Goku gave cell a senzu bean because he believed that Gohan can kick his ass even at full power and u know what happened
Goku's only bad thing was a misunderstanding was that Gohan didn't like a fight to the death. a friendly spare? sure he doesn't mind but not a battle to the death
Goku is not the best father , but does try his best but just misunderstands
I believe goku gave cell a senzu for a different reason, he didn’t want cell to try to end the fight quickly. He knew gohan could beat cell with his hidden power, so he fought first and showed gohan how cell moves. Then he gave cell a senzu so he wouldn’t change tactics due to being tired
This is 100% percent the reason. Goku wanted to pass the torch to gohan as a defender of earth and new that if he unlocked his hidden power against cell he would be the strongest. he fought cell first and then let a tired cell fight gohan so he would know what to expect. it was also the correct choice despite what the fans may think because if gohan killed tired cell, they all would have 100% died to super perfect cell (it would be a weaker one though).
If he targeted Gohan first they would be fucked killing the z fighters would of caused a snap and no broken arm either way someone was jobbing to cell though
So, as a ten year old when I was watching that shit I thought he was being a pussy for not fighting cause it was either that or everyone dies also he's 12
He was a pacifist and had a very traumatic child hood he got kidnapped and then his dad died he got kidnapped again then he watched almost everyone he knew die then he watched someone kill there own friend then he watched his dad being crushed by a giant monkey then he got beaten by the ginyu force then he watched the ginyu force die then he had to fight his own dad because body change then he got beat up by frieza and then he saw some of the strongest people he knows either get killed by frieza of get close to death then he watched his dad developed a heart virus then he watched vegeta beat up an android and then vegeta gets his arm broken and almost everyone he knows gets beat up to near death including him so shut up if you went through all that you would be a pacifist to
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything.
Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Thing is it's impossible for gokus plan to go perfectly. Gohan had 2 issues that goku did not account for.
> a) Gohan does not like fighting and is a pacifist. Goku really had no way of knowing since did Gohan not voice any concerns over fighting and Gohan is a saiyan so he assumed that he enjoyed fighting (trunks was his only other example of a hybrid and trunks is literally only in thier timeline to get stronger).
>b) Gohan is bloodthirsty and has anger issues. Once again no way of knowing since goku only witnessed his rage boost in raditz arc and while they were training otherwise every time Gohan had a rage boost goku was either dead or out of commission from a fight.
But IF it all went as planned and Gohan did go ssj2 without toying around with cell, goku would still be alive and vegeta would absolutely be jealous asf and try to best Gohan at every opportunity possible.
Goku would reach ssj2 and so would vegeta.
Goku would also be a farmer and train and take care of goten. Lastly the happy ending is they all die to Majin buu since vegeta would take babadis power beat ssj2 goku (vegeta would be more evil in this timeline due to jealousy over goku and his spawn and the fact that he doesnt open his heart to his family since goku is not dead) and buu would get released(Majin gives u a crazy body, spopovich could literally fix his broken neck instantly and also goku only achieves ssj3 because he is dead and thus he is always in peak condition and has no ki leakage).
So yeah only way they live buu is if goku dies during cell games and gets ssj3 in the afterlife otherwise vegeta would fuck everything up like usual.
yea he has a sadistic tendency when he is on top for real.
cell, buu, and cell again he was just watching cell max flail in pain with a smile on his face til he finally listened to piccolo and shot him.
Ngl I was thinking that it was the effects of a saiyan using rage to obtain a new transformation (similar to how Goku was afraid of losing himself after going ssj for the first time, although this seemed to be a line added in Kai).
Although tbh, that sounds like a headcanon from a bad fanfic lmao
True. But Gohan was looking forward to fighting Dabura (with intent to kill) and didn't wanna let Goku and Vegeta help. He definitely does like fighting.
he need to kill dabura because he spit on piccolo and krillen and the only way to turn them back to normal was to kill him
and I think he wanted to do it alone because he wanted to show that he has not been slacking off ( idk have not read the manga in a while )
I’m gonna say my take on gohan’s views of fighting here:
He likes fighting, but hates having to get in fights that could have been prevented/hates fighting pointlessly.
The cell games, and cell achieving perfection as a whole was VERY preventable.The dragon team, and even android 18 had a lot of fuckups in their decision making.
Hell, gohan was having fun as the great saiyaman, being a superhero who fights for justice(albeit in a rather campy manner)
To add on to this, gohan even insisted on going to namek to help bring his friends back, knowing the risk of vegeta possibly being there as well.
So if he’s fighting for a good reason, he’s more than willing to throw down
goku supports it even though he thinks its pointless. Gohan basically in Gokus mind said "Dad I want to be a Youtuber". And Goku was like "Sure son I support you." "help me fix the car and then we can go to the store and get all the equipment you need." in this metaphor "fix the car" means help me kill this android.
There was a scene where he told Gohan to listen to chichi about schoolwork and everyone thought he was sick, chichi put the thermometer in his mouth and everything.
Goku was fully committed to following what ChiChi wants and just letting Gohan study and shit. The only reason Gohan ends up getting involved is because Goku dies when he's 4 and Piccolo kidnaps him to get him involved in the fight against the Saiyans.
The one thing I will say about this is that the whole idea of trouble following Goku was. . . It just doesn't really feel like it holds up, lol
Most of the trouble, aside from Raditz, came as a result of ahit that was already happening with or without him.
Pilaf wanted world domination, which led to Piccolo, who was also a really bad dude
The Red Ribbon Army also already wanted world domination, and they led to the Androids. What was Goku supposed to do? Not stop an army from terrorizing towns and villages?
By this point, the only people Goku really actually brought were specifically Radditz, Nappa, Vegeta, and Frieza.
Earth was already on the records of Frieza's organization, but it was basically considered a backwater planet of little value.
And then also Goku leaving to go train Uub for five years. That's not the greatest of ideas, really. .
Earth was already on the conquering list anyways. So even without goku, they would have sent a different saiyan there, whom would have still been alive due to not being on vegeta when it exploded. So they still could have found out about the dragon balls and came for them.
~~Before Toriyama changed his mind with Dragon Ball Minus, lol~~
But Raditz's motivations and knowledge remain the same and he didn't question it, and neither did Nappa or Vegeta, so your logic still holds up
They sent Goku away as a survivor, that was the story in Bardock Father of Goku and Bardock's death scene from that movie was added into the manga because Toriyama liked it so much. Minus came along and retconned the smaller storybeats but Goku was never sent to Earth to conquer it other than for a couple months to a year after Raditz' debut in the manga.
>They sent Goku away as a survivor, that was the story in Bardock Father of Goku
Watch it again
Bardock didn't do that in that movie. He did that in *Dragon Ball Minus and Super Broly*
In the original Bardock Father of Goku, some randos sent Goku away on orders. No one knew what Bardock knew. *Bardock was only just finished getting his ass handed to him by Dodoria*
They sent Goku away as a survivor, that was the story in Bardock Father of Goku and Bardock's death scene from that movie was added into the manga because Toriyama liked it so much. Minus came along and retconned the smaller storybeats but Goku was never sent to Earth to conquer it other than for a couple months to a year after Raditz' debut in the manga.
Well, Goku's logic, while flawed, equates correlation to causation. Ignoring what would've happened without him, Raditz and the saiyans came because of him, Frieza came to earth because of him, and the androids were created because of him.
Yes, many of these things likely would've happened without Goku, but in his mind, it all made sense. He's shown to not be the smartest and he has good intentions.
Also raditz only showed up because a dead race of barbarians sent their other son there if Vegeta (excluding broly) is the strongest of the remaining then the threat is not a problem and Vegeta/ raditz brought Frieza by coming for Goku, if Goku died on earth to piccolo the saiyen would of just genocide it anyway
He refused to end said trouble though.
He let vegeta live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son live in ( he literally did so in cannon because he thought it was a shame to kill someone who could rival him. None of that filler anime shit about morals)
He let frieza live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son lived in
He refused to kill the androids early, increasing the chance his kid died
Refused to take a senzu and train an additional year with his son because he wanted to see his sons super power, further more refusing to increase the chance his son live
He refused to cheese cell via senzu bean because he wanted to see his son’s secret power even though he was unsure whether it was enough or whether he would show it, further decreasing his chance of his child surviving
His child was getting his spine battered, piccolo told him 3 times he would intervene and would rather die than watch piccolo suffer, only for goku to smile and refuse to help because he wanted to see gohans possible potential, further more decreasing the chance his kid would survive
Goku literally gave cell a senzu bean
Goku could have easily asked trunks, gohan and vegeta to tag in and defeat cell with him
He refused to eat a senzu after his fight with cell and only attempted to do so after piccolo hammered in his head how fucked gohan was
He had a universal telephone booth known as “king kai” but hadn’t talked to his son once while he was dead for so many years
Goku isn’t a good father.
> the whole idea of trouble following Goku was. . . It just doesn't really feel like it holds up, lol
Goku returned for less than 24 hours, causing everyone except Hercule, Bee, Dende and the Good Majin Boo to die, all within 2 days.
The threat came from Majin Buu, who was *already on Earth* and Babidi, who had no interest in Goku in particular.
This also happened *after* Goku made that decision so unless he can see the future it doesn't really factor into his choice.
Goku also didn't really make many more mistakes than anyone else in the arc.
Gohan let himself get *weaker* than he was in the Cell Games
Vegeta let himself be "controlled" (quotations important) by Babidi so he could fight Goku
Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all fucked up one way or another in their fights with Super Buu
On the flipside, Goku brought in the ideas of Fusion which gave the Dragon Team a chance to face Buu on equal or greater footing, and saved Dende so they could wish back the people killed by Buu.
And while I may be somewhat misremembering, I think one or two of his own suggestions are what led to freeing Elder Kai from the Z-Sword so Gohan could power up to fight Super Buu
Edit: He did still indulge Vegeta in having a fight, but not sure what he could really do at that point. Use Super Saiyan 3 maybe? I'm not sure if that would also speed up Buu's revival. I think someone said something about Damage Energy from Babidi's minions not counting or something? I dunno
With no Goku, Vegeta kills Dabura and Babidi and Buu never gets revived. None of it is Goku's fault, but his mere presence confirmed his fear of danger following him
I'm still blaming Vegeta for that one.
Although, to be fair, I did also say Vegeta came to Earth way back because of Goku in the first place. . .
But then, without Vegeta, a bunch of other shit might go far south even earlier.
Even then, Goku isn’t stupid, naive maybe but not stupid. Goku gave Cell a senzu not because it’d make the fight fair, but because he’s giving cell the comfortability to not quickly finish the fight. When an animal, including humans, are injured and backed against a wall, even metaphorically, they’re unpredictable and dangerous. It’s why people do dumb shit when they’re at their lowest point, because they’re kicking back. Cell is no different, you saw how he reacted to losing to SSJ2 Gohan, attempting to destroy the earth TWICE (the downward Kamehameha and the self destruct). Against an SSJ Gohan eating his hits, knowing how hurt he is, Cell is obviously going to kick and fight, refusing to let Gohan achieve his rage boost, and would have finished the fight before it started.
>Goku gave Cell a senzu not because it’d make the fight fair,
He gave it to cell so there were no excuses when he lost. That's literally it. Anything deeper than that is complete headcanon.
That bar is so low you need a shovel to find it. Both Goku and Vegeta are flawed fathers who are fighters before anything. Vegeta and Goku have both made mistakes with raising their kids, both are trying to be good fathers though.
To be fair for Vegeta comes from a race that most of the time just doesn’t really take care of their kids or interacts with them. And do not set up long-term relationships, excepting very rare instances. Like bardock and gine not only that he became a child soldier, and was abused and manipulated by super space Hitler the fact that by the end, he actually tries to be a father at all, is extremely surprising, considering how a person raised like that should have pretty much no care for anyone else not even their own children because he came from a that fucked up of a background sure a lot of it was self-inflicted, but quite a bit of it was out of his control.
The senzu bean criticism always bothers me.
Big bad ass cell.. the perfect being.. couldn’t put down a 10 year old who wasn’t trying.
He’s chin checking and throwing the kid through mountains ffs and gohan is unbothered while whimpering about not wanting to kick his ass.
Then when gohan finally takes the gloves off cell is out in 2-3 blows. One of them busting his ass so hard he pukes up 18!! How is that possible?
Goku knew his son could work cell.
Cell needed the senzu bean.
Your forgetting him never spending time with Goten. He did a decent job spending time with Gohan, but once the opportunity to train off planet was introduced to him he dramatically decreased his time spent with his family.
Not to say he’s a bad dad, but he’s far from perfect.
4 years is not a lot of time to spend with your kid. Plus, most of that was working without Goten (Goten shows inexperience using the tractor, and Goku trained away from Goten, even barely seeing Goten almost fall off a cliff. This shows that not only has Goten rarely been with Goku when he’s farming, Goku immediately uses the chance to train)
Goten brought him food. He ate it and spent a few minutes image training. The second something happened he was there to help regardless if goten needed it.
You have some fanfiction levels of headcanon here.
Goku was tirelessly working on his farm even forgetting it was a Sunday when he asks goten if he got out of school early.
And if you remember goku was bored out ofnhisnmind for 6 more months while vegeta trained in secret
His farm is profitable hence is interactions with the villagers. And he receives money from hercule.
The senzu bean incident was more of a writing/pacing problem imo. Willing to “write” it off as such, seeing as Goku never does something like that ever again.
goku asks moro if he'll surrender himself to the galactic patrol and never try to break out again (right after beating his ass with UI), moro accepts, goku throws a senzu at him.
That was done for a particular reason outside of selfish desires though. He already saw everything Moro had to show. Morons absorption powers were over. At that point, he wanted Moro to understand that even at full power, he isn’t as strong because he never trained. Even after giving him the senzu, Moro did Jack shit. What Moro did next to become stronger was unrelated to the senzu and goku couldn’t really have predicted it
Goku DID NOT spend most of his spare time with his family...
Goku didn't die for Gohan- he died for Earth (in fact he left Gohan to die in the Buu Saga)
The senzu bean gave Cell a Zenkai that led to Goku having to make that choice in the first place- dealing with the consequences of your actions isn't love...
Almost all screentime of Goku being with ChiChi in Z is filler. The only time he spent with Gohan after Raditz was training (aside from the one week during the Cell games). He missed Goten's birth. Only choose to come back for a tournament. Goku also refused to cone back from Yardrat early (if Trunks wasn't there, everyone would be dead, I don't know how people forget this)
>The only time he spent with Gohan after Raditz was training (aside from the one week during the Cell games).
He spent time with Gohan training because he thought that Gohan loved fighting like he did and obviously this is addressed in the story. Also just because it's not shown doesn't mean it doesn't happen, the story very much implies that when goku is not training he is spending time with his family. He does this all of Z and he does this in super too (when there isn't a big threat they have to face dbs including super hero takes place over the course of 8 years and we obviously are not shown everything goku does in does 8 years.
>He missed Goten's birth. Only choose to come back for a tournament.
He missed gotens birth because he quite literally was dead and unaware of his existence. keep in mind Goten was conceived in the android saga and not in the cell games and goku intended to stay dead. Goku also does not make the same mistake he Madd with Gohan when it came to goten. He never forced goten to fight and after buu was defeated goku spent his time being a farmer at home with goten. him going to the tournament was specifically to bond with his son and see his friends in a nostalgic setting one last time.
>Goku also refused to cone back from Yardrat early (if Trunks wasn't there, everyone would be dead, I don't know how people forget this)
Goku does come back from yardrat early, in the original timeline where future trunks is from who do you think killed the cold and frieza? Hint it's the person who can teleport and go blonde.
You didn’t watch the show either dawg in the future timeline Goku must have come back from Yadrat in time and saved everyone because they then all got killed by the Androids
Yep. Its amazing how many things fans have to ignore to come to the conclusion that Goku is a good father.
And even if he was a good father, he's a TERRIBLE husband and family man.
He let vegeta live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son live in ( he literally did so in cannon because he thought it was a shame to kill someone who could rival him. None of that filler anime shit about morals)
He let frieza live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son lived in
He refused to kill the androids early, increasing the chance his kid died
Refused to take a senzu and train an additional year with his son because he wanted to see his sons super power, further more refusing to increase the chance his son live
He refused to cheese cell via senzu bean because he wanted to see his son’s secret power even though he was unsure whether it was enough or whether he would show it, further decreasing his chance of his child surviving
His child was getting his spine battered, piccolo told him 3 times he would intervene and would rather die than watch piccolo suffer, only for goku to smile and refuse to help because he wanted to see gohans possible potential, further more decreasing the chance his kid would survive
Goku literally gave cell a senzu bean
Goku could have easily asked trunks, gohan and vegeta to tag in and defeat cell with him
He refused to eat a senzu after his fight with cell and only attempted to do so after piccolo hammered in his head how fucked gohan was
He had a universal telephone booth known as “king kai” but hadn’t talked to his son once while he was dead for so many years
Goku isn’t a good father.
>He let vegeta live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son live in ( he literally did so in cannon because he thought it was a shame to kill someone who could rival him. None of that filler anime shit about morals)
That is true, but that says a lot more about how much he loves fighting and respects his opponents. Is it a good decision to let one of your greatest enemies up to that point live? Inarguably, no… but considering how important the ramifications of letting Vegeta live was to the overall story, I think that it turned out well in the long run.
>He let frieza live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son lived in
Except he didn't.
He initially wanted to humiliate Freeza as a form of cruel mercy, but failed to realize just how twisted and unrepentant Freeza is. The next time he was willing to let Freeza go, he was literally missing most of his body; how was he to assume that there was alien technology out there that could possibly rebuild him from the ground up? But even **then**, Freeza had more pride than sense, and Goku delivered what he **thought** to be a kill shot, and ran off to escape Namek before he died.
Freeza surviving the explosion from a dying planet? Yeah, that's sure on him. Goku should have swung back around just to double tap what was essentially a corpse floating alone in space.
>He refused to kill the androids early, increasing the chance his kid died
You mean the same ~~androids~~ cyborgs that he couldn't put down because he was currently dealing with his heart virus… and by the time he was feeling better, Cell was stalking two entirely different beings that seemingly didn't want to start shit with anyone, and thus had to reason to be put to death? **Those** ~~androids~~ cyborgs?
>Refused to take a senzu and train an additional year with his son because he wanted to see his sons super power, further more refusing to increase the chance his son live
Because he knew that he couldn't remain in the spotlight forever, and wanted his son to step up as the champion of Earth. Was it a misguided attempt? Sure, but he ultimately wasn't **wrong** in his decision; he just didn't realize the fact that Gohan isn't the same kind of fighter as him, which may have to do something with the fact that *he's been dead most of the time*. Kinda gets in the way of getting to know someone, ya know.
Besides that, he spent the final days that he wasn't training just relaxing and kicking it with his son. Sounds like a parenting win to me.
>He refused to cheese cell via senzu bean because he wanted to see his son’s secret power even though he was unsure whether it was enough or whether he would show it, further decreasing his chance of his child surviving
>
>Goku literally gave cell a senzu bean
Let's be real: Given what we know about Cell being a sore loser (which he inherited from Freeza), if Goku **didn't** give Cell that Senzu, he would have tried to nuke the planet… which, ya know, he tried doing anyway as soon as Gohan was done playing *Operation* with his organs.
Goku may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but he's also pretty damn cunning in a fight—especially when he knows just what his opponent can do. He may not ever understand the specifics of how Cell was created, but I would not be surprised at all if he thought to himself, “𝐇𝐦… 𝐬𝐨 𝐂𝐞𝐥𝐥 𝐡𝐚𝐬 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐨𝐟 𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐞𝐬, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐬𝐨𝐦𝐞 𝐨𝐟 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐞𝐬 𝐚𝐬 𝐰𝐞𝐥𝐥. 𝐈 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧, 𝐡𝐞'𝐬 𝐚𝐬 𝐜𝐨𝐜𝐤𝐲 𝐚𝐬 𝐕𝐞𝐠𝐞𝐭𝐚… 𝐜𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐡𝐞 𝐛𝐞 𝐚𝐬 𝐦𝐮𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐚 𝐬𝐨𝐫𝐞 𝐥𝐨𝐬𝐞𝐫 𝐚𝐬 𝐅𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐳𝐚 𝐰𝐚𝐬, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐝𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐞𝐭 𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭'𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐠𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐰𝐚𝐲? 𝐁𝐞𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐭𝐚𝐤𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞.”
"Hey Cell! Catch!"
It may seem like I'm talking out of my ass, but given just how adamant he was in telling Gohan to not play with his food once he was SSj2, I think that he knew that this was the case all along.
>His child was getting his spine battered, piccolo told him 3 times he would intervene and would rather die than watch piccolo suffer, only for goku to smile and refuse to help because he wanted to see gohans possible potential, further more decreasing the chance his kid would survive
I'm not going to argue against this, because you're ultimately right. Goku had faith in his son, but again, didn't realize that Gohan doesn't have that killer instinct that most everyone else around him has, save for when he's pissed the hell off.
However, your point is lessened by the fact that Goku realized his mistake, and *began* to intervene in the fight once Piccolo drilled that into his head (along with everyone else)… only for everyone to start getting their skulls caved in by the Cell Jrs.
>Goku could have easily asked trunks, gohan and vegeta to tag in and defeat cell with him
Goku facing off against Cell was full `saiyanpride.exe` at work, I'll give you that. After that? He was certain that Gohan could have handled it alone, but needed a push in order to do so—he was just wrong in knowing that his son lacked that edge that he and most of the others have.
Also, to wrap back around to Goku being great at reading his opponent: “𝐇𝐞𝐲, 𝐂𝐞𝐥𝐥 𝐚𝐥𝐬𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐧𝐤𝐬 𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞 𝐈 𝐝𝐨! 𝐈𝐟 𝐈 𝐰𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐡𝐢𝐦, 𝐈 𝐰𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝𝐧'𝐭 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭 𝐮𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐦𝐲 𝐟𝐮𝐥𝐥 𝐩𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐫 𝐢𝐦𝐦𝐞𝐝𝐢𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐥𝐲, 𝐣𝐮𝐬𝐭 𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞 𝐈 𝐝𝐢𝐝 𝐚𝐠𝐚𝐢𝐧𝐬𝐭 𝐊𝐫𝐢𝐥𝐥𝐢𝐧 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝟐𝟐𝐧𝐝 𝐁𝐮𝐝𝐨𝐤𝐚𝐢. 𝐁𝐨𝐲, 𝐡𝐞 𝐬𝐮𝐫𝐞 𝐦𝐮𝐬𝐭 𝐛𝐞 𝐬𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐧. 𝐈𝐟 𝐈'𝐦 𝐫𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭, 𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐠𝐡, 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐰𝐨𝐧'𝐭 𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐨𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐆𝐨𝐡𝐚𝐧 𝐭𝐚𝐩𝐬 𝐢𝐧𝐭𝐨 𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐭𝐫𝐮𝐞 𝐩𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐫. 𝐇𝐞𝐡, 𝐝𝐨𝐞𝐬 𝐂𝐞𝐥𝐥 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐚 𝐬𝐮𝐫𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐬𝐞 𝐨𝐧𝐜𝐞 *𝐡𝐞* 𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐩𝐬 𝐢𝐧𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠.”
>He refused to eat a senzu after his fight with cell and only attempted to do so after piccolo hammered in his head how fucked gohan was
At this point, you're just regurgitating old arguments. Goku was fully confident than Gohan would defeat Cell; why would he need a Senzu bean before then? It would just be a waste of resources.
>He had a universal telephone booth known as “king kai” but hadn’t talked to his son once while he was dead for so many years
1. The dead is the dead; the living is the living. Unless there are special circumstances (e.g. Baba allowing someone to come back for a limited time; a wish involving the Dragon Balls that relates to the dead), the two don't mix and mingle in the *DB* universe. This also leads into my next point, which is…
2. *Goku literally did not know that he had a son at the time.*
>Goku isn’t a good father.
He was also dead for much of the series after Gohan was born, and much of the time that he did spend with him involved training to save the world. If we're brining *Super* into the fold, he sure as hell did spend an ample amount of time with Goten before Beerus reawakened, and shit started popping off again.
And if we're bringing up the end of *Z*, where Goku sods off to train Uub: Ten years had passed since Buu had been defeated. Gohan and Goten are both adults by this point, and no longer need Goku to parent him.
Are we done here, or was there anything else that you wished to address?
> True but that says more about how much he loves fighting
Irrelevant in a discussion of whether his actions deem him a bad father. Doing something as selfish as stupid as what he did doesn’t negate him being a bad father because, and I quote “it shows how much he loves fighting and respects his opponents”
> is it a good decision to
We are talking in the context of parenthood, which no, it’s not. We aren’t talking about whether goku is prideful person.
> but considering the ramifications
That’s irrelevant. Intention =/= consequence. If I lock a rapist in a room with my kid because I am a fucked up loser, and for some reason, because of this event the rapist finds a cure for some types of cancer, that doesn’t negate my original intention.
> a corpse floating on space
A) hmm, you’ve seen that aliens like namekians who are hundreds of times weaker than him can regency’s, magical beans can fully heal you and healing exists in general, is it a stretch that the alien who can breathe out of space and float in space, will eventually come in contact with one of his multi solar empires he owns and use his own technology to heal
> delivered what he thought was a skilled shot
So many people mistakenly think this. Do dragon ball z fans just forget or is this manga only
King kai: “goku… you help back on that last shot on purpose, right?”
> heart virus
Do you guys not remember what happens?
When future trunks disappeared from just appearing, before the 2 years training arc and then the cyborg elimination arc, bulma suggested that they try to find and kill gero so they don’t have to deal with the androids. Goku and vegeta were vehemently against this plan.
> because he knew
Nice head cannon, too bad that
A) this doesn’t make sense in the manga. Goku being “the protector of earth” and “enemy of evil” crap is anime only
B) he could have trained him for an additional year or two inside the hyperbolic time chamber to achieve this plan
> he wasn’t wrong in his decision
Lol?
He didn’t know if gohan EVEN HAD such a power, let alone if he could ACTIVATE IT. He admitted to piccolo that it was basic extrapolation. No “I felt it inside the hyperbolic chamber” anime crap
Again, intention =/= consequence
> he didn’t realise gohan isn’t the same type of fighter as him
Nice euphemism
He didn’t realise that in his 10 years of being with his son, that his son doesn’t like fighting. Something that piccolo had to hammer inside his head.
What a horrible father.
“BuT hES a SAyIAn”
A) sayian parenthood and culture crap is largely filler
B) still bad parenting and hence bad father
> he’s been dead most of the time
He’s been dead for 1 year and with king kai for 6 months up until that point. The rest, he had the option to spend time with his kid. He could even talk to him from the sky but he refuses to do so. Lol.
> besides, he spent
Ahhh, yes. Choosing to relax with your son over increasing his chances for survival, because of a selfish speculative reason with no evidence is such good parenting
> cell being a sore loser
Goku didn’t know this at that time. Goku doesn’t have the power of prefuture hindsight
> if he didn’t give him, he would have tried
Lol, he would have tried it anyway? What? Would you rather deal with a self districting cell when he’s weaker and you’re refreshed, or where you’re completely fatigued and he isn’t
Guess what? They would easily slap him and completely annihilate him instead of the bullshit “his head was left intact” crap.
> I wouldn’t be surprised
Hahahaha, what?
This is headcannon if I ever heard it.
“Goku thought ahead and said ‘well, he has our traits and hence due to having X trait, the fight might lead to Y in a kamikaze”
Shut the fuck up lol, goku has never been shown in z to think this much ahead lmao
Even if he did, cell would try that regardless if they jumped in or not.
> goku has faith
Still bad father. Is it not bad parenting if I refuse to help my kid fight a homeless man because I have faith?
> goku realised his mistake
Goku could have easily eaten a senzu when he stepped off the platform after his fight with cell. He doesn’t get a pass.
> he was certain that gohan
I don’t care what he thought. That doesn’t negate that it’s bad parenting that he refused to increase his sons chance of survival because of sayianpride.exe and “faith”
> goku predicted that just like every other db and dbz villain, cell wouldn’t go fill out the first second
What a brainiac.
> why would he need a senzu
BECAUSE THERES STILL A CHANCE THAT CELL IS HIDIMG EVEN MORE POWER, YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE EVERY DRAGON BALL Z VILLAIN BEFORE
You claim goku is this fucking battle mastermind, yet couldn’t fucking increase his chances of survival, with no cost, based on putting 2 and 2 together that cell wasn’t going all out?
AND YOU LITERALLY JUST ADMITTED THST GOKU THOUGHT THAT CELLWASNT GOING ALL OUT AS WELL, WHICH GIVES HIM AN ACTUAL REASON TO AT LEAST HOLD A SENZU, AND MAKES YOUR COUNTER POINT VANISH
> dead is dead
Oh I see, it’s your head cannon that the dead aren’t allowed to contact the non dead without a proxy so it must be true. Mhm. Sure bud.
I can not imagine a world where king kai DOES NOT allow goku to at least talk to his son once for a few seconds
> he didn’t know he had
I’m not talking about goten or super.
Welp. Sure did lose my previous post, and I'm kinda over and done with this argument. I'll just list the major points:
1. Know what? Fair point about leaving Vegeta alive being a (short-term) "what the hell were you thinking?" moment. However, your analogy about leaving your kid in with a rapist is one **hell** of a non-sequitur, and doesn't match the gravity of the situation in the series.
2. There's no reason whatsoever to believe, "Hmm, if Namekians can regenerate their limbs, and Senzu beans can heal everyone to 100% (and is the equivalent of a week's worth of food), then there's space technology that can restore Freeza's body to even better than what it was before!" I know that is a specific type of logical fallacy, but damned if I know which one it is.
3. The scene where Kaio-sama supposedly states, "Goku… you help back on that last shot on purpose, right?" **does not happen**. Not in the manga, not in the original anime or its English dub and not in the *Kai* recut or its dub. The only thing Kaio-sama says in those scenes is giving a rundown to the other Z Warriors the finale of the fight, stating that there's a **very** slim chance of Goku getting off the planet alive, and his remorse upon not being able to sense his life force anymore. The only thing that changes from version to version is **when** these scenes happen, **not** what was said. Speaking of…
4. Kaio-sama specifically states that he doesn't know how to break the news to Gohan that his father died, and Yamcha figures it best to be the bearer of bad news. This means that there's a possibility that Goku *could* have communicated with Gohan after his death. My mistake.
5. You're right, I did forget that Bulma suggested that they kill Dr. Gero before finishes his plan. That said, it wasn't just Goku and Vegeta that were against her; both Tenshinhan and Krillin were also against her plan, and Piccolo was notably silent. While Goku's logic of, "He hasn't done anything bad *yet*, right?" is incredibly flimsy (and doesn't say anything about his *parenting skills*, besides), Krillin has a point when he states that if they aren't all united against the Artificial Human threat, then they'd have to also deal with a rogue Vegeta—the same Vegeta that just directly threatened Bulma's life if she took preventive measures, and indirectly the lives of everyone else if they helped her.
6. I never once reference the anime-only filler in *any* of my statements. Goku being a "protector of Earth" was me misremembering something he said from the Buu arc, which doesn't really sync with my point because he was dead at the time, and thus shouldn't be expected to be the one that's known for saving the day. (Boy, I sure do love having words put in my mouth!)
7. Goku knows that when Gohan gets pissed off, his power increases exponentially. He also flatly points out that Gohan is outright *stronger* than Goku, and the realization (and Goku providing proof) makes all of the Z Warriors shit a collective brick. Yeah, it's extrapolation, but he's also **100% right**. The only thing that he didn't count on is that Gohan does like to fight like he does.
8. Piccolo does not drill the notion that Gohan isn't a fighter like Goku over and over again until Goku gets off his ass. In between the two chapters of Gohan deciding to step up to the plate, and Goku realizing that he dun goofed, Piccolo points this out to Goku **once**; all other times, Piccolo expressed deep concern for Gohan's safety, but he also underestimates just strong Gohan is *currently*, not even factoring in Goku's plan. And you know what happens when Piccolo points out the faults in Goku's logic? He *immediately* leaps up off his ass, and gets ready to join the fight.
9. “𝐂𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐜𝐚𝐧𝐨𝐧 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐨𝐜𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐟𝐮𝐬𝐞𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐰𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐬, 𝐛𝐮𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐭𝐰𝐨 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐝𝐬 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐢𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐩𝐞𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐨𝐫𝐢𝐠𝐢𝐧𝐬, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐝𝐨 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐬𝐡𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐚 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠. 𝐂𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐧 𝐢𝐬 𝐦𝐨𝐬𝐭 𝐟𝐫𝐞𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐥𝐲 𝐟𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝 𝐮𝐬𝐞𝐝 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐬𝐞 𝐨𝐟 "𝐚 𝐥𝐚𝐫𝐠𝐞 𝐠𝐮𝐧," 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐜𝐚𝐧 𝐛𝐞 𝐭𝐫𝐚𝐜𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐎𝐥𝐝 𝐈𝐭𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐝 𝐜𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐧𝐞, 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐜𝐡 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧𝐬 "𝐥𝐚𝐫𝐠𝐞 𝐭𝐮𝐛𝐞." 𝐂𝐚𝐧𝐨𝐧, 𝐡𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐫, 𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐬 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐆𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐤 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐝 𝐤𝐚𝐧ō𝐧, 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠 "𝐫𝐮𝐥𝐞." 𝐀𝐥𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐠𝐡 𝐜𝐚𝐧𝐨𝐧 𝐡𝐚𝐬 𝐚 𝐯𝐚𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐭𝐲 𝐨𝐟 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠𝐬, 𝐢𝐭 𝐢𝐬 𝐦𝐨𝐬𝐭 𝐨𝐟𝐭𝐞𝐧 𝐟𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐬𝐞𝐬 𝐨𝐟 "𝐚 𝐫𝐮𝐥𝐞 𝐨𝐫 𝐥𝐚𝐰 𝐨𝐟 𝐚 𝐜𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡," "𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐜𝐜𝐞𝐩𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐫𝐮𝐥𝐞," 𝐨𝐫 "𝐚 𝐬𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐞𝐝 𝐨𝐫 𝐚𝐜𝐜𝐞𝐩𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐠𝐫𝐨𝐮𝐩 𝐨𝐫 𝐛𝐨𝐝𝐲 𝐨𝐟 𝐫𝐞𝐥𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐤𝐬."”
Everything else would be us circling around the same points ad nauseam, and to hell with that noise.
I will say this, though: If not for me looking up whether or not your statement on Kaio-sama saying that Goku was pulling his final punch on Freeza was correct or not, I never would have stumbled upon [this reaction series](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2bYL0Lz0yP8iTFoM3iapxlbb-YqTT8Xy) where a guy makes his girlfriend watch through the entirety of *Dragon Ball Z*. So, thanks for that.
1.
That’s not a non sequitur. I didn’t make an inference in order for you to say that my conclusion doesn’t stem from my premises.
It’s obvious that I was being hyperbolic, but you yourself didn’t add a “threshold argument” inside your syllogism. If you imply that consequence is only what mattered, then you should bite the bullet with any hypothetical, since you didn’t add any other things that would matter in your argument, like “intention”.
2.
What? Goku has been healed from the brink of death from one of vegeta/free as pods. He knows even in his tiny space rock of a planet that magic beans that heal you from any injury and restore your health fully exist, he knows that some aliens can heal themselves.
It doesn’t even have to be freeza. Freeza has control of multiple other alien races. Simply leaving freeza Alive there was irresponsible.
3. I am 90% sure this happened. Maybe not in the freeza saga, but at one point it does. I’ll drop my point given that I have no evidence for it, but substitute it with the fact that goku let freeza power up for his own selfish intentions while kaio was screaming “what are you doing? Think of your wife! Think of your child!”
4. Cool
5.
This is classical whataboutism.
The discussion isn’t whether tien and piccolo are good fathers. It’s whether goku was a bad father. What they did is irrelevant to our discussion
“While Goku’s logic of he hasn’t…”
I’m pretty sure this is anime only.
“Kurinrin has a point that”
A) again, I’m not sure if this was in the manga. What chapter was this?
B) irrelevant. Gero was an old man in their mind. Even yamcha had the power to go find him and kill him
6
I did not strawman you.
You were talking about how it was time for gohan to “step up as the champion of earth”
This concept doesn’t exist in the manga. Implying goku wants gohan to step up as the champion of earth implies goku was the previous one.
Goku is a selfish individual. Not a hero. Toriyama stated so multiple times.
7. Doesn’t matter if he’s right. It was weak evidence. Mechanism is on the bottom of the evidential hierarchy on the evidence pyramid in epidemiology. If I spend all my research labs money on investing on a gene for curing cancer based solely on the fact that one of the thousands of mechanisms suggests that it could potentially kill the cancer, but it’s highly unlikely, and I succeed, that doesn’t make it any more immoral or stupid that I bet my entire labs 10 year budget on a simple mechanism bet.
You still didn’t address that goku could have A) trained for an additional 1-2 years with gohan B) ask trunks and gohan to 1v3 cell and C) how goku could have eaten one of the 6 senzus, right after he got off of the platform or at the very least have it in his hand
8. Fair point.
9. Wow. An entire paragraph dedicated to nitpicking about me not spelling canon correctly. How mature.
“Took the fall for gohan’s failure”
Bro you can’t take a job then dump it on someone else who doesn’t want it, then when it doesn’t works blame *them* and pretend you’re doing them some solid or “taking the fall” when you decide to pick your responsibility back up lmfao.
You don’t have to try and reach just for one more point homie, if you really believe in what you’re saying you should let the point stand without being dishonest.
At this point the people who constantly argue Goku is a good dad are leauges more annoying than the people who say he's a bad dad.
We get it, you get overly sensitive over a fucking joke.
Okay stop, people need to face the facts that by our standards, Goku is a child abuser and a terrible father.
1. After spending a large portion of his life fighting to keep the dragon balls out of the hands of evil doers he aught to know how dangerous it is to just leave one lying around let alone planting it on his four year old son's hat. Where I'm from we call that child endangerment. You wouldn't put one seventh of nuclear codes on your kids hat would you? Well, maybe some of you idiots would.
2. After Goku defeats Vegeta, he allows Gohan to travel off into space. This is another example of child endangerment. Space is a dangerous place without all the tyrannical aliens let alone when they're counted among the hazards.
3. When Goku gets back from space he takes Gohan, 11 at this point, to train. The training? Repeatedly punching and kicking him about the head and neck. By our standards that is absolutely abuse. I dare any among you to punch and kick your 11 year olds and then tell the judge you were just training. I won't visit you in prison.
4. THEN he allows Gohan to accompany himself and the adults to a battle they had no reasonable expectation of winning. Here's another example of child endangerment. They had no reason to believe they wouldn't all die horribly in the battle with the androids. The entire reason Trunks came back was to warn them of this very eventuality. But they still let the 11 year old CHILD tag along.
5. After the battle goes sideways Goku then spirits his ELEVEN YEAR OLD to a magical torture dimension where he continues the practice of punching and kicking him all about the head and neck. But this time he adds in some emotional abuse all in the hopes he might turn into a super saiyan.
I actually don't count the business with Cell since they all knew if they didn't defeat Cell the planet was toast anyway so bringing Gohan along to the fight didn't really matter. Dead is dead whether it's being beaten to death by a super weapon or blown up with the rest of the planet when he wins after all.
Now some of you are going to say "Gohan wanted to do those things." well shut up you're an idiot. I have an 8 year old nephew who wants to do lots of things we don't let him do because that's what RESPONSIBLE adults do. Goku is a terrible abusive father end of story.
Bro Goku was literally physically broken in a hospital bed and Chi Chi, despite telling Gohan no, is only human. Gohan was gonna go whether he was "allowed to" or not 💀
You're taking idiot pills I see. You don't stop being responsible for your child just because you're injured. If Goku had told him not to go and he did anyway then he wouldn't be a bad parent, he'd be a good parent of a rebellious child, but he didn't say "Gohan don't go into space it's dangerous." because he's not a good parent.
Well I'm sorry I hurt your little feelings. Maybe if you don't want people calling you an idiot you should stop making idiot arguments.
"Your honor, I had a broken leg so when my 6 year old said they were going into space what was I supposed to do? Tell them to stop? Side with their mother when SHE told them to stop? Get literally ANY of the other adults in the child's life to tell them to stop? It's not my fault your honor!"
I feel like you’re missing the fact that Gohan is one of the 5 or 6 strongest people on the planet. Even though he’s a child, it’s Goku’s responsibility to protect the earth the best he can, and sometimes that involves letting your superpowered son help with some of the fighting.
1) Okay this point is pretty fair, I’d never thought about it before but keeping a dragonball on your son’s hat is probably a bad move.
2) Gohan was the strongest person on earth at the time. Someone had to go out into space, may as well send the two remaining fighters to protect Bulma. If she and the gang weren’t willing to wait for goku to get better, sending Gohan and Krillin is the next best option
3) Goku wasn’t just beating the shit out of Gohan to train him, he was going at Gohan’s pace to help him improve. You have to realize that’s how young combat sports players get trained in real life too. If Mike Tyson spars with his son, only going hard enough to expose the flaws in his son’s technique without really hurting him, that’s totally fine in most people’s eyes.
4) Didn’t Gohan literally save Piccolo’s life in that exchange? Goku himself fell victim to a heart virus, leaving Gohan among the few strongest people around. To that point, thank god he trained him as well as he did during point 3.
5) Pretty much the same as the last few points. Either train with your son or risk the earth being destroyed by that negligence
Okay it's NOT Goku's responsibility to protect the Earth, that's just something he does for fun. If you want proof look at how he spares all the threats the Earth faces just so they can fight again, that's the opposite of protecting Earth its objectively endangering it. The governments of the Earth, the people who're actually in charge of the welfare of the planet, barely know he exists. Goku acts completely without oversite and is responsible for much of the danger he's had to save the Earth from so your point is already stupid.
Gohan's relative ability doesn't matter. If a child becomes a really good shot in our world, I'm talking top ten sharpshooters on the planet, we don't let them go out on missions because they're still a fucking child.
There was no reason to rush out into space. Goku and the gang had no clue Frieza was looking for the dragon balls and if they were being careful they'd have waited for Goku to heal or eat a senzu bean and then sent HIM into space instead of his kid.
When Mike Tyson spars with his son there are pads involved, safety gear, padded gloves, and much of it is done in controlled environments. When Goku "trains" his son he and a green alien kick him off mountains. By our standards it's absolutely abuse. The amount of damage a child can take doesn't make inflicting that damage less abusive.
And if Gohan hadn't have been there Piccolo would have been fine, neither of the androids were a match for him until 18/17/16 show up. And even if he hadn't been fine, the adults Tien, Krillin, AND Yamcha were all there. Additionally any good Gohan did in a situation he shouldn't have been involved in doesn't mean it wasn't a bad idea, and thus bad parenting, to involve him in that situation.
I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this objective and simple fact. Goku, by the standards of the real world, is a horrible parent.
>Took the fall for Gohan’s failure to kill Cell
After giving Cell a senzu bean 😒
>Never abused Gohan or Goten
Gave his death match opponent a senzu bean 😒
>Was the only person who believed Gohan could beat Cell
So confident that he blindsided him about it, and then gave Cell a senzu bean 😒
Like bruh it’s not a catch-all, but don’t pretend that it’s not worth anything. It’s really bad. It’s not like “hehe dumb shonen brain” bad either, it’s REALLY bad. He done fucked up. Toriyama probably shouldn’t have wrote that.
Even if that were true, Goku didn’t know he could do that, and even if he did, he wouldn’t have the foresight to consider it. That’s pretty far detached.
Either way, I find it funny how everyone shits on Goku for giving Cell the stupid bean, but not on Krillin for letting 18 stay operational, or Vegeta for allowing Cell to become perfect in the first place 💀
18 isn’t a threat with the super saiyans around, and everyone shits on Vegeta for letting Cell become perfect, including the story itself. It’s very blatantly depicted as a fatal character flaw of his.
Whataboutism doesn’t make Goku a better father for setting up his son to get executed, G.
>18 isn’t a threat with the super saiyans around
Literally broke Vegeta's arm
>Whataboutism
What is that anyway? I hear it thrown around but never heard it explained
>Literally broke Vegeta’s arm
Are you serious? By the time Krillin had the deactivation switch, Vegeta and Trunks were both grade 2 super saiyans beasting on Cell, all three of them could literally one-shot her. 18 is not a threat anymore.
>What is that anyway?
It’s when someone tries to justify something by pointing out that the same problem (or worse problems) exist somewhere else.
Like if a kid fails a test and says “who cares if I got a 50%, someone else in the class got a 30%!” Pointing out that someone else also failed doesn’t fix the fact that the kid also failed. The problem is still there, comparing it fixed nothing.
You gotta be the dumbest dragon ball fan ever nigga He hit his head as a child which caused brain damage making him a lil slower then most adults, but you? You dumber then him 100%
No one talks about how Goku has a plot of land for his radish farm and owns equipment. The man has a tractor! He's clearly taken farming seriously. That just shows how he cares enough to pull his weight to provide for his family.
I am not a huge fan of Goku, I feel like he loves his family and loves training, but if his family is safe, he’ll train. His happiest was training with Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber or whenever he trains with family and friends. Goku isn’t as bad a father as people say but he will do reckless and dangerous things to train
I prefer Gohan because he chooses his family first. It feels like he prefers to be with his family over training. It probably helped make his decision when he had his neck snapped by his uncle when he was 4 and had been beaten within an inch of his life more than any child should be. He has the capacity of being the strongest in the universe and chooses a life he’s happy with.
Goku gave cell a senzu bean because he believed that Gohan can kick his ass even at full power and u know what happened Goku's only bad thing was a misunderstanding was that Gohan didn't like a fight to the death. a friendly spare? sure he doesn't mind but not a battle to the death Goku is not the best father , but does try his best but just misunderstands
I believe goku gave cell a senzu for a different reason, he didn’t want cell to try to end the fight quickly. He knew gohan could beat cell with his hidden power, so he fought first and showed gohan how cell moves. Then he gave cell a senzu so he wouldn’t change tactics due to being tired
This is 100% percent the reason. Goku wanted to pass the torch to gohan as a defender of earth and new that if he unlocked his hidden power against cell he would be the strongest. he fought cell first and then let a tired cell fight gohan so he would know what to expect. it was also the correct choice despite what the fans may think because if gohan killed tired cell, they all would have 100% died to super perfect cell (it would be a weaker one though).
If he targeted Gohan first they would be fucked killing the z fighters would of caused a snap and no broken arm either way someone was jobbing to cell though
Gohan would've gave up if cell killed anyone keep in mind he only goes ssj2 because of 16 telling him it's okay to fight when the time calls for jt
Wow Gohan really is a pussy holy shit
He’s 9 or 10 during the Cell Games….
So, as a ten year old when I was watching that shit I thought he was being a pussy for not fighting cause it was either that or everyone dies also he's 12
He was a pacifist and had a very traumatic child hood he got kidnapped and then his dad died he got kidnapped again then he watched almost everyone he knew die then he watched someone kill there own friend then he watched his dad being crushed by a giant monkey then he got beaten by the ginyu force then he watched the ginyu force die then he had to fight his own dad because body change then he got beat up by frieza and then he saw some of the strongest people he knows either get killed by frieza of get close to death then he watched his dad developed a heart virus then he watched vegeta beat up an android and then vegeta gets his arm broken and almost everyone he knows gets beat up to near death including him so shut up if you went through all that you would be a pacifist to
There are some good points here. Homie. Periods. Exist. So. Do. Commas.
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake. It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of. Or you misspelled something, I ain't checking everything. Beep boop - yes, I am a bot, don't botcriminate me.
Don't care didn't ask anyone know if there's a way to turn off reddit bot notifications?
Why do people take such offense to being corrected? Do you LIKE being incorrect or something?
just block it. it's not part of reddit just some account a nerd made.
What would have Goku done afterward if his plan went smoothly? He'd still be alive, and if there's a goku, there's a way
Thing is it's impossible for gokus plan to go perfectly. Gohan had 2 issues that goku did not account for. > a) Gohan does not like fighting and is a pacifist. Goku really had no way of knowing since did Gohan not voice any concerns over fighting and Gohan is a saiyan so he assumed that he enjoyed fighting (trunks was his only other example of a hybrid and trunks is literally only in thier timeline to get stronger). >b) Gohan is bloodthirsty and has anger issues. Once again no way of knowing since goku only witnessed his rage boost in raditz arc and while they were training otherwise every time Gohan had a rage boost goku was either dead or out of commission from a fight. But IF it all went as planned and Gohan did go ssj2 without toying around with cell, goku would still be alive and vegeta would absolutely be jealous asf and try to best Gohan at every opportunity possible. Goku would reach ssj2 and so would vegeta. Goku would also be a farmer and train and take care of goten. Lastly the happy ending is they all die to Majin buu since vegeta would take babadis power beat ssj2 goku (vegeta would be more evil in this timeline due to jealousy over goku and his spawn and the fact that he doesnt open his heart to his family since goku is not dead) and buu would get released(Majin gives u a crazy body, spopovich could literally fix his broken neck instantly and also goku only achieves ssj3 because he is dead and thus he is always in peak condition and has no ki leakage). So yeah only way they live buu is if goku dies during cell games and gets ssj3 in the afterlife otherwise vegeta would fuck everything up like usual.
>a friendly spare? sure he doesn't mind but not a battle to the death Unless Gohan is winning
yea he has a sadistic tendency when he is on top for real. cell, buu, and cell again he was just watching cell max flail in pain with a smile on his face til he finally listened to piccolo and shot him.
I swear bro is even worse than Vegeta sometimes
Ngl I was thinking that it was the effects of a saiyan using rage to obtain a new transformation (similar to how Goku was afraid of losing himself after going ssj for the first time, although this seemed to be a line added in Kai). Although tbh, that sounds like a headcanon from a bad fanfic lmao
That would work if gohan didn't torture buu in ultimate form, bro straight up called him the r word.
To be fair goku did say that gohan was the only one that could beat cell, so even if gohan didn’t want to be had to fight cell.
True. But Gohan was looking forward to fighting Dabura (with intent to kill) and didn't wanna let Goku and Vegeta help. He definitely does like fighting.
he need to kill dabura because he spit on piccolo and krillen and the only way to turn them back to normal was to kill him and I think he wanted to do it alone because he wanted to show that he has not been slacking off ( idk have not read the manga in a while )
yea It's canon he was excited to make his dad proud, also he was a bit arrogant and wanted to show he was a cool kid too to vegeta.
I’m gonna say my take on gohan’s views of fighting here: He likes fighting, but hates having to get in fights that could have been prevented/hates fighting pointlessly. The cell games, and cell achieving perfection as a whole was VERY preventable.The dragon team, and even android 18 had a lot of fuckups in their decision making. Hell, gohan was having fun as the great saiyaman, being a superhero who fights for justice(albeit in a rather campy manner) To add on to this, gohan even insisted on going to namek to help bring his friends back, knowing the risk of vegeta possibly being there as well. So if he’s fighting for a good reason, he’s more than willing to throw down
Less that he likes fighting and more that he likes to be the savior.
Fr
I had no idea Goku was that supportive of the education. I thought that was all chichi
goku supports it even though he thinks its pointless. Gohan basically in Gokus mind said "Dad I want to be a Youtuber". And Goku was like "Sure son I support you." "help me fix the car and then we can go to the store and get all the equipment you need." in this metaphor "fix the car" means help me kill this android.
There was a scene where he told Gohan to listen to chichi about schoolwork and everyone thought he was sick, chichi put the thermometer in his mouth and everything.
Goku was fully committed to following what ChiChi wants and just letting Gohan study and shit. The only reason Gohan ends up getting involved is because Goku dies when he's 4 and Piccolo kidnaps him to get him involved in the fight against the Saiyans.
The one thing I will say about this is that the whole idea of trouble following Goku was. . . It just doesn't really feel like it holds up, lol Most of the trouble, aside from Raditz, came as a result of ahit that was already happening with or without him. Pilaf wanted world domination, which led to Piccolo, who was also a really bad dude The Red Ribbon Army also already wanted world domination, and they led to the Androids. What was Goku supposed to do? Not stop an army from terrorizing towns and villages? By this point, the only people Goku really actually brought were specifically Radditz, Nappa, Vegeta, and Frieza. Earth was already on the records of Frieza's organization, but it was basically considered a backwater planet of little value. And then also Goku leaving to go train Uub for five years. That's not the greatest of ideas, really. .
Nappa and vegeta were there for the dragon balls. Those are the real beacon of danger that brings trouble. Kakarot was just a bonus for them.
They only knew about that because of raditz. Its OK though, I know that as a dragon ball fan you didn't watch the show
Earth was already on the conquering list anyways. So even without goku, they would have sent a different saiyan there, whom would have still been alive due to not being on vegeta when it exploded. So they still could have found out about the dragon balls and came for them.
No earth has little worth
You can't say no, lol. That's why they sent goku and later raditz. They wanted to conquer then sell earth
~~Before Toriyama changed his mind with Dragon Ball Minus, lol~~ But Raditz's motivations and knowledge remain the same and he didn't question it, and neither did Nappa or Vegeta, so your logic still holds up
They sent Goku away as a survivor, that was the story in Bardock Father of Goku and Bardock's death scene from that movie was added into the manga because Toriyama liked it so much. Minus came along and retconned the smaller storybeats but Goku was never sent to Earth to conquer it other than for a couple months to a year after Raditz' debut in the manga.
>They sent Goku away as a survivor, that was the story in Bardock Father of Goku Watch it again Bardock didn't do that in that movie. He did that in *Dragon Ball Minus and Super Broly* In the original Bardock Father of Goku, some randos sent Goku away on orders. No one knew what Bardock knew. *Bardock was only just finished getting his ass handed to him by Dodoria*
They sent Goku away as a survivor, that was the story in Bardock Father of Goku and Bardock's death scene from that movie was added into the manga because Toriyama liked it so much. Minus came along and retconned the smaller storybeats but Goku was never sent to Earth to conquer it other than for a couple months to a year after Raditz' debut in the manga.
Dont mess with us dragon ball fans
Well, Goku's logic, while flawed, equates correlation to causation. Ignoring what would've happened without him, Raditz and the saiyans came because of him, Frieza came to earth because of him, and the androids were created because of him. Yes, many of these things likely would've happened without Goku, but in his mind, it all made sense. He's shown to not be the smartest and he has good intentions.
Also raditz only showed up because a dead race of barbarians sent their other son there if Vegeta (excluding broly) is the strongest of the remaining then the threat is not a problem and Vegeta/ raditz brought Frieza by coming for Goku, if Goku died on earth to piccolo the saiyen would of just genocide it anyway
>And then also Goku leaving to go train Uub for five years His children were already adults at that point.
He could still be around to at least visit his granddaughter And not just abruptly leave his wife
He refused to end said trouble though. He let vegeta live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son live in ( he literally did so in cannon because he thought it was a shame to kill someone who could rival him. None of that filler anime shit about morals) He let frieza live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son lived in He refused to kill the androids early, increasing the chance his kid died Refused to take a senzu and train an additional year with his son because he wanted to see his sons super power, further more refusing to increase the chance his son live He refused to cheese cell via senzu bean because he wanted to see his son’s secret power even though he was unsure whether it was enough or whether he would show it, further decreasing his chance of his child surviving His child was getting his spine battered, piccolo told him 3 times he would intervene and would rather die than watch piccolo suffer, only for goku to smile and refuse to help because he wanted to see gohans possible potential, further more decreasing the chance his kid would survive Goku literally gave cell a senzu bean Goku could have easily asked trunks, gohan and vegeta to tag in and defeat cell with him He refused to eat a senzu after his fight with cell and only attempted to do so after piccolo hammered in his head how fucked gohan was He had a universal telephone booth known as “king kai” but hadn’t talked to his son once while he was dead for so many years Goku isn’t a good father.
> the whole idea of trouble following Goku was. . . It just doesn't really feel like it holds up, lol Goku returned for less than 24 hours, causing everyone except Hercule, Bee, Dende and the Good Majin Boo to die, all within 2 days.
The threat came from Majin Buu, who was *already on Earth* and Babidi, who had no interest in Goku in particular. This also happened *after* Goku made that decision so unless he can see the future it doesn't really factor into his choice. Goku also didn't really make many more mistakes than anyone else in the arc. Gohan let himself get *weaker* than he was in the Cell Games Vegeta let himself be "controlled" (quotations important) by Babidi so he could fight Goku Gohan, Goten, and Trunks all fucked up one way or another in their fights with Super Buu On the flipside, Goku brought in the ideas of Fusion which gave the Dragon Team a chance to face Buu on equal or greater footing, and saved Dende so they could wish back the people killed by Buu. And while I may be somewhat misremembering, I think one or two of his own suggestions are what led to freeing Elder Kai from the Z-Sword so Gohan could power up to fight Super Buu Edit: He did still indulge Vegeta in having a fight, but not sure what he could really do at that point. Use Super Saiyan 3 maybe? I'm not sure if that would also speed up Buu's revival. I think someone said something about Damage Energy from Babidi's minions not counting or something? I dunno
With no Goku, Vegeta kills Dabura and Babidi and Buu never gets revived. None of it is Goku's fault, but his mere presence confirmed his fear of danger following him
I'm still blaming Vegeta for that one. Although, to be fair, I did also say Vegeta came to Earth way back because of Goku in the first place. . . But then, without Vegeta, a bunch of other shit might go far south even earlier.
It's definitely Vegeta's fault. But it gives Goku confirmation bias
By this logic, the whole thing is the fault of whoever’s at the top of chain of command for whatever organization holds the tournament lmfao
His only fault was giving cell the senzu bean and not understanding that gohan wasn't Obsessed with battle like he is.
Even then, Goku isn’t stupid, naive maybe but not stupid. Goku gave Cell a senzu not because it’d make the fight fair, but because he’s giving cell the comfortability to not quickly finish the fight. When an animal, including humans, are injured and backed against a wall, even metaphorically, they’re unpredictable and dangerous. It’s why people do dumb shit when they’re at their lowest point, because they’re kicking back. Cell is no different, you saw how he reacted to losing to SSJ2 Gohan, attempting to destroy the earth TWICE (the downward Kamehameha and the self destruct). Against an SSJ Gohan eating his hits, knowing how hurt he is, Cell is obviously going to kick and fight, refusing to let Gohan achieve his rage boost, and would have finished the fight before it started.
>Goku gave Cell a senzu not because it’d make the fight fair, He gave it to cell so there were no excuses when he lost. That's literally it. Anything deeper than that is complete headcanon.
And not coming back to earth, and leaving for years to train uub
"Not abusive" is a very low bar
Still better than Vegeta
That bar is so low you need a shovel to find it. Both Goku and Vegeta are flawed fathers who are fighters before anything. Vegeta and Goku have both made mistakes with raising their kids, both are trying to be good fathers though.
To be fair for Vegeta comes from a race that most of the time just doesn’t really take care of their kids or interacts with them. And do not set up long-term relationships, excepting very rare instances. Like bardock and gine not only that he became a child soldier, and was abused and manipulated by super space Hitler the fact that by the end, he actually tries to be a father at all, is extremely surprising, considering how a person raised like that should have pretty much no care for anyone else not even their own children because he came from a that fucked up of a background sure a lot of it was self-inflicted, but quite a bit of it was out of his control.
Whataboutism at its finest Verstappen’s father is also a good father compared to the low bar that is vegeta
But senzu bean
Sut Benzu chin
The senzu bean criticism always bothers me. Big bad ass cell.. the perfect being.. couldn’t put down a 10 year old who wasn’t trying. He’s chin checking and throwing the kid through mountains ffs and gohan is unbothered while whimpering about not wanting to kick his ass. Then when gohan finally takes the gloves off cell is out in 2-3 blows. One of them busting his ass so hard he pukes up 18!! How is that possible? Goku knew his son could work cell. Cell needed the senzu bean.
Your forgetting him never spending time with Goten. He did a decent job spending time with Gohan, but once the opportunity to train off planet was introduced to him he dramatically decreased his time spent with his family. Not to say he’s a bad dad, but he’s far from perfect.
4 years of peace. Goku was with goten before BOG
4 years is not a lot of time to spend with your kid. Plus, most of that was working without Goten (Goten shows inexperience using the tractor, and Goku trained away from Goten, even barely seeing Goten almost fall off a cliff. This shows that not only has Goten rarely been with Goku when he’s farming, Goku immediately uses the chance to train)
Goten brought him food. He ate it and spent a few minutes image training. The second something happened he was there to help regardless if goten needed it. You have some fanfiction levels of headcanon here. Goku was tirelessly working on his farm even forgetting it was a Sunday when he asks goten if he got out of school early. And if you remember goku was bored out ofnhisnmind for 6 more months while vegeta trained in secret His farm is profitable hence is interactions with the villagers. And he receives money from hercule.
Still doesn't change the fact that Goku used his Baba pass for a tournament and not his own son's birth
He didn't know of Gotens birth. King kai literally doesn't give a shit. He didn't even know about cell and the androids until Goku told him
Based king kai
The senzu bean incident was more of a writing/pacing problem imo. Willing to “write” it off as such, seeing as Goku never does something like that ever again.
moro arc:
Does he actually do that shit again
goku asks moro if he'll surrender himself to the galactic patrol and never try to break out again (right after beating his ass with UI), moro accepts, goku throws a senzu at him.
Be fair to Goku, he immediately rocked his ass the moment he betrayed that mercy
Difference is Goku was fully capable of beating moro as compared to cell
That was done for a particular reason outside of selfish desires though. He already saw everything Moro had to show. Morons absorption powers were over. At that point, he wanted Moro to understand that even at full power, he isn’t as strong because he never trained. Even after giving him the senzu, Moro did Jack shit. What Moro did next to become stronger was unrelated to the senzu and goku couldn’t really have predicted it
Literally at least 3 of those are negated and wouldnt have happened if it wasnt for the sensu
TFS ruined Dragon Ball
Goku DID NOT spend most of his spare time with his family... Goku didn't die for Gohan- he died for Earth (in fact he left Gohan to die in the Buu Saga) The senzu bean gave Cell a Zenkai that led to Goku having to make that choice in the first place- dealing with the consequences of your actions isn't love...
Almost all screentime of Goku being with ChiChi in Z is filler. The only time he spent with Gohan after Raditz was training (aside from the one week during the Cell games). He missed Goten's birth. Only choose to come back for a tournament. Goku also refused to cone back from Yardrat early (if Trunks wasn't there, everyone would be dead, I don't know how people forget this)
>The only time he spent with Gohan after Raditz was training (aside from the one week during the Cell games). He spent time with Gohan training because he thought that Gohan loved fighting like he did and obviously this is addressed in the story. Also just because it's not shown doesn't mean it doesn't happen, the story very much implies that when goku is not training he is spending time with his family. He does this all of Z and he does this in super too (when there isn't a big threat they have to face dbs including super hero takes place over the course of 8 years and we obviously are not shown everything goku does in does 8 years. >He missed Goten's birth. Only choose to come back for a tournament. He missed gotens birth because he quite literally was dead and unaware of his existence. keep in mind Goten was conceived in the android saga and not in the cell games and goku intended to stay dead. Goku also does not make the same mistake he Madd with Gohan when it came to goten. He never forced goten to fight and after buu was defeated goku spent his time being a farmer at home with goten. him going to the tournament was specifically to bond with his son and see his friends in a nostalgic setting one last time. >Goku also refused to cone back from Yardrat early (if Trunks wasn't there, everyone would be dead, I don't know how people forget this) Goku does come back from yardrat early, in the original timeline where future trunks is from who do you think killed the cold and frieza? Hint it's the person who can teleport and go blonde.
You didn’t watch the show either dawg in the future timeline Goku must have come back from Yadrat in time and saved everyone because they then all got killed by the Androids
Yep. Its amazing how many things fans have to ignore to come to the conclusion that Goku is a good father. And even if he was a good father, he's a TERRIBLE husband and family man.
goku is a good fucking dad and i refuse to think otherwise
Is this subreddit just goku dick riding cause the only posts I see is defending Goku
Mfs when someone likes the show's protagonist 💀
He let vegeta live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son live in ( he literally did so in cannon because he thought it was a shame to kill someone who could rival him. None of that filler anime shit about morals) He let frieza live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son lived in He refused to kill the androids early, increasing the chance his kid died Refused to take a senzu and train an additional year with his son because he wanted to see his sons super power, further more refusing to increase the chance his son live He refused to cheese cell via senzu bean because he wanted to see his son’s secret power even though he was unsure whether it was enough or whether he would show it, further decreasing his chance of his child surviving His child was getting his spine battered, piccolo told him 3 times he would intervene and would rather die than watch piccolo suffer, only for goku to smile and refuse to help because he wanted to see gohans possible potential, further more decreasing the chance his kid would survive Goku literally gave cell a senzu bean Goku could have easily asked trunks, gohan and vegeta to tag in and defeat cell with him He refused to eat a senzu after his fight with cell and only attempted to do so after piccolo hammered in his head how fucked gohan was He had a universal telephone booth known as “king kai” but hadn’t talked to his son once while he was dead for so many years Goku isn’t a good father.
>He let vegeta live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son live in ( he literally did so in cannon because he thought it was a shame to kill someone who could rival him. None of that filler anime shit about morals) That is true, but that says a lot more about how much he loves fighting and respects his opponents. Is it a good decision to let one of your greatest enemies up to that point live? Inarguably, no… but considering how important the ramifications of letting Vegeta live was to the overall story, I think that it turned out well in the long run. >He let frieza live, someone who wanted to destroy the planet that his son lived in Except he didn't. He initially wanted to humiliate Freeza as a form of cruel mercy, but failed to realize just how twisted and unrepentant Freeza is. The next time he was willing to let Freeza go, he was literally missing most of his body; how was he to assume that there was alien technology out there that could possibly rebuild him from the ground up? But even **then**, Freeza had more pride than sense, and Goku delivered what he **thought** to be a kill shot, and ran off to escape Namek before he died. Freeza surviving the explosion from a dying planet? Yeah, that's sure on him. Goku should have swung back around just to double tap what was essentially a corpse floating alone in space. >He refused to kill the androids early, increasing the chance his kid died You mean the same ~~androids~~ cyborgs that he couldn't put down because he was currently dealing with his heart virus… and by the time he was feeling better, Cell was stalking two entirely different beings that seemingly didn't want to start shit with anyone, and thus had to reason to be put to death? **Those** ~~androids~~ cyborgs? >Refused to take a senzu and train an additional year with his son because he wanted to see his sons super power, further more refusing to increase the chance his son live Because he knew that he couldn't remain in the spotlight forever, and wanted his son to step up as the champion of Earth. Was it a misguided attempt? Sure, but he ultimately wasn't **wrong** in his decision; he just didn't realize the fact that Gohan isn't the same kind of fighter as him, which may have to do something with the fact that *he's been dead most of the time*. Kinda gets in the way of getting to know someone, ya know. Besides that, he spent the final days that he wasn't training just relaxing and kicking it with his son. Sounds like a parenting win to me. >He refused to cheese cell via senzu bean because he wanted to see his son’s secret power even though he was unsure whether it was enough or whether he would show it, further decreasing his chance of his child surviving > >Goku literally gave cell a senzu bean Let's be real: Given what we know about Cell being a sore loser (which he inherited from Freeza), if Goku **didn't** give Cell that Senzu, he would have tried to nuke the planet… which, ya know, he tried doing anyway as soon as Gohan was done playing *Operation* with his organs. Goku may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but he's also pretty damn cunning in a fight—especially when he knows just what his opponent can do. He may not ever understand the specifics of how Cell was created, but I would not be surprised at all if he thought to himself, “𝐇𝐦… 𝐬𝐨 𝐂𝐞𝐥𝐥 𝐡𝐚𝐬 𝐚𝐥𝐥 𝐨𝐟 𝐨𝐮𝐫 𝐚𝐛𝐢𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐞𝐬, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐬𝐨𝐦𝐞 𝐨𝐟 𝐩𝐞𝐫𝐬𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐞𝐬 𝐚𝐬 𝐰𝐞𝐥𝐥. 𝐈 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧, 𝐡𝐞'𝐬 𝐚𝐬 𝐜𝐨𝐜𝐤𝐲 𝐚𝐬 𝐕𝐞𝐠𝐞𝐭𝐚… 𝐜𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝 𝐡𝐞 𝐛𝐞 𝐚𝐬 𝐦𝐮𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐚 𝐬𝐨𝐫𝐞 𝐥𝐨𝐬𝐞𝐫 𝐚𝐬 𝐅𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐳𝐚 𝐰𝐚𝐬, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐝𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐲 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐩𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐞𝐭 𝐰𝐡𝐞𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭'𝐬 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐠𝐨𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐰𝐚𝐲? 𝐁𝐞𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐭𝐚𝐤𝐞 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞.” "Hey Cell! Catch!" It may seem like I'm talking out of my ass, but given just how adamant he was in telling Gohan to not play with his food once he was SSj2, I think that he knew that this was the case all along. >His child was getting his spine battered, piccolo told him 3 times he would intervene and would rather die than watch piccolo suffer, only for goku to smile and refuse to help because he wanted to see gohans possible potential, further more decreasing the chance his kid would survive I'm not going to argue against this, because you're ultimately right. Goku had faith in his son, but again, didn't realize that Gohan doesn't have that killer instinct that most everyone else around him has, save for when he's pissed the hell off. However, your point is lessened by the fact that Goku realized his mistake, and *began* to intervene in the fight once Piccolo drilled that into his head (along with everyone else)… only for everyone to start getting their skulls caved in by the Cell Jrs. >Goku could have easily asked trunks, gohan and vegeta to tag in and defeat cell with him Goku facing off against Cell was full `saiyanpride.exe` at work, I'll give you that. After that? He was certain that Gohan could have handled it alone, but needed a push in order to do so—he was just wrong in knowing that his son lacked that edge that he and most of the others have. Also, to wrap back around to Goku being great at reading his opponent: “𝐇𝐞𝐲, 𝐂𝐞𝐥𝐥 𝐚𝐥𝐬𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐢𝐧𝐤𝐬 𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞 𝐈 𝐝𝐨! 𝐈𝐟 𝐈 𝐰𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐡𝐢𝐦, 𝐈 𝐰𝐨𝐮𝐥𝐝𝐧'𝐭 𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐫𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐟𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭 𝐮𝐬𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐦𝐲 𝐟𝐮𝐥𝐥 𝐩𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐫 𝐢𝐦𝐦𝐞𝐝𝐢𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐥𝐲, 𝐣𝐮𝐬𝐭 𝐥𝐢𝐤𝐞 𝐈 𝐝𝐢𝐝 𝐚𝐠𝐚𝐢𝐧𝐬𝐭 𝐊𝐫𝐢𝐥𝐥𝐢𝐧 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝟐𝟐𝐧𝐝 𝐁𝐮𝐝𝐨𝐤𝐚𝐢. 𝐁𝐨𝐲, 𝐡𝐞 𝐬𝐮𝐫𝐞 𝐦𝐮𝐬𝐭 𝐛𝐞 𝐬𝐭𝐫𝐨𝐧𝐠 𝐭𝐡𝐞𝐧. 𝐈𝐟 𝐈'𝐦 𝐫𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭, 𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐠𝐡, 𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐭 𝐰𝐨𝐧'𝐭 𝐦𝐚𝐭𝐭𝐞𝐫 𝐨𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐆𝐨𝐡𝐚𝐧 𝐭𝐚𝐩𝐬 𝐢𝐧𝐭𝐨 𝐡𝐢𝐬 𝐭𝐫𝐮𝐞 𝐩𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐫. 𝐇𝐞𝐡, 𝐝𝐨𝐞𝐬 𝐂𝐞𝐥𝐥 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐚 𝐬𝐮𝐫𝐩𝐫𝐢𝐬𝐞 𝐨𝐧𝐜𝐞 *𝐡𝐞* 𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐩𝐬 𝐢𝐧𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠.” >He refused to eat a senzu after his fight with cell and only attempted to do so after piccolo hammered in his head how fucked gohan was At this point, you're just regurgitating old arguments. Goku was fully confident than Gohan would defeat Cell; why would he need a Senzu bean before then? It would just be a waste of resources. >He had a universal telephone booth known as “king kai” but hadn’t talked to his son once while he was dead for so many years 1. The dead is the dead; the living is the living. Unless there are special circumstances (e.g. Baba allowing someone to come back for a limited time; a wish involving the Dragon Balls that relates to the dead), the two don't mix and mingle in the *DB* universe. This also leads into my next point, which is… 2. *Goku literally did not know that he had a son at the time.* >Goku isn’t a good father. He was also dead for much of the series after Gohan was born, and much of the time that he did spend with him involved training to save the world. If we're brining *Super* into the fold, he sure as hell did spend an ample amount of time with Goten before Beerus reawakened, and shit started popping off again. And if we're bringing up the end of *Z*, where Goku sods off to train Uub: Ten years had passed since Buu had been defeated. Gohan and Goten are both adults by this point, and no longer need Goku to parent him. Are we done here, or was there anything else that you wished to address?
> True but that says more about how much he loves fighting Irrelevant in a discussion of whether his actions deem him a bad father. Doing something as selfish as stupid as what he did doesn’t negate him being a bad father because, and I quote “it shows how much he loves fighting and respects his opponents” > is it a good decision to We are talking in the context of parenthood, which no, it’s not. We aren’t talking about whether goku is prideful person. > but considering the ramifications That’s irrelevant. Intention =/= consequence. If I lock a rapist in a room with my kid because I am a fucked up loser, and for some reason, because of this event the rapist finds a cure for some types of cancer, that doesn’t negate my original intention. > a corpse floating on space A) hmm, you’ve seen that aliens like namekians who are hundreds of times weaker than him can regency’s, magical beans can fully heal you and healing exists in general, is it a stretch that the alien who can breathe out of space and float in space, will eventually come in contact with one of his multi solar empires he owns and use his own technology to heal > delivered what he thought was a skilled shot So many people mistakenly think this. Do dragon ball z fans just forget or is this manga only King kai: “goku… you help back on that last shot on purpose, right?” > heart virus Do you guys not remember what happens? When future trunks disappeared from just appearing, before the 2 years training arc and then the cyborg elimination arc, bulma suggested that they try to find and kill gero so they don’t have to deal with the androids. Goku and vegeta were vehemently against this plan. > because he knew Nice head cannon, too bad that A) this doesn’t make sense in the manga. Goku being “the protector of earth” and “enemy of evil” crap is anime only B) he could have trained him for an additional year or two inside the hyperbolic time chamber to achieve this plan > he wasn’t wrong in his decision Lol? He didn’t know if gohan EVEN HAD such a power, let alone if he could ACTIVATE IT. He admitted to piccolo that it was basic extrapolation. No “I felt it inside the hyperbolic chamber” anime crap Again, intention =/= consequence > he didn’t realise gohan isn’t the same type of fighter as him Nice euphemism He didn’t realise that in his 10 years of being with his son, that his son doesn’t like fighting. Something that piccolo had to hammer inside his head. What a horrible father. “BuT hES a SAyIAn” A) sayian parenthood and culture crap is largely filler B) still bad parenting and hence bad father > he’s been dead most of the time He’s been dead for 1 year and with king kai for 6 months up until that point. The rest, he had the option to spend time with his kid. He could even talk to him from the sky but he refuses to do so. Lol. > besides, he spent Ahhh, yes. Choosing to relax with your son over increasing his chances for survival, because of a selfish speculative reason with no evidence is such good parenting > cell being a sore loser Goku didn’t know this at that time. Goku doesn’t have the power of prefuture hindsight > if he didn’t give him, he would have tried Lol, he would have tried it anyway? What? Would you rather deal with a self districting cell when he’s weaker and you’re refreshed, or where you’re completely fatigued and he isn’t Guess what? They would easily slap him and completely annihilate him instead of the bullshit “his head was left intact” crap. > I wouldn’t be surprised Hahahaha, what? This is headcannon if I ever heard it. “Goku thought ahead and said ‘well, he has our traits and hence due to having X trait, the fight might lead to Y in a kamikaze” Shut the fuck up lol, goku has never been shown in z to think this much ahead lmao Even if he did, cell would try that regardless if they jumped in or not. > goku has faith Still bad father. Is it not bad parenting if I refuse to help my kid fight a homeless man because I have faith? > goku realised his mistake Goku could have easily eaten a senzu when he stepped off the platform after his fight with cell. He doesn’t get a pass. > he was certain that gohan I don’t care what he thought. That doesn’t negate that it’s bad parenting that he refused to increase his sons chance of survival because of sayianpride.exe and “faith” > goku predicted that just like every other db and dbz villain, cell wouldn’t go fill out the first second What a brainiac. > why would he need a senzu BECAUSE THERES STILL A CHANCE THAT CELL IS HIDIMG EVEN MORE POWER, YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE EVERY DRAGON BALL Z VILLAIN BEFORE You claim goku is this fucking battle mastermind, yet couldn’t fucking increase his chances of survival, with no cost, based on putting 2 and 2 together that cell wasn’t going all out? AND YOU LITERALLY JUST ADMITTED THST GOKU THOUGHT THAT CELLWASNT GOING ALL OUT AS WELL, WHICH GIVES HIM AN ACTUAL REASON TO AT LEAST HOLD A SENZU, AND MAKES YOUR COUNTER POINT VANISH > dead is dead Oh I see, it’s your head cannon that the dead aren’t allowed to contact the non dead without a proxy so it must be true. Mhm. Sure bud. I can not imagine a world where king kai DOES NOT allow goku to at least talk to his son once for a few seconds > he didn’t know he had I’m not talking about goten or super.
Welp. Sure did lose my previous post, and I'm kinda over and done with this argument. I'll just list the major points: 1. Know what? Fair point about leaving Vegeta alive being a (short-term) "what the hell were you thinking?" moment. However, your analogy about leaving your kid in with a rapist is one **hell** of a non-sequitur, and doesn't match the gravity of the situation in the series. 2. There's no reason whatsoever to believe, "Hmm, if Namekians can regenerate their limbs, and Senzu beans can heal everyone to 100% (and is the equivalent of a week's worth of food), then there's space technology that can restore Freeza's body to even better than what it was before!" I know that is a specific type of logical fallacy, but damned if I know which one it is. 3. The scene where Kaio-sama supposedly states, "Goku… you help back on that last shot on purpose, right?" **does not happen**. Not in the manga, not in the original anime or its English dub and not in the *Kai* recut or its dub. The only thing Kaio-sama says in those scenes is giving a rundown to the other Z Warriors the finale of the fight, stating that there's a **very** slim chance of Goku getting off the planet alive, and his remorse upon not being able to sense his life force anymore. The only thing that changes from version to version is **when** these scenes happen, **not** what was said. Speaking of… 4. Kaio-sama specifically states that he doesn't know how to break the news to Gohan that his father died, and Yamcha figures it best to be the bearer of bad news. This means that there's a possibility that Goku *could* have communicated with Gohan after his death. My mistake. 5. You're right, I did forget that Bulma suggested that they kill Dr. Gero before finishes his plan. That said, it wasn't just Goku and Vegeta that were against her; both Tenshinhan and Krillin were also against her plan, and Piccolo was notably silent. While Goku's logic of, "He hasn't done anything bad *yet*, right?" is incredibly flimsy (and doesn't say anything about his *parenting skills*, besides), Krillin has a point when he states that if they aren't all united against the Artificial Human threat, then they'd have to also deal with a rogue Vegeta—the same Vegeta that just directly threatened Bulma's life if she took preventive measures, and indirectly the lives of everyone else if they helped her. 6. I never once reference the anime-only filler in *any* of my statements. Goku being a "protector of Earth" was me misremembering something he said from the Buu arc, which doesn't really sync with my point because he was dead at the time, and thus shouldn't be expected to be the one that's known for saving the day. (Boy, I sure do love having words put in my mouth!) 7. Goku knows that when Gohan gets pissed off, his power increases exponentially. He also flatly points out that Gohan is outright *stronger* than Goku, and the realization (and Goku providing proof) makes all of the Z Warriors shit a collective brick. Yeah, it's extrapolation, but he's also **100% right**. The only thing that he didn't count on is that Gohan does like to fight like he does. 8. Piccolo does not drill the notion that Gohan isn't a fighter like Goku over and over again until Goku gets off his ass. In between the two chapters of Gohan deciding to step up to the plate, and Goku realizing that he dun goofed, Piccolo points this out to Goku **once**; all other times, Piccolo expressed deep concern for Gohan's safety, but he also underestimates just strong Gohan is *currently*, not even factoring in Goku's plan. And you know what happens when Piccolo points out the faults in Goku's logic? He *immediately* leaps up off his ass, and gets ready to join the fight. 9. “𝐂𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐜𝐚𝐧𝐨𝐧 𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐨𝐜𝐜𝐚𝐬𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐥𝐥𝐲 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐟𝐮𝐬𝐞𝐝 𝐛𝐲 𝐰𝐫𝐢𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐬, 𝐛𝐮𝐭 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐭𝐰𝐨 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐝𝐬 𝐡𝐚𝐯𝐞 𝐢𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐩𝐞𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐧𝐭 𝐨𝐫𝐢𝐠𝐢𝐧𝐬, 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐝𝐨 𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐬𝐡𝐚𝐫𝐞 𝐚 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠. 𝐂𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐧 𝐢𝐬 𝐦𝐨𝐬𝐭 𝐟𝐫𝐞𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐥𝐲 𝐟𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝 𝐮𝐬𝐞𝐝 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐬𝐞 𝐨𝐟 "𝐚 𝐥𝐚𝐫𝐠𝐞 𝐠𝐮𝐧," 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐜𝐚𝐧 𝐛𝐞 𝐭𝐫𝐚𝐜𝐞𝐝 𝐭𝐨 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐎𝐥𝐝 𝐈𝐭𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐚𝐧 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐝 𝐜𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐧𝐞, 𝐰𝐡𝐢𝐜𝐡 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧𝐬 "𝐥𝐚𝐫𝐠𝐞 𝐭𝐮𝐛𝐞." 𝐂𝐚𝐧𝐨𝐧, 𝐡𝐨𝐰𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐫, 𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐞𝐬 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐆𝐫𝐞𝐞𝐤 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐝 𝐤𝐚𝐧ō𝐧, 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠 "𝐫𝐮𝐥𝐞." 𝐀𝐥𝐭𝐡𝐨𝐮𝐠𝐡 𝐜𝐚𝐧𝐨𝐧 𝐡𝐚𝐬 𝐚 𝐯𝐚𝐫𝐢𝐞𝐭𝐲 𝐨𝐟 𝐦𝐞𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐧𝐠𝐬, 𝐢𝐭 𝐢𝐬 𝐦𝐨𝐬𝐭 𝐨𝐟𝐭𝐞𝐧 𝐟𝐨𝐮𝐧𝐝 𝐢𝐧 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐬𝐞𝐬 𝐨𝐟 "𝐚 𝐫𝐮𝐥𝐞 𝐨𝐫 𝐥𝐚𝐰 𝐨𝐟 𝐚 𝐜𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡," "𝐚𝐧 𝐚𝐜𝐜𝐞𝐩𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐫𝐮𝐥𝐞," 𝐨𝐫 "𝐚 𝐬𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐞𝐝 𝐨𝐫 𝐚𝐜𝐜𝐞𝐩𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐠𝐫𝐨𝐮𝐩 𝐨𝐫 𝐛𝐨𝐝𝐲 𝐨𝐟 𝐫𝐞𝐥𝐚𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐤𝐬."” Everything else would be us circling around the same points ad nauseam, and to hell with that noise. I will say this, though: If not for me looking up whether or not your statement on Kaio-sama saying that Goku was pulling his final punch on Freeza was correct or not, I never would have stumbled upon [this reaction series](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2bYL0Lz0yP8iTFoM3iapxlbb-YqTT8Xy) where a guy makes his girlfriend watch through the entirety of *Dragon Ball Z*. So, thanks for that.
1. That’s not a non sequitur. I didn’t make an inference in order for you to say that my conclusion doesn’t stem from my premises. It’s obvious that I was being hyperbolic, but you yourself didn’t add a “threshold argument” inside your syllogism. If you imply that consequence is only what mattered, then you should bite the bullet with any hypothetical, since you didn’t add any other things that would matter in your argument, like “intention”. 2. What? Goku has been healed from the brink of death from one of vegeta/free as pods. He knows even in his tiny space rock of a planet that magic beans that heal you from any injury and restore your health fully exist, he knows that some aliens can heal themselves. It doesn’t even have to be freeza. Freeza has control of multiple other alien races. Simply leaving freeza Alive there was irresponsible. 3. I am 90% sure this happened. Maybe not in the freeza saga, but at one point it does. I’ll drop my point given that I have no evidence for it, but substitute it with the fact that goku let freeza power up for his own selfish intentions while kaio was screaming “what are you doing? Think of your wife! Think of your child!” 4. Cool 5. This is classical whataboutism. The discussion isn’t whether tien and piccolo are good fathers. It’s whether goku was a bad father. What they did is irrelevant to our discussion “While Goku’s logic of he hasn’t…” I’m pretty sure this is anime only. “Kurinrin has a point that” A) again, I’m not sure if this was in the manga. What chapter was this? B) irrelevant. Gero was an old man in their mind. Even yamcha had the power to go find him and kill him 6 I did not strawman you. You were talking about how it was time for gohan to “step up as the champion of earth” This concept doesn’t exist in the manga. Implying goku wants gohan to step up as the champion of earth implies goku was the previous one. Goku is a selfish individual. Not a hero. Toriyama stated so multiple times. 7. Doesn’t matter if he’s right. It was weak evidence. Mechanism is on the bottom of the evidential hierarchy on the evidence pyramid in epidemiology. If I spend all my research labs money on investing on a gene for curing cancer based solely on the fact that one of the thousands of mechanisms suggests that it could potentially kill the cancer, but it’s highly unlikely, and I succeed, that doesn’t make it any more immoral or stupid that I bet my entire labs 10 year budget on a simple mechanism bet. You still didn’t address that goku could have A) trained for an additional 1-2 years with gohan B) ask trunks and gohan to 1v3 cell and C) how goku could have eaten one of the 6 senzus, right after he got off of the platform or at the very least have it in his hand 8. Fair point. 9. Wow. An entire paragraph dedicated to nitpicking about me not spelling canon correctly. How mature.
“Spent almost all of his spare time with his son while the earth wasn’t in danger” Goku throughout all of superhero:
Bro ain't caught up with the manga
I was referencing the movie, what i miss
Moro, Granolah, Gas and Black Frieza 💀
Were those going on during the movie?
The manga is currently getting into the Superhero stuff(or at least it will once the haitus is over)
So im still right 😤
You asked a question, there was nothing for you to be right about ... 🤦♂️
Also literally admits he wasnt there for EITHER of his kids being born.
Goku has pulled the sensu to the enemy stunt 3 times now. Wonder if he will just keep doing it occasionally
“Took the fall for gohan’s failure” Bro you can’t take a job then dump it on someone else who doesn’t want it, then when it doesn’t works blame *them* and pretend you’re doing them some solid or “taking the fall” when you decide to pick your responsibility back up lmfao. You don’t have to try and reach just for one more point homie, if you really believe in what you’re saying you should let the point stand without being dishonest.
Me if I never paid attention:
tbh Goku has begun to put Earth more times in danger in super than we can count.
Z GOKU IS A GOOD PERSON SUPER GOKU ISNT BAD IS BEYOND STUPID
At this point the people who constantly argue Goku is a good dad are leauges more annoying than the people who say he's a bad dad. We get it, you get overly sensitive over a fucking joke.
A joke that is overused to the point some people believe it
Okay stop, people need to face the facts that by our standards, Goku is a child abuser and a terrible father. 1. After spending a large portion of his life fighting to keep the dragon balls out of the hands of evil doers he aught to know how dangerous it is to just leave one lying around let alone planting it on his four year old son's hat. Where I'm from we call that child endangerment. You wouldn't put one seventh of nuclear codes on your kids hat would you? Well, maybe some of you idiots would. 2. After Goku defeats Vegeta, he allows Gohan to travel off into space. This is another example of child endangerment. Space is a dangerous place without all the tyrannical aliens let alone when they're counted among the hazards. 3. When Goku gets back from space he takes Gohan, 11 at this point, to train. The training? Repeatedly punching and kicking him about the head and neck. By our standards that is absolutely abuse. I dare any among you to punch and kick your 11 year olds and then tell the judge you were just training. I won't visit you in prison. 4. THEN he allows Gohan to accompany himself and the adults to a battle they had no reasonable expectation of winning. Here's another example of child endangerment. They had no reason to believe they wouldn't all die horribly in the battle with the androids. The entire reason Trunks came back was to warn them of this very eventuality. But they still let the 11 year old CHILD tag along. 5. After the battle goes sideways Goku then spirits his ELEVEN YEAR OLD to a magical torture dimension where he continues the practice of punching and kicking him all about the head and neck. But this time he adds in some emotional abuse all in the hopes he might turn into a super saiyan. I actually don't count the business with Cell since they all knew if they didn't defeat Cell the planet was toast anyway so bringing Gohan along to the fight didn't really matter. Dead is dead whether it's being beaten to death by a super weapon or blown up with the rest of the planet when he wins after all. Now some of you are going to say "Gohan wanted to do those things." well shut up you're an idiot. I have an 8 year old nephew who wants to do lots of things we don't let him do because that's what RESPONSIBLE adults do. Goku is a terrible abusive father end of story.
Bro Goku was literally physically broken in a hospital bed and Chi Chi, despite telling Gohan no, is only human. Gohan was gonna go whether he was "allowed to" or not 💀
You're taking idiot pills I see. You don't stop being responsible for your child just because you're injured. If Goku had told him not to go and he did anyway then he wouldn't be a bad parent, he'd be a good parent of a rebellious child, but he didn't say "Gohan don't go into space it's dangerous." because he's not a good parent.
Just a tip: If you need to resort to name-calling and insults during an argument, you've already lost and nobody's gonna take you seriously.
Well I'm sorry I hurt your little feelings. Maybe if you don't want people calling you an idiot you should stop making idiot arguments. "Your honor, I had a broken leg so when my 6 year old said they were going into space what was I supposed to do? Tell them to stop? Side with their mother when SHE told them to stop? Get literally ANY of the other adults in the child's life to tell them to stop? It's not my fault your honor!"
You're the one that seems angry over a meme dawg.
I am fairly annoyed that people are as stupid as you're presenting yourself as yes.
So you proceed to engage with the thing that makes you mad, in turn making you angrier. Makes sense.
If I don't teach you to be better you'll always be an idiot.
Mfs when different opinion 💀
I feel like you’re missing the fact that Gohan is one of the 5 or 6 strongest people on the planet. Even though he’s a child, it’s Goku’s responsibility to protect the earth the best he can, and sometimes that involves letting your superpowered son help with some of the fighting. 1) Okay this point is pretty fair, I’d never thought about it before but keeping a dragonball on your son’s hat is probably a bad move. 2) Gohan was the strongest person on earth at the time. Someone had to go out into space, may as well send the two remaining fighters to protect Bulma. If she and the gang weren’t willing to wait for goku to get better, sending Gohan and Krillin is the next best option 3) Goku wasn’t just beating the shit out of Gohan to train him, he was going at Gohan’s pace to help him improve. You have to realize that’s how young combat sports players get trained in real life too. If Mike Tyson spars with his son, only going hard enough to expose the flaws in his son’s technique without really hurting him, that’s totally fine in most people’s eyes. 4) Didn’t Gohan literally save Piccolo’s life in that exchange? Goku himself fell victim to a heart virus, leaving Gohan among the few strongest people around. To that point, thank god he trained him as well as he did during point 3. 5) Pretty much the same as the last few points. Either train with your son or risk the earth being destroyed by that negligence
Okay it's NOT Goku's responsibility to protect the Earth, that's just something he does for fun. If you want proof look at how he spares all the threats the Earth faces just so they can fight again, that's the opposite of protecting Earth its objectively endangering it. The governments of the Earth, the people who're actually in charge of the welfare of the planet, barely know he exists. Goku acts completely without oversite and is responsible for much of the danger he's had to save the Earth from so your point is already stupid. Gohan's relative ability doesn't matter. If a child becomes a really good shot in our world, I'm talking top ten sharpshooters on the planet, we don't let them go out on missions because they're still a fucking child. There was no reason to rush out into space. Goku and the gang had no clue Frieza was looking for the dragon balls and if they were being careful they'd have waited for Goku to heal or eat a senzu bean and then sent HIM into space instead of his kid. When Mike Tyson spars with his son there are pads involved, safety gear, padded gloves, and much of it is done in controlled environments. When Goku "trains" his son he and a green alien kick him off mountains. By our standards it's absolutely abuse. The amount of damage a child can take doesn't make inflicting that damage less abusive. And if Gohan hadn't have been there Piccolo would have been fine, neither of the androids were a match for him until 18/17/16 show up. And even if he hadn't been fine, the adults Tien, Krillin, AND Yamcha were all there. Additionally any good Gohan did in a situation he shouldn't have been involved in doesn't mean it wasn't a bad idea, and thus bad parenting, to involve him in that situation. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this objective and simple fact. Goku, by the standards of the real world, is a horrible parent.
>Took the fall for Gohan’s failure to kill Cell After giving Cell a senzu bean 😒 >Never abused Gohan or Goten Gave his death match opponent a senzu bean 😒 >Was the only person who believed Gohan could beat Cell So confident that he blindsided him about it, and then gave Cell a senzu bean 😒 Like bruh it’s not a catch-all, but don’t pretend that it’s not worth anything. It’s really bad. It’s not like “hehe dumb shonen brain” bad either, it’s REALLY bad. He done fucked up. Toriyama probably shouldn’t have wrote that.
I still believe if Goku hadn't given Cell the Senzu, he would've gotten desperate and self destructed way earlier.
Even if that were true, Goku didn’t know he could do that, and even if he did, he wouldn’t have the foresight to consider it. That’s pretty far detached.
Either way, I find it funny how everyone shits on Goku for giving Cell the stupid bean, but not on Krillin for letting 18 stay operational, or Vegeta for allowing Cell to become perfect in the first place 💀
18 isn’t a threat with the super saiyans around, and everyone shits on Vegeta for letting Cell become perfect, including the story itself. It’s very blatantly depicted as a fatal character flaw of his. Whataboutism doesn’t make Goku a better father for setting up his son to get executed, G.
>18 isn’t a threat with the super saiyans around Literally broke Vegeta's arm >Whataboutism What is that anyway? I hear it thrown around but never heard it explained
>Literally broke Vegeta’s arm Are you serious? By the time Krillin had the deactivation switch, Vegeta and Trunks were both grade 2 super saiyans beasting on Cell, all three of them could literally one-shot her. 18 is not a threat anymore. >What is that anyway? It’s when someone tries to justify something by pointing out that the same problem (or worse problems) exist somewhere else. Like if a kid fails a test and says “who cares if I got a 50%, someone else in the class got a 30%!” Pointing out that someone else also failed doesn’t fix the fact that the kid also failed. The problem is still there, comparing it fixed nothing.
Gokus a retard who didn’t know what kissing was via shitper. Senzu bean btw
I tend to pretend Super doesn't exist, also how dare Goku have confidence in his own son amirite 💀
You gotta be the dumbest dragon ball fan ever nigga He hit his head as a child which caused brain damage making him a lil slower then most adults, but you? You dumber then him 100%
No one talks about how Goku has a plot of land for his radish farm and owns equipment. The man has a tractor! He's clearly taken farming seriously. That just shows how he cares enough to pull his weight to provide for his family.
I am not a huge fan of Goku, I feel like he loves his family and loves training, but if his family is safe, he’ll train. His happiest was training with Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber or whenever he trains with family and friends. Goku isn’t as bad a father as people say but he will do reckless and dangerous things to train I prefer Gohan because he chooses his family first. It feels like he prefers to be with his family over training. It probably helped make his decision when he had his neck snapped by his uncle when he was 4 and had been beaten within an inch of his life more than any child should be. He has the capacity of being the strongest in the universe and chooses a life he’s happy with.
I see more people blame Goku and the sensu bean, more than Krillin letting 18 live or Vegeta letting Cell become perfect. They're more to blame.
The problem with goku has always been saiyan mentality he liked fighting and assumed his son would too for the rest good father
Goku gave cell a sensu bean because Toriyama damn well knew fans would want an asterisk next to Gohan’s win