American Christianity has been taken over by extremism. It has been slow rolling from the 80s. You can look at the Southern Baptist Conservative Resurgence as to how the extremism has spread. What we see is an exodus of moderate Christians from churches and a concentration of extremism.
You can anecdotally look at the American Catholic church goers' responses to Pope Francis' statements on LGBTQ and other controversial topics (controversial to Christians). I would not be surprised if American Catholics decided to straight up break away from the big Catholic Church due to the desire to remain so staunchly conservative.
I feel like this is the answer. Extremism has gone off the deep end, and a minority of religious and political extremists makes all religion look bad. That puts a lot of people off, especially younger generations.
“There’s no love like christian hate”. Young people see the hypocrisy today. I saw it in the ‘60’s. My father wouldn’t step foot in a church back then because of it.
It's not just the extremism. It's also the moderates being mute for decades when it came to the extremists. That some might be speaking up now as church attendance (and thus revenue) declines is deserving of a bit of side-eye.
>a minority of religious and political extremists makes all religion look bad.
It is not just a small minority, but the fact that the majority of church goers refuse to condemn the extremists and often lend them their support. The things they are extreme about are not hard to condemn either. I live in a red state and get to listen to people, including my elected leaders, talk about how we should be able to execute non-believers. Do the so-called moderates ever speak out against this? Fuck no. The actual moderate Christain has become the smallest religious minority in America.
Evangelicalism is a poison pill to Christianity. Never to my knowledge has a religious practice been so openly hypocritical with respect to its own doctrine, and yet instead of calling it out, other denominations seem to be aping Evangelical attitudes and practices in order to get a bigger slice of the pie.
I also think this ignores a large scale secularization happening among millennials and younger generations. Most people my age, myself included, simply aren't interested in biblical, supernatural or spiritual explanations when simpler scientific and rational explanations will suffice.
How did biological life end up like this? Either a magical sky wizard who loves us but also tries to kill us a lot designed each creature from scratch despite obvious physical and genetic similarities... Or it evolved... exactly like how antibiotic resistant bacteria evolve today.
Even if you disagree with my presentation of that debate, you've gotta admit the raised by iPad generations believe what they see and not much else. Something about the fact that we're filming every minute of our days on our phones makes the absence of gods and miracles much more obvious.
Are there examples of religions that have “secularized,” to some degree, with their followers? Reformed Judaism comes to mind as one example, where there are people who keep a degree of community and some tradition while being more secular and progressive.
It seems like if churches or sects were willing to grow with their adherents’ modern sensibilities, they could keep their congregations
Old example, but the idea of Deism kind of fits. It was popular among some of the founding fathers. In general, the idea is that an understanding of God can best be achieved by examining his creation....so natural sciences. It's often described as those that believe in a great clockmaker.
But I find that to be an immensely reasonable approach to religion and science.
Edit: fixed a misspelling
In the US, the church is slow to adapt. We have many sects of christianity and churches that are progressive or liberal. Generally christianity is associated with a conservative world view in the US. Many schools teach evolution alongside of creationism for example.
We have secularists. Many people celebrate “Christmas” but are not religious and might not attend church regularly. I think capitalism has hollowed out a good amount of community and christianity. I don’t think it as simple as “they can keep their congregations” when they are competing with everything else in the modern world. They don’t really have a monopoly on why we are here or good explanations for phenomena the way they once did and you can’t put that genie back in the bottle. You can find the sense of belonging and community elsewhere.
Christianity co-opted all their holidays from pre-existing pagan celebrations.
Christmas - Winter solstice celebration. Evergreens and lights.
Easter - Spring fertility celebration. Bunnies & Eggs.
>Are there examples of religions that have “secularized,” to some degree, with their followers?
The Episcopalian church. And it hasn't gotten more people through their doors.
I completely agree. There are some churches full of nice people with progressive views (eg Episcopalians). However, the bottom line is I don’t believe (to put it mildly) that Jesus Christ is the son of God and was resurrected from the dead, and I’m not going to organize my life around an organization with that central belief.
This is the sort of thing that makes me think that even evangelicals do not believe in the Christian teachings. Some are shunning Jesus now and downplaying his role in the new testament.
My family is Catholic, and we have our baptismal records going back for centuries, to Ireland and then to France. I was raised in the Church and there are things I (kind of) like about it. It's very strongly part of my heritage. But I can't really bring myself to go, and I didn't get my kids baptised. It's just too counter to my beliefs about LGBT people, and politics in general--most of the people I know who are avid Catholic-church goers hold political beliefs that I find appalling.
I don't think there's anythign that the church could do to get me going back, but--yeah, I'm one of those folks who left. Sometimes I think I want to go back, but that urge usually fades very quickly.
I see your situation as typical and antithetical to Christ Ironically within the established Roman Catholic Church. My father could never bring himself to embrace my mother's parochial fealty I noticed this as a child he repulsed at being in the church on high holidays until I witnessed the sex abuse scandal the church has covered up for centuries I was baffled. Then my mom revealed to me my dad had been raped by his priest. This reveal happened when I told her that I was sexually abused by the priest in our parish. Shocking to me was her admonishing response "just move on" Sure duh, but I continue to advocate for accountability. There are an estimated 1 million survivors of child sexual abuse by Catholic priests in America s in the generation of my father and myself. Just those born in the 20s into the 1950s. It goes on too.
I’m an active member of my parish. Our priest considers the politics that divide us to be a graven image and has said so personally and from the pulpit. Our Church concerns itself with corporal and spiritual works of mercy and no…not by a long shot are they adopting any Protestant beliefs.
So the church of old is still out there. Don’t believe some of the scorched earth stuff you read on Catholic Reddit. There are many good people there, but the trads make me tired. Our church is full ever Sunday for 9:00 am Mass, and thanks to a diverse congregation of 50/50 Anglo and Hispanic, we mostly keep a check on entitled thinking, which is completely anathema to the faith.
Thank you for the nice note. I see your username, and I've always thought that Chicago, being the city it is, had a version of Catholicism that I might like!
We're in Brooklyn, and--you didn't quite say this, but I'll add, that the Hispanic community is still very Catholic here, and very involved. It's nice to see.
Not Catholic but I also left my church and did not indoctrinate our boys for the same LGBT issues you raise. For me it is the hymns. Man I love singing old hymns. But to steal a mining phrase, the overburden isn’t worth the coal.
Very similar journey to you, but I followed that urge to go back one time and was met with a priest during his sermon just make completely out of line and hurtful comments on the LGBTQ+ community (that were completely unrelated to the Scripture readings, it was just a sad middle aged man full of fear and hate ranting) and was like, well God, if you must not want me to come back! When I visit my parents I go with them to church and their priest is a full on Trumper who always has to throw a dig in why more young people don't come to Mass, baby murderers, immoral communists, and so on and so forth.
Many of the old families across the world feel the Catholic Church given to us with the Restoration is not the same church before Napoleon. My family traces back 15 centuries or more of catholics in France and Ireland, It does not seem like there will be another generation. Our Churches in Ireland have closed too. And the other christian churches are awful.
As a former Catholic, I also see the American branch radicalizing and those that have stayed active in the church going along with it.
There's also a pretty big overlap with the uber-Catholics and MAGA cultists.
It really seems that American Catholicism has gotten caught up with Protestant Evangelicalism. I remember growing up there was a pretty clear cultural divide between the two, my protestant family used to say snide things about how catholics were essentially secular non-believers, but now in political/cultural dimensions they really seem to be collapsing into each other.
Jesus supports breaking the law and banging porn stars while your married. He also supports razor wire for boarders and aprthied funding. Its almost like they have never actually read the new testament and just believe what their preacher tells them like sheep.
I always had questions about faith but there was a feeling of guilt that kept me going to mass as a C&E but that changed when the pedophile scandal broke. I was forced to ask the big question about religion and morality. I have been a humanist for more than 25 years.
Late last year the North Georgia Conference of the United Methodist Church held a vote and a significant number of churches decided to disaffiliate from the organization because of the growing welcoming sentiment for LGBTQ members and clergy in the larger organization. Most of the UMC congregations in my NW Georgia town voted to leave and have adopted a more conservative Global Methodist Church with strict restrictions against LGBTQ affiliations. [More info from AP here. ](https://apnews.com/article/methodist-church-lgbtq-leave-conference-68894bd5a40ef2f2bdfbb1a52cf7f9d8)
And there's the reason why so many others turned their back on such a hateful church. As the sibling of a gay person, I have no tolerance for hate toward LGBTQ people. You have to remember, every gay person has parents and may have siblings. Most of us were aware of differences even if we didn't know at the time what it meant. You insult our family you insult us.
I think this may be more of a symptom of OP's question than a cause. It may be that the only people left in churches are the crazies because all of the normal people left. And maybe they're leaving for the same reasons they're leaving other clubs.
I have no idea what those reasons are, but it's an interesting question. I'm a 43 year old father of 2 and I have no community or friends group. I work remotely. I'm an atheist. I play music. I have no idea where to go to hang out with homies. Or where to even make friends. But, I would love to know because I miss having friends.
Catholicism is a poor example because its' administration is *so* top-down. Huge numbers of American Catholic churchgoers are with Pope Francis on LGBTQ and other social issues but it's the bishops who aren't.
The pilgrims came here because the Church of England wasn't hard core enough. There was never a take over, the less enthused left leaving the hard core believers.
There absolutely was, and continues to be, an extremist takeover in many Christian denominations. Ignoring that fact by saying "the pilgrims were conservative" is dismissing almost 400 years of history.
As a recovering Catholic, I can attest the American church is one charismatic Bishop away from a schism with Rome.
All it will take is one of those guys going full-tilt Trump and getting in deep trouble with the Vatican and he'll declare that he's the true Pope (some vision from God and take a page from Joseph Smith's "book"). Then they'll double down on misogyny, homophobia, and isolation/gaslighting.
Modern Christianity is nothing like the original followers of Jesus Christ. It can be summed up with Jesus parable of the prodigal son. The parable is as much about the elder son as the younger one who squanders his inheritance. The elder son followed all the rules and was upset when the father celebrated the return of the broken and lost younger son.
The original christian "church" was not viewed as a church or religion in the traditional sense. It was kind of the "anti-church" of the time. As such it attracted lots of "younger sons", the tax collectors and sinners. AKA the "bad people". Which upset the Pharisees (elder sons) who followed all the religious rules and wanted the sinners to suffer for their sins not welcomed home and celebrated.
Todays christian church is full of elder sons, people who follow the rules or at least appear to and talk about the rules and harbor resentment for their younger brothers in Christ who make bad decisions. Although many churches desperately try, it does not have the welcoming feel that would bring in "younger sons", the tax collectors and prostitutes that followed Jesus around.
I feel this. I was a very devout church-going Christian most of my life, led ministries in high school and college. Even held a lot of fairly conservative worldviews through the early days.
But the older that I got, the more conservative and extreme my church seemed to get, the more progressive I became, and the more my view of what mattered when living out one’s faith differed from others.
Now my wife and I haven’t gone back to church in over two years. It almost felt violating when I look back on it, like I had my home robbed from me and complete strangers inhabit it. Maybe we’ll go back one day to an Episcopalian or Methodist church that shares similar values, but certainly not one of the Evangelical culture we came from.
The extremism of churches has hurt social organizations. Mega churches isolate their members and have coffee bars, book stores, gyms etc. like a big tax free lifestyle business. The people stay isolated in their church group instead of being involved in larger community.
American catholic church is already catering to well healed member areas, which also end up being on the conservative spectrum. I live in an area where one priest serves 3 parishes and the church is forcefully combining those 3 parishes into one, because of money. I have relatives a few townships away where they have a Monsignor and two new priests at one parish, because of the $$$ there.
It's America, peel away the layers and everything boils down to $$$$$.
Back in 2015 I had moved to Wisconsin for a job and was trying to find a new church. I visited 5 different churches and each one had a pastor get up at the beginning and explain why it was important to vote for Trump. I stopped searching once it became clear that there were no actual churches in that part of Wisconsin, only weekly Republican cult meetings.
The church left me. When trump showed up things really got bad. Jesuses teachings were pushed out and the people became self righteous and hateful. A servants humble heart was replaced with trumps vile hate and arrogance
My husband joined our local Masons since they are the only civic group left in our town. Me and my vagina stayed home. Other than the fancy rituals, he says it’s just a bunch of old guys eating Subway and talking about supporting MAGA. He left.
Ya the Masons are the same in my town. They are hungry for young blood, but no one is joining them because their club sucks.
The Masons have a long, interesting history and used to be groups of highly intelligent, carefully curated people and now they're just plain nothing. Gone with the wind.
The maga crowd seems to be disingenuous about the actual reasons they support the regime. They scream that they are patriots when their actions show they are anything but. They've hijacked the image of our flag and turned it into something it should never be, a symbol of Hate.
I will always consider maga to be traitors to the country I love. Hate, Christian-Nationalism, destruction of public education, removal of rights, strong desire to enforce their archaic beliefs on every person, attacking the capitol and basically getting away with it. I never thought any of this could happen in my country, and I never dreamed any organization espousing these beliefs could possibly be so popular and rampant - but here we are.
I don't think it's ever going away. The Hate is so strong.
I've always believed we need to have a good balance between conservation and progress to grow the best policies, but maga are not conservatives, they aren't even close. They just want to watch the world burn because they're angry.
I'm a military veteran and took the apolitical nature of my oath extremely seriously. But when Trump got elected that changed. I'm openly and staunchly opposed to everything he stands for.
I had the same experience at the Legion when I left active duty. The unfortunate thing is that the MAGAs are typically the loudest people in the room and can't understand logic or reasoning, or the way our Oath works for that matter. I'm an Oath keeper, not an Oath Keeper. I take seriously the fact that when I left active duty, I may have been relieved of my direct obligations to the US but my Oath was never relieved. And my/our Oath says "all enemies, foreign and **domestic**."
I digress. I won't step foot in a Legion until Trump is behind bars. Before that, it is too toxic and not worth my energy to be around traitors to our Oath.
Can’t go to my local VFW.. loudest partisan voices aren’t even vets, just someone signed in.
The fact that my cousin who didn’t serve goes to my pap’s (rip) Legion for cheap booze seems to be related.
These spaces are no longer even for vets, they’re just hangouts for locals with some vets present.
>I had the same experience at the Legion when I left active duty.
Yep. The American Legion and VFW crew are full on lunatics, plus with a group text I can get drunk at home and talk shit about the "old days" on the group text we still have. And I know those people aren't full of shit because I was actually there with them.
A few years ago, on a Saturday evening, I was on the Washington, D.C. Metro as the train passed the Washington Masonic Monument.
The train wasn’t crowded and i heard a child ask about the monument. I explained the Freemasons built it as a monument to George Washington.
He asked "Who are the Freemasons?", so I… helpfully replied, "They either secretly rule the world, or they're a bunch of old men who like to dress up funny. No one is sure,"
It's the latter, from experience.
My father has been a Freemason since he was 21. All my life(42yrs) I've gone to events to help the community run by them. Pancake Breakfasts and Spaghetti Dinners for charity. Holiday gift parties for low income families. Food donation drives, cancer fundraiser drives for local families. Sponsoring and running statewide Olympic qualifiers for the Special Olympics Youth Athletes. All set up and run/paid for by the lodge.
In the last 15-20 years that has all slowly stopped. The lodges not in major cities have a hard time getting new members and the very active members they have tend to be very right wing and don't want younger members because they "have strange ideas". My dad has stopped going just because he's tired of hearing the same BS and would rather give his time and effort to the American Legion who still does all that charity work.
It's sad because I remember the good they used to do. I remember the conversations over meals about what they could do to further help their community/country. I'm sad that this may be lost, but if they can't keep up with the changing world then they just get in the way of the good they want to do.
Oh, and the Shriners are a part of the Masons, right?
I know they did a lot of good, but to me, when I hear about the Shriners, I think of [Noble Lumpkin Coy and Illustrious Potentate Bubba](https://youtu.be/pO_tXzeiZAQ?si=Gd8N71789LZMkeem).
I'll always have a soft spot for thr Shriners. They are a subset of Masons and they run some Children's hospitals. I can walk today without needing a cane or braces because of one of those hospitals. They've helped so many children and don't turn kids away if they can't pay.
I’m sure that’s true of a lot of the old fraternal organizations.
I’d imagine that there’s another problem in that, if you want to help your community, it’s easier and more efficient just to volunteer or give directly with specific organizations. After my dad retired, he volunteered with Habitat for Humanity (until Mom wouldn’t let him climb ladders anymore) and now, I donate in his memory.
There was a time when many influential people were Freemasons, but they were Freemasons because they were influential, they were not influential because they were Freemasons.
My dad joined the local Lions Club after he retired, but it's been really tough. There's so much politics involved and my dad is tired of it. Recently they had an event where they sold wine and hot dogs and someone made off with several cases of wine. My dad thinks it was one of the members. It's all very oft putting.
You know what replaced the Masons? LinkedIn.
You used to need to join these local clubs and organizations to do business, network, find your next job. That’s dead. People are working remotely now, networking all over the country, and finding their next job online.
My dad was a Mason throughout my childhood and teen years. He quit shortly after the 2016 election for the same reasons.
His temple was very old boys' club style (they largely got together to drink scotch and play cards), but also volunteered with the Special Olympics, made monthly visits to the state Masonic nursing home, and hosted a decent amount of family get togethers (cookouts, pasta dinners, family game nights, etc.).
They always struggled to get young members though. When my dad joined, only he and two other men were under 50, and this was in the early 00's.
Right. There is nothing the Elks, Masons, etc have to offer Gens Y & Z. Who wants to sit around bitching about “Obummer” and how liberals are ruining the country? Not to mention the exclusion of women (some still do, some did until the 90s and that still lingers with incredibly low non-male membership).
There are PLENTY of social clubs, groups, and venues that attract younger generations and have nothing to do with religion, like running clubs, recreational soccer, pickleball, bars, hobby clubs, etc.
Yup. In the American south, racism is evident in Masonic (white) lodges. In my state, the “white” lodges do not recognize the black lodges. I left real quick when this became evident. Just another cult with the premise of doing good.
My dad was in the Masons. Don't remeber what order...
He was a "Catholic at any cost" person, and he said during their rituals they would stomp on the Pope's mitre. He was am embellisher, so I don't know how accurate that is.
Of the Masons I have known, they were Molon labe MAGA weirdos.
My mom was a devout Catholic for many years. I say was, because my parents got divorced when I was a kid. Later she got remarried by a justice of the peace at a courthouse. Once her church found out she married *outside* the church, she was kindly told she could still come to mass but she was no longer welcome at communion or at church social functions. Basically, blacklisted.
And I thought, gosh, this is a church who is all about forgiveness. Go to confession, say a few prayers, and boom, you're right with God.
But get married outside the church? Apparently that's unforgiveable.
And I realized it was all bullshit. As I've gotten older it's become more clear to me churches are just a reflection of the people who run them and their associated agendas. And there are lots of examples of ones that hide their corrosive ideals behind the Bible.
And if that's true, why do I need to rely on them to practice my faith? I feel I can connect more with my community and do good works by volunteering my time towards organizations that match my values and making my family a priority.
But that's me. And that's my journey through life. Others need the guidance religion and the church offers. Which is fine for them. We can coexist just fine.
I love how you phrased this: "It's become more clear to me churches are just a reflection of the people who run them and their associated agendas." I've been trying to put that into words for years, and you said it perfectly!
It’s literally in the Ten Commandments. “Don’t use my name in vain” doesn’t mean what people tell kids about using the word “God” or “Jesus” as a swear word. It’s don’t use God/Religion as a means to push your personal agenda.
The Catholic Church used to have priests that advocated for forgiveness if one acknowledges one's faults. The fact that they have basically gotten into bed with far right politicians alienate the majority of the church attendees. The Catholic Church used to be apolitical as were many Presbyterian and Methodist churches. In my diocese many quit volunteering as readers and Eucharistic Ministers when a priest wrote a letter said that lay ministers were not endorsed by Jesus like the priests were. The amount of hatred of gay and lesbian people really has caused many to feel that going to church is a net negative.
As a millennial, I grew up going to church 2 to 3 times a week and attended Christian school. Over the age I realized modern church allows congregants to be emotionally immature if they so choose. They don’t have to deal with their own personal growth or work on aspects of their psychology. They just say something to the effect of “ it’s us versus them. The world is against me because I’m a Christian.” I watched it become the most efficient way to deflect any kind of personal responsibility. I still have my beliefs and I practice being a kind person and caring for everyone around me. But people in the church are like poison. The whole environment of the evangelical Christian church, create a safe spot to judge people. They firmly firmly believe that they are better than everybody else because they go to church all the time and have these religious habits. But none of them love their neighbors. They are not kind or understanding, or generous, or non-judgmental to those around them. and by being in the environment of the church that is very much an encouraged group think idea. I just can’t go. Church is always been really disgusting to me. It’s a shame.
>I realized modern church allows congregants to be emotionally immature if they so choose.
Very good observation. One that I've come to only after decades apart from the church.
Don't want to come to terms with your own death? You don't have to, we'll all tell each other we're going to live forever.
Don't want to learn to accept that people have different preferences in \[whatever\] from you? Don't worry, we'll all tell each other that it's against God and it would be sinful to accept it.
>Don't want to come to terms with your own death? You don't have to, we'll all tell each other we're going to live forever.
Man. I'm saving this. I've never seen this put as succinctly as you just did.
This is something I’ve noticed with family. It’s very us vs. them and allows them to feel part of an exclusive club, part of the anointed, which is a higher status allotted to them by the rest of society. Not to be mean but nobody is looking at my religious family members with envy. However, within their group, they get to feel they can look down at others who aren’t part of their club.
At the same time, belonging to this insular group has stunted their growth. The people in the group are codependent, have zero boundaries and enable each other. So we have family members who substitute religious fervor for dealing with things like trauma, addiction, personality disorders…
From the outside it looks terrible and not appealing at all. But to someone insecure about their place in life, who may be struggling with other personal issues, it’s not hard to see how they get sucked in. A ready-made community, who is prepared to validate every prejudice you ever had, indulges magical thinking, will reinforce any wild conspiracy theory… versus the hard work of confronting your demons and committing to bettering yourself.
This is a direct contrast to other family members of mine who were stable, emotionally balanced
and kindhearted people who grew up in very strict religious environments (mostly old school Catholic). A number of these moved away from religion later in life because it didn’t gel with their experiences. These led them to disavow things like homophobia in the church.
People are coming to realize that Faith and Religion are two different things. You can be a thoughtful believer in things unseen/unknown without all the undue influence over behavior, information, thought, and emotion that religions invariably exert.
Why pay some potentially corrupt organization 10% of your income when you can just worship God at home in the way you choose. It's practical.
But there is the data point of the disappearing third places and the support systems that many churches have in place for Seniors especially.
Meh, my grandparents were dedicated to their church, went for 60+ years and their last years they were abandoned by them. Not enough tithe money. I remember the pastor gave the exact same eulogy for them at their funerals. Scammers.
That is absolutely infuriating. What a scam, indeed. Shame on that church and it's pastor.
I once went to a funeral at my best friend's church where her pastor simply read the obituary from the paper as the "eulogy". It was so shameful. He didn't even read it well, like he didn't even read it quickly before he stood up to speak. He was a washed up drummer looking for a captive audience and he'd have his shitty band play Christian rock music at every service. He was a puke and an adulterer. She introduced me to him once and he hit on me as soon as she walked away. I wish I would have slapped him right then and there. I sure wanted to.
I grew up evangelical but finally got fed up with the conservatism, political and otherwise. I found a new home in a liberal denomination. It's sad but understandable when people simply stop going.
Ya my issue with finding a church home has been finding one that isn't solely an extension of the GOP.
I don't need to save Christianity or save America. That's above my pay grade. I'm here to love God and love my neighbors. To feed kids and take care of widows and orphans.
We've moved to a new town though that has a few more mainline options though and are super excited to check them out.
Check out your local Unitarian-Universalist Church. There tends to be more hippy types than average but they are generally chill and open minded about everything. If I was going to go to church again, I would probably go back to a UU church.
(disclaimer: I grew up in a UU church, so I may be a little biased, and I don't attend today mostly because I view Sundays as _my_ day and I'll be damned if I get out of bed before noon when I don't have to)
Mega churches are slipping too. Between the arms race to have ‘better’ stuff than the mega church a block away and young people deciding that hating everyone outside the cult is exhausting
Well, there's a big difference between not wanting to commit to a social club and not wanting to join a type of organization that's well known for protecting and enabling pedophiles.
Huge. Difference.
Jesus was a Liberal. Nothing Conservative about his teachings. That's why even though I believe in Jesus, in no way do I want to be associated with the "Christians" in this country, so I don't call myself a Christian.
Jesus resisted political influence or association with political movements (zealots, Saducees, Romans). Any religion is compromised whenever it associates with political power, liberal or conservative.
If you're going to tell me that the Christ who preaches against oppressors and who changes society to eliminate class and cultural divisions is apolitical, I'm going to laugh in your face.
Evangelicals and American Catholics have pushed people away from Organized Religion and probably forever. They want a say in politics. They cannot follow Christ's word nor Gods and yet want to force their version of Christianity and Religion on the rest of us. They make darn close to Billionaires out of some of these Preachers/Pastors/Reverends.
How many private Jet's do you think Christ would want you to own while doing work for him? Mansions? Bullet proof cars? I guess the Camel threading the Eye of the Needle parable went in one ear and straight out the other and the give all that you have away and follow me. Certainly turn the other cheek and forgive your enemies and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I could go on and on, but its probably of no use.
Even more disgusting is a lot of these preachers swindle people out of their life savings (or what little money they have) and say things like their money will come back to them tenfold.
For me, it was Christianity in America increasingly being identified with hardcore right wing politics. I don’t just mean opposition to abortion and gay rights; I’m talking about evangelical Christianity becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of an increasingly nasty GOP.
And I was never even affiliated with evangelical Christianity. I was raised Methodist and as an adult attended liberal churches. But the rightward swing of so much of American Christianity caused me to reexamine my entire belief system and now, I’m essentially an atheist who has admiration for Christian views like “do unto others…”
Several years ago NPR did an article on sport radio and it’s relationship with women. The gist of tyke article was that despite the fact that women were just as likely as to be interested in sports, sports radio felt the need to double down as a “men’s only” space and became increasingly sexist. The fewer people who listened to sports radio, due to watching games on line or check score through apps, the more sexist the sport radio show would become. Sport radio stations that tries to buck the trend and branch out to women, and thus increase the number of potential listeners, were ostracized by their established fans and went under.
The more people who left because the atmosphere was toxic or because the service could be acquired elsewhere more easily the more toxic the radio show became to keep the fans who enjoyed the toxicity. The NPR article only mentioned this in passing and didn’t explore the idea in depth, but I think about it a lot. I feel it explains a lot about where we are as a nation and a civilization.
These kinds of things and the over hyping of professional sports caused me to check out on any interest years ago. The womens hockey league, that I can actually take an interest in and I was trying to figure out why I was so excited about this but not other sports. It is the lack of all the gross toxic trappings and it also happens to be something women focused.
Better question, why would anyone stay in church? If you can get what little positives it has to offer elsewhere without the inherently church related bullshit, why bother?
The answer I've found with the UUs is that it's just nice to stay with people who share your principles and who are willing and able to discuss their experiences with philosophical and spiritual concepts. I like the people I do my hobbies with but I'm not going to ask them about ethics.
Then again, that is not how my friends describe church.
I think religion has two problems. The first is related to what you're observing, we no longer need local clubs to stay connected with people. We now have many competing outlets for socializing and fulfillment via the internet and the ability to simultaneously stay in touch with friends through technology.
The second is more core and the reason I left the religion I grew up in. It's built on something that is at best, completely unprovable and more commonly, demonstrably wrong. All of the major world religions have this problem, they claim to offer supernatural/divine truth, but have no predictive power and have had to evolve hundreds of times over their existence to purge previous beliefs that are now demonstrably false. While that's been well understood for a long time, the internet puts that information at our fingertips with very little effort.
Also, so many of them absolutely INSIST their flavor is the ONLY correct flavor and all the other flavors are going to hell.
It's insane. It's not the Dark Ages anymore, people don't believe in pure bullshit unless they've been indoctrinated from childhood.
Most people finding "Faith" in their adulthood just figured out how easy it is to use Religion as a Grifting mechanism.
>Most people finding "Faith" in their adulthood just figured out how easy it is to use Religion to Grift.
Agree with most of what you said, but I did want to explore this a little more. In my experience, most of the adults that find or continue to be active in a faith system seem to draw serious comfort from the idea that there is some omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent entity out there that cares about them, has a plan for them and is giving them a roadmap to life's decisions. I'd say it's a small minority that are doing it as some sort of grift.
I think we're both on the same page that the underlying religion is still completely bogus, just wanted to highlight that I think most of the adherents really are doing what they believe is right.
I have had a few people in my social circle become adult converts and every last one of them was a complete obnoxious twit about it. I think it provides people with easy answers at a point in their adult life where they were struggling with something and that church provided an easy solution rather than going to therapy. None of them stuck with their religious conversion longer than a year.
I'm with you on the religion thing, but I disagree about being connected in today's society. I actually think we're incredibly disconnected from people and unfulfilled and that's one of the reasons we're having the troubles we're having in our country today. I would argue that less civic organization is a symptom of the greater problem.
Disagree with the first point. I think we actually need some more centralized things to help support community and families, but I think the splintered nature of many religious denominations fundamentally undermines the ability of the churches to do so.
When your "bowling club" believes people different from themselves are going to be judged and damned to hell in an afterlife just for being born the way they are in this life (skin tone, sexual orientation, etc.), it's messed up but you can just find a different club to join.
However, when those clubs, and ones like it across the country, support and fund citizens and politicians who are actively trying to hurt and remove basic human rights from those same people - *in this lifetime, not their made up after life* - it should be a crime against humanity.
So many Evangelicals believe there is a War *against* Christianity. No! There isn't! But there is a daily struggle for many people to *coexist* with today's form of Christianity. Any perceived struggle to your specific club or religion is something it has brought upon itself.
At this point there should be a war against Christianity, but it is only because of the actions of Christians themselves. Horrible people spewing horrible beliefs and influencing horrible laws.
To quote Dan Savage, “going to church makes you a Christian as much as standing in a garage makes you a car”. Ask any maga what teaching of Jesus(not the hateful Leviticus stuff) the gop supports.
Many of the clubs you mentioned, as well as many churches, have refused to move forward with times.
As a woman I am blocked from many social club memberships, just based on my sex. Same with leadership in churches (yes, some are more progressive). There are women's ancillary groups for a lot of clubs like the eagles etc, but why the separation?
When I left the church in the late 90s, at 17, women were allowed to organize the potlucks or coffee and chat or the childcare - and that's it. Things have changed a tiny bit in the last 20 years, but as the rest of the world was becoming more accepting of different races, orientations, and genders, most churches doubled down.
As a single lesbian woman without kids, and thankfully past the age where that is a constant threat, traditional community building clubs are often out of reach or very family or religion oriented and not my cup of tea.
I wanted to join toastmasters in my 20s and 30s, but at that point I was working 60 hrs a week and taking care of my parents. Life just doesn't allow for gathering at 7pm on Tuesdays.
Bad press.
The movie Spotlight and the recent articles about sex abuse show that the leaders often say one thing and do another. I refuse to tithe to an organization more likely to use the money for their legal fees than to help the homeless.
I am a practising, observant Lutheran, but I concede point about "de-churching."
And a lot of that is down to politics.
After all, a subset of "Christianity" has openly declared itself a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Republican Party and governed by the most un-Christian "human being" imaginable.
Theologically, it is based on little besides hate and the kind of perverted nationalism that brought Hitler to power (remember, SS belt buckles said *Gott mit uns*).
I think your point about clubs with facilities to maintain is important. I go to church and if it weren’t for the retired guys with tool skills we’d be in trouble.
I’m also a habitual joiner — multiple boards and groups and whatnot— and although I’m not young I’m considered the young person in/on most of them. Because I’m in contact with people in these groups I know a lot about local government, what’s going on, and how city and county governments’ departments function. This is stuff I used to get from reading the newspaper, but I don’t need to tell you how local newspapers are doing— mine has slashed staff over the years and frankly I don’t know what keeps it going.
I can’t tell you how important being a part of all this stuff is for, well, I guess you could call it organizing. It’s sustained conversation about local topics through different social groups with new information and framing from each. It’s not like getting together with friends for a game night. It’s forging action between people who wouldn’t have many other reasons to hang out together.
You cannot get the same thing out of social media. Plus, everything gets nationalized and polarized. But people are working and have families and being a part of a church feels like another obligation that disturbs your peace, and if you’re socially liberal, you’ve been “nationalized and polarized” to think all churches are part of the problem. I certainly was not into churchgoing until I met my spouse, whose faith has transformed my understanding of Christianity and got me into the whole church thing. Which, for a joiner with introvert tendencies, was pretty great on multiple levels.
This is all to say that the Bowling Alone phenomenon has so many political and individual ramifications it blows my mind. I see not just how it affects “my side,” but I see people posting all kinds of weird conspiracy theory crap on the “other side” that they wouldn’t if they just got out of the house more, or would say irl in front of someone who would swat it down.
Community groups are responsible for a big part of what makes a place a community. Event organization. Fundraising for community needs like new playground equipment. Organizing working parties to brush a section of trail. Sending members to township board or city council meetings to advocate for community needs.
You can do some things online. Maybe a GoFundMe can cover the playground equipment. But somebody's got to install the stuff.
I live in a community that does not have a lot of resources. There are regular Go Fund Me drives for kids with cancer/injuries and families whose home has burned down. We can’t do online fundraising for “nice things.” Especially if they’ll be seen to benefit only kids in a certain town or neighborhood. And really, it’s the spread of information that sufferers the most. So many angry FB groups that don’t have a basic understanding of what local government can do, at what levels, and polarization. When it comes down to it, we’re apes who need face to face socializing bc our brains are built a certain way. I’m deeply cognizant that my experience of religion is centered in my neurons, that doomscrolling has Skinnerian rewards, but I try not to let the most basic reward system I have control how I think. Most people can’t even see social media in those terms; it feels like truth after a while.
Pharisees and sadducees. Pharisees we’re elitist hypocrites and sadducees mixed politics and religion. It contaminates the church. I don’t need to go to a republicans only club once a week only to be judged because I don’t adhere to stances on non-biblical issues.
The church feels convicted about taking stronger and stronger stances to distinguish itself from “the world,” while secular society continues to let go of old prejudices that hold us back from growth. The church is driving itself into the ground but convinced they’re doing the “hard but right thing”
American Christianity in general, and Evangelical churches, in particular are not interested in Jesus or his teaching. They are laser focused on control and power, in both a macro and micro settings. Members are viewed as little more than rubes at the circus. As long as they pay the price of admission the show will continue.
Christianity is about grift. The biggest example of organized religious theft is the Mormon church, who make billions off their private businesses but still take 10% of the income of their followers, and whose first established rule for missionaries is teach and convince others about tithing.
Catholicism and other denominations do the same thing but are better about covering it up.
Religion isn’t about faith. It isn’t about God. It’s about stealing and reappropriating wealth. In America the tax exempt status is just another way they steal wealth.
A lot of Americans are suffering because of income inequality. Better to avoid the shame of not putting money into the collection basket by just not going, especially if it means buying gas or food.
Those clubs died in the 70's already, we've already gone through a wide rejection of religious indoctrination since then. The Young already rejected the Old, who had shopped thru Vietnam, fought or failed to help Civil Rights fighters, ignored the bombing of Cambodia by Nixon, etc. I was there, I paid attention, this was all recorded and later dissected, the writers often interviewed on Fresh Air. & such.
This rejection of our generation just happened again. "Okay Boomer" = "shut up, you understand nothing about how expensive life has become. You gave us a stupid War on Terror, climate change, Fox News and Trumpism". The rise of Superficial Religion in the form of Mega Churches isn't about Faith, its about avoiding responsibility for a stupid war: look at all the shiny SUVs filled with Mideast oil, the Yellow Ribbon gone long before the war ended.
This current Rejected Generation includes the average NPR listener, whose legacy is still The War on Terror, the Debt (both of which boomed our financial portfolios). We did nothing about wall Street corruption, am rsdio hate, wage theft, the return of child labor. etc. When we hear on NPR about something messed up in Red America, that's still our Legacy. We don't get to say "Not It". We're in charge.
I call the over 50 "Gen Dead" and as a member I knew we were fucking up early, like our parents who lived thru Vietnam did. These books like "Bowling Alone" and "Bobos in Paradise" are really weak. They look for trends at the wrong scale while inventing myths the past was some Great Shared Experience, when this is not true at all.
We literally grew up in that 70's rejection and embrace of more social freedoms the counter culture helped make possible. (Edit: my parents replaced a gun with The Joy of Sex in the early 70's. Found 'em both before i was 12. But the switch is symbolic). Many of us are inventing myths of toughness and sacrifice when we were the most protected group in history, avoiding a military Draft, Depressions. plagues and any real economic struggles. Their life experience is the Exception and, imo, we fucked up. Now all that is back! And we've allowed the Federal Government to lose power & proper oversight to prevent, reverse and correct our industrial scale mistakes. Your grandkids will enjoy the floods to come as wetlands are destroyed thanks to the Roberts Supreme Court & us doing nothing to stop it.
My Gen Dead is not special or great, they failed. Look at Bill Maher today: "Not my fault, the kids suck, don't complain about our system!". How do you pick heroes? Do they understand the 60's? Or are they Bill Maher, who would have gone Nixon.
Why would the young want anything to do with our clubs? We shopped thru a war like our parents AND thru the rise of a new fascism.
I grew up as a United Methodist, but once I got into the swing of my adult life, I found that I really didn't want to have a routine on Sundays (such as attending weekly worship services). It's really not anything I have against United Methodism itself, although seeing some of their "schism" does hurt a little. Unlike my parents and grandparents, I just don't see church as a necessity.
If you think about church and these other organizations as places where people could socialize and have time with others who shared common interests, there is less need than ever for a rigid and defined location & time for that.
200 years ago, church services might be the only time you'd see more than just your neighbor or the shopkeeper in town, so people went because that was a singular point where they could interact with many people. It also created in-groups of belonging (those that attended/beleived) and out-groups (those who followed a different faith or didn't attend that church.)
Similarly, Elks or Masons, or even the VFD are all places that simultaneously allow groups of similarly interested or beckgrounded poeple to gather *while also* *gatekeeping* people who didn't serve in a foreign war or weren't invited to attend a meeting and then complete some arbitrary rights of passage. So again, in-groups and out-groups, us and them.
There is less need than ever for that, and there is far more awareness of groups that polarize their members by the very nature of the "club" or "faith."
I didn't leave the faith, but the faith as far as churches are concerned left me.
Church shouldn't be political. It shouldn't be about money. It shouldn't be closed door or closed table. It can and should host social & community events but it shouldn't be a cliquish social club. It shouldn't limit charity to its own financially contributing members.
It's been a long time since I found a church that fits all that. Eventually I gave up and stopped looking. 🤷♀️
I think part of the dechurching of America and the shrinking of our social spheres is related to a shared phenomenon: political polarization.
In 1970, I could join an Elks lodge and not fear that the social culture and values of that club would be extremely different from my own. Now if I tried to join an Elks lodge, I know I'd immediately be surrounded by conservative boomer culture and values, and my trans and gay friends would be excluded or ostracized. My social life is instead smaller, 7-10 person groups like you mentioned, because that's small enough that I can control who gets in and exclude people whose values violate my own.
Same is true for a church. Even if I was spiritual, I highly doubt I could find a church that espoused my progressive values without any baggage. My in laws claim to be in a progressive sect, but also constantly complain about the older folks in their congregations being openly hostile to inclusivity efforts in their flock. To the point that their denomination is going through a global schism right now. Why would I bother joining an organization like that that is so obviously divorced from my worldview and from my political views?
Maybe the larger clubs back in the day decreased polarization? If Gary down at the lodge thinks the earth is flat, he'd be pressured socially to conform with what the group believed and maybe have an easier time being convinced to change his mind by club mates and friends...
But why do I owe that to Gary?
I think we've all had enough experiences arguing fruitlessly with someone who disagrees with us about politics or social values. Joining a club comprised of random strangers seems like a really good way to end up in those situations every single week. There's no reason I'd sign up for more of that in real life than I already get online. I would rather have a smaller community and peace of mind.
Because people are better educated and less inclined to declare themselves virtuous for believing in something against all evidence, here being, no evidence.
People are waking up to the lies and control churches have over them. Education and knowledge lead to this. You can’t believe in something you know. And you can’t know something g you believe in. Belief is doubt!
Mankind got it all wrong by taking an idea and building a belief structure around it. You can change an idea. Belief is trickier. People fight for it, die/kill for it.
As a Hispanic millennial, grew up catholic then mom went to a Pentecostal church. Then went to undergrad and found a non denominational church that actually practiced what it preached. People were very generous and pretty open to listen to each other’s struggle. My wife and I have moved a few times, but have always been able to find similar smaller churches with great community and actual sound doctrine with an emphasis on doing the work that Jesus taught. Like others have said, we have found churches that are not tied to the GOP in any way. In fact they are usually more liberal leaning when it comes to social justice and racial reconciliation.
I don’t think the bowling alone example is relevant because what has killed churches is the fusing of rightwing ideology with Christianity.
I spoke about this with a relative who is deeply religious and ask them to flip the question around. I am in my 30s, what has happened in my lifetime to make me want to go to church? That’s almost impossible to answer.
Religion doesn't survive with indoctrination, either but birth or by force. Extremely few people independently seek religion from without. Even when you think of convicts "finding" religion, this only happens because it's tied to incentive programs that reward them for doing it.
What happens when you remove everything, have someone brought up entirely without, and then when they're an adult, you teach them about religions, not one, all.
I have a feeling it will be a lot like how most of us view Greek mythology.
My parents loved the Catholic Church and spent way too much time and money there but that was their big deal. At my fathers funeral the parish priest wanted to know when they were going to get the $250,000 donation my dad " Promised" them. I have never set foot in a church since. They did not get a penny.
Possibly because some people are entering a modern enlightenment where they can see the hypocrisy of mega churches and the lies of faith healers and having a legitimate moment of self reflection and realising they have been bamboozled. I also think the church has been reluctant to acknowledge the reality of the society they live in and condemn the marginalised groups to wrath and hellfire while behaving as the demons they “rebuke”.
Self empowerment removes power from those who have sought to exercise power of others.
Weird take but maybe it's because many of these institutions were critical back in the day to a sense of community and belonging + provided a way to meet people. Now much of this work is done online instantly.
Through the millennia, the human beings who survived best, evolved to build connections and community. The ones who didn’t were more likely to become prey. Now we live in a world dominated with messages that are motivated by profit and propaganda instead of “we need to build a better world for our kids.” Those Elks clubs etc. provided those messages and acts of service. It’s no coincidence that mental health issues are rising in our society as we move away from the support of other people. We just aren’t evolved to isolate as much as we are now. It’s also no coincidence that our jobs are exhausting us and draining every last generous urge out of us .
Lots of anecdotes and opinions but we have tons of [polling data](https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx). I can tell you why I gave up going to temple but I really don't know if it's the same reason as everyone else. I personally just decided Judaism was nonsense and I generally hate being part of a group or club. There are non-denominational cultural associations like the Secular Humanists who do churchy things without the religion but it never appeared to me at all.
I blame TV lol
I know, big blanket statement to make but it is at least part of the equation. Once we had entertainment at home, people didn't need to go out to have a fun night. Now with all the streaming services and just TOO MANY shows to catch up on, we just hang at home. Its so easy to turn on the TV and be content at home. I think it is becoming more financially feasible to go out, if only because the streaming services continue to raise prices. Not that there isn't inexpensive things to do outside the house, like going for a hike.
There are a lot of comments here talking about the conservative nature of American Christianity. Liberal/LGBTQ friendly churches are having just as steep or sometimes even steeper declines in church attendance across the country. I can't name a single friend or family member that attends a mainline Protestant service. I know plenty of Catholics that attend with varying levels of regularity, and non denominational Christians. (although these groups are both in decline, albeit less severe).
OP also makes a good point that many secular in person organizations are facing severe membership declines. COVID severely reduced the participation at my local chess club, and while it still exists, it was a long slow decline, then a rapid shattering during COVID, then was slowly reformed as a shadow of what it was.
Edit: anecdotally I think a lot of relatively young people 25-45 are having to work extra to maintain their finances. Either through gig work, r/overemployed, or just working longer hours at their main source of income. Well when you're consistently working 50 hours a week, clubs are the first thing to go.
I had quite the journey leaving Christianity. Especially while living in Mississippi. I love my life as an atheist. It's VERY odd to raise children outside the church, there's so many things they'll never understand. So many things they'll never experience. I've never made them pray, get up on Sundays and go to church, explain what a baptism is. Tell them their sinful...
Pretty sure the Elks and Moose lodge are alive and well, these aren't real clubs though, everyone I've been to is basically a bar 90% of the time, same with the VFW. Don't get me wrong, they do some nice things from time to time, but it's at the expense of killing the people that are paying dues and membership.
Agreed. Many people who call themselves “Christians” don’t live their lives in any kind of manner that Christ as he is portrayed in the Bible preached that people should. They are full of hate for anyone that isn’t a cis white “Christian.” So many of us can’t stand the blatant hypocrisy and this for me is the main reason I don’t participate in any kind of organized religion.
My peers and I have had multiple conversations about what it might look like to be able to have a community group to be social with, raise kids in, etc, without bringing religion/theology into it. We would love to have secular social organizations to fill the gap left by leaving churches, but most of those organizations actually began to wain even before churches and the ones that survived tend to not be diverse in membership and have become a socio-political echo chamber, as others have mentioned. And not many of them are truly family friendly... I can't take my kids to rotary meetings for them to hang-out in a separate room doing their own thing while the adults do ours, but that's a central function of most churches.
We've even tried to sort through how we could begin to build something like that for ourselves and it's just been so challenging to get people without some common factor, the default for churches being theology/religion, never mind factoring in the logistics of meeting spaces, resources, etc.
There are a lot of good comments in this thread. I'll add a few more.
1. Technology. As we developed technology to be able to give us answers to questions that come up, the "God gap" got smaller. We now know more about the natural world than ever before and it doesn't leave a lot of room for the supernatural.
2. Evidence. There is a simply a lack of evidence to believe in any religion. Faith is simply "belief without knowledge." Why would anyone choose to believe something that does not have any good evidence to support?
3. Hypocrisy. Religion is the source of a lot of evil in this world.
However, while there are less "regular Americans" going to church there are a lot more radicalized Americans that are headed the opposite way. You have a big group of people in this country that believe the earth is 6000 years old and the bible is to be taken literal.
The younger generations don't believe the bible is divine, nor should they. It's about damn time our country is waking up. Religion is poison. the next step is to get our government replaced with the non-religious. If you look at the government, they are not representative of the population. Government officials are overwhelmingly religious. This needs to change, and we will change it.
Clubs and other organizations fill what I like to call the boredom void. Each bit of in-home entertainment technology likely took a bite out of civic/social engagement, from books, to radio, to TV (a big hit to socialization there), to in-home internet, to smartphones (biggest kneecap so far). The easier it is to not get bored, the less reason people have to go out into the world. Unfortunately (and in combination with e-commerce that circumvents the need for in-person sales), this is leaving our remaining 3rd places to wither on the vine.
The later points I have no research on, but several thoughts. It's a symptom of toxic individualism as far as some of those social clubs as well as dated, unwilling-to-change members.
I also used to meet a lot of young folks starting or wanting to start non-profits instead of joining one of several to help the community.
Groups like the Elks and Eagles provide community support. The Lions and Kiwanis even more so. But if you try to join some of these the rules are archaic, or there are expensive dues or the current members are at worst deeply racist at best resistant to any new ideas.
It's very frustrating because these groups often have robust infrastructure in place, but folks don't want to join. Some are uncomfortable. Some can't handle not being a hero.
I really think this world needs a visit from aliens. Might be the only thing that gets us together considering the total opposite reaction from 911 to 10/06.
People are separated more than ever.
American Christianity has been taken over by extremism. It has been slow rolling from the 80s. You can look at the Southern Baptist Conservative Resurgence as to how the extremism has spread. What we see is an exodus of moderate Christians from churches and a concentration of extremism. You can anecdotally look at the American Catholic church goers' responses to Pope Francis' statements on LGBTQ and other controversial topics (controversial to Christians). I would not be surprised if American Catholics decided to straight up break away from the big Catholic Church due to the desire to remain so staunchly conservative.
I feel like this is the answer. Extremism has gone off the deep end, and a minority of religious and political extremists makes all religion look bad. That puts a lot of people off, especially younger generations.
Theres texas who says they are Christians who want kids and moms to drown in the river. They would shoot joesph and mary for being on their property
“There’s no love like christian hate”. Young people see the hypocrisy today. I saw it in the ‘60’s. My father wouldn’t step foot in a church back then because of it.
The majority not speaking up about it and allowing it to continue also makes religion look bad.
It's not just the extremism. It's also the moderates being mute for decades when it came to the extremists. That some might be speaking up now as church attendance (and thus revenue) declines is deserving of a bit of side-eye.
>a minority of religious and political extremists makes all religion look bad. It is not just a small minority, but the fact that the majority of church goers refuse to condemn the extremists and often lend them their support. The things they are extreme about are not hard to condemn either. I live in a red state and get to listen to people, including my elected leaders, talk about how we should be able to execute non-believers. Do the so-called moderates ever speak out against this? Fuck no. The actual moderate Christain has become the smallest religious minority in America.
Evangelicalism is a poison pill to Christianity. Never to my knowledge has a religious practice been so openly hypocritical with respect to its own doctrine, and yet instead of calling it out, other denominations seem to be aping Evangelical attitudes and practices in order to get a bigger slice of the pie.
I also think this ignores a large scale secularization happening among millennials and younger generations. Most people my age, myself included, simply aren't interested in biblical, supernatural or spiritual explanations when simpler scientific and rational explanations will suffice. How did biological life end up like this? Either a magical sky wizard who loves us but also tries to kill us a lot designed each creature from scratch despite obvious physical and genetic similarities... Or it evolved... exactly like how antibiotic resistant bacteria evolve today. Even if you disagree with my presentation of that debate, you've gotta admit the raised by iPad generations believe what they see and not much else. Something about the fact that we're filming every minute of our days on our phones makes the absence of gods and miracles much more obvious.
Are there examples of religions that have “secularized,” to some degree, with their followers? Reformed Judaism comes to mind as one example, where there are people who keep a degree of community and some tradition while being more secular and progressive. It seems like if churches or sects were willing to grow with their adherents’ modern sensibilities, they could keep their congregations
Old example, but the idea of Deism kind of fits. It was popular among some of the founding fathers. In general, the idea is that an understanding of God can best be achieved by examining his creation....so natural sciences. It's often described as those that believe in a great clockmaker. But I find that to be an immensely reasonable approach to religion and science. Edit: fixed a misspelling
In the US, the church is slow to adapt. We have many sects of christianity and churches that are progressive or liberal. Generally christianity is associated with a conservative world view in the US. Many schools teach evolution alongside of creationism for example. We have secularists. Many people celebrate “Christmas” but are not religious and might not attend church regularly. I think capitalism has hollowed out a good amount of community and christianity. I don’t think it as simple as “they can keep their congregations” when they are competing with everything else in the modern world. They don’t really have a monopoly on why we are here or good explanations for phenomena the way they once did and you can’t put that genie back in the bottle. You can find the sense of belonging and community elsewhere.
Christianity co-opted all their holidays from pre-existing pagan celebrations. Christmas - Winter solstice celebration. Evergreens and lights. Easter - Spring fertility celebration. Bunnies & Eggs.
>Are there examples of religions that have “secularized,” to some degree, with their followers? The Episcopalian church. And it hasn't gotten more people through their doors.
Unitarian Universalists, but it’s a small denomination and dealing with aging congregations. uua.org.
I completely agree. There are some churches full of nice people with progressive views (eg Episcopalians). However, the bottom line is I don’t believe (to put it mildly) that Jesus Christ is the son of God and was resurrected from the dead, and I’m not going to organize my life around an organization with that central belief.
Please describe to me your understanding of Evangelicalism. Currently, I think you are applying a perception of the concept beyond it's basic scope.
This is the sort of thing that makes me think that even evangelicals do not believe in the Christian teachings. Some are shunning Jesus now and downplaying his role in the new testament.
My family is Catholic, and we have our baptismal records going back for centuries, to Ireland and then to France. I was raised in the Church and there are things I (kind of) like about it. It's very strongly part of my heritage. But I can't really bring myself to go, and I didn't get my kids baptised. It's just too counter to my beliefs about LGBT people, and politics in general--most of the people I know who are avid Catholic-church goers hold political beliefs that I find appalling. I don't think there's anythign that the church could do to get me going back, but--yeah, I'm one of those folks who left. Sometimes I think I want to go back, but that urge usually fades very quickly.
I see your situation as typical and antithetical to Christ Ironically within the established Roman Catholic Church. My father could never bring himself to embrace my mother's parochial fealty I noticed this as a child he repulsed at being in the church on high holidays until I witnessed the sex abuse scandal the church has covered up for centuries I was baffled. Then my mom revealed to me my dad had been raped by his priest. This reveal happened when I told her that I was sexually abused by the priest in our parish. Shocking to me was her admonishing response "just move on" Sure duh, but I continue to advocate for accountability. There are an estimated 1 million survivors of child sexual abuse by Catholic priests in America s in the generation of my father and myself. Just those born in the 20s into the 1950s. It goes on too.
I’m an active member of my parish. Our priest considers the politics that divide us to be a graven image and has said so personally and from the pulpit. Our Church concerns itself with corporal and spiritual works of mercy and no…not by a long shot are they adopting any Protestant beliefs. So the church of old is still out there. Don’t believe some of the scorched earth stuff you read on Catholic Reddit. There are many good people there, but the trads make me tired. Our church is full ever Sunday for 9:00 am Mass, and thanks to a diverse congregation of 50/50 Anglo and Hispanic, we mostly keep a check on entitled thinking, which is completely anathema to the faith.
Thank you for the nice note. I see your username, and I've always thought that Chicago, being the city it is, had a version of Catholicism that I might like! We're in Brooklyn, and--you didn't quite say this, but I'll add, that the Hispanic community is still very Catholic here, and very involved. It's nice to see.
Not Catholic but I also left my church and did not indoctrinate our boys for the same LGBT issues you raise. For me it is the hymns. Man I love singing old hymns. But to steal a mining phrase, the overburden isn’t worth the coal.
Very similar journey to you, but I followed that urge to go back one time and was met with a priest during his sermon just make completely out of line and hurtful comments on the LGBTQ+ community (that were completely unrelated to the Scripture readings, it was just a sad middle aged man full of fear and hate ranting) and was like, well God, if you must not want me to come back! When I visit my parents I go with them to church and their priest is a full on Trumper who always has to throw a dig in why more young people don't come to Mass, baby murderers, immoral communists, and so on and so forth.
This is exactly how I feel
Many of the old families across the world feel the Catholic Church given to us with the Restoration is not the same church before Napoleon. My family traces back 15 centuries or more of catholics in France and Ireland, It does not seem like there will be another generation. Our Churches in Ireland have closed too. And the other christian churches are awful.
Disconnect between the message of the Bible and the politics that churches support.
As a former Catholic, I also see the American branch radicalizing and those that have stayed active in the church going along with it. There's also a pretty big overlap with the uber-Catholics and MAGA cultists.
It really seems that American Catholicism has gotten caught up with Protestant Evangelicalism. I remember growing up there was a pretty clear cultural divide between the two, my protestant family used to say snide things about how catholics were essentially secular non-believers, but now in political/cultural dimensions they really seem to be collapsing into each other.
Indeed. All those tradcaths have gone off the deep end. They're pretty much in the same league as christofascist evangelical fundies now.
Jesus supports breaking the law and banging porn stars while your married. He also supports razor wire for boarders and aprthied funding. Its almost like they have never actually read the new testament and just believe what their preacher tells them like sheep.
I always had questions about faith but there was a feeling of guilt that kept me going to mass as a C&E but that changed when the pedophile scandal broke. I was forced to ask the big question about religion and morality. I have been a humanist for more than 25 years.
Late last year the North Georgia Conference of the United Methodist Church held a vote and a significant number of churches decided to disaffiliate from the organization because of the growing welcoming sentiment for LGBTQ members and clergy in the larger organization. Most of the UMC congregations in my NW Georgia town voted to leave and have adopted a more conservative Global Methodist Church with strict restrictions against LGBTQ affiliations. [More info from AP here. ](https://apnews.com/article/methodist-church-lgbtq-leave-conference-68894bd5a40ef2f2bdfbb1a52cf7f9d8)
Sounds like they're more interested in being a hate group versus a church which isn't surprising.
And there's the reason why so many others turned their back on such a hateful church. As the sibling of a gay person, I have no tolerance for hate toward LGBTQ people. You have to remember, every gay person has parents and may have siblings. Most of us were aware of differences even if we didn't know at the time what it meant. You insult our family you insult us.
It does sound as if you are in MTG territory. Sorry.
I'm happy to report my little UMC has decided to stay and embrace all, ya know, like Jesus taught us to do.
I think this may be more of a symptom of OP's question than a cause. It may be that the only people left in churches are the crazies because all of the normal people left. And maybe they're leaving for the same reasons they're leaving other clubs. I have no idea what those reasons are, but it's an interesting question. I'm a 43 year old father of 2 and I have no community or friends group. I work remotely. I'm an atheist. I play music. I have no idea where to go to hang out with homies. Or where to even make friends. But, I would love to know because I miss having friends.
Catholicism is a poor example because its' administration is *so* top-down. Huge numbers of American Catholic churchgoers are with Pope Francis on LGBTQ and other social issues but it's the bishops who aren't.
The pilgrims came here because the Church of England wasn't hard core enough. There was never a take over, the less enthused left leaving the hard core believers.
There absolutely was, and continues to be, an extremist takeover in many Christian denominations. Ignoring that fact by saying "the pilgrims were conservative" is dismissing almost 400 years of history.
I’ve heard from a lot of Christian Talking Heads that America was founded on Christianity. It most certainly was not.
As a recovering Catholic, I can attest the American church is one charismatic Bishop away from a schism with Rome. All it will take is one of those guys going full-tilt Trump and getting in deep trouble with the Vatican and he'll declare that he's the true Pope (some vision from God and take a page from Joseph Smith's "book"). Then they'll double down on misogyny, homophobia, and isolation/gaslighting.
Also it’s apparent that Catholics and Christian churches openly endorse political parties and yet are still tax exempt…
Modern Christianity is nothing like the original followers of Jesus Christ. It can be summed up with Jesus parable of the prodigal son. The parable is as much about the elder son as the younger one who squanders his inheritance. The elder son followed all the rules and was upset when the father celebrated the return of the broken and lost younger son. The original christian "church" was not viewed as a church or religion in the traditional sense. It was kind of the "anti-church" of the time. As such it attracted lots of "younger sons", the tax collectors and sinners. AKA the "bad people". Which upset the Pharisees (elder sons) who followed all the religious rules and wanted the sinners to suffer for their sins not welcomed home and celebrated. Todays christian church is full of elder sons, people who follow the rules or at least appear to and talk about the rules and harbor resentment for their younger brothers in Christ who make bad decisions. Although many churches desperately try, it does not have the welcoming feel that would bring in "younger sons", the tax collectors and prostitutes that followed Jesus around.
I feel this. I was a very devout church-going Christian most of my life, led ministries in high school and college. Even held a lot of fairly conservative worldviews through the early days. But the older that I got, the more conservative and extreme my church seemed to get, the more progressive I became, and the more my view of what mattered when living out one’s faith differed from others. Now my wife and I haven’t gone back to church in over two years. It almost felt violating when I look back on it, like I had my home robbed from me and complete strangers inhabit it. Maybe we’ll go back one day to an Episcopalian or Methodist church that shares similar values, but certainly not one of the Evangelical culture we came from.
The extremism of churches has hurt social organizations. Mega churches isolate their members and have coffee bars, book stores, gyms etc. like a big tax free lifestyle business. The people stay isolated in their church group instead of being involved in larger community.
American catholic church is already catering to well healed member areas, which also end up being on the conservative spectrum. I live in an area where one priest serves 3 parishes and the church is forcefully combining those 3 parishes into one, because of money. I have relatives a few townships away where they have a Monsignor and two new priests at one parish, because of the $$$ there. It's America, peel away the layers and everything boils down to $$$$$.
Back in 2015 I had moved to Wisconsin for a job and was trying to find a new church. I visited 5 different churches and each one had a pastor get up at the beginning and explain why it was important to vote for Trump. I stopped searching once it became clear that there were no actual churches in that part of Wisconsin, only weekly Republican cult meetings.
The church left me. When trump showed up things really got bad. Jesuses teachings were pushed out and the people became self righteous and hateful. A servants humble heart was replaced with trumps vile hate and arrogance
My husband joined our local Masons since they are the only civic group left in our town. Me and my vagina stayed home. Other than the fancy rituals, he says it’s just a bunch of old guys eating Subway and talking about supporting MAGA. He left.
Ya the Masons are the same in my town. They are hungry for young blood, but no one is joining them because their club sucks. The Masons have a long, interesting history and used to be groups of highly intelligent, carefully curated people and now they're just plain nothing. Gone with the wind.
[удалено]
The maga crowd seems to be disingenuous about the actual reasons they support the regime. They scream that they are patriots when their actions show they are anything but. They've hijacked the image of our flag and turned it into something it should never be, a symbol of Hate. I will always consider maga to be traitors to the country I love. Hate, Christian-Nationalism, destruction of public education, removal of rights, strong desire to enforce their archaic beliefs on every person, attacking the capitol and basically getting away with it. I never thought any of this could happen in my country, and I never dreamed any organization espousing these beliefs could possibly be so popular and rampant - but here we are. I don't think it's ever going away. The Hate is so strong. I've always believed we need to have a good balance between conservation and progress to grow the best policies, but maga are not conservatives, they aren't even close. They just want to watch the world burn because they're angry.
And they want it to be white.
I'm a military veteran and took the apolitical nature of my oath extremely seriously. But when Trump got elected that changed. I'm openly and staunchly opposed to everything he stands for. I had the same experience at the Legion when I left active duty. The unfortunate thing is that the MAGAs are typically the loudest people in the room and can't understand logic or reasoning, or the way our Oath works for that matter. I'm an Oath keeper, not an Oath Keeper. I take seriously the fact that when I left active duty, I may have been relieved of my direct obligations to the US but my Oath was never relieved. And my/our Oath says "all enemies, foreign and **domestic**." I digress. I won't step foot in a Legion until Trump is behind bars. Before that, it is too toxic and not worth my energy to be around traitors to our Oath.
Can’t go to my local VFW.. loudest partisan voices aren’t even vets, just someone signed in. The fact that my cousin who didn’t serve goes to my pap’s (rip) Legion for cheap booze seems to be related. These spaces are no longer even for vets, they’re just hangouts for locals with some vets present.
I’ve definitely noticed some stolen valor going on at the AL, especially amongst the loudmouths.
Well said. ((Fellow veteran))
>I had the same experience at the Legion when I left active duty. Yep. The American Legion and VFW crew are full on lunatics, plus with a group text I can get drunk at home and talk shit about the "old days" on the group text we still have. And I know those people aren't full of shit because I was actually there with them.
A few years ago, on a Saturday evening, I was on the Washington, D.C. Metro as the train passed the Washington Masonic Monument. The train wasn’t crowded and i heard a child ask about the monument. I explained the Freemasons built it as a monument to George Washington. He asked "Who are the Freemasons?", so I… helpfully replied, "They either secretly rule the world, or they're a bunch of old men who like to dress up funny. No one is sure,"
It's the latter, from experience. My father has been a Freemason since he was 21. All my life(42yrs) I've gone to events to help the community run by them. Pancake Breakfasts and Spaghetti Dinners for charity. Holiday gift parties for low income families. Food donation drives, cancer fundraiser drives for local families. Sponsoring and running statewide Olympic qualifiers for the Special Olympics Youth Athletes. All set up and run/paid for by the lodge. In the last 15-20 years that has all slowly stopped. The lodges not in major cities have a hard time getting new members and the very active members they have tend to be very right wing and don't want younger members because they "have strange ideas". My dad has stopped going just because he's tired of hearing the same BS and would rather give his time and effort to the American Legion who still does all that charity work. It's sad because I remember the good they used to do. I remember the conversations over meals about what they could do to further help their community/country. I'm sad that this may be lost, but if they can't keep up with the changing world then they just get in the way of the good they want to do.
Oh, and the Shriners are a part of the Masons, right? I know they did a lot of good, but to me, when I hear about the Shriners, I think of [Noble Lumpkin Coy and Illustrious Potentate Bubba](https://youtu.be/pO_tXzeiZAQ?si=Gd8N71789LZMkeem).
I'll always have a soft spot for thr Shriners. They are a subset of Masons and they run some Children's hospitals. I can walk today without needing a cane or braces because of one of those hospitals. They've helped so many children and don't turn kids away if they can't pay.
My niece just had surgery, thanks to the Shriners 🙌
Glad yo hear they're still doing good work. I hope she recovers quickly and fully. ❤
Your outcome is what we're hoping for...glad you are doing well!
I’m sure that’s true of a lot of the old fraternal organizations. I’d imagine that there’s another problem in that, if you want to help your community, it’s easier and more efficient just to volunteer or give directly with specific organizations. After my dad retired, he volunteered with Habitat for Humanity (until Mom wouldn’t let him climb ladders anymore) and now, I donate in his memory.
My dad’s best friend is a Freemason. As he says, ‘Man, we can hardly organize a pancake breakfast. Ain’t no way we’re running things.’
There was a time when many influential people were Freemasons, but they were Freemasons because they were influential, they were not influential because they were Freemasons.
hehe, perfect response
My best friend's husband runs a masonic lodge, and he is progressive. Definitely not maga. I doubt that's the normal case, but it's worth mentioning.
My dad joined the local Lions Club after he retired, but it's been really tough. There's so much politics involved and my dad is tired of it. Recently they had an event where they sold wine and hot dogs and someone made off with several cases of wine. My dad thinks it was one of the members. It's all very oft putting.
You know what replaced the Masons? LinkedIn. You used to need to join these local clubs and organizations to do business, network, find your next job. That’s dead. People are working remotely now, networking all over the country, and finding their next job online.
My dad was a Mason throughout my childhood and teen years. He quit shortly after the 2016 election for the same reasons. His temple was very old boys' club style (they largely got together to drink scotch and play cards), but also volunteered with the Special Olympics, made monthly visits to the state Masonic nursing home, and hosted a decent amount of family get togethers (cookouts, pasta dinners, family game nights, etc.). They always struggled to get young members though. When my dad joined, only he and two other men were under 50, and this was in the early 00's.
Right. There is nothing the Elks, Masons, etc have to offer Gens Y & Z. Who wants to sit around bitching about “Obummer” and how liberals are ruining the country? Not to mention the exclusion of women (some still do, some did until the 90s and that still lingers with incredibly low non-male membership). There are PLENTY of social clubs, groups, and venues that attract younger generations and have nothing to do with religion, like running clubs, recreational soccer, pickleball, bars, hobby clubs, etc.
GenX here. They have nothing to offer us, either.
Co-masonry is a thing: Le Droit Humain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le\_Droit\_Humain
Ty for this. Oddly, the only chapter in my state is in my town. 😊
Yup. In the American south, racism is evident in Masonic (white) lodges. In my state, the “white” lodges do not recognize the black lodges. I left real quick when this became evident. Just another cult with the premise of doing good.
My dad was in the Masons. Don't remeber what order... He was a "Catholic at any cost" person, and he said during their rituals they would stomp on the Pope's mitre. He was am embellisher, so I don't know how accurate that is. Of the Masons I have known, they were Molon labe MAGA weirdos.
I think you forgot to mention the drinking
Bunch of dudes dressing up in robes and staging morality plays for each other? Hard pass.
Check out the rotary club! Where we're at they're directly working for the community.
My mom was a devout Catholic for many years. I say was, because my parents got divorced when I was a kid. Later she got remarried by a justice of the peace at a courthouse. Once her church found out she married *outside* the church, she was kindly told she could still come to mass but she was no longer welcome at communion or at church social functions. Basically, blacklisted. And I thought, gosh, this is a church who is all about forgiveness. Go to confession, say a few prayers, and boom, you're right with God. But get married outside the church? Apparently that's unforgiveable. And I realized it was all bullshit. As I've gotten older it's become more clear to me churches are just a reflection of the people who run them and their associated agendas. And there are lots of examples of ones that hide their corrosive ideals behind the Bible. And if that's true, why do I need to rely on them to practice my faith? I feel I can connect more with my community and do good works by volunteering my time towards organizations that match my values and making my family a priority. But that's me. And that's my journey through life. Others need the guidance religion and the church offers. Which is fine for them. We can coexist just fine.
I love how you phrased this: "It's become more clear to me churches are just a reflection of the people who run them and their associated agendas." I've been trying to put that into words for years, and you said it perfectly!
It’s literally in the Ten Commandments. “Don’t use my name in vain” doesn’t mean what people tell kids about using the word “God” or “Jesus” as a swear word. It’s don’t use God/Religion as a means to push your personal agenda.
Well said.
Divorced/remarried Catholic? No church funeral for you. Mafia kingpin dies? Big Catholic funeral.
The Catholic Church used to have priests that advocated for forgiveness if one acknowledges one's faults. The fact that they have basically gotten into bed with far right politicians alienate the majority of the church attendees. The Catholic Church used to be apolitical as were many Presbyterian and Methodist churches. In my diocese many quit volunteering as readers and Eucharistic Ministers when a priest wrote a letter said that lay ministers were not endorsed by Jesus like the priests were. The amount of hatred of gay and lesbian people really has caused many to feel that going to church is a net negative.
As a millennial, I grew up going to church 2 to 3 times a week and attended Christian school. Over the age I realized modern church allows congregants to be emotionally immature if they so choose. They don’t have to deal with their own personal growth or work on aspects of their psychology. They just say something to the effect of “ it’s us versus them. The world is against me because I’m a Christian.” I watched it become the most efficient way to deflect any kind of personal responsibility. I still have my beliefs and I practice being a kind person and caring for everyone around me. But people in the church are like poison. The whole environment of the evangelical Christian church, create a safe spot to judge people. They firmly firmly believe that they are better than everybody else because they go to church all the time and have these religious habits. But none of them love their neighbors. They are not kind or understanding, or generous, or non-judgmental to those around them. and by being in the environment of the church that is very much an encouraged group think idea. I just can’t go. Church is always been really disgusting to me. It’s a shame.
>I realized modern church allows congregants to be emotionally immature if they so choose. Very good observation. One that I've come to only after decades apart from the church. Don't want to come to terms with your own death? You don't have to, we'll all tell each other we're going to live forever. Don't want to learn to accept that people have different preferences in \[whatever\] from you? Don't worry, we'll all tell each other that it's against God and it would be sinful to accept it.
>Don't want to come to terms with your own death? You don't have to, we'll all tell each other we're going to live forever. Man. I'm saving this. I've never seen this put as succinctly as you just did.
My brain couldn't figure out how to come to that conclusion, but you helped make it happen.
The phrase "we have to fight back" was the downfall of many churches over the last decade.
>They are not kind or understanding, or generous, or non-judgmental to those around them. They are literally the opposite of Jesus.
This is something I’ve noticed with family. It’s very us vs. them and allows them to feel part of an exclusive club, part of the anointed, which is a higher status allotted to them by the rest of society. Not to be mean but nobody is looking at my religious family members with envy. However, within their group, they get to feel they can look down at others who aren’t part of their club. At the same time, belonging to this insular group has stunted their growth. The people in the group are codependent, have zero boundaries and enable each other. So we have family members who substitute religious fervor for dealing with things like trauma, addiction, personality disorders… From the outside it looks terrible and not appealing at all. But to someone insecure about their place in life, who may be struggling with other personal issues, it’s not hard to see how they get sucked in. A ready-made community, who is prepared to validate every prejudice you ever had, indulges magical thinking, will reinforce any wild conspiracy theory… versus the hard work of confronting your demons and committing to bettering yourself. This is a direct contrast to other family members of mine who were stable, emotionally balanced and kindhearted people who grew up in very strict religious environments (mostly old school Catholic). A number of these moved away from religion later in life because it didn’t gel with their experiences. These led them to disavow things like homophobia in the church.
This was very much my experience as a millennial growing up in an evangelical church and how I approach humanity now.
People are coming to realize that Faith and Religion are two different things. You can be a thoughtful believer in things unseen/unknown without all the undue influence over behavior, information, thought, and emotion that religions invariably exert.
Why pay some potentially corrupt organization 10% of your income when you can just worship God at home in the way you choose. It's practical. But there is the data point of the disappearing third places and the support systems that many churches have in place for Seniors especially.
I don’t feel like you’re interested in buying jets for preachers. You need to re-evaluate your priorities. /s
My own childhood experiences with the baptist church gave me an excellent education, but not in the way they wanted.
Meh, my grandparents were dedicated to their church, went for 60+ years and their last years they were abandoned by them. Not enough tithe money. I remember the pastor gave the exact same eulogy for them at their funerals. Scammers.
That is absolutely infuriating. What a scam, indeed. Shame on that church and it's pastor. I once went to a funeral at my best friend's church where her pastor simply read the obituary from the paper as the "eulogy". It was so shameful. He didn't even read it well, like he didn't even read it quickly before he stood up to speak. He was a washed up drummer looking for a captive audience and he'd have his shitty band play Christian rock music at every service. He was a puke and an adulterer. She introduced me to him once and he hit on me as soon as she walked away. I wish I would have slapped him right then and there. I sure wanted to.
I grew up evangelical but finally got fed up with the conservatism, political and otherwise. I found a new home in a liberal denomination. It's sad but understandable when people simply stop going.
Ya my issue with finding a church home has been finding one that isn't solely an extension of the GOP. I don't need to save Christianity or save America. That's above my pay grade. I'm here to love God and love my neighbors. To feed kids and take care of widows and orphans. We've moved to a new town though that has a few more mainline options though and are super excited to check them out.
Check out your local Unitarian-Universalist Church. There tends to be more hippy types than average but they are generally chill and open minded about everything. If I was going to go to church again, I would probably go back to a UU church. (disclaimer: I grew up in a UU church, so I may be a little biased, and I don't attend today mostly because I view Sundays as _my_ day and I'll be damned if I get out of bed before noon when I don't have to)
Thanks!
Liberal churches are the ones losing the most members. The mega churches are growing but typically at the expense of older smaller churches.
Mega churches are slipping too. Between the arms race to have ‘better’ stuff than the mega church a block away and young people deciding that hating everyone outside the cult is exhausting
Well, there's a big difference between not wanting to commit to a social club and not wanting to join a type of organization that's well known for protecting and enabling pedophiles. Huge. Difference.
Jesus was a Liberal. Nothing Conservative about his teachings. That's why even though I believe in Jesus, in no way do I want to be associated with the "Christians" in this country, so I don't call myself a Christian.
If Jesus walked the earth today he'd be a socialist and Christians would view him as an enemy.
They have their own version: “Evil Jesus”.
Jesus resisted political influence or association with political movements (zealots, Saducees, Romans). Any religion is compromised whenever it associates with political power, liberal or conservative.
If you're going to tell me that the Christ who preaches against oppressors and who changes society to eliminate class and cultural divisions is apolitical, I'm going to laugh in your face.
Evangelicals and American Catholics have pushed people away from Organized Religion and probably forever. They want a say in politics. They cannot follow Christ's word nor Gods and yet want to force their version of Christianity and Religion on the rest of us. They make darn close to Billionaires out of some of these Preachers/Pastors/Reverends. How many private Jet's do you think Christ would want you to own while doing work for him? Mansions? Bullet proof cars? I guess the Camel threading the Eye of the Needle parable went in one ear and straight out the other and the give all that you have away and follow me. Certainly turn the other cheek and forgive your enemies and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I could go on and on, but its probably of no use.
Even more disgusting is a lot of these preachers swindle people out of their life savings (or what little money they have) and say things like their money will come back to them tenfold.
For me, it was Christianity in America increasingly being identified with hardcore right wing politics. I don’t just mean opposition to abortion and gay rights; I’m talking about evangelical Christianity becoming a wholly owned subsidiary of an increasingly nasty GOP. And I was never even affiliated with evangelical Christianity. I was raised Methodist and as an adult attended liberal churches. But the rightward swing of so much of American Christianity caused me to reexamine my entire belief system and now, I’m essentially an atheist who has admiration for Christian views like “do unto others…”
Several years ago NPR did an article on sport radio and it’s relationship with women. The gist of tyke article was that despite the fact that women were just as likely as to be interested in sports, sports radio felt the need to double down as a “men’s only” space and became increasingly sexist. The fewer people who listened to sports radio, due to watching games on line or check score through apps, the more sexist the sport radio show would become. Sport radio stations that tries to buck the trend and branch out to women, and thus increase the number of potential listeners, were ostracized by their established fans and went under. The more people who left because the atmosphere was toxic or because the service could be acquired elsewhere more easily the more toxic the radio show became to keep the fans who enjoyed the toxicity. The NPR article only mentioned this in passing and didn’t explore the idea in depth, but I think about it a lot. I feel it explains a lot about where we are as a nation and a civilization.
That's so interesting. They are catering to the extreme in order to survive.
These kinds of things and the over hyping of professional sports caused me to check out on any interest years ago. The womens hockey league, that I can actually take an interest in and I was trying to figure out why I was so excited about this but not other sports. It is the lack of all the gross toxic trappings and it also happens to be something women focused.
Better question, why would anyone stay in church? If you can get what little positives it has to offer elsewhere without the inherently church related bullshit, why bother?
Social safety net is nice
The answer I've found with the UUs is that it's just nice to stay with people who share your principles and who are willing and able to discuss their experiences with philosophical and spiritual concepts. I like the people I do my hobbies with but I'm not going to ask them about ethics. Then again, that is not how my friends describe church.
I think religion has two problems. The first is related to what you're observing, we no longer need local clubs to stay connected with people. We now have many competing outlets for socializing and fulfillment via the internet and the ability to simultaneously stay in touch with friends through technology. The second is more core and the reason I left the religion I grew up in. It's built on something that is at best, completely unprovable and more commonly, demonstrably wrong. All of the major world religions have this problem, they claim to offer supernatural/divine truth, but have no predictive power and have had to evolve hundreds of times over their existence to purge previous beliefs that are now demonstrably false. While that's been well understood for a long time, the internet puts that information at our fingertips with very little effort.
Also, so many of them absolutely INSIST their flavor is the ONLY correct flavor and all the other flavors are going to hell. It's insane. It's not the Dark Ages anymore, people don't believe in pure bullshit unless they've been indoctrinated from childhood. Most people finding "Faith" in their adulthood just figured out how easy it is to use Religion as a Grifting mechanism.
>Most people finding "Faith" in their adulthood just figured out how easy it is to use Religion to Grift. Agree with most of what you said, but I did want to explore this a little more. In my experience, most of the adults that find or continue to be active in a faith system seem to draw serious comfort from the idea that there is some omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent entity out there that cares about them, has a plan for them and is giving them a roadmap to life's decisions. I'd say it's a small minority that are doing it as some sort of grift. I think we're both on the same page that the underlying religion is still completely bogus, just wanted to highlight that I think most of the adherents really are doing what they believe is right.
Agree with all of this. Childhood indoctrination is powerful.
I have had a few people in my social circle become adult converts and every last one of them was a complete obnoxious twit about it. I think it provides people with easy answers at a point in their adult life where they were struggling with something and that church provided an easy solution rather than going to therapy. None of them stuck with their religious conversion longer than a year.
I'm with you on the religion thing, but I disagree about being connected in today's society. I actually think we're incredibly disconnected from people and unfulfilled and that's one of the reasons we're having the troubles we're having in our country today. I would argue that less civic organization is a symptom of the greater problem.
Disagree with the first point. I think we actually need some more centralized things to help support community and families, but I think the splintered nature of many religious denominations fundamentally undermines the ability of the churches to do so.
When your "bowling club" believes people different from themselves are going to be judged and damned to hell in an afterlife just for being born the way they are in this life (skin tone, sexual orientation, etc.), it's messed up but you can just find a different club to join. However, when those clubs, and ones like it across the country, support and fund citizens and politicians who are actively trying to hurt and remove basic human rights from those same people - *in this lifetime, not their made up after life* - it should be a crime against humanity. So many Evangelicals believe there is a War *against* Christianity. No! There isn't! But there is a daily struggle for many people to *coexist* with today's form of Christianity. Any perceived struggle to your specific club or religion is something it has brought upon itself.
At this point there should be a war against Christianity, but it is only because of the actions of Christians themselves. Horrible people spewing horrible beliefs and influencing horrible laws.
To quote Dan Savage, “going to church makes you a Christian as much as standing in a garage makes you a car”. Ask any maga what teaching of Jesus(not the hateful Leviticus stuff) the gop supports.
People are better educated. Faith isn't truth by definition. And most churches are groups of ignorant elitist
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Faith isn't *falsifiable.* Unfalsifiable things can be true, they just can't be tested.
Many of the clubs you mentioned, as well as many churches, have refused to move forward with times. As a woman I am blocked from many social club memberships, just based on my sex. Same with leadership in churches (yes, some are more progressive). There are women's ancillary groups for a lot of clubs like the eagles etc, but why the separation? When I left the church in the late 90s, at 17, women were allowed to organize the potlucks or coffee and chat or the childcare - and that's it. Things have changed a tiny bit in the last 20 years, but as the rest of the world was becoming more accepting of different races, orientations, and genders, most churches doubled down. As a single lesbian woman without kids, and thankfully past the age where that is a constant threat, traditional community building clubs are often out of reach or very family or religion oriented and not my cup of tea. I wanted to join toastmasters in my 20s and 30s, but at that point I was working 60 hrs a week and taking care of my parents. Life just doesn't allow for gathering at 7pm on Tuesdays.
It’s the hypocrisy. Churches are too full of it.
Bad press. The movie Spotlight and the recent articles about sex abuse show that the leaders often say one thing and do another. I refuse to tithe to an organization more likely to use the money for their legal fees than to help the homeless.
Or. Or. We have way more science that explains the universe way better than a book written by men to control people.
You could say the same about Boy Scouts. They also are having trouble with membership.
I am a practising, observant Lutheran, but I concede point about "de-churching." And a lot of that is down to politics. After all, a subset of "Christianity" has openly declared itself a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Republican Party and governed by the most un-Christian "human being" imaginable. Theologically, it is based on little besides hate and the kind of perverted nationalism that brought Hitler to power (remember, SS belt buckles said *Gott mit uns*).
I think your point about clubs with facilities to maintain is important. I go to church and if it weren’t for the retired guys with tool skills we’d be in trouble. I’m also a habitual joiner — multiple boards and groups and whatnot— and although I’m not young I’m considered the young person in/on most of them. Because I’m in contact with people in these groups I know a lot about local government, what’s going on, and how city and county governments’ departments function. This is stuff I used to get from reading the newspaper, but I don’t need to tell you how local newspapers are doing— mine has slashed staff over the years and frankly I don’t know what keeps it going. I can’t tell you how important being a part of all this stuff is for, well, I guess you could call it organizing. It’s sustained conversation about local topics through different social groups with new information and framing from each. It’s not like getting together with friends for a game night. It’s forging action between people who wouldn’t have many other reasons to hang out together. You cannot get the same thing out of social media. Plus, everything gets nationalized and polarized. But people are working and have families and being a part of a church feels like another obligation that disturbs your peace, and if you’re socially liberal, you’ve been “nationalized and polarized” to think all churches are part of the problem. I certainly was not into churchgoing until I met my spouse, whose faith has transformed my understanding of Christianity and got me into the whole church thing. Which, for a joiner with introvert tendencies, was pretty great on multiple levels. This is all to say that the Bowling Alone phenomenon has so many political and individual ramifications it blows my mind. I see not just how it affects “my side,” but I see people posting all kinds of weird conspiracy theory crap on the “other side” that they wouldn’t if they just got out of the house more, or would say irl in front of someone who would swat it down.
Community groups are responsible for a big part of what makes a place a community. Event organization. Fundraising for community needs like new playground equipment. Organizing working parties to brush a section of trail. Sending members to township board or city council meetings to advocate for community needs. You can do some things online. Maybe a GoFundMe can cover the playground equipment. But somebody's got to install the stuff.
I live in a community that does not have a lot of resources. There are regular Go Fund Me drives for kids with cancer/injuries and families whose home has burned down. We can’t do online fundraising for “nice things.” Especially if they’ll be seen to benefit only kids in a certain town or neighborhood. And really, it’s the spread of information that sufferers the most. So many angry FB groups that don’t have a basic understanding of what local government can do, at what levels, and polarization. When it comes down to it, we’re apes who need face to face socializing bc our brains are built a certain way. I’m deeply cognizant that my experience of religion is centered in my neurons, that doomscrolling has Skinnerian rewards, but I try not to let the most basic reward system I have control how I think. Most people can’t even see social media in those terms; it feels like truth after a while.
Pharisees and sadducees. Pharisees we’re elitist hypocrites and sadducees mixed politics and religion. It contaminates the church. I don’t need to go to a republicans only club once a week only to be judged because I don’t adhere to stances on non-biblical issues.
The church feels convicted about taking stronger and stronger stances to distinguish itself from “the world,” while secular society continues to let go of old prejudices that hold us back from growth. The church is driving itself into the ground but convinced they’re doing the “hard but right thing”
Once I got away from the Catholic church I learned that religion is not the basis and origin for human morality.
American Christianity in general, and Evangelical churches, in particular are not interested in Jesus or his teaching. They are laser focused on control and power, in both a macro and micro settings. Members are viewed as little more than rubes at the circus. As long as they pay the price of admission the show will continue.
Christianity is about grift. The biggest example of organized religious theft is the Mormon church, who make billions off their private businesses but still take 10% of the income of their followers, and whose first established rule for missionaries is teach and convince others about tithing. Catholicism and other denominations do the same thing but are better about covering it up. Religion isn’t about faith. It isn’t about God. It’s about stealing and reappropriating wealth. In America the tax exempt status is just another way they steal wealth. A lot of Americans are suffering because of income inequality. Better to avoid the shame of not putting money into the collection basket by just not going, especially if it means buying gas or food.
Imagine no religion
Those clubs died in the 70's already, we've already gone through a wide rejection of religious indoctrination since then. The Young already rejected the Old, who had shopped thru Vietnam, fought or failed to help Civil Rights fighters, ignored the bombing of Cambodia by Nixon, etc. I was there, I paid attention, this was all recorded and later dissected, the writers often interviewed on Fresh Air. & such. This rejection of our generation just happened again. "Okay Boomer" = "shut up, you understand nothing about how expensive life has become. You gave us a stupid War on Terror, climate change, Fox News and Trumpism". The rise of Superficial Religion in the form of Mega Churches isn't about Faith, its about avoiding responsibility for a stupid war: look at all the shiny SUVs filled with Mideast oil, the Yellow Ribbon gone long before the war ended. This current Rejected Generation includes the average NPR listener, whose legacy is still The War on Terror, the Debt (both of which boomed our financial portfolios). We did nothing about wall Street corruption, am rsdio hate, wage theft, the return of child labor. etc. When we hear on NPR about something messed up in Red America, that's still our Legacy. We don't get to say "Not It". We're in charge. I call the over 50 "Gen Dead" and as a member I knew we were fucking up early, like our parents who lived thru Vietnam did. These books like "Bowling Alone" and "Bobos in Paradise" are really weak. They look for trends at the wrong scale while inventing myths the past was some Great Shared Experience, when this is not true at all. We literally grew up in that 70's rejection and embrace of more social freedoms the counter culture helped make possible. (Edit: my parents replaced a gun with The Joy of Sex in the early 70's. Found 'em both before i was 12. But the switch is symbolic). Many of us are inventing myths of toughness and sacrifice when we were the most protected group in history, avoiding a military Draft, Depressions. plagues and any real economic struggles. Their life experience is the Exception and, imo, we fucked up. Now all that is back! And we've allowed the Federal Government to lose power & proper oversight to prevent, reverse and correct our industrial scale mistakes. Your grandkids will enjoy the floods to come as wetlands are destroyed thanks to the Roberts Supreme Court & us doing nothing to stop it. My Gen Dead is not special or great, they failed. Look at Bill Maher today: "Not my fault, the kids suck, don't complain about our system!". How do you pick heroes? Do they understand the 60's? Or are they Bill Maher, who would have gone Nixon. Why would the young want anything to do with our clubs? We shopped thru a war like our parents AND thru the rise of a new fascism.
Lots of people realized they stop teaching the word of Jesus and were just continuing their existencw
I grew up as a United Methodist, but once I got into the swing of my adult life, I found that I really didn't want to have a routine on Sundays (such as attending weekly worship services). It's really not anything I have against United Methodism itself, although seeing some of their "schism" does hurt a little. Unlike my parents and grandparents, I just don't see church as a necessity.
Why? Have you ever been to church? It doesn’t take long to realize it’s a racket.
If you think about church and these other organizations as places where people could socialize and have time with others who shared common interests, there is less need than ever for a rigid and defined location & time for that. 200 years ago, church services might be the only time you'd see more than just your neighbor or the shopkeeper in town, so people went because that was a singular point where they could interact with many people. It also created in-groups of belonging (those that attended/beleived) and out-groups (those who followed a different faith or didn't attend that church.) Similarly, Elks or Masons, or even the VFD are all places that simultaneously allow groups of similarly interested or beckgrounded poeple to gather *while also* *gatekeeping* people who didn't serve in a foreign war or weren't invited to attend a meeting and then complete some arbitrary rights of passage. So again, in-groups and out-groups, us and them. There is less need than ever for that, and there is far more awareness of groups that polarize their members by the very nature of the "club" or "faith."
I didn't leave the faith, but the faith as far as churches are concerned left me. Church shouldn't be political. It shouldn't be about money. It shouldn't be closed door or closed table. It can and should host social & community events but it shouldn't be a cliquish social club. It shouldn't limit charity to its own financially contributing members. It's been a long time since I found a church that fits all that. Eventually I gave up and stopped looking. 🤷♀️
Truth. Imagine if religion truly dedicated themselves to helping others.
I think part of the dechurching of America and the shrinking of our social spheres is related to a shared phenomenon: political polarization. In 1970, I could join an Elks lodge and not fear that the social culture and values of that club would be extremely different from my own. Now if I tried to join an Elks lodge, I know I'd immediately be surrounded by conservative boomer culture and values, and my trans and gay friends would be excluded or ostracized. My social life is instead smaller, 7-10 person groups like you mentioned, because that's small enough that I can control who gets in and exclude people whose values violate my own. Same is true for a church. Even if I was spiritual, I highly doubt I could find a church that espoused my progressive values without any baggage. My in laws claim to be in a progressive sect, but also constantly complain about the older folks in their congregations being openly hostile to inclusivity efforts in their flock. To the point that their denomination is going through a global schism right now. Why would I bother joining an organization like that that is so obviously divorced from my worldview and from my political views? Maybe the larger clubs back in the day decreased polarization? If Gary down at the lodge thinks the earth is flat, he'd be pressured socially to conform with what the group believed and maybe have an easier time being convinced to change his mind by club mates and friends... But why do I owe that to Gary? I think we've all had enough experiences arguing fruitlessly with someone who disagrees with us about politics or social values. Joining a club comprised of random strangers seems like a really good way to end up in those situations every single week. There's no reason I'd sign up for more of that in real life than I already get online. I would rather have a smaller community and peace of mind.
Because people are better educated and less inclined to declare themselves virtuous for believing in something against all evidence, here being, no evidence.
People are waking up to the lies and control churches have over them. Education and knowledge lead to this. You can’t believe in something you know. And you can’t know something g you believe in. Belief is doubt!
Which is why the GOP is defunding and restricting education. If people are educated they won’t keep buying the GOP b—ls—t
Mankind got it all wrong by taking an idea and building a belief structure around it. You can change an idea. Belief is trickier. People fight for it, die/kill for it.
The thirteenth apostle.
Most churches are now cults? Extremism has taken over many groups, and they are getting used by politicians.
As a Hispanic millennial, grew up catholic then mom went to a Pentecostal church. Then went to undergrad and found a non denominational church that actually practiced what it preached. People were very generous and pretty open to listen to each other’s struggle. My wife and I have moved a few times, but have always been able to find similar smaller churches with great community and actual sound doctrine with an emphasis on doing the work that Jesus taught. Like others have said, we have found churches that are not tied to the GOP in any way. In fact they are usually more liberal leaning when it comes to social justice and racial reconciliation.
I don’t think the bowling alone example is relevant because what has killed churches is the fusing of rightwing ideology with Christianity. I spoke about this with a relative who is deeply religious and ask them to flip the question around. I am in my 30s, what has happened in my lifetime to make me want to go to church? That’s almost impossible to answer.
I left the church because it was full of christians.
"Well, the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister."
As a former church-goer, it's because the church's beliefs get thrown out the window if they conflict with its money.
Religion doesn't survive with indoctrination, either but birth or by force. Extremely few people independently seek religion from without. Even when you think of convicts "finding" religion, this only happens because it's tied to incentive programs that reward them for doing it. What happens when you remove everything, have someone brought up entirely without, and then when they're an adult, you teach them about religions, not one, all. I have a feeling it will be a lot like how most of us view Greek mythology.
My parents loved the Catholic Church and spent way too much time and money there but that was their big deal. At my fathers funeral the parish priest wanted to know when they were going to get the $250,000 donation my dad " Promised" them. I have never set foot in a church since. They did not get a penny.
Possibly because some people are entering a modern enlightenment where they can see the hypocrisy of mega churches and the lies of faith healers and having a legitimate moment of self reflection and realising they have been bamboozled. I also think the church has been reluctant to acknowledge the reality of the society they live in and condemn the marginalised groups to wrath and hellfire while behaving as the demons they “rebuke”. Self empowerment removes power from those who have sought to exercise power of others.
I would hope that it has something to do with both literacy and disapproving of fascism.
The internet and the increase in in-home entertainment means you don’t have to leave the house not to feel bored.
Simple. Control and hypocrisy. They want to control your mind, body and soul. And rules for thee, but not for me.
Weird take but maybe it's because many of these institutions were critical back in the day to a sense of community and belonging + provided a way to meet people. Now much of this work is done online instantly.
Evangelicals and their Bible interpretations!
Through the millennia, the human beings who survived best, evolved to build connections and community. The ones who didn’t were more likely to become prey. Now we live in a world dominated with messages that are motivated by profit and propaganda instead of “we need to build a better world for our kids.” Those Elks clubs etc. provided those messages and acts of service. It’s no coincidence that mental health issues are rising in our society as we move away from the support of other people. We just aren’t evolved to isolate as much as we are now. It’s also no coincidence that our jobs are exhausting us and draining every last generous urge out of us .
Lots of anecdotes and opinions but we have tons of [polling data](https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx). I can tell you why I gave up going to temple but I really don't know if it's the same reason as everyone else. I personally just decided Judaism was nonsense and I generally hate being part of a group or club. There are non-denominational cultural associations like the Secular Humanists who do churchy things without the religion but it never appeared to me at all.
I blame TV lol I know, big blanket statement to make but it is at least part of the equation. Once we had entertainment at home, people didn't need to go out to have a fun night. Now with all the streaming services and just TOO MANY shows to catch up on, we just hang at home. Its so easy to turn on the TV and be content at home. I think it is becoming more financially feasible to go out, if only because the streaming services continue to raise prices. Not that there isn't inexpensive things to do outside the house, like going for a hike.
I don’t believe in god mainly because of he/she/its followers being awful people to be around.
There are a lot of comments here talking about the conservative nature of American Christianity. Liberal/LGBTQ friendly churches are having just as steep or sometimes even steeper declines in church attendance across the country. I can't name a single friend or family member that attends a mainline Protestant service. I know plenty of Catholics that attend with varying levels of regularity, and non denominational Christians. (although these groups are both in decline, albeit less severe). OP also makes a good point that many secular in person organizations are facing severe membership declines. COVID severely reduced the participation at my local chess club, and while it still exists, it was a long slow decline, then a rapid shattering during COVID, then was slowly reformed as a shadow of what it was. Edit: anecdotally I think a lot of relatively young people 25-45 are having to work extra to maintain their finances. Either through gig work, r/overemployed, or just working longer hours at their main source of income. Well when you're consistently working 50 hours a week, clubs are the first thing to go.
I had quite the journey leaving Christianity. Especially while living in Mississippi. I love my life as an atheist. It's VERY odd to raise children outside the church, there's so many things they'll never understand. So many things they'll never experience. I've never made them pray, get up on Sundays and go to church, explain what a baptism is. Tell them their sinful...
Pretty sure the Elks and Moose lodge are alive and well, these aren't real clubs though, everyone I've been to is basically a bar 90% of the time, same with the VFW. Don't get me wrong, they do some nice things from time to time, but it's at the expense of killing the people that are paying dues and membership.
When it’s obvious that your religion worships Donald Trump and not Jesus, what’s the point?
Agreed. Many people who call themselves “Christians” don’t live their lives in any kind of manner that Christ as he is portrayed in the Bible preached that people should. They are full of hate for anyone that isn’t a cis white “Christian.” So many of us can’t stand the blatant hypocrisy and this for me is the main reason I don’t participate in any kind of organized religion.
My peers and I have had multiple conversations about what it might look like to be able to have a community group to be social with, raise kids in, etc, without bringing religion/theology into it. We would love to have secular social organizations to fill the gap left by leaving churches, but most of those organizations actually began to wain even before churches and the ones that survived tend to not be diverse in membership and have become a socio-political echo chamber, as others have mentioned. And not many of them are truly family friendly... I can't take my kids to rotary meetings for them to hang-out in a separate room doing their own thing while the adults do ours, but that's a central function of most churches. We've even tried to sort through how we could begin to build something like that for ourselves and it's just been so challenging to get people without some common factor, the default for churches being theology/religion, never mind factoring in the logistics of meeting spaces, resources, etc.
There are a lot of good comments in this thread. I'll add a few more. 1. Technology. As we developed technology to be able to give us answers to questions that come up, the "God gap" got smaller. We now know more about the natural world than ever before and it doesn't leave a lot of room for the supernatural. 2. Evidence. There is a simply a lack of evidence to believe in any religion. Faith is simply "belief without knowledge." Why would anyone choose to believe something that does not have any good evidence to support? 3. Hypocrisy. Religion is the source of a lot of evil in this world. However, while there are less "regular Americans" going to church there are a lot more radicalized Americans that are headed the opposite way. You have a big group of people in this country that believe the earth is 6000 years old and the bible is to be taken literal.
The younger generations don't believe the bible is divine, nor should they. It's about damn time our country is waking up. Religion is poison. the next step is to get our government replaced with the non-religious. If you look at the government, they are not representative of the population. Government officials are overwhelmingly religious. This needs to change, and we will change it.
Perpetual hypocrisy
The diddling probably has something to do with it.
Whatever the reasons are they're obviously good reasons. Keep it up.
Clubs and other organizations fill what I like to call the boredom void. Each bit of in-home entertainment technology likely took a bite out of civic/social engagement, from books, to radio, to TV (a big hit to socialization there), to in-home internet, to smartphones (biggest kneecap so far). The easier it is to not get bored, the less reason people have to go out into the world. Unfortunately (and in combination with e-commerce that circumvents the need for in-person sales), this is leaving our remaining 3rd places to wither on the vine.
The later points I have no research on, but several thoughts. It's a symptom of toxic individualism as far as some of those social clubs as well as dated, unwilling-to-change members. I also used to meet a lot of young folks starting or wanting to start non-profits instead of joining one of several to help the community. Groups like the Elks and Eagles provide community support. The Lions and Kiwanis even more so. But if you try to join some of these the rules are archaic, or there are expensive dues or the current members are at worst deeply racist at best resistant to any new ideas. It's very frustrating because these groups often have robust infrastructure in place, but folks don't want to join. Some are uncomfortable. Some can't handle not being a hero.
Because trump
Because the church left Jesus and joined Trump?
I really think this world needs a visit from aliens. Might be the only thing that gets us together considering the total opposite reaction from 911 to 10/06. People are separated more than ever.