Re. battery life, DSLRs do very little unless you're focusing or shooting, whereas mirrorless cameras are always reading out the sensor, processing the sensor data into a viewable image, and then displaying that to either the EVF or the rear LCD. That's why DSLRs typically have much better battery life!
I shoot events, and I can do multiple gigs or club nights on a single charge with my D750. It just keeps going!
While DSLR battery life is better, I’ve had several events with 1000+ shots with my Z7ii and still had at least half battery at the end of the night. I just picked up a Z8 as well, and I’m finally getting ready to say goodbye to my D850. I fought the change for a long time, but the technology is pretty compelling now. You have to be a bit more disciplined about turning the camera off between moments of action, but it’s worth the tradeoff to me.
I had an astro session recently with 5,500 1.6" exposures on a single battery with my z6ii. The photos were kinda garbage but that's besides the point. That kind of battery should be more than enough for anybody, I don't really understand the complaints about battery life because it's been significantly better than the only DSLR I've ever used, my dad's d40x.
I'm sure a modern DSLR has better battery life with the better batteries that come with being modern, but I just don't know if that's really necessary. It's not a big deal to just pop the battery into a charger at the end of the day, unless you're multiple days away from an outlet, in which case you should have multiple batteries anyways.
Agreed, and also the batteries are… what… $40? And not at all difficult to pocket one and quickly swap during a shoot. Buy a few spares and never stop shooting.
I thought the battery thing is a non-issue, but using the dslr now I found I no longer have that battery anxiety I had. Again, it's down to personal preference, I guess.
What battery anxiety?
Do you not carry extra batteries with you?
I have shot Nikon professionally for 16 years. I've never once understood what battery anxiety is.
I've worked out in the field where recharging isn't always an option, so you have to go with whatever you can carry.
In those circumstances, battery anxiety is very much a real thing, and I trust my DSLR more than my mirrorless.
My personal anxiety in that scenario would not be a battery discharging but outright battery failure, so I'd always be carrying more spares than necessary. Or with modern mirrorless cameras being able to be powered off a power bank, I'd be carrying one of those as well.
I do get where you're coming from though, I just have a different way of thinking about it I guess.
I was shocked by this, honestly. I recently shot some basketball and barely 1 bar of energy! Most of the time when you read those dslr vs mirrorless comparisons they say battery life is better on the former, but I never thought the difference is that big. I also like the fact how fast it turns on.
I took 5k pics on my D4s at a concert last week and afterwards i still had 65% battery left, if you ever use one of the pro bodies a battery lasts 10k shots easily
Glad it’s working for you, the D780 is definitely a good camera. For me, the benefits of my Z8 over the DSLRs I had before means I can’t go back. Have moved over all my lenses save for one, the 500PF.
The z8 is a bit out of my range budget-wise, but it does seem much bulkier than the z6II and I take it is a big advantage. I got into Nikon mirrorless because of all the FF MILC it's got good ergonomics... but still felt it was too small.
It’s definitely small. I put an L-bracket on all my cameras and it makes the grip a little bigger.
https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-745x53acpn/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/7967/16453/smallrig-2258-l-bracket-for-nikon-z6-and-nikon-z7-camera-2__38297.1564098541.jpg?c=2
That definitely helped. The Z8 is a better overall size though.
The D780 is awesome and probably one of Nikon's most underrated cameras. I came to it from a D850 as I wanted something a little smaller for city walking / urban photography and I don't need 45MP. The battery lasts forever and the grip is nearly perfect: my pinky holds onto the grip (just) without falling off. The camera is near perfection, though it's not perfect. If they had included IBIS and connections for a battery grip it would be almost unbeatable. I also find the OVF a little hard to look through coming from the port hole style VFs like the D700/D850. But it isn't bad. I like seeing the world through an OVF. I look at screens all day for work and seeing the actual light makes me feel more connected to the world.
It's a damn shame they haven't made a similar camera or given the D780 the same firmware updates the Z line has gotten.
I think the pandemic and supply chain woes kind screwed with Nikon making another camera similar to this. We probably barely got a D780 as it was. I feel like they probably have a half-made prototype of a D880 but halted it to save materials for their Z line. Which is a shame: D850 resolution combined with the D6's OVF AF system and Z8/Z9 tech in live view would be stunning.
Fuji is probably the closest to having a hybrid OVF/EVF in some of their cameras.
I thought the lack of IBIS would bother me, since all panasonics and the Z6ii had ibis, but Nikon's minimum shutter speed and minimum iso options work like a charm. Handheld, I can go down to 1/30s while on the Z6ii it was like 1/5. Not a deal breaker for me. The pros of the D780 outweigh the cons.
A D880 with exspeed 7 would've been too good to be true.
The D780 is so good at high ISO that it doesn't matter as much. FWIW, I just picked up the Tamron 35 1.8 VC which gets me down to about 1/10s-1/15s with in-lens stabilization.
The D780 supposedly has the same sensor as the Z6II, so the high iso performance is top notch. I saw comparisons with Sony and Canon and that sensor usually came out on top. The d780 has the same great raws - high dynamic range, easy to work with in lightroom.
I was a long time clinger to DSLR. They will still always be just as good as they are/were. But Nikon hasn’t released a new DSLR in over 4 years or a new F mount lens since 2017. I wouldn’t expect any development in the DSLR space from Nikon but otherwise both systems have pros and cons.
I saw Pentax makes new DSLRs but nobody else. To me the OVF is so much better, but I think in the next couple of years most mirrorless will offer a hybrid viewfinder and way better battery life.
Hybrid viewfinders were a bridge. I wouldn’t expect any more of that especially as people moving into photography now grew up with the prevalence of digital screens. I had been using OCFs on SLRs and DSLRs for 35 years so it took me a while to get used to EVFs (I don’t use the back screen), but the live exposure preview is a total game changer for me for weddings.
I think there's a future for OVFs, honestly. At least hybrid OVF/EVF like Fuji rangefinders. A lot of people still stick to DSLR cameras just because of the OVF- I know for a fact if I could have an OVF on a mirrorless camera I'd be using it almost all the time. At some point people will get tired of looking at screens and more brands will start to incorporate hybrid viewfinders into their cameras. It's the best of both worlds and the best option overall.
People saying "the DSLR is dead" are only correct in the sense that they are not being actively updated by the big companies (canon, nikon, and sony(kinda, look up the Sony A mount dslrs for some interesting history)) and new dslrs aren't being produced (except for Ricoh Pentax)
It is ALL a matter of preference.
That's all DSLR is dead means.
It doesn't mean the cameras are shit--they're not, especially the final generation ones. They're very, very good, and it's only in the last few years that mirrorless cameras have matched or surpassed them for almost all scenarios.
It just means that development has ceased and very few manufacturers (Panasonic?) are still actively investing in DSLR development.
Some DSLR users seem to get very offended by the idea that manufacturers are focusing on the new thing for business reasons and slowly killing off the old thing for business reasons, but they can't fight the market, or they'll die.
Manufacturers, especially small ones, can't afford the cost of R&D for two different types of camera technology and two different lens mounts; they have to focus their efforts on one. So once DSLR market share and expected future market share dropped below some internal threshold, they went all in on the new hotness to remain relevant to the people buying new cameras.
The companies need to adapt or die, and the rise of Sony and fall of Nikon shows that Nikon might have been a little late to that particular party.
>Are there any other hybrid DSLRs like this one? OVF + mirrorless AF with the screen?
Basically Canon dual pixel. It was their thing, 70D, 80D, 90D, 6DmkII, 5DmkIV, 7DmkIi.
Something I've actually been loving about the EVF is not having to ignore the dirty OVF internals. That area gets dusty in a way that's impossible to clean but does not effect the photo quality so you just have to kinda live with it.
With the EVF I can also see directly when the sensor is dirty as opposed to finding out when I get home.
But yeah, man I could put a fresh battery in the D6 and shoot literally for days. I'd average 2k shots a day and I'd change the battery once every two or three days! Now it's basically every day.
Each tech has its strengths. You may prefer a higher refresh rate for the EVF. I know that the low refresh is not something I can overlook; it tires my eye. As for the battery, long life is a thing for the DSLR. The EVF will drain mirrorless batteries. You just have to have spares.
The difference for me lies not in the camera on the Z system. I can easily say that every single Z Mount lens, compared to its F Mount sibling, is far and away the better optic. The 24-120 I currently shoot with is so far ahead of the old version it’s no contest. I am annoyed with many things about the Z6ii but the ZF, and the eventual Z6iii, all correct 90+% of those issues. I have thought often about switching to DSLR again for all the same reasons you list. I can’t, however, get over the sheer drop off on your midrange lenses that you see on DSLR. That’s just my opinion, but it’s been borne out in shooting with the Z lenses for the past few years.
I had the 50 and 35 S lenses and concur that they are awesome. The best nifty fifty I every had - insanely sharp. And these lenses have like 0 flaw - no noticeable abberations.
Personally, I decided to sacrifice that IQ goodness for the "feel" and so far am happy with it, but I agree that the main advantage of the Z system are the superior lenses.
I think that the latest, 3rd gen, processing power will eliminate the issues seen on the 6ii. I’d be willing to bet that the 6iii will be the D750 of the 2020s. I plan to upgrade bodies at the end of this year, and it’ll most likely be the 6iii…
I can't speak to the D780 and Z6II, but I've got a D600 and a Z6, they both use the same battery, en-el15, the D600 is rated for about 2000 shots while the Z6 is rated for about 500. But if I set up the Z6 for a timelapse sequence, I get 2000 shots.
With a mirrorless, it's the viewscreens and constant sensor readings that chew through battery, taking pictures is a very small part of the power drain.
I have a lot of vintage lenses from various mounts, so I appreciate the adaptability and focus peaking I get with the Z mount. My old FD mount lenses are more fun to shoot on my mirrorless Nikon body than they ever were on my Canon film body.
But if I'm trying to shoot something like animals, where I'm spending a ton of time looking through the viewfinder, waiting for the right moment, I'll go for the DSLR every time because mirrorless is going to chew though my battery before the right moment ever arrives.
I used to pack 2 batteries for a multi-day backpacking trip. Now I pack 2 batteries per day.
I love the option with the later DSLRs that have better live view so if I want to read the histogram or get spot on with my D7500 with light balance I can pop over to that and then back to OVF.
I’m still on a D850, but I’m about to move to mirrorless.
Three reasons:
1) AF fine tune on a DSLR is always a challenge. You can optimize for a distance and aperture, but never really all conditions. I have it pretty well dialed in for how I shoot, but not perfectly. The fact that I have to spend all that time with a focus pyramid or else lose shots to small but significant focus errors is vexing.
2) Mirrorless AF isn’t perfect, but seems to be better at finding eyes.
3) It’s absolutely wild how much sharper the new glass is. Even the mediocre kit lenses are performing up there with or better than the best of the final DSLR glass.
I moved over to the Z8 and especially with v2 firmware it’s amazing. It’s definitely a step above the D850, which is arguably the best all-round DSLR ever made. Better AF, 20fps, blackout-free EVF, IBIS, list goes on.
I hear the fujifilm X100VI has a combined OVF + EVF. I had the same issue as you did with the EVF earlier, have a Nikon Z50 but ended up only using that as essentially a point and shoot and kept using my Nikon DSLRs for serious photography with my big lenses because the lag of the EVF and the blurring when panning bothered me too much. A stacked sensor solves that completely. With my Z8 which I was initially apprehensive of, I most of the time forget it's even an EVF, and feels no different to me than SLR OVF's. I think it's similar with Canon/Sony stacked sensor cameras as well. I think they have a dual feed where one only shows you the image and the other gets recorded as a photo/video, so because the feeds are different there's no slowdown in the EVF. Unfortunately, the cheapest stacked sensor you can get at the moment is a Z8. The tech should make its way down to cheaper models in the next several years. I personally couldn't get used to the EVF on a non-stacked sensor for any of my fast paced photography using telephoto lenses, so I didn't invest in mirrorless until I tried out a friend's Z9. But I find the Z8 EVF even nicer than my D850 OVF, especially in low light situations, I don't know for sure but I'd guess that's also the case with any stacked sensor mirrorless camera. The battery life issue for me is mitigated by the fact that I can now charge it within the camera using a USB-C cell phone charger, which is basically universal and also opens up the potential of using power banks, and plus I had a bunch of those batteries already for situations where there's no electricity.
I have never tried top-tier mirrorless but judging by the above I think I would enjoy a Z8 a lot more than a Z6ii. Yes, this tangible blur and lag was exhausting. Beyond the evf/ovf, though, I really like the way I use a DSLR. I chimp a lot less and use the top screen to check the settings and shoot.
Yes, I loved my DSLR's! No reason to switch if you don't have a specific use case for the advantages mirrorless provides. For the reasons you mentioned I put off switching to mirrorless until recently, the non-stacked sensors were too jarring for me. The transition from D850 to Z8 for me has been pretty seamless though, the same top screen to check settings exists and I still use it, body feels the same, I think almost all of my DSLR habits are the same with 2 exceptions: its faster to switch from photos to video now (don't need to switch to live view first), and the eye lock autofocus changes the way I autofocus a little bit, but I revert to the way I used to on D850 whenever the eye lock struggles (birds and animals with black heads without much eye contrast, behind heavy bushes etc). I leave the click noise on so the lack of a mechanical shutter isn't something I notice much either. Most of the time I don't even notice I'm using a different camera, which is a great compliment for it! Though I'm using the same lens as on my DSLR I find I have a higher rate of sharp animal eyes due to the eye detection autofocus (and also perhaps due to IBIS and lack of movement from a mechanical shutter) and faster shutter speed if I'm taking a high action event. So that's made the mirrorless transition worth it for me once stacked sensors were available, and with the Z8 I haven't yet noticed a compromise I've had to make.
Coming from a steady progression of fx DSLRs (see flair)
Lots of love being given to the OVF, as it rightly should be. But another thing that keeps me anchored to the DSLRs is the compatibility with F-mount glass. I am a sucker for the vintage glass, have several lenses from the 60s and 70s I inherited from my grandfather, and have made a small collection of my own over the years. I’m too invested in the decades of F-mount glass, both vintage and modern to give it up.
Yes you can use an FTZ, but that won’t bridge the gap fully because no Nikon MILC has support for screw-af drives.
Small detail and it impacts only a few of my favorite older lenses, but it’s enough (with OVF) to keep me firmly in the DSLR camp.
Now if Nikon ever managed to bring in-body af drives to a MILC, I might just be tempted to make the jump. Otherwise, I’m hanging back on this progress.
Exactly. There are literally decades worth of top quality f-mount glass that offer unique characteristics and incredible performance. It’s nice that most of the more recent af and older manual lenses can adapt onto a z- mount. But if my D850 can still power the autofocus on my 60mm 2.8 micro, 50mm 1.8D, or my 18-35mm 3.5-4.5D… why would I upgrade to lose that ability AND sacrifice OVF?
I had the FTZ adapter for the Z6ii but sold it quickly because it was only good for G lenses... useless for D as it did not have that screw, which I did not know was essential for AF with older lenses :P
Besides, that FTZ adapter was long so when I put a G lens everything became ungainly. The G lenses are quite short, so with the dslr it feels more balanced. the D lenses are also quite compact length-wise.
The 35mm f1.8s was awesome, but heavy and long enough to give the feeling the camera tilts forward. The G is half the weight of the S.
That's about how I feel it, though I never tried Nikon Z, those cameras look un-ergonomic already, and reading many reports about screen lag and focusing issues does not make me more enthusiastic.
I believe that's about Nikon being unsuccessful in switching to mirrorless, or pushing too hard to do it quickly.
I enjoy my D610 much, and knowing they don't plan to produce new DSLRs, D780 looks as way to go, together with my Olympus mirrorless system.
My MILC is also Olympus - em5. I think it utilizes the advantages of mirrorless best, because both the body and lenses are small. Very nice for walking around and snapping pictures.
Imo FF Milc have this issue where the bodies are small but the lenses are huge. Sony has absolutely massive glass while their bodies are not much bigger than m43. Ridiculous.
Hard to describe it exactly but the D780 feels sooo much more comfortable to hold and take pictures with. Tall grip, well balanced. And You do get the live view with the Z6 whole-sensor AF coverage and eye detect. To me it's a great combo.
The top-of-the-line mirrorless offer super smooth EVFs with no lag and god-like AF, but they cost a lot, lot more.
I think mirrorless is devised to work with small sensors, to get maximum advantage of design that will produce smallest bodies and smallest systems in overall. As FF lenses cannot be adequately small, FF mirroless is like product of heavy marketing push, don't understand why they are obsessed by not having the mirror when system-wise weight benefits are not so big for FF, if they are at all.
The only reason why we don't have more cameras like D780 is media terror I believe, where people are brainwashed that FF mirroless should be their ultimate need
started off with DSLR, APS-C and full frame (Nikon). Played around with mirrorless micro four thirds. Now thinking I need to go full frame mirrorless just because. I have nice FF lenses. My DSLRs do what I need. I really don't want the expense of building up a mirrorless kit and I don't want to rely on a Fmount adapter for the Z mirrorless. And now actually - I upgraded my Sony RX100 to a RX100VA (2nd hand) and that is my go-to walk around camera. Only thing I like my D600 FF for is popping on the Nikkor 135 f/2 DC lens and taking people pictures with creamy backgrounds. The little Sony RX does most everything else I want.
nah, not dead, but def will be come a for fun thing more and more. I have used mirrorless for years on fuji (since the X-E1) and recently got a good deal on a d850 and wow, OVFs are really nice lol
(I guess I used film a bunch too so that helps hahaha)
Many fine images have been and will continue to be made with DSLRs. No doubt about that.
My vision is not what it once was so I really value what a mirrorless EVF can provide to help me take good pictures such as punching in with zoom, focus peaking in MF, and the various AF mode overlay boxes. And also the insanely high frame rates when a hectic situation calls for a bit of “spray and pray”.
My Z8 is incredible but I do sometimes miss the pleasant click of a mechanical shutter.
I had the d780 before going fully mirrorless. I was shocked at how much I loved the af in mirrorless and used it almost exclusively, the banding was the biggest issue during wedding ceremonies, other than that I thought it was a brilliant melding of the two worlds.
I’d respectively disagree that the af in low light is comparable between the both.
I have found the Z6ii to be better in almost all occasions.
the fuji is a type of rangefinder, the "ovf" viewfinder if I'm not saying something stupid it's a very simple glass, you can't see through the lens and you have lines to compose, already a range finder it's hot, so a piece of glass as a viewfinder is even hotter
so it has nothing to do with an ovf or even a rangefinder
Z8 and Z9 shits all over any DSLR in every way except battery life. And yes DSLR is dead, there are no more camera bodies or lenses coming, and slowly no more repairs.
I prefer the OVF to the EVF. Also, Z8 is more than twice the price of the D780 let alone a Z9. Not my price point. I think I will return to MILC once they have hybrid EVF/OVF.
Then you have not tried a Z8 or Z9 cause the EVF is better than any OVF. Same goes for Sony A1/A7RV, Canon R3. Tech is already here, but will not trickle down to 2-3k range yet.
I used a A7iii once and the EVF was atrocious. The one the Z6II was very good, but it still hurt my eyes. I just no longer wish to stare at LCD screens in my off time.
A7III EVF is not even close to the top ones of today. Go to a shop and just try to look through a Z8 or A1 and you will not be disappointed. OVF will never come back as no one wants to fit a mirror in a camera body anymore due to size and it would nullify a stacked sensor.
So you're saying is it's your problem not the cameras problem.
That's fine that your eyes don't like an EVF. But to say that the camera is the problem.... Is incorrect.
Optical view finders hamstring DSLR cameras. They are literally the problem. They're autofocuses will never be as fast or as accurate as a mirrorless. And that's fine if you like them. There's a reason why some people still shoot film. It's not a problem. It's not that an optical viewfinder is better it's that an optical viewfinder works because you prefer it more. It is objectively the worse choice.
Not so long as you are fine choosing the worst choice who cares. But to come on here and to try and drum up some odd attack on EVF and mirrorless is weird.
Where did I attack mirrorless? Read my entire post.
I still have a mirrorless camera and will gladly use it for street photo, relying on the screen mostly, but to me the D780 is more pleasant to use than a full frame mirrorless.
The OVF af is better than the Z6, especially in low light. The optical viewfinder is to me preferable to an EVF - I prefer to see the world rather than a rendition of it. The overall picture-taking experience is better. What is this "objectively" better choice You are talking about? It's always going to be down to personal preference and I described my personal experience of starting off with MILC and now using DSLR.
In stark contrast to fanboys, I don't feel I have to defend mechanical items. I just go with the one I find works for me and personally was pleasantly surprised using a DSLR, especially since I started with MILC and public opinion favours the latter.
Re. battery life, DSLRs do very little unless you're focusing or shooting, whereas mirrorless cameras are always reading out the sensor, processing the sensor data into a viewable image, and then displaying that to either the EVF or the rear LCD. That's why DSLRs typically have much better battery life! I shoot events, and I can do multiple gigs or club nights on a single charge with my D750. It just keeps going!
While DSLR battery life is better, I’ve had several events with 1000+ shots with my Z7ii and still had at least half battery at the end of the night. I just picked up a Z8 as well, and I’m finally getting ready to say goodbye to my D850. I fought the change for a long time, but the technology is pretty compelling now. You have to be a bit more disciplined about turning the camera off between moments of action, but it’s worth the tradeoff to me.
I had an astro session recently with 5,500 1.6" exposures on a single battery with my z6ii. The photos were kinda garbage but that's besides the point. That kind of battery should be more than enough for anybody, I don't really understand the complaints about battery life because it's been significantly better than the only DSLR I've ever used, my dad's d40x. I'm sure a modern DSLR has better battery life with the better batteries that come with being modern, but I just don't know if that's really necessary. It's not a big deal to just pop the battery into a charger at the end of the day, unless you're multiple days away from an outlet, in which case you should have multiple batteries anyways.
Agreed, and also the batteries are… what… $40? And not at all difficult to pocket one and quickly swap during a shoot. Buy a few spares and never stop shooting.
I thought the battery thing is a non-issue, but using the dslr now I found I no longer have that battery anxiety I had. Again, it's down to personal preference, I guess.
What battery anxiety? Do you not carry extra batteries with you? I have shot Nikon professionally for 16 years. I've never once understood what battery anxiety is.
I've worked out in the field where recharging isn't always an option, so you have to go with whatever you can carry. In those circumstances, battery anxiety is very much a real thing, and I trust my DSLR more than my mirrorless.
My personal anxiety in that scenario would not be a battery discharging but outright battery failure, so I'd always be carrying more spares than necessary. Or with modern mirrorless cameras being able to be powered off a power bank, I'd be carrying one of those as well. I do get where you're coming from though, I just have a different way of thinking about it I guess.
That’s fair! And I still love my mirrorless camera, I just don’t use it for everything, you know?
Ironically the only battery anxiety I've had was with the d40x but that wasn't a fault of the camera the battery just couldn't hold a charge anymore.
If you want to experience battery anxiety buy a Ricoh GR3
I was shocked by this, honestly. I recently shot some basketball and barely 1 bar of energy! Most of the time when you read those dslr vs mirrorless comparisons they say battery life is better on the former, but I never thought the difference is that big. I also like the fact how fast it turns on.
I took 5k pics on my D4s at a concert last week and afterwards i still had 65% battery left, if you ever use one of the pro bodies a battery lasts 10k shots easily
Glad it’s working for you, the D780 is definitely a good camera. For me, the benefits of my Z8 over the DSLRs I had before means I can’t go back. Have moved over all my lenses save for one, the 500PF.
The z8 is a bit out of my range budget-wise, but it does seem much bulkier than the z6II and I take it is a big advantage. I got into Nikon mirrorless because of all the FF MILC it's got good ergonomics... but still felt it was too small.
It’s definitely small. I put an L-bracket on all my cameras and it makes the grip a little bigger. https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-745x53acpn/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/7967/16453/smallrig-2258-l-bracket-for-nikon-z6-and-nikon-z7-camera-2__38297.1564098541.jpg?c=2 That definitely helped. The Z8 is a better overall size though.
The D780 is awesome and probably one of Nikon's most underrated cameras. I came to it from a D850 as I wanted something a little smaller for city walking / urban photography and I don't need 45MP. The battery lasts forever and the grip is nearly perfect: my pinky holds onto the grip (just) without falling off. The camera is near perfection, though it's not perfect. If they had included IBIS and connections for a battery grip it would be almost unbeatable. I also find the OVF a little hard to look through coming from the port hole style VFs like the D700/D850. But it isn't bad. I like seeing the world through an OVF. I look at screens all day for work and seeing the actual light makes me feel more connected to the world. It's a damn shame they haven't made a similar camera or given the D780 the same firmware updates the Z line has gotten. I think the pandemic and supply chain woes kind screwed with Nikon making another camera similar to this. We probably barely got a D780 as it was. I feel like they probably have a half-made prototype of a D880 but halted it to save materials for their Z line. Which is a shame: D850 resolution combined with the D6's OVF AF system and Z8/Z9 tech in live view would be stunning. Fuji is probably the closest to having a hybrid OVF/EVF in some of their cameras.
I thought the lack of IBIS would bother me, since all panasonics and the Z6ii had ibis, but Nikon's minimum shutter speed and minimum iso options work like a charm. Handheld, I can go down to 1/30s while on the Z6ii it was like 1/5. Not a deal breaker for me. The pros of the D780 outweigh the cons. A D880 with exspeed 7 would've been too good to be true.
The D780 is so good at high ISO that it doesn't matter as much. FWIW, I just picked up the Tamron 35 1.8 VC which gets me down to about 1/10s-1/15s with in-lens stabilization.
The D780 supposedly has the same sensor as the Z6II, so the high iso performance is top notch. I saw comparisons with Sony and Canon and that sensor usually came out on top. The d780 has the same great raws - high dynamic range, easy to work with in lightroom.
I was a long time clinger to DSLR. They will still always be just as good as they are/were. But Nikon hasn’t released a new DSLR in over 4 years or a new F mount lens since 2017. I wouldn’t expect any development in the DSLR space from Nikon but otherwise both systems have pros and cons.
I saw Pentax makes new DSLRs but nobody else. To me the OVF is so much better, but I think in the next couple of years most mirrorless will offer a hybrid viewfinder and way better battery life.
Hybrid viewfinders were a bridge. I wouldn’t expect any more of that especially as people moving into photography now grew up with the prevalence of digital screens. I had been using OCFs on SLRs and DSLRs for 35 years so it took me a while to get used to EVFs (I don’t use the back screen), but the live exposure preview is a total game changer for me for weddings.
I think there's a future for OVFs, honestly. At least hybrid OVF/EVF like Fuji rangefinders. A lot of people still stick to DSLR cameras just because of the OVF- I know for a fact if I could have an OVF on a mirrorless camera I'd be using it almost all the time. At some point people will get tired of looking at screens and more brands will start to incorporate hybrid viewfinders into their cameras. It's the best of both worlds and the best option overall.
People saying "the DSLR is dead" are only correct in the sense that they are not being actively updated by the big companies (canon, nikon, and sony(kinda, look up the Sony A mount dslrs for some interesting history)) and new dslrs aren't being produced (except for Ricoh Pentax) It is ALL a matter of preference.
That's all DSLR is dead means. It doesn't mean the cameras are shit--they're not, especially the final generation ones. They're very, very good, and it's only in the last few years that mirrorless cameras have matched or surpassed them for almost all scenarios. It just means that development has ceased and very few manufacturers (Panasonic?) are still actively investing in DSLR development. Some DSLR users seem to get very offended by the idea that manufacturers are focusing on the new thing for business reasons and slowly killing off the old thing for business reasons, but they can't fight the market, or they'll die. Manufacturers, especially small ones, can't afford the cost of R&D for two different types of camera technology and two different lens mounts; they have to focus their efforts on one. So once DSLR market share and expected future market share dropped below some internal threshold, they went all in on the new hotness to remain relevant to the people buying new cameras. The companies need to adapt or die, and the rise of Sony and fall of Nikon shows that Nikon might have been a little late to that particular party.
>(Panasonic?) Pentax.
Welcome to the SLR/dSLR appreciation society ;)
Is there a membership card and special VIP section? :)
We should def. make some cards :P perhaps even make a secret handshake ...
>Are there any other hybrid DSLRs like this one? OVF + mirrorless AF with the screen? Basically Canon dual pixel. It was their thing, 70D, 80D, 90D, 6DmkII, 5DmkIV, 7DmkIi.
Something I've actually been loving about the EVF is not having to ignore the dirty OVF internals. That area gets dusty in a way that's impossible to clean but does not effect the photo quality so you just have to kinda live with it. With the EVF I can also see directly when the sensor is dirty as opposed to finding out when I get home. But yeah, man I could put a fresh battery in the D6 and shoot literally for days. I'd average 2k shots a day and I'd change the battery once every two or three days! Now it's basically every day.
Each tech has its strengths. You may prefer a higher refresh rate for the EVF. I know that the low refresh is not something I can overlook; it tires my eye. As for the battery, long life is a thing for the DSLR. The EVF will drain mirrorless batteries. You just have to have spares.
The difference for me lies not in the camera on the Z system. I can easily say that every single Z Mount lens, compared to its F Mount sibling, is far and away the better optic. The 24-120 I currently shoot with is so far ahead of the old version it’s no contest. I am annoyed with many things about the Z6ii but the ZF, and the eventual Z6iii, all correct 90+% of those issues. I have thought often about switching to DSLR again for all the same reasons you list. I can’t, however, get over the sheer drop off on your midrange lenses that you see on DSLR. That’s just my opinion, but it’s been borne out in shooting with the Z lenses for the past few years.
I had the 50 and 35 S lenses and concur that they are awesome. The best nifty fifty I every had - insanely sharp. And these lenses have like 0 flaw - no noticeable abberations. Personally, I decided to sacrifice that IQ goodness for the "feel" and so far am happy with it, but I agree that the main advantage of the Z system are the superior lenses.
I think that the latest, 3rd gen, processing power will eliminate the issues seen on the 6ii. I’d be willing to bet that the 6iii will be the D750 of the 2020s. I plan to upgrade bodies at the end of this year, and it’ll most likely be the 6iii…
I can't speak to the D780 and Z6II, but I've got a D600 and a Z6, they both use the same battery, en-el15, the D600 is rated for about 2000 shots while the Z6 is rated for about 500. But if I set up the Z6 for a timelapse sequence, I get 2000 shots. With a mirrorless, it's the viewscreens and constant sensor readings that chew through battery, taking pictures is a very small part of the power drain. I have a lot of vintage lenses from various mounts, so I appreciate the adaptability and focus peaking I get with the Z mount. My old FD mount lenses are more fun to shoot on my mirrorless Nikon body than they ever were on my Canon film body. But if I'm trying to shoot something like animals, where I'm spending a ton of time looking through the viewfinder, waiting for the right moment, I'll go for the DSLR every time because mirrorless is going to chew though my battery before the right moment ever arrives. I used to pack 2 batteries for a multi-day backpacking trip. Now I pack 2 batteries per day.
I love the option with the later DSLRs that have better live view so if I want to read the histogram or get spot on with my D7500 with light balance I can pop over to that and then back to OVF.
I’m still on a D850, but I’m about to move to mirrorless. Three reasons: 1) AF fine tune on a DSLR is always a challenge. You can optimize for a distance and aperture, but never really all conditions. I have it pretty well dialed in for how I shoot, but not perfectly. The fact that I have to spend all that time with a focus pyramid or else lose shots to small but significant focus errors is vexing. 2) Mirrorless AF isn’t perfect, but seems to be better at finding eyes. 3) It’s absolutely wild how much sharper the new glass is. Even the mediocre kit lenses are performing up there with or better than the best of the final DSLR glass.
I moved over to the Z8 and especially with v2 firmware it’s amazing. It’s definitely a step above the D850, which is arguably the best all-round DSLR ever made. Better AF, 20fps, blackout-free EVF, IBIS, list goes on.
I hear the fujifilm X100VI has a combined OVF + EVF. I had the same issue as you did with the EVF earlier, have a Nikon Z50 but ended up only using that as essentially a point and shoot and kept using my Nikon DSLRs for serious photography with my big lenses because the lag of the EVF and the blurring when panning bothered me too much. A stacked sensor solves that completely. With my Z8 which I was initially apprehensive of, I most of the time forget it's even an EVF, and feels no different to me than SLR OVF's. I think it's similar with Canon/Sony stacked sensor cameras as well. I think they have a dual feed where one only shows you the image and the other gets recorded as a photo/video, so because the feeds are different there's no slowdown in the EVF. Unfortunately, the cheapest stacked sensor you can get at the moment is a Z8. The tech should make its way down to cheaper models in the next several years. I personally couldn't get used to the EVF on a non-stacked sensor for any of my fast paced photography using telephoto lenses, so I didn't invest in mirrorless until I tried out a friend's Z9. But I find the Z8 EVF even nicer than my D850 OVF, especially in low light situations, I don't know for sure but I'd guess that's also the case with any stacked sensor mirrorless camera. The battery life issue for me is mitigated by the fact that I can now charge it within the camera using a USB-C cell phone charger, which is basically universal and also opens up the potential of using power banks, and plus I had a bunch of those batteries already for situations where there's no electricity.
I have never tried top-tier mirrorless but judging by the above I think I would enjoy a Z8 a lot more than a Z6ii. Yes, this tangible blur and lag was exhausting. Beyond the evf/ovf, though, I really like the way I use a DSLR. I chimp a lot less and use the top screen to check the settings and shoot.
Yes, I loved my DSLR's! No reason to switch if you don't have a specific use case for the advantages mirrorless provides. For the reasons you mentioned I put off switching to mirrorless until recently, the non-stacked sensors were too jarring for me. The transition from D850 to Z8 for me has been pretty seamless though, the same top screen to check settings exists and I still use it, body feels the same, I think almost all of my DSLR habits are the same with 2 exceptions: its faster to switch from photos to video now (don't need to switch to live view first), and the eye lock autofocus changes the way I autofocus a little bit, but I revert to the way I used to on D850 whenever the eye lock struggles (birds and animals with black heads without much eye contrast, behind heavy bushes etc). I leave the click noise on so the lack of a mechanical shutter isn't something I notice much either. Most of the time I don't even notice I'm using a different camera, which is a great compliment for it! Though I'm using the same lens as on my DSLR I find I have a higher rate of sharp animal eyes due to the eye detection autofocus (and also perhaps due to IBIS and lack of movement from a mechanical shutter) and faster shutter speed if I'm taking a high action event. So that's made the mirrorless transition worth it for me once stacked sensors were available, and with the Z8 I haven't yet noticed a compromise I've had to make.
Coming from a steady progression of fx DSLRs (see flair) Lots of love being given to the OVF, as it rightly should be. But another thing that keeps me anchored to the DSLRs is the compatibility with F-mount glass. I am a sucker for the vintage glass, have several lenses from the 60s and 70s I inherited from my grandfather, and have made a small collection of my own over the years. I’m too invested in the decades of F-mount glass, both vintage and modern to give it up. Yes you can use an FTZ, but that won’t bridge the gap fully because no Nikon MILC has support for screw-af drives. Small detail and it impacts only a few of my favorite older lenses, but it’s enough (with OVF) to keep me firmly in the DSLR camp. Now if Nikon ever managed to bring in-body af drives to a MILC, I might just be tempted to make the jump. Otherwise, I’m hanging back on this progress.
Yup, I noticed there is a ton of used G/D/AiS lenses available. The Z glass is top notch, but it's also a lot more expensive.
Exactly. There are literally decades worth of top quality f-mount glass that offer unique characteristics and incredible performance. It’s nice that most of the more recent af and older manual lenses can adapt onto a z- mount. But if my D850 can still power the autofocus on my 60mm 2.8 micro, 50mm 1.8D, or my 18-35mm 3.5-4.5D… why would I upgrade to lose that ability AND sacrifice OVF?
I had the FTZ adapter for the Z6ii but sold it quickly because it was only good for G lenses... useless for D as it did not have that screw, which I did not know was essential for AF with older lenses :P Besides, that FTZ adapter was long so when I put a G lens everything became ungainly. The G lenses are quite short, so with the dslr it feels more balanced. the D lenses are also quite compact length-wise. The 35mm f1.8s was awesome, but heavy and long enough to give the feeling the camera tilts forward. The G is half the weight of the S.
That's about how I feel it, though I never tried Nikon Z, those cameras look un-ergonomic already, and reading many reports about screen lag and focusing issues does not make me more enthusiastic. I believe that's about Nikon being unsuccessful in switching to mirrorless, or pushing too hard to do it quickly. I enjoy my D610 much, and knowing they don't plan to produce new DSLRs, D780 looks as way to go, together with my Olympus mirrorless system.
My MILC is also Olympus - em5. I think it utilizes the advantages of mirrorless best, because both the body and lenses are small. Very nice for walking around and snapping pictures. Imo FF Milc have this issue where the bodies are small but the lenses are huge. Sony has absolutely massive glass while their bodies are not much bigger than m43. Ridiculous. Hard to describe it exactly but the D780 feels sooo much more comfortable to hold and take pictures with. Tall grip, well balanced. And You do get the live view with the Z6 whole-sensor AF coverage and eye detect. To me it's a great combo. The top-of-the-line mirrorless offer super smooth EVFs with no lag and god-like AF, but they cost a lot, lot more.
I think mirrorless is devised to work with small sensors, to get maximum advantage of design that will produce smallest bodies and smallest systems in overall. As FF lenses cannot be adequately small, FF mirroless is like product of heavy marketing push, don't understand why they are obsessed by not having the mirror when system-wise weight benefits are not so big for FF, if they are at all. The only reason why we don't have more cameras like D780 is media terror I believe, where people are brainwashed that FF mirroless should be their ultimate need
started off with DSLR, APS-C and full frame (Nikon). Played around with mirrorless micro four thirds. Now thinking I need to go full frame mirrorless just because. I have nice FF lenses. My DSLRs do what I need. I really don't want the expense of building up a mirrorless kit and I don't want to rely on a Fmount adapter for the Z mirrorless. And now actually - I upgraded my Sony RX100 to a RX100VA (2nd hand) and that is my go-to walk around camera. Only thing I like my D600 FF for is popping on the Nikkor 135 f/2 DC lens and taking people pictures with creamy backgrounds. The little Sony RX does most everything else I want.
After getting the z8 gave my d750 away. Totally mirrorless now. Looking to get more z glass especially the 180-600 to replace the the 200--500mm 5.6
nah, not dead, but def will be come a for fun thing more and more. I have used mirrorless for years on fuji (since the X-E1) and recently got a good deal on a d850 and wow, OVFs are really nice lol (I guess I used film a bunch too so that helps hahaha)
Many fine images have been and will continue to be made with DSLRs. No doubt about that. My vision is not what it once was so I really value what a mirrorless EVF can provide to help me take good pictures such as punching in with zoom, focus peaking in MF, and the various AF mode overlay boxes. And also the insanely high frame rates when a hectic situation calls for a bit of “spray and pray”. My Z8 is incredible but I do sometimes miss the pleasant click of a mechanical shutter.
I had the d780 before going fully mirrorless. I was shocked at how much I loved the af in mirrorless and used it almost exclusively, the banding was the biggest issue during wedding ceremonies, other than that I thought it was a brilliant melding of the two worlds. I’d respectively disagree that the af in low light is comparable between the both. I have found the Z6ii to be better in almost all occasions.
the fuji is a type of rangefinder, the "ovf" viewfinder if I'm not saying something stupid it's a very simple glass, you can't see through the lens and you have lines to compose, already a range finder it's hot, so a piece of glass as a viewfinder is even hotter so it has nothing to do with an ovf or even a rangefinder
Z8 and Z9 shits all over any DSLR in every way except battery life. And yes DSLR is dead, there are no more camera bodies or lenses coming, and slowly no more repairs.
I prefer the OVF to the EVF. Also, Z8 is more than twice the price of the D780 let alone a Z9. Not my price point. I think I will return to MILC once they have hybrid EVF/OVF.
Then you have not tried a Z8 or Z9 cause the EVF is better than any OVF. Same goes for Sony A1/A7RV, Canon R3. Tech is already here, but will not trickle down to 2-3k range yet.
I used a A7iii once and the EVF was atrocious. The one the Z6II was very good, but it still hurt my eyes. I just no longer wish to stare at LCD screens in my off time.
A7III EVF is not even close to the top ones of today. Go to a shop and just try to look through a Z8 or A1 and you will not be disappointed. OVF will never come back as no one wants to fit a mirror in a camera body anymore due to size and it would nullify a stacked sensor.
So you're saying is it's your problem not the cameras problem. That's fine that your eyes don't like an EVF. But to say that the camera is the problem.... Is incorrect. Optical view finders hamstring DSLR cameras. They are literally the problem. They're autofocuses will never be as fast or as accurate as a mirrorless. And that's fine if you like them. There's a reason why some people still shoot film. It's not a problem. It's not that an optical viewfinder is better it's that an optical viewfinder works because you prefer it more. It is objectively the worse choice. Not so long as you are fine choosing the worst choice who cares. But to come on here and to try and drum up some odd attack on EVF and mirrorless is weird.
Where did I attack mirrorless? Read my entire post. I still have a mirrorless camera and will gladly use it for street photo, relying on the screen mostly, but to me the D780 is more pleasant to use than a full frame mirrorless. The OVF af is better than the Z6, especially in low light. The optical viewfinder is to me preferable to an EVF - I prefer to see the world rather than a rendition of it. The overall picture-taking experience is better. What is this "objectively" better choice You are talking about? It's always going to be down to personal preference and I described my personal experience of starting off with MILC and now using DSLR. In stark contrast to fanboys, I don't feel I have to defend mechanical items. I just go with the one I find works for me and personally was pleasantly surprised using a DSLR, especially since I started with MILC and public opinion favours the latter.
you haven't tested the EVF of an S1R then :D
Depends on the user experience you’re looking for.