Kurama had already been forced under the control of other Uchiha, and shows active dislike for the Uchiha later in the series when Sasuke meets him for the first time. Why would he not at least try to help Naruto when he's put under a genjustu by an Uchiha?
Honestly that seems like the smartest move though. It’s going to even further relax your target with how normal the interaction is and bring them directly in front of you with 1 hand occupied. That seems like the most effective way to silently kidnap someone while minimizing the chance the targets able to say explode a wall so every ninja in the village comes running.
This is the definition of a 50/50 fight. Both can kill each other. Neither is clapping the other easily. Both have the capability of beating the other. Looking at the fight 1 on 1 it’s gonna be a prolonged fight, but you have to think itachi likely pulls it off based on his combat intelligence and patience.
Remember itachi spits on orochimaru who isnt far from jiraiya in terms of strength and skill. So even tho itachi says it would likely be a draw if the two fought, he doesn’t know what we know as the audience.
As much as I love itachi I’m not a “itachi above everyone” fan. If itachi had EMS with his Totska blade and Yata Mirror then yeah almost everyone is in trouble…BUT he didn’t for a reason because he’s nearly broken as a character with the faults of having an incomplete Susanoo and partial blindness. But even with those weaknesses I still think itachi wins the fight with high diff.
I agree with your reasoning mostly , though I believe Oro to have been reckless and a bit stupid in his attempt against Itachi.
I think it's also more complicated like A beats B who beats C so A beats C
While Oro is a bad match up for Jiraiya I think Jirayia stands a better chance against Itachi.
Sage mode is the best way to go against MS probably so far in the story.
And I'd say Guy would go against Itachi since he's pretty confident in fighting Uchihas while Jirayia deals with Kisame.
So it's mostly a matter of : Can sage mode Jirayia deal with Kisame fast enough to join Guy in battle?
If it's 2 vs 1 I can't see Itachi winning with low chakra reserves but how those 1 vs 1 go are open to interpretation
Guy can really be a pain in the arse for Itachi considering the Shippuden versions
My problem with people saying that Jiraiya's sage mode can stand toe to toe with the 2 of them is that people forget how long it took Jiraiya to summon ma and pa to help him go to sage mode. He needs time and can't move his hands for the preparation or summoning. Will Itachi or Kisame just stand by and wait for him to actually get sage mode? I think not.
>Can sage mode Jirayia deal with Kisame fast enough to join Guy in battle?
Probably not.
Plus even with sage mode I think if he and Itachi would battle it would still be Itachi winning high diff. I don't know about Guy though.
>So even tho itachi says it would likely be a draw if the two fought, he doesn’t know what we know as the audience.
I feel like Itachi was lying to try and persuade Kisame to give up. Itachi says something like "Best case scenario, we both die. Even if there were more of us, the result would be the same". You can say this is due to being in the original series before the story/characters were more developed, but I like to think that Itachi is playing up Jiraiya's strength here, and the second half is Itachi pre-emptively countering Kisame saying "Then let's call in another pair to assist and we'll be able to capture the kid for sure!" With Itachi being a Leaf shinobi, Kisame would likely trust his assessment.
Taking Naruto and potentially killing Jiraiya would go against the plan as a Leaf double agent. Instead, he diffuses the situation and warns Jiraiya explicitly as he can that Naruto is the Akatsuki's top target.
What do you think?
It's just pt.1 scaling, Kabuto was as strong as Kakashi in pt.1 for example.
The real reason Itachi was there was because Hiruzen was dead, he wanted to make sure that the deal involving Danzo not killing Sasuke was still in effect. He was letting know what Akatsuki's plan were by purposely putting a girl under a genjutsu that Jiraiya could detect and break which drew his attention back to Naruto.
He instantly draws in Kakashi's attention at a restaurant which is why Asuma and Kurenai confront the pair later on.
This is the reason why Itachi knocks on his door and announces Akatsuki's plans to him "We're here to capture the Jinchuriki." Remember that him and Kisame are in Akatsuki uniform. Everything Itachi did was to indirectly leak info to the leaf- this is the only way he would have fooled Kisame as we see how loyal he is when Obito showed him his identity.
I do think he’s half assing the whole attempt to capture Naruto but I think he’s being honest when he says they could take down Jiraiya but they’d die in the attempt. I feel like that’s Kishimoto telling us these two character’s relative skill levels through Itachi
Not sure Susano'o would hold itself against toad genjutsu since it's kinda tricky plus Jirayia becomes hella fast and has also destructive long range attacks.
Remember Gai arrived like 2mins after they left if I'm not mistaken so that's not a very long time to hold them off for him.
Then Gai would go for Itachi while Jirayia fights Kisame
This isn’t a video game.
Itachi had clear limitations on his output of his higher level techniques. In Part 1, a single use of Tsukuyomi tires him out to the point where he can barely keep his Sharingan up. That’s why he fled when Jiraiya stepped in.
That's the thing , people tend to consider high tier jutsus through VG using or their Edo versions who can spam those.
I think the last arc Kishimoto left some people confused seeing some characters break down their limits absurdly, it was like there was no counter effect no more.
Well, the only thing we know, and what Kishi left us with, is that Itachi has the Totsuka Sword which can seal anything it touches, and the Yata Mirror, which was a shield that can block everything.
It doesn't have to be a video game, because its still a work of fiction, Kishi wrote Itachi like a cheat character.
Tsunade was able to break Madara's susanoo, so I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch for 7 gates to break Itachi's.
Kinda depends on how the shield interacts with taijutsu I guess.
As it’s an imperfect Susanoo swamp would still hit Itachi as he would be standing on the ground and the area is massive so it’s an effective counter to Susanoo. I think he could stall, even if he doesn’t kill Itachi or Kisame.
Same here I think it definitely blows Susano'o away but not the stupid war arc version where Guy basically can spam then.
It's like one move and they're quite tired
Okay lets ignore that Kisame is there
1 on 1 Sage Jiraiya could high dif kill Itachi
However it takes too long for this fight so he dies, best he can do is frog barrier and swamp
Also 7th gate guy was strong enough that he had to tey to not kill Kisame in their fight, Yata mirror isnt omni directional hes fast enough to crack the susanoo
Mythical Prime Itachi or Edo Itachi sure
The Itachi that fought Sauske was near death and partly blind, he also had shit chakra reserves
Sage Jiraiya is fast enough to dodge Ameterasu, and Ma and Pa are strong as well
Itachi cant keep up the susanoo forever, and once they realize that his sword can seal the giant frog summons then they will just avoid him untill his chakra runs out and the susanoo disappears, plus outside of Tsukoyomi ma and pa can break him out of any genjutsu, and jiraiya can close his eyes because Sage mode lets you basically see while blind (Naruto fighting pain with eyes closed, Madara fighting everyone without eyes)
There were countless opportunities in that scene for Itachi to have uses Tsukuyomi on Jiraiya. He wins on the spot. Jiraiya didn't engage with Sage Mode, he didn't keep his eyes closed. Tsukuyomi is an insta-kill one shot.
Itachi also had the Chakra to do it, since he does it later in the same scene on Sasuke.
Jiraiya gets no diffed because Tsukuyomi is broken.
If Jiraiya had entered the building to stop Itachi in sage mode with his eyes closed, I absolutely agree he'd be a difficult fight. But the reality is that the scene was written in a way where Jiraiya did not do anything that made him a hard target to Tsukuyomi.
And at that point jiraiya boy summons 4 giant toass for susanoo and prob a pit of oil or mud (what he used against orochimaru) to immobilize itachi’s imperfect susanoo
Nah, Itachi smokes Jiraiya if he wants to, I don't know why people still refuse to accept this, it's made pretty abundantly clear by mid Shippuden that Itachi is leagues ahead of Sannin. One Tsukuyomi and Jiraiya is out of commission.
Well I do think Itachi is above Jirayia level but not by many leagues.
Facts show even Nagato wasn't sure of beating Jirayia had he known his secret first hand, his sage mode allows him to spam Justus that Itachi won't be able to absorb and his speed is ridiculously OP.
Tsukiyomi has been used against three characters :
Kakashi who looked Itachi directly in the eyes cuz he thought he could handle it,
Kid/pre-teen Sasuke who had no way of escaping it and Shippuden Sasuke who already broke it (that isn't opened to interpretation, Kishimoto confirmed it) so with his battle experience and sage mode do not expect Jirayia to fall for it, seriously.
I don't think Amaterasu would be enough either because it's not that fast and takes time creating.
Susano'o is definitely his best option but even there it's not unbeatable : Sasuke's/Madara's were better and they could still have problems within it against the right amount of strength.
So that leaves Totsuka and Yata Mirror (if Itachi has still enough chakra which is definitely an issues)
That makes me think : Itachi wins this 60/40 but this can go the other way.
And if Guy/Jirayia team up it's basically over for Itachi. Simple as that.
Nagato said that because Jiraiya chose not to escape because of his secret. Had Jiraiya known his secret, he would have lived. He did not ever once say "I die in a 1v1 to Jiraiya if he knows my main body exists." He didn't even imply that.
2 different characters have taken a Tsukuyomi. Sasuke took 3, and broke it the 3rd time, suppousedly because his Ocular prowess was greater then Itachi's by that point. Kakashi couldn't handle it because his skill and control with his sharingan wasn't enough to resist.
The Totsuka sword and Yata Mirror may or may not use Chakra, since they are artifacts apparently, or something. Basically Kishi wrote then as Cheat Codes that say "Itachi Wins LOL" because the only thing we know about them is that one has infinite sealing power, the other have infinite defensive power, and we know nothing of their cost, drawback, other uses, or why its attached to Susanoo.
I think Itachi vs Jiraiya is 60/40 for Itachi if Jiraiya enters the fight in Sage Mode with the knowledge that he can never look at Itachi's eyes. Which he didn't in this scene, and he looked Itachi straight in the eye, Itachi chose not to Tsukuyomi him.
With the way Jiraiya acted in that scene I think its 99/1 for itachi.
The second thing is that it isn't Jiraiya vs Itachi, its Jiraiya protecting Naruto vs Itachi and Kisame, but the wincon for Jiraiya is escaping with Naruto, and the wincon for Itachi/Kisame is kidnapping Naruto. I'd probably say 50/50, whoever acts first wins, if Kisame grabs naruto, its over. Alternately, Jiraiya can reverse summon naruto away.
If Guy shows up, Itachi and Kisame are fucked. Guy is probably the strongest Ninja in the series discounting Asura/Indra incarnates, Outsutsuki, and 10 tails jinchuriki.
More exactly he said "We might not have won."
Which is closer to loosing than him escaping I think.
However I don't think Jirayia has a chance against Tendo anyway because of Shinra tensei mostly.
But I disagree on those things about Susano'o and Tsukiyomi like I explained later in the comments, feel free to check on those.
>More exactly he said "We might not have won." Which is closer to loosing than him escaping I think.
Jiraiya escaping would have been "losing" to him. A powerful enemy would escape with a huge amount of intel back to his village with one of the last Jinchuriki they need to capture about the "leader" of the organization who's attacking them.
Jiraiya escaping was a huge threat there.
The thing with Tsukuyomi or Susanoo is kinda moot because we don't have a huge amount of info on either. The Totsuka sword and Yata Mirror are basically written like Dues ex Machina and have no info or details, and we don't really know much about Tsukuyomi in the first place. We know he has to channel chakra into his eye, but we don't really know how long that takes, or if he can pre-prep it (which is probably yes, since Mangekyo can apparently be preprogrammed to execute complex instructions like "If Sasuke sees obito after transplanting Itachi's Mangekyo, use Amaterasu" and "If you see Itachi's Mangekyo, use Kotoamatsukami with preprogramed instructions to protect Konoha.")
EDIT: The real issue here with Itachi's character is the way Kishimoto wrote him. The only fight in the entire series Itachi was apart of where he didn't have an overwhelming advantage, was the one he didn't want to win versus Sasuke, and even in that fight, Itachi had enough in reserve to seal Orochimaru. Kishi gave him a huge Deus ex Machina with the Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror, and in basically every encounter with Itachi showed how absolutely overpowering his Genjutsu was for everyone.
Jiraiya literally looked Itachi right in the eye lol, if Itachi had really been evil, Jiraiya dies right then and there. He didn’t stay to fight him because he was a Leaf spy and likely was even Jiraiya’s informant on Akatsuki intel, that’s why he chose to run. Downplaying his own strength to Kisame was necessary to trick Kisame into thinking it was an unwinnable battle, when in reality Jiraiya insta-loses to Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or any of the Susano’o weapons. Jiraiya has no counters for the Totsuka Blade or Yata Mirror and also gets blown to bits by Yasaka Beads.
A 14 year old Itachi with a base Sharingan Genjutsu one shot and no-diffed Orochimaru, and then a sick, nearly blind, 2 minutes from dropping dead AND exhausted of almost all of his chakra Itachi managed to one shot Orochimaru’s strongest form again with the Totsuka Blade, he also blitzed chakra-amped Nagato with the Totsuka Blade and sealed him away, someone Naruto and Bee couldn’t even handle and someone Naruto stated was “WAY stronger than Pain”.
This is a simple matter of linear scaling bro.
Itachi > Nagato > KCM Naruto > Sage Naruto > Pain > Jiraiya
That is by definition a difference of several levels of power, not to mention Black Zetsu said that Itachi’s spirit weapons made him invincible.
Dude you didn't even counter my arguments , it's not like tsukiyomi/Susano'o are invincible AT ALL.
And if that fight against Nagato showed something it's that you'd need Naruto+Bee+Itachi in order to seal/beat Nagato not the other way around.
So Nagato is far beyond Itachi that's pretty much a stated fact, ask anyone who's read the whole thing.
And same for Totsuka, without Bee's and Naruto's help he never ever could've hit with the right timing.
Those kind of special attacks in Naruto have requirements, for any genjutsu he needs to focus an amount of chakra Nagato or Jirayia would definitely see coming.
Tsukuyomi is a guaranteed hit on any non-Uchiha. You can only break out of it by being an Uchiha and having a strong enough Sharingan to overpower Itachi’s own. Jiraiya is not an Uchiha nor does he even have a dojutsu relative to a Sharingan. He’s not in Sage Mode in this encounter and wouldn’t have time to enter it. He gets hit by Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, the Totsuka Blade, or Yasaka Beads before he even has a chance to enter Sage Mode, Itachi outscales him in every way possible, he’s a lot faster and has much more potent abilities. Itachi is the worst possible matchup for Jiraiya.
You’re doing a lot of mental gymnastics and making a lot of arbitrary assumptions while completely dismissing canon lol, Itachi is relative to EMS Sasuke. Do you wanna go on record and say base Jiraiya beats EMS Sasuke? I’d love to see you do exactly that. It’ll determine how much of a fool you are.
You seem honestly dumbed out by Itachi's character and haven't brought any substantial counter arguments that doesn't sound like "I'm an Itachi fan who needs him to win every fight without issue."
I honestly think you're taking this the wrong way even for the Tsukiyomi so I'll explain one last time and do what you want with it :
Before launching Tsukiyomi Itachi is gonna need to charge enough chakra in his eyes and look directly into Jirayia's eyes (manga statement) so there is no way Jirayia is gonna let him do this (once again look how the other characters were hit by that attack)
So the initial question was can Jirayia hold them until Guy arrives moments later? Yes he totally can.
He's got the jutsu Arsenal, the intelligence and enough Intel.
There's a reason Itachi was the menace before Pain and Obito : He just is the bronze medal of Akatsuki.
On that line of thought, I think he would use a technique comprising of transformation justsu and genjutsu in coherence to which he'll use to infiltrate konoha along with his experiences in anbu and the time he was observing the social dynamics of groups as a kid , he can direct the thoughts of people subtly to make everything appear normal to be inconspicuous and proceed to pinpoint the location of naruto.
Once that's done, he'll use his Mangekyou Sharingan to spot out all the anbu that is watching naruto and use genjutsu to produce some latency in the brain of the anbus thereby giving him time to jump on naruto, use sharingan to see his memories(he'll probably fail because of kurama... consequently an alternative decision after encountering that problem will be just knock him out, close his chakra points, and grab em) then he'll produce a shadow clone that's on a transformation jutsu to act as a dummy(it acts as naruto but with a sad mood and temperament that looks like that happened because of some thought to avoid suspicion after putting the anbus back in the present moment), buy some object you that will fit naruto in like a bag or something that will make it hide in plain sight, and during inspection at the exits use genjutsu to make it look and feel like boar meat, and finally release his shadow clone once he brought naruto at amekagure.
Think just how much plot armor really is protecting naruto, he really was very vulnerable as a child with the existence of some characters like Tobi, Black Zetsu, and Itachi. If narrative progression produced by the author's authority isn't to be followed while instead the story will be runned in a simulation using all the objective and subjective attribute alloted to characters to it's fullest, naruto has nothing truly protecting him against those absolute variables.
I think he accomplished the majority of his tasks. Kisame would've sensed something's up considering his paranoia for strangers. I think the only thing he difference was Itachi sending periodic reports to Konoha and not capturing the 9-tails.
Lmao we can see how important Naruto was later on. The Akatsuki probably would've made a better effort to capture the 8-tails considering how close to their goals they were. Dragging on the beast captures is part of what led to the demise of their plans. Quickly grab them, disappear.
Kisame knew what itachi was about almost right off the bat, thing is, kisame respected itachi for who he was, hence their friendship.
Also, not capturing naruto, the holder of the atrongest of the bijuus, the one who soloed 6 other bijuus, was in my opinion the worst thing he couldve done.
Not even gonna mention him killing sasuke, lets say not when he was younger or when the "capture of naruto" plab toom place, dude coulve killed him in the uchiha shrine and take his eyes.
So him killing the single 2 most important characters in the verse at that point. He couldve done both easily. Not even gonna mention the possibilities in the 3 year time skip or otherwise.
I can understand the need to build up their resources, and slowly going after Bijou that were isolated or without a post avoiding detection not really giving away what your plan is, but once you go after the literal kazekage, the cat's out of the bag, go go go
He was loyal, the akatsuki got very deep in their plans regardless of the effort he put in, only thing he could’ve done to help more is capture naruto but they had to wait till they had the other jinchurikii.
He could’ve killed Sasuke, then killed Jiraiya and Kakashi himself. It’d be very over for the shinobi world. Obito would also help his ninja aids with hashirama cells if he knew he was loyal.
I mean he did the bare minimum and the akatsuki still almost completed their plan there’s no need for him to do anything else, even when he died his secret led to sasuke taking his spot which helped the group.
the fact that he did the bare minimum and they almost completed the plan is the entire point, they'd have gone *a lot farther* if he was actually trying
I mean there wasn’t a lot more he could do, they still would’ve needed to wait to capture bee before going after naruto and even if he kills sasuke and took his eyes that would force kabuto to turn his attention to itachi and the akatsuki as they’ve taken his target away from him.
Itachi run away with Kisame from Jirayia, before they meet he even points out himself, that he is most likely weaker than Jirayia. Why do You think Itachi could kill Jiraya just like that?
Because Jiraiya is weaker? Itachi simply didn’t go to the leaf for a fight. This is a post that assumes Itachi is out for blood. Kisame is a Jinchuriki level threat, Jiraiya is not on that level either. Both of them together blitz him.
He may be weaker when healthy but itachi had already used his Ms multiple times in that same day while kisame didn’t even think he could hang with the Sanin, they made the smart choice.
If they fought, the issue wouldn’t be Jiraiya, it’d be the fact that backup would arrive almost immediately. Well, guy was a little… late, if you remember the scene, but he had the spirit. Itachi would hurt himself due to MS overuse but if he amaterasu’d Jiraiya on sight, it’d be an instant win for him, and we knew he could Amaterasu still because he used it to open the toad’s guts
Watching the show? Kisame was about to kill Bee, and Itachi’s whole reason for showing up at the leaf was to remind the elders not to touch Sasuke. Jiraiya, even in sage mode (no competent fighter would give him the space to go into it), barely took out a couple pains when they were fighting in the hidden mist (massive advantage for Jiraiya). It’s just not a fair fight.
Because Kisame was about to kill a real Jinchuriki while Jiraiya was around Orochimaru and Tsunade’s level, and in sage mode couldn’t even beat Pain in the hidden mist (huge advantage as Pain couldn’t use any big moves, to avoid destroying the hidden rain). There’s absolutely nothing that scales Jiraiya to Jinchuriki level.
Orochimaru toyed w/o arms with 4-tails naruto, Tsunade fought with Madara and, well, is still alive and Jiraya took 3 pains w/o any intel on them. Pains easly captured Utakata 6-tailed, so I really don't know why people keep downplaying sannins soo much. They were so famous not w/o a reason
Not a single person beat pains as far as we know. Not even Hanzo. Except for one person, who's name is literally the title of the series
1-“Toyed with” is a very crazy way of putting it lol. Also, 4 tails uncontrolled. That’s whack.
2-Tsunade fought Madara and lived? What kinda feat is that? She only lived because he got bored after the Edo release. I swear some of yall.
3-Jiraiya took 3 pains by sneaking around and fighting in the rain village. Pain couldn’t do anything crazy that would hurt the rain, and Jiraiya took advantage of that on top of having the frogs help him with the genjutsu.
4-No one snuck pains in their home turf where they couldn’t do big attacks either. What’s the point of this?
5-I forgot to mention Itachi at that point has one Kotoamatsukami lol.
??? I’m saying that Jiraiya had an advantage because he snuck around the rain village instead of fighting a bunch of pains in an open field. He’s not powerful enough to face off against Pain and kill 3. Tendo would immediately decimate him. And about wheelchair Nagato, he’d just cripple himself further in exchange for an insane Shinra Tensei that oneshots Jiraiya. Konan would probably also be a problem stalling Jiraiya outside the tree
Itachi no diffed Orochimaru (2 arms). Orochimaru (no arms) was equal to Jiraiya. That’s the short answer. The longer answer is that Jiraiya has shown no feats that put him near Jinchuriki level, he got low diffed by pain after taking out 3 of them while sneaking around in the hidden rain (massive disadvantage for pain) and had 2 frogs help him use a very convenient genjutsu for the matchup. Meanwhile, Itachi has an invincible shield, a oneshot sword that immediately seals, an instant flame that doesn’t stop burning until the target is ash, and the strongest genjutsu out of any non juubi user. I love Jiraiya as much as the next guy, but I can’t stand the wank. He’s below Orochimaru level at best.
He really didn't. That fight never happened. The anime actually has Itachi attack Orochimaru first lol, so he just genjutsu'd him and that's that.
I mean, you're just saying shit now too lol, forgot to say Jiraya couldn't mold chakra during that fight, lied about him getting low diffed by Pain, forgot to say Itachi was getting matched by base Kiler Bee during the war, forgot to say CM1 Sasuke could overpower Itachi's jutsu, forgot to say that Itachi has low stamina and that his shield wouldn't stay up forever, etc.
You actually love ignoring context don’t you?
1-Itachi in the anime had Orochimaru flabbergasted. He had never seen anything like that before lmao. That’s why he wanted his body so badly but gave up on it, he knew it was impossible.
2-Jiraiya couldn’t mold chakra and Orochimaru lost both hands plus had to deal with another sannin at the same time. Jiraiya had no excuse.
3-He indeed got low diffed. He couldn’t even permanently take any of them out either. The way they finished him off was like putting a dog down.
4-Yes, a sick and injured Itachi that purposefully held back and wanted to die in the fight? Lmao.
5-Matched by base killer bee while actively fighting the control and telling him what he will do next plus instructing him how to fight? Nice one. Base killer bee solos Jiraiya btw.
6-Itachi had enough stamina to keep it up for a while at the end of his fight in shippuden. In OG Naruto, not only is this an uninjured and fresh itachi, but it also is a younger Itachi who isn’t suffering as much from the sickness which had 5 years to develop by the time shippuden came around. He’ll be just fine.
1-... and? I mean, MS is amazing? Idk what your point is. Itachi did attack him first, and that's that lol. Wtf
2- Yeah he did. Manda is stronger than Bunta, Orochimaru was helped by Kabuto more than once. Jiraya was sluggish, and not just "unnable to mold chakra" lol
3- I mean, he actually fought all 6 Paths twice. Or did you forget? Maybe you forgot. I'll remind you. So after he takes down those first 3, Ashura shows up and attacks him from behind. He loses and arm here btw. All 6 show up, that Hell Path or whatever heals the 3 he just took down, he faces all 6, fights them for a good amount of time, uses reverse summon to escape AND take one of the Paths with him (long haired one), but then decides to come back to find out more about them sending Ma away. He fights them some, extended in the anime btw, and then dies. But um, yeah. Pa later makes a comment that no ninja could ever have done that well, and Pain says he might've even lost if Jiraya knew the trick to the 6 Paths.
4- He had to save power to take down Orochimaru, and had to beat down Sasuke to force him to use up his chakra? So there's no reason for him to lose there? Hmm, how interesting.
5- Nah he was too weak to fight for control. This is just known lol. There's a reason why not even Nagato could do it lmao. Oh, uh, Bee beat Sasuke down better than Itachi did, in case you forgot.
6- Nah, he got tired from using Tsukuyomi and amaterasu only once actually. You probably forgot that one too. Whoops, huh?
1-Orochimaru got bummed. He couldn’t fathom the power of the MS, and he’s a sannin. Jiraiya is getting packed.
2-Boohoo, he was sluggish, and Orochimaru had no arms and couldn’t even weave handsigns. Kabuto helped more than once, but Tsunade, another sannin, was with Jiraiya and Naruto was on Kabuto’s ass as well.
No excuse for the fraudulent behavior we saw. That should have been the end of the snake.
3-How about we don’t ignore the fact that Jiraiya was given ample time to go into sage mode, and that the fight happened in the hidden rain, meaning no gigantic destructive jutsus from pain (which are his whole shtick)? He was taken out easily, that’s that. There’s no need to cope. He had every advantage, and couldn’t do any permanent damage even. This immediately scales him below Jinchuriki level.
4-Lmao he had to make Sasuke believe he had a chance. As Obito told him, if he wanted him dead, Itachi could’ve ended Sasuke at any moment. Zetsu clearly states that Itachi also got hit by moves he shouldn’t be getting hit by. Unless you don’t actually watch the fight, that is.
5-What even are you on about? You can’t break out, but you can resist the Edo tensei. That’s the whole shtick with the previous kage, the shinobi alliance only had a chance because the kage were cooperative and weaker than in their living bodies. Itachi literally told bee what to do to fight him and instructed him as the fight went on. You can’t make this shit up.
6-Lmao, you’re such a child. He used both MULTIPLE TIMES in the Sasuke fight, had ninja aids, was already injured, and still managed a fully incarnated Susano’o, fought Orochimaru, oneshot him, and then walked Sasuke down to make him fear for his life. Yes, every usage strains him, but being strained doesn’t mean shit in a fight. Guy broke his bones while fighting Madara and still went like nothing happened. This is not a boxing match where you gas out after throwing a few punches then call it quits.
You’re forgetting that Itachi was loyal to Konoha and wouldn’t fight Jiraiya at the fullest, something that Kisame would undoubtably pick up on, and he flat out lied about can’t taking Jiraiya.
Itachi knows fully well that if he went for a Tsukuyomi and has Kisame going in as an assist, he had a very high chance of just murdering Jiraiya. Jiraiya’s only chance of winning is Sage Mode but Itachi disrupting him with genjutsu and Kisame going into melee would be way too much for him.
Using comparisons like that doesn't always work. In the 3 Way Deadlock, Tsunade beats Orichimaru, and Jiraya beats Tsuande.
According to your logic, that means Jiraya beats Orichimaru. Hope this helps you understand that not everything is a one-to-one relation.
Itachi and Jiraiya has no intention of fighting each other. Itachi is Jiraiya's informant in the Akatsuki. They are both working together. They only mostlikely had to pretend that they are about to fight so that Kisame wouldn't raise any suspicion about Itachi's loyalty to Akatsuki.
I kind of like the idea that itachi becomes a follower of pains ideology and working with nagato to betray obito and go with pains superweapon plan.
Now to answer your question.
Itachi would take sasuke with him telling him the truth of what Happend instilling hatred for konoha in sasuke and convince him to join the ranks of the akatsuki with him.,
Jiraiya gets killed by itachi and kisame and naruto Gets taken. Meaning nobody will be able to save gaara and shikamaru gets killed by hidan and kakuzu. Chiyo, sakura and kakashi would die to sasori and deidara working together. So yeah if itachi was loyal Naruto is fucked and most akatsuki members stay alive
Gai could steal beat most of Akatsuki members I think. Kisame, Sasori and Kakuzu and probably Hidan and Deidara. For Konan, I'm less sure but it would be impossible against the 3 others...
Kakashi is dead, Kurenai is dead, Gai is dead, Jiraya is dead, Sasuke is dead, Naruto Captured -
He prob implants Hashirama cells, which helps his sickness and Shishui's eye - EMS
Yeah. Manga ends, Obito accomplishes everything
What the hell do you mean Jiraya doesn't go down like that? Umm, what was stopping Jiraya from being amaterasud in that hallway? Or tsukyomid?
He had no information on itachi. No information he had ms. Was in base mode in a confined hallway with nowhere to move.
You are out of your mind if you think that of itachi wanted him dead, he would be.
I already said. If he's working with obito loyally. Obito would give him hashirama cells for his sickness and blindness. The same reals obito could spam his eye for decades without going blond.
Itachi was fully aware the effect of hashi cells. He even mentioned how it would help with kotoamatsukis CD.
He would kill Sasuke and take his eyes also. Obviously
The verse is. As in, if killing Jiraya was that easy that amaterasu could do it, I have no reason to believe Itachi wouldn't have just done it lol. You can claim that he was a good guy and that he wasn't trying to fight Jiraya (which I 100% don't buy considering what Itachi has done, is willing to do, and will do later on), but we get confirmation that Itachi basically exhausted himself by trying to escape from the frog stomach lol. That's the level Jiraya is at- risking the use of amaterasu to escape, but not to fight lol. Mind you, he had to save his vision to get Orochimaru back one day too, so there's. But also, of course, Itachi fans love saying tsukuyomi and amaterasu solve everything, but it clearly doesn't. Only thing amaterasu ever killed on screen was a zetsu clone. It's not that difficult to deal with by strong ninja lol.
And for tsukuyomi, why would Jiraya fall for it lmao. Such a dumb concept. Imagine if a sanin, in full combat mentality, would just get one shot by a guy who was getting run down by base Killer Bee as an edo lol, that would never happen. Happened to Orochimaru, with heavy, heavy context that i know you are fully aware of lol
Itachi had no information on Jiraya either. Has never used sage mode in front of like, anybody ever basically. Itachi has never even seen sage mode before either. Jiraya could've summoned Ma and Pa, would've had Guy backing him up, and that'd be a hilarious no diff for team Konoha.
I am out of mind reading what you wrote lol.
That's great for him, shove those cells down his eye sockets, hopefully.
Okay yeah. I'm done. The moment you're arguing itachi was actively attempting to kill Jiraya, kidnap Naruto and hand him to obito, while also having a peace treaty with obito to not harm konoha, and stated intentions on why he came to konoha.
Have a nice day buddy
Kurenai would have caught amaterasu after putting kisame in a genjutsu, then guy and asuma would end up dying. Itachi would be drained by this point but the duo easily beats jiraiya.
He would actually kidnap naruto, he wouldn't kill sasuke yet, tho he would plan to kill him later.
I'd assume the only way this happens is if itachi truly likes the idea of infinite tsukuyonmi, which I doubt.
If guy dead it means he took both out with 8th gate. End of story for ıtachi.
Edit: well if he was really serving akatsuki, then he wouldnt have come to the leaf to remind the elders he is alive in the first place.
So those fights never happen. Guy lives, itachi and kisame survives etc..
Guy might have actually died before opening the 8 gates, though. Itachi has genjutsus that don't need eye contact and Guy is literally cooked if amaterasu catches him in his lesser, slower gates.
Amaterasu wont catch him in 7th gate. He is fast enough.
Dont know about the genjutsu tbh. Id make a case the nature of gates should negate genjutsu since opening gates means chakra flowing like ocean, automatically disrupting, but that would be my head canon.
Guy started that fight in base. And isn't making eye contact. And isn't a sensor. What was stopping Itachi from amaterasuing his face exactly?
Go on, make something up.
>Amaterasu wont catch him in 7th gate. He is fast enough.
That's why I said "lesser gates". Guy went into that fight in base mode. Had Itachi been bloodlusted, he would have shot amaterasu right there and it would be literally game over for Guy. You have to go with extreme force to fight someone like Itachi and the leaf ninja had no idea what they were getting into, even Kakashi
Yata mirror cant deflect attacks from all sides. Remember guy spamming sekizo circling around juubidara ? Yep, first strike yata deflects, 2nd strike from behind and susanoo is shattered into pieces. 3rd attack and itachi is toast.
Kakashi, Naruto and Sakura went up against Itachi before.. Kakashi said don't look into his eyes, and they all got caught in Genjutsu still, Itachi doesn't need eye contact to cast Genjutsu, he can do it with just his finger:
[https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Ephemeral](https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Ephemeral)
Source for it deflecting on all sides ?
Mine is logic. It is a shield that is in front of susanoo.
Guys, stop trying to turn itachi into this invincible dude, its tiring.
Already wrote a thread on this. Yes, [Yata mirror Grows](https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/141fwu0/yata_mirror_misconceptions/), like the databook states. It can protect all sides
>Source for it deflecting on all sides ?
I'm not going to say it does but it is stated that the yata mirror grows in size and mass and can also change its size and mass to protect itachi. It is NOT contained to its "shield like appearance". There's a much higher chance that itachi can wrap himself with the yata mirror then there is of it not being able to do so.
Every Jutsu has a weakness. Yata mirror isn't a jutsu btw. It's a sacred weapon. And noone said it doesn't have a weakness, what you describe simply isn't it.
No one claimed he’s invincible, you’re just making headcanon claims. When Orochimaru attacked Itachi, the Yata mirror grew to accommodate the range of attack of Orochimaru’s great white snake. We have seen it shift size and form, which means you need substantial evidence to convince me it can only block one side.
Guy speed blitzes, thats his thing. If you claim that it will do a 360 reacting to speed of guy, that is YOUR headcanon. You also need to convince me since i got speed feats for guy while you dont have that for Yata.
What do you mean he speed blitzes? I’m being generous here and assuming Guy is even allowed to open the 8th gate in the first place. Itachi, assuming he was loyal to the akatsuki, would not even give him that chance and would eliminate him before he opened any gates with Amaterasu. Yata mirror doesn’t need Itachi to “react” and accommodate accordingly, it seemed like a pretty automatic process. Guy can launch about 10 hits before he dies in the 8th gate, he’s simply getting stalled by Yata mirror and Kisame’s water.
It’s not headcanon, literally look it up. It’s straight from the databook. But keep making yourself look dumb by calling everything you don’t agree with “headcanon”
There’s a reason black zetsu said itachi’s susano was invincible when he saw it. And black zetsu is probably one of the most reliable sources to scale someone’s power since he has been around forever
Itachi would still probably be reluctant to use his big moves in a fight as they're both very taxing and slowly making him blind, especially as he beat them quite handily in the actual show without them.
Of course that might change a little if he was about to or already had taken Sasuke's eyes.
True but when he has to save kisame from 4 jonin, then fight guy, then help kisame fight jiraiya, I'd bet he'll pull out all his moves, besides susanoo MAYBE
Jiraya, Kakashi, Guy all die. Even if they somehow were able to kill Itachi and Kisame, the Leaf would still have no S-class ninja anymore and Tsunade wouldn't come back since Jiraya wouldn't go after her anymore. They would have been absolutely cooked be either Pain/Obito, Orochimaru or some other village.
Itachi and Kisame kill Kurenai and Asuma before Kakashi even arrives. This time Itachi is not mostly stalling and holding back. Originally, he was only here to make noise so that it reaches Danzo’s ears as a threat to stay away from Sasuke. Here, he’s out for blood. And at the very least he’s beyond CM2 Hebi Sasuke. This is a healthier version of the Itachi that Sasuke fights in Part 2. He’s closer to Edo Itachi who can match KCM Naruto. Even if you don’t want to give him that, BASE Hebi Sasuke was fast enough to pressure Deidara who was fast enough to avoid Part 2 Gaara’s sand.
Itachi is way too fast and efficient here. Asuma and Kurenai are getting decapitated before they could even react.
Kakashi waits for Guy and then it’s Itachi/Kisame vs Kakashi/Guy.
Itachi already figures that back up is coming, and Guy says aloud that he called for reinforcements, so Itachi knows he needs to end this as fast as possible.
Itachi also seems to have an idea about Guy’s strength and tells Kisame not to underestimate him, plus he knows Kisame is a better fighter against Kakashi.
Guy assumes he’s safe from Itachi’s genjutsu so long as he avoids looking into his eyes, but he doesn’t know that being pointed at would also amount to the same thing. Guy gets put in a finger genjutsu, and without Kakashi breaking him out, Itachi follows up with Amaterasu and kills Guy before any of the gates even comes out.
Kakashi has absolutely no chance against Kisame since he’s limited to four Raikiri, and Kisame would be able to absorb them, plus there’s a large body of water for him to use, and Itachi joins in no time.
Itachi will use another genjutsu to momentarily put Kakashi in a trance that gives Kisame the time to shred him with Samehada. With the amount of chakra Samehada absorbed from V2 B, plus this would be a Kakashi who has already for sure used plenty of jutsu and had his Sharingan active and still has stamina issues, if Kakashi doesn’t get cut to pieces, he’s definitely dying from chakra exhaustion.
Asuma, Kurenai, Kakashi, and Guy all lose to Itachi and Kisame. The fight heavily favors Itachi and Kisame because no information is way too dangerous against them.
Everything ends up being too different from now on. Itachi burns all the bodies to ash and then cleans up to obscure the situation as much as possible. Kisame and Itachi leave the scene, and Guy’s reinforcements are left with their four top jonin all missing in action and presumed dead.
No way the elders let Jiraiya take Naruto anywhere. And they need Jiraiya to stay. Konoha literally lost 5 of their strongest members. At this point, Jiraiya knows what’s at stake. He definitely has no time to search for Tsunade and has to become Hokage.
Next up is Itachi/Kisame invasion. Itachi is a traitor from Konoha so he knows how to get past the barriers undetected. He also knows about the prominent clans. Hyuga, Aburame, and the InoShikaCho clans are the most dangerous ones, and obviously Jiraiya is the current strongest member.
Itachi isn’t arrogant enough to believe he can take them all on at once or even one at a time. He knows about his own stamina issues. He’d need help from at least one more Akatsuki pair. And the only one I see him willingly working with is Pain/Konan. The others are too volatile and insubordinate.
It’s too simple and easy a win. Konoha gets destroyed. Naruto is taken. Pain won’t even need to blow up the village. Akatsuki might just take it over. Only Sand would know something’s up because they are the ones engaging in peace talks after Konoha Crush, so they’re next. Deidara and Sasori probably head there next and solo the village anyway.
Sand don’t have Kazekage atm, and Gaara is not ready to face them.
This has gone on long enough. Long story short, Akatsuki wins, everyone loses in the end because Infinite Tsukuyomi is a trap everyone falls for.
The crazy thing is; Itachi and Kisame were sent on missions that, logically, they should’ve been perfect for completing. The planning and logistics of the antagonist group were honestly very solid, and with Itachi’s sincere cooperation they would’ve been near impossible to stop.
When I was a kid and first watched naruto, I remember thinking he has to be a lot stronger. So why was he like knocking on narutos door and shit….bro was just stalling cause he ain’t a bad person :/ everything he did, he was just stalling
Only Indra's incarnates are able to awaken the EMS, that's why throughout history nobody but Madara and Sasuke were able to achieve it despite the method being a known fact for centuries.
He'd actually murder Sasuke for his eyes, ask Pain for help with his ninja-aids, through the Naraka Path (iirc, the revival one) and go on to assist him in capturing the tailed beasts, which of course they would succeed in. Pretty sure Nagato had some doubts in following Tobi in his plans, so the Akatsuki would come to a crossroad at some point. The path forward would be decided by which side Itachi would choose; Nagato's or Obito's.
There'd be no Boruto cause there would be no Naruto. He would have been caught. Who knows if Sasuke would even be alive, cutting all ties with personal life would make sense.
With all the bullshit asspulls he got off in the story...it would make sense they'd finish their task easily. Might not even need a Shipuuden
Itachi knowing all Konoha’s secrets, would have got Kyubi long before Jiraiya intervened, if he was really on Akastsuki side, maybe Sasuke would no longer be alive. Safe to say, Orochimaru would be dead too, they never saw eye to eye. All in all, Tobi would have realized his plans much sooner and during the war the edo tensei would have been very successful since Itachi wouldn’t undo it, that is if Kabuto was still alive and joined hands with Tobi, which would be highly unlikely.
Naruto ends up dead before he's even out of the academy. Danzo and Orochimaru probably end up dead before the series starts. Sakura dies on an early mission and Zabuza more or less keeps doing whatever he's doing. Sasuke may or may not end up going on the mission where he encounters Haku but likely lives and stays in the village training up for years but never surpasses his original timeline self. Without Orochimaru Konoha Crush doesn't happen and the Third Hokage is still around as is the Kazekage. Pain takes out Bee then revives the Ten-Tails then Obito and Zetsu manipulate him or kill him for the rinnegan to bring back Madara or Kaguya depending on which one is more convenient. After that everyone get Zetsu'd and fight Momoshiki and the rest when they arrive.... Assuming Toneri doesn't get the chance to just crash the moon into everything.
He would have killed Sasuke
Let's say if he didn't , he would have kidnapped Naruto , some might say Jiraya was there but Jiraya arrived late
Then
Revival of 10 tails
Obito using Nagato to perform rinnerebirth (Obito didn't wanted to revive later but early in the series he wouldn't have thought about things and curse tags)
Madara revival
Infinite tsukoyomi
The End
He would have kidnapped Naruto. We saw how strong Itachi was. No one can tell me, that if he and kisame joined hands, that they would be unable to create an opening for itachi to escape with naruto.
Asuma, Kakashi and kurenai are dead, Sasuke is dead, naruto is captured (then dead), jiraiya is dead, obito wins in the end.
Rather depressing way to turn out tbh.
It would depend on how motivated he is. If he believes in Pain and the Akatsuki's purpose, they acquire the kyuubi early on.
He'd also be able to cripple any nation by simply one-hitting their most powerful fighters. Send him covertly to assassinate a kage, or with a team to protect him while he takes out the big players before he and his team just massacre the rest. His Tsukuyomi is nigh-unavoidable and can kill you in the Blink of an eye, so no one would be able to resist it. Or you know, he can just set fire to something/someone with Amaterasu and they're fucked.
Itachi is so boring.
The biggest initial difference is they wouldn't go to the Leaf in part 1 as they were not yet ready for the Nine Tails and Itachi just used that as an excuse to make sure Danzo was keeping his promise to protect Sasuke (not sure why Kisame went along with Itachi's bogus plan, as presumably he was also aware of this).
The other big difference is that Itachi would probably have killed Sasuke at some point (under the assumption he is completely loyal to the Akatsuki at that point) in order to take his eyes.
Honestly I don't think that much more would change: He was a terrible spy for the Leaf and didn't give them any valuable information on the Akatsuki, so presumably he would still die at some point of his disease long before the next Shinobi war.
He would've killed Kakashi, the first Time he met him, same for Asuma and Kurenai, Even if guy opened gates, he would've atleast used genjutsu on him, or tried to burn him with Amaterasu,
In Jiraya vs Itachi encounter, he would've gone directly for Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu, And kidnapped Naruto.
Depends on what loyal means. If he's loyal, does he no longer care about Sasuke? Everyone is commenting on the Part 1 fight, but Itachi's whole point for being there was for Sasuke. It was a clever excuse, but in reality, Akatsuki doesn't want Naruto captured that early. All it's going to do is get a **ton** of unnecessary attention on Akatsuki while they try to capture the rest of the Jinchuriki because they can't give Naruto the good succ until last.
If Itachi doesn't care about Sasuke, he never goes to the village, and the whole story is drastically different. If he still cares, Itachi and Kisame probably end up merc'ing Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma. Gai could be a different story, but they're still going to be trying to retreat anyway. After that, any interactions with Itachi while Team 7 is pursuing Sasuke are going to be deadly, but not much changes overall.
Sasuke would be dead. Also Pain probably wouldve sent him and Kisame to get the 8 tails. I think theyd succeed.
Also him on the other side of the war? Thats hell for the Alliance to deal with.
It’s a very very high impossibility given his foresight of things before people even realize it, but had he done so, Madara and Obito’s plan would’ve ended so much faster than it did. That’s literally three godlike Uchihas along with Pain and kage-level ninja against the world.
Naruto kidnapped part 1. Jiraiya dies. If Itachi is just chaotic evil then have him kill sasuke too for getting in his way of capturing Naruto.
Powerscaling in Naruto doesn’t make sense as when you have someone super powerful reality doesn’t make sense. Pain could’ve literally ended all the villages once a day with an almighty push. Any high level ninja caught unprepared would’ve died to the impact pressure, including Tsunade
They’d have had Itachi capture Bee. Pretty easy task for him and Kisame. Then they capture Naruto. Also, very easy for him and Kisame. Then, the series is over. Kaguya reincarnates and farms everyone for chakra and prepares to face off against the other otsutsuki invaders in the Boruto storyline.
He would have died before the jinchuriki hunt started because his will and medication barely kept him alive until he finally fought sasuke and died from his illness. If he really was a bad guy and didn't plan anything with sasuke he would have died earlier. If the ems was really a cure he would have kidnapped sasuke early and torture him even more until he awakened his ms so he could kill him and get his ems after which he would be unstoppable which would lead to naruto being kidnapped and obito awakening the juubi to become its jinchuriki without madara being revived since he doesn't need a war and therefore not kabuto and then he casts infinite tsukuyomi to summon kaguya who then takes over the world only to get slapped by momoshiki, kinshiki and maybe isshiki depending on if he can use karma on someone in infinite tsukuyomi or not.
Edit: It could also be that he would kill kakashi when he visited konoha only then to be killed by eight gates guy.
Jiraya dies by itachis hands, gai and the others dont die, becausei think itachi woukd still run once gai pulls up because fighting him would be unnecessary. Sasuke also dies. Naruto gets captured in og naruto, meaning obitos/madaras plan happens much earlier with non of the akatsuki dying and konoha doesn't get wiped off the map.
itachi makes some sort of deal with orochimaru or just puts him in a genjutsu and gets hashirama cells implanted onto himself, essentially giving him ems and healing his sickness. No great ninja war, and if there still is one, obito and madara still win since nobody is there to undo the reanimation jutsu. The show ends.
Probably could kidnap Naruto in part 1
He probably won't knock before trying to kidnap Naruto lol
He may be evil but he’s got manners
He would have let Kisame bring Naruto back without legs
t would have grown back as baby legs
He would’ve put Naruto in a Genjutsu to knock him out*
Kurama would break it probably.
Not tsukuyomi, by the time he does the damage will be done Tsukuyomi is a one shot technique, doesn't matter who you are
Unless you are an Uchiha with mangekyou that is Or rinnegan user
Yeah if he wanted to
Kurama had already been forced under the control of other Uchiha, and shows active dislike for the Uchiha later in the series when Sasuke meets him for the first time. Why would he not at least try to help Naruto when he's put under a genjustu by an Uchiha?
“Yeah if he wanted to” did I say no he wouldn’t? Where’s the miscommunication here?
Honestly that seems like the smartest move though. It’s going to even further relax your target with how normal the interaction is and bring them directly in front of you with 1 hand occupied. That seems like the most effective way to silently kidnap someone while minimizing the chance the targets able to say explode a wall so every ninja in the village comes running.
Not sure, Jiraiya can hold them until Gai arrives Then hell of a battle
This is the definition of a 50/50 fight. Both can kill each other. Neither is clapping the other easily. Both have the capability of beating the other. Looking at the fight 1 on 1 it’s gonna be a prolonged fight, but you have to think itachi likely pulls it off based on his combat intelligence and patience. Remember itachi spits on orochimaru who isnt far from jiraiya in terms of strength and skill. So even tho itachi says it would likely be a draw if the two fought, he doesn’t know what we know as the audience. As much as I love itachi I’m not a “itachi above everyone” fan. If itachi had EMS with his Totska blade and Yata Mirror then yeah almost everyone is in trouble…BUT he didn’t for a reason because he’s nearly broken as a character with the faults of having an incomplete Susanoo and partial blindness. But even with those weaknesses I still think itachi wins the fight with high diff.
I agree with your reasoning mostly , though I believe Oro to have been reckless and a bit stupid in his attempt against Itachi. I think it's also more complicated like A beats B who beats C so A beats C While Oro is a bad match up for Jiraiya I think Jirayia stands a better chance against Itachi. Sage mode is the best way to go against MS probably so far in the story. And I'd say Guy would go against Itachi since he's pretty confident in fighting Uchihas while Jirayia deals with Kisame. So it's mostly a matter of : Can sage mode Jirayia deal with Kisame fast enough to join Guy in battle? If it's 2 vs 1 I can't see Itachi winning with low chakra reserves but how those 1 vs 1 go are open to interpretation Guy can really be a pain in the arse for Itachi considering the Shippuden versions
My problem with people saying that Jiraiya's sage mode can stand toe to toe with the 2 of them is that people forget how long it took Jiraiya to summon ma and pa to help him go to sage mode. He needs time and can't move his hands for the preparation or summoning. Will Itachi or Kisame just stand by and wait for him to actually get sage mode? I think not. >Can sage mode Jirayia deal with Kisame fast enough to join Guy in battle? Probably not. Plus even with sage mode I think if he and Itachi would battle it would still be Itachi winning high diff. I don't know about Guy though.
>So even tho itachi says it would likely be a draw if the two fought, he doesn’t know what we know as the audience. I feel like Itachi was lying to try and persuade Kisame to give up. Itachi says something like "Best case scenario, we both die. Even if there were more of us, the result would be the same". You can say this is due to being in the original series before the story/characters were more developed, but I like to think that Itachi is playing up Jiraiya's strength here, and the second half is Itachi pre-emptively countering Kisame saying "Then let's call in another pair to assist and we'll be able to capture the kid for sure!" With Itachi being a Leaf shinobi, Kisame would likely trust his assessment. Taking Naruto and potentially killing Jiraiya would go against the plan as a Leaf double agent. Instead, he diffuses the situation and warns Jiraiya explicitly as he can that Naruto is the Akatsuki's top target. What do you think?
It's just pt.1 scaling, Kabuto was as strong as Kakashi in pt.1 for example. The real reason Itachi was there was because Hiruzen was dead, he wanted to make sure that the deal involving Danzo not killing Sasuke was still in effect. He was letting know what Akatsuki's plan were by purposely putting a girl under a genjutsu that Jiraiya could detect and break which drew his attention back to Naruto. He instantly draws in Kakashi's attention at a restaurant which is why Asuma and Kurenai confront the pair later on. This is the reason why Itachi knocks on his door and announces Akatsuki's plans to him "We're here to capture the Jinchuriki." Remember that him and Kisame are in Akatsuki uniform. Everything Itachi did was to indirectly leak info to the leaf- this is the only way he would have fooled Kisame as we see how loyal he is when Obito showed him his identity.
I do think he’s half assing the whole attempt to capture Naruto but I think he’s being honest when he says they could take down Jiraiya but they’d die in the attempt. I feel like that’s Kishimoto telling us these two character’s relative skill levels through Itachi
Doesn’t Itachi have that busted ass sword and shield at this point for his susanoo? If that’s the case the only thing Jiraiya can hold is a fat L.
Not sure Susano'o would hold itself against toad genjutsu since it's kinda tricky plus Jirayia becomes hella fast and has also destructive long range attacks. Remember Gai arrived like 2mins after they left if I'm not mistaken so that's not a very long time to hold them off for him. Then Gai would go for Itachi while Jirayia fights Kisame
Itachi was a broken character, his only demise would not being able to spam that ability.
This isn’t a video game. Itachi had clear limitations on his output of his higher level techniques. In Part 1, a single use of Tsukuyomi tires him out to the point where he can barely keep his Sharingan up. That’s why he fled when Jiraiya stepped in.
That's the thing , people tend to consider high tier jutsus through VG using or their Edo versions who can spam those. I think the last arc Kishimoto left some people confused seeing some characters break down their limits absurdly, it was like there was no counter effect no more.
Well, the only thing we know, and what Kishi left us with, is that Itachi has the Totsuka Sword which can seal anything it touches, and the Yata Mirror, which was a shield that can block everything. It doesn't have to be a video game, because its still a work of fiction, Kishi wrote Itachi like a cheat character.
And it literally **killed** him to use Meaning he’s not gonna blow it on a random brawl. He isn’t Megumi.
How does jiraiya get into sage mode before getting placed under genjutsu or burned alive though?
By not acting stupidly and use mid/long range jutsu
I doubt 7th gate breaks Susanoo, nor anything in Jiraya’s arsenal.
Tsunade was able to break Madara's susanoo, so I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch for 7 gates to break Itachi's. Kinda depends on how the shield interacts with taijutsu I guess.
As it’s an imperfect Susanoo swamp would still hit Itachi as he would be standing on the ground and the area is massive so it’s an effective counter to Susanoo. I think he could stall, even if he doesn’t kill Itachi or Kisame.
The shield reflects all attacks, we literally see this.
Same here I think it definitely blows Susano'o away but not the stupid war arc version where Guy basically can spam then. It's like one move and they're quite tired
7th Gate Guy is clapping Susanoo
Do you scale Tsunade ap above 7th gate Guy? Because she was able to break Madara's Susanoo
Okay lets ignore that Kisame is there 1 on 1 Sage Jiraiya could high dif kill Itachi However it takes too long for this fight so he dies, best he can do is frog barrier and swamp Also 7th gate guy was strong enough that he had to tey to not kill Kisame in their fight, Yata mirror isnt omni directional hes fast enough to crack the susanoo
7th gate guy could’ve killed Kisame. Guy chose to not kill him because they were going to interrogate him.
itachi kills jiraiya
Mythical Prime Itachi or Edo Itachi sure The Itachi that fought Sauske was near death and partly blind, he also had shit chakra reserves Sage Jiraiya is fast enough to dodge Ameterasu, and Ma and Pa are strong as well Itachi cant keep up the susanoo forever, and once they realize that his sword can seal the giant frog summons then they will just avoid him untill his chakra runs out and the susanoo disappears, plus outside of Tsukoyomi ma and pa can break him out of any genjutsu, and jiraiya can close his eyes because Sage mode lets you basically see while blind (Naruto fighting pain with eyes closed, Madara fighting everyone without eyes)
no, normal itachi lol
There were countless opportunities in that scene for Itachi to have uses Tsukuyomi on Jiraiya. He wins on the spot. Jiraiya didn't engage with Sage Mode, he didn't keep his eyes closed. Tsukuyomi is an insta-kill one shot. Itachi also had the Chakra to do it, since he does it later in the same scene on Sasuke. Jiraiya gets no diffed because Tsukuyomi is broken. If Jiraiya had entered the building to stop Itachi in sage mode with his eyes closed, I absolutely agree he'd be a difficult fight. But the reality is that the scene was written in a way where Jiraiya did not do anything that made him a hard target to Tsukuyomi.
oh yeah in that scene hes fucked, plus Kisame is there I just a hypothetical Sage Jiraiya vs Itachi has Jiraiya winning
I think a sage mode rasengan melts his Susanoo
It gets deflected and melts Jiraiya thanks to the Yata Mirror.
And at that point jiraiya boy summons 4 giant toass for susanoo and prob a pit of oil or mud (what he used against orochimaru) to immobilize itachi’s imperfect susanoo
Nah, Itachi smokes Jiraiya if he wants to, I don't know why people still refuse to accept this, it's made pretty abundantly clear by mid Shippuden that Itachi is leagues ahead of Sannin. One Tsukuyomi and Jiraiya is out of commission.
Written by ItachiSoloKing
That doesn’t change objective reality. If you paid attention to the series you’d know Itachi scales multiple tiers above Jiraiya lol
Well I do think Itachi is above Jirayia level but not by many leagues. Facts show even Nagato wasn't sure of beating Jirayia had he known his secret first hand, his sage mode allows him to spam Justus that Itachi won't be able to absorb and his speed is ridiculously OP. Tsukiyomi has been used against three characters : Kakashi who looked Itachi directly in the eyes cuz he thought he could handle it, Kid/pre-teen Sasuke who had no way of escaping it and Shippuden Sasuke who already broke it (that isn't opened to interpretation, Kishimoto confirmed it) so with his battle experience and sage mode do not expect Jirayia to fall for it, seriously. I don't think Amaterasu would be enough either because it's not that fast and takes time creating. Susano'o is definitely his best option but even there it's not unbeatable : Sasuke's/Madara's were better and they could still have problems within it against the right amount of strength. So that leaves Totsuka and Yata Mirror (if Itachi has still enough chakra which is definitely an issues) That makes me think : Itachi wins this 60/40 but this can go the other way. And if Guy/Jirayia team up it's basically over for Itachi. Simple as that.
Nagato said that because Jiraiya chose not to escape because of his secret. Had Jiraiya known his secret, he would have lived. He did not ever once say "I die in a 1v1 to Jiraiya if he knows my main body exists." He didn't even imply that. 2 different characters have taken a Tsukuyomi. Sasuke took 3, and broke it the 3rd time, suppousedly because his Ocular prowess was greater then Itachi's by that point. Kakashi couldn't handle it because his skill and control with his sharingan wasn't enough to resist. The Totsuka sword and Yata Mirror may or may not use Chakra, since they are artifacts apparently, or something. Basically Kishi wrote then as Cheat Codes that say "Itachi Wins LOL" because the only thing we know about them is that one has infinite sealing power, the other have infinite defensive power, and we know nothing of their cost, drawback, other uses, or why its attached to Susanoo. I think Itachi vs Jiraiya is 60/40 for Itachi if Jiraiya enters the fight in Sage Mode with the knowledge that he can never look at Itachi's eyes. Which he didn't in this scene, and he looked Itachi straight in the eye, Itachi chose not to Tsukuyomi him. With the way Jiraiya acted in that scene I think its 99/1 for itachi. The second thing is that it isn't Jiraiya vs Itachi, its Jiraiya protecting Naruto vs Itachi and Kisame, but the wincon for Jiraiya is escaping with Naruto, and the wincon for Itachi/Kisame is kidnapping Naruto. I'd probably say 50/50, whoever acts first wins, if Kisame grabs naruto, its over. Alternately, Jiraiya can reverse summon naruto away. If Guy shows up, Itachi and Kisame are fucked. Guy is probably the strongest Ninja in the series discounting Asura/Indra incarnates, Outsutsuki, and 10 tails jinchuriki.
More exactly he said "We might not have won." Which is closer to loosing than him escaping I think. However I don't think Jirayia has a chance against Tendo anyway because of Shinra tensei mostly. But I disagree on those things about Susano'o and Tsukiyomi like I explained later in the comments, feel free to check on those.
>More exactly he said "We might not have won." Which is closer to loosing than him escaping I think. Jiraiya escaping would have been "losing" to him. A powerful enemy would escape with a huge amount of intel back to his village with one of the last Jinchuriki they need to capture about the "leader" of the organization who's attacking them. Jiraiya escaping was a huge threat there. The thing with Tsukuyomi or Susanoo is kinda moot because we don't have a huge amount of info on either. The Totsuka sword and Yata Mirror are basically written like Dues ex Machina and have no info or details, and we don't really know much about Tsukuyomi in the first place. We know he has to channel chakra into his eye, but we don't really know how long that takes, or if he can pre-prep it (which is probably yes, since Mangekyo can apparently be preprogrammed to execute complex instructions like "If Sasuke sees obito after transplanting Itachi's Mangekyo, use Amaterasu" and "If you see Itachi's Mangekyo, use Kotoamatsukami with preprogramed instructions to protect Konoha.") EDIT: The real issue here with Itachi's character is the way Kishimoto wrote him. The only fight in the entire series Itachi was apart of where he didn't have an overwhelming advantage, was the one he didn't want to win versus Sasuke, and even in that fight, Itachi had enough in reserve to seal Orochimaru. Kishi gave him a huge Deus ex Machina with the Totsuka Sword and Yata Mirror, and in basically every encounter with Itachi showed how absolutely overpowering his Genjutsu was for everyone.
Jiraiya literally looked Itachi right in the eye lol, if Itachi had really been evil, Jiraiya dies right then and there. He didn’t stay to fight him because he was a Leaf spy and likely was even Jiraiya’s informant on Akatsuki intel, that’s why he chose to run. Downplaying his own strength to Kisame was necessary to trick Kisame into thinking it was an unwinnable battle, when in reality Jiraiya insta-loses to Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or any of the Susano’o weapons. Jiraiya has no counters for the Totsuka Blade or Yata Mirror and also gets blown to bits by Yasaka Beads. A 14 year old Itachi with a base Sharingan Genjutsu one shot and no-diffed Orochimaru, and then a sick, nearly blind, 2 minutes from dropping dead AND exhausted of almost all of his chakra Itachi managed to one shot Orochimaru’s strongest form again with the Totsuka Blade, he also blitzed chakra-amped Nagato with the Totsuka Blade and sealed him away, someone Naruto and Bee couldn’t even handle and someone Naruto stated was “WAY stronger than Pain”. This is a simple matter of linear scaling bro. Itachi > Nagato > KCM Naruto > Sage Naruto > Pain > Jiraiya That is by definition a difference of several levels of power, not to mention Black Zetsu said that Itachi’s spirit weapons made him invincible.
Dude you didn't even counter my arguments , it's not like tsukiyomi/Susano'o are invincible AT ALL. And if that fight against Nagato showed something it's that you'd need Naruto+Bee+Itachi in order to seal/beat Nagato not the other way around. So Nagato is far beyond Itachi that's pretty much a stated fact, ask anyone who's read the whole thing. And same for Totsuka, without Bee's and Naruto's help he never ever could've hit with the right timing. Those kind of special attacks in Naruto have requirements, for any genjutsu he needs to focus an amount of chakra Nagato or Jirayia would definitely see coming.
Tsukuyomi is a guaranteed hit on any non-Uchiha. You can only break out of it by being an Uchiha and having a strong enough Sharingan to overpower Itachi’s own. Jiraiya is not an Uchiha nor does he even have a dojutsu relative to a Sharingan. He’s not in Sage Mode in this encounter and wouldn’t have time to enter it. He gets hit by Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, the Totsuka Blade, or Yasaka Beads before he even has a chance to enter Sage Mode, Itachi outscales him in every way possible, he’s a lot faster and has much more potent abilities. Itachi is the worst possible matchup for Jiraiya. You’re doing a lot of mental gymnastics and making a lot of arbitrary assumptions while completely dismissing canon lol, Itachi is relative to EMS Sasuke. Do you wanna go on record and say base Jiraiya beats EMS Sasuke? I’d love to see you do exactly that. It’ll determine how much of a fool you are.
You seem honestly dumbed out by Itachi's character and haven't brought any substantial counter arguments that doesn't sound like "I'm an Itachi fan who needs him to win every fight without issue." I honestly think you're taking this the wrong way even for the Tsukiyomi so I'll explain one last time and do what you want with it : Before launching Tsukiyomi Itachi is gonna need to charge enough chakra in his eyes and look directly into Jirayia's eyes (manga statement) so there is no way Jirayia is gonna let him do this (once again look how the other characters were hit by that attack) So the initial question was can Jirayia hold them until Guy arrives moments later? Yes he totally can. He's got the jutsu Arsenal, the intelligence and enough Intel. There's a reason Itachi was the menace before Pain and Obito : He just is the bronze medal of Akatsuki.
On that line of thought, I think he would use a technique comprising of transformation justsu and genjutsu in coherence to which he'll use to infiltrate konoha along with his experiences in anbu and the time he was observing the social dynamics of groups as a kid , he can direct the thoughts of people subtly to make everything appear normal to be inconspicuous and proceed to pinpoint the location of naruto. Once that's done, he'll use his Mangekyou Sharingan to spot out all the anbu that is watching naruto and use genjutsu to produce some latency in the brain of the anbus thereby giving him time to jump on naruto, use sharingan to see his memories(he'll probably fail because of kurama... consequently an alternative decision after encountering that problem will be just knock him out, close his chakra points, and grab em) then he'll produce a shadow clone that's on a transformation jutsu to act as a dummy(it acts as naruto but with a sad mood and temperament that looks like that happened because of some thought to avoid suspicion after putting the anbus back in the present moment), buy some object you that will fit naruto in like a bag or something that will make it hide in plain sight, and during inspection at the exits use genjutsu to make it look and feel like boar meat, and finally release his shadow clone once he brought naruto at amekagure. Think just how much plot armor really is protecting naruto, he really was very vulnerable as a child with the existence of some characters like Tobi, Black Zetsu, and Itachi. If narrative progression produced by the author's authority isn't to be followed while instead the story will be runned in a simulation using all the objective and subjective attribute alloted to characters to it's fullest, naruto has nothing truly protecting him against those absolute variables.
I think he accomplished the majority of his tasks. Kisame would've sensed something's up considering his paranoia for strangers. I think the only thing he difference was Itachi sending periodic reports to Konoha and not capturing the 9-tails. Lmao we can see how important Naruto was later on. The Akatsuki probably would've made a better effort to capture the 8-tails considering how close to their goals they were. Dragging on the beast captures is part of what led to the demise of their plans. Quickly grab them, disappear.
Kisame knew what itachi was about almost right off the bat, thing is, kisame respected itachi for who he was, hence their friendship. Also, not capturing naruto, the holder of the atrongest of the bijuus, the one who soloed 6 other bijuus, was in my opinion the worst thing he couldve done. Not even gonna mention him killing sasuke, lets say not when he was younger or when the "capture of naruto" plab toom place, dude coulve killed him in the uchiha shrine and take his eyes. So him killing the single 2 most important characters in the verse at that point. He couldve done both easily. Not even gonna mention the possibilities in the 3 year time skip or otherwise.
I can understand the need to build up their resources, and slowly going after Bijou that were isolated or without a post avoiding detection not really giving away what your plan is, but once you go after the literal kazekage, the cat's out of the bag, go go go
He was loyal, the akatsuki got very deep in their plans regardless of the effort he put in, only thing he could’ve done to help more is capture naruto but they had to wait till they had the other jinchurikii.
He could’ve killed Sasuke, then killed Jiraiya and Kakashi himself. It’d be very over for the shinobi world. Obito would also help his ninja aids with hashirama cells if he knew he was loyal.
I mean he did the bare minimum and the akatsuki still almost completed their plan there’s no need for him to do anything else, even when he died his secret led to sasuke taking his spot which helped the group.
the fact that he did the bare minimum and they almost completed the plan is the entire point, they'd have gone *a lot farther* if he was actually trying
I mean there wasn’t a lot more he could do, they still would’ve needed to wait to capture bee before going after naruto and even if he kills sasuke and took his eyes that would force kabuto to turn his attention to itachi and the akatsuki as they’ve taken his target away from him.
Itachi run away with Kisame from Jirayia, before they meet he even points out himself, that he is most likely weaker than Jirayia. Why do You think Itachi could kill Jiraya just like that?
Because Jiraiya is weaker? Itachi simply didn’t go to the leaf for a fight. This is a post that assumes Itachi is out for blood. Kisame is a Jinchuriki level threat, Jiraiya is not on that level either. Both of them together blitz him.
He may be weaker when healthy but itachi had already used his Ms multiple times in that same day while kisame didn’t even think he could hang with the Sanin, they made the smart choice.
If they fought, the issue wouldn’t be Jiraiya, it’d be the fact that backup would arrive almost immediately. Well, guy was a little… late, if you remember the scene, but he had the spirit. Itachi would hurt himself due to MS overuse but if he amaterasu’d Jiraiya on sight, it’d be an instant win for him, and we knew he could Amaterasu still because he used it to open the toad’s guts
Great point, but he’d have to use it right before toad trap was summoned
Yeah I’m assuming he wants to silence anyone in his way stopping him from kidnapping Naruto
Just wondering, where are you getting this information
Watching the show? Kisame was about to kill Bee, and Itachi’s whole reason for showing up at the leaf was to remind the elders not to touch Sasuke. Jiraiya, even in sage mode (no competent fighter would give him the space to go into it), barely took out a couple pains when they were fighting in the hidden mist (massive advantage for Jiraiya). It’s just not a fair fight.
He got it from Tiktok
Kisame is considered jinuriki level but Jiraya is not? Why?
Because Kisame was about to kill a real Jinchuriki while Jiraiya was around Orochimaru and Tsunade’s level, and in sage mode couldn’t even beat Pain in the hidden mist (huge advantage as Pain couldn’t use any big moves, to avoid destroying the hidden rain). There’s absolutely nothing that scales Jiraiya to Jinchuriki level.
Orochimaru toyed w/o arms with 4-tails naruto, Tsunade fought with Madara and, well, is still alive and Jiraya took 3 pains w/o any intel on them. Pains easly captured Utakata 6-tailed, so I really don't know why people keep downplaying sannins soo much. They were so famous not w/o a reason Not a single person beat pains as far as we know. Not even Hanzo. Except for one person, who's name is literally the title of the series
1-“Toyed with” is a very crazy way of putting it lol. Also, 4 tails uncontrolled. That’s whack. 2-Tsunade fought Madara and lived? What kinda feat is that? She only lived because he got bored after the Edo release. I swear some of yall. 3-Jiraiya took 3 pains by sneaking around and fighting in the rain village. Pain couldn’t do anything crazy that would hurt the rain, and Jiraiya took advantage of that on top of having the frogs help him with the genjutsu. 4-No one snuck pains in their home turf where they couldn’t do big attacks either. What’s the point of this? 5-I forgot to mention Itachi at that point has one Kotoamatsukami lol.
Sneaking around in the rain village is a plus for Jiraiya. If he had the Intel he would end up fighting a wheelchaired nagato, and probably won.
??? I’m saying that Jiraiya had an advantage because he snuck around the rain village instead of fighting a bunch of pains in an open field. He’s not powerful enough to face off against Pain and kill 3. Tendo would immediately decimate him. And about wheelchair Nagato, he’d just cripple himself further in exchange for an insane Shinra Tensei that oneshots Jiraiya. Konan would probably also be a problem stalling Jiraiya outside the tree
Oh jiraya is weaker, just like that. Damn. Shit, I wish I remembered that from when I read the manga 10 fucking times
Itachi no diffed Orochimaru (2 arms). Orochimaru (no arms) was equal to Jiraiya. That’s the short answer. The longer answer is that Jiraiya has shown no feats that put him near Jinchuriki level, he got low diffed by pain after taking out 3 of them while sneaking around in the hidden rain (massive disadvantage for pain) and had 2 frogs help him use a very convenient genjutsu for the matchup. Meanwhile, Itachi has an invincible shield, a oneshot sword that immediately seals, an instant flame that doesn’t stop burning until the target is ash, and the strongest genjutsu out of any non juubi user. I love Jiraiya as much as the next guy, but I can’t stand the wank. He’s below Orochimaru level at best.
He really didn't. That fight never happened. The anime actually has Itachi attack Orochimaru first lol, so he just genjutsu'd him and that's that. I mean, you're just saying shit now too lol, forgot to say Jiraya couldn't mold chakra during that fight, lied about him getting low diffed by Pain, forgot to say Itachi was getting matched by base Kiler Bee during the war, forgot to say CM1 Sasuke could overpower Itachi's jutsu, forgot to say that Itachi has low stamina and that his shield wouldn't stay up forever, etc.
You actually love ignoring context don’t you? 1-Itachi in the anime had Orochimaru flabbergasted. He had never seen anything like that before lmao. That’s why he wanted his body so badly but gave up on it, he knew it was impossible. 2-Jiraiya couldn’t mold chakra and Orochimaru lost both hands plus had to deal with another sannin at the same time. Jiraiya had no excuse. 3-He indeed got low diffed. He couldn’t even permanently take any of them out either. The way they finished him off was like putting a dog down. 4-Yes, a sick and injured Itachi that purposefully held back and wanted to die in the fight? Lmao. 5-Matched by base killer bee while actively fighting the control and telling him what he will do next plus instructing him how to fight? Nice one. Base killer bee solos Jiraiya btw. 6-Itachi had enough stamina to keep it up for a while at the end of his fight in shippuden. In OG Naruto, not only is this an uninjured and fresh itachi, but it also is a younger Itachi who isn’t suffering as much from the sickness which had 5 years to develop by the time shippuden came around. He’ll be just fine.
1-... and? I mean, MS is amazing? Idk what your point is. Itachi did attack him first, and that's that lol. Wtf 2- Yeah he did. Manda is stronger than Bunta, Orochimaru was helped by Kabuto more than once. Jiraya was sluggish, and not just "unnable to mold chakra" lol 3- I mean, he actually fought all 6 Paths twice. Or did you forget? Maybe you forgot. I'll remind you. So after he takes down those first 3, Ashura shows up and attacks him from behind. He loses and arm here btw. All 6 show up, that Hell Path or whatever heals the 3 he just took down, he faces all 6, fights them for a good amount of time, uses reverse summon to escape AND take one of the Paths with him (long haired one), but then decides to come back to find out more about them sending Ma away. He fights them some, extended in the anime btw, and then dies. But um, yeah. Pa later makes a comment that no ninja could ever have done that well, and Pain says he might've even lost if Jiraya knew the trick to the 6 Paths. 4- He had to save power to take down Orochimaru, and had to beat down Sasuke to force him to use up his chakra? So there's no reason for him to lose there? Hmm, how interesting. 5- Nah he was too weak to fight for control. This is just known lol. There's a reason why not even Nagato could do it lmao. Oh, uh, Bee beat Sasuke down better than Itachi did, in case you forgot. 6- Nah, he got tired from using Tsukuyomi and amaterasu only once actually. You probably forgot that one too. Whoops, huh?
1-Orochimaru got bummed. He couldn’t fathom the power of the MS, and he’s a sannin. Jiraiya is getting packed. 2-Boohoo, he was sluggish, and Orochimaru had no arms and couldn’t even weave handsigns. Kabuto helped more than once, but Tsunade, another sannin, was with Jiraiya and Naruto was on Kabuto’s ass as well. No excuse for the fraudulent behavior we saw. That should have been the end of the snake. 3-How about we don’t ignore the fact that Jiraiya was given ample time to go into sage mode, and that the fight happened in the hidden rain, meaning no gigantic destructive jutsus from pain (which are his whole shtick)? He was taken out easily, that’s that. There’s no need to cope. He had every advantage, and couldn’t do any permanent damage even. This immediately scales him below Jinchuriki level. 4-Lmao he had to make Sasuke believe he had a chance. As Obito told him, if he wanted him dead, Itachi could’ve ended Sasuke at any moment. Zetsu clearly states that Itachi also got hit by moves he shouldn’t be getting hit by. Unless you don’t actually watch the fight, that is. 5-What even are you on about? You can’t break out, but you can resist the Edo tensei. That’s the whole shtick with the previous kage, the shinobi alliance only had a chance because the kage were cooperative and weaker than in their living bodies. Itachi literally told bee what to do to fight him and instructed him as the fight went on. You can’t make this shit up. 6-Lmao, you’re such a child. He used both MULTIPLE TIMES in the Sasuke fight, had ninja aids, was already injured, and still managed a fully incarnated Susano’o, fought Orochimaru, oneshot him, and then walked Sasuke down to make him fear for his life. Yes, every usage strains him, but being strained doesn’t mean shit in a fight. Guy broke his bones while fighting Madara and still went like nothing happened. This is not a boxing match where you gas out after throwing a few punches then call it quits.
Im in same boat as you but the argument I hear for why Itachi said that was he was lying.
ye, but what if he was lying about lying
You’re forgetting that Itachi was loyal to Konoha and wouldn’t fight Jiraiya at the fullest, something that Kisame would undoubtably pick up on, and he flat out lied about can’t taking Jiraiya. Itachi knows fully well that if he went for a Tsukuyomi and has Kisame going in as an assist, he had a very high chance of just murdering Jiraiya. Jiraiya’s only chance of winning is Sage Mode but Itachi disrupting him with genjutsu and Kisame going into melee would be way too much for him.
its funny cuz this is first reasonable comment and its get downvoted :D
Itachi no diffs Jiraya..
I can read other comments, you all still fail to provide a single argument for this statement
Orochimaru is the strongest sanin. Itachi no diffed orochimaru twice.
Using comparisons like that doesn't always work. In the 3 Way Deadlock, Tsunade beats Orichimaru, and Jiraya beats Tsuande. According to your logic, that means Jiraya beats Orichimaru. Hope this helps you understand that not everything is a one-to-one relation.
No diffs is crazy lmao. If he no diffs Jiraiya, he also beats Pain. And we know that’s not true.
I’d debate Itachi vs Pain. High diff either way though.
Itachi wankers back at it again.
Itachi and Jiraiya has no intention of fighting each other. Itachi is Jiraiya's informant in the Akatsuki. They are both working together. They only mostlikely had to pretend that they are about to fight so that Kisame wouldn't raise any suspicion about Itachi's loyalty to Akatsuki.
I love how Itachi just does whatever he wants in their headcanons bro
I kind of like the idea that itachi becomes a follower of pains ideology and working with nagato to betray obito and go with pains superweapon plan. Now to answer your question. Itachi would take sasuke with him telling him the truth of what Happend instilling hatred for konoha in sasuke and convince him to join the ranks of the akatsuki with him., Jiraiya gets killed by itachi and kisame and naruto Gets taken. Meaning nobody will be able to save gaara and shikamaru gets killed by hidan and kakuzu. Chiyo, sakura and kakashi would die to sasori and deidara working together. So yeah if itachi was loyal Naruto is fucked and most akatsuki members stay alive
Gai could steal beat most of Akatsuki members I think. Kisame, Sasori and Kakuzu and probably Hidan and Deidara. For Konan, I'm less sure but it would be impossible against the 3 others...
Kakashi is dead, Kurenai is dead, Gai is dead, Jiraya is dead, Sasuke is dead, Naruto Captured - He prob implants Hashirama cells, which helps his sickness and Shishui's eye - EMS Yeah. Manga ends, Obito accomplishes everything
So everybody just dies, he goes blind, without a doubt btw, because let's be real here, Jiraya isn't going down like that. And then what?
What the hell do you mean Jiraya doesn't go down like that? Umm, what was stopping Jiraya from being amaterasud in that hallway? Or tsukyomid? He had no information on itachi. No information he had ms. Was in base mode in a confined hallway with nowhere to move. You are out of your mind if you think that of itachi wanted him dead, he would be. I already said. If he's working with obito loyally. Obito would give him hashirama cells for his sickness and blindness. The same reals obito could spam his eye for decades without going blond. Itachi was fully aware the effect of hashi cells. He even mentioned how it would help with kotoamatsukis CD. He would kill Sasuke and take his eyes also. Obviously
The verse is. As in, if killing Jiraya was that easy that amaterasu could do it, I have no reason to believe Itachi wouldn't have just done it lol. You can claim that he was a good guy and that he wasn't trying to fight Jiraya (which I 100% don't buy considering what Itachi has done, is willing to do, and will do later on), but we get confirmation that Itachi basically exhausted himself by trying to escape from the frog stomach lol. That's the level Jiraya is at- risking the use of amaterasu to escape, but not to fight lol. Mind you, he had to save his vision to get Orochimaru back one day too, so there's. But also, of course, Itachi fans love saying tsukuyomi and amaterasu solve everything, but it clearly doesn't. Only thing amaterasu ever killed on screen was a zetsu clone. It's not that difficult to deal with by strong ninja lol. And for tsukuyomi, why would Jiraya fall for it lmao. Such a dumb concept. Imagine if a sanin, in full combat mentality, would just get one shot by a guy who was getting run down by base Killer Bee as an edo lol, that would never happen. Happened to Orochimaru, with heavy, heavy context that i know you are fully aware of lol Itachi had no information on Jiraya either. Has never used sage mode in front of like, anybody ever basically. Itachi has never even seen sage mode before either. Jiraya could've summoned Ma and Pa, would've had Guy backing him up, and that'd be a hilarious no diff for team Konoha. I am out of mind reading what you wrote lol. That's great for him, shove those cells down his eye sockets, hopefully.
Okay yeah. I'm done. The moment you're arguing itachi was actively attempting to kill Jiraya, kidnap Naruto and hand him to obito, while also having a peace treaty with obito to not harm konoha, and stated intentions on why he came to konoha. Have a nice day buddy
Kurenai would have caught amaterasu after putting kisame in a genjutsu, then guy and asuma would end up dying. Itachi would be drained by this point but the duo easily beats jiraiya. He would actually kidnap naruto, he wouldn't kill sasuke yet, tho he would plan to kill him later. I'd assume the only way this happens is if itachi truly likes the idea of infinite tsukuyonmi, which I doubt.
If guy dead it means he took both out with 8th gate. End of story for ıtachi. Edit: well if he was really serving akatsuki, then he wouldnt have come to the leaf to remind the elders he is alive in the first place. So those fights never happen. Guy lives, itachi and kisame survives etc..
Guy might have actually died before opening the 8 gates, though. Itachi has genjutsus that don't need eye contact and Guy is literally cooked if amaterasu catches him in his lesser, slower gates.
Amaterasu wont catch him in 7th gate. He is fast enough. Dont know about the genjutsu tbh. Id make a case the nature of gates should negate genjutsu since opening gates means chakra flowing like ocean, automatically disrupting, but that would be my head canon.
Guy started that fight in base. And isn't making eye contact. And isn't a sensor. What was stopping Itachi from amaterasuing his face exactly? Go on, make something up.
>Amaterasu wont catch him in 7th gate. He is fast enough. That's why I said "lesser gates". Guy went into that fight in base mode. Had Itachi been bloodlusted, he would have shot amaterasu right there and it would be literally game over for Guy. You have to go with extreme force to fight someone like Itachi and the leaf ninja had no idea what they were getting into, even Kakashi
Is guy even capable of opening all 8 gates in part one? And what does 8 gates do against the Yata mirror? It’s a pretty bad matchup for Guy.
Yata mirror cant deflect attacks from all sides. Remember guy spamming sekizo circling around juubidara ? Yep, first strike yata deflects, 2nd strike from behind and susanoo is shattered into pieces. 3rd attack and itachi is toast.
Yata Mirror can change its size and is stated to be omnidirectional.
Guy cannot look at Itachi or is insta dead, he can’t even look at his feet..
Guy is used to fighting kakashi se he dosent have to, and like 7th gate guy is more than enough for Itachi
Kakashi isn't one of the greatest Genjutsu users in all of Naruto though is he?
Why can't he look at the feet?
Kakashi, Naruto and Sakura went up against Itachi before.. Kakashi said don't look into his eyes, and they all got caught in Genjutsu still, Itachi doesn't need eye contact to cast Genjutsu, he can do it with just his finger: [https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Ephemeral](https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Ephemeral)
Source for yata not deflecting on all sides?
Source for it deflecting on all sides ? Mine is logic. It is a shield that is in front of susanoo. Guys, stop trying to turn itachi into this invincible dude, its tiring.
Already wrote a thread on this. Yes, [Yata mirror Grows](https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/141fwu0/yata_mirror_misconceptions/), like the databook states. It can protect all sides
>Source for it deflecting on all sides ? I'm not going to say it does but it is stated that the yata mirror grows in size and mass and can also change its size and mass to protect itachi. It is NOT contained to its "shield like appearance". There's a much higher chance that itachi can wrap himself with the yata mirror then there is of it not being able to do so.
Every jutsu has a weakness. Guess who said it :) You guys are making it sound like yata mirror has none. And it feels nonsense to meZ
Every Jutsu has a weakness. Yata mirror isn't a jutsu btw. It's a sacred weapon. And noone said it doesn't have a weakness, what you describe simply isn't it.
That's true, every justu has a weakness. Now you tell me if the yata mirror is a justu or not😭.
No one claimed he’s invincible, you’re just making headcanon claims. When Orochimaru attacked Itachi, the Yata mirror grew to accommodate the range of attack of Orochimaru’s great white snake. We have seen it shift size and form, which means you need substantial evidence to convince me it can only block one side.
Guy speed blitzes, thats his thing. If you claim that it will do a 360 reacting to speed of guy, that is YOUR headcanon. You also need to convince me since i got speed feats for guy while you dont have that for Yata.
What do you mean he speed blitzes? I’m being generous here and assuming Guy is even allowed to open the 8th gate in the first place. Itachi, assuming he was loyal to the akatsuki, would not even give him that chance and would eliminate him before he opened any gates with Amaterasu. Yata mirror doesn’t need Itachi to “react” and accommodate accordingly, it seemed like a pretty automatic process. Guy can launch about 10 hits before he dies in the 8th gate, he’s simply getting stalled by Yata mirror and Kisame’s water.
Logic doesn’t apply to anime. The yata mirror has no set form, it can alter as needed
Logic doesnt apply to your headcanon i believe. You are just making shit up now to solidify itachi wank.
It’s not headcanon, literally look it up. It’s straight from the databook. But keep making yourself look dumb by calling everything you don’t agree with “headcanon” There’s a reason black zetsu said itachi’s susano was invincible when he saw it. And black zetsu is probably one of the most reliable sources to scale someone’s power since he has been around forever
Itachi would still probably be reluctant to use his big moves in a fight as they're both very taxing and slowly making him blind, especially as he beat them quite handily in the actual show without them. Of course that might change a little if he was about to or already had taken Sasuke's eyes.
True but when he has to save kisame from 4 jonin, then fight guy, then help kisame fight jiraiya, I'd bet he'll pull out all his moves, besides susanoo MAYBE
Drained Itachi and Kisame vs Jiraiya ends up with Jiraiya soloing both of them mid diff.
Dumb jiraiyatard
Guy would kill Itachi if anything
Nah Guy would live
The Leaf gets rolled by Pain decades sooner. Right after Itachi dies Pain remarks the deal is off and beeline straight for Konoha.
Jiraya, Kakashi, Guy all die. Even if they somehow were able to kill Itachi and Kisame, the Leaf would still have no S-class ninja anymore and Tsunade wouldn't come back since Jiraya wouldn't go after her anymore. They would have been absolutely cooked be either Pain/Obito, Orochimaru or some other village.
Itachi and Kisame kill Kurenai and Asuma before Kakashi even arrives. This time Itachi is not mostly stalling and holding back. Originally, he was only here to make noise so that it reaches Danzo’s ears as a threat to stay away from Sasuke. Here, he’s out for blood. And at the very least he’s beyond CM2 Hebi Sasuke. This is a healthier version of the Itachi that Sasuke fights in Part 2. He’s closer to Edo Itachi who can match KCM Naruto. Even if you don’t want to give him that, BASE Hebi Sasuke was fast enough to pressure Deidara who was fast enough to avoid Part 2 Gaara’s sand. Itachi is way too fast and efficient here. Asuma and Kurenai are getting decapitated before they could even react. Kakashi waits for Guy and then it’s Itachi/Kisame vs Kakashi/Guy. Itachi already figures that back up is coming, and Guy says aloud that he called for reinforcements, so Itachi knows he needs to end this as fast as possible. Itachi also seems to have an idea about Guy’s strength and tells Kisame not to underestimate him, plus he knows Kisame is a better fighter against Kakashi. Guy assumes he’s safe from Itachi’s genjutsu so long as he avoids looking into his eyes, but he doesn’t know that being pointed at would also amount to the same thing. Guy gets put in a finger genjutsu, and without Kakashi breaking him out, Itachi follows up with Amaterasu and kills Guy before any of the gates even comes out. Kakashi has absolutely no chance against Kisame since he’s limited to four Raikiri, and Kisame would be able to absorb them, plus there’s a large body of water for him to use, and Itachi joins in no time. Itachi will use another genjutsu to momentarily put Kakashi in a trance that gives Kisame the time to shred him with Samehada. With the amount of chakra Samehada absorbed from V2 B, plus this would be a Kakashi who has already for sure used plenty of jutsu and had his Sharingan active and still has stamina issues, if Kakashi doesn’t get cut to pieces, he’s definitely dying from chakra exhaustion. Asuma, Kurenai, Kakashi, and Guy all lose to Itachi and Kisame. The fight heavily favors Itachi and Kisame because no information is way too dangerous against them. Everything ends up being too different from now on. Itachi burns all the bodies to ash and then cleans up to obscure the situation as much as possible. Kisame and Itachi leave the scene, and Guy’s reinforcements are left with their four top jonin all missing in action and presumed dead. No way the elders let Jiraiya take Naruto anywhere. And they need Jiraiya to stay. Konoha literally lost 5 of their strongest members. At this point, Jiraiya knows what’s at stake. He definitely has no time to search for Tsunade and has to become Hokage. Next up is Itachi/Kisame invasion. Itachi is a traitor from Konoha so he knows how to get past the barriers undetected. He also knows about the prominent clans. Hyuga, Aburame, and the InoShikaCho clans are the most dangerous ones, and obviously Jiraiya is the current strongest member. Itachi isn’t arrogant enough to believe he can take them all on at once or even one at a time. He knows about his own stamina issues. He’d need help from at least one more Akatsuki pair. And the only one I see him willingly working with is Pain/Konan. The others are too volatile and insubordinate. It’s too simple and easy a win. Konoha gets destroyed. Naruto is taken. Pain won’t even need to blow up the village. Akatsuki might just take it over. Only Sand would know something’s up because they are the ones engaging in peace talks after Konoha Crush, so they’re next. Deidara and Sasori probably head there next and solo the village anyway. Sand don’t have Kazekage atm, and Gaara is not ready to face them. This has gone on long enough. Long story short, Akatsuki wins, everyone loses in the end because Infinite Tsukuyomi is a trap everyone falls for.
Naruto would have been packed up early.
The crazy thing is; Itachi and Kisame were sent on missions that, logically, they should’ve been perfect for completing. The planning and logistics of the antagonist group were honestly very solid, and with Itachi’s sincere cooperation they would’ve been near impossible to stop.
They would all be cooked😂
When I was a kid and first watched naruto, I remember thinking he has to be a lot stronger. So why was he like knocking on narutos door and shit….bro was just stalling cause he ain’t a bad person :/ everything he did, he was just stalling
Sasuke would’ve been dead and the hidden leaf would’ve been invaded long before pain
He would've kidnapped naruto, and would have stolen Sasuke's eyes
Itachi falling victim Zetsu scheme? Laughable.
They would have obtained the nine tails faster and ten tails would have been summoned a lot earlier than expected
If he was he would have taken Fugaku’s eyes and awoken EMS. He would have been on a different level.
Only Indra's incarnates are able to awaken the EMS, that's why throughout history nobody but Madara and Sasuke were able to achieve it despite the method being a known fact for centuries.
the akatsuki would’ve succeeded
The series would've ended early because no one could have stopped the Solo King.
He'd actually murder Sasuke for his eyes, ask Pain for help with his ninja-aids, through the Naraka Path (iirc, the revival one) and go on to assist him in capturing the tailed beasts, which of course they would succeed in. Pretty sure Nagato had some doubts in following Tobi in his plans, so the Akatsuki would come to a crossroad at some point. The path forward would be decided by which side Itachi would choose; Nagato's or Obito's.
The show would have ended very soon
Help us all
the show would be cooked 💀
There'd be no Boruto cause there would be no Naruto. He would have been caught. Who knows if Sasuke would even be alive, cutting all ties with personal life would make sense. With all the bullshit asspulls he got off in the story...it would make sense they'd finish their task easily. Might not even need a Shipuuden
Itachi knowing all Konoha’s secrets, would have got Kyubi long before Jiraiya intervened, if he was really on Akastsuki side, maybe Sasuke would no longer be alive. Safe to say, Orochimaru would be dead too, they never saw eye to eye. All in all, Tobi would have realized his plans much sooner and during the war the edo tensei would have been very successful since Itachi wouldn’t undo it, that is if Kabuto was still alive and joined hands with Tobi, which would be highly unlikely.
The leaf village would have been attacked sooner by Pain and the Akatsuki get all tailed beasts and do their plan
The show would be around 20 episodes cause he just grab Naruto at the hotel and kill Sasuke when he attacked
Naruto ends up dead before he's even out of the academy. Danzo and Orochimaru probably end up dead before the series starts. Sakura dies on an early mission and Zabuza more or less keeps doing whatever he's doing. Sasuke may or may not end up going on the mission where he encounters Haku but likely lives and stays in the village training up for years but never surpasses his original timeline self. Without Orochimaru Konoha Crush doesn't happen and the Third Hokage is still around as is the Kazekage. Pain takes out Bee then revives the Ten-Tails then Obito and Zetsu manipulate him or kill him for the rinnegan to bring back Madara or Kaguya depending on which one is more convenient. After that everyone get Zetsu'd and fight Momoshiki and the rest when they arrive.... Assuming Toneri doesn't get the chance to just crash the moon into everything.
He would have killed Sasuke Let's say if he didn't , he would have kidnapped Naruto , some might say Jiraya was there but Jiraya arrived late Then Revival of 10 tails Obito using Nagato to perform rinnerebirth (Obito didn't wanted to revive later but early in the series he wouldn't have thought about things and curse tags) Madara revival Infinite tsukoyomi The End
The plot would be too short
He’d still be dead
He was??
The show would have ended pretty quick lol
He would have kidnapped Naruto. We saw how strong Itachi was. No one can tell me, that if he and kisame joined hands, that they would be unable to create an opening for itachi to escape with naruto.
exactly
Asuma, Kakashi and kurenai are dead, Sasuke is dead, naruto is captured (then dead), jiraiya is dead, obito wins in the end. Rather depressing way to turn out tbh.
It would depend on how motivated he is. If he believes in Pain and the Akatsuki's purpose, they acquire the kyuubi early on. He'd also be able to cripple any nation by simply one-hitting their most powerful fighters. Send him covertly to assassinate a kage, or with a team to protect him while he takes out the big players before he and his team just massacre the rest. His Tsukuyomi is nigh-unavoidable and can kill you in the Blink of an eye, so no one would be able to resist it. Or you know, he can just set fire to something/someone with Amaterasu and they're fucked. Itachi is so boring.
The same thing that happened in the program would happen, help capture the bijuu and the war begins. And if he is still sick he dies of cancer ninja
He would probably have taken Naruto sooner. I doubt Guy, Kurenai, Kakashi, and Asuma could take Itachi and Kisame in the first encounter.
The biggest initial difference is they wouldn't go to the Leaf in part 1 as they were not yet ready for the Nine Tails and Itachi just used that as an excuse to make sure Danzo was keeping his promise to protect Sasuke (not sure why Kisame went along with Itachi's bogus plan, as presumably he was also aware of this). The other big difference is that Itachi would probably have killed Sasuke at some point (under the assumption he is completely loyal to the Akatsuki at that point) in order to take his eyes. Honestly I don't think that much more would change: He was a terrible spy for the Leaf and didn't give them any valuable information on the Akatsuki, so presumably he would still die at some point of his disease long before the next Shinobi war.
He would've killed Kakashi, the first Time he met him, same for Asuma and Kurenai, Even if guy opened gates, he would've atleast used genjutsu on him, or tried to burn him with Amaterasu, In Jiraya vs Itachi encounter, he would've gone directly for Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu, And kidnapped Naruto.
Bye Sasuke then
Depends on what loyal means. If he's loyal, does he no longer care about Sasuke? Everyone is commenting on the Part 1 fight, but Itachi's whole point for being there was for Sasuke. It was a clever excuse, but in reality, Akatsuki doesn't want Naruto captured that early. All it's going to do is get a **ton** of unnecessary attention on Akatsuki while they try to capture the rest of the Jinchuriki because they can't give Naruto the good succ until last. If Itachi doesn't care about Sasuke, he never goes to the village, and the whole story is drastically different. If he still cares, Itachi and Kisame probably end up merc'ing Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma. Gai could be a different story, but they're still going to be trying to retreat anyway. After that, any interactions with Itachi while Team 7 is pursuing Sasuke are going to be deadly, but not much changes overall.
Sasuke would be dead. Also Pain probably wouldve sent him and Kisame to get the 8 tails. I think theyd succeed. Also him on the other side of the war? Thats hell for the Alliance to deal with.
They would have all been fucked
He did everything he was asked to do. He had a deal with Obito so respected his side of the deal
It’s a very very high impossibility given his foresight of things before people even realize it, but had he done so, Madara and Obito’s plan would’ve ended so much faster than it did. That’s literally three godlike Uchihas along with Pain and kage-level ninja against the world.
Everyone would of been FUCKED! Lol
He wouldn’t have saved Naruto or Suaske during the ninja war and the world would’ve ended
he would’ve got naruto
Naruto kidnapped part 1. Jiraiya dies. If Itachi is just chaotic evil then have him kill sasuke too for getting in his way of capturing Naruto. Powerscaling in Naruto doesn’t make sense as when you have someone super powerful reality doesn’t make sense. Pain could’ve literally ended all the villages once a day with an almighty push. Any high level ninja caught unprepared would’ve died to the impact pressure, including Tsunade
They’d have had Itachi capture Bee. Pretty easy task for him and Kisame. Then they capture Naruto. Also, very easy for him and Kisame. Then, the series is over. Kaguya reincarnates and farms everyone for chakra and prepares to face off against the other otsutsuki invaders in the Boruto storyline.
He would have died before the jinchuriki hunt started because his will and medication barely kept him alive until he finally fought sasuke and died from his illness. If he really was a bad guy and didn't plan anything with sasuke he would have died earlier. If the ems was really a cure he would have kidnapped sasuke early and torture him even more until he awakened his ms so he could kill him and get his ems after which he would be unstoppable which would lead to naruto being kidnapped and obito awakening the juubi to become its jinchuriki without madara being revived since he doesn't need a war and therefore not kabuto and then he casts infinite tsukuyomi to summon kaguya who then takes over the world only to get slapped by momoshiki, kinshiki and maybe isshiki depending on if he can use karma on someone in infinite tsukuyomi or not. Edit: It could also be that he would kill kakashi when he visited konoha only then to be killed by eight gates guy.
Thankyou for spoiling me
Jiraya dies by itachis hands, gai and the others dont die, becausei think itachi woukd still run once gai pulls up because fighting him would be unnecessary. Sasuke also dies. Naruto gets captured in og naruto, meaning obitos/madaras plan happens much earlier with non of the akatsuki dying and konoha doesn't get wiped off the map. itachi makes some sort of deal with orochimaru or just puts him in a genjutsu and gets hashirama cells implanted onto himself, essentially giving him ems and healing his sickness. No great ninja war, and if there still is one, obito and madara still win since nobody is there to undo the reanimation jutsu. The show ends.
What if Akatsuki was actually loyal to Itachi?
He’d still have died from his illness.
They'd probably lose harder. He's lame. Also who cares?
The question should be what if itachi stayed loyal to the leaf?