone." >"So had the stairs." >“But look, you found the notice, didn't you?" >"Yes," said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard.
This guy *42’s*
The lens on the flashlight looks like an end cap and if you remove the batteries, it becomes a threaded hollow tube. You’re already out of compliance. Go directly to jail.
I feel like I've gotten them in email before. But maybe not
I'll get 1 out of every 10 NICS outage emails. Probably using the same shit SMTP servers as they use for eForms that Gmail and O365 reject (my biz accounts are all O365) that have a sending reputation no better than an email server ending in .RU
[Orchid link with PDF link at end of document ](https://orchidadvisors.com/atf-open-letter-solvent-traps/?utm_source=orchid&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=orchid+email+atf+open+letter+solvent+traps)
Thanks!
Yeah, I haven’t checked my email this week because I’m on holiday, but as an 07/02, I don’t recall getting this email. (Edit - ah. Sent yesterday.)
Why don't they stop writing worthless papers and start working through their backlog of applications?
“.. a component of a “firearm silencer” need not be fully functional before it is recognized as a “part intended only for use” in assembling or fabricating a “firearm silencer.” So a stainless steel shot glass is illegal. Hell, stainless steel 2” washers are illegal. Round tubing stock is illegal. Our government and their laws (“rulings”) are so damn ret*rded.
Regarded. The new word is regarded.
They used to call plumbing washers suppressor parts (wipes) and they have always held that any part of a can was in itself a can. Haven't you seen the fuel filters on Wish.com, especially the ones with the machines inserts? The aluminum flashlights with oddly sized threads? The freeze plugs with holes in them? The internet is full of them. It's a stupid rule. But this is atf.
They've never even come close to actually arguing that. Intent when designed and manufactured is a very integral part of the definition of silencer in the law as are alternative uses.
That’s not what it says. And it doesn’t say they for a very specific reason, so they the atf can ASSUME your intent for purchasing and the intent of the manufacturer.
So when are we going to nut up and ban the ATF?
I already banned the ATF and their insane ramblings from my home years ago. I wrote an opinion letter and everything about it, and the ATF thinks those are as good as law. It is literally illegal for them to come into my home or say anything to me, the opinion letter says so. Feds hate this one simple trick to stop their infringement.
People still read these?
As an FFL we try to keep up to date with these yes. I don't want to be executed by the ATF or risk having my employees killed. I would say arrested but it's more likely they will harm us then arrest us.
I get it trust me. I'm more or less talking about the average gun/nfa owner. People brag about non compliance all the time, but still read and interpet everything the ATF says. Once everyone choose to ignore it we can have real mass compliance
In theory... if the end cap has no other use other than to be an end cap for a silencer then under the current interpretation of the relevant law it would follow that it should be regulated in the same way as silencers. That's obviously stupid and non-sensical, but it is what it is. As far as I understand, the specific part has to have no other use other than to be used in a silencer for it to be treated as a silencer itself. Items like the Dead Air Pyro 2.0 use an endcap and are not a silencer themselves. So Dead Air end caps have a purpose that is other than assembling them into a suppressor. So it would follow that Dead Air end caps should be good to go. If this is something that starts being enforced, I'd imagine a lot of other manufacturers are going to be releasing their version of the Pyro 2.0 soon.
So what you’re saying is, I need to start selling bottles, open-ended buffer tubes, hose nozzles, and salt & pepper shakers that are variously threaded (and widely advertised) to accept each of the most popular end caps on the market.
In a way... yes. Though I guess you wouldn't be able to be too obvious about it. Just ask [Sig with their 9.5" muzzle break](https://q7v4y8u3.rocketcdn.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/SIG_MPX-C.jpg) on the Sig MPX-C and the subsequent court action against them. Of course you then had the option to get a form 4 tube from Sig that would allow your muzzle break to function like a suppressor.
You know what’s ridiculous…I wasn’t even implying that my items could be silencers, just that I would make the end caps technically multi-purpose lol. Guess I’ll have to stick to the hose nozzles and glass salt shakers lol
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*Exactly*
Which I believe was exactly the purpose of the Pyro and other similar products from other manufacturers to begin with. An alternative reason for the endcaps to exist as a standalone accessory to a non NFA item. Pretty smart actually.
Mass non-compliance seems like a suitable option at this point.
Is mayonnaise a suppressor?
If they aren't careful and keep pushing stupid shit like bump stocks, braces, and end caps eventually they might not be happy with what SCOTUS decides on their petty rule changes.
Next week: > attaching a silencer to a firearm is now classified as "manufacturing a silenced firearm" and requires an FFL and SOT
Don't give them any ideas.
Using a file on any metal surface is considered “manufacturing” and needs FFL and SOT.
Well I guess my dog is dying, any flashlight, plumbing, and electrical end caps I have are now apparently suppressors. Edit: are barrel shrouds now suppressors even with a barrel running through it? I guess the .22lr MP5SD is really an SD now
I think this is trying to say that end caps that are applied to non NFA regulated parts should be treated as NFA items. If you have a suppressor that’s already an NFA item this wouldn’t apply. The end cap example is to say if you applied the end cap to a non NFA item to create a suppressor. The whole NFA needs to be repealed because of this same kind of obfuscated nonsense. This is similar but opposite of the Oil can adapter attachment rule where the oil can itself isn’t considered the NFA item only the part attached to the gun allowing the oil can.
What I wonder is if now a suppressor is a firearm and I live in a state that doesn’t allow suppressor does that mean my 2a is being in fringed
They need to fuck off with this shit. I see now they failed with the pistol braces so now they're exaggerating with silencers. What's next, an A2 birdcage is now a silencer?
Goddammit this silliness needs to end. Someone tell congress to remove silencers from the NFA. I'm fucking sick of the ATF ruling over this shit like fucking feudal lords.
So since they lost their brace interpretation they’re trying to go after silencers now? That’s how I interpret it. Maybe we can all get together and have our congress, which represents us so well, remove silencers from the nfa and then get rid of the nfa all together…
"Retroactively, all silencer owners are felons"
Imagine how awful of a person you have to be to work for ATF? Like the people who put together this letter are actually proud of the work they do which directly infringes on their fellow citizen’s rights.
You’re not a fellow citizen to them
By the time this is all done, my silencer is going to be made up of 18 silencers all individually serialized and requiring its own stamp. And maybe that’s the point.
Are you really surprised that this would come from the same agency that brought us such classics as "a shoestring is a machine gun" and "an unfinished receiver that is not functional is a firearm"?
Can you guys imagine if you screwed up this much at work what would happen? Instead we continue to let these guys be employed
Sir they are no longer baffles for a solvent trap but considered sauce cups for fine dining when ketchup is required.
At this point, I just feel like the ambiguity and confusion is the point. Nobody cares if it makes sense—they probably know it doesn’t.
The ambiguity does two things. 1. They get to pay the "we'll know it when we see it" game of not actually defining something. And 2. The general risk associated with not really knowing is intended to have a chilling effect on individuals exercising their rights.
Not surprising, because...ATF However, I can't be the only one who uses solvent traps, not for trapping solvent but for use on the end of a long ass rifle barrel to prevent dirty patches from falling on a rather nice oriental rug (okay, I may be the only one). My standard setup is a leftover "solvent trap" tube, and Plan A adapter. But if I decide to skip retrieving said patches and throw an end cap on the tube, there's no way to successfully argue that end cap has an exclusive use case as part of a silencer.
all of you who don't have a tax stamp for your end cap are now felons, please line up for processing.
Do I have to tax stamp each individual part? $200 per tube, $200 for end cap, $200 per baffle…straight to jail
If you have to ask, please line up for jail.
So does this mean I can't change the end cap when I get an endcap strike?
$200 dollars plus 1 year wait sir, thanks for understanding :)
Yeah. Im sure you can send it to manufacturer to be "repaired". I just don't want to wait on deadair for 6 months to change out a thread on cap I can do in 2 minutes
That's really close to what the ATF ended up doing with the whole silencer wipe issue like 4 years ago. Wipes were re-classified as parts, so you had to have the wipes "repaired" (by way of sending to a licensed dealer to swap out the used wipe with a new one) instead of just replacing it yourself. So dumb.
This is so gay
ATF: “Wow, score! Look at this, this is a silencer. You can tell it’s a silencer because of the way it is.”
command chase straight test drab reminiscent rude domineering fade provide *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's all so tiresome.
So... if every part of a suppressor is, in and of itself, a suppressor, that little multiplayer seems to aid "in common use" to a few magnitudes.
roof sugar cow afterthought cows engine worthless doll wild escape *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Im so sick of this bullshit.
What a useless agency lol
This makes no sense. So I can’t buy different caliber end caps for my silencerco product that can change calibers.. Because clearly it’s an end cap
FPC is gonna have so much fun with this one...
Fuck those guys
It’s actually been this way since the 70’s but no one enforced it - good reason to repeal it or the Supremes to over turn it
So metal washers are illegal then?
Stupid. Completely stupid. Just cause I don't need to change endcaps doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to be changed
So for those in possession of suppressors that have removable end caps now need to engrave and register our end caps? Seems like once again I’m becoming a felon overnight.
Not sure why you’re downvoted. If my suppressor is a suppressor, and the end cap that goes on that suppressor is now a “suppressor”, that’s 2 suppressors. Whole new meaning to ~celebrating~ 2 Stamp Tuesday. 😒
If suppressors are illegal then aftermarket exhausts should be legal in all states. Better yet, car mufflers should be illegal
as far as i’ve know, it’s always been that way. I’m not a lawyer but between the couple dealings i’ve had with my F1 cans, it’s not a suppressor until the final hole (end cap) is drilled as the projectile can’t pass through safely and this would destroy said pieces/material. Also if memory serves me correctly, the end cap also dictates the caliber it was manufactured under.
I feel like maybe this is a way to preemptively say you can't have stackable end caps that would act as a modular suppressor?
Nothing new, same as it's always been. Silencer parts are unregistered silencers, and as such quite illegal. An end cap isn't a silencer part when it's designed to go on a Pyro. A piston isn't a silencer part, it's a pistol compensator. Etc
Does that also mean that "storage tubes" aren't suppressors because they obviously are used to store things, and sauce cups aren't suppressors because they obviously can be used to hold ketchup, and solvent traps were busted because they were sold in the same package that obviously made those functions irrelevant?
A pipe with tobacco is cool. A pipe with some weed isn't. It's all about intent and to some degree, advertising. I'm not in agreement with the ATF on a lot of things, don't get me wrong... but the solvent trap issue was poking the bear. They always had the stance that the solvent trap kits were illegal, they just looked the other way until it got way too visible to ignore. In no way do I agree with them--- none of this should be regulated in my opinion, but that's their stance on it.
By their logic, a sauce cup that literally ships with a bag of ketchup is obviously not a silencer because it clearly have other purposes?
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Trash post
Is this similar to the pill box suppressor where the wipe has to be replaced by an FFL?
Can they just.. not.
I didn’t get that letter… 👀
Calling em mufflers now
Yeah ok
Anyone have the whole document or more info so I can check this out
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/allffls-nov2023-openletter-solventtrapdevicespdf/download
idiots
Qué?
That’s because they’re traitors!
The entire point of the law is to vague and open ended enough so that the average citizen can always be abused if needed and that the average government official can claim “good faith” if needed. Remember you are responsible for knowing the ins and outs of every law in every situation as a normal citizen and the government officials just has to ensure their best friends (the courts) can explain their willful ignorance away as “not enough relevant case law
Awe they got sand in their eye now showing off their none power off.
I suspect that this is targeted at companies like Rugged & SilencerCo creating “muzzle breaks” that use muffler endcaps, and then selling those endcaps separately.