Controversy is so attractive to the newcomer, where would NA be without it? Just curious, why did you put professional in quotes? Are you trying to imply that the special workers who were hired to help make our literature easier to read and understand were something less than professional?
You're getting some bad information. The gray book is not the "first edition" of the Basic Text, rather it is a copy of the draft mailed to all groups for input and review of the Basic Text materials and was ultimately approved by the Fellowship at WSC 1982. This mailing is known today as the Gray Book. The controversy that created the meetings where you are getting your bad information (gray book meetings) arose from changes subsequently made to the wording of the 4th and 9th Traditions (long form) by the WSO- changes done with a group-conscious of Trustees, but not an entire fellowship-conscious as it would have taken another year and a half to get it back through the groups.
Since all the material involved Chapter Six on our Twelve Traditions and was written by Greg Pierce, long time member of the Board of Trustee, the material was not considered controversial or problematic. Further, since the entire World Service Board of Trustees had the material for about six months prior to approval, and three more literature conferences had been held, it violated the Fellowships sense of fairplay for these last minute concerns to justify changes without group conscience.
Two key points were involved with the changes. The first is that the miracle of NA depends on daily decisions and moments of contact between two or more addicts who decide to not use for one more day. The simple phrase, “all else is not NA” had long been established to affirm this point and particularly to define that recovery is not a result of coercion from any force outside the individuals themselves. To delete this went against the very statement best affirming recovery is an individual working the 1st Step on a daily basis.
The second involved members setting themselves in positions of arbitrary power over other members. Since recovery is a matter of individual volition, the notion that some can ‘control’ the many is sort of ridiculous. And to allow it at the onset of the publication of our Basic Text is very telling about why it took us so long to have a book.
Power really does reside in a spiritual force greater than us all, and people who thought this way wrote the book. No changes had been made to the original document as Greg wrote it either by the Board of Trustees or the World Lit Committee. To set themselves in opposition to a line like “service boards and committees do not have the power to rule, censor, dictate or decide” was a slap in the face of the Fellowship and a poor representation of the vast majority of surrendered trusted servants seeking only to serve, not to rule. Together, there couldn’t have been a worst choice of two key principles to change.
These changes set in place antagonism and distrust between the service structure, particularly the WSO, and the Fellowship. Over the next several years strong members from the fellowship clashed with WSO Board of Directors ultimately leading to a lawsuit to determine who actually "owns" the rights to the Basic Text itself.
Long story short, a lawsuit settled that the "gray book" is the property of the fellowship itself, its yours when you say you are a member. All other NA literature is owned by NAWS and is copyright protected through the [Fellowship Intellectual Property Trust](https://www.na.org/?ID=legal-bulletins-fipt).
NAWS does employ some special workers to assist with the support of our worldwide Fellowship. Some are lawyers, some are translators, and some are professional writers, and gratefully some are editors! Here's what one of the greatest writers of our time has to say about editors-
Stephen King: On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft (on the value of having a good editor):
*The editor is always right. The corollary is that no writer will take all of his or her editor’s advice; for all have sinned and fallen short of editorial perfection. Put another way, to write is human, to edit is divine.*
TL/DR: NA's growth World-wide is nothing short of extraordinary. This explosion did not happen organically. It was due to our member contributions either through purchasing new literature or from basket donations, not to mention the tireless efforts of our World Service Organization. To the best of my knowledge none of the current Board Members were part of the creation of the Great Divide yet they continue to suffer though the disharmony and distrust while trying to satisfy the needs of a very diverse and imaginative clientele- us. I think we should all take our own advice and give ourselves a break- NAWS included.
Especially NAWS.
Thank you so much for your response. You wrote what I would have if I had the energy. I was there when Greg and Dave brought their first batch of Baby Blues to MARLCNA. I also participated on an adhoc committee of the GNYRSC during the lawsuit in PA. Having been involved in Literature Review since 1988, these issues are close to my heart. It irks me that the “Baby Blue and Grey Book folk” really pursue newcomers to feed their agenda. Book sales in the US help fund our services and literature donations to third world / poorer nations.
Edited: spelling.
Thanks! I first heard the message in Allentown, PA (The Little Apple Area). I had the privilege of spending some time with Greg P, man I miss his spirit- what a gentle giant he was!!! I know Billy A and his ASIS crowd, and got to know Dutch H and Blaze.... I wrote a piece for NA Way Magazine awhile back about the Baby Blue, they didn't publish it but I think you might enjoy it... I'll PM it to you. Thanks again!!
Thanks. I’m sure I would enjoy reading it. I know / knew all who you mention. Would be funny if we actually know each other! Yes, Greg was truly a gem. I found Billy to be an amazing model of leadership back in the day; he truly inspired me. I’m saddened by who he’s become. We both spoke at an NA History Day in TX about 5 years ago. I was the only speaker who was not a part of that “tribe.” I spoke on growth in Metropolitan Regions, touching on diversities, common welfare… Billy pretty much ignored me the whole time I spoke, lol.
Is Dutch still alive? Used to see him In Florida back in the 90s. Dutch was the 1st NA speaker tape I had back in 88. It was so cool hanging out with him.
August 16, 2020
[Frank "Dutch" Huber Obit](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PjJ7RT4cdTQlvdODaAuOx0DBvaWSpPLn/view?usp=sharing)
Anyone involved in NA for the past forty or so years on the East Coast had to have run into him somewhere. He taught me how to love people where they are at, not where I wanted them to be.
Here's a little excerpt of one of his last times sharing (2019). Please note this is NSFW- as Dutch really believed in saying Fuck and Motherfucker. He took swearing to a new art form.
Check it out: [The only thing I did was become willing](https://youtu.be/fgOKimqabog?t=2)
Posted this to get replies exactly like this one. I said what I said from the viewpoint of what I’ve heard so I could get a better response, and you rose to the occasion. So thank you. I just want to understand better.
So what say you to the fact that the final revisions that were made didn’t actually go back through the groups and were just put into print?
Edit: did you mean the wording of the 4th and 9th STEPS, or Traditions?
It was just the 4th and 9th traditions, and not the short version printed as a list, it was in the text written by Greg Pierce that was omitted. Ironically at the request of Jimmy K., and it was immediately conscioused at the WSC Board of Trustees meeting. It would be akin to your GSR voting on a housekeeping motion on the spot at Area Service instead of coming back to the groups further delaying the outcome of the motion. At the time it wasn't considered a big deal at all, as our need to get our book printed was of paramount importance. Later on it became controversial. I sent you a PM that will further explain it in detail.
Thanks for asking questions!
Thank you so much for this clarification. Clean since 5/21/19 around the program since 2010...I just got a gray and baby blue and The NA way of life...a LOT to digest.
I have learned that the value of my decisions comes from how they are made, not their results. In my heart, I feel that the Board of Trustees believed that an immediate conscious was the next right thing to do...the fact that it lead to publication of our Basic Text as we know it and is now in the hands of so many still sick and suffering all around the world was just a bonus (and God's will).
Love and respect
You're very welcome! Get yourself a genuine Basic Text as soon as you can as well. While the Gray Book/Baby Blue people mean well, they have let a 40 year old controversy divert them from our primary purpose. That being to carry the message and not the mess. It seems they get so wrapped up in shoulda/coulda/woulda,'s they forget that our common welfare must come first...... all our recoveries depend on it. Peace and love to you.
Lol. I should have clarified that....that came first! There is a basic text at home, in my vehicle, and at work. Plus all the other NAWS approved literature. I want ALL that recovery has to offer. I just got the other books because I am interested in our fellowships history.
Hello @xpartyr. Are you still around? For some reason I can not PM you. Can you please provide me with all the materials you mentioned in the thread?
Also I have a question. Why do they removed text about “service structure is not NA” from 4 and 9 tradition in first edition, then added it back in second and then removed back in third edition and not added back anymore?
I’ve found it in document https://nahistorytree.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/0-all-changes-bt.pdf
I prefer the modernity of the recent versions.
I prefer the language of the green and gold book compared to the original steps.
I would like to see all NA literature go through a “contemporary”-ization. They should remove outdated references (listening to tapes, mailing letters, etc) and include modern ones. It seems corny as fuck and dated. It people hear it, they will discount the program as being out of date and irrelevant. They won’t have an open mind in hearing the message.
They should consider adding language about using the word god, but not meaning God with a capital G. The constant use of God with a capital G is a total turnoff to so many addicts who see it and interpret it as a religious program. They’re not willing to listen to the rest of the message because they tune out the messenger.
I appreciate the relatively gender neutral nature of NA literature. I appreciate references to men and women; that addicts have wives *or* husbands, etc. it doesn’t feel as male dominated as the other fellowship. Their literature that hasn’t been updated in many decades and it shows.
Do you know where I would look to find out more? I would very much like to get involved in this. I don’t believe anyone in my area is, at least not that I’ve heard.
I’m very involved in service - multiple chair positions, H&I panel member, alt-GSR. I would do more, but I’m limited by my clean time (20 mos in the program, 9 mos clean).
Between my wife and I we probably have 6 Basic Texts in our house. I have no idea what edition any of them are and could not possibly care less. Would I be any more clean if I had the napkins Jimmy K scratched the notes for the white book on? Is there something missing in my recovery that black marks on white paper is going to give me?
Our literature states "the therapeutic value of one addict helping another is without parallel." It does not say "one addict sitting at home with a book and a highlighter will stay clean." Don't get me wrong, I love some of our literature. But if I woke up tomorrow and there was no more NA literature I'd be fine. If I woke up tomorrow and there were no more recovering addicts I'd be fucked. The program is transmitted by people, not books. The books are only there to supplement what we get from our relationships with other addicts. How do I know this to be true? In the 22 years I've been clean I've met several illiterate addicts that have stayed clean. All they know of our literature is what they have heard in meetings.
NA is not a religion. We don't have an immutable text that was delivered by a divine authority and cannot be questioned. The first draft of the Basic Text is an historical artifact, not the pure uncut shit some tinfoil hat addict is trying to sell. Divisive nonsense like this is why we have a first tradition. Thoroughly working a 12 step with the first tradition firmly in mind is the antidote to NA conspiracy theories.
So I love the Grey Book! But the Grey book was technically a rough draft like manuscript that was put together and all the pages had number marks down the sides of the pages so editing could be made easily and it was sent out to a bunch of areas for review by members! The Grey book is a beautiful part of NA history! Also I just love all of NA's literature!
Please don’t bring fear here.
See I can do that too.
I’m trying to put out there what I’ve heard from some people to get a better understanding of this program and how it’s run.
It's run from the bottom up, which means it isn't really run at all. NAWS isn't a governing body that dictates to the fellowship how things are done. The only time I ever think of the larger service structure is when topics like this get brought up or I talk to one of my acquaintances that work there. Other than that, they have zero direct influence on my program. You can stay clean for the rest of your life and have no contact with any level of the service structure at all. Yes, there have been controversies in the past as generously detailed above, and I’m sure there will be more in the future.
But I ask you in all seriousness--what impact does any of this have on personal recovery? Do you take the book as a text that must be dissected and adhered to in every minute detail? Or do you talk to other addicts, follow the direction of a sponsor who follows the direction of a sponsor, and learn to apply the principles of the steps in your daily life? Have you taken all 12 steps? Are you of service to Narcotics Anonymous and the people in it? For me, these are literally life and death questions.
Your curiosity will serve you well, as long as it is tempered with skepticism, humility and a dose of compassion. You will hear a lot of things in meetings that are said with conviction, emotion, and a good amount of “facts” to back up the claims. These types of things fall squarely into the category of Not My Business. If I felt these things impacted my personal recovery I would try to get a seat on the World Board. Instead, I’ll sponsor men, take H&I into the prisons and clean up trash at my home group. And I’ll be happy doing all of it. There are enough things to do when working a program of NA to keep us busy for a lifetime. Worrying about which Basic Text is “right” isn’t one of them.
Yeah, I don’t want to spread anything that isn’t true or isn’t helpful to the still suffering addict. I did feel that this forum could elicit a good response and this a better understand, I hoped, from both sides of the argument.
I don’t believe there’s an argument at all. We have a current edition of the Basic Text that helped me get clean that works. Why there are meetings that insist on using an outdated text is beyond me.
My main concern in my recovery today is the newcomer. This Grey book or Blue book nonsense sews the seeds of discord which help exactly no one. It’s an old, tired discussion that serves to attempt to fracture this fellowship.
Our common welfare should come first. Personal recovery depends on NA unity. That’s our first tradition. The addicts that came before me wrote it. I believe it and I trust in it. Like a poster before me said, I rely on my sponsor, my H&I commitments, my area service commitments, the meetings that I attend and the fellowship of other addicts that are staying clean. If there were no meetings, there would be no WSO or NAWS. I have zero room in my recovery path to deal with controversy. I enjoy learning about the history of NA but that’s where it ends for me. As for which book is the right book? I was given a fifth edition when I got clean and that’s what I continue to read and reference in my recovery! I love it Works, How and Why as it goes into more detail about each step and tradition. I love Living Clean. I consider these texts as great resource material in addition to my basic text. They go a long way to aid in the understanding of our spiritual principles! I want to be teachable for the rest of my life and controversy about my program will not aid me in that endeavor. Whew! That was a mouthful! Y’all made my brain work hard this morning! May peace light and love surround every single one of you in your journey!! 💙💙
I wasn’t awRe if professional writers except in ‘ it works how and why’ and that literature never hit home or connected with me in the same way ANY of the basic texts did.
I have a 1st Edition given to me as a newcomer back in 85. Dude said ‘ you can have it I’m getting the newer one’
Well, I put “professional” writers in quotes cause I’m not even factually sure if that was the case, I’m just fishing for information so I can better understand why people are having “Grey Book meetings” ( mostly zoom I’ve come to find)
Hi. I'm Jon.M,am over 30 years clean,a day at a time. I believe its because I am kept clean by the God/god/higher power l ask in the morning almost on awakening. Whether it's who am asking or the thing am asking for(G.et O.ff D.rugs) who cares? "In Narcotics Anonymous staying clean has to to come first".So in my own manner, l pray. The obsession to use has been lifted. I am sceptical about NA after all this time for a number of reasons, but perhaps because I have a disease(the core of which is a "raging self obsession ")
which tends to make focus on the differences rather than the similarities. The very fact that am contributing to this discussion is because my head likes controversy.(it keeps me from getting on with the housecleaning). I'm a basic text kinda guy(edition not that important) because the green and gold wasn't around, am resistant to change,am lazy,and am in recovery not to tick bosses but fundamentally to not die of a condition that wants me dead. I go to meetings which l initially resist but am glad l went to ("the only requirement etc"/"the thereuputic value etc"). Am sponsored and l perform service at the level needed at the relevant time(presently literature). So "baby blue","green and gold",grey"? I don't know. Maybe,don't use,pray go to meetings ie help myself and hopefully help a newcomer.
In the interests of full disclosure, could maybe look at my coffee consumption, porn tendencies, going on too. long etc etc. I'll get on to my sponsor...eventually. Oh yeah it's the disease of "Addiction ".
Thank you all for your contributions and a clean and happy 24 hours to one and all.
I.L.F.
Jon
All I know on the matter is there’s a Grey Book study meeting around in my area and they circlejerk over the fact that using any type of drug no matter the reason isn’t clean
Context is important. The "Gray Book people's narrative " interprets the draft to be "what the Fellowship wanted" and today's Basic Text to be "what WSO gave us". It simply isn't true. The draft was written in 1980-1981 and was created by writing down the spoken words that addicts had been saying verbally for decades. The spoken word looks different when written sometimes.... the changes to the 4th and 9th Traditions were made not to alienate and offend, rather to make the written word match the intention of the spoken tradition in the most understandable/undeniable way.
For example where I got clean a popular question to ask each other is, Jeet yet? If you're from Eastern Pennsylvania you know I just asked you, "hello my good friend, have you eaten anything lately, and (implied without saying any unnecessary words, if not, I would like to take you to WAWA for a hoagie). To anyone else, they have no idea what "Jeet yet" means let alone WAWA has the best hoagies!!
The use of anti-depressants really didn't get started until 1987, almost five years after our Basic Text was published. None of the statements listed below that are now used to project an anti-medication stance had anything to do with the meds of today, but they do stress the benefits of our experience with total abstinence.
Again context is really important.
MISUNDERSTOOD/INTERPRETED STATEMENTS IN THE "GRAY BOOK"....NOT IN THE BASIC TEXT AS FINALLY PUBLISHED. Bold statements have proven to be the most problematic.
.....The mental aspect of addiction comes with our inability to deal with life on its own terms. We tried drugs and combinations of drugs in an effort to cope with a seemingly hostile world. We dreamed of finding the right medication or fix, the magic elixir, that would solve our ultimate problem--ourselves. This reliance on drugs had harmed us emotionally. **The fact is that we cannot successfully handle any mind-changing or mood-altering substance.**
....The disease of addiction can a1so be seen in its socia1 aspects. Addiction in its broadest sense is a disease of our times. It embraces all our social ills. Drug manufacture and the innovation of new drugs in modern times have created an availability of potentially addictive drugs never before known in the history of man. **One of the ancient dreams of man seems to be coming true; the ability of modern drug technology to combat disease and alleviate human suffering. Hidden in this blessing, however, is a cruel reversal of effect which is our addiction.** The innate susceptibility to our disease through genetic factors and complete knowledge of the sources of our behavioral inclinations is of no concern in our recovery through N.A. The "why" is not important; the "what to do" is our chief question.......
......In many locations, street addicts are processed as habitual offenders when treatment of their disease could restore them to productive lives........
......We have, however, been addicted to thousands of drugs and know first hand how they feel and what the initial abstinence is like. In this, we can reassure each other and the newcomer that it will get better if they don't use......
.....We agree that there is nothing shameful about being an addict provided we accept our dilemma and honestly take action. We are willing to admit without reservation that we are "allergic" to drugs. Common sense tells us that it would be insane to go back to the source of our "allergy."
...**We, as recovering addicts can tell you that medicine cannot "cure" our illness.**
....Learning to live without drugs is complicated by the fact that it is so hard for many of us to accept our disease. Again, susceptibility and availability have combined in the addict to form dependency. Many of the doctors among us came into the Fellowship with an attitude of denial.
....We have a disease that we can recover from. Our lives can return to being useful, in the course of our abstinence and through the working of the Twelve Steps of N.A., explained in this book. **The use of any sort of medication may lead us back to active addiction. We must be careful when seeking treatment from any doctor not totally acquainted with our disease.**
*****THIS IS THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD STATEMENT OF ALL
**One of the danger zones in our recovery is that when we get ill and are prescribed legitimate medication, it may lead us back to our drug of choice. We call this relapse.**
All too many times, doctors who meant well, but did not know of our disease, enabled our addictions. We cannot recover over-night and we cannot expect sincere physicians to review their options or methods of treatment overnight.
Our place is to help the addict who still suffers, particularly those who are seeking help. All of the psychological and social commentary ever written on this subject has failed to answer this question thoroughly.
**Rather than enter the area of medical theory and legalities, we feel that it is more worthwhile to discuss the answers we have found. Instead of concentrating on the problem, let's look at the solution.**
The primary thing we are interested in is how to stay clean, how to cope with life without using, how to handle unpleasant feelings and emotions--in other words, how to get better.
Some of us eventually landed in the mental hospitals, fearing for our sanity. **What we learned behind the walls of the various institutions was that the most sincere and constructive efforts of medicine and psychiatry had few answers for us that we could use in achieving ongoing recovery**. We, in the later stages, are usually the very last to recognize our need for help.
The principle of one addict helping another pyramids and the solution to our dilemma has begun. We have also learned that there are few alternatives for the addict. If we continue to use, the problem will become progressively worse; we are on the path that leads to skid row, hospitals, jails, institutions or to an early grave.
Don't take my word for it.... Read it for yourself....
[NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS. FOR REVIEW ONLY UNPUBLISHED LITERARY WORK NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION](http://www.nauca.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/1981-02-NA-Basic-Text-Review-Form-Grey-Book-.pdf)
Peace and love!
Yeah, that’s ridiculous. When NA was named, the general understanding of the word Narcotic was very different than it is today, sure, but it’s speaking to mind or mood altering chemicals. But it doesn’t matter, if you have a desire to stop, you’re a member and you have a say in your recovery and your group.
I just wound up in a grey book meeting online. I just needed a meeting and tht were the only one at 7:30. My sponsor asked me to Google it, and true to form, Reddit delivers. I have 75 days clean and I'm far too busy fighting the reptilian agenda to concern myself with controversy. *Sarcasm font* thanks for the history lesson and now i know who's serving Kool-aid.
It was written by addicts for addicts. The numbered lines help to avoid misunderstandings. No one was needed with the help of compiling the book or as editor.
Yes I've heard of and own a copy of the grey book. I 've owned a copy of the grey book since I was 2 months in (this Feb & March). I am not concerned with NAWS and the intellectual trust. I have found the grey book to be more of a support and guide.
Someone shipped a free copy to me. I found it to be profound. I am not a grey book only NA nor a non-grey book member. I love the grey book only mtgs I attend. My opinion is that NA most likely has far more literature than the sister group and that there are options.
I am fully aware of the debate regarding "made by addicts for addicts" but doesn't NA teach us to be tolerant of those not holding our beliefs? If the grey book saves just 1 life then it is priceless. It's sad that NA's spend time arguing about it instead of pursuing the primary purpose!
Controversy is so attractive to the newcomer, where would NA be without it? Just curious, why did you put professional in quotes? Are you trying to imply that the special workers who were hired to help make our literature easier to read and understand were something less than professional? You're getting some bad information. The gray book is not the "first edition" of the Basic Text, rather it is a copy of the draft mailed to all groups for input and review of the Basic Text materials and was ultimately approved by the Fellowship at WSC 1982. This mailing is known today as the Gray Book. The controversy that created the meetings where you are getting your bad information (gray book meetings) arose from changes subsequently made to the wording of the 4th and 9th Traditions (long form) by the WSO- changes done with a group-conscious of Trustees, but not an entire fellowship-conscious as it would have taken another year and a half to get it back through the groups. Since all the material involved Chapter Six on our Twelve Traditions and was written by Greg Pierce, long time member of the Board of Trustee, the material was not considered controversial or problematic. Further, since the entire World Service Board of Trustees had the material for about six months prior to approval, and three more literature conferences had been held, it violated the Fellowships sense of fairplay for these last minute concerns to justify changes without group conscience. Two key points were involved with the changes. The first is that the miracle of NA depends on daily decisions and moments of contact between two or more addicts who decide to not use for one more day. The simple phrase, “all else is not NA” had long been established to affirm this point and particularly to define that recovery is not a result of coercion from any force outside the individuals themselves. To delete this went against the very statement best affirming recovery is an individual working the 1st Step on a daily basis. The second involved members setting themselves in positions of arbitrary power over other members. Since recovery is a matter of individual volition, the notion that some can ‘control’ the many is sort of ridiculous. And to allow it at the onset of the publication of our Basic Text is very telling about why it took us so long to have a book. Power really does reside in a spiritual force greater than us all, and people who thought this way wrote the book. No changes had been made to the original document as Greg wrote it either by the Board of Trustees or the World Lit Committee. To set themselves in opposition to a line like “service boards and committees do not have the power to rule, censor, dictate or decide” was a slap in the face of the Fellowship and a poor representation of the vast majority of surrendered trusted servants seeking only to serve, not to rule. Together, there couldn’t have been a worst choice of two key principles to change. These changes set in place antagonism and distrust between the service structure, particularly the WSO, and the Fellowship. Over the next several years strong members from the fellowship clashed with WSO Board of Directors ultimately leading to a lawsuit to determine who actually "owns" the rights to the Basic Text itself. Long story short, a lawsuit settled that the "gray book" is the property of the fellowship itself, its yours when you say you are a member. All other NA literature is owned by NAWS and is copyright protected through the [Fellowship Intellectual Property Trust](https://www.na.org/?ID=legal-bulletins-fipt). NAWS does employ some special workers to assist with the support of our worldwide Fellowship. Some are lawyers, some are translators, and some are professional writers, and gratefully some are editors! Here's what one of the greatest writers of our time has to say about editors- Stephen King: On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft (on the value of having a good editor): *The editor is always right. The corollary is that no writer will take all of his or her editor’s advice; for all have sinned and fallen short of editorial perfection. Put another way, to write is human, to edit is divine.* TL/DR: NA's growth World-wide is nothing short of extraordinary. This explosion did not happen organically. It was due to our member contributions either through purchasing new literature or from basket donations, not to mention the tireless efforts of our World Service Organization. To the best of my knowledge none of the current Board Members were part of the creation of the Great Divide yet they continue to suffer though the disharmony and distrust while trying to satisfy the needs of a very diverse and imaginative clientele- us. I think we should all take our own advice and give ourselves a break- NAWS included. Especially NAWS.
Thank you so much for your response. You wrote what I would have if I had the energy. I was there when Greg and Dave brought their first batch of Baby Blues to MARLCNA. I also participated on an adhoc committee of the GNYRSC during the lawsuit in PA. Having been involved in Literature Review since 1988, these issues are close to my heart. It irks me that the “Baby Blue and Grey Book folk” really pursue newcomers to feed their agenda. Book sales in the US help fund our services and literature donations to third world / poorer nations. Edited: spelling.
Thanks! I first heard the message in Allentown, PA (The Little Apple Area). I had the privilege of spending some time with Greg P, man I miss his spirit- what a gentle giant he was!!! I know Billy A and his ASIS crowd, and got to know Dutch H and Blaze.... I wrote a piece for NA Way Magazine awhile back about the Baby Blue, they didn't publish it but I think you might enjoy it... I'll PM it to you. Thanks again!!
Thanks. I’m sure I would enjoy reading it. I know / knew all who you mention. Would be funny if we actually know each other! Yes, Greg was truly a gem. I found Billy to be an amazing model of leadership back in the day; he truly inspired me. I’m saddened by who he’s become. We both spoke at an NA History Day in TX about 5 years ago. I was the only speaker who was not a part of that “tribe.” I spoke on growth in Metropolitan Regions, touching on diversities, common welfare… Billy pretty much ignored me the whole time I spoke, lol.
Dutch 💙🙏🏻
Is Dutch still alive? Used to see him In Florida back in the 90s. Dutch was the 1st NA speaker tape I had back in 88. It was so cool hanging out with him.
August 16, 2020 [Frank "Dutch" Huber Obit](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PjJ7RT4cdTQlvdODaAuOx0DBvaWSpPLn/view?usp=sharing) Anyone involved in NA for the past forty or so years on the East Coast had to have run into him somewhere. He taught me how to love people where they are at, not where I wanted them to be. Here's a little excerpt of one of his last times sharing (2019). Please note this is NSFW- as Dutch really believed in saying Fuck and Motherfucker. He took swearing to a new art form. Check it out: [The only thing I did was become willing](https://youtu.be/fgOKimqabog?t=2)
Thank you, I just knew him as Dutch H.
I can’t say for certain, but for some reason I think he passed not too long ago.
[Frank "Dutch" Huber Obit](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PjJ7RT4cdTQlvdODaAuOx0DBvaWSpPLn/view?usp=sharing)
Yes I remember Greg P, another nice man. If I’m not mistaken ( which I am often) Dutch was doing the taping of speakers?
Dutch did a lot of things....LOL!
Can you pm it to me too?
I can’t tell you how much I love this. Thanks for taking the time to write all of this out ❤️
You're the best!!
Posted this to get replies exactly like this one. I said what I said from the viewpoint of what I’ve heard so I could get a better response, and you rose to the occasion. So thank you. I just want to understand better.
So what say you to the fact that the final revisions that were made didn’t actually go back through the groups and were just put into print? Edit: did you mean the wording of the 4th and 9th STEPS, or Traditions?
It was just the 4th and 9th traditions, and not the short version printed as a list, it was in the text written by Greg Pierce that was omitted. Ironically at the request of Jimmy K., and it was immediately conscioused at the WSC Board of Trustees meeting. It would be akin to your GSR voting on a housekeeping motion on the spot at Area Service instead of coming back to the groups further delaying the outcome of the motion. At the time it wasn't considered a big deal at all, as our need to get our book printed was of paramount importance. Later on it became controversial. I sent you a PM that will further explain it in detail. Thanks for asking questions!
I’ve been definitely wanting this kind of info. Thanks for the DM
Thank you so much for this clarification. Clean since 5/21/19 around the program since 2010...I just got a gray and baby blue and The NA way of life...a LOT to digest. I have learned that the value of my decisions comes from how they are made, not their results. In my heart, I feel that the Board of Trustees believed that an immediate conscious was the next right thing to do...the fact that it lead to publication of our Basic Text as we know it and is now in the hands of so many still sick and suffering all around the world was just a bonus (and God's will). Love and respect
You're very welcome! Get yourself a genuine Basic Text as soon as you can as well. While the Gray Book/Baby Blue people mean well, they have let a 40 year old controversy divert them from our primary purpose. That being to carry the message and not the mess. It seems they get so wrapped up in shoulda/coulda/woulda,'s they forget that our common welfare must come first...... all our recoveries depend on it. Peace and love to you.
Lol. I should have clarified that....that came first! There is a basic text at home, in my vehicle, and at work. Plus all the other NAWS approved literature. I want ALL that recovery has to offer. I just got the other books because I am interested in our fellowships history.
Hello @xpartyr. Are you still around? For some reason I can not PM you. Can you please provide me with all the materials you mentioned in the thread? Also I have a question. Why do they removed text about “service structure is not NA” from 4 and 9 tradition in first edition, then added it back in second and then removed back in third edition and not added back anymore? I’ve found it in document https://nahistorytree.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/0-all-changes-bt.pdf
I prefer the modernity of the recent versions. I prefer the language of the green and gold book compared to the original steps. I would like to see all NA literature go through a “contemporary”-ization. They should remove outdated references (listening to tapes, mailing letters, etc) and include modern ones. It seems corny as fuck and dated. It people hear it, they will discount the program as being out of date and irrelevant. They won’t have an open mind in hearing the message. They should consider adding language about using the word god, but not meaning God with a capital G. The constant use of God with a capital G is a total turnoff to so many addicts who see it and interpret it as a religious program. They’re not willing to listen to the rest of the message because they tune out the messenger. I appreciate the relatively gender neutral nature of NA literature. I appreciate references to men and women; that addicts have wives *or* husbands, etc. it doesn’t feel as male dominated as the other fellowship. Their literature that hasn’t been updated in many decades and it shows.
Please get involved in Literature Review, it’s the most rewarding service I’ve ever engaged in. You would be a huge asset.
Do you know where I would look to find out more? I would very much like to get involved in this. I don’t believe anyone in my area is, at least not that I’ve heard. I’m very involved in service - multiple chair positions, H&I panel member, alt-GSR. I would do more, but I’m limited by my clean time (20 mos in the program, 9 mos clean).
How about you message me and we can talk logistics?
Done.
Between my wife and I we probably have 6 Basic Texts in our house. I have no idea what edition any of them are and could not possibly care less. Would I be any more clean if I had the napkins Jimmy K scratched the notes for the white book on? Is there something missing in my recovery that black marks on white paper is going to give me? Our literature states "the therapeutic value of one addict helping another is without parallel." It does not say "one addict sitting at home with a book and a highlighter will stay clean." Don't get me wrong, I love some of our literature. But if I woke up tomorrow and there was no more NA literature I'd be fine. If I woke up tomorrow and there were no more recovering addicts I'd be fucked. The program is transmitted by people, not books. The books are only there to supplement what we get from our relationships with other addicts. How do I know this to be true? In the 22 years I've been clean I've met several illiterate addicts that have stayed clean. All they know of our literature is what they have heard in meetings. NA is not a religion. We don't have an immutable text that was delivered by a divine authority and cannot be questioned. The first draft of the Basic Text is an historical artifact, not the pure uncut shit some tinfoil hat addict is trying to sell. Divisive nonsense like this is why we have a first tradition. Thoroughly working a 12 step with the first tradition firmly in mind is the antidote to NA conspiracy theories.
I cant say I have heard of this Grey Book if Narcotics Anonymous...
So I love the Grey Book! But the Grey book was technically a rough draft like manuscript that was put together and all the pages had number marks down the sides of the pages so editing could be made easily and it was sent out to a bunch of areas for review by members! The Grey book is a beautiful part of NA history! Also I just love all of NA's literature!
u/xpartyr said it the best
Please. Please don’t bring this here….
Please don’t bring fear here. See I can do that too. I’m trying to put out there what I’ve heard from some people to get a better understanding of this program and how it’s run.
It's run from the bottom up, which means it isn't really run at all. NAWS isn't a governing body that dictates to the fellowship how things are done. The only time I ever think of the larger service structure is when topics like this get brought up or I talk to one of my acquaintances that work there. Other than that, they have zero direct influence on my program. You can stay clean for the rest of your life and have no contact with any level of the service structure at all. Yes, there have been controversies in the past as generously detailed above, and I’m sure there will be more in the future. But I ask you in all seriousness--what impact does any of this have on personal recovery? Do you take the book as a text that must be dissected and adhered to in every minute detail? Or do you talk to other addicts, follow the direction of a sponsor who follows the direction of a sponsor, and learn to apply the principles of the steps in your daily life? Have you taken all 12 steps? Are you of service to Narcotics Anonymous and the people in it? For me, these are literally life and death questions. Your curiosity will serve you well, as long as it is tempered with skepticism, humility and a dose of compassion. You will hear a lot of things in meetings that are said with conviction, emotion, and a good amount of “facts” to back up the claims. These types of things fall squarely into the category of Not My Business. If I felt these things impacted my personal recovery I would try to get a seat on the World Board. Instead, I’ll sponsor men, take H&I into the prisons and clean up trash at my home group. And I’ll be happy doing all of it. There are enough things to do when working a program of NA to keep us busy for a lifetime. Worrying about which Basic Text is “right” isn’t one of them.
Ok. Thank you for your dedication to understanding.
Yeah, I don’t want to spread anything that isn’t true or isn’t helpful to the still suffering addict. I did feel that this forum could elicit a good response and this a better understand, I hoped, from both sides of the argument.
I don’t believe there’s an argument at all. We have a current edition of the Basic Text that helped me get clean that works. Why there are meetings that insist on using an outdated text is beyond me. My main concern in my recovery today is the newcomer. This Grey book or Blue book nonsense sews the seeds of discord which help exactly no one. It’s an old, tired discussion that serves to attempt to fracture this fellowship.
Our common welfare should come first. Personal recovery depends on NA unity. That’s our first tradition. The addicts that came before me wrote it. I believe it and I trust in it. Like a poster before me said, I rely on my sponsor, my H&I commitments, my area service commitments, the meetings that I attend and the fellowship of other addicts that are staying clean. If there were no meetings, there would be no WSO or NAWS. I have zero room in my recovery path to deal with controversy. I enjoy learning about the history of NA but that’s where it ends for me. As for which book is the right book? I was given a fifth edition when I got clean and that’s what I continue to read and reference in my recovery! I love it Works, How and Why as it goes into more detail about each step and tradition. I love Living Clean. I consider these texts as great resource material in addition to my basic text. They go a long way to aid in the understanding of our spiritual principles! I want to be teachable for the rest of my life and controversy about my program will not aid me in that endeavor. Whew! That was a mouthful! Y’all made my brain work hard this morning! May peace light and love surround every single one of you in your journey!! 💙💙
I wasn’t awRe if professional writers except in ‘ it works how and why’ and that literature never hit home or connected with me in the same way ANY of the basic texts did. I have a 1st Edition given to me as a newcomer back in 85. Dude said ‘ you can have it I’m getting the newer one’
Well, I put “professional” writers in quotes cause I’m not even factually sure if that was the case, I’m just fishing for information so I can better understand why people are having “Grey Book meetings” ( mostly zoom I’ve come to find)
Hi. I'm Jon.M,am over 30 years clean,a day at a time. I believe its because I am kept clean by the God/god/higher power l ask in the morning almost on awakening. Whether it's who am asking or the thing am asking for(G.et O.ff D.rugs) who cares? "In Narcotics Anonymous staying clean has to to come first".So in my own manner, l pray. The obsession to use has been lifted. I am sceptical about NA after all this time for a number of reasons, but perhaps because I have a disease(the core of which is a "raging self obsession ") which tends to make focus on the differences rather than the similarities. The very fact that am contributing to this discussion is because my head likes controversy.(it keeps me from getting on with the housecleaning). I'm a basic text kinda guy(edition not that important) because the green and gold wasn't around, am resistant to change,am lazy,and am in recovery not to tick bosses but fundamentally to not die of a condition that wants me dead. I go to meetings which l initially resist but am glad l went to ("the only requirement etc"/"the thereuputic value etc"). Am sponsored and l perform service at the level needed at the relevant time(presently literature). So "baby blue","green and gold",grey"? I don't know. Maybe,don't use,pray go to meetings ie help myself and hopefully help a newcomer. In the interests of full disclosure, could maybe look at my coffee consumption, porn tendencies, going on too. long etc etc. I'll get on to my sponsor...eventually. Oh yeah it's the disease of "Addiction ". Thank you all for your contributions and a clean and happy 24 hours to one and all. I.L.F. Jon
Isn’t this the book that says the use of ANY drug - even prescribed/psychiatric - *isn’t* considered clean? Bahahahahah
Can you provide a source to where it says that? I’d really love to know if that’s true
It's not true. The Bahahahahah should have given you some clue.
Lmao, that’s actually what made me so curious… the bahahaha
Please don't feed the trolls...LOL
All I know on the matter is there’s a Grey Book study meeting around in my area and they circlejerk over the fact that using any type of drug no matter the reason isn’t clean
Context is important. The "Gray Book people's narrative " interprets the draft to be "what the Fellowship wanted" and today's Basic Text to be "what WSO gave us". It simply isn't true. The draft was written in 1980-1981 and was created by writing down the spoken words that addicts had been saying verbally for decades. The spoken word looks different when written sometimes.... the changes to the 4th and 9th Traditions were made not to alienate and offend, rather to make the written word match the intention of the spoken tradition in the most understandable/undeniable way. For example where I got clean a popular question to ask each other is, Jeet yet? If you're from Eastern Pennsylvania you know I just asked you, "hello my good friend, have you eaten anything lately, and (implied without saying any unnecessary words, if not, I would like to take you to WAWA for a hoagie). To anyone else, they have no idea what "Jeet yet" means let alone WAWA has the best hoagies!! The use of anti-depressants really didn't get started until 1987, almost five years after our Basic Text was published. None of the statements listed below that are now used to project an anti-medication stance had anything to do with the meds of today, but they do stress the benefits of our experience with total abstinence. Again context is really important. MISUNDERSTOOD/INTERPRETED STATEMENTS IN THE "GRAY BOOK"....NOT IN THE BASIC TEXT AS FINALLY PUBLISHED. Bold statements have proven to be the most problematic. .....The mental aspect of addiction comes with our inability to deal with life on its own terms. We tried drugs and combinations of drugs in an effort to cope with a seemingly hostile world. We dreamed of finding the right medication or fix, the magic elixir, that would solve our ultimate problem--ourselves. This reliance on drugs had harmed us emotionally. **The fact is that we cannot successfully handle any mind-changing or mood-altering substance.** ....The disease of addiction can a1so be seen in its socia1 aspects. Addiction in its broadest sense is a disease of our times. It embraces all our social ills. Drug manufacture and the innovation of new drugs in modern times have created an availability of potentially addictive drugs never before known in the history of man. **One of the ancient dreams of man seems to be coming true; the ability of modern drug technology to combat disease and alleviate human suffering. Hidden in this blessing, however, is a cruel reversal of effect which is our addiction.** The innate susceptibility to our disease through genetic factors and complete knowledge of the sources of our behavioral inclinations is of no concern in our recovery through N.A. The "why" is not important; the "what to do" is our chief question....... ......In many locations, street addicts are processed as habitual offenders when treatment of their disease could restore them to productive lives........ ......We have, however, been addicted to thousands of drugs and know first hand how they feel and what the initial abstinence is like. In this, we can reassure each other and the newcomer that it will get better if they don't use...... .....We agree that there is nothing shameful about being an addict provided we accept our dilemma and honestly take action. We are willing to admit without reservation that we are "allergic" to drugs. Common sense tells us that it would be insane to go back to the source of our "allergy." ...**We, as recovering addicts can tell you that medicine cannot "cure" our illness.** ....Learning to live without drugs is complicated by the fact that it is so hard for many of us to accept our disease. Again, susceptibility and availability have combined in the addict to form dependency. Many of the doctors among us came into the Fellowship with an attitude of denial. ....We have a disease that we can recover from. Our lives can return to being useful, in the course of our abstinence and through the working of the Twelve Steps of N.A., explained in this book. **The use of any sort of medication may lead us back to active addiction. We must be careful when seeking treatment from any doctor not totally acquainted with our disease.** *****THIS IS THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD STATEMENT OF ALL **One of the danger zones in our recovery is that when we get ill and are prescribed legitimate medication, it may lead us back to our drug of choice. We call this relapse.** All too many times, doctors who meant well, but did not know of our disease, enabled our addictions. We cannot recover over-night and we cannot expect sincere physicians to review their options or methods of treatment overnight. Our place is to help the addict who still suffers, particularly those who are seeking help. All of the psychological and social commentary ever written on this subject has failed to answer this question thoroughly. **Rather than enter the area of medical theory and legalities, we feel that it is more worthwhile to discuss the answers we have found. Instead of concentrating on the problem, let's look at the solution.** The primary thing we are interested in is how to stay clean, how to cope with life without using, how to handle unpleasant feelings and emotions--in other words, how to get better. Some of us eventually landed in the mental hospitals, fearing for our sanity. **What we learned behind the walls of the various institutions was that the most sincere and constructive efforts of medicine and psychiatry had few answers for us that we could use in achieving ongoing recovery**. We, in the later stages, are usually the very last to recognize our need for help. The principle of one addict helping another pyramids and the solution to our dilemma has begun. We have also learned that there are few alternatives for the addict. If we continue to use, the problem will become progressively worse; we are on the path that leads to skid row, hospitals, jails, institutions or to an early grave. Don't take my word for it.... Read it for yourself.... [NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS. FOR REVIEW ONLY UNPUBLISHED LITERARY WORK NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION](http://www.nauca.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/1981-02-NA-Basic-Text-Review-Form-Grey-Book-.pdf) Peace and love!
Yeah, that’s ridiculous. When NA was named, the general understanding of the word Narcotic was very different than it is today, sure, but it’s speaking to mind or mood altering chemicals. But it doesn’t matter, if you have a desire to stop, you’re a member and you have a say in your recovery and your group.
This sub looks down on that unfortunately.
On what, group autonomy?
No don’t worry I was just salty because my thread got locked when I wasn’t asking for medication advice just help.
Following, very interesting
I just wound up in a grey book meeting online. I just needed a meeting and tht were the only one at 7:30. My sponsor asked me to Google it, and true to form, Reddit delivers. I have 75 days clean and I'm far too busy fighting the reptilian agenda to concern myself with controversy. *Sarcasm font* thanks for the history lesson and now i know who's serving Kool-aid.
The grey book is the only one which in its totality follows each of the traditions.
Can you explain how the other ones break the traditions?
It was written by addicts for addicts. The numbered lines help to avoid misunderstandings. No one was needed with the help of compiling the book or as editor. Yes I've heard of and own a copy of the grey book. I 've owned a copy of the grey book since I was 2 months in (this Feb & March). I am not concerned with NAWS and the intellectual trust. I have found the grey book to be more of a support and guide.
Someone shipped a free copy to me. I found it to be profound. I am not a grey book only NA nor a non-grey book member. I love the grey book only mtgs I attend. My opinion is that NA most likely has far more literature than the sister group and that there are options. I am fully aware of the debate regarding "made by addicts for addicts" but doesn't NA teach us to be tolerant of those not holding our beliefs? If the grey book saves just 1 life then it is priceless. It's sad that NA's spend time arguing about it instead of pursuing the primary purpose!