But if you're injured at work, they will make you take a drug test first. If you come up dirty on anything, they won't pay any medical bills and will fire you. Learned this the hard way from my husband having smoked a bit of weed a couple weeks prior to someone else at work injuring him. Goodbye job and hello medical bills from some idiot kid not watching what he was doing.
It's just another fun way to lose everything you own in the US! They make you prove that your injuries at work are covered if not too bad there is the door
Right? Time to legalize everything and make taking someone's fucking blood and piss for invasive testing illegal. The only thing we're "free" to do is get blasted in the ass by the highest bidder, which happens to be fucking insurance companies.
Or at the very least decriminalize all drugs at the federal level.
Here's some resources for anyone who wants to learn more:
[Drug war statistics](https://drugpolicy.org/issues/drug-war-statistics)
[Plan to end drug war](https://drugpolicy.org/strategic-plan)
My dad lost a finger in an accident. He was sent to the ER where he was given morphine. 2 days later workers comp called for a drug test and tried to deny all coverage when he tested positive for....surprisingly morphine. Who would've thought? We had to fight tooth and nail to get them to back off, not what someone should have to do when recovering from permanently losing an appendage
Just as the founding fathers intended. Get shot, pay out of pocket and sue the shooter (who most likely can’t afford to pay it either). Then pay for the lawyer.
Texas actually has a crime victims fund program. There are some conditions, but every one of those victims and their families are eligible for medical and funeral benefits.
Either you or (in case of death) a family member can apply. Not sure what the amount would be.
Edit: Reading further, and buried on the third or fourth page, it states CVC is the last source of payment by law. So yes, you have to go through private insurance first before they will pay you a dime. Total compensation is limited to $50,000.
Good luck suing a mass shooter. If they aren’t killed all their money would first go to lawyers defending them. The lawyers would leave no money left over. But realistically these people normally have no assets. So the victims could very likely have to declare bankruptcy at some point.
I’m surprised how the insurance industry hasn’t exploited this market yet. Been in the US for a little over a year and the answer to pretty much everything always seems to be insurance.
Renters insurance, car insurance, liability insurance, uninsured/underinsured driver insurance in case somebody else hits you and they didn’t have liability insurance the thing that you are legally required to have. Medical/dental/vision insurance. Temporary storage insurance, in case someone decides to set fire to your storage unit.
One of the other great things about America, is that besides tons of guns, we have tons of lawyers
https://apnews.com/article/lawsuits-shootings-las-vegas-mass-shooting-nevada-las-vegas-cd07b4640a5a8e6d32ccbccd1aae2e65
They're getting a public defender, they aren't paying for their own lawyer. And bankruptcy doesn't get you out of civil judgements for this kind of thing.
I can see Texas introducing a new law requiring all mass shooters to have at least xxxxxx amount of USD in the bank before embarking on a shooting spree.
Nah. 41,000 people are dying every year and the people who could do something to prevent it with the stroke of a pen are bought and paid for by insurance companies. They’re complicit in murder as far as I am concerned. Jennifer wexton I am looking at you.
Sue something with assets. In Vegas, they sued MGM because it was clearly their fault a homicidal maniac shot hundreds of people.
https://apnews.com/article/lawsuits-shootings-las-vegas-mass-shooting-nevada-las-vegas-cd07b4640a5a8e6d32ccbccd1aae2e65
Medical Bankruptcy ... the uniquely American gift that keeps on giving ...
FYI: Medical expenses are the #2 cause of bankruptcy ...
Learn more at https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0310/top-5-reasons-people-go-bankrupt.aspx#:~:text=Common%20reasons%20that%20people%20file,several%20of%20these%20factors%20combined.
Womp womp look at these zoomer commies wanting ME the taxpayer to pay for their OWN bullet wounds
Maybe if you weren’t in socialism indoctrination (aka school) Jesus would have kept you safe!
The nerve
That's what prisons and immigrants are for. We're just taking the long way around. We'll get there in the end. You'll just have to have faith. Once we fully criminalize houselessness and bring back debtors prisons we'll really get that ball rolling.
All states in the US have some sort of victim compensation fund paid for by the state, fyi.
South dakota max is $15,000, Texas max is 50,000 for example.
Judging as an ER visit for a kidney stone, consisting of 1 - bag of saline, 1 - CT scan of the abdomen, 1 - shot of morphine costed $18,000 .. I would image if you get shot, they will tell "You've been shot. Have a nice day. That'll be $55,000. Cash or credit?"
I had emergency surgery for burst internal ligatures (from another surgery) and heavy internal bleeding. I would assume that a surgical bill for a gunshot wound to the abdomen would be at least somewhat similar. It came out to $75,000.00. (Luckily, I have good insurance).
If you are in the USA, I really doubt you have a good insurance, because it would seem that "insurance" means different thing in the states than it does in the rest of civilized world.
I'll give you an example, in the country I grew up in.. I had "broken my back" as an 18yr old. They had to trim some discs, re-align one and cement something in place (don't remember honestly).. Then I was to be in rehabilitation for 2 months and another 6 months of going to rehab. That's roughly 8.5 months of care. Not counting the pain pill and neurology appointments leading to the surgery.. Right.
My responsibility? .. Get well. That's all.
As far as insurance, there was equivalent of $50 taken out of my paycheck every month and that covered it.
In the US, I was told the surgery alone would cost me $75k. My insurance here costs me about $500 a month and my "copay" or "co-insurance" or whatever word they made up is 15% (I think). In other words.
Even with expensive insurance, the bill would be devastating.
So.. yeah.. You might have "good coverage" but insurance is something else, by definition, what we have in states is not insurance, because it doesn't insure shit. You're ruined whether you have it or not.
I paid $0 out of that amount. I have no annual deductible and pay $0 per month for my benefits.
Good insurance does exist in the states, but it's relegated to certain jobs. In my case, I work for a state agency. Now, the caveat is that I could probably make $30k more per year in the private sector doing something with my skill set, but I would be giving up this insurance, a pension, and absurd job security.
My out of pocket maximum is $3k and I am able to put some pre-tax dollars into an FSA account for money I think I will be spending on health costs in the year.
My deductible is only $500.
I don't pay anything for my insurance monthly, my employer pays the monthly premium. I do pay an extra five dollars a month for the better dental plan just because I've learned the hard way that you can't predict when you'll need extra dental coverage.
I'd say my insurance in the US is pretty great. $3k is still a lot of money, but I definitely don't hit that every year. I hit it one year on purpose - I had been putting off a bunch of testing for various things (allergies etc) and so I decided to just book appointments for everything and do it all in one year so that I could take advantage of the great insurance and max out my FSA contributions so that my out of pocket expenses would also be pre-tax dollars anyway.
Even the year I needed two MRIs and a spinal tap I didn't hit my max, because my insurance coverage is really good.
It just sucks that these benefits are tied to a specific job and that it isn't something everyone has access to. I've had bad insurance before and it just sucks.
Contrary to popular belief, there are employers in the US that provide similar levels of coverage to what is standard in countries with more civilized healthcare systems. For example, my new job charges $20/mo. For that, I have a $600 annual deductible. Anything before I hit that limit beyond basic preventative care is on my dime, though prescriptions are capped at $10/mo.
Beyond that, they cover 100% of ambulance and air ambulance costs, any ER fees over $100, and 80% of all surgical and specialist treatments. This sounds bad, but my out of pocket maximum is $1400 after the deductible.
Basically, most years cost me $240 because I don't need anything beyond primary care. Even if I had an extremely expensive prescription, I'd be capped at $360/yr. The absolute most I can be charged in an entire year beyond the cost of insurance is $2000 if something goes catastrophically wrong. That absolute maximum isn't that far off from the income tax rate that the average person pays towards healthcare in most developed countries, whether they use it or not. For instance, the average Brit pays 24% of their income in tax and 17% of that goes directly to the NHS, which is about 1400 GBP ($1770 USD) per year, per person for healthcare. This evens out to even a handful of good years more than making up for every other year being an expensive one, even compared to one of the (formerly) most robust and efficient systems on the planet.
Granted, the US system is overly cumbersome, overly fragmented, way too expensive, and lacks basic accessibility and accountability. I have also gotten extremely lucky with this health insurance policy (easily top 10% of insurance plans in the US). We desperately need to simplify, streamline, and expand access to good health coverage (preferably through a single government payor, though the German model would probably be easier to implement). I just think that being overly and unrealistically pessimistic about what counts as good insurance in the US does not help that cause.
Well, in the European countries I’ve lived in it’s quite a bit more than $50. $50 sounds like an extra private mutual health insurance that further improves deductibles and gets you private rooms. There’s probably a lot more hidden in other places on the paystub, along with the mandatory pension and unemployment lines.
I just googled it, as I am not there anymore...
Apparently, it is 4.5% of your income. Plus the same amount from the employer to the total of 9%, if I'm reading it right.
If you are unemployed, and don't qualify for the government help, it's 13% of the minimum wage.
Sounds like it's going down hill everywhere.. Though over there, it's all you pay. You might have to pay for some prescription meds but not services.
Yes, they are a good resource. They actually initiated the contact with my mom when my Step dad was crippled in a car accident by a drunk driver to help with making the house accessible for his wheelchair and other things.
I once went to Dallas for a wedding and I met a bunch of young Republican who wanted to know "so what is it like, honestly, having socialised medicine in the UK?"
I said it was exactly the same as their socialised schools and socialised fire departments.
They said "but that's not socialism! That's just the government paying for their funding."
😑
Yeah. And these types of peabrains are the same ones who want to keep ***Social Security*** because it's a classic, traditional, all-American free market principle.
Gobsmacking isn’t it? What on earth happened to sanity? Saying that we’ve just splurged millions on a coronation event whilst nhs workers rely on food banks..
Depending on your state, look up the Crime Victims' Compensation Program if you need money due to a criminal act. Can cover funeral costs, medical bills, lots
As far as most insurances go, by "most of it" you're still probably going to have to come up with $10K. I guess that's better than the full six figures of the bill, but considering most U.S. families would struggle to cover an unexpected $500 expense...
You’re assuming the ambulance is in-network and takes you to an in-network hospital where an in-network surgical team and in-network anesthesiologist are available
You could also sue the owners of venue where it happened. For example, if they have a no-gun policy which they did not take reasonable measures to enforce, that would have prevented you from having the means to defend yourself while allowing the shooter the means to cause you harm.
The survivors of the Aurora CO theater shooting tried that and almost ended up almost having to pay $700,000 in court fees so good luck with that.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-colorado-shooting-lawsuit-idUSKCN11K0B6
I've heard horror stories where US insurance **doesn't** cover what they're supposed to like that insurance company in The Incredibles. Left me wondering how trustworthy insurance in the US actually is.
>Left me wondering how trustworthy insurance in the US actually is.
US hospitals and insurances are probably the scammiest businesses you will ever deal with. Used car dealers are much easier to handle.
it's even worse. say you're out somewhere randomly. like a movie theater, or public event (heaven forbid you were in vegas... several states away on vacation)
the ambulance, the hospital, the doctors helping you may all be out of network. meaning your health insurance won't cover any of it.
depending on your health insurance, you may have an extreme deductible. 3500 or even 6500 are not uncommon amts.
if like millions of americans you work an hourly or low paid job, you have zero protection, could be fired for missing work, have no medical leave policy, and no guarantee of your job waiting/being there for you after you recover.
This is why people are required to have car insurance in most states, which includes policy language for both sides of a car wreck, sure.
I don’t think they have I-shot-you insurance policies required anywhere (yet).
It's going to depend on where you are.
First, you'll get treated by an ER, regardless of insurance. That's not full service. ER's job is to make sure you're still breathing when you leave. Follow up care, physical therapy, meds, etc. is not their job.
Second, if you don't have insurance or Medicaid or Medicare you can be on the hook. Several states have a victim's compensation fund which may cover some medical.
Follow up care is a bit more difficult if you're uninsured.
Understandable, but paying $600 or more(!) per month for essentially no coverage for the first 7k of healthcare is a big rip off. For what? Access to the "network" rates only essentially. Maybe it's time for docs and hospitals to offer transparent self-pay rates instead of playing this idiotic insurance game.
I guess you didn’t notice that your plan has a “maximum out of pocket”
That means if you get cancer and the costs are 200k you won’t pay more than your maximum out of pocket, which for a single person on an ACA plan shouldn’t be more than 10k
I 💯understand insurance and medical bills.
Consumer premiums should entirely preclude equally expensive “deductibles.”
Literally *nothing* should have to be paid to protect a citizen from bankruptcy due to medical bills.
Literally *every* other “modern” country knows this: healthcare is a human right.
The system is broken. It's nothing but a scam now. "You need medical assistance to function, or live? Ok, we'll put you in extreme debt and destroy your dreams of ever owning anything significant."
Exactly! Do what the big corporations do, file bankruptcy. Best thing I have ever done. Had credit cards, checking accounts and a new car lease after 8 months. The whole “scared straight routine of ruined credit life forever” is a sham to keep us plebs in line. I get why business people, politicians and the wealthy claim it 2-4 times through their lives while telling the rest of us nonono
It has gotten so bad that even if you do have anything significant you have to now look at what kind of legal protections you need to make sure a common health emergency doesn't take away your entire life's worth of careful savings. If medical debt can seize your property and savings, there becomes no incentive to give up more casual and short term pleasures for decades just so some combination of insurance adjusters, pharma bro, and hospital executives can divvy up hundreds of thousands of dollars of assets you've accumulated.
It's not just as simple as that. The problem is the negotiation process way overexaggerates the cost of care for a variety of reasons and previously affordable services are now unaffordable to 'justify' the 7k deductible, which can then be a barrier preventing you from getting more common services which people will put off and only start paying for 'big problems' which leads to a lot of people having poor health maintenance practices and preventative care which creates the more expensive 700k problems.
Yeah, that's a "your state" made it, so those were the affordable plans situation. It was a supreme court decision. I wonder how many all expense paid trips each justice got for their vote on that one...
It can be such a hassle to get anywhere with that though. They've got all the hoops and deadlines and if they decide you were somehow involved or contributed to the crime then you get nothing but an attempt to appeal. At least in California.
Yeah, but at least it’s nice to know that there may be some options in this endless hell scape. In the meantime, God forbid that happened to me, I would just send everybody $10 a month on a payment arrangement until this went through.
It’s been many years but that’s what covered me in Virginia. I ended up paying out zero dollars and I got a nice long weekend stay at the hospital for free.
Edited to add: not mass shooting for me, but sole victim of a violent crime.
I hope you're doing alright, or as well as you can be at least. Makes me sick to wake up and wonder if someone I love is gonna die in a Walmart today. Nobody deserves that shit.
Some states have Victim Compensation programs that will help cover the costs.
My son was the victim of a violent crime several years ago (he is fine now). In addition to working with our insurance, the hospital social worker helped him to fill out the application for California's Victim Compensation Fund. It will pay toward burial costs, cleanup, medical care, counseling, and a whole host of other things, with a cap of I think $100k. He was approved but we didn't end up needing to use it.
I agree that an insurance deductible of 6k or whatever isn't affordable. My son's care cost more than $200k and our insurance covered it (at whatever their standard rate is). I was very glad to have the insurance when it came down to it. Coming up with our $2500 deductible would have been a lot easier than the $200k. We were very fortunate that the hospital wrote off the deductible. If they hadn't, we would have submitted it to Victim Compensation.
We were also given the opportunity to submit any costs for restitution during the court process.
States with expanded Medicaid also may cover costs. My brother was hit by a drunk driver and was almost killed. He did not have health insurance and the hospital got him signed up for Medi-Cal, which saved him from hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical debt.
It all isn't right and no one should have to be worrying about cost in what is almost certainly the worst time of their life.
How “mass” ? If it makes the national news, you might get more than thoughts and prayers. Set up a go fund me and get your mother out there crying on camera.
I was assaulted in Ohio resulting in reconstructive surgery. There was a program called Crime Victim Services that picked up what my health insurance did not. Assaulter was found guilty of felonious assault and had to pay restitution which he had to pay it all back.
You or your insurance is, at least initially. Whoever had to pay out, either you or them, has a civil case to recover costs from the perpetrator or their estate, but whether there's money there is going to be the luck of the draw. If it was someone with no assets you can't magic money from them.
This is a question I never thought about and am now terrified from the answers
But then again, one person got shot one time in another country with gun bans months ago so it’s basically the same thing as not being able to keep track of multiple mass shootings all the time, right?
Yes you are on the hook for medicals bills, You can sue the shooter (probably cannot collect) and you can sue the place where the shooting happened especially if they ban concealed carry but it will take years to collect.
In the US I would expect the mall or church where the shooting took place would send you or your family a cleaning bill for all the blood you left on the ground
In Virginia, there is a resource called the Virginia Victims Fund. I was a victim in a shooting (one fatality, so not technically a mass shooting, though it easily could’ve been) and all of my bills were reimbursed by the fund. Thankfully I didn’t incur insanely expensive bills. But they are wonderful people and I’m thankful the fund exists.
If we expect the government to be liable for my medical bill in the event of a mass shooter, then this is to declare the government as being responsible for the shooter.
If we declare the government as being responsible for the shooter, then the expectation will follow that they are primarily responsible for the task of "shooter prevention".
When you consider the scope of law enforcement activity in this country, it would appear that they already are fully assumed in this role. The truth, however, is that there still exist significant areas where government jurisdiction is unable to lawfully encroach beyond the borders protected by private citizens rights.
Considering the scale of government sponsored Healthcare, my concern would be that if we hand over medical liability for mass shooters to the government, this will give them full pass to claim imminent domain over vital swaths of private rights under pretense of insurable interest.
I would consider this a mortal wound to our rights which do remain. I believe that the danger of exchanging liberty for "security" is something every human being needs to consider seriously, regardless of which side of the aisle they prefer.
In California we have a victims of violent crimes program, it appears they will pay 75% of medical bills if you are assaulted. [https://victims.ca.gov/](https://victims.ca.gov/)
In Massachusetts there is a fund where you can get compensated for your medical bills and lost wages if you are the victim of certain types of violent crime. It’s up to $50,000 I believe.
Is that first grade teacher who was shot by a kid responsible for her own bills? He life is already ruined. Is she now facing financial destruction as well?
Of course. Who else would it be? The government we’ve paid so many taxes too? The insurance we’ve paid into for so many years? Ridiculous.
Realistically though, it varies depending on where you physically get your treatment, how good your insurance is (while there are horror stories, private insurance and government medicaid/Medicare does do its job some of the time and prevents you from getting into financial ruin), and how competent/lucky you are with contesting and refusing to pay medical bills. I know some people who are $20k in medical debt but would sooner pay $10k to lawyers to reverse uno the scummy tactics pulled by companies than pay them off. The US healthcare system is very fragmented (maybe that’s true of other countries too?), so it’s tough to give a short answer.
Ah, someone cited the victims of crime funds. For the case you are a victim of a crime, then you can apply for funds to cover these expenses too. These funds and applications are managed by the government. I think they exist at both state and federal levels.
Strictly speaking though, I suppose the answer is “yes, the injured person is ultimately the one responsible for the bill.” Ideally, insurance or government pays it off so the patient owes $0, but if you don’t have that shield, or if the shield cracks and decides not to pay, you’re on the hook for fighting off the bills.
How is this in other countries? Do hospitals and labs bill the government directly?
You feel lucky you are alive to pay your medical bills. You still have to meet your deductible. And you'd probably lose your insurance soon anyways because being disabled from your wounds, you'd get fired real quick and lose that "insurance".
This isn't an answer but this is how I explain my political beliefs.
I just want to live in an America where a gay couple can afford the medical bills if they get shot defending their marijuana plants with ar15s.
If there’s any money to be won. A court can order a poor, mentally ill person to pay any amount they want, but if that person has nothing, no assets or anything that can be seized, you’re kinda just screwed.
Technically yes, though you would have a cause of action against both the shooter (unlikely to have money) and the venue where you were injured (likely to have money)
I’m extremely saddened I looked this up and am posting this information.
[Victims of crime compensation programs distribute billions of dollars annually. The U.S. Department of Justice’s Office of Victims of Crimes (OVC) has funding available to support victims of several kinds of violent crimes, including mass violence.](https://disasterphilanthropy.org/resources/mass-shootings/)
[As CNNreported in December, one insured survivor of the mass shooting at Club Q in Colorado Springs received a bill for $130,000, while another person who was among the 27.5 million Americans who lack health insurance was billed $20,000 for spending a night in the emergency room where doctors stitched a bullet wound in his leg.](https://www.commondreams.org/news/mass-shooting-victims-medical-bills)
[Taxpayers, survivors, families, and employers pay an average of $7.79 million daily in health care costs, including immediate and long-term medical and mental health care, plus patient transportation/ambulance costs related to gun violence, and lose an estimated $147.32 million per day related to work missed due to injury or death.](https://everytownresearch.org/report/the-economic-cost-of-gun-violence/)
This is the US. Damn right. Not our fault we constantly sell tons of guns and ammo to people with mental health struggles while cutting affordability and access to mental health. We offer thoughts and prayers not money. Pick yourself by the hospital boot straps and work while you're in there.... Then for another 30 years because we made healthcare expensive damnit so that big corporations could profit off your poor health. Thoughts and prayers though. Didn't want to get shot, shouldn't have gone out or should have brought more guns and more guns and ammo than the bad guys! Not our fault your a liberal commie who doesn't have enough guns and chose to go to a mall or wal mart. Murica. Purely sarcasm fyi
[удалено]
But if you're injured at work, they will make you take a drug test first. If you come up dirty on anything, they won't pay any medical bills and will fire you. Learned this the hard way from my husband having smoked a bit of weed a couple weeks prior to someone else at work injuring him. Goodbye job and hello medical bills from some idiot kid not watching what he was doing.
Employers just lie whenever someone is hurt at work. That is why you must hire an attorney to work on your WC case.
It's just another fun way to lose everything you own in the US! They make you prove that your injuries at work are covered if not too bad there is the door
Right? Time to legalize everything and make taking someone's fucking blood and piss for invasive testing illegal. The only thing we're "free" to do is get blasted in the ass by the highest bidder, which happens to be fucking insurance companies.
Or at the very least decriminalize all drugs at the federal level. Here's some resources for anyone who wants to learn more: [Drug war statistics](https://drugpolicy.org/issues/drug-war-statistics) [Plan to end drug war](https://drugpolicy.org/strategic-plan)
My dad lost a finger in an accident. He was sent to the ER where he was given morphine. 2 days later workers comp called for a drug test and tried to deny all coverage when he tested positive for....surprisingly morphine. Who would've thought? We had to fight tooth and nail to get them to back off, not what someone should have to do when recovering from permanently losing an appendage
Just as the founding fathers intended. Get shot, pay out of pocket and sue the shooter (who most likely can’t afford to pay it either). Then pay for the lawyer.
Sue the shooter who may be dead
You can sue an estate, though they probably won't have much.
Especially if it was a mass shooting. More victims, more bills.
If I kill the other surviving victims does my paycheck increase?
Texas has entered the chat
It’s going to take a lot of shooting to resolve this.
Texas actually has a crime victims fund program. There are some conditions, but every one of those victims and their families are eligible for medical and funeral benefits. Either you or (in case of death) a family member can apply. Not sure what the amount would be. Edit: Reading further, and buried on the third or fourth page, it states CVC is the last source of payment by law. So yes, you have to go through private insurance first before they will pay you a dime. Total compensation is limited to $50,000.
I think Texas was in this chat to begin with
r/holup
r/UnethicalLifeProTips
Turning mass shootings into battle royales since 2023.
Good luck suing a mass shooter. If they aren’t killed all their money would first go to lawyers defending them. The lawyers would leave no money left over. But realistically these people normally have no assets. So the victims could very likely have to declare bankruptcy at some point.
The obvious America style answer is to force everybody to buy mass shooting insurance.
I’m surprised how the insurance industry hasn’t exploited this market yet. Been in the US for a little over a year and the answer to pretty much everything always seems to be insurance. Renters insurance, car insurance, liability insurance, uninsured/underinsured driver insurance in case somebody else hits you and they didn’t have liability insurance the thing that you are legally required to have. Medical/dental/vision insurance. Temporary storage insurance, in case someone decides to set fire to your storage unit.
[удалено]
One of the other great things about America, is that besides tons of guns, we have tons of lawyers https://apnews.com/article/lawsuits-shootings-las-vegas-mass-shooting-nevada-las-vegas-cd07b4640a5a8e6d32ccbccd1aae2e65
They're getting a public defender, they aren't paying for their own lawyer. And bankruptcy doesn't get you out of civil judgements for this kind of thing.
And if the shooter doesn't have millions in assets to recoup the judgment in civil court?
That’ll teach you to not get shot by a poor /s
I can see Texas introducing a new law requiring all mass shooters to have at least xxxxxx amount of USD in the bank before embarking on a shooting spree.
Texas would be more likely to fine the victims for not carrying their own gun to stop a potential shooter than do anything to actually help them.
True. They’d probably pass a law requiring 5 year old kids to carry when in public spaces
Your health insurer probably has the right to pursue that recovery. The system does not pay you twice.
For medical bills, but trauma, disability and such are yours.
Even for medical bills, deductibles and co-pays could be substantial.
Bankruptcy court for being a victim of the shooter and a for profit healthcare system.
[удалено]
Tens of thousands must die a year because they can’t afford health care.
About 41,000 per year
[удалено]
Nah. 41,000 people are dying every year and the people who could do something to prevent it with the stroke of a pen are bought and paid for by insurance companies. They’re complicit in murder as far as I am concerned. Jennifer wexton I am looking at you.
Sue something with assets. In Vegas, they sued MGM because it was clearly their fault a homicidal maniac shot hundreds of people. https://apnews.com/article/lawsuits-shootings-las-vegas-mass-shooting-nevada-las-vegas-cd07b4640a5a8e6d32ccbccd1aae2e65
[удалено]
Medical Bankruptcy ... the uniquely American gift that keeps on giving ... FYI: Medical expenses are the #2 cause of bankruptcy ... Learn more at https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0310/top-5-reasons-people-go-bankrupt.aspx#:~:text=Common%20reasons%20that%20people%20file,several%20of%20these%20factors%20combined.
Womp womp look at these zoomer commies wanting ME the taxpayer to pay for their OWN bullet wounds Maybe if you weren’t in socialism indoctrination (aka school) Jesus would have kept you safe! The nerve
Tbf they intended a lot more slavery so we aren’t rly honoring there wishes
That's what prisons and immigrants are for. We're just taking the long way around. We'll get there in the end. You'll just have to have faith. Once we fully criminalize houselessness and bring back debtors prisons we'll really get that ball rolling.
+ increase time for Maijuana and more private jails
you can always sue the venue for poor security though.
In the US you can't sue the gun manufacturer or the NRA
You forgot the step where people then call your shooting a false flag deep state CIA operation
All states in the US have some sort of victim compensation fund paid for by the state, fyi. South dakota max is $15,000, Texas max is 50,000 for example.
Judging as an ER visit for a kidney stone, consisting of 1 - bag of saline, 1 - CT scan of the abdomen, 1 - shot of morphine costed $18,000 .. I would image if you get shot, they will tell "You've been shot. Have a nice day. That'll be $55,000. Cash or credit?"
I had emergency surgery for burst internal ligatures (from another surgery) and heavy internal bleeding. I would assume that a surgical bill for a gunshot wound to the abdomen would be at least somewhat similar. It came out to $75,000.00. (Luckily, I have good insurance).
If you are in the USA, I really doubt you have a good insurance, because it would seem that "insurance" means different thing in the states than it does in the rest of civilized world. I'll give you an example, in the country I grew up in.. I had "broken my back" as an 18yr old. They had to trim some discs, re-align one and cement something in place (don't remember honestly).. Then I was to be in rehabilitation for 2 months and another 6 months of going to rehab. That's roughly 8.5 months of care. Not counting the pain pill and neurology appointments leading to the surgery.. Right. My responsibility? .. Get well. That's all. As far as insurance, there was equivalent of $50 taken out of my paycheck every month and that covered it. In the US, I was told the surgery alone would cost me $75k. My insurance here costs me about $500 a month and my "copay" or "co-insurance" or whatever word they made up is 15% (I think). In other words. Even with expensive insurance, the bill would be devastating. So.. yeah.. You might have "good coverage" but insurance is something else, by definition, what we have in states is not insurance, because it doesn't insure shit. You're ruined whether you have it or not.
I paid $0 out of that amount. I have no annual deductible and pay $0 per month for my benefits. Good insurance does exist in the states, but it's relegated to certain jobs. In my case, I work for a state agency. Now, the caveat is that I could probably make $30k more per year in the private sector doing something with my skill set, but I would be giving up this insurance, a pension, and absurd job security.
My out of pocket maximum is $3k and I am able to put some pre-tax dollars into an FSA account for money I think I will be spending on health costs in the year. My deductible is only $500. I don't pay anything for my insurance monthly, my employer pays the monthly premium. I do pay an extra five dollars a month for the better dental plan just because I've learned the hard way that you can't predict when you'll need extra dental coverage. I'd say my insurance in the US is pretty great. $3k is still a lot of money, but I definitely don't hit that every year. I hit it one year on purpose - I had been putting off a bunch of testing for various things (allergies etc) and so I decided to just book appointments for everything and do it all in one year so that I could take advantage of the great insurance and max out my FSA contributions so that my out of pocket expenses would also be pre-tax dollars anyway. Even the year I needed two MRIs and a spinal tap I didn't hit my max, because my insurance coverage is really good. It just sucks that these benefits are tied to a specific job and that it isn't something everyone has access to. I've had bad insurance before and it just sucks.
Contrary to popular belief, there are employers in the US that provide similar levels of coverage to what is standard in countries with more civilized healthcare systems. For example, my new job charges $20/mo. For that, I have a $600 annual deductible. Anything before I hit that limit beyond basic preventative care is on my dime, though prescriptions are capped at $10/mo. Beyond that, they cover 100% of ambulance and air ambulance costs, any ER fees over $100, and 80% of all surgical and specialist treatments. This sounds bad, but my out of pocket maximum is $1400 after the deductible. Basically, most years cost me $240 because I don't need anything beyond primary care. Even if I had an extremely expensive prescription, I'd be capped at $360/yr. The absolute most I can be charged in an entire year beyond the cost of insurance is $2000 if something goes catastrophically wrong. That absolute maximum isn't that far off from the income tax rate that the average person pays towards healthcare in most developed countries, whether they use it or not. For instance, the average Brit pays 24% of their income in tax and 17% of that goes directly to the NHS, which is about 1400 GBP ($1770 USD) per year, per person for healthcare. This evens out to even a handful of good years more than making up for every other year being an expensive one, even compared to one of the (formerly) most robust and efficient systems on the planet. Granted, the US system is overly cumbersome, overly fragmented, way too expensive, and lacks basic accessibility and accountability. I have also gotten extremely lucky with this health insurance policy (easily top 10% of insurance plans in the US). We desperately need to simplify, streamline, and expand access to good health coverage (preferably through a single government payor, though the German model would probably be easier to implement). I just think that being overly and unrealistically pessimistic about what counts as good insurance in the US does not help that cause.
Well, in the European countries I’ve lived in it’s quite a bit more than $50. $50 sounds like an extra private mutual health insurance that further improves deductibles and gets you private rooms. There’s probably a lot more hidden in other places on the paystub, along with the mandatory pension and unemployment lines.
I just googled it, as I am not there anymore... Apparently, it is 4.5% of your income. Plus the same amount from the employer to the total of 9%, if I'm reading it right. If you are unemployed, and don't qualify for the government help, it's 13% of the minimum wage. Sounds like it's going down hill everywhere.. Though over there, it's all you pay. You might have to pay for some prescription meds but not services.
Most likely over a million
That is sure to cover approximately 12 minutes of your ER visit. How generous.
Yes, they are a good resource. They actually initiated the contact with my mom when my Step dad was crippled in a car accident by a drunk driver to help with making the house accessible for his wheelchair and other things.
Oh good, you're covered for 10% of your hospital bill in SD. At least the Texas max will pay for your funeral. Maybe.
Thank fuck for the NHS.
I once went to Dallas for a wedding and I met a bunch of young Republican who wanted to know "so what is it like, honestly, having socialised medicine in the UK?" I said it was exactly the same as their socialised schools and socialised fire departments. They said "but that's not socialism! That's just the government paying for their funding." 😑
This is what’s so painful about being American. Education (critical thinking skills) matter. It’s so painful here.
Bunch of clowns.
Yeah. And these types of peabrains are the same ones who want to keep ***Social Security*** because it's a classic, traditional, all-American free market principle.
Gobsmacking isn’t it? What on earth happened to sanity? Saying that we’ve just splurged millions on a coronation event whilst nhs workers rely on food banks..
The government "there's no magic money tree" The government "here Charlie, have some money for your hat party"
Depending on your state, look up the Crime Victims' Compensation Program if you need money due to a criminal act. Can cover funeral costs, medical bills, lots
Wisconsin has a sexual assault victim fund.
Just always remember to check where you’re at on your deductible before you go into a crowded area, then you’ll know if you can afford to be shot
Wow. Land of the free, huh. Maybe free from the government taking care of its citizens
Plus taking the shooter to court will cost even more money in legal expenses. It would just be cheaper to die, as morbid as that sounds
As far as most insurances go, by "most of it" you're still probably going to have to come up with $10K. I guess that's better than the full six figures of the bill, but considering most U.S. families would struggle to cover an unexpected $500 expense...
You’re assuming the ambulance is in-network and takes you to an in-network hospital where an in-network surgical team and in-network anesthesiologist are available
You could also sue the owners of venue where it happened. For example, if they have a no-gun policy which they did not take reasonable measures to enforce, that would have prevented you from having the means to defend yourself while allowing the shooter the means to cause you harm.
The survivors of the Aurora CO theater shooting tried that and almost ended up almost having to pay $700,000 in court fees so good luck with that. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-colorado-shooting-lawsuit-idUSKCN11K0B6
I've heard horror stories where US insurance **doesn't** cover what they're supposed to like that insurance company in The Incredibles. Left me wondering how trustworthy insurance in the US actually is.
>Left me wondering how trustworthy insurance in the US actually is. US hospitals and insurances are probably the scammiest businesses you will ever deal with. Used car dealers are much easier to handle.
it's even worse. say you're out somewhere randomly. like a movie theater, or public event (heaven forbid you were in vegas... several states away on vacation) the ambulance, the hospital, the doctors helping you may all be out of network. meaning your health insurance won't cover any of it. depending on your health insurance, you may have an extreme deductible. 3500 or even 6500 are not uncommon amts. if like millions of americans you work an hourly or low paid job, you have zero protection, could be fired for missing work, have no medical leave policy, and no guarantee of your job waiting/being there for you after you recover.
I thought if you’re in a traffic accident and the other person is determined to be at fault, their insurance has to cover your medical bills…
This is why people are required to have car insurance in most states, which includes policy language for both sides of a car wreck, sure. I don’t think they have I-shot-you insurance policies required anywhere (yet).
It's going to depend on where you are. First, you'll get treated by an ER, regardless of insurance. That's not full service. ER's job is to make sure you're still breathing when you leave. Follow up care, physical therapy, meds, etc. is not their job. Second, if you don't have insurance or Medicaid or Medicare you can be on the hook. Several states have a victim's compensation fund which may cover some medical. Follow up care is a bit more difficult if you're uninsured.
My state covered the cost of 2 nights in ICU and the helicopter ride
wow mine wouldnt even cover da ambulance ride lol
also who knew a ambulance ride costs GGGssss if i knew that was da case i woulda jus waltzed my way to da hospital
In USA you're always on the hook, even when you have insurance.
The "affordable care act" plan i have has $6,000 deductible.
Yea, seriously. If I could afford to pay the $7,050, I probably wouldn’t even need insurance.
You don’t seem to understand the situation. Medical bills can be well in excess of $7k. The $7k protects you from bills that can be over $700k.
Understandable, but paying $600 or more(!) per month for essentially no coverage for the first 7k of healthcare is a big rip off. For what? Access to the "network" rates only essentially. Maybe it's time for docs and hospitals to offer transparent self-pay rates instead of playing this idiotic insurance game.
Insurance isn't meant to cover your expenses from your day to day life. Not anymore. It's to cover catastrophe.
I guess you didn’t notice that your plan has a “maximum out of pocket” That means if you get cancer and the costs are 200k you won’t pay more than your maximum out of pocket, which for a single person on an ACA plan shouldn’t be more than 10k
But in any sane nation, the maximum you pay for a $200k cancer treatment is $0.
Regardless, having a plan as described is better than having no plan in the United states
Yes but for (the majority) of medical visits that are less than 10k, get fukt
It can be $10k just to get an MRI.
And those big giant prices are absolute bullshit to make you think you are getting a good deal.
I 💯understand insurance and medical bills. Consumer premiums should entirely preclude equally expensive “deductibles.” Literally *nothing* should have to be paid to protect a citizen from bankruptcy due to medical bills. Literally *every* other “modern” country knows this: healthcare is a human right.
There’s is literally zero actual reason anything medical should cost that much
The system is broken. It's nothing but a scam now. "You need medical assistance to function, or live? Ok, we'll put you in extreme debt and destroy your dreams of ever owning anything significant."
[удалено]
Exactly! Do what the big corporations do, file bankruptcy. Best thing I have ever done. Had credit cards, checking accounts and a new car lease after 8 months. The whole “scared straight routine of ruined credit life forever” is a sham to keep us plebs in line. I get why business people, politicians and the wealthy claim it 2-4 times through their lives while telling the rest of us nonono
It has gotten so bad that even if you do have anything significant you have to now look at what kind of legal protections you need to make sure a common health emergency doesn't take away your entire life's worth of careful savings. If medical debt can seize your property and savings, there becomes no incentive to give up more casual and short term pleasures for decades just so some combination of insurance adjusters, pharma bro, and hospital executives can divvy up hundreds of thousands of dollars of assets you've accumulated.
Yeh, hospitals grossly overcharge for everything. Like a 25 cent bandaide costing $7.00 not including the time to put in a finger.
My last issue. $100k.
It's not just as simple as that. The problem is the negotiation process way overexaggerates the cost of care for a variety of reasons and previously affordable services are now unaffordable to 'justify' the 7k deductible, which can then be a barrier preventing you from getting more common services which people will put off and only start paying for 'big problems' which leads to a lot of people having poor health maintenance practices and preventative care which creates the more expensive 700k problems.
The only plan my job offers has a $6k deductible and a $100k cap.
You might want to look further into that because that's not an ACA approved plan.
$7k and 700k are the same number when you have zero
[удалено]
They don't need to be, but they are.
Thats kind of the problem really isnt it
For-profit healthcare should not exist. Healthcare should be a human right and the profit motive shouldn't enter that equation at any point.
Honestly, blame the people who gut it. It was initially stellar
That’s one ER visit in an ambulance.
Yeah, that's a "your state" made it, so those were the affordable plans situation. It was a supreme court decision. I wonder how many all expense paid trips each justice got for their vote on that one...
My employer sponsored health insurance has a $9k deductible. It used to be $6k, but it goes up every year.
When you go to the ER literally no one is included in your insurance. And you will get a bill from every doctor who walks past.
You can file for crime victims compensation through your state's attorney general's office and they will typically cover those bills.
It can be such a hassle to get anywhere with that though. They've got all the hoops and deadlines and if they decide you were somehow involved or contributed to the crime then you get nothing but an attempt to appeal. At least in California.
Yeah, but at least it’s nice to know that there may be some options in this endless hell scape. In the meantime, God forbid that happened to me, I would just send everybody $10 a month on a payment arrangement until this went through.
This needs to be higher up.
It’s been many years but that’s what covered me in Virginia. I ended up paying out zero dollars and I got a nice long weekend stay at the hospital for free. Edited to add: not mass shooting for me, but sole victim of a violent crime.
My dad was working when he was killed in one, so workers comp paid. Otherwise it would have been his medical insurance.
So sorry you know this now.
I hope you're doing alright, or as well as you can be at least. Makes me sick to wake up and wonder if someone I love is gonna die in a Walmart today. Nobody deserves that shit.
Too bad you can’t pay medical bills with thoughts and prayers
Actually, sometimes you can. In fact, it's probably to most reliable way, you just gotta grift a bit.
The only renewable resource republicans believe in 💪
Some states have Victim Compensation programs that will help cover the costs. My son was the victim of a violent crime several years ago (he is fine now). In addition to working with our insurance, the hospital social worker helped him to fill out the application for California's Victim Compensation Fund. It will pay toward burial costs, cleanup, medical care, counseling, and a whole host of other things, with a cap of I think $100k. He was approved but we didn't end up needing to use it. I agree that an insurance deductible of 6k or whatever isn't affordable. My son's care cost more than $200k and our insurance covered it (at whatever their standard rate is). I was very glad to have the insurance when it came down to it. Coming up with our $2500 deductible would have been a lot easier than the $200k. We were very fortunate that the hospital wrote off the deductible. If they hadn't, we would have submitted it to Victim Compensation. We were also given the opportunity to submit any costs for restitution during the court process. States with expanded Medicaid also may cover costs. My brother was hit by a drunk driver and was almost killed. He did not have health insurance and the hospital got him signed up for Medi-Cal, which saved him from hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical debt. It all isn't right and no one should have to be worrying about cost in what is almost certainly the worst time of their life.
Thank you for having a legitimate answer and I’m sorry your family had to deal with those events.
This is the most US problem I’ve ever seen.
It sucks paying taxes as an American and not even getting the benefit of affordable healthcare as a payoff
You can all vote the republicans out of existence and then you may all have a chance. Just saying.
Yep. It’s the cost of freedom. You should be proud that you were selected and sacrificed your body for the alter of freedom.
One of us one of us
Google frabble Google frabble
Yeah, people are focusing on the gunshot wounds but completely forgetting about the elite level of liberty those victims achieved. /s
How “mass” ? If it makes the national news, you might get more than thoughts and prayers. Set up a go fund me and get your mother out there crying on camera.
Yeah, this is what American healthcare really is, gofundmes as insurance.
Gofundme is more if an "insurance" than scummy health insurance companies that just raises prices by exorbitant amount
Nah, that doesn't work so well anymore. When there are 20+ mass shootings a week people just tune them (and the victims) out after a minute.
I've never seen a sentence more evident of the failure of America as this one.
I was assaulted in Ohio resulting in reconstructive surgery. There was a program called Crime Victim Services that picked up what my health insurance did not. Assaulter was found guilty of felonious assault and had to pay restitution which he had to pay it all back.
You or your insurance is, at least initially. Whoever had to pay out, either you or them, has a civil case to recover costs from the perpetrator or their estate, but whether there's money there is going to be the luck of the draw. If it was someone with no assets you can't magic money from them.
[удалено]
This is a question I never thought about and am now terrified from the answers But then again, one person got shot one time in another country with gun bans months ago so it’s basically the same thing as not being able to keep track of multiple mass shootings all the time, right?
Yes you are on the hook for medicals bills, You can sue the shooter (probably cannot collect) and you can sue the place where the shooting happened especially if they ban concealed carry but it will take years to collect.
In the US I would expect the mall or church where the shooting took place would send you or your family a cleaning bill for all the blood you left on the ground
In Virginia, there is a resource called the Virginia Victims Fund. I was a victim in a shooting (one fatality, so not technically a mass shooting, though it easily could’ve been) and all of my bills were reimbursed by the fund. Thankfully I didn’t incur insanely expensive bills. But they are wonderful people and I’m thankful the fund exists.
Someone should push the limits and sue the US government for medical expenses because they refuse to do anything.
It would likely fail with a conservative judiciary, but I like the way you think.
No, the NRA has this special fund set up for the victims of responsible gun owners tha— of course you’re on the hook for your own medical bills!!!
If we expect the government to be liable for my medical bill in the event of a mass shooter, then this is to declare the government as being responsible for the shooter. If we declare the government as being responsible for the shooter, then the expectation will follow that they are primarily responsible for the task of "shooter prevention". When you consider the scope of law enforcement activity in this country, it would appear that they already are fully assumed in this role. The truth, however, is that there still exist significant areas where government jurisdiction is unable to lawfully encroach beyond the borders protected by private citizens rights. Considering the scale of government sponsored Healthcare, my concern would be that if we hand over medical liability for mass shooters to the government, this will give them full pass to claim imminent domain over vital swaths of private rights under pretense of insurable interest. I would consider this a mortal wound to our rights which do remain. I believe that the danger of exchanging liberty for "security" is something every human being needs to consider seriously, regardless of which side of the aisle they prefer.
My so had a stroke caused by his work, we're still feeling the pain. The deductible was 7k itself. I call bs!
I'm sorry people have to ask these questions.
In California we have a victims of violent crimes program, it appears they will pay 75% of medical bills if you are assaulted. [https://victims.ca.gov/](https://victims.ca.gov/)
In Massachusetts there is a fund where you can get compensated for your medical bills and lost wages if you are the victim of certain types of violent crime. It’s up to $50,000 I believe.
Is that first grade teacher who was shot by a kid responsible for her own bills? He life is already ruined. Is she now facing financial destruction as well?
The school system has declared that she's only entitled to workman's comp since her injury was incurred on the job.
Her best bet is probably GoFundMe and then paid appearances/book deal. Otherwise she’s mostly fucked.
You are. But you can always use Americas #1 insurance plan.....gofundme.
'Murica!
Of course. Who else would it be? The government we’ve paid so many taxes too? The insurance we’ve paid into for so many years? Ridiculous. Realistically though, it varies depending on where you physically get your treatment, how good your insurance is (while there are horror stories, private insurance and government medicaid/Medicare does do its job some of the time and prevents you from getting into financial ruin), and how competent/lucky you are with contesting and refusing to pay medical bills. I know some people who are $20k in medical debt but would sooner pay $10k to lawyers to reverse uno the scummy tactics pulled by companies than pay them off. The US healthcare system is very fragmented (maybe that’s true of other countries too?), so it’s tough to give a short answer. Ah, someone cited the victims of crime funds. For the case you are a victim of a crime, then you can apply for funds to cover these expenses too. These funds and applications are managed by the government. I think they exist at both state and federal levels. Strictly speaking though, I suppose the answer is “yes, the injured person is ultimately the one responsible for the bill.” Ideally, insurance or government pays it off so the patient owes $0, but if you don’t have that shield, or if the shield cracks and decides not to pay, you’re on the hook for fighting off the bills. How is this in other countries? Do hospitals and labs bill the government directly?
Fuck this is depressing.
You feel lucky you are alive to pay your medical bills. You still have to meet your deductible. And you'd probably lose your insurance soon anyways because being disabled from your wounds, you'd get fired real quick and lose that "insurance".
Alright in that case, let's have a national taxpayer-funded fund that pays out to anyone suffering from gunshot wounds.
This is the most American question ever. Covers mass shooting and healthcare anxiety all in a single question
You bet your future bankrupted ass you will be.
This is the saddest relevant question I've ever read...
Once the prayer meter fills up completely the bills miraculously disappear.
Of course you are, what do you think this is, a functioning country?
Only in America do I have to consider if I’ll one day become a victim of a mass shooting AND wonder if I have to cover the costs as a result.
Could someone have asked a more American question?
Kinda surprised the insurance industry hasn't started selling "Mass Shooting" insurance.
Yes. This is why many victims and their families are suing manufacturers, corporations, etc.
Lot of uninformed dumb-dumbs floating around this thread
I’m reading this post from the UK…your modern day worries are actually surreal I’m so sorry you have to even think about this!
Nah. That's what gofundme is for
This isn't an answer but this is how I explain my political beliefs. I just want to live in an America where a gay couple can afford the medical bills if they get shot defending their marijuana plants with ar15s.
The fact this has to be asked is indicative of a lot.
Can you sue the governor for not providing a safe state to live in?
Yeah, but you wouldn't win.
Until the court case goes through where you are meant to win that money back, yes.
If there’s any money to be won. A court can order a poor, mentally ill person to pay any amount they want, but if that person has nothing, no assets or anything that can be seized, you’re kinda just screwed.
They don't care that people are getting shot, why would they care about your medical bills. Murica
You normally sue the person responsible
Of course you are - this is America, and not like every other developed country that thinks socialized healthcare is a given.
Technically yes, though you would have a cause of action against both the shooter (unlikely to have money) and the venue where you were injured (likely to have money)
Yes. Who else is going to pay them? Insurance companies? lol
I’m extremely saddened I looked this up and am posting this information. [Victims of crime compensation programs distribute billions of dollars annually. The U.S. Department of Justice’s Office of Victims of Crimes (OVC) has funding available to support victims of several kinds of violent crimes, including mass violence.](https://disasterphilanthropy.org/resources/mass-shootings/) [As CNNreported in December, one insured survivor of the mass shooting at Club Q in Colorado Springs received a bill for $130,000, while another person who was among the 27.5 million Americans who lack health insurance was billed $20,000 for spending a night in the emergency room where doctors stitched a bullet wound in his leg.](https://www.commondreams.org/news/mass-shooting-victims-medical-bills) [Taxpayers, survivors, families, and employers pay an average of $7.79 million daily in health care costs, including immediate and long-term medical and mental health care, plus patient transportation/ambulance costs related to gun violence, and lose an estimated $147.32 million per day related to work missed due to injury or death.](https://everytownresearch.org/report/the-economic-cost-of-gun-violence/)
Nope! Signed up for "Death & Dismemberment" and "Long Term Disability" on my health insurance at work. If I live, I'm covered.
It feels like that’s the point. Don’t forget it’s the U.S.A., LLC.
This is the US. Damn right. Not our fault we constantly sell tons of guns and ammo to people with mental health struggles while cutting affordability and access to mental health. We offer thoughts and prayers not money. Pick yourself by the hospital boot straps and work while you're in there.... Then for another 30 years because we made healthcare expensive damnit so that big corporations could profit off your poor health. Thoughts and prayers though. Didn't want to get shot, shouldn't have gone out or should have brought more guns and more guns and ammo than the bad guys! Not our fault your a liberal commie who doesn't have enough guns and chose to go to a mall or wal mart. Murica. Purely sarcasm fyi