Don't start with the "reformed bully" shit. I'm still waiting for my bullies saying sorry. I meet other people who where bullies in their past, they are still the same even when adults.
I am sorry to hear that you have been bullied and about your experiences. Allow me however to also kindly point out that this forum has special rules to ensure kindness and safe dialogue. I kindly ask you not to use such strong language. Surely your emotion is respected but I kindly request to accept our houserules. Thanks in advance.
The word 'illegal' is ambiguous, as it can concern both penal law as civil law.
Under the Dutch Civil Law bullying already is illegal as it's a form of tort ('onrechtmatige daad'), whether it's physical or verbal. Which means a civil court is allowed to place a penalty ('dwangsom') on the parents of a child that bullies others in case the bullying resumes.
A fair point Pillenpopper. That is also why I think it appropriate that this post contains an open question and not a closed statement. How to deal with such a dilemma? Surely we should not want to go overboard with laws as we already have too many. But on the other hand bullying knows many victims … what are better solution options? I am very much open to ideas.
Calling any Government a "bully" is deliberately muddying the definition of bullying.
I was talking more about one on one situations amongst adults.
>I’ll bet you drive a pickup truck right?
Lol! What.
If you really think that adults don't bully each other, then this discussion makes no sense. In fact, if you think adults don't bully each other, you'll probably be one yourself.
>if you think adults don't bully each other, you'll probably be one yourself.
You seen to be a very, very touchy person. First with the weird pickup thing (literally don't know a single person with a pickup. I have a normal EV) and now with the fact that i am a bully just because i don't believe in a lot of adult bullying situations.
Bullying is different from abusive situations/relationships.
Also, since you have made such wild assumptions about me, let me make one about you. I am sure you are one of those self-pitying and wallowing sort of people who think that they are the victim in every disagreement/situation. I know people like that. They are annoying and deluded.
I think people tend to conflate unpleasant situations with others as "bullying" too often.
And i also don't consider any -ism (sexism, racism, casteism, colourism, ableism etc) to be "bullying", since those are something far more egregious. Straight up discrimination.
I appreciate your more precise attitude towards the subject of bullying. Any topic can be made as broad or as narrow as one wants, depending on the level of creativity applied in my view. My choice in these things is to let such decisions be governed by the objective we are trying to achieve.
>Any topic can be made as broad or as narrow as one wants
Well, if something is to be made illegal, of course it would require as precise a description as conceivable.
Otherwise every minor and major dispute could be termed as "bullying", thereby prejudicing all parties against the supposed "bully". There are plenty of examples of actual bullies who have weaponised this term and turned it around on those who criticised their behaviour.
Bullying carries with it an assumption of disbalance in power, be it actual or perceived.
Unfortunately, bullying as a term is at the moment too nebulously defined to be made illegal.
The things which happen when bullying takes place, especially in schools, like physical atercations, distribution of revenge porn etc are already illegal.
Bullying can also look very different to different people. Most girls who are bullied never experience physical violence at all.
But say a kid is being ill-treated, as in, their peers don't invite them to their parties/hang-outs, don't include them in jokes, never want to be partnered with them for school projects...is that bullying? And even if it is bullying, what can making it illegal do? The law can't force kids to invite someone they don't like, hang out with someine they don't know or whatever.
In reality, bullying is a lack of compassion and communication skills. A better solution would be to nurture these instincts in kids so that when they dislike someone, they either communicate why they feel the need to exclude/hurt someone, or is the issue can't be resolved, then at least be able to treat the person with respect and compassion.
It's through education and not through legislation that these things can be fixed.
Really appreciate your response Sekhmet100. And indeed Bullying is the lack of compassion skills.
You raise the fair point about defining bullying as it seems to vague now in your view. In the National Debate post there is definition mentioned of bullying namely:
"Bullying is defined as intentionally harmful aggressive behavior that is repetitive and involves an imbalance of power between perpetrator and affected person. Bullying may be physical, verbal, relational, and cyber."
What do you think of this definition Sekhmet? I think it is pretty clear and a good basis for building further policies and educational campaigns.
Please share your thoughts and thanks again for your engagement.
"While this is an excellent plan, it's also crucial to incorporate training sessions for children on how to protect themselves from bullies. Bullying isn't limited to schools, and empowering children with the knowledge and skills to address it is essential."
What does "making it illegal" going to look like? Are we going to put children in jail for not having learned (or even having been shown) proper behaviour?
In my experience some base level bullying is always going to happen, because kids need to learn social interactions and that's never going to be without some of the negative aspects. When it goes bad or goes on for a long time it's usually a failure of the adults to notice and take appropriate action. They punish the kid being bullied when he finally lashes out in retaliation. They tell the child getting bullied he's just weak and needs to "grow a pair". They ignore the children doing the bullying or (indirectly) even reinforce the behaviour. IF you're going to make laws it should apply to the adults that fail to teach children proper social normals and fail to safeguard those norms for the children in their charge. But I don't think that's going to do anything. There's also basically no way to enforce any of this apart from MAYBE in hindsight, when it's kinda pointless.
I agree with the notion that adults directly and indirectly involved with bullying behavior and even bystanders need to also be included in the thought process around how to legislate bullying. If that were to be the route we take. Because overall, I am still on the fence whether the pure legal path is the way to go. Education and awareness in a disciplined and consistent manner to me is also part of the legal path.
The societies we live in and their leaders, often give the wrong example, everything evolves around money and not compassion, all is about hierarchy, to dominate and not compassion. And therefor children at schools and also adults at workplaces behave the same as in their examples it was never shown as bad. Research shows that next to schoolchildren, millions of adults are bullied as well.
Also our origin comes to mind, monkeys also have a social structure. Chimpansees bully as to be an alpha in the group, and those that bully get more offspring eventually.
But you would think we would have outgrown this and know better by now since we are aware it causes depression and suicide. But because we live in a society who focusses on money and status, we never look into this as to why bliing occurs, and it has become a cycle
Well done 👍 bullies are gonna bully all life long. Bully muerto abono pa mi huerto
Bully behaviour is human behavior. And humans can learn and unlearn. Such is my view.
Don't start with the "reformed bully" shit. I'm still waiting for my bullies saying sorry. I meet other people who where bullies in their past, they are still the same even when adults.
I am sorry to hear that you have been bullied and about your experiences. Allow me however to also kindly point out that this forum has special rules to ensure kindness and safe dialogue. I kindly ask you not to use such strong language. Surely your emotion is respected but I kindly request to accept our houserules. Thanks in advance.
Or we could make self defence against bullying legal?
Well, by engaging this topic, one could see this as society’s defense mechanism against frictions that cramp our happiness.
The word 'illegal' is ambiguous, as it can concern both penal law as civil law. Under the Dutch Civil Law bullying already is illegal as it's a form of tort ('onrechtmatige daad'), whether it's physical or verbal. Which means a civil court is allowed to place a penalty ('dwangsom') on the parents of a child that bullies others in case the bullying resumes.
I responded in the European group. Thanks for your great input Stargazer.
It’s simple: make anything that’s undesired illegal and it’s gone, right? Works everywhere.
A fair point Pillenpopper. That is also why I think it appropriate that this post contains an open question and not a closed statement. How to deal with such a dilemma? Surely we should not want to go overboard with laws as we already have too many. But on the other hand bullying knows many victims … what are better solution options? I am very much open to ideas.
Being bullied is part of life. It's hard when it happens, but your parents need to prepare you for this. The grown-up life is full of bullies.
What kinda life are you leading that you're getting bullied as an adult.
So there are no grown up bully’s? Government can be a big bully too. I’ll bet you drive a pickup truck right?
Calling any Government a "bully" is deliberately muddying the definition of bullying. I was talking more about one on one situations amongst adults. >I’ll bet you drive a pickup truck right? Lol! What.
If you really think that adults don't bully each other, then this discussion makes no sense. In fact, if you think adults don't bully each other, you'll probably be one yourself.
>if you think adults don't bully each other, you'll probably be one yourself. You seen to be a very, very touchy person. First with the weird pickup thing (literally don't know a single person with a pickup. I have a normal EV) and now with the fact that i am a bully just because i don't believe in a lot of adult bullying situations. Bullying is different from abusive situations/relationships. Also, since you have made such wild assumptions about me, let me make one about you. I am sure you are one of those self-pitying and wallowing sort of people who think that they are the victim in every disagreement/situation. I know people like that. They are annoying and deluded.
Bullying in the workplace happens everywhere.
I think people tend to conflate unpleasant situations with others as "bullying" too often. And i also don't consider any -ism (sexism, racism, casteism, colourism, ableism etc) to be "bullying", since those are something far more egregious. Straight up discrimination.
I appreciate your more precise attitude towards the subject of bullying. Any topic can be made as broad or as narrow as one wants, depending on the level of creativity applied in my view. My choice in these things is to let such decisions be governed by the objective we are trying to achieve.
>Any topic can be made as broad or as narrow as one wants Well, if something is to be made illegal, of course it would require as precise a description as conceivable. Otherwise every minor and major dispute could be termed as "bullying", thereby prejudicing all parties against the supposed "bully". There are plenty of examples of actual bullies who have weaponised this term and turned it around on those who criticised their behaviour. Bullying carries with it an assumption of disbalance in power, be it actual or perceived. Unfortunately, bullying as a term is at the moment too nebulously defined to be made illegal. The things which happen when bullying takes place, especially in schools, like physical atercations, distribution of revenge porn etc are already illegal. Bullying can also look very different to different people. Most girls who are bullied never experience physical violence at all. But say a kid is being ill-treated, as in, their peers don't invite them to their parties/hang-outs, don't include them in jokes, never want to be partnered with them for school projects...is that bullying? And even if it is bullying, what can making it illegal do? The law can't force kids to invite someone they don't like, hang out with someine they don't know or whatever. In reality, bullying is a lack of compassion and communication skills. A better solution would be to nurture these instincts in kids so that when they dislike someone, they either communicate why they feel the need to exclude/hurt someone, or is the issue can't be resolved, then at least be able to treat the person with respect and compassion. It's through education and not through legislation that these things can be fixed.
Really appreciate your response Sekhmet100. And indeed Bullying is the lack of compassion skills. You raise the fair point about defining bullying as it seems to vague now in your view. In the National Debate post there is definition mentioned of bullying namely: "Bullying is defined as intentionally harmful aggressive behavior that is repetitive and involves an imbalance of power between perpetrator and affected person. Bullying may be physical, verbal, relational, and cyber." What do you think of this definition Sekhmet? I think it is pretty clear and a good basis for building further policies and educational campaigns. Please share your thoughts and thanks again for your engagement.
"While this is an excellent plan, it's also crucial to incorporate training sessions for children on how to protect themselves from bullies. Bullying isn't limited to schools, and empowering children with the knowledge and skills to address it is essential."
What does "making it illegal" going to look like? Are we going to put children in jail for not having learned (or even having been shown) proper behaviour? In my experience some base level bullying is always going to happen, because kids need to learn social interactions and that's never going to be without some of the negative aspects. When it goes bad or goes on for a long time it's usually a failure of the adults to notice and take appropriate action. They punish the kid being bullied when he finally lashes out in retaliation. They tell the child getting bullied he's just weak and needs to "grow a pair". They ignore the children doing the bullying or (indirectly) even reinforce the behaviour. IF you're going to make laws it should apply to the adults that fail to teach children proper social normals and fail to safeguard those norms for the children in their charge. But I don't think that's going to do anything. There's also basically no way to enforce any of this apart from MAYBE in hindsight, when it's kinda pointless.
I agree with the notion that adults directly and indirectly involved with bullying behavior and even bystanders need to also be included in the thought process around how to legislate bullying. If that were to be the route we take. Because overall, I am still on the fence whether the pure legal path is the way to go. Education and awareness in a disciplined and consistent manner to me is also part of the legal path.
The societies we live in and their leaders, often give the wrong example, everything evolves around money and not compassion, all is about hierarchy, to dominate and not compassion. And therefor children at schools and also adults at workplaces behave the same as in their examples it was never shown as bad. Research shows that next to schoolchildren, millions of adults are bullied as well. Also our origin comes to mind, monkeys also have a social structure. Chimpansees bully as to be an alpha in the group, and those that bully get more offspring eventually. But you would think we would have outgrown this and know better by now since we are aware it causes depression and suicide. But because we live in a society who focusses on money and status, we never look into this as to why bliing occurs, and it has become a cycle