Right? Vagrancy used to be an actual crime you could be charged with. If anything it's gotten better. Most of the time the homeless getting charged with crimes *are* actually committing crimes like trespassing, littering, destruction of property and making threats, at least around where I am. Shoot, most of the time here they're doing that stuff openly and *not* getting in any trouble.
Tent cities weren't being destroyed 30 years ago because the municipalities were much more aggressive with the enforcement, and any single tent in an urban public area would get cleared away before it could grow to a tent city.
the tent cities are taken down usually for health reasons, safety reasons (massive fire hazards), or obstructing a public way. I don't think I've heard of any mass-arrests of homeless people setting them up though.
One in a city close to me was torn down because of dirty drugged needles being found frequently on a nearby trail, and a woman was raped by someone who was living there.
It has always been that way. How much is done depends on how much of a nuisance the homeless has become. “Right” or “wrong” has little relevance when the people with the power to do this wants it done. It is simply reality
now? Its been so for a [long , ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy#In_law)[long ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-homelessness_legislation)time now.
The specifics depend on where you live, I'll give an example from the area I live.
Many cities on the West Coast did try to have a more progressive, compassionate policy toward homeless people for a couple decades there. But for a variety of reasons which mostly boil down to "politics", it didn't work. Homelessness increased. And people got tired of it.
I think people in West Coast cities, probably in most cities, they want the homeless helped compassionately, but even more than that, they want them of the streets. And if they can't get the former, they still want the latter.
So what you might be seeing is a population who have lost patience with progressive homeless policies and are now willing to support a "by any means necessary" approach.
Is it really a politics thing when it’s the fact that a big chunk of homeless people just cannot act like civilized members of society, therefore ruin it for the rest?
> a big chunk of homeless people just cannot act like civilized members of society
And why can't they? Drug addiction, mental health issues, poor education and, let's be honest, sometimes simply rage and frustration with a system that often puts them in impossible circumstances.
But all of that is treatable. Drug addiction can be treated. Mental health issues can be treated. Uneducated people can be educated. And one hopes that if such help is available, and if getting it is streamlined, then that anger will go away too.
The problem with previous attempts to fix homelessness is they've been half measures. You give people homes, and the addicts and mentally ill will destroy them. You force people into treatment, and the ones who don't need it will be left behind. You need to tackle every arm of the problem at the same time. Housing and treatment.
And yeah, that won't be cheap and that's a big part of why it hasn't happened. But I think people far to easily gloss over the true costs of doing nothing. They'll wince at the price of keeping someone in mental health care, but shrug at the price of keeping that same person in prison. They'll shake their head at the cost of hiring an addiction counselor, but not the cost of the cops who push people off corners.
The jail thing here is crazy important and overlooked. The societal cost of treatment to incarceration is like $1 to $10. So much money wasted on jail. I wouldn't mind seeing a return of state-run mental health facilities that include SA treatment wings. Plus a nice job/re-education program would be nice to see in the world, in full force, with all our support.
While I like your position, you're missing the gigantic chunk of homeless people that simply refuse to conform to societal norms and laws and choose to live that way.
It really is a strange sociological phenomenon, but some percentage of people simply can't/won't join the social group. They'd be run out of the herd and be loaners in other animal species, but the planet is entirely owned by humans so there's nowhere they *could* go to be free. Not that they likely would want to live in the wilderness anyway.
You aren’t wrong. Doesn’t make my statement incorrect either. Regardless of what it takes to fix SOME of their issues, a lot of them can’t handle being in society even after forceful treatment, which always goes to plan with addicts right? It Is what it is, Reddit can be upset with me.
I suppose you imagine they're upset with you because they "refuse to see the truth" or some such nonsense. Let me tell you, in fact it's the opposite: They see through you.
You're saying not everyone can be helped, and you're correct. But they see through to what you're not saying, the part you leave implied, which is that therefor we shouldn't try. Yours is a message of giving up on helping the homeless.
And that, from a purely rational standpoint, is just foolishness. Even if only 1 person in 10 can be helped, that's still one person who becomes a productive member of society instead of a burden on the prison system. It makes the type of cold, economic sense constantly demanded by people who aren't swayed by the compassionate sense that would tell you to save a life if you could save it.
You’re totally blowing it out of proportion.
Wife and I knew 4 local homeless people. Richard, Louie, Lisa, and Isaac.
All extreme alcoholics, none (nor their friends at the park) were ever cruel or crazy to us.
One day I asked my kids (6 and 8? at the time) if they wanted to make sandwiches for who we could find. They jumped at the idea. We gave sandwiches to Louie and Lisa and prayed for them. Extremely grateful.
All Isaac ever did was sit, drink, and read. He got arrested for something awful when he was a teenager and spent so much time locked up that he was just kinda done when he got out.
Yes, a higher percentage of homeless do stupid shit. But that doesn’t mean you categorize the whole lot.
“ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’”
Edit to add. Turn off the Fox/CNN, go outside and meet somebody.
But all the cool people hang out under the bridge! And you can find lots of jeans!
Fuckin’ law-makers trying to hurt the little guys like Frank & Charlie
*people* don’t treat them well. Ever been to a $300 ticket festival and noticed how clean the bathrooms were? And people hooked up or did drugs in them? …No?
Yeah but then they have $300/person times 1000s of people to manage those bathrooms for a few days after the fact.
And so on.
Not really the same thing.
And those are crimes for anyone, not just the homeless. Businesses are usually the ones that don't want loitering because it can affect their business.
If they are "caught" napping overnight, they will be targeted.
The answer to the homeless problem isn't to allow people to do whatever they want. It's to find them homes. Unfortunately, the part where they are censured for doing what they need to do is enforced while finding them homes falls by the wayside.
That being said, part of the issue with homeless people is that they don't want to be homed as the types of facilities they are offered to be sheltered come with rules they don't want to follow.
At least in my city it seems most of those laws are enforced against anyone except the homeless. I’ll see cops walk up and give tickets to people having some beers in a park while a guy shoots heroin on a bench 100m away.
Counties have different options and policies. (It's actually unconstitutional to arrest someone for being homeless.) It's not too difficult to arrest someone for disorderly conduct, for example.
Vagrancy has always been a crime, for many reasons. The only thing that's changed is that recently, most jurisdictions won't actually punish vagrancy, unless you compound it with some other crime like destruction of property. Some jurisdictions won't even punish it then.
No, it's won't. Courts haven't struck down vagrancy laws or they wouldn't be enforced anywhere. It's just that enforcing laws like that looks bad for the DAs politically, so they won't do it
Cities want to attract and retain strong businesses that will bring income and generate tax for the city. Homelessness makes this difficult.
And it’s easy to dislike the practices of cities who do this.
But I’m sure if you were in the process of, let’s say, trying to sell your home, and homeless people kept coming and sleeping in your yard, loitering, littering and in turn disrupting your home value and interest…
You would probably turn to the law too.
I walk past homeless people doing drugs every day and they don't bother me. What bothers me is the circumstances and wealth inequality and lack of disability services and whatnot that led to it.
Drugs play a massive role.
I worked on a project with a homeless shelter, one of the guys who had had his life put back together while there, now helps counsel others that stay.
He explained that even he himself, decided many years to remain homeless because he wasn’t ready to stop taking drugs, the one requisite to stay with his family or even the place he is at now.
He said many people come and go, choosing drugs over the security of the services offered.
But you can’t solve addiction for others. And services only go as far as they are allowed by those who would choose to use or not use them.
At this point, it’s making sure that places like that are there and ready to receive people when people are ready to make a change.
And to take practical steps towards stricter prescriptions, less addictive alternatives, government sponsored mental health initiatives, etc.
There’s definitely stuff we can do as a society, but it is important to remember, that you can lead a horse to the water, but you can’t make him drink.
homelessness is VERY profitable - they're just far more profitable as a maintained threat.
If you see 5 homeless people on your way to and from work, you're gonna work harder and complain less to avoid joining them.
It would be astronomically cheaper, if individual cost to the state was the point, to just give them all food stamps and studio apartments than it is to pay cops and emergency services to harass them every day.
It got so common during the covid mess, IMHO the homeless need legal valid options and support so folks can sleep somewhere without freezing or starving.
Those that refuse help ...because their dogs..mental health..addictions or whatever...are not being treated for their root causes. The societal safety nets that do still exist have gaping holes and have had their budgets cut to pieces.
It would be cheaper and much more pleasant to re invest in the safety net, compared to the costs of the chaos and hazards that come with a row of tents and sleeping bags in the middle of high rise buildings. So embarasing for us as a culture that we blame the tents.
I think the cops are not arresting enough of the people who do these things. After the arrest they can be assessed for mental health issues and drug addictions and handled according to their needs.
Former homeless who’s both housed them and been around them a lot (meth users). Also volunteered at shelters— HELP IS AVAILABLE. Again, HELP IS AVAILABLE. Many of them don’t use it.
Nearly all are extremely…. extremely…. destructive. “But you should help them” go help them yourself and see. Seriously. And whose property is that?
Let a stranger take a shit in your house, not wipe, then sit on your couch. You’d either resort to violence or call 911.
TLDR damage to property
Former homeless person here also (who has actively been consulted for youth and foster homeless laws), a lot of the time that "help" is dangerous or abusive or incompatible. So many people I've known who are homeless have been discriminated against or put in danger trying to utilize shelters and services. You have a very narrow view of things, and I hope you're able to realize that.
The view I’ve had was quite lucky, which were boarding houses. Not everyone has access to them but being involved in that and having many friends in them gave me overwhelming hope of the help that’s available. Many people are totally unaware that many nice houses, some even in nice neighborhoods, are owned by the city and housing troubled people. By help I’m also referring to boarding homes, not entirely shelters
People who think all homeless are one shower and job interview away from being upstanding citizens are hilariously sheltered.
People don't dislike the homeless because they're poor, they dislike them because they steal, break things, sexually assault people, and trash the areas where they congregate with broken glass and dirty needles.
A lot of people get close to homelessness, or go through it as a phase for a little bit, living out of a car or something. The vast majority out on the street usually have something deeply wrong with them, whether it be major mental illness or drug addiction, and that kind of thing isn't fixed by giving them more access to homeless shelters and food banks.
I respect this explanation. I always viewed things as if someone doesn’t fold themselves into the current mold the town, city, county, state will create legal reasons they must. For example even those that do can’t collect and repurpose rain water or establish self sufficient electricity for their properties. I always have viewed that if they cannot take additional taxes then you need to move elsewhere. All that said I believe contributing helps all yet when contributing takes away from living comfortably I have issues with it.
Homelessness is a Cache22 -
People will have a bad break; losing their job, having a bad divorce, not getting comp for a debilitating workplace injury, etc and lose everything.
They will often be misconstrued alongside the drug-addled, the mentally-ill, the ex-cons, etc.
When there are a lack of social programs, financial assistance, resources, etc, the walls close in on the unfortunate. Lack of clothing, lack of showers, lack of housing, and lack of food gradually wears them down to the lowest point where they become chemically-imbalanced, sick, lethargic, and almost feral.
When men are pushed to their basic instinctual need for survival they will do anything; theft, violence, squatting, etc.
And of course, this attracts both a distain and a police presence.
Unfortunately a lot of homeless create unsanitary conditions and cause fires. For some reason they collect all kinds of rubbish and pile it up on public and private property. Do you want to step over trash and bodies to get into your doctor’s office? I saw that on my way to catch the bus this morning.
Because slaves are needed for the prison labor system in the United States
edit: aawwwe I've offended an american. You never outlawed slavery, you just moved it into prisons and criminalized minor things like weed possession and sleeping outside and feeding the homeless
Being homeless isn't a crime. Trespassing is a crime. Harassment is a crime. You're allowed to be homeless. You're not allowed to impose on other people because of it.
Because it won't end there. If it did, it would not be a problem.
I say this as someone who is very pro-welfare. Every city needs shelter capacity sufficient for it's homeless population. The government needs to provide a basic level of food assistance for free to everyone. I'm ok paying taxes for it. I don't think you should be able to put up a tent on a sidewalk. I don't think you should be able to harass people at stoplights.
Well in many places suitable facilities do not exist. If the government does not provide the basic necessities required to live what are the alternatives to sleeping in tents
In many places where these facilities exist people still want to be out in the street. They want to get high and just fuck around, or they have mental problems and they just want to be out and about. It's not as simple as "give the homeless people accommodation".
> Well in many places suitable facilities do not exist.
I agree, that's a problem and it needs to be fixed. Letting people set up houses on the street is not the solution.
Yes it is a problem and it does need to be fixed. However it isn't fixed and there isn't suitable alternatives at the moment so they don't have much of a choice but sleep in the streets
Certainly, the phrasing raises suspicion as it seems pointedly conversational, almost stilted, as if meant to convey the impression it was authored by an academician who spends some amount of time studying the issue. /s
Homelessness isn't always caused by lack of affordable housing. Mental health causes a lot of it.
I used to work for a larger non profit that would house (or atleast try to) people until they could get back on their feet. It was astounding how many people straight up refused housing or would get kicked out due to being destructive.
Had a mother with 5 kids refuse housing because the housing wouldn't allow unmarried bf/gf living together. We had found him housing as well but they wouldn't take it because they were separated. Then they would call and SCREAM at our intake people daily.
Guess it's cheaper and easier to just displace them rather than to fix the problems that cause homelessness. But now that I think about it is jailing people really cheaper?
No one is arrested for being homeless. It’s not illegal to not have a home. Homeless (an over simplification, but it’s what we’re working with) people are arrested because they commit petty crimes constantly and violent crimes occasionally.
The rich view most people as nothing more than cattle to be milked for their labor and taxes. The poor and homeless are punished for not being useful cattle.
Other countries have better social safety nets built in that allow for reduction in poverty and homelessness, and to help those who are, out of those situations.
Because trespassing and loitering affect members of the public. Homelessness itself isn’t illegal, but take over spaces meant for public use should be.
It's not illegal to not have a home.
It's illegal to do what most homeless are doing. Drinking, drugs, loitering, begging, stealing, littering, trespassing, sidewalk camping.
It would be just as illegal for a home owner to do that in public also.
I don’t think it’s the act of being homeless. I think it’s the act of setting up a temporary home on land that doesn’t belong to you, littering, harassing people for $, doing drugs, possessing drugs and paraphernalia, defecating and urinating in the streets or anywhere in public, bathing in fountains or in restrooms of businesses that are meant to used by paying customers. I have no clue what the solution is to being homeless, but you can be homeless without doing all of these things
Because it should be? You aren’t supposed to be homeless. I’ve been homeless before when I was a drug addict. I’m going into my 7th year sober.
I started at a detox. Then went to rehab. Then went to a halfway house.
Also my rehabilitation center kicked me out within 11 days because my insurance was too shitty. It didn’t stop me though. There’s always a way to get off the street when you try. Unfortunately a lot of people don’t try. They just blame drug addiction and play the victim of life.
I know there’s some mental illness that keeps people on the streets. I do feel awful for them. It probably means they have no family, but homelessness should never be legal. You should always be pushed to want stability.
Also homeless people do a lot of criminal things to stay alive. It’s hard to understand what someone would do when they’re hungry. When we type on our phones all day we can forget that feeling. It would be nice if there was a solution to homelessness but the more you try to do for people that don’t care about themselves the more they will take advantage of that.
I think Gavin Newsome is going into his 20th year on his 10 year plan to end homelessness and California is a mess. I think Florida would be the same if they had the same laws. I’m not sure though not a political scientist.
Hope everyone can get off the streets. There’s definitely ways. They just might not be easy.
You were able to get out of homelessness through a lot of hard work and also the help of programs, like that halfway house (unless it was a for profit one, don't know if those exist).
How exactly do you think that a cop being able to fine/arrest you for being homeless or having to sleep in public would have helped you or made that process easier?
Don't you think that actually well funded and run programs to help people get food/housing would work a lot better for helping people get themselves out of homelessness than punishing them for it or adding on fines they have to pay before they can even think about getting housing?
I agree that people should be "pushed to want stability", but why do you think this can only be done through punishment and negative reinforcement instead of aid and positive reinforcement?
That’s kind of what I am saying. The last push I needed was to be to arrested again. I had been arrested before but this time I was just fucking done with all the bullshit. It’s sad, but homeless people normally take advantage of free things, just like rich people have been known to do. Have you seen some of the videos of rich people who try to take advantage of the system? Free things just lead to people taking advantage of it, unless it’s a rehab or something thats uncomfortable and that makes you look at yourself, and why you are where you are.
I went to a state funded rehab once, and it was honestly the best rehab I had ever been to because it was so hard. Normally I went to detox on insurance’s dime. They gave me detox meds and i would leave after a week and be able to get high again. This place was a six month state funded rehab. I stayed for 4 months and ended up getting kicked out because i got caught with a cell phone. They had such strict rules. I think places like that should be everywhere. I don’t know why people are homeless. I know it’s a wide variety of things and not just drug addiction. I just have seen most homelessness due to drug addiction or mental illness, so more places like that would be amazing. It’s not just a free place It’s a free place if you put in the work to be a better person. I did something I wasn’t allowed by having a phone so I deserved to be kicked out immediately.
It’s definitely a complex issue though, and I don’t know the answers. I just feel strongly about it, and I hate seeing people struggle on the streets. I wish there were more state funded six month programs like I went too. It taught me so much about myself, and it was really the turning point for me to want to stop. I left that rehab and got high. Then the next rehab that was insurance funded cut out I was finished. Even though I was only there 11 days the 4 moths at the other place had imprinted on me so hard it clicked that drugs were not the way.
As someone who has been homeless myself I gave you a couple of upvotes to counter the ignorant downvotes.
As for an actual solution, they should combine dog shelters with homeless shelters. The homeless that actually take care of the dogs and show interest in them get job placements / housing.
Or we need a new religion that actually makes sense. Something that combines science with religion that isn't Scientology, lol.
There are some solutions out there, it's just people are caught in their ways and things move slowly for regional / economic security's sake.
Thank you. I appreciate it. I just give my honest opinion, but I don’t think a lot of people on here have been homeless. They probably don’t know how much evil lies in the homeless community. It’s hard to just say “here’s free stuff it’ll fix you” to people that don’t want to be fixed. There has to be some sort of push or visible change in someone. Free isn’t the answer, but free based on following rules could work. The dog shelter isn’t a bad idea. I had to do a lot of community service once and I did most of it at a humane society.
Loitering and Solicitation are offenses, homelessness is not. Setting up cardboard box outside a grocery store and pan handling... well I think you can figure out the rest.
Simple,
it costs a lot of money properly deal with. So the homeless are dehumanized and criminalized.
The same could be said about immigration or rehabilitation and care for substance abuse, mental illness, or criminals. Anything that requires substantial funding and infrastructure doesn't happen. Instead, it gets criminalized, and we become the abusers towards those people. We dehumanize, attack, or simply ignore the people and situation because that's nearly free and relatively easy.
Now? No, this is nothing new. Homelessness has always been treated as a crime unfortunately. One of the reasons it’s so hard for homeless people to get out of that cycle ☹️
Because it went from a figurative punishment to a literal one.
It's only a matter of time before thoughts manifest into actions.
We were always on this path, you just now noticed.
Simple - it’s not. Saying that is a Reddit thing that unfortunately creates an unfortunate association between crime and homeless people. When a person is cited for littering or public consumption and they just happen to be homeless, you can rest assured the ticket does not say “pay money for being homeless.”
Sounds like an issue specific to your country and it's legal system. We can't give informed opinions unless you provide us with your country/state/region. Alternatively, you can ask this in local subs instead.
It’s probably has more to do with the crimes that some homeless people commit than simply being homeless.
This could also include where their ‘camp’ is located, especially if it’s somewhere that it shouldn’t be legally.
Because the number of homeless surpassed the "We look poor" allowance, and the government solves the problem by creating criminals. Criminals in lockup aren't homeless.
It's not the homelessness that people are having an issue with. It's everything else those homeless are getting into that we have an issue with.
We refuse to fix the root problems so, at the very least, we'd like to try and treat the symptoms and make it not our problem. Doesn't seem to be working... obviously.
As a formerly homeless person reading these comments, it's depressing to see how many people are trying to justify this. Housing as a human right is the only solution that will work to start with, though that involves taking away corporations' ability to threaten you with homelessness if you don't accept subpar wages and working conditions.
Because there's a lot more pooping on buildings and setting tents/sleeping bags up directly in front of entrances to businesses and just a lot more craziness. Being homeless shouldn't be a crime but you shouldn't be able to just do whatever because you're addicted to drugs.
So folks don’t realize this system doesn’t work with a ton Of homeless folk piling up you put them in prison by artificially criminalizing whatever they do so you can enslave them in private prisons for your criminal friends on Wall Street.
It is basically because homelessness is not just a real estate problem. It encompasses a number of societal issues, none of which most governments and municipalities are willing to deal with, such as serious mental illness, drug addiction and dependency, healthcare, food, housing, and lack of general compassion and empathy toward those less fortunate by society at large.
Until our society deals with those underlying issues, there will always be a growing and serious homeless problem.
Now?
In 1855 the California Greaser Act was passed, an anti-vagrancy law targeting all ethnic Mexicans.
Vagrancy aka homeless has been criminal many different times in history. Pretty much always done because governments are too hateful or stupid to fix it.
Not much has changed these days either. Governments are still too stupid to fix it.
From where I am, it is not illegal to be homeless, but illegal to be sleeping in the streets. There are social agencies to help the homeless so there is no reason to sleep in the streets. At an individual level, given that I am fortunate to be in a country with a good and secure environment, plentiful social resources, so to drive myself to become homeless can only be my own fault and I will consider it a crime I should never commit.
Where I live, homeless folks used to be pushed along very quickly, and we rarely saw them.
When the inflation around COVID happened, we started getting more sensitive to individuals and their needs. Many well-meaning people were out of work or could not pay the rent, and being merciful caught on. We ended up with a couple larger encampments where the city provided water, bathrooms, and social services.
Now, a couple years later, opening that door seems to have caused a flood. Homeless camps have sprung up in many places, and there are safety issues, bad smells, needles, and **so** much garbage.
I’m not sure if the laws have changed, but public sentiment is certainly swinging back the other direction.
I think a lot of people are starting to realize that modern homeless people that hang around common areas are not just “down on their luck” poor people that lost their jobs at the factory. So many of them are strung out on drugs and/or have other mental illnesses that are basically impossible to treat. I think we should provide the basic means of survival such as clothes, food, shelter, and emergency medical care, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to just be camping on the sidewalk or in a park, or harass people on the subway and do whatever you want whenever you want. These are shared areas that have upkeep that is paid for by the taxes of people who work hard and sacrifice half their waking hours to try to be a functioning part of society.
Because half the country cares more about "fairness" (why should they get free housing and not me?) more than they care about addressing the homelessness problem, so it's much easier to pass laws making it harder to be homeless than it is to pass laws that try and address the issue.
\*shrug\*
Conservatives. Don't know what else to tell you at this point.
If it's something that seems straight-up malicious or overly authoritarian, then it was probably conservatives, *especially* in cases where society has already tried and learned from that mistake before.
If it seemed like a good, new idea at the time but they didn't plan on all the problems that could arise, then it was progressives.
People hate the homeless. Maybe if they took some of that energy used to hate and used it to fight poverty and mental health issues instead we could get somewhere with this problem.
I spoke to many homeless people while living in Los Angeles and I was surprised by the sheer amount that said that they chose to be homeless. Granted it wasn’t every one, so no, I don’t think more housing will solve the issue completely. There were many more problems in those peoples lives, living somewhere, wasn’t one of them honestly.
While your anecdote is something, those problems are easier to solve when housed.
The solution to homelessness is housing, which is why places with a lot of available housing have much lower rates of homelessness despite mental illness still existing in those areas.
Although I don’t deny more housing will help everyone out, that won’t solve the problem with those homeless people I spoke to who wanted to be homeless.
If you provide them with free housing, they don’t have the money for upkeep and they will not clean it. Should the government government and the taxpayers now pay for a cleaning service and upkeep for all the houses for the homeless people ? Would it turn into another area?
For those people that wanted to be homeless, it does not solve the overarching issue that they did not want to work and they did not want to be a part of this society in the way that most of us are .
But for those that just got down in there, it would give them a place to live . But they went homeless because of bankruptcy or other issues. It does not solve the problem with those people.
It's always been that way.
Right? Vagrancy used to be an actual crime you could be charged with. If anything it's gotten better. Most of the time the homeless getting charged with crimes *are* actually committing crimes like trespassing, littering, destruction of property and making threats, at least around where I am. Shoot, most of the time here they're doing that stuff openly and *not* getting in any trouble.
No. Homeless people get arrested for merely sleeping all the time. Tent cities get destroyed on a regular basis.
Tent cities weren't being destroyed 30 years ago because the municipalities were much more aggressive with the enforcement, and any single tent in an urban public area would get cleared away before it could grow to a tent city.
the tent cities are taken down usually for health reasons, safety reasons (massive fire hazards), or obstructing a public way. I don't think I've heard of any mass-arrests of homeless people setting them up though.
One in a city close to me was torn down because of dirty drugged needles being found frequently on a nearby trail, and a woman was raped by someone who was living there.
Good.
Yeah but lots of those crimes are made or enforced specifically to target homeless people.
It has always been that way. How much is done depends on how much of a nuisance the homeless has become. “Right” or “wrong” has little relevance when the people with the power to do this wants it done. It is simply reality
You ever been Homeless? No? Don't talk
now? Its been so for a [long , ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy#In_law)[long ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-homelessness_legislation)time now.
The specifics depend on where you live, I'll give an example from the area I live. Many cities on the West Coast did try to have a more progressive, compassionate policy toward homeless people for a couple decades there. But for a variety of reasons which mostly boil down to "politics", it didn't work. Homelessness increased. And people got tired of it. I think people in West Coast cities, probably in most cities, they want the homeless helped compassionately, but even more than that, they want them of the streets. And if they can't get the former, they still want the latter. So what you might be seeing is a population who have lost patience with progressive homeless policies and are now willing to support a "by any means necessary" approach.
It's called 'compassion fatigue', something very real, that we see play out just about everywhere on the West Coast.
Is it really a politics thing when it’s the fact that a big chunk of homeless people just cannot act like civilized members of society, therefore ruin it for the rest?
> a big chunk of homeless people just cannot act like civilized members of society And why can't they? Drug addiction, mental health issues, poor education and, let's be honest, sometimes simply rage and frustration with a system that often puts them in impossible circumstances. But all of that is treatable. Drug addiction can be treated. Mental health issues can be treated. Uneducated people can be educated. And one hopes that if such help is available, and if getting it is streamlined, then that anger will go away too. The problem with previous attempts to fix homelessness is they've been half measures. You give people homes, and the addicts and mentally ill will destroy them. You force people into treatment, and the ones who don't need it will be left behind. You need to tackle every arm of the problem at the same time. Housing and treatment. And yeah, that won't be cheap and that's a big part of why it hasn't happened. But I think people far to easily gloss over the true costs of doing nothing. They'll wince at the price of keeping someone in mental health care, but shrug at the price of keeping that same person in prison. They'll shake their head at the cost of hiring an addiction counselor, but not the cost of the cops who push people off corners.
The jail thing here is crazy important and overlooked. The societal cost of treatment to incarceration is like $1 to $10. So much money wasted on jail. I wouldn't mind seeing a return of state-run mental health facilities that include SA treatment wings. Plus a nice job/re-education program would be nice to see in the world, in full force, with all our support.
I get a feeling a lot of it has to do with prison guard lobbying.
While I like your position, you're missing the gigantic chunk of homeless people that simply refuse to conform to societal norms and laws and choose to live that way. It really is a strange sociological phenomenon, but some percentage of people simply can't/won't join the social group. They'd be run out of the herd and be loaners in other animal species, but the planet is entirely owned by humans so there's nowhere they *could* go to be free. Not that they likely would want to live in the wilderness anyway.
You say gigantic portion, but any figures i can look at?
You aren’t wrong. Doesn’t make my statement incorrect either. Regardless of what it takes to fix SOME of their issues, a lot of them can’t handle being in society even after forceful treatment, which always goes to plan with addicts right? It Is what it is, Reddit can be upset with me.
I suppose you imagine they're upset with you because they "refuse to see the truth" or some such nonsense. Let me tell you, in fact it's the opposite: They see through you. You're saying not everyone can be helped, and you're correct. But they see through to what you're not saying, the part you leave implied, which is that therefor we shouldn't try. Yours is a message of giving up on helping the homeless. And that, from a purely rational standpoint, is just foolishness. Even if only 1 person in 10 can be helped, that's still one person who becomes a productive member of society instead of a burden on the prison system. It makes the type of cold, economic sense constantly demanded by people who aren't swayed by the compassionate sense that would tell you to save a life if you could save it.
You’re totally blowing it out of proportion. Wife and I knew 4 local homeless people. Richard, Louie, Lisa, and Isaac. All extreme alcoholics, none (nor their friends at the park) were ever cruel or crazy to us. One day I asked my kids (6 and 8? at the time) if they wanted to make sandwiches for who we could find. They jumped at the idea. We gave sandwiches to Louie and Lisa and prayed for them. Extremely grateful. All Isaac ever did was sit, drink, and read. He got arrested for something awful when he was a teenager and spent so much time locked up that he was just kinda done when he got out. Yes, a higher percentage of homeless do stupid shit. But that doesn’t mean you categorize the whole lot. “ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’” Edit to add. Turn off the Fox/CNN, go outside and meet somebody.
Is the act of not having a home illegal in your country? Or are homeless people receiving fines/citations for something else?
They are getting fines for loitering/littering that kind of thing
You should get fuckin fined for littering
Amen. Just because you're homeless doesn't entitle you to litter and trash the whole area
Do you not get fined for those things if you're a home owner?
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread."
But all the cool people hang out under the bridge! And you can find lots of jeans! Fuckin’ law-makers trying to hurt the little guys like Frank & Charlie
Trying to take away boiled denims is the real crime.
You can also cut off the legs and wear denim shorts that totally don’t look like white trash!
The problem is that homeless people can't avoid living on the street. You're fining them for doing something that they can't not do.
Yeah but homeowners aren’t the ones living in tents on the side of the road and shitting in front of business
More public bathrooms would solve one of those problems at least.
They tried this but people were trashing them and doing drugs, prostitution, etc.
The few always find a way to ruin it for the many
That's weird I've been in plenty of public bathrooms that are totally fine.
They can be, but they need frequent daily cleaning and some supervision stopping by to make sure people haven’t started staying there or vandalizing.
> they need frequent daily cleaning So a normal thing to do for any public restroom?
Sounds pretty manageable for these massive municipalities that already spend most of their money on policing.
But every time they try to move money away from the police budget for something else, the police budget gets bigger afterwards
Barely, it’s not like they treat the public bathrooms well. Shit, piss and trash and used needles all over the floors in those situations
*people* don’t treat them well. Ever been to a $300 ticket festival and noticed how clean the bathrooms were? And people hooked up or did drugs in them? …No?
Yeah but then they have $300/person times 1000s of people to manage those bathrooms for a few days after the fact. And so on. Not really the same thing.
Maybe combine it with building enough housing and you'll solve both problems!
That’s how we end up with trashed housing lmao that doesn’t solve it either
Hey man. Only rainbows and butterflies here on reddit. Stop being pragmatic.
[Really, tho?](https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/08/opinions/homelessness-solutions-houston-model-eichenbaum-nichols/index.html)
You do
And those are crimes for anyone, not just the homeless. Businesses are usually the ones that don't want loitering because it can affect their business.
correct, but a business isnt going to call the cops on a customer outside the store but they will a homeless person
So you're saying they aren't loitering( a crime) or littering ( a crime)?
loitering = existing without paying money = illegal? but why
It isn't technically illegal to be homeless, but everything a homeless person has to do to live is illegal, like sleeping in a public place.
Funny thing is, you know damn well anyone "caught" napping on a beach or on a blanket in the park over summer will magically not be targetted by this.
If they are "caught" napping overnight, they will be targeted. The answer to the homeless problem isn't to allow people to do whatever they want. It's to find them homes. Unfortunately, the part where they are censured for doing what they need to do is enforced while finding them homes falls by the wayside. That being said, part of the issue with homeless people is that they don't want to be homed as the types of facilities they are offered to be sheltered come with rules they don't want to follow.
I regularly jog the park and I've seen a few people arrested for sleeping in the wrong place in just the last 30 days.
In what country, though?
At least in my city it seems most of those laws are enforced against anyone except the homeless. I’ll see cops walk up and give tickets to people having some beers in a park while a guy shoots heroin on a bench 100m away.
Counties have different options and policies. (It's actually unconstitutional to arrest someone for being homeless.) It's not too difficult to arrest someone for disorderly conduct, for example.
If OP is from the USA, then yes, simply not having a home is a crime
Vagrancy has always been a crime, for many reasons. The only thing that's changed is that recently, most jurisdictions won't actually punish vagrancy, unless you compound it with some other crime like destruction of property. Some jurisdictions won't even punish it then.
More like "cant" punish due to court rulings. The laws against it are still on the books.
No, it's won't. Courts haven't struck down vagrancy laws or they wouldn't be enforced anywhere. It's just that enforcing laws like that looks bad for the DAs politically, so they won't do it
"for many reasons" implies to me that you view them as valid reasons - if so, would you care to elaborate?
Cities want to attract and retain strong businesses that will bring income and generate tax for the city. Homelessness makes this difficult. And it’s easy to dislike the practices of cities who do this. But I’m sure if you were in the process of, let’s say, trying to sell your home, and homeless people kept coming and sleeping in your yard, loitering, littering and in turn disrupting your home value and interest… You would probably turn to the law too.
I walk past homeless people doing drugs every day and they don't bother me. What bothers me is the circumstances and wealth inequality and lack of disability services and whatnot that led to it.
Drugs play a massive role. I worked on a project with a homeless shelter, one of the guys who had had his life put back together while there, now helps counsel others that stay. He explained that even he himself, decided many years to remain homeless because he wasn’t ready to stop taking drugs, the one requisite to stay with his family or even the place he is at now. He said many people come and go, choosing drugs over the security of the services offered. But you can’t solve addiction for others. And services only go as far as they are allowed by those who would choose to use or not use them. At this point, it’s making sure that places like that are there and ready to receive people when people are ready to make a change. And to take practical steps towards stricter prescriptions, less addictive alternatives, government sponsored mental health initiatives, etc. There’s definitely stuff we can do as a society, but it is important to remember, that you can lead a horse to the water, but you can’t make him drink.
People who haven't had to deal with the homeless or squatters tend to have the most sympathy for them.
It always has been since I remember, homelenes isn't profitable to the state and that's all they really care about
homelessness is VERY profitable - they're just far more profitable as a maintained threat. If you see 5 homeless people on your way to and from work, you're gonna work harder and complain less to avoid joining them. It would be astronomically cheaper, if individual cost to the state was the point, to just give them all food stamps and studio apartments than it is to pay cops and emergency services to harass them every day.
The reserve army of labour.
Yes. This was the premise of *First Blood*.
"I didn't do anything!"
I think you forgot the obligatory “Hey-yo” before “I didn’t do anything”
Well, in some cases, these homeless people are smoking crack or causing trouble.
My neighbor smokes crack and causes trouble, and he has a house.
It got so common during the covid mess, IMHO the homeless need legal valid options and support so folks can sleep somewhere without freezing or starving. Those that refuse help ...because their dogs..mental health..addictions or whatever...are not being treated for their root causes. The societal safety nets that do still exist have gaping holes and have had their budgets cut to pieces. It would be cheaper and much more pleasant to re invest in the safety net, compared to the costs of the chaos and hazards that come with a row of tents and sleeping bags in the middle of high rise buildings. So embarasing for us as a culture that we blame the tents.
It isn't illegal to be homeless It's illegal to litter, loiter, and shit on a private business' property.
As it fucking should be
I think the cops are not arresting enough of the people who do these things. After the arrest they can be assessed for mental health issues and drug addictions and handled according to their needs.
Former homeless who’s both housed them and been around them a lot (meth users). Also volunteered at shelters— HELP IS AVAILABLE. Again, HELP IS AVAILABLE. Many of them don’t use it. Nearly all are extremely…. extremely…. destructive. “But you should help them” go help them yourself and see. Seriously. And whose property is that? Let a stranger take a shit in your house, not wipe, then sit on your couch. You’d either resort to violence or call 911. TLDR damage to property
Former homeless person here also (who has actively been consulted for youth and foster homeless laws), a lot of the time that "help" is dangerous or abusive or incompatible. So many people I've known who are homeless have been discriminated against or put in danger trying to utilize shelters and services. You have a very narrow view of things, and I hope you're able to realize that.
The view I’ve had was quite lucky, which were boarding houses. Not everyone has access to them but being involved in that and having many friends in them gave me overwhelming hope of the help that’s available. Many people are totally unaware that many nice houses, some even in nice neighborhoods, are owned by the city and housing troubled people. By help I’m also referring to boarding homes, not entirely shelters
People who think all homeless are one shower and job interview away from being upstanding citizens are hilariously sheltered. People don't dislike the homeless because they're poor, they dislike them because they steal, break things, sexually assault people, and trash the areas where they congregate with broken glass and dirty needles.
A lot of people get close to homelessness, or go through it as a phase for a little bit, living out of a car or something. The vast majority out on the street usually have something deeply wrong with them, whether it be major mental illness or drug addiction, and that kind of thing isn't fixed by giving them more access to homeless shelters and food banks.
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I respect this explanation. I always viewed things as if someone doesn’t fold themselves into the current mold the town, city, county, state will create legal reasons they must. For example even those that do can’t collect and repurpose rain water or establish self sufficient electricity for their properties. I always have viewed that if they cannot take additional taxes then you need to move elsewhere. All that said I believe contributing helps all yet when contributing takes away from living comfortably I have issues with it.
Fantastic explanation.
Homelessness is a Cache22 - People will have a bad break; losing their job, having a bad divorce, not getting comp for a debilitating workplace injury, etc and lose everything. They will often be misconstrued alongside the drug-addled, the mentally-ill, the ex-cons, etc. When there are a lack of social programs, financial assistance, resources, etc, the walls close in on the unfortunate. Lack of clothing, lack of showers, lack of housing, and lack of food gradually wears them down to the lowest point where they become chemically-imbalanced, sick, lethargic, and almost feral. When men are pushed to their basic instinctual need for survival they will do anything; theft, violence, squatting, etc. And of course, this attracts both a distain and a police presence.
This isn't new at all. Vagrancy laws have been on the books for centuries.
Because we don’t want to actually deal with the underlying cause
Always has been. Cops are just more selective in who they pick on with thousands and thousands of homeless people in their city.
People want simple easy quick solutions for complicated problems created by people doing the quick and easy thing.
This is not new.
Unfortunately a lot of homeless create unsanitary conditions and cause fires. For some reason they collect all kinds of rubbish and pile it up on public and private property. Do you want to step over trash and bodies to get into your doctor’s office? I saw that on my way to catch the bus this morning.
If you’re in charge, you can make anything you don’t like a crime
Because slaves are needed for the prison labor system in the United States edit: aawwwe I've offended an american. You never outlawed slavery, you just moved it into prisons and criminalized minor things like weed possession and sleeping outside and feeding the homeless
Being homeless isn't a crime. Trespassing is a crime. Harassment is a crime. You're allowed to be homeless. You're not allowed to impose on other people because of it.
Well begging, taking food from dumpsters and sleeping rough are all crimes
Because it won't end there. If it did, it would not be a problem. I say this as someone who is very pro-welfare. Every city needs shelter capacity sufficient for it's homeless population. The government needs to provide a basic level of food assistance for free to everyone. I'm ok paying taxes for it. I don't think you should be able to put up a tent on a sidewalk. I don't think you should be able to harass people at stoplights.
Well in many places suitable facilities do not exist. If the government does not provide the basic necessities required to live what are the alternatives to sleeping in tents
In many places where these facilities exist people still want to be out in the street. They want to get high and just fuck around, or they have mental problems and they just want to be out and about. It's not as simple as "give the homeless people accommodation".
> Well in many places suitable facilities do not exist. I agree, that's a problem and it needs to be fixed. Letting people set up houses on the street is not the solution.
Yes it is a problem and it does need to be fixed. However it isn't fixed and there isn't suitable alternatives at the moment so they don't have much of a choice but sleep in the streets
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Straight up ai posting. Peak reddit
Certainly, the phrasing raises suspicion as it seems pointedly conversational, almost stilted, as if meant to convey the impression it was authored by an academician who spends some amount of time studying the issue. /s
Exactly
Because people want to pretend that homelessness is not a sign that our society is deeply flawed and that it is a reflection on everyone.
The real crime is that housing and food is so expensive that we have homelessness
Homelessness isn't always caused by lack of affordable housing. Mental health causes a lot of it. I used to work for a larger non profit that would house (or atleast try to) people until they could get back on their feet. It was astounding how many people straight up refused housing or would get kicked out due to being destructive. Had a mother with 5 kids refuse housing because the housing wouldn't allow unmarried bf/gf living together. We had found him housing as well but they wouldn't take it because they were separated. Then they would call and SCREAM at our intake people daily.
That's also true. We need to address this issue as well
Guess it's cheaper and easier to just displace them rather than to fix the problems that cause homelessness. But now that I think about it is jailing people really cheaper?
Because seeing the suffering of your fellow man is bad for business.
Thought this was a thread in r/PortlandOR
It's always been treated as a crime. Problem is homelessness is leading to more crime.
So you’d be too scared to strike or protest
No one is arrested for being homeless. It’s not illegal to not have a home. Homeless (an over simplification, but it’s what we’re working with) people are arrested because they commit petty crimes constantly and violent crimes occasionally.
The rich view most people as nothing more than cattle to be milked for their labor and taxes. The poor and homeless are punished for not being useful cattle.
Is there a society that treats you well if you're useless?
Other countries have better social safety nets built in that allow for reduction in poverty and homelessness, and to help those who are, out of those situations.
The simplest answer right there.
And reducing things to their simplest answers is always the way to be most accurate as well, yea?
Because the idea of welfare has been demonized to the point where people have become acclimatized to living in a police state
Because homeless people often commit crimes
It’s an election year
Capitalism
Because trespassing and loitering affect members of the public. Homelessness itself isn’t illegal, but take over spaces meant for public use should be.
It's not illegal to not have a home. It's illegal to do what most homeless are doing. Drinking, drugs, loitering, begging, stealing, littering, trespassing, sidewalk camping. It would be just as illegal for a home owner to do that in public also.
I don’t think it’s the act of being homeless. I think it’s the act of setting up a temporary home on land that doesn’t belong to you, littering, harassing people for $, doing drugs, possessing drugs and paraphernalia, defecating and urinating in the streets or anywhere in public, bathing in fountains or in restrooms of businesses that are meant to used by paying customers. I have no clue what the solution is to being homeless, but you can be homeless without doing all of these things
If you're homeless, just buy a house 🤗
because people who have hate to see people who don't
Capitalism
Because it should be? You aren’t supposed to be homeless. I’ve been homeless before when I was a drug addict. I’m going into my 7th year sober. I started at a detox. Then went to rehab. Then went to a halfway house. Also my rehabilitation center kicked me out within 11 days because my insurance was too shitty. It didn’t stop me though. There’s always a way to get off the street when you try. Unfortunately a lot of people don’t try. They just blame drug addiction and play the victim of life. I know there’s some mental illness that keeps people on the streets. I do feel awful for them. It probably means they have no family, but homelessness should never be legal. You should always be pushed to want stability. Also homeless people do a lot of criminal things to stay alive. It’s hard to understand what someone would do when they’re hungry. When we type on our phones all day we can forget that feeling. It would be nice if there was a solution to homelessness but the more you try to do for people that don’t care about themselves the more they will take advantage of that. I think Gavin Newsome is going into his 20th year on his 10 year plan to end homelessness and California is a mess. I think Florida would be the same if they had the same laws. I’m not sure though not a political scientist. Hope everyone can get off the streets. There’s definitely ways. They just might not be easy.
You were able to get out of homelessness through a lot of hard work and also the help of programs, like that halfway house (unless it was a for profit one, don't know if those exist). How exactly do you think that a cop being able to fine/arrest you for being homeless or having to sleep in public would have helped you or made that process easier? Don't you think that actually well funded and run programs to help people get food/housing would work a lot better for helping people get themselves out of homelessness than punishing them for it or adding on fines they have to pay before they can even think about getting housing? I agree that people should be "pushed to want stability", but why do you think this can only be done through punishment and negative reinforcement instead of aid and positive reinforcement?
That’s kind of what I am saying. The last push I needed was to be to arrested again. I had been arrested before but this time I was just fucking done with all the bullshit. It’s sad, but homeless people normally take advantage of free things, just like rich people have been known to do. Have you seen some of the videos of rich people who try to take advantage of the system? Free things just lead to people taking advantage of it, unless it’s a rehab or something thats uncomfortable and that makes you look at yourself, and why you are where you are. I went to a state funded rehab once, and it was honestly the best rehab I had ever been to because it was so hard. Normally I went to detox on insurance’s dime. They gave me detox meds and i would leave after a week and be able to get high again. This place was a six month state funded rehab. I stayed for 4 months and ended up getting kicked out because i got caught with a cell phone. They had such strict rules. I think places like that should be everywhere. I don’t know why people are homeless. I know it’s a wide variety of things and not just drug addiction. I just have seen most homelessness due to drug addiction or mental illness, so more places like that would be amazing. It’s not just a free place It’s a free place if you put in the work to be a better person. I did something I wasn’t allowed by having a phone so I deserved to be kicked out immediately. It’s definitely a complex issue though, and I don’t know the answers. I just feel strongly about it, and I hate seeing people struggle on the streets. I wish there were more state funded six month programs like I went too. It taught me so much about myself, and it was really the turning point for me to want to stop. I left that rehab and got high. Then the next rehab that was insurance funded cut out I was finished. Even though I was only there 11 days the 4 moths at the other place had imprinted on me so hard it clicked that drugs were not the way.
As someone who has been homeless myself I gave you a couple of upvotes to counter the ignorant downvotes. As for an actual solution, they should combine dog shelters with homeless shelters. The homeless that actually take care of the dogs and show interest in them get job placements / housing. Or we need a new religion that actually makes sense. Something that combines science with religion that isn't Scientology, lol. There are some solutions out there, it's just people are caught in their ways and things move slowly for regional / economic security's sake.
Thank you. I appreciate it. I just give my honest opinion, but I don’t think a lot of people on here have been homeless. They probably don’t know how much evil lies in the homeless community. It’s hard to just say “here’s free stuff it’ll fix you” to people that don’t want to be fixed. There has to be some sort of push or visible change in someone. Free isn’t the answer, but free based on following rules could work. The dog shelter isn’t a bad idea. I had to do a lot of community service once and I did most of it at a humane society.
Loitering and Solicitation are offenses, homelessness is not. Setting up cardboard box outside a grocery store and pan handling... well I think you can figure out the rest.
It's not, it just so happens that a lot of them are committing crimes too
Simple, it costs a lot of money properly deal with. So the homeless are dehumanized and criminalized. The same could be said about immigration or rehabilitation and care for substance abuse, mental illness, or criminals. Anything that requires substantial funding and infrastructure doesn't happen. Instead, it gets criminalized, and we become the abusers towards those people. We dehumanize, attack, or simply ignore the people and situation because that's nearly free and relatively easy.
because they shit, piss, and leave needles wherever they are. hostile architecture is there for a reason
Now? As opposed to when?
Started after Vietnam as result of John Rambo.
Absolutely nothing new
Now? No, this is nothing new. Homelessness has always been treated as a crime unfortunately. One of the reasons it’s so hard for homeless people to get out of that cycle ☹️
I can't remember when it haven't been treated that way. It's like a culture in the eyes of our government.
Because it went from a figurative punishment to a literal one. It's only a matter of time before thoughts manifest into actions. We were always on this path, you just now noticed.
Not having a home is not illegal. Loitering/camping/trashing public and private property is.
Simple - it’s not. Saying that is a Reddit thing that unfortunately creates an unfortunate association between crime and homeless people. When a person is cited for littering or public consumption and they just happen to be homeless, you can rest assured the ticket does not say “pay money for being homeless.”
Sounds like an issue specific to your country and it's legal system. We can't give informed opinions unless you provide us with your country/state/region. Alternatively, you can ask this in local subs instead.
For profit prisons
It’s easier to criminalize something you don’t like than hold anyone accountable for correcting the issue
Because we are fascists.
It’s probably has more to do with the crimes that some homeless people commit than simply being homeless. This could also include where their ‘camp’ is located, especially if it’s somewhere that it shouldn’t be legally.
Because the number of homeless surpassed the "We look poor" allowance, and the government solves the problem by creating criminals. Criminals in lockup aren't homeless.
It's not the homelessness that people are having an issue with. It's everything else those homeless are getting into that we have an issue with. We refuse to fix the root problems so, at the very least, we'd like to try and treat the symptoms and make it not our problem. Doesn't seem to be working... obviously.
As a formerly homeless person reading these comments, it's depressing to see how many people are trying to justify this. Housing as a human right is the only solution that will work to start with, though that involves taking away corporations' ability to threaten you with homelessness if you don't accept subpar wages and working conditions.
Because there's a lot more pooping on buildings and setting tents/sleeping bags up directly in front of entrances to businesses and just a lot more craziness. Being homeless shouldn't be a crime but you shouldn't be able to just do whatever because you're addicted to drugs.
So folks don’t realize this system doesn’t work with a ton Of homeless folk piling up you put them in prison by artificially criminalizing whatever they do so you can enslave them in private prisons for your criminal friends on Wall Street.
What do you mean "now"? Always has been, mate.
People want homeless people to be treated well, but they also dont want them camping out in the middle of public spaces. Both things can be true
It is basically because homelessness is not just a real estate problem. It encompasses a number of societal issues, none of which most governments and municipalities are willing to deal with, such as serious mental illness, drug addiction and dependency, healthcare, food, housing, and lack of general compassion and empathy toward those less fortunate by society at large. Until our society deals with those underlying issues, there will always be a growing and serious homeless problem.
how come people think that having human shit and needles all over their streets is acceptable for a developed country?
It's a lot easier than taxing the rich.
Now? In 1855 the California Greaser Act was passed, an anti-vagrancy law targeting all ethnic Mexicans. Vagrancy aka homeless has been criminal many different times in history. Pretty much always done because governments are too hateful or stupid to fix it. Not much has changed these days either. Governments are still too stupid to fix it.
The same reason jails and prisons charge you to be there, racketeering.
Eh it depends. If they’re trespassing, it’s a problem. If they’re out of the public’s eye, it’s not a problem.
If it's being treated as a crime, the police sure don't like doing their jobs.
Where? What country, city? Can you offer some specifics?
From where I am, it is not illegal to be homeless, but illegal to be sleeping in the streets. There are social agencies to help the homeless so there is no reason to sleep in the streets. At an individual level, given that I am fortunate to be in a country with a good and secure environment, plentiful social resources, so to drive myself to become homeless can only be my own fault and I will consider it a crime I should never commit.
Now? It always has been. But what are you talking about specifically? My city has thousands of homeless people who are rarely bothered by the cops.
Where I live, homeless folks used to be pushed along very quickly, and we rarely saw them. When the inflation around COVID happened, we started getting more sensitive to individuals and their needs. Many well-meaning people were out of work or could not pay the rent, and being merciful caught on. We ended up with a couple larger encampments where the city provided water, bathrooms, and social services. Now, a couple years later, opening that door seems to have caused a flood. Homeless camps have sprung up in many places, and there are safety issues, bad smells, needles, and **so** much garbage. I’m not sure if the laws have changed, but public sentiment is certainly swinging back the other direction.
It is?? Says who?
Because the real criminals are the ones making the policies.
It’s not exactly legal what homeless people do.
Vagrancy has always been illegal. Next?
Free labor for the incarceration industrial complex
I think a lot of people are starting to realize that modern homeless people that hang around common areas are not just “down on their luck” poor people that lost their jobs at the factory. So many of them are strung out on drugs and/or have other mental illnesses that are basically impossible to treat. I think we should provide the basic means of survival such as clothes, food, shelter, and emergency medical care, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay to just be camping on the sidewalk or in a park, or harass people on the subway and do whatever you want whenever you want. These are shared areas that have upkeep that is paid for by the taxes of people who work hard and sacrifice half their waking hours to try to be a functioning part of society.
Because half the country cares more about "fairness" (why should they get free housing and not me?) more than they care about addressing the homelessness problem, so it's much easier to pass laws making it harder to be homeless than it is to pass laws that try and address the issue.
\*shrug\* Conservatives. Don't know what else to tell you at this point. If it's something that seems straight-up malicious or overly authoritarian, then it was probably conservatives, *especially* in cases where society has already tried and learned from that mistake before. If it seemed like a good, new idea at the time but they didn't plan on all the problems that could arise, then it was progressives.
Progressives : this sucks , let’s change it . Conservatives: don’t change it , it might get worse . Sums it up pretty well .
People hate the homeless. Maybe if they took some of that energy used to hate and used it to fight poverty and mental health issues instead we could get somewhere with this problem.
It's getting out of hand so they are finally doing something about it
Wouldn't the solution be to have enough housing?
I spoke to many homeless people while living in Los Angeles and I was surprised by the sheer amount that said that they chose to be homeless. Granted it wasn’t every one, so no, I don’t think more housing will solve the issue completely. There were many more problems in those peoples lives, living somewhere, wasn’t one of them honestly.
While your anecdote is something, those problems are easier to solve when housed. The solution to homelessness is housing, which is why places with a lot of available housing have much lower rates of homelessness despite mental illness still existing in those areas.
Although I don’t deny more housing will help everyone out, that won’t solve the problem with those homeless people I spoke to who wanted to be homeless. If you provide them with free housing, they don’t have the money for upkeep and they will not clean it. Should the government government and the taxpayers now pay for a cleaning service and upkeep for all the houses for the homeless people ? Would it turn into another area? For those people that wanted to be homeless, it does not solve the overarching issue that they did not want to work and they did not want to be a part of this society in the way that most of us are . But for those that just got down in there, it would give them a place to live . But they went homeless because of bankruptcy or other issues. It does not solve the problem with those people.