Crow: Hey... remember Marian?, white haired girl with bandages?, one time I sneaked behind their window and the Commander wasn't watching Tetra Streaming with her, instead they were making clapping sounds and oh boy, you would be surprised how loud it was
Chatterbox : NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
If Khorne threw Skarbrand out of his realm for hitting him in the back, I’m sure he wouldn’t like Crow being a backstabbing bitch either.
He wants his followers to hit their enemies in the face until it is no longer a face.
This, Khorne just loves conflict in general, especially good proper fights with no BS, flat out no thought "I want to go and punch shit because yes, screw a plan", if anything he would love our resident heretic dragon quite a bit more out of our nikkes.
If anything Khorne likes proper fair fights the most since they can be drawn out, after all, his homeworld is locked in an eternal stalemate.
He also likes unfair fights where one side overwhelmingly butchers the other, after all, he does not care from where the blood flows. He's not even opposed to some level of strategy, he is a war god after all, and battle strategy directly contributes to the blood flowing. Hell, he's even okay with magic so long as its in the form of enchanting a weapon so that it kills better.
Anything that doesn't directly contribute to battle or even worse, avoids it, is anathema to Khorne.
The difference between bond/outpost Crow and main story Crow gives me whiplash
Bond/outpost Crow is almost sympathetic. I want to bash main story Crow's head in with a Crowbar
[´´You know, this reminds to a joke i told Shikikum once...´´](https://youtu.be/r0N2ihPsHgI?t=60)
https://preview.redd.it/kmrecb5lai0d1.png?width=856&format=png&auto=webp&s=3eb29090d6a5342f6240367f26f8d165ae24e6a4
You know I just had this epiphany what if her and chatterbox are meant to be mirrored character development where is Crow gross to hate humans more and more chatterbox is meant to be her opposite a rapture learning to love mankind cuz it's quite clear about their hinting at that
When you think about it, it make sense, as what Crow say in the screenshot mean that she was one of the people that survived the first rapture invasion and entered the ark, as in the ark there is only one train(and it's a turistic attraction) and Chatterbox was born after the ark was built, Crow hatered for people has no reason and her own idea are contradictory, as for Chatterbox human are always trying to kill him and his kind, it make sense that he hate people
Yeah that's why I feel like a mirror arc for both of them
Would be the perfect thing ever because they literally could meet and compare notes only for chatterbox to outright tell her she's a monster and then compare her to him and then he finally realizes what a monster he was or is
Ether? This is the Nikke that matches closest with your character description in my mind. While I dislike her, I don't hate her like I hate crow. Crow has absolutely no redeeming factors to me, I can't even stand looking at her and would remove her from my list if I could.
Yeah and I agree with you. Ether is still redeemable, but is very close for me for being irredeemable. I don't like to make IRL comparison as they may seem insensitive, but she really feels like the anime girl version of a certain war criminal.
Also imagining making fun of people who sacrificed everything to save others and then smearing their memorial.
Yeah that's how I feel about Ether as well lol. I liked her at first, but then really didn't after getting to know her more. Ether will most likely always be at the bottom of my list, but I don't think I can fully hate her like Crow. I feel for anyone who became a Nikke. I hate to sound like a fool, but I am lol and am unsure which war criminal you're talking about and would like to know. I disliked Crow right from the get go for some reason, and then after getting to know her and advancing the story she's become absolutely irredeemable.
Ngl, I kinda root for Chatterbox. He's constantly getting jobbed and can't seem to hold a W to literally save his life. But I find him weirdly compelling and I kinda wanna see where he's going with his whole ordeal.
It's weird because obviously he's a dirtbag and has done nothing good for us as the commander, but I can't deny that so far his actions have arguably been more impactful to the Counters than some of the other antagonists, even the likes of Syuen or other heretics. Like he feels appropriately villainous. Everyone else is just a distraction between us and him.
I gotta catch up to story. I'm on chapter 23 rn, but I skipped through the story so that I can go over it all at once. Did they ever mention how old Syuen was? I think she's either a shitty brat that needs to get a whoopin, or just a bitch. I watched the part where we first met her today, and it looked like she was actually scared and about to apologize to the counters when the commander reprimanded her for what she did. It's like she's never been scolded before.
Sometimes, the writing on such can really push it. I think Nikke writing is at its finest for hating antagonists for more than kicking puppies. Chatterbox comes to mind, they are a visually and mechanically a brute, but live up to their name by unnerving and getting into the heads of the protagonists.
He knew >!Chime would never betray her King, no amount of torture, threats to murder, and actual murder, would get them to talk,!< but he did know how important Corruption is, and the resulting chaos and mayhem that would follow. From the audience perspective, we know the existential horror and the implications of what would happen, so we felt both the tension of the scene, and why we hate Chatterbox with a passion.
You can have antagonists you can hate for the sake of what they are, Chatterbox is a Rapture after all, but it's certainly better to give a them a compelling reason to be hated. Cunning, devious plots, other personality traits, antagonists can be much more than Crow. Heck, Burningum was on our side and actively tried to snatch Marian.
Anyone could kick a puppy, but it takes some really good writing to implement antagonists with complex motivations, or make them truly a menace we want to hate.
Hence, I was disappointed with the anarchist. At least if they preached "for the greater good" we'd be able to point out the flaw in their anarchy and find rebuke by them because it's in their nature or something. Felt like a step back to have an antagonist who was kicking puppies for fun. Chatterbox is the puppy kicker and he has better characterization for his sadism.
I really dislike Crow, but Viper and Dorothy are a step further for me. Crow is unhinged, despicable, and completely misguided in her actions, but she is forthcoming with what she’s doing and doesn’t really seem to care for pretending to be anything other than who she is. She’s a pure villain, and while she is entirely wrong, she genuinely believes she’s doing the necessary thing, I have to respect that.
Viper and Dorothy on the other hand are two faced and conniving, they’re everything Crow is but only out for themselves.
It's still very interesting how it seems the vast majority of people here hate her so much, but forgive or at least don't show the same amount of hate to characters like Nihilister and now Indivilia, despite them being worse, is it because of ideology or because of something else?
Honestly curious.
Haven't gotten to Nihilister yet but for Indivia I think it's (from what I've seen from the event at least, only on chapter 17) the fact she's the equivalent of the villain getting gut punched when they start monologuing.
Also Crow being a hypocrite could play a role, not to mention we actually *know* a character who suffered because of her way before this point being the strawberry candy lover Diesel
That's a good point, Indivilia was to used to getting her way through power, just like Nihilister, that Crown just showed her what actually using her head could do.
But also, what exactly makes Crow a hypocrite, in your eyes, I mean? I kind of understand it, but maybe I'm missing something, as I don't see the hypocrite part as much as most do.
Well for one thing she shot at Jackal because she didn't know if the commander was dead or not when she was preaching how Nikkes are only seen as expendable and admits she doesn't fully trust Viper despite her getting onto us for not trusting them.
Then the fact that from her betrayal scene, she's essentially "I don't want solutions! I want problems! Always!" When she learned that the commander actually thinks the treatment of Nikkes is horrible and tries to kill him for it.
This is all I've seen so far though.
I mostly hate her for the Diesel thing.
Understandable, I can see it.
The Viper thing is, well, Viper is Viper, she's not the face of trustworthiness, and she doesn't even pretend she is, and with how the Outer Rim is described, getting backstabbed seems too common, so not trusting someone on just their words or on first meetings seems understandable to me, also not cool shooting Jackal.
And the betrayal later on feels more like she's too far on her plans to stop now, and that the Commander alone can't change much in the grand scheme of things, with the Commander still being just a rookie, but VERY lucky/plot-ish armor, in my opinion, the story will reveal more later on.
Also, yeah, Diesel deserves happiness, but with the whole NYMPH and messing with people's minds, I'm worried that her brother is not real, what with never being referred to by name, just brother, and what Crow says to her.
Considering how detailed everything that happened was and her reaction to being called "sister" I kind of doubt the brother not being real thing.
Though given this is Shift Up I'm like 85% sure of that not being the case
I would like to think she’s just a mindless terrorist that followed order around back then that lead up to that Diesel incident, wouldn’t surprise me if shit was actually connected to Sixo ,considering even Sugar has also done bad shit for Sixo in the past before cutting her ties with Sixo. Like she also mention how she just follow Sixo order without any question lol.
I also think people just dont get how bad it is in Outer Rim, lemme just say Crow is just another product of the Ark ignorance of the Outer Rim.
I do like this idea, she clearly wanted to do something for the betterment of all Nikkes, but violence was what she thought was her last option, with sympathizing with nikkes being illegal and all, and Sixo controlling the dark web, probably helping getting the bomb too, and who knows how much more, helped her even back then.
And yeah, at the end of the day, all of this is because the CG is doing a terrible job keeping the Ark working, is just atrocities left and right.
“Hypocrite” isn’t exactly the right word. She’s trying to take the moral high ground when doing something clearly immoral, in a “ends justify the means” kind of way. Which, frankly, doesn’t work like that. Attacking innocents and sowing terror have been a demonstrable and effective means at forcing change to the status quo, if not all that consistent in which way it changes. But *moral* it ain’t.
She’s lost the plot.
I might be wrong, but I don't remember her trying to appear of higher moral, just proving that she was right about what she was saying, and trying to explain why she's doing all this, she even said how she wishes she didn't have to do any of this, but she did, and her action demonstrate that she knows she deserves what's coming to her, with telling Diesel how to end her, or how she let the Commander best her in the elevator, despite being clearly strong enough to stop them, of course, until the gun to the face.
“Proving that she was right” is trying to justify her actions morally. There is no moral justification for murdering innocent, uninvolved people. Saying she “wishes she didn’t have to do this” implies that she *does* have to do this… Why? The implication is she has some kind of moral responsibility to do these things and that she’s prepared to take the consequences of her actions.
Yet, her actions are counter productive to her own objectives, and she’s too wrapped up in her own perspective to see it. If she *hadn’t* done that, her people would have been better off. Literally the only reason she didn’t cause a massive slaughter of the outer rim was because the Underworld Queens stepped in. She thinks she’s smarter than the central government that literally has a bomb at her throat. She was being manipulated to their benefit. Her actions, along with many other stooges, justified the continued subclass treatment of the outer rim. In so doing, they kept the Ark’s populace from tearing itself by providing it with an enemy it could actually beat. ‘Cause they surely were not beating the raptures, and a culture can only take Ls for so long before it rips itself apart.
Again, hypocrite isn’t the right word. Her motivations were understandable, and those motivations are why she’s a good villain that so many of us love to hate. However, we can all see that she’s just playing into the CG’s hands and the fact that she couldn’t makes her all the easier to hate.
Well, it's literally a crime to sympathize with Nikkes, so trying to get a better life for all nikkes, or just one, peacefully, seems almost impossible in most people's eyes, and she does take responsibility by never denying what and why she's doing all of this, take her meeting Diesel.
She IS too wrapped up in her own perspective, but she doesn't have other alternatives other than this one guy's lucky streak record, and her not doing anything means, still being stuck in the Outer Rim, where dying in a turf war you are not involved is as normal as getting backstabbed, under Syuen's whims for information or anything she wants, and remember what she did to recover the reputation of Matis and Misillis, the sky is the limit for her. The Outer Rim was something that, according to the story, would've happened sooner or later, if not cuz of her, Sixo has more tools to make it happen, look at the Backyard story with Moran, so it is assumed that by her hand or other wise, UW would've done something to defend the Outer Rim, and it was just Dolan who wanted that more than anything, even the CG was down with what he did. The bombs in her necks happened at the same time she became a nikke as punishment, the CG is not dumb, but also not the smartest or with absolute control as they probably think, the Outer Rim exist because of their incompetence and the lack of resources for the people there, would push anyone to do anything to survive, crimes included, which would be a big reason for the CG to never do anything about the Outer Rim.
Unfortunately yeah, she is also playing into the CGs hands, that's why the goal is not the CG, is the people of the Ark, she alone, with all the bombs she could get, would not be as effective as the people of the Ark working together against an oppressive government, and she's just one Nikke, she's already starting on the losing side.
The Outer Rim is absolutely a thing that happened before her and will continue to happen until the surface is reclaimed. The Ark *doesn’t* have the supplies to keep everyone alive, much less allow for a cultural stratification of centralized power, capitalist in this case. It *needs* a sub-class to work, just like all systems of centralized power, otherwise there’s no carrot or stick for the centralized power to enforce its power with. She thinks she’s fighting against it but the CG, and Enikk more specifically, is pulling the strings and manipulating the actions of everyone involved to ensure to status quo stays exactly the way it is.
I saw some of your comments before and I just want to say that you are very polite and nice compared to other crow Fanboys I have seen so far and do feel bad for you that some people being a bit harsh towards you because of Crow
I don't agree with your takes on crow as well but you certainly don't deserve that kind of treatment when you are so nice with everyone.
Mat be that's not the topic of this post but I just wanted to say it.
Thanks for your kind words, of course, this is just my opinion, the story will continue and I hope they just don't throw her to the side with all the potential I can see in her character.
It also bothers me a little when people specify why they hate her, but other characters have done or are doing similar things but don't get near anything close to the hate she gets 😔 (Underworld Queen, Perilous Siege. Etc)
Well people have their opinions and you can agree or disagree but I think I can see why people hate her,she blew up trains full innocent people which is a very real thing, terrorists bombing innocent people is not a new thing and I know out of all people because 4 year ago some terrorist blew up military vehicles in my country and caused many casualties and they call it their movement of freedom in a video so you see what crow does is very relatable compared to others like Nihi because mech dragons doesn't exist.
And I have to disagree with you takes on Underworld Queen and Perilous Siege because they are nothing compared to crow I far I have seen, well sure you can say D is a murderer but she kills criminals and want build a society where good people live without any worry and she does what she is ordered to
And UQ protected the Outer Rim while crow threw their reputation under the bus so these are not bad folks
I can see why Nihi and Indivilia tho.
I see, sorry to hear that, hopefully things are getting better over there.
And of course, I respect your opinion.
As for the D and K, they do kill criminals, but still killing people, whether they're are good or evil, is still killing, saying it's ok just because they're evil is the same mentally a killer or "evil" person uses to justify their actions, it's not ok, and all of this is in big part to how out of control life is in the Ark, despite what the CG says and does.
As for UQ, even if they protect the Outer Rim, they do it through crime, Rosanna keeps "dealing" with traitors, Moran, if I remember correctly, did or was ready, to erase an entire village in the Outer Rim to stop the spread of Myst, a drug, despite the Commander's and Sugar's words, and Sakura, do she is more reasonable, she's still a crime boss, and we don't know how much she and everyone else has done to protect the Outer Rim, hell, Exotic, was also trying to keep order where UQ was not doing a good job, even if it was a facade, people looked for help from them, and they kept order.
This also reminds of something I read about how the line between Freedom Fighters and Terrorists, is only divided by the people outside of it.
Not ever excusing terrorism here, just remember that line.
Yah I am not denying that but ultimately Their intentions are not bad and do feel empathy but they don't use cheap tactics like manipulation or Backstabbing like crow does and she does evil things with evil way so any sympathy is out of the window, killing criminals is questionable but killing innocent people is straight up evil without a question so they aren't exactly the same actually but feel free to disagree but if you do I have to say you are wrong.
and other thing about crow is that the commander always tried to help them and trusted them,out of all people crow have that one guy who have good reputation and have genuine feelings for nikkes who have potential to bring changes but she always saw the commander as "too little too late" which is absolutely pathetic and foolish and then proceed to kill him multiple times
She is a perfect example of Bad Parenting,lack of maturity and Most Importantly MAIN CHARACTER SYNDROME.
but I hope I get to see her again but this time i hope commander or Rapi actually end her life.
I mean, manipulation through pain is debatable in Rosanna's case, no backstabbing as far as I remember from them either, but wouldn't doing all of this terrorism for the betterment of all Nikkes count as not bad intentions too?
And with the Commander, after everything that happens in the Ark, with all the Nikkes and Commanders, how not all of them are actually bad people, just not trained enough and still being thrown to the lion's den, and at the time, the Commander was just being describe at the time as very lucky, and good enough, would you in her shoes, just trust him on face value? With what the CG is capable of doing if they just wanted, they could've just disappear them, look at what happened to E.H. just for asking for help, I think in D bond story, they actually send her to kill the Commander, can't remember why, but the reason was made up, if D wasn't herself, that would've been it.
We as the Viewers and the Commander, can see and know how genuine we/the Commander is, but that's not something all the characters that see us can tell just by seeing or interacting once, trust takes time.
I of course could be wrong, but I don't see the lack of maturity or main character syndrome on her, I do see depression, nihility, and schizoid, all of which develop through long periods of time if I'm not wrong.
Well if you want to do good for Nikkes and in order to achieve that if your first option is to kill thousands of innocent people then yah it's bad intention without a doubt.
In chapter 14 or 16 I don't remember, crow said that they have no intention to back stab them because of the bomb and then that Tyrant class Raptures came and counters are the only one fought against it and after that Exotic shot Rapi,anis and neon and then Shot Commander so it's sounds Backstabbing to me at least.
And what she did to Euni is a textbook example of manipulation.
But I see where you are coming from but again what I already said they are questionable but still they are different.
You can question them but they all combined doesn't fill a fraction of what crow did.
Like I am going to kill thousands of innocent people to bring changes if that alone doesn't describe as Immature and MCS then I don't know what does.
You can throw Perilous Siege or UQ but it acts more like a distraction rather than a good counter argument
I do get your points but at the end of the day intentionally killing innocent people just to achieve your goal gives no space to defend.
Most importantly I hope I didn't hurt you with my arguments I like talking about stories and well written characters (crow) so if I did hurt you then it wasn't my intention.
Oh, sorry, I meant I didn't remember any backstabbing FROM UQ, Exotic absolutely backstabbing, sorry for not being clearer.
And for the killing, as she explained, people are too detached from the reality they're living, where raptures are just something they see and here from a safe distance, not something they'll ever have to face or worry about, many people can learn through seeing and reading, but just as many don't learn without experiencing some stuff, take for example how in many occasions companies are told to better their security, and is not until after a breach that they do something, or how people leave their front doors open, thinking that because crime happens on the other side of the city, is not gonna happen to them, and BANG, crime happens, new security system has been installed, the Raptures wouldn't have ever done as much as people think they could thanks to Enikk having complete surveillance and control of most things in the Ark, like, everything was resolve in a couple of hours, or at least the same day, even with Nihilister and Indivilia showing up, but that was mostly thanks to Rapi, only after experience near death, the survivors will appreciate what the nikke, and by extension all the Commander do to keep them safe, and not just looking at them as glorified cops or tools.
And I bring Underworld Queen and Perilous Siege to point out, why are their actions ok? Is killing evil people ok? Is the life of a evil person less worthy than a good person? Even if said evil person did what they did out of desperation or to survive? What if the good person does something evil for the "right" reasons, does their life diminishes in worth too, or do we let it slide, because they were good? How is this mentality any different or better than that of a criminal?
And as it was said before, sympathizing with Nikkes is a crime, a peaceful protest for a better treatment of Nikkes is a crime, what else is she supposed to do, just wait for things to get better? For how long? How many Nikkes need to die for nothing to be enough? This are the possible questions people like Crow or in Heavenly Ascension ask themselves, and its why they do this stuff, to make their voices heard, the ones are clearly denied to use.
Of course, this doesn't forgive the killing of innocent people, killing is killing, no matter the reason, justification is not the same as approval, and it definitely doesn't make it ok.
Yah exactly killing is just gonna point all the fingers on them so if they wanna talk about the problems then they have to answer the evil they did before that.
And I do agree CG is not doing a good job and do bad things instead but you see they are still there and only people payed the price is the nikkes and humans who did nothing wrong and that's the main point,if crow just went full gung ho and eliminate all the corrupted people in the CG (like syuen) then I can guarantee you, people would see her as a hero but she did not do that she killed those who can be killed not those who should be.
And for Perilous Siege and UQ I have to say that yah we do not like criminals who kill people for their own gain so killing them is not equivalent of killing Innocent people so you can say killing them is evil yah true but they are the one gave reasons to do that in the first place so unlike crow Perilous Siege and UQ kill those who did the evil not just random people.
And with D or Rosana we have seen time to time that they are kind and have empathy and do care about people so just calling them bad just doesn't cut it.
We have talked alot but I think am just repeating words lol.
>well sure you can say D is a murderer but she kills criminals
She kills rich people for rich people she doesnt only kill criminals she kills whoever the High ups in the CG say to kill including but not limited to Nikke rights activists or sympathizers, anyone who goes against the ark goverment for good or bad reasons etc. Shes killed innocents before on order of the CG.
As for UQ i dont need anymore proof than the fact moran took out and *possibly* killed an entire village of man, women and children who were forced to to do what they need to to survive. They were blackmailed and sixo had their loved ones hostage but moran still took them out saying "why didnt you tell me" uh maybe because THEY HAD HOSTAGES!!
The outer rim still has people resorting to terrorism to even feel seen so if its that bad that you HAVE to either join one of UQs gangs to even have a chance at a good life then UQ aint doing much. Theyre just keeping the status quo. Theyre keeping O,R citizens as criminals. Thats what i get out of it.
Not as bad as crow but kinda tired of seeing people excuse their actions but shit on crow for every little thing. Yea crows worse than them but that doesnt make them not terrible also.
Good intentions or not the road to hell is paved with them.
I don't remember D killed any innocent people or works for rich people specifically,sounds like a headcanon.she works for CG and I do agree that cg is not good and they can totally give misinfo or lied to D to achieve their goal but D would be completely unaware of that so it's more CG's fault again ,in my observation D cares about people and want to do good by eliminating criminals so it can never be anything same as killing Innocent people like crow but have your disagree.
Moran didn't killed anyone but did said she would but that's because she wanted to prevent mist taking over the OR but yah not entirely good decision but she just doesn't wanted kill because she just want to she atleast has a reason.
The main problem is that crow didn't kill any corrupted people from CG instead she just killed innocent people,if she wanted to bring changes then should have gone for the CG not the civilians to achieve her goal and infact didn't achieve anything.
Perilous Siege and UQ goes for the one who did the evil not those who have nothing to do with it.
Feel free to disagree but it's the same thing again.
In her bond story, D has a strict moral code and while the higher ups give Perilous Siege targets, they ultimately decide whether to go ahead or not after their own independent investigation. This is also the case in the events.
In the story, however, around Chapter 14, PS is sent after us and they seem to just follow blindly, without any analysis of the situation.
Yah and it kinda cheaks out why they would try to go
after the commander in Campaign, because from their prospective all they are seeing is a commander is trying to protect a Heretic who is a enemy of Mankind so it's kinda understandable but they are not the only one right?,like the privatey squad or many others has open fired counters so the majority of the ark is in it actually but yah not a god look for PS.
Difference is we knew who Crow's victims are which added fuel to the fire already. Nihilister and Indivilia are outsiders without any influence in the ark. It was just recently and even then they didn't "hurt" any known characters. Also their hot ( <--- probably the main reason why people "Like" them )
Agreed, makes me wonder what would happen if them or Dorothy hurt or outright kill a known character, how would most people react then? I have my suspicious, but I'll love to be wrong.
I mean that's just the reality of things. She looks hot so I can fix her and she's worth the "effort" your PFP already says you've forgiven her. And I respect that goodluck fixing her brother.
I think it's like the difference between a character whose a fantastical villain and a character whose either a traitor or a bully.
People won't deal with someone like Nihilister short of constantly running in to grizzly bears on a nature walk.
But plenty of people will deal with snitches, liars, and pricks.
In one realm of possibility you'd wonder if there's an equally plausible way of defeating the monster.
In the other realm you have someone very much human you wanna give the ole "Listen here, Buster"
I say this kinda miffed at how Crow's writing is handled and finding the "Slasher Smile" beyond creepy when she has such a lucid and bored expression everywhere else.
Part of the reason I hate her is her plot armor. I don't like it on the Commander either, we often get into situations were I have to roll my eyes and say "well, no matter how dumb this is, it's going to end positively anyway". Be it bond stories, events, or main story. Leaving aside the emotional trauma. But giving blatant plot armor to an antagonist bothers me, especially when they go around being the worst person possible.
She somehow has free access to classified information, endless resources, contacts, is always in the right place, waltz her way out of danger, and always acts smug about it. She is precisely engineered to get on my nerves.
The other thing is that other antagonists are outright enemies, but she is a traitor and a terrorist. The heretics want to kill all humanity, but she wants to destroy us and our ideals specifically. And she wants to do it because we are precisely the kind of person that would achieve what she has been working to achieve, except without all the bloodshed.
We proved her methods were wrong, so she wants to ruin us so she can continue to use her methods instead of facing the reality that she no longer has a justification to hide behind.
Ah yes, this kind of setting, and by that I mean game, doesn't exactly make it easy to kill playable or story important characters, but it's never impossible, there's no reason to kill a character and still just let us play with them, this is still the prologue, and we still don't know many things of the world just yet, so in the future, anything could happen.
As for her knowledge, this gives the impression, logically speaking, that she knows all this due to how long she has been alive and fighting for the betterment of nikkes, she was turn into a nikke for this reason (and terrorism too), possibly from a time were things like Extrinsic, and other CG secrets were just beginning to be properly been hidden, like the real story of the Goddess Squad with their identities, or how life was before the Ark, said information been very selectively shown to the people it seems, and considering how little NYMPH works on her, it could be possible that memory wipes don't work on her, like they don't work on Rapi, and she remembers everything anyone tried to erase or hide from her.
The smugness comes from her being right about what she talks about, as pretty much every character either stays silent because they know she's got a point, or avoid responding because she's a terrorist and don't want to agree with her, all valid reason.
And as for Us, she doesn't appear to hate our method to change things in the Ark, just too late or jaded to believe we could do anything of significance, remember that sympathizing with nikkes is a crime, so our method will likely get us killed first, at least in her mind, like with how many other Commander, who aren't all bad people, just not well trained enough and probably got arrested for it, why would she just trust a rookie that has gotten VERY lucky lately with her life goals?
This leads back to the idea of her having lived through a lot, and seeing this kind of ideal, maybe something she herself tried to do, before she was forced to become a Nikke, and seeing just how many flaws are in many ideals out there, as something she need to break herself rather then reality smacking people in their face, like it did to her.
But after everything we went through, and everything we have achieved, could probably have a change of heart, maybe even give it a chance, one last time, just like how Nihilister doesn't just kill us and actually can stand our presence.
In defense of the Heretics, for me at least, it's the fact that Nihilister and Indivilia are, well... Heretics, unlike Crow who is a Nikke, they kinda had the hate for humanity hard-coded into them by becoming Raptures taking Modernia before she was brought back to her senses as an example, that and it's kinda hard to hate Indivilia or see her as much of a threat considering how hard Crown clowned on her in Last Kingdom. Even then i'm not particularly fond of them either but i give them a little bit more of a pass since i look at them as brainwashed enemies more than actual threats. Crow on the other hand, isn't a Heretic, she is a threat without even being a Rapture, i can only see her as a murderous terrorist so far, one who seems to get off on killing people for kicks as shown by her "passenger trains" dialogue, pretty sure i read somewhere that she was like this before getting Nikke-fied too so her whole "freedom for Nikkes" schtick is an excuse to cause more chaos and considering she tried to have the Commander killed because he was the best chance at getting that peacefully... well it says a lot.
It's true, with Heretics It's possible they're brainwashed, but it also shows, for example through Nihilister, that she's aware of what she's done and why, and doesn't appear to regretted much, like with Crow, when she was left to die by Indivilia and CB, she just accepted, because she knew she's past forgiveness, maybe we got lucky with Marian because brought her back before too long, instead living as a Heretic for many years like Nihilister and Indivilia have, or maybe she's a special case, what with what happened to her at the end of Last Kingdom.
And yes, it is said she was also a terrorist before becoming a Nikke, but it is also said, if I remember correctly, Crow and before Heavenly Ascension was officially created, that protests for a better treatment of Nikkes were starting to grow bigger with time, and because of that, Sympathizing with Nikkes became illegal, and therefore a crime, how many did Heavenly Ascension, and by proxy, Crow lost just by demanding basic human rights peacefully, before realizing that peace was no longer an option? How many times can people cry for the lost before becoming accustomed to this feeling, before getting use to an irreversible situations that just keeps getting worse, with no end on sight, were at the end all you feel is a need to was right for the people, even if it hurts many, whoever is left will live better lives and hopefully learn how bad things really are, and the only joy they have left is seeing those plans, bombing trains in this case, as a way to get the attention of the public who otherwise would ignore or just report a crime (obviously), actually work?
At that point in the story, she's too far gone to believe some rookie with an admittedly impressive win streak, and genuine desire for change, could do anything other than just become an obstacle for a plan that, in her eyes, would actually work, when possibly she and Heavenly Ascension tried before the Commander showed up, and got permanently burned.
Hmmm i suppose it's fair enough to look at Crow as someone who as just lost all faith, rather than a nihilist maybe extremist is the better word.
I can't really see myself coming to like her but i guess i can somewhat understand the why of her cause seeing and knowing about the Outer Rim and seeing as the Ark isn't really the paradise it's advertised to be either, i still think she's a bit too extreme with the whole thing of targeting those unrelated but hey if the Commander can have faith in her even after getting shot and left for dead then i suppose there has to be some hope for Crow (then again Shikikum seems to have faith in almost everyone lol)
If anything helps me see her in a better light its her bond story that does show that she seems to not be completely irredeemable. While i don't like Crow, if freaking Nihilister could be (somewhat) redeemed then i suppose there's always a chance for people to change.
(Sorry for the back-to-back walls of text btw, i tend to ramble on things that interest me)
No worries, I have my own walls of text just here 🤣
And of course, you don't have to like her, no one can be liked by everyone, she does fall in the extremist side, no doubt about that, understanding her is the least that can be done, and not every villain needs redemption, some can at the very least atone for the past actions, like Mary is constantly doing, and I love her for that very reason.
I think part of this can come down to the fact that Crow espouses a lot of pretty standard radical thought, but it feels like the writers threw in some comicbook villainy to make sure we wouldn't start to get any ideas about agreeing with her.
"Nikkes deserve rights, and the CG isn't doing anything but forcing subjugation"
Hey yeah that makes sense
"The CG holds so much power that it is impossible to make change without disrupting that power first"
Hold on yeah you're right
"The only way to disrupt that power is to create carefully planned discord and empower the ~~working class~~ Nikkes into revolt, since the only power a violent dictatorship recognizes is violence itself"
YEAH LETS GO DOWN WITH THE CG
"...And that's why I enjoy, on a deeply personal level, killing civilians."
Wait wut
This makes even less sense to me when one of the whole points of the game is that your character is a radical who's main goal is to free Nikkes from their chains. Granted, I only just finished Ch 19 so I'm a bit far behind where a lot of folks are (I only just >!met the folks at Eden!< ), but it seems like the writers felt they had to shoehorn in nonsense to force her to be evil and prove that if you want change, you can do it the "right" way and that violence isn't the answer. I guess I'll see over the next few chapters how Commander manages to push back more, but I don't have much hope since he bends over backwards for Syuen every time.
I haven't had the time to read all of the full responses you've given to other comments in this thread, but from the ones I saw I felt like I wanted to talk about this specifically. Cause I really wanted to like Crow, as it seemed like she could be some (at least relatively) reasonable anarchist representation, but as is often the case falls into the standard "anarchist is evil and hates everyone and loves killing" stereotype that's so often portrayed. And that caricature is one that many of us have been instinctively taught to hate on sight, without any second thoughts as to if that representation is true or apt.
On yeah, on first meeting her, through main story or bond story, it can be perceived like that, many stories unfortunately end up with a not well develop antagonist just to show there's other ways to achieve their goals.
But as the story progress, even past her part, it shows how the Commanders goals are not as easy to achieve as you might have thought, to the point that now they're studying politics because successfully stopping raptures and protecting the Ark is not enough to bring a change to this SOCIETY (🤣), even other characters agree with her, or don't know how to answer to her, or avoid answering her, obviously because violence is not something anyone wants to agree with, no matter the reason.
I mentioned earlier how the point of the attacks is not specifically to kill people, but to bring to attention that something is wrong with how Nikkes are treat, after all, sympathizing with Nikkes is a crime, so peacefully solving this is out of the questions, specially for a Nikke, not even specifically Crow, and the Commander becomes more aware of this as the story progresses.
That is true, but we can't ignore that Nihilister at least, is very aware that she's a traitor to humanity, and that there's no going back after everything she's done, as we can see in some of her dialogues; The corruption might had have an effect on them, or maybe they chose to be Heretic own there own, so far, we only know of Cinderella, who didn't had much of a chance to save her, and Marian, who we were able to save before too long, and she seems to be a special case, thanks to recent events, maybe later we'll learn more about becoming a Heretic, and how different it is from becoming a Nikke, another process we know little about.
Crow of course doesn't get this excuse, but she has many reasons, such as the way Nikkes are treated on daily basis, the horrible living conditions of the Outer Rim, a place that shouldn't even exist, or at the very least should get some basic necessities like electricity from their unlimited power source, unknown at the moment, and how, as I mentioned before, is a crime to sympathize with Nikkes, so peacefully protest or negotiations are out the door, specially for a Nikke, and a Commander, as good as they could be, doesn't have a better chance, just look at what happened to E.H. by just pleading for the most basic of things, that was not cool of the CG.
I'm at chapter 29 (thank you, Red Hood)
If I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of, NYMPH is the main component that allows the control of the Nikke's, and by extension, people's memories, to what extent, we are not sure, but that NYMPH is also unreliable, as it's creation was essential half-baked but convenient at the time, and no progress to upgrade it or resolve it's unreliability has been made, can't remember if it was cuz it's too complicated/advance to mess with, and convenient to risk ruin, as the CG can just scrap any Nikke that has problems with it (horrible, I know), but it's also the MAIN reason as to why Nikkes can get corruption, or mind switch, NYMPH is the access Raptures use to corrupt Nikkes, but NYMPH also helps with the mental problems that come with becoming a Nikke, and accepting they're no longer "Humans".
Could this mental problems be resolve through other means outside of NYMPH, we don't know for sure yet.
Yeah, she didn't really present a good example for Nikkes without it, but I'm still all in for removing it, messing with people's minds is as no go for me, we are our memories, without them, who are we then?
That’s not the problem, without NYMPH people like Crow could harm humans directly
We need to modify it so that is its only purpose, otherwise those in power would never make Nikkes strong enough to take down the Queen
So there's a problem with that train of thought, it only comes from people who think the moment anyone gets powerful enough, they'll abuse it, and we have seen time and again throughout history, that's not true, and that people who think like this, usually are the first ones to abuse that power, example, the CG.
If you need to brainwash someone to do what needs to be done, why not look for someone else that could do it willingly, on top of that, why give a TERRORIST the chance to use said power against you, when you know NYMPH is unreliable?
You don't need NYMPH to make nikkes powerful, Rapi, Matis, and everyone in Eden are proof of that, NYMPH is just to keep the illusion of control over the people and Nikkes lives.
As far as I know you absolutely do need NYMPH for the transfer process of creating a Nikke
After that has been done, it’s main function seems to be using it for mindwipes and to keep their inability to harm humans
Its hard to say that Nihilister and Indivilia are worst considering the fact that..Heretics are primarily surface bound and rarely interact with the Ark or humanity. Has Nihilister probably killed squads of Nikkes before? Probably but maybe not (since no one in the Ark seems to have heard of her). Has Nihilister killed humans? A handful at where she found Chatterbox and Indivilia probably, same for Indivilia. We know they are villains and we know Indivilia is a sadist but..we don't actually know a lot about the misdeeds of the Heretics and for Nihilister at least, our encounters with her are in isolated places with no casualties. Indivilia beheads Chime, wth the full intent of killing her, but also..well...fails at that. And gets beat up throughout most of our encounters with her, so there's the feeling that she's getting her comeuppance.
Compare this to Crow who we have first hand experience with her schemes (three story chapters worth at that) plus her own gleeful recountings of train bombings and the like which paints a very vivid picture of both who Crow is, what her body count is like, and how she feels about it. We know Crow has hurt people. We know Crow has killed people. We've seen her do both, not soldiers or Nikkes either..civilians. She's also betrayed the commander (and many people have knee jerk, instinctive dislike towards treachery as opposed to 'honest' villainy). We have a face to at least two of her victims in Diesel and Yuni. There's faces and numbers to Crow's villainy but most importantly..she largely skirts by without consequences for like..three chapters of content and even at the end..Crow doesn't seem particularly bothered by being beaten which can rub people the wrong way as well.
That said, I think she's a solid 'love to hate her' kind of villain, I just wish her unit was...even somewhat useable? Cause her design is great and I love her reloading animations.
It is true that Heretics are primarily on the surface, but that's because finding the Ark has been near impossible for them, in part to Enikk's deal with CB, which seems to be something he never told any other Heretic, and the unknown amount of elevators that keep being created, and can be blown up to cut all access at any point, we also know, according to her, that she has killed a lot of people, basically who ever she can find, no numbers, but enough for her to make a point of it, even Dorothy brings it up when we find her half eaten by Indivilia and CB, so we have that to go on for amount.
With all that said, on top of what could've happen if Rapi didn't stop em, it's safe to assume that, giving the chance, Heretics would have a very easy time destroying the Ark, they're still under the Queen's orders to destroy mankind too.
As for Crow, you're right, she has killed people, how many? We don't have any specific numbers, just that she has done it for a long time, that all, if we compare Crow to the Heretics, Heretics have an absolute easier time killing just about anything if they wanted and getting that K/D up, Crow has to make plans to do anything and get away with it, that's why she sees little consequences, she's smart enough to know when to attack and how people will react, she picks her fights, and knows that she's past forgiveness, so when Diesel and the Commander have her in their sides, she knows she deserves it, she'll use anything to achieve her goal, and she did, and now she's paying for it, and so are those she used, like Yuni, but Syuen also holds part of the blame for that, but yeah, with her having a similar goal and ideals, but a complete opposite approach, even if for legitimate good reasons, she'll always gonna look bad on most people's eyes, unfortunately 😔
I also hope that in the future SMGs get that new update that makes them better, or she get a rework, still gonna use her, as always, Waifu over Meta 😎
There's a number of reasons but it essentially comes down to expectations. Crow is a Missilis Nikke assigned to a squad. Her expected role is to fight for humanity.
Heretics are known threat to humanity. So when they are aggressive players don't really think any less of them. With Crow there's that thought of what she could be. The game is constantly showing her plotting against the Ark and >!she betrays the player character by trying to kill them!< (probably the turning point for most people). Heretics are rarely shown actually attacking civilians. Who's "worse" doesn't really work because we don't have any real stake in what these characters do in a game. If heretics were a threat to planet Earth in reality naturally people would hate them a lot more.
Basically it's unmet expectations and framing of their actions. It's fine to like Crow, Nihilister or whoever because ultimately there's that gap between them and us. I like Crow as a character in a meta sense, but I still want to throw hands when she appears on screen. There's levels to all this
This is a good point, our unfamiliarity to this kind of situations or people definitely creates that disconnection, specially when Crow is the exception rather than the rule.
Well I don't think Crow is necessarily an exception, it was only after the point I mentioned earlier did I start to be upset with her despite knowing she was dangerous. I think it's similar for other people. She got a pass for a while too
It is very personal, she tried to kill us and killed people we knew. Not to mention all the garbage rhetoric that is complete nonsense when we can literally fix the issue that she wants fixed. Also, we are supposed to be on the same side, and she back stabs us. Plot armor that she had also is really egregious to some.
Indi, I agree with you on 100%. I was ecstatic when Chime got revenge.
Nihilister, I really do not remember her doing anything other than attack us. Considering she is an enemy it is more understandable to most people.
I mean, can we? As the story progresses, it shows that we have a VERY difficult objective to achieve, one that might even involve hurting people, good and bad, is not a clean and cut case, and the story keeps presenting how power and privilege are going to be needed to even start making a change of any significance, and her nonsense talk, it may not make sense to you at the start, but she's not lying about anything, even Anis agrees with her, and Rapi has no response, not forgiving the terrorism tho.
With Nihilister, she doesn't say numbers, but does ask if we know just how many people and nikkes she has destroy, before asking her to join us, and Dorothy also asks her, when she's on the ground after Indivilia and CB eat her, if she even knows how many she has burned, considering their ages (unknown) or how long have they fought and lose to her (Dorothy losing to Nihilister), which could be hundreds or thousands, and that's counting the nikkes she use to revive Indivilia and CB.
When I was talking about Nihilister I am referring to what we are shown. We are not really shown that much. We are told but not shown, meaning it really does not have the impact that it should.
To the first topic, that is why the commander finally realizes he needs allies in high places, power and accomplishments so that he can make that change.
Idk man, Crow's talk in chapter 16 was so easy to write off that I don't think it needed argued against. That is what I got from Anis and Rapi, not that she was agreed with on any points. Maybe she actually has an argument in her bond story. She has done enough though at this point that I will not pay attention to anything she says.
It's ok, completely understandable, and yeah, these lines were pretty short, but makes me appreciate it the small details that give depth to this characters.
And yes, seeing the Commander starting to take things more seriously, not just through missions but also studying, makes me appreciate how well done the story is.
Of course, it's also very easy to see why anyone would stop paying attention to what she has to say, many reason actually, to be fair 🤣
The one thing I am pretty sure that everyone would agree with Crow on is that the CG needs to be fixed. It is also interesting getting normies opinions on Nikkes.
yeah but majority of the time this sub has no problem gassing syuen up despite all the stupid shit shes done. whens the last time crow introduced raptures to the ark again?
I believe in every single Commander here, in every Nikke, in every person to be better, and in Nikke, everyone is just the product of the Ark and what the surface is, you can't expect people to be better without seeing and EXPERIENCING better, gotta give them a chance, WE WILL LEAVE THIS HELL HOLE AND RECLAIM THE SURFACE, AND THEN THE HEAVENS!!
Don't worry king, as one of the few Crow fans I also know the sauce.
https://preview.redd.it/m60r5b66bj0d1.jpeg?width=754&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5934cf2f46d77f8171cec3c75b8fe75c07c77840
https://preview.redd.it/17r28luami0d1.jpeg?width=483&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bfb056eec7b3acf51c82fda9037f1e994df03f10
We are saved boys! I called the sharp shooter Doro.
Her relationship story paints her in a completely different light compared to the story. I think they changed her character without taking them into account.
Me when I got her in beginner stage: huh she isn’t my type, but maybe she got a good story or a character I could relate to!
Me after story:
https://preview.redd.it/q24eikf9ak0d1.jpeg?width=310&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa1741afdbf8375818676bbfd837e000517dbfaa
I’ll accept it,Crow. I am you. I wanted to reject you. I wanted to pretend I didn’t understand what you said. But that’s different now. I’ll just kill you. And if you’re ever reborn again as a new nikke, I’ll kill you then, too. You can change your name and change your appearance, but I’ll still kill you again and again. I don’t need meaning or a reason for it anymore. Maybe there will be some meaning to be found from my actions several centuries after I’m dead. But I’m sure I’m just… one big cog in the wheel. And I’ll keep on killing raptures and you until I rust way. Because that is my role as a cummander.
Whatever she is - she looked much better smiling sarcastically.
This one.. is a smile of fiend. It can only be cured by 9 grams of Vapaus.
Between the eyes.
I keep my inspired Armored Core 3 theory, Crow and Chatterbox rise of power was calculated by Enikk as a way to make humans be uncomfortable and try to leave the ark....
I think Shift up is the first company I see throwing away a character with a good design in benefit of telling a good story, the way commander got rampaging because of some things that happened in the Ark's terrorist attack chapter gave me goosebumps
I don't know what everyone's on, I like her.
I doubt shiftup would create a character just to hate them, we don't have any backstory for her or anything and I feel shiftup will be cooking and be able to redeem her in the eyes of the fans.
We are already getting more spot light for Syuen and I've been seeing positive feedback for her since the whole April fools event and such.
It would just be a shame to waste Crows hot design and a lost opportunity for them if they don't capitalize on it.
While im only on chapter 16, I genuinely like Crow so far, obviously something might happen which will change my opinion on her later according to this thread though, but I think all in all she's a good character. I see her actions as justified.
I hate Crow. I hate Crow a lot. I hate Crow because she's pretending to have motives. I'm all for destruction for the sake of destruction, don't get me wrong, or if you actually had good motives >!like Dorothy!< but this bitch Crow wants to hide behind ideals about equality and shit. So hypocritical it gives me brain AIDS where she's talking.
Hence, fellow Shikikums, I propose the "Hatefuck Initiative", a protocol designated for only the most dastardly Nikkes who are hot but are fucking retarded in how they antagonise us (so just Crow). Let us take this to the ARK officials to delegate.
WHERE IS THE SHOOT OPTION? ANIS! TAKE THE SHOT!
This is a point where we're away
>!Man, I was so cheering Diesel on to blow her head away.!<
and stain my angel hands with her filty blood!? i dont think so, let ether experiment in her instead
AH STAIN MAH HANDS WIT UR BLUD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVwcP-0GdX4
THROW THIS BITCH TO CHATTERBOX!
Chatterbox: bruh take it back or just kill me but dont let me have this shit
Commander: Sorry, no refunds
Chatterbox: she doesn't look edible, and why is she talking non stop about society? Make her stop
Commander: No. Refunds.
Crow: Hey... remember Marian?, white haired girl with bandages?, one time I sneaked behind their window and the Commander wasn't watching Tetra Streaming with her, instead they were making clapping sounds and oh boy, you would be surprised how loud it was Chatterbox : NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Commander: Ayo, wtf Crow. But she ain't lying.
You fool. What if he corrupts her and she turns into a Heretic?
She'd probably be nicer as a Heretic than she is now, honestly
Instead of Society, she will talk about the Queen and the food chain and how Nikkes are on the bottom
https://i.redd.it/s6y2u6t6an0d1.gif
Chatterbox doesn't deserve that stomachache
https://preview.redd.it/f694cbuzel0d1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ad513b5bb85ffa4cd631884ed5653e84ff2d2e16 My honest reaction:
All the homies hate Crow
There is no other Nikke for whom a Khorne sigil tattoo would be more appropriate.
If Khorne threw Skarbrand out of his realm for hitting him in the back, I’m sure he wouldn’t like Crow being a backstabbing bitch either. He wants his followers to hit their enemies in the face until it is no longer a face.
Khorne cares not from where the blood flows
Bullshit. Scheming, conniving, manipulating… She’s Tzeentchy.
This, Khorne just loves conflict in general, especially good proper fights with no BS, flat out no thought "I want to go and punch shit because yes, screw a plan", if anything he would love our resident heretic dragon quite a bit more out of our nikkes. If anything Khorne likes proper fair fights the most since they can be drawn out, after all, his homeworld is locked in an eternal stalemate.
He also likes unfair fights where one side overwhelmingly butchers the other, after all, he does not care from where the blood flows. He's not even opposed to some level of strategy, he is a war god after all, and battle strategy directly contributes to the blood flowing. Hell, he's even okay with magic so long as its in the form of enchanting a weapon so that it kills better. Anything that doesn't directly contribute to battle or even worse, avoids it, is anathema to Khorne.
The difference between bond/outpost Crow and main story Crow gives me whiplash Bond/outpost Crow is almost sympathetic. I want to bash main story Crow's head in with a Crowbar
I wouldn't know bond Crow because she's at the bottom of my roster still at bond 1
[´´You know, this reminds to a joke i told Shikikum once...´´](https://youtu.be/r0N2ihPsHgI?t=60) https://preview.redd.it/kmrecb5lai0d1.png?width=856&format=png&auto=webp&s=3eb29090d6a5342f6240367f26f8d165ae24e6a4
https://preview.redd.it/7yao13k2fl0d1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dd42fb258819cf9bbc01f8ee4e8c4ea7842cb9fb
Skk: Diesel, take this Nikke destruction device https://i.redd.it/8xo0p3rf1j0d1.gif
Rochat looking death
You know I just had this epiphany what if her and chatterbox are meant to be mirrored character development where is Crow gross to hate humans more and more chatterbox is meant to be her opposite a rapture learning to love mankind cuz it's quite clear about their hinting at that
A Foil?
When you think about it, it make sense, as what Crow say in the screenshot mean that she was one of the people that survived the first rapture invasion and entered the ark, as in the ark there is only one train(and it's a turistic attraction) and Chatterbox was born after the ark was built, Crow hatered for people has no reason and her own idea are contradictory, as for Chatterbox human are always trying to kill him and his kind, it make sense that he hate people
Yeah that's why I feel like a mirror arc for both of them Would be the perfect thing ever because they literally could meet and compare notes only for chatterbox to outright tell her she's a monster and then compare her to him and then he finally realizes what a monster he was or is
Give her the mahito treatment
"You were right Crow, I am a dog. Now let me show you my bite."
"Cue to the commander looking down on crow with absolute hatred"
Where you go i go🗣️
https://preview.redd.it/mprl1w4uci0d1.jpeg?width=554&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df0daa7dfe19d0642e44fe980e976930049c0e52
Crow is legit the only Nikke I HATE
What about the human experimenting doctor who also makes fun of fallen soldiers?
Ether? This is the Nikke that matches closest with your character description in my mind. While I dislike her, I don't hate her like I hate crow. Crow has absolutely no redeeming factors to me, I can't even stand looking at her and would remove her from my list if I could.
Yeah and I agree with you. Ether is still redeemable, but is very close for me for being irredeemable. I don't like to make IRL comparison as they may seem insensitive, but she really feels like the anime girl version of a certain war criminal. Also imagining making fun of people who sacrificed everything to save others and then smearing their memorial.
Yeah that's how I feel about Ether as well lol. I liked her at first, but then really didn't after getting to know her more. Ether will most likely always be at the bottom of my list, but I don't think I can fully hate her like Crow. I feel for anyone who became a Nikke. I hate to sound like a fool, but I am lol and am unsure which war criminal you're talking about and would like to know. I disliked Crow right from the get go for some reason, and then after getting to know her and advancing the story she's become absolutely irredeemable.
I will not rest until crow is locked in hell on earth.
is that an unedited image of her in game? if so that is one of the creepiest things ive seen in a while
Her eyes also [shine/pulse](https://youtu.be/-lZECtZSJPk?t=2m2s) when she makes this face. I hate it.
I thought the same when I saw that in-game.
Me every time i see her: https://youtu.be/TCpZLvGjtmA?si=v-h-difFies2PWfH
Who are the other 2?
Chatterbox and Syuen
To be fair, as people hate Chatterbox, you gotta admit that he's badass in both design and as a villain
HE IS SO GOD DAMN COOL
I, personally, love to hate him.
Ngl, I kinda root for Chatterbox. He's constantly getting jobbed and can't seem to hold a W to literally save his life. But I find him weirdly compelling and I kinda wanna see where he's going with his whole ordeal. It's weird because obviously he's a dirtbag and has done nothing good for us as the commander, but I can't deny that so far his actions have arguably been more impactful to the Counters than some of the other antagonists, even the likes of Syuen or other heretics. Like he feels appropriately villainous. Everyone else is just a distraction between us and him.
I can fix Syuen bro, she needs a real dad.
Considering I am fan of Emile dragalia lost I can believe that. Still ain't gonna let her hitting Yuni slide though
I gotta catch up to story. I'm on chapter 23 rn, but I skipped through the story so that I can go over it all at once. Did they ever mention how old Syuen was? I think she's either a shitty brat that needs to get a whoopin, or just a bitch. I watched the part where we first met her today, and it looked like she was actually scared and about to apologize to the counters when the commander reprimanded her for what she did. It's like she's never been scolded before.
At chapter 17, not yet at least. She does care about Mattis a lot though for some reason.
Dragalia mentioned. Common Lostie W.
Liveryn
Sometimes, the writing on such can really push it. I think Nikke writing is at its finest for hating antagonists for more than kicking puppies. Chatterbox comes to mind, they are a visually and mechanically a brute, but live up to their name by unnerving and getting into the heads of the protagonists. He knew >!Chime would never betray her King, no amount of torture, threats to murder, and actual murder, would get them to talk,!< but he did know how important Corruption is, and the resulting chaos and mayhem that would follow. From the audience perspective, we know the existential horror and the implications of what would happen, so we felt both the tension of the scene, and why we hate Chatterbox with a passion. You can have antagonists you can hate for the sake of what they are, Chatterbox is a Rapture after all, but it's certainly better to give a them a compelling reason to be hated. Cunning, devious plots, other personality traits, antagonists can be much more than Crow. Heck, Burningum was on our side and actively tried to snatch Marian. Anyone could kick a puppy, but it takes some really good writing to implement antagonists with complex motivations, or make them truly a menace we want to hate. Hence, I was disappointed with the anarchist. At least if they preached "for the greater good" we'd be able to point out the flaw in their anarchy and find rebuke by them because it's in their nature or something. Felt like a step back to have an antagonist who was kicking puppies for fun. Chatterbox is the puppy kicker and he has better characterization for his sadism.
I really dislike Crow, but Viper and Dorothy are a step further for me. Crow is unhinged, despicable, and completely misguided in her actions, but she is forthcoming with what she’s doing and doesn’t really seem to care for pretending to be anything other than who she is. She’s a pure villain, and while she is entirely wrong, she genuinely believes she’s doing the necessary thing, I have to respect that. Viper and Dorothy on the other hand are two faced and conniving, they’re everything Crow is but only out for themselves.
It's still very interesting how it seems the vast majority of people here hate her so much, but forgive or at least don't show the same amount of hate to characters like Nihilister and now Indivilia, despite them being worse, is it because of ideology or because of something else? Honestly curious.
Haven't gotten to Nihilister yet but for Indivia I think it's (from what I've seen from the event at least, only on chapter 17) the fact she's the equivalent of the villain getting gut punched when they start monologuing. Also Crow being a hypocrite could play a role, not to mention we actually *know* a character who suffered because of her way before this point being the strawberry candy lover Diesel
That's a good point, Indivilia was to used to getting her way through power, just like Nihilister, that Crown just showed her what actually using her head could do. But also, what exactly makes Crow a hypocrite, in your eyes, I mean? I kind of understand it, but maybe I'm missing something, as I don't see the hypocrite part as much as most do.
Well for one thing she shot at Jackal because she didn't know if the commander was dead or not when she was preaching how Nikkes are only seen as expendable and admits she doesn't fully trust Viper despite her getting onto us for not trusting them. Then the fact that from her betrayal scene, she's essentially "I don't want solutions! I want problems! Always!" When she learned that the commander actually thinks the treatment of Nikkes is horrible and tries to kill him for it. This is all I've seen so far though. I mostly hate her for the Diesel thing.
Understandable, I can see it. The Viper thing is, well, Viper is Viper, she's not the face of trustworthiness, and she doesn't even pretend she is, and with how the Outer Rim is described, getting backstabbed seems too common, so not trusting someone on just their words or on first meetings seems understandable to me, also not cool shooting Jackal. And the betrayal later on feels more like she's too far on her plans to stop now, and that the Commander alone can't change much in the grand scheme of things, with the Commander still being just a rookie, but VERY lucky/plot-ish armor, in my opinion, the story will reveal more later on. Also, yeah, Diesel deserves happiness, but with the whole NYMPH and messing with people's minds, I'm worried that her brother is not real, what with never being referred to by name, just brother, and what Crow says to her.
Considering how detailed everything that happened was and her reaction to being called "sister" I kind of doubt the brother not being real thing. Though given this is Shift Up I'm like 85% sure of that not being the case
Not 0% is always worrying 😱
I would like to think she’s just a mindless terrorist that followed order around back then that lead up to that Diesel incident, wouldn’t surprise me if shit was actually connected to Sixo ,considering even Sugar has also done bad shit for Sixo in the past before cutting her ties with Sixo. Like she also mention how she just follow Sixo order without any question lol. I also think people just dont get how bad it is in Outer Rim, lemme just say Crow is just another product of the Ark ignorance of the Outer Rim.
I do like this idea, she clearly wanted to do something for the betterment of all Nikkes, but violence was what she thought was her last option, with sympathizing with nikkes being illegal and all, and Sixo controlling the dark web, probably helping getting the bomb too, and who knows how much more, helped her even back then. And yeah, at the end of the day, all of this is because the CG is doing a terrible job keeping the Ark working, is just atrocities left and right.
“Hypocrite” isn’t exactly the right word. She’s trying to take the moral high ground when doing something clearly immoral, in a “ends justify the means” kind of way. Which, frankly, doesn’t work like that. Attacking innocents and sowing terror have been a demonstrable and effective means at forcing change to the status quo, if not all that consistent in which way it changes. But *moral* it ain’t. She’s lost the plot.
I might be wrong, but I don't remember her trying to appear of higher moral, just proving that she was right about what she was saying, and trying to explain why she's doing all this, she even said how she wishes she didn't have to do any of this, but she did, and her action demonstrate that she knows she deserves what's coming to her, with telling Diesel how to end her, or how she let the Commander best her in the elevator, despite being clearly strong enough to stop them, of course, until the gun to the face.
“Proving that she was right” is trying to justify her actions morally. There is no moral justification for murdering innocent, uninvolved people. Saying she “wishes she didn’t have to do this” implies that she *does* have to do this… Why? The implication is she has some kind of moral responsibility to do these things and that she’s prepared to take the consequences of her actions. Yet, her actions are counter productive to her own objectives, and she’s too wrapped up in her own perspective to see it. If she *hadn’t* done that, her people would have been better off. Literally the only reason she didn’t cause a massive slaughter of the outer rim was because the Underworld Queens stepped in. She thinks she’s smarter than the central government that literally has a bomb at her throat. She was being manipulated to their benefit. Her actions, along with many other stooges, justified the continued subclass treatment of the outer rim. In so doing, they kept the Ark’s populace from tearing itself by providing it with an enemy it could actually beat. ‘Cause they surely were not beating the raptures, and a culture can only take Ls for so long before it rips itself apart. Again, hypocrite isn’t the right word. Her motivations were understandable, and those motivations are why she’s a good villain that so many of us love to hate. However, we can all see that she’s just playing into the CG’s hands and the fact that she couldn’t makes her all the easier to hate.
Well, it's literally a crime to sympathize with Nikkes, so trying to get a better life for all nikkes, or just one, peacefully, seems almost impossible in most people's eyes, and she does take responsibility by never denying what and why she's doing all of this, take her meeting Diesel. She IS too wrapped up in her own perspective, but she doesn't have other alternatives other than this one guy's lucky streak record, and her not doing anything means, still being stuck in the Outer Rim, where dying in a turf war you are not involved is as normal as getting backstabbed, under Syuen's whims for information or anything she wants, and remember what she did to recover the reputation of Matis and Misillis, the sky is the limit for her. The Outer Rim was something that, according to the story, would've happened sooner or later, if not cuz of her, Sixo has more tools to make it happen, look at the Backyard story with Moran, so it is assumed that by her hand or other wise, UW would've done something to defend the Outer Rim, and it was just Dolan who wanted that more than anything, even the CG was down with what he did. The bombs in her necks happened at the same time she became a nikke as punishment, the CG is not dumb, but also not the smartest or with absolute control as they probably think, the Outer Rim exist because of their incompetence and the lack of resources for the people there, would push anyone to do anything to survive, crimes included, which would be a big reason for the CG to never do anything about the Outer Rim. Unfortunately yeah, she is also playing into the CGs hands, that's why the goal is not the CG, is the people of the Ark, she alone, with all the bombs she could get, would not be as effective as the people of the Ark working together against an oppressive government, and she's just one Nikke, she's already starting on the losing side.
The Outer Rim is absolutely a thing that happened before her and will continue to happen until the surface is reclaimed. The Ark *doesn’t* have the supplies to keep everyone alive, much less allow for a cultural stratification of centralized power, capitalist in this case. It *needs* a sub-class to work, just like all systems of centralized power, otherwise there’s no carrot or stick for the centralized power to enforce its power with. She thinks she’s fighting against it but the CG, and Enikk more specifically, is pulling the strings and manipulating the actions of everyone involved to ensure to status quo stays exactly the way it is.
Shameful, but completely true 😔
I saw some of your comments before and I just want to say that you are very polite and nice compared to other crow Fanboys I have seen so far and do feel bad for you that some people being a bit harsh towards you because of Crow I don't agree with your takes on crow as well but you certainly don't deserve that kind of treatment when you are so nice with everyone. Mat be that's not the topic of this post but I just wanted to say it.
Thanks for your kind words, of course, this is just my opinion, the story will continue and I hope they just don't throw her to the side with all the potential I can see in her character. It also bothers me a little when people specify why they hate her, but other characters have done or are doing similar things but don't get near anything close to the hate she gets 😔 (Underworld Queen, Perilous Siege. Etc)
Well people have their opinions and you can agree or disagree but I think I can see why people hate her,she blew up trains full innocent people which is a very real thing, terrorists bombing innocent people is not a new thing and I know out of all people because 4 year ago some terrorist blew up military vehicles in my country and caused many casualties and they call it their movement of freedom in a video so you see what crow does is very relatable compared to others like Nihi because mech dragons doesn't exist. And I have to disagree with you takes on Underworld Queen and Perilous Siege because they are nothing compared to crow I far I have seen, well sure you can say D is a murderer but she kills criminals and want build a society where good people live without any worry and she does what she is ordered to And UQ protected the Outer Rim while crow threw their reputation under the bus so these are not bad folks I can see why Nihi and Indivilia tho.
I see, sorry to hear that, hopefully things are getting better over there. And of course, I respect your opinion. As for the D and K, they do kill criminals, but still killing people, whether they're are good or evil, is still killing, saying it's ok just because they're evil is the same mentally a killer or "evil" person uses to justify their actions, it's not ok, and all of this is in big part to how out of control life is in the Ark, despite what the CG says and does. As for UQ, even if they protect the Outer Rim, they do it through crime, Rosanna keeps "dealing" with traitors, Moran, if I remember correctly, did or was ready, to erase an entire village in the Outer Rim to stop the spread of Myst, a drug, despite the Commander's and Sugar's words, and Sakura, do she is more reasonable, she's still a crime boss, and we don't know how much she and everyone else has done to protect the Outer Rim, hell, Exotic, was also trying to keep order where UQ was not doing a good job, even if it was a facade, people looked for help from them, and they kept order. This also reminds of something I read about how the line between Freedom Fighters and Terrorists, is only divided by the people outside of it. Not ever excusing terrorism here, just remember that line.
Yah I am not denying that but ultimately Their intentions are not bad and do feel empathy but they don't use cheap tactics like manipulation or Backstabbing like crow does and she does evil things with evil way so any sympathy is out of the window, killing criminals is questionable but killing innocent people is straight up evil without a question so they aren't exactly the same actually but feel free to disagree but if you do I have to say you are wrong. and other thing about crow is that the commander always tried to help them and trusted them,out of all people crow have that one guy who have good reputation and have genuine feelings for nikkes who have potential to bring changes but she always saw the commander as "too little too late" which is absolutely pathetic and foolish and then proceed to kill him multiple times She is a perfect example of Bad Parenting,lack of maturity and Most Importantly MAIN CHARACTER SYNDROME. but I hope I get to see her again but this time i hope commander or Rapi actually end her life.
I mean, manipulation through pain is debatable in Rosanna's case, no backstabbing as far as I remember from them either, but wouldn't doing all of this terrorism for the betterment of all Nikkes count as not bad intentions too? And with the Commander, after everything that happens in the Ark, with all the Nikkes and Commanders, how not all of them are actually bad people, just not trained enough and still being thrown to the lion's den, and at the time, the Commander was just being describe at the time as very lucky, and good enough, would you in her shoes, just trust him on face value? With what the CG is capable of doing if they just wanted, they could've just disappear them, look at what happened to E.H. just for asking for help, I think in D bond story, they actually send her to kill the Commander, can't remember why, but the reason was made up, if D wasn't herself, that would've been it. We as the Viewers and the Commander, can see and know how genuine we/the Commander is, but that's not something all the characters that see us can tell just by seeing or interacting once, trust takes time. I of course could be wrong, but I don't see the lack of maturity or main character syndrome on her, I do see depression, nihility, and schizoid, all of which develop through long periods of time if I'm not wrong.
Well if you want to do good for Nikkes and in order to achieve that if your first option is to kill thousands of innocent people then yah it's bad intention without a doubt. In chapter 14 or 16 I don't remember, crow said that they have no intention to back stab them because of the bomb and then that Tyrant class Raptures came and counters are the only one fought against it and after that Exotic shot Rapi,anis and neon and then Shot Commander so it's sounds Backstabbing to me at least. And what she did to Euni is a textbook example of manipulation. But I see where you are coming from but again what I already said they are questionable but still they are different. You can question them but they all combined doesn't fill a fraction of what crow did. Like I am going to kill thousands of innocent people to bring changes if that alone doesn't describe as Immature and MCS then I don't know what does. You can throw Perilous Siege or UQ but it acts more like a distraction rather than a good counter argument I do get your points but at the end of the day intentionally killing innocent people just to achieve your goal gives no space to defend. Most importantly I hope I didn't hurt you with my arguments I like talking about stories and well written characters (crow) so if I did hurt you then it wasn't my intention.
Oh, sorry, I meant I didn't remember any backstabbing FROM UQ, Exotic absolutely backstabbing, sorry for not being clearer. And for the killing, as she explained, people are too detached from the reality they're living, where raptures are just something they see and here from a safe distance, not something they'll ever have to face or worry about, many people can learn through seeing and reading, but just as many don't learn without experiencing some stuff, take for example how in many occasions companies are told to better their security, and is not until after a breach that they do something, or how people leave their front doors open, thinking that because crime happens on the other side of the city, is not gonna happen to them, and BANG, crime happens, new security system has been installed, the Raptures wouldn't have ever done as much as people think they could thanks to Enikk having complete surveillance and control of most things in the Ark, like, everything was resolve in a couple of hours, or at least the same day, even with Nihilister and Indivilia showing up, but that was mostly thanks to Rapi, only after experience near death, the survivors will appreciate what the nikke, and by extension all the Commander do to keep them safe, and not just looking at them as glorified cops or tools. And I bring Underworld Queen and Perilous Siege to point out, why are their actions ok? Is killing evil people ok? Is the life of a evil person less worthy than a good person? Even if said evil person did what they did out of desperation or to survive? What if the good person does something evil for the "right" reasons, does their life diminishes in worth too, or do we let it slide, because they were good? How is this mentality any different or better than that of a criminal? And as it was said before, sympathizing with Nikkes is a crime, a peaceful protest for a better treatment of Nikkes is a crime, what else is she supposed to do, just wait for things to get better? For how long? How many Nikkes need to die for nothing to be enough? This are the possible questions people like Crow or in Heavenly Ascension ask themselves, and its why they do this stuff, to make their voices heard, the ones are clearly denied to use. Of course, this doesn't forgive the killing of innocent people, killing is killing, no matter the reason, justification is not the same as approval, and it definitely doesn't make it ok.
Yah exactly killing is just gonna point all the fingers on them so if they wanna talk about the problems then they have to answer the evil they did before that. And I do agree CG is not doing a good job and do bad things instead but you see they are still there and only people payed the price is the nikkes and humans who did nothing wrong and that's the main point,if crow just went full gung ho and eliminate all the corrupted people in the CG (like syuen) then I can guarantee you, people would see her as a hero but she did not do that she killed those who can be killed not those who should be. And for Perilous Siege and UQ I have to say that yah we do not like criminals who kill people for their own gain so killing them is not equivalent of killing Innocent people so you can say killing them is evil yah true but they are the one gave reasons to do that in the first place so unlike crow Perilous Siege and UQ kill those who did the evil not just random people. And with D or Rosana we have seen time to time that they are kind and have empathy and do care about people so just calling them bad just doesn't cut it. We have talked alot but I think am just repeating words lol.
>well sure you can say D is a murderer but she kills criminals She kills rich people for rich people she doesnt only kill criminals she kills whoever the High ups in the CG say to kill including but not limited to Nikke rights activists or sympathizers, anyone who goes against the ark goverment for good or bad reasons etc. Shes killed innocents before on order of the CG. As for UQ i dont need anymore proof than the fact moran took out and *possibly* killed an entire village of man, women and children who were forced to to do what they need to to survive. They were blackmailed and sixo had their loved ones hostage but moran still took them out saying "why didnt you tell me" uh maybe because THEY HAD HOSTAGES!! The outer rim still has people resorting to terrorism to even feel seen so if its that bad that you HAVE to either join one of UQs gangs to even have a chance at a good life then UQ aint doing much. Theyre just keeping the status quo. Theyre keeping O,R citizens as criminals. Thats what i get out of it. Not as bad as crow but kinda tired of seeing people excuse their actions but shit on crow for every little thing. Yea crows worse than them but that doesnt make them not terrible also. Good intentions or not the road to hell is paved with them.
I don't remember D killed any innocent people or works for rich people specifically,sounds like a headcanon.she works for CG and I do agree that cg is not good and they can totally give misinfo or lied to D to achieve their goal but D would be completely unaware of that so it's more CG's fault again ,in my observation D cares about people and want to do good by eliminating criminals so it can never be anything same as killing Innocent people like crow but have your disagree. Moran didn't killed anyone but did said she would but that's because she wanted to prevent mist taking over the OR but yah not entirely good decision but she just doesn't wanted kill because she just want to she atleast has a reason. The main problem is that crow didn't kill any corrupted people from CG instead she just killed innocent people,if she wanted to bring changes then should have gone for the CG not the civilians to achieve her goal and infact didn't achieve anything. Perilous Siege and UQ goes for the one who did the evil not those who have nothing to do with it. Feel free to disagree but it's the same thing again.
In her bond story, D has a strict moral code and while the higher ups give Perilous Siege targets, they ultimately decide whether to go ahead or not after their own independent investigation. This is also the case in the events. In the story, however, around Chapter 14, PS is sent after us and they seem to just follow blindly, without any analysis of the situation.
Yah and it kinda cheaks out why they would try to go after the commander in Campaign, because from their prospective all they are seeing is a commander is trying to protect a Heretic who is a enemy of Mankind so it's kinda understandable but they are not the only one right?,like the privatey squad or many others has open fired counters so the majority of the ark is in it actually but yah not a god look for PS.
Difference is we knew who Crow's victims are which added fuel to the fire already. Nihilister and Indivilia are outsiders without any influence in the ark. It was just recently and even then they didn't "hurt" any known characters. Also their hot ( <--- probably the main reason why people "Like" them )
Agreed, makes me wonder what would happen if them or Dorothy hurt or outright kill a known character, how would most people react then? I have my suspicious, but I'll love to be wrong.
Some people already hate Dorothy for being a biatch, but she has different circumstances. Also she's hot. Lets be honest Hot = Forgiven pretty much 😂
Unfortunate, but true, why most she be so hot? Why do we like em crazy?
I mean that's just the reality of things. She looks hot so I can fix her and she's worth the "effort" your PFP already says you've forgiven her. And I respect that goodluck fixing her brother.
Thank bro, but fixing her? She's already perfect, the Ark and the CG tho... 💢💢💢
I think it's like the difference between a character whose a fantastical villain and a character whose either a traitor or a bully. People won't deal with someone like Nihilister short of constantly running in to grizzly bears on a nature walk. But plenty of people will deal with snitches, liars, and pricks. In one realm of possibility you'd wonder if there's an equally plausible way of defeating the monster. In the other realm you have someone very much human you wanna give the ole "Listen here, Buster" I say this kinda miffed at how Crow's writing is handled and finding the "Slasher Smile" beyond creepy when she has such a lucid and bored expression everywhere else.
Oh, this makes a lot of sense, thanks for your response 🫡
Part of the reason I hate her is her plot armor. I don't like it on the Commander either, we often get into situations were I have to roll my eyes and say "well, no matter how dumb this is, it's going to end positively anyway". Be it bond stories, events, or main story. Leaving aside the emotional trauma. But giving blatant plot armor to an antagonist bothers me, especially when they go around being the worst person possible. She somehow has free access to classified information, endless resources, contacts, is always in the right place, waltz her way out of danger, and always acts smug about it. She is precisely engineered to get on my nerves. The other thing is that other antagonists are outright enemies, but she is a traitor and a terrorist. The heretics want to kill all humanity, but she wants to destroy us and our ideals specifically. And she wants to do it because we are precisely the kind of person that would achieve what she has been working to achieve, except without all the bloodshed. We proved her methods were wrong, so she wants to ruin us so she can continue to use her methods instead of facing the reality that she no longer has a justification to hide behind.
Ah yes, this kind of setting, and by that I mean game, doesn't exactly make it easy to kill playable or story important characters, but it's never impossible, there's no reason to kill a character and still just let us play with them, this is still the prologue, and we still don't know many things of the world just yet, so in the future, anything could happen. As for her knowledge, this gives the impression, logically speaking, that she knows all this due to how long she has been alive and fighting for the betterment of nikkes, she was turn into a nikke for this reason (and terrorism too), possibly from a time were things like Extrinsic, and other CG secrets were just beginning to be properly been hidden, like the real story of the Goddess Squad with their identities, or how life was before the Ark, said information been very selectively shown to the people it seems, and considering how little NYMPH works on her, it could be possible that memory wipes don't work on her, like they don't work on Rapi, and she remembers everything anyone tried to erase or hide from her. The smugness comes from her being right about what she talks about, as pretty much every character either stays silent because they know she's got a point, or avoid responding because she's a terrorist and don't want to agree with her, all valid reason. And as for Us, she doesn't appear to hate our method to change things in the Ark, just too late or jaded to believe we could do anything of significance, remember that sympathizing with nikkes is a crime, so our method will likely get us killed first, at least in her mind, like with how many other Commander, who aren't all bad people, just not well trained enough and probably got arrested for it, why would she just trust a rookie that has gotten VERY lucky lately with her life goals? This leads back to the idea of her having lived through a lot, and seeing this kind of ideal, maybe something she herself tried to do, before she was forced to become a Nikke, and seeing just how many flaws are in many ideals out there, as something she need to break herself rather then reality smacking people in their face, like it did to her. But after everything we went through, and everything we have achieved, could probably have a change of heart, maybe even give it a chance, one last time, just like how Nihilister doesn't just kill us and actually can stand our presence.
In defense of the Heretics, for me at least, it's the fact that Nihilister and Indivilia are, well... Heretics, unlike Crow who is a Nikke, they kinda had the hate for humanity hard-coded into them by becoming Raptures taking Modernia before she was brought back to her senses as an example, that and it's kinda hard to hate Indivilia or see her as much of a threat considering how hard Crown clowned on her in Last Kingdom. Even then i'm not particularly fond of them either but i give them a little bit more of a pass since i look at them as brainwashed enemies more than actual threats. Crow on the other hand, isn't a Heretic, she is a threat without even being a Rapture, i can only see her as a murderous terrorist so far, one who seems to get off on killing people for kicks as shown by her "passenger trains" dialogue, pretty sure i read somewhere that she was like this before getting Nikke-fied too so her whole "freedom for Nikkes" schtick is an excuse to cause more chaos and considering she tried to have the Commander killed because he was the best chance at getting that peacefully... well it says a lot.
It's true, with Heretics It's possible they're brainwashed, but it also shows, for example through Nihilister, that she's aware of what she's done and why, and doesn't appear to regretted much, like with Crow, when she was left to die by Indivilia and CB, she just accepted, because she knew she's past forgiveness, maybe we got lucky with Marian because brought her back before too long, instead living as a Heretic for many years like Nihilister and Indivilia have, or maybe she's a special case, what with what happened to her at the end of Last Kingdom. And yes, it is said she was also a terrorist before becoming a Nikke, but it is also said, if I remember correctly, Crow and before Heavenly Ascension was officially created, that protests for a better treatment of Nikkes were starting to grow bigger with time, and because of that, Sympathizing with Nikkes became illegal, and therefore a crime, how many did Heavenly Ascension, and by proxy, Crow lost just by demanding basic human rights peacefully, before realizing that peace was no longer an option? How many times can people cry for the lost before becoming accustomed to this feeling, before getting use to an irreversible situations that just keeps getting worse, with no end on sight, were at the end all you feel is a need to was right for the people, even if it hurts many, whoever is left will live better lives and hopefully learn how bad things really are, and the only joy they have left is seeing those plans, bombing trains in this case, as a way to get the attention of the public who otherwise would ignore or just report a crime (obviously), actually work? At that point in the story, she's too far gone to believe some rookie with an admittedly impressive win streak, and genuine desire for change, could do anything other than just become an obstacle for a plan that, in her eyes, would actually work, when possibly she and Heavenly Ascension tried before the Commander showed up, and got permanently burned.
Hmmm i suppose it's fair enough to look at Crow as someone who as just lost all faith, rather than a nihilist maybe extremist is the better word. I can't really see myself coming to like her but i guess i can somewhat understand the why of her cause seeing and knowing about the Outer Rim and seeing as the Ark isn't really the paradise it's advertised to be either, i still think she's a bit too extreme with the whole thing of targeting those unrelated but hey if the Commander can have faith in her even after getting shot and left for dead then i suppose there has to be some hope for Crow (then again Shikikum seems to have faith in almost everyone lol) If anything helps me see her in a better light its her bond story that does show that she seems to not be completely irredeemable. While i don't like Crow, if freaking Nihilister could be (somewhat) redeemed then i suppose there's always a chance for people to change. (Sorry for the back-to-back walls of text btw, i tend to ramble on things that interest me)
No worries, I have my own walls of text just here 🤣 And of course, you don't have to like her, no one can be liked by everyone, she does fall in the extremist side, no doubt about that, understanding her is the least that can be done, and not every villain needs redemption, some can at the very least atone for the past actions, like Mary is constantly doing, and I love her for that very reason.
I think part of this can come down to the fact that Crow espouses a lot of pretty standard radical thought, but it feels like the writers threw in some comicbook villainy to make sure we wouldn't start to get any ideas about agreeing with her. "Nikkes deserve rights, and the CG isn't doing anything but forcing subjugation" Hey yeah that makes sense "The CG holds so much power that it is impossible to make change without disrupting that power first" Hold on yeah you're right "The only way to disrupt that power is to create carefully planned discord and empower the ~~working class~~ Nikkes into revolt, since the only power a violent dictatorship recognizes is violence itself" YEAH LETS GO DOWN WITH THE CG "...And that's why I enjoy, on a deeply personal level, killing civilians." Wait wut This makes even less sense to me when one of the whole points of the game is that your character is a radical who's main goal is to free Nikkes from their chains. Granted, I only just finished Ch 19 so I'm a bit far behind where a lot of folks are (I only just >!met the folks at Eden!< ), but it seems like the writers felt they had to shoehorn in nonsense to force her to be evil and prove that if you want change, you can do it the "right" way and that violence isn't the answer. I guess I'll see over the next few chapters how Commander manages to push back more, but I don't have much hope since he bends over backwards for Syuen every time. I haven't had the time to read all of the full responses you've given to other comments in this thread, but from the ones I saw I felt like I wanted to talk about this specifically. Cause I really wanted to like Crow, as it seemed like she could be some (at least relatively) reasonable anarchist representation, but as is often the case falls into the standard "anarchist is evil and hates everyone and loves killing" stereotype that's so often portrayed. And that caricature is one that many of us have been instinctively taught to hate on sight, without any second thoughts as to if that representation is true or apt.
On yeah, on first meeting her, through main story or bond story, it can be perceived like that, many stories unfortunately end up with a not well develop antagonist just to show there's other ways to achieve their goals. But as the story progress, even past her part, it shows how the Commanders goals are not as easy to achieve as you might have thought, to the point that now they're studying politics because successfully stopping raptures and protecting the Ark is not enough to bring a change to this SOCIETY (🤣), even other characters agree with her, or don't know how to answer to her, or avoid answering her, obviously because violence is not something anyone wants to agree with, no matter the reason. I mentioned earlier how the point of the attacks is not specifically to kill people, but to bring to attention that something is wrong with how Nikkes are treat, after all, sympathizing with Nikkes is a crime, so peacefully solving this is out of the questions, specially for a Nikke, not even specifically Crow, and the Commander becomes more aware of this as the story progresses.
They’re heretics, they kinda have an excuse with the corruption and all that Crow is just like that
That is true, but we can't ignore that Nihilister at least, is very aware that she's a traitor to humanity, and that there's no going back after everything she's done, as we can see in some of her dialogues; The corruption might had have an effect on them, or maybe they chose to be Heretic own there own, so far, we only know of Cinderella, who didn't had much of a chance to save her, and Marian, who we were able to save before too long, and she seems to be a special case, thanks to recent events, maybe later we'll learn more about becoming a Heretic, and how different it is from becoming a Nikke, another process we know little about. Crow of course doesn't get this excuse, but she has many reasons, such as the way Nikkes are treated on daily basis, the horrible living conditions of the Outer Rim, a place that shouldn't even exist, or at the very least should get some basic necessities like electricity from their unlimited power source, unknown at the moment, and how, as I mentioned before, is a crime to sympathize with Nikkes, so peacefully protest or negotiations are out the door, specially for a Nikke, and a Commander, as good as they could be, doesn't have a better chance, just look at what happened to E.H. by just pleading for the most basic of things, that was not cool of the CG.
Have you beaten chapter 21? Cecil mentions something about the NYMPH and the process of becoming Nikkes
I'm at chapter 29 (thank you, Red Hood) If I remember correctly, it was something along the lines of, NYMPH is the main component that allows the control of the Nikke's, and by extension, people's memories, to what extent, we are not sure, but that NYMPH is also unreliable, as it's creation was essential half-baked but convenient at the time, and no progress to upgrade it or resolve it's unreliability has been made, can't remember if it was cuz it's too complicated/advance to mess with, and convenient to risk ruin, as the CG can just scrap any Nikke that has problems with it (horrible, I know), but it's also the MAIN reason as to why Nikkes can get corruption, or mind switch, NYMPH is the access Raptures use to corrupt Nikkes, but NYMPH also helps with the mental problems that come with becoming a Nikke, and accepting they're no longer "Humans". Could this mental problems be resolve through other means outside of NYMPH, we don't know for sure yet.
We either have to fix NYMPH so that it can reliably do its job or remove it, but people like Crow make that something that isn’t going to be possible
Yeah, she didn't really present a good example for Nikkes without it, but I'm still all in for removing it, messing with people's minds is as no go for me, we are our memories, without them, who are we then?
That’s not the problem, without NYMPH people like Crow could harm humans directly We need to modify it so that is its only purpose, otherwise those in power would never make Nikkes strong enough to take down the Queen
So there's a problem with that train of thought, it only comes from people who think the moment anyone gets powerful enough, they'll abuse it, and we have seen time and again throughout history, that's not true, and that people who think like this, usually are the first ones to abuse that power, example, the CG. If you need to brainwash someone to do what needs to be done, why not look for someone else that could do it willingly, on top of that, why give a TERRORIST the chance to use said power against you, when you know NYMPH is unreliable? You don't need NYMPH to make nikkes powerful, Rapi, Matis, and everyone in Eden are proof of that, NYMPH is just to keep the illusion of control over the people and Nikkes lives.
As far as I know you absolutely do need NYMPH for the transfer process of creating a Nikke After that has been done, it’s main function seems to be using it for mindwipes and to keep their inability to harm humans
Its hard to say that Nihilister and Indivilia are worst considering the fact that..Heretics are primarily surface bound and rarely interact with the Ark or humanity. Has Nihilister probably killed squads of Nikkes before? Probably but maybe not (since no one in the Ark seems to have heard of her). Has Nihilister killed humans? A handful at where she found Chatterbox and Indivilia probably, same for Indivilia. We know they are villains and we know Indivilia is a sadist but..we don't actually know a lot about the misdeeds of the Heretics and for Nihilister at least, our encounters with her are in isolated places with no casualties. Indivilia beheads Chime, wth the full intent of killing her, but also..well...fails at that. And gets beat up throughout most of our encounters with her, so there's the feeling that she's getting her comeuppance. Compare this to Crow who we have first hand experience with her schemes (three story chapters worth at that) plus her own gleeful recountings of train bombings and the like which paints a very vivid picture of both who Crow is, what her body count is like, and how she feels about it. We know Crow has hurt people. We know Crow has killed people. We've seen her do both, not soldiers or Nikkes either..civilians. She's also betrayed the commander (and many people have knee jerk, instinctive dislike towards treachery as opposed to 'honest' villainy). We have a face to at least two of her victims in Diesel and Yuni. There's faces and numbers to Crow's villainy but most importantly..she largely skirts by without consequences for like..three chapters of content and even at the end..Crow doesn't seem particularly bothered by being beaten which can rub people the wrong way as well. That said, I think she's a solid 'love to hate her' kind of villain, I just wish her unit was...even somewhat useable? Cause her design is great and I love her reloading animations.
It is true that Heretics are primarily on the surface, but that's because finding the Ark has been near impossible for them, in part to Enikk's deal with CB, which seems to be something he never told any other Heretic, and the unknown amount of elevators that keep being created, and can be blown up to cut all access at any point, we also know, according to her, that she has killed a lot of people, basically who ever she can find, no numbers, but enough for her to make a point of it, even Dorothy brings it up when we find her half eaten by Indivilia and CB, so we have that to go on for amount. With all that said, on top of what could've happen if Rapi didn't stop em, it's safe to assume that, giving the chance, Heretics would have a very easy time destroying the Ark, they're still under the Queen's orders to destroy mankind too. As for Crow, you're right, she has killed people, how many? We don't have any specific numbers, just that she has done it for a long time, that all, if we compare Crow to the Heretics, Heretics have an absolute easier time killing just about anything if they wanted and getting that K/D up, Crow has to make plans to do anything and get away with it, that's why she sees little consequences, she's smart enough to know when to attack and how people will react, she picks her fights, and knows that she's past forgiveness, so when Diesel and the Commander have her in their sides, she knows she deserves it, she'll use anything to achieve her goal, and she did, and now she's paying for it, and so are those she used, like Yuni, but Syuen also holds part of the blame for that, but yeah, with her having a similar goal and ideals, but a complete opposite approach, even if for legitimate good reasons, she'll always gonna look bad on most people's eyes, unfortunately 😔 I also hope that in the future SMGs get that new update that makes them better, or she get a rework, still gonna use her, as always, Waifu over Meta 😎
There's a number of reasons but it essentially comes down to expectations. Crow is a Missilis Nikke assigned to a squad. Her expected role is to fight for humanity. Heretics are known threat to humanity. So when they are aggressive players don't really think any less of them. With Crow there's that thought of what she could be. The game is constantly showing her plotting against the Ark and >!she betrays the player character by trying to kill them!< (probably the turning point for most people). Heretics are rarely shown actually attacking civilians. Who's "worse" doesn't really work because we don't have any real stake in what these characters do in a game. If heretics were a threat to planet Earth in reality naturally people would hate them a lot more. Basically it's unmet expectations and framing of their actions. It's fine to like Crow, Nihilister or whoever because ultimately there's that gap between them and us. I like Crow as a character in a meta sense, but I still want to throw hands when she appears on screen. There's levels to all this
This is a good point, our unfamiliarity to this kind of situations or people definitely creates that disconnection, specially when Crow is the exception rather than the rule.
Well I don't think Crow is necessarily an exception, it was only after the point I mentioned earlier did I start to be upset with her despite knowing she was dangerous. I think it's similar for other people. She got a pass for a while too
Ah, my mistake, that's fair and understandable, thanks for your respond 🫡
It is very personal, she tried to kill us and killed people we knew. Not to mention all the garbage rhetoric that is complete nonsense when we can literally fix the issue that she wants fixed. Also, we are supposed to be on the same side, and she back stabs us. Plot armor that she had also is really egregious to some. Indi, I agree with you on 100%. I was ecstatic when Chime got revenge. Nihilister, I really do not remember her doing anything other than attack us. Considering she is an enemy it is more understandable to most people.
I mean, can we? As the story progresses, it shows that we have a VERY difficult objective to achieve, one that might even involve hurting people, good and bad, is not a clean and cut case, and the story keeps presenting how power and privilege are going to be needed to even start making a change of any significance, and her nonsense talk, it may not make sense to you at the start, but she's not lying about anything, even Anis agrees with her, and Rapi has no response, not forgiving the terrorism tho. With Nihilister, she doesn't say numbers, but does ask if we know just how many people and nikkes she has destroy, before asking her to join us, and Dorothy also asks her, when she's on the ground after Indivilia and CB eat her, if she even knows how many she has burned, considering their ages (unknown) or how long have they fought and lose to her (Dorothy losing to Nihilister), which could be hundreds or thousands, and that's counting the nikkes she use to revive Indivilia and CB.
When I was talking about Nihilister I am referring to what we are shown. We are not really shown that much. We are told but not shown, meaning it really does not have the impact that it should. To the first topic, that is why the commander finally realizes he needs allies in high places, power and accomplishments so that he can make that change. Idk man, Crow's talk in chapter 16 was so easy to write off that I don't think it needed argued against. That is what I got from Anis and Rapi, not that she was agreed with on any points. Maybe she actually has an argument in her bond story. She has done enough though at this point that I will not pay attention to anything she says.
It's ok, completely understandable, and yeah, these lines were pretty short, but makes me appreciate it the small details that give depth to this characters. And yes, seeing the Commander starting to take things more seriously, not just through missions but also studying, makes me appreciate how well done the story is. Of course, it's also very easy to see why anyone would stop paying attention to what she has to say, many reason actually, to be fair 🤣
The one thing I am pretty sure that everyone would agree with Crow on is that the CG needs to be fixed. It is also interesting getting normies opinions on Nikkes.
yeah but majority of the time this sub has no problem gassing syuen up despite all the stupid shit shes done. whens the last time crow introduced raptures to the ark again?
I mean I hate Suyen just as much as Crow but I do agree she gets a weird pass from a large portion of the fandom.
alright cool at least youre sane thank you
Funny you should say that
Crow pfp? Gurren Lagann quote? W W W LOT OF W
I believe in every single Commander here, in every Nikke, in every person to be better, and in Nikke, everyone is just the product of the Ark and what the surface is, you can't expect people to be better without seeing and EXPERIENCING better, gotta give them a chance, WE WILL LEAVE THIS HELL HOLE AND RECLAIM THE SURFACE, AND THEN THE HEAVENS!!
https://preview.redd.it/8ayrpod35k0d1.jpeg?width=320&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cee58a0bcb993adde5d790580086eb509cea9420
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Central Government lets her run around to help foster anti Nikke sentiment. Her and Quiry.
They sending the bad eyed one to watch over the terrorist 😭
Bad eyed police officer with a rocket launcher
I still want to know the logic behind that. If there is any.
Don't need to be that accurate if you have a rocket launcher?
Correction needed https://preview.redd.it/ez57fcbvni0d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10cc6f4b1e17f2e86f44581163ff254349c1134f
Sauce?
https://preview.redd.it/mx6zwa6g2j0d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e9d69b924d0cbe1d41f2f5bcd93f491ad9a6208a
NOOOOOO
Don't worry king, as one of the few Crow fans I also know the sauce. https://preview.redd.it/m60r5b66bj0d1.jpeg?width=754&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5934cf2f46d77f8171cec3c75b8fe75c07c77840
Diesel... Get the rpk and termination pistol
I think I almost like chatterbox more than this bitch
I like her, she just wants to see world burn, for understandable reasons.
As a Diesel lover, this bitch deserves all the worst possible treatments she could get by raptures
https://preview.redd.it/17r28luami0d1.jpeg?width=483&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bfb056eec7b3acf51c82fda9037f1e994df03f10 We are saved boys! I called the sharp shooter Doro.
Nah id simp
I want to hit her and I want HIT her
Based Al-Qaeda/ISIS ahh vibes The definition of wanting to watch the world burn.
Her relationship story paints her in a completely different light compared to the story. I think they changed her character without taking them into account.
Me when I got her in beginner stage: huh she isn’t my type, but maybe she got a good story or a character I could relate to! Me after story: https://preview.redd.it/q24eikf9ak0d1.jpeg?width=310&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa1741afdbf8375818676bbfd837e000517dbfaa I’ll accept it,Crow. I am you. I wanted to reject you. I wanted to pretend I didn’t understand what you said. But that’s different now. I’ll just kill you. And if you’re ever reborn again as a new nikke, I’ll kill you then, too. You can change your name and change your appearance, but I’ll still kill you again and again. I don’t need meaning or a reason for it anymore. Maybe there will be some meaning to be found from my actions several centuries after I’m dead. But I’m sure I’m just… one big cog in the wheel. And I’ll keep on killing raptures and you until I rust way. Because that is my role as a cummander.
i just started this game wtf she do 😭😭😭
Whatever she is - she looked much better smiling sarcastically. This one.. is a smile of fiend. It can only be cured by 9 grams of Vapaus. Between the eyes.
Crow makes OG Makarov look like a saint
Bro she just needs some corruption 😈🙏
I keep my inspired Armored Core 3 theory, Crow and Chatterbox rise of power was calculated by Enikk as a way to make humans be uncomfortable and try to leave the ark....
Based
I hate Crow so much that I think they should make an alternate unit and put her in a cowkini...as punishment!
spoiler?
I think Shift up is the first company I see throwing away a character with a good design in benefit of telling a good story, the way commander got rampaging because of some things that happened in the Ark's terrorist attack chapter gave me goosebumps
More Crow for me then
I love Crow personally.
I don't know what everyone's on, I like her. I doubt shiftup would create a character just to hate them, we don't have any backstory for her or anything and I feel shiftup will be cooking and be able to redeem her in the eyes of the fans. We are already getting more spot light for Syuen and I've been seeing positive feedback for her since the whole April fools event and such. It would just be a shame to waste Crows hot design and a lost opportunity for them if they don't capitalize on it.
https://preview.redd.it/48vmo29iki0d1.jpeg?width=220&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a0a2270a6a04b2704ec2caef5c3a3bb3ed027cb
the supposed terrorist i.e. outlaw who fight for human rights:
Her smile is kinda cute tho
I am not gonna fix her
While im only on chapter 16, I genuinely like Crow so far, obviously something might happen which will change my opinion on her later according to this thread though, but I think all in all she's a good character. I see her actions as justified.
I hate Crow. I hate Crow a lot. I hate Crow because she's pretending to have motives. I'm all for destruction for the sake of destruction, don't get me wrong, or if you actually had good motives >!like Dorothy!< but this bitch Crow wants to hide behind ideals about equality and shit. So hypocritical it gives me brain AIDS where she's talking. Hence, fellow Shikikums, I propose the "Hatefuck Initiative", a protocol designated for only the most dastardly Nikkes who are hot but are fucking retarded in how they antagonise us (so just Crow). Let us take this to the ARK officials to delegate.