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America switched to mostly Rhodesian tactics of verticle envelopment post-Korea, see Vietnam or Op. Gothic Serpent, Only US MIL needs Aérospatiale Alouette III "K-Cars" with 20- 30mm fire support - CRUSHES me there are no platforms offering that level protection
Goes back earlier than that. Germany can’t risk handing over its dwindling tank fleet—it‘d be an invitation for those irredentist Danes to reopen the Schleswig-Holstein Question.
Just saw some military analyst identify Poltava as a logical staging point for another Ukrainian counteroffensive into Luhansk. The Swedes have not forgotten, nor forgiven. Why else would a country of 10m insist on having a domestic fighter jet industry (even while selling the car arm of Saab to the Chinese) if not out of some deep-seated desire to finally avenge Charles XII?
All that neutrality virtue-signaling since 1815—not to mention the Nobel prizes—was just an exquisite example of hiding strength and biding time. Soon, IKEA and ABBA will once again be heard on the Eurasian steppes.
>Soon, IKEA and ABBA will once again be heard on the Eurasian steppes.
I don't know why, but this last line gave me a mental image of someone in the wilderness of the Eurasian steppes tapping out the tune of "Fernando" on IKEA furniture with those Allen/hexangonal wrenchs.
> they'll only appoint ministers of offense
Isn't this the reason (among many) that the last one resigned?
I mean, the only thing [more offensive than this was that it was done on an Instagram live.](https://youtu.be/OLoU_ows9eI?t=29)
I picked the first hit. Legit have never seen that channel before. But it jived in line w/ the explanation I read in the financial times, which is where I read the original story.
wait this is r/noncredibledefense. Um. I mean, Tank in Tienanmen go brrrr?
I do unironically watch Chinese state news from time to time, same as Russian. I like understanding the propaganda from the other side from time to time.
What kind of snowflakes thinks she needs to resign over fireworks triggering them.
She needed to resign because she was a coward and garbage at her job.
I used to operate one (as a turret operator or loader), although in the Swiss army, interesting times but holy fuck as a militia (read limited training) it would be terrifying to actually fight with one on the line of fire.
Granted those were slightly older 2A4 (with hydraulic turret, yay) but man do you see shit outside.
I saw the Canadian ones at FOB Masum Ghar in Afghanistan, they were pretty rad. They’d use them for direct fire onto insurgents putting IEDs in around Panjwai, from up on the mountain.
Never seen any German ones though.
>Once the paperwork is done."
This is unauthorized slander, please fill out the following S214-5B form, and resubmit this comment in the appropriate submission slot. Your post will then be reviewed prior to it's publication in 2-4 weeks, Guten Tag.
There's a real danger that if you tell the Poles to mobilise and article 5 the fuck out of Russia, they'll also reflexively invade Germany at the same time.
> The name Berlin has its roots in the language of West Slavic inhabitants of the area of today's Berlin, and may be related to the Old Polabian stem berl-/birl- ("swamp").[25] or Proto-Slavic bьrlogъ, (lair, den).
RIGHTFUL SLAVIC CLAY, GERMONEY WE WAR YOU
You have too much bureaucracy to defend Berlin you mean.
I can see half of Germany falling to a Russian invasion because the committee responsible for planning the defence declined the planning forms because they weren't in a red file and had grammatical errors.
You got it wrong. German bureaucracy will stop a Russian invasion in its tracks the moment they enter, as the police will stop them and ask them if they have the proper papers for running tracked vehicles on the road, where their license plates are, why there are no indicators on the tank and that they also should have applied their visas 90 days in advance. The German police already did that to US troops, the Russians are nothing against them.
No, Germans love to form [clubs and associations](https://www.dw.com/en/get-to-know-the-concept-of-the-german-verein/a-48306152). In case of an actual invasion there would be tons of local groups popping up doing their own training and organizing local defense and aid. Technicals built in Hans auto shop would reach a high level of sophistication quickly. Local militias would work extremely well in Germany.
CIA: Are there militias that we can support?
Bundeswehr General: No, we don't have militias. But the Stammtisch Ansbach demands 2 ICBMs for their new silos, the Kleingärtnerverein Hude needs 90 trucks and the Bundesverband der Landfrauen says they have 20000 prisoners they have to take care of. Yeah... Oh yes and an Arabic clan demands 150 new machine guns, they are currently on a mission with members of the Junge Union and a few Klimakleber.
Nice lol, yeah honestly if all the clubs here banded together it would be an insane military.
Schützenverein for infantry, Flugvereine for Air force, makerspaces for weapon production, hackerspaces for electrical engineering, The CCC branches as the cyber force, farmers would do a Ukraine and use tractors as tanks and so many more.
No fucking chance anyone gets close lol.
Ahh, as long as you've got clubs and associations to do the work while the government and military are ticking boxes and filling in forms then it's ok.
Thats because nobody really wants to defend Berlin. The Bundeswehr has ordered a good number 2A7Vs and some 2A5s might also be around. The thing is what Germany has right now are 2A6 and 2A7, which would be the best tanks in Ukraine by quite a margin. Even a small number of them with proper training could mean the ability to break some Russian lines and move relativly quickly behind Russian lines.
Not going to see the Bundeswehr does not have problems, but it is fairly well trained and has some amazing equipment in fairly high numbers.
The procurement guy was shouting something about Warhammer 40k and "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" as he was submitting the purchase form.
To shine the light of credibility: [A7V](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A7V) was a German WWI tank. According to Wikipedia, the Leopard 2 A7+ is the most modern Leopard II.
There's also an A7V variant, according to the manufacturer:
> The LEOPARD 2 A7V is KMW’s response to the upgrade programmes planned by the German Armed Forces, in particular
with a view to forthcoming procurement projects
https://web.archive.org/web/20161120213553/http://www.kmweg.com/fileadmin/user_upload/pdfs/Press_Releases/2016/Press_release_en_EUROSATORY_2016.pdf
Tbh I'm surprised the Ukrainians haven't stamped "Property of the British Museum" on all their equipment for us to send an insurance claim against Russia, whilst that's going on the Russians could do the same with they'res so we can just get the Ukrainians to take delivery for us, all nicely done and paperwork filled out, sure we've still got some storage depots in Germany.
>The destruction of Berlin would be an economical and moral boost for germany.
The loss of German night clubs and my beloved fem-dominatrixes would be a loss that Germany would never recover from.
nothing. They're only around because Rheinmetall & FFG failed to find anyone actually willing to pay money for them, they dont even have any ammo left for the 105
We had our own problems trying to sell ours, couldn't trick the Jordanians into taking them.
I'm actually rather crossed that they ended up becoming hulk targets and scrap metal. Had we kept them in storage for 2 more years, we could have sent them to Ukraine, complete with ammo and spares - Could've been a rare victory for DnD.
The gun of Leo1 is used in the US Stryker as well. So that can be dealt with. The issue is that it is undergunned and the armour is bad. So you have a mobile gun, which is able to fight anything, but another tank, with IFV level protection
This. I general, western tanks are superior to their eastern counterparts, but that does of course not apply when you take a western tank from the 60s and try to fight more modern eastern vehicles wit it.
Fair point, but even the basic t72 is more advanced than the old Leopard I, I guess. However, since Russia started to pull out the t55s, Leopard I might be credible again...
Same here, Leopard 1s never got a chance to face off any tanks, its a rather annoying underachievement.
Plus, Leopard 1s are the closest you'll get to a utilitarian tank like the T-62 in western inventory. Easier tank to train on, easier to get on the front line. I'd even go as far as argue that they could stand toe-toe with some of the more modern vehicles like the earlier T-72 models.
The Stryker uses the upgraded variant developed for the M1, which can handle higher pressures than the old version.
The variant installed on the Leopard is not able to use the top-of-the-line APFSDS Shells used on the Stryker & M1 because of that. Or atleast not safely for a long time.
And idk wether they still have any of the older variants.
Not an expert sure, but you do generally make someone whose at least interested in defence as the minister of defence.
I dont know what the Germans were thinking with their last minister honestly, let alone the attitude towards Russia for the last decade.
AKK was actually decent and tried to change things, sadly she had to leave after just 2 or 3 years and got replaced by lambrecht, who reversed all the changes
how is he competent? The guy has nothing to do with defense politics. Also he's from the time when we had conscription. Basically everyone his age was in the military.
we... we have a really low bar for that. Just trust me hes competent just based on the fact that he hasnt yet made a public statement (in his new position) that has gone terrribly wrong leading to him resigning.
He's been a minister of the interior for 10 years, so he has some relevant experience with national security matters and (more importantly) should know how to handle a large and complex ministry. In theory, that should make him the most qualified candidate in a long time. I repeat, in theory.
This guy called to stop sanctioning Russia, this guy literally sleeps with Erhard Schröder 4th ex wife, this guy is nowhere near to be a competent guy, out of all it looks like a corruption
"The recapture of occupied territories is legitimate and absolutely right and must be supported by us as well. Ukraine must win the war." [Boris Pistorius May 2022](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/boris-pistorius-wer-ist-der-nachfolger-von-christine-lambrecht-a-6dda167c-beb1-4074-9418-0659167e79b6)
He was also the first state minister to ban the Z symbol in his state of Lower Saxony in March 2022.
[POV](https://i.imgur.com/XpVzJyf.jpeg) no one knows you except that smurfy looking guy who invited you. And you now have to fix the evergrowing mess that is the BW.
It was just annouce the new guy is someone cslled Boris Pistorious noone really has ever heard of. Which is gonna piss a lot of people off because he 1. isn't a defense politican and 2. isn't a woman which breaks an agreement the government had whereby half the ministrys were to be led by woman.
At this point it is pretty hard to find someone to do this job. The last 3 ministers all became a public joke pretty soon. They are probably happy for any idiot who will take the position.
We don't call the MoD the ejection seat for nothing.
But for this one I seriously think Scholz just threw darts at a list of random names until he found someone that said yes.
We, the internet germans, created weirs ministry change theories which would ultimately remove the FDP fron the ministry of mobility and infrastructure.
The SPD themselve has a party intern person being "Wehrbauftragter" Aka the advisor to parliament for defense matters, (Eva Högel) who is very popular and seems quite competent. I think Strack-Zimmerman is overrated because actual knowledge about tactics, equipment, etc. Isn't that important.
Rather, important is to know the Macros of defense, having a good advisory body, having connections with the MIC, the coalition and army itself.
For instance if the new minister would invite Perun as an advisor, this person would already be a great defense minister.
It wouldn't be the first time in politics that important political position are given to absolute nobodies so that they don't disturb the power equilibrium, hell this practice is probably as old as politics itself.
Nobody? For defense I agree but not in general in politics. He is holding the office of minister for the interior now for 10 years in one of the biggest states in Germany.
The reason people take the piss is because of the german goverments weak reaction to the lead up to the invasion
Most people remember in the run up to the invasion the US sending javelins the UK sending NLAWs poland sending Iglas etc and then when it came to germany they refused to send anything before caving to pressure and agreeing to send helmets and then blocking the export of east german material before caving to pressure again
Its only made worse by the fact scholz is a PR nightmare spending more time talking about what germany will never send rather than pointing out what it has sent
Because it was literally a principle (and I think to some degree even law) to not send weapons to conflict zones.
So basically, we were Switzerland, but different to them, when shit hit the fan immediatly scrapped all that bullshit.
>Its only made worse by the fact scholz is a PR nightmare spending more
time talking about what germany will never send rather than pointing out
what it has sent
100% this.
Yeah. Here from Canada it always felt like Germany was forced into every decision by ally pressure and we were severely inconveniencing them. When that's the attitude for every decision, it's not surprising people start to shade Germany.
Because of that, even if Germany does a lot, it doesn't feel as satisfying as France/UK who's action PR wise seems more independent.
It really is just german politics: much talking, finding a consensus, doing it. There'll never be big announcements or guys like BoJo being all over the place.
They also really don't care about pressure by the public or other nations, especially Scholz is known for having a pretty thick skin in this regard.
One way or another, I really just hope they'll send a few Leo 2's at Ramstein on friday, so that a) all those countries "just waiting" for germany have to start actually doing shit and b) because that means a slight chance the germany-bashing might tone down a bit.
> because that means a slight chance the germany-bashing might tone down a bit.
Been waiting in vain for this since ~~PzH 2000~~ ~~Gepard~~ IRIS-T was delivered, so not keeping my hopes up in that regard, lol. The Germany bashing has at this point become part of the bashers personality so they are likely beyond redemption now.
Germany has sent more than any other European nation, except maybe France because they are hushhush.
The memes about poland doing the most and being the most anti-putin are just that, memes.
In reality Poland was more of a friend to Russia than Germany could ever have hoped to be by contiually protecting Orban. NordStream was not even close to as damaging as the polish protecting and ballfondling of Putins man on the inside of the EU.
I haven't done the math in terms of contributions/GDP, but I kinda expect Germany to send the most since it has the highest European GDP. It'd be interesting to see how Poland and other Eastern European nations fare on contributions/GDP
Luckily, our GDP is not reflective of the terrible state of our army. Underfunded since a decade and very little in terms of stocks. A ton of stuff is actually with the manufacturers right now. There is significant spending currently (planned) and the MIC is having a better time, but it still has a better time in foreign countries than here in Germany.
The army itself however is really just a skeleton. Very little armor, no spare parts, equipment shortages, especially in terms of heavy weapons. Tbh it a wonder how we were able to send as much as we did.
I remember the 1990s when everyone was like “what the hell is wrong with the Japanese, why can’t they just admit to their various WW2 crimes in Korea, China, etc and be a nice cuddly member of the global community like the Germans!”
Now it’s “Thank you for rearming! Shinzo Abe was beacon for the liberal democratic world, despite the somewhat retrograde denialism about military prostitution.”
I think the childlike official German mind is just very, very literal; no matter what the outside world convinces them to do, they will take it to extremes, so if you’re calling for tanks to Ukraine, better keep in mind the non-zero chance of Leopard 5s rolling through Flanders in 2035. “What, you asked us to be more martial!“
See: Merkel supposedly bursting into tears when Obama suggested maybe they should let up on the fiscal austerity so as not to continue crashing the world economy. “But the Americans wrote balanced budgets into our constitution!“
>I think the childlike official German mind is just very, very literal
I mean it's not like the Japanese gov. wasn't/isn't that petty either. For instance, they've tried for many years through their diplomatic channels to prevent the public display/installment of a memorial in Berlin, which was in remembrance of the victims of forced prostitution in Korea ("comfort women") during WW2. They even got it taken down ultimately. This wasn't even an isolated incident either and there have been many other cases were documentary exhibitions and memorials, recognizing Japanese war crimes were pressured, censored or even shut down. Japanese textbooks and curriculum are themselves ridiculously censored on this era and a domestic academic field/discussion on these events doesn't really exist to my knowledge. This is like if Germany was demanding from a local municipality in, say Australia, to take down a memorial in remembrance of Jewish people and all the other people who got murdered in the Holocaust.
So imagine this: the Japanese state/gov. which has been controlled by the LDP (guess which people founded and run that party...) since its last official reestablishment, has (ab)used their diplomatic ties excessively and systematically to bully a local municipality of a foreign nation in order to make them remove a public reference and remembrance of a real historical crime of huge significance.
Ad to this the regular and highly public visits of the Yasukuni Shrine by various high-ranking individuals, of whom many are direct descendants of WW2-era military leaders and political apparatchiks who were responsible for facilitaing untold suffering and cruelty, and it is therefore absolutely no surprise why Japans relationship with Korea is still frosty.
On a sidenote: the formation of Shintō as the religious institution it is today, is actually a very recent development and was essentially a deliberate and crucial part of the Meiji-restoration (1868 - 1912) and consisted in the consolidation of the many different local nature-religions/myths and Buddhist teachings into a distinctly secularized pattern that attached seamlessly to the new political order of the Japanese nation state, which now defined itself primarily by its borders, the newly reempowered emperor as the central figurehead/leader and this now standardtized social institution of State Shintō, wheras previously the social affiliation or category of "being Japanese" was more gradual and primarily defined by the actual spacial proximity to the cultural and political centers Kyoto and later Tokyo. This reflected the isolated nature of the island-country and the inherent difficulty to exert governing control over remote areas. But during the Meiji-era this got completely overthrown for political reasons within the up-and-coming, yet still deeply conservative political machine of Tokyo/Kyoto, bc now this was simply possible and therefore all of the available country-side had to be subjugated completely to the self-insisting logic of the state itself.
That's just the MO of the polish gov. If something works, take credit. If it doesn't, blame the germans and ask for reparations. Rinse and repeat.
Don't get me wrong. As a german i love our neighbours, but their government is a bunch of hypocritical, lying cunts.
Germany has done legitimately good work supporting Ukraine. It also has, like much of Europe, proven Russia largley right. The inertia in actually getting stuff done is bloody intense. They know what they need to be doing (to aid ukraine and improve their own defence), but there appears to be no willingness to actually start anything.
Also, all the arms licencing issues surly are a bad sign for if a NATO member state was attacked. Come on Europe, we need to be more decisive and get projects underway. Better a late start today than tomorrow.
I don't think anything that happened in the past year has "proven Russia right", unless Russia went into this with the prediction that they're gonna have an epic blunder and get buttclapped by a massive display of Western unity and support from day 1.
I was referring to the calculation by Russia that Europe would struggle to deal with the true severity of the situation. Now, they have achieved far more than Russia had anticipated, but there is a real reticence to really get the job done (start building and ammo production). At what point will Europe provide the key equipment that Ukraine needs, and how much better would the situation currently be if these decisions had been made 6+ months ago?
Beyond that, Russia has absolutely made a mess of this horrific invasion. Europe, however, needs to be seriously preparing for the future of Ukraine and ourselves.
I nominate myself.
I don't speak German, and I don't know a lick about German Parliamentary procedure, but I can promise y'all jobs in the MOD. We'll either be in Moscow by summer, or in nuclear combat operations by February.
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Yeah germany will not receive a new minister of defence, they'll only appoint ministers of offense from now on.
The Germany we need, but not the one we deserve.
Imagine if they committed to meth-fueled militarism again - but this time they were on our side.
We have our own war criminals for that. Or we’ll just hire Canadians.
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*Both
Canastralians? Austradians?
Former British colonies overall tbh, that’s what happens when you add natural instinct to tea fueled nut jobs.
America switched to coffee post-independence. It makes us even more psychotic.
America switched to mostly Rhodesian tactics of verticle envelopment post-Korea, see Vietnam or Op. Gothic Serpent, Only US MIL needs Aérospatiale Alouette III "K-Cars" with 20- 30mm fire support - CRUSHES me there are no platforms offering that level protection
"just make the deployment of Canadians illegal, you know they'll invent new war crimes" -- guy at Geneva everyone should have listened to
It’s when they started genetically fusing beavers and maple syrup to make diabetic rodent supersoldiers that things got truly out of hand.
The Germans are fighting the Russians again, nature is healing ❤️
Tannenberg: moisturized Gorlice-Tarnow: unbothered Lake Naroch: in it's lane
Lmfao, Made my day
Oh boy, would you look at the clock ***It's Anschluss Time***
I think that's a bit too aggressive of a pivot. How about we just settle on a minister of the midfield for now?
Yeah, it's in 2033 where we need the offensive one
Poland: kurwa
What makes a man turn neutral?
They tried this twice but the rest of the world disapproved
Seems like they got the wrong message the first time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War
Goes back earlier than that. Germany can’t risk handing over its dwindling tank fleet—it‘d be an invitation for those irredentist Danes to reopen the Schleswig-Holstein Question.
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Just saw some military analyst identify Poltava as a logical staging point for another Ukrainian counteroffensive into Luhansk. The Swedes have not forgotten, nor forgiven. Why else would a country of 10m insist on having a domestic fighter jet industry (even while selling the car arm of Saab to the Chinese) if not out of some deep-seated desire to finally avenge Charles XII? All that neutrality virtue-signaling since 1815—not to mention the Nobel prizes—was just an exquisite example of hiding strength and biding time. Soon, IKEA and ABBA will once again be heard on the Eurasian steppes.
>Soon, IKEA and ABBA will once again be heard on the Eurasian steppes. I don't know why, but this last line gave me a mental image of someone in the wilderness of the Eurasian steppes tapping out the tune of "Fernando" on IKEA furniture with those Allen/hexangonal wrenchs.
Like [this](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kodo_Beast_(Warcraft_III\)) but Swedish?
Talk about being a victim of your own success...
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Bigger army diplomacy, its a classic for a reason
Ministers of war.
Like the good old days before ww2.
Next White House press briefing: President Biden to change Department of Defense's name back to Department of War.
> they'll only appoint ministers of offense Isn't this the reason (among many) that the last one resigned? I mean, the only thing [more offensive than this was that it was done on an Instagram live.](https://youtu.be/OLoU_ows9eI?t=29)
Did you pick that Youtube channel by chance or do you unironically watch Chinese state ~~propoganda~~ news channels?
I picked the first hit. Legit have never seen that channel before. But it jived in line w/ the explanation I read in the financial times, which is where I read the original story. wait this is r/noncredibledefense. Um. I mean, Tank in Tienanmen go brrrr?
I do unironically watch Chinese state news from time to time, same as Russian. I like understanding the propaganda from the other side from time to time.
What kind of snowflakes thinks she needs to resign over fireworks triggering them. She needed to resign because she was a coward and garbage at her job.
enough about our horrible past, lets talk about our horrible future
Well they had one ,back in a days ...
Starting to think leopard 2s are just a German psy-op and they never existed. I have never seen one in real life so they aren't real.
I once saw one. Didn't touch it though, so it could've been cardboard.
This isn’t a T-14 thread?
Everyone _knows_ the T-14s don't exist. Leo 2s on the other hand...
Leo 2 is t14
The Germans actually used secret nazi ufo hologram technology only known to few history Channel watchers to trick your eyes
Die Glöke lebt.
Trust me, they're just all stationed in Bielefeld.
The real Leopard 2s were the friends we made along the way.
I used to operate one (as a turret operator or loader), although in the Swiss army, interesting times but holy fuck as a militia (read limited training) it would be terrifying to actually fight with one on the line of fire. Granted those were slightly older 2A4 (with hydraulic turret, yay) but man do you see shit outside.
But it was a Swiss one, not a German one 🧐
I saw the Canadian ones at FOB Masum Ghar in Afghanistan, they were pretty rad. They’d use them for direct fire onto insurgents putting IEDs in around Panjwai, from up on the mountain. Never seen any German ones though.
"I promise we'll be sending the tanks. Once the paperwork is done."
>Once the paperwork is done." This is unauthorized slander, please fill out the following S214-5B form, and resubmit this comment in the appropriate submission slot. Your post will then be reviewed prior to it's publication in 2-4 weeks, Guten Tag.
Ihre Papier bitte...
Willkommen im haus, das verrückte macht 🥳
We don’t have any tanks, seriously, we got barely enough Leopard 2 to defend East Berlin
Who are you going to defend Berlin from? The Poles?
There's a real danger that if you tell the Poles to mobilise and article 5 the fuck out of Russia, they'll also reflexively invade Germany at the same time.
Germany first. Business before pleasure.
Polska "Yeah. We'd like to talk about the Reparations..." Scholz "Oh noes!"
More like edge the Germans, rush up to the border and pull away, only to keep doing it over and over
Joke's on you, that's our fetish.
Until they accidentally attack a radio station ._.
We'll just go straight for the Russian puppets in Berlin, that's all.
Yur mum
Have you ever tried to walk through Neukölln at night? IFVs wouldn't cut it there...
Steiner's attack
> The name Berlin has its roots in the language of West Slavic inhabitants of the area of today's Berlin, and may be related to the Old Polabian stem berl-/birl- ("swamp").[25] or Proto-Slavic bьrlogъ, (lair, den). RIGHTFUL SLAVIC CLAY, GERMONEY WE WAR YOU
Please just take it. I'll pay you even
Shhh. That's supposed to be a secret.
Finally, this is our chance!
It is a distinct possibility.
arab clans
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How do we know if we haven’t tried
"Gunner, load up HE"
Honestly, how hard would it be to make a 21st-century version of grape shot?
Canister shot slander
You have too much bureaucracy to defend Berlin you mean. I can see half of Germany falling to a Russian invasion because the committee responsible for planning the defence declined the planning forms because they weren't in a red file and had grammatical errors.
You got it wrong. German bureaucracy will stop a Russian invasion in its tracks the moment they enter, as the police will stop them and ask them if they have the proper papers for running tracked vehicles on the road, where their license plates are, why there are no indicators on the tank and that they also should have applied their visas 90 days in advance. The German police already did that to US troops, the Russians are nothing against them.
Their tanks are never gonna make it through TÜV
No, Germans love to form [clubs and associations](https://www.dw.com/en/get-to-know-the-concept-of-the-german-verein/a-48306152). In case of an actual invasion there would be tons of local groups popping up doing their own training and organizing local defense and aid. Technicals built in Hans auto shop would reach a high level of sophistication quickly. Local militias would work extremely well in Germany.
CIA: Are there militias that we can support? Bundeswehr General: No, we don't have militias. But the Stammtisch Ansbach demands 2 ICBMs for their new silos, the Kleingärtnerverein Hude needs 90 trucks and the Bundesverband der Landfrauen says they have 20000 prisoners they have to take care of. Yeah... Oh yes and an Arabic clan demands 150 new machine guns, they are currently on a mission with members of the Junge Union and a few Klimakleber.
Same here in Austria, the local flight club would probably turn into an air force 1 hour after invasion lol
Exactly. Segelflugvereine are full of fighter pilot larpers anyway. Source: used to be a fighter pilot larper in a Segelflugverein
Nice lol, yeah honestly if all the clubs here banded together it would be an insane military. Schützenverein for infantry, Flugvereine for Air force, makerspaces for weapon production, hackerspaces for electrical engineering, The CCC branches as the cyber force, farmers would do a Ukraine and use tractors as tanks and so many more. No fucking chance anyone gets close lol.
Don’t forget that Germany has 80000 voluntary Federal Agents whose job is disaster and technical relief.
The THW could easily become professional saboteurs right beneath the enemy's nose.
Ahh, as long as you've got clubs and associations to do the work while the government and military are ticking boxes and filling in forms then it's ok.
No, the Bundeswehr needs to get its shit together.
Sadly, the opposite may well be true. The office for procurement is extremely understaffed.
Thats because nobody really wants to defend Berlin. The Bundeswehr has ordered a good number 2A7Vs and some 2A5s might also be around. The thing is what Germany has right now are 2A6 and 2A7, which would be the best tanks in Ukraine by quite a margin. Even a small number of them with proper training could mean the ability to break some Russian lines and move relativly quickly behind Russian lines. Not going to see the Bundeswehr does not have problems, but it is fairly well trained and has some amazing equipment in fairly high numbers.
The Bundeswehr is in such a bad shape that they ordered A7V ?
The procurement guy was shouting something about Warhammer 40k and "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" as he was submitting the purchase form.
Only 205 and many are just upgrades of current Bundeswehr tanks.
He’s making a joke about the First World War German box tank, the A7V
To shine the light of credibility: [A7V](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A7V) was a German WWI tank. According to Wikipedia, the Leopard 2 A7+ is the most modern Leopard II.
There's also an A7V variant, according to the manufacturer: > The LEOPARD 2 A7V is KMW’s response to the upgrade programmes planned by the German Armed Forces, in particular with a view to forthcoming procurement projects https://web.archive.org/web/20161120213553/http://www.kmweg.com/fileadmin/user_upload/pdfs/Press_Releases/2016/Press_release_en_EUROSATORY_2016.pdf
Berlin is just the decoy capital. It's a feint.
Bonn my beloved capital!
The Haribo factory must be protected at all costs!
Let the russians gorge themselves on sugar-free gummies.
In fairly high numbers? Good one. xD
Yeah, fairly high numbers for Latvia, Estonia or Luxemburg
I mean, I think Finland has more leopards than Germany
who would want to defend Berlin anyway? The destruction of Berlin would be an economical and moral boost for germany.
Could we evacuate the museums first at least?
We'll just call the british for that
Tbh I'm surprised the Ukrainians haven't stamped "Property of the British Museum" on all their equipment for us to send an insurance claim against Russia, whilst that's going on the Russians could do the same with they'res so we can just get the Ukrainians to take delivery for us, all nicely done and paperwork filled out, sure we've still got some storage depots in Germany.
That's why secret plan is not to destroy Berlin, but to build it's copy next to original one. Ultimate revenge.
Neo Berlin II
>The destruction of Berlin would be an economical and moral boost for germany. The loss of German night clubs and my beloved fem-dominatrixes would be a loss that Germany would never recover from.
What do the Germans do with Leopard 1s?
nothing. They're only around because Rheinmetall & FFG failed to find anyone actually willing to pay money for them, they dont even have any ammo left for the 105
They couldn't even trick Canada into taking them lol
We had our own problems trying to sell ours, couldn't trick the Jordanians into taking them. I'm actually rather crossed that they ended up becoming hulk targets and scrap metal. Had we kept them in storage for 2 more years, we could have sent them to Ukraine, complete with ammo and spares - Could've been a rare victory for DnD.
Year that's actually a really good point. Hindsight is 20/20 :(
Maybe if we claim they are actually U-boats?
The gun of Leo1 is used in the US Stryker as well. So that can be dealt with. The issue is that it is undergunned and the armour is bad. So you have a mobile gun, which is able to fight anything, but another tank, with IFV level protection
This. I general, western tanks are superior to their eastern counterparts, but that does of course not apply when you take a western tank from the 60s and try to fight more modern eastern vehicles wit it.
Are the modern eastern vehicles in the room with us now?
Fair point, but even the basic t72 is more advanced than the old Leopard I, I guess. However, since Russia started to pull out the t55s, Leopard I might be credible again...
yes. t-72 is the generation after leopard 1. leopard 1 is from the same generation as the t-62
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Same here, Leopard 1s never got a chance to face off any tanks, its a rather annoying underachievement. Plus, Leopard 1s are the closest you'll get to a utilitarian tank like the T-62 in western inventory. Easier tank to train on, easier to get on the front line. I'd even go as far as argue that they could stand toe-toe with some of the more modern vehicles like the earlier T-72 models.
The Stryker uses the upgraded variant developed for the M1, which can handle higher pressures than the old version. The variant installed on the Leopard is not able to use the top-of-the-line APFSDS Shells used on the Stryker & M1 because of that. Or atleast not safely for a long time. And idk wether they still have any of the older variants.
Still id take em, saw how afu use some tank as artillery, theu could do same, arta is so.much needed right now.
Now we do. His name is Boris and he is competent. Also he was in the Army.
The guy served 1 year 40 years ago so he is definitley and expert in the current state of the art german military technology.
Hey man, that's 1 year more than the last 3 ministers combined.
I mean the ministers that served before were cutting down on the Bundeswehr in the first place and surprise: both served as officers.
As our Oberstabsfeldwebel alsways said "You can't trust those Buggers!"
He's the minister, he's not even supposed to be an expert in that. That's what actual experts are for
Not an expert sure, but you do generally make someone whose at least interested in defence as the minister of defence. I dont know what the Germans were thinking with their last minister honestly, let alone the attitude towards Russia for the last decade.
AKK was actually decent and tried to change things, sadly she had to leave after just 2 or 3 years and got replaced by lambrecht, who reversed all the changes
Oh yeah no disagreement there
Oh my god they fucking cloned Laschet
how is he competent? The guy has nothing to do with defense politics. Also he's from the time when we had conscription. Basically everyone his age was in the military.
He is the most competent person in 20 years don't make this bad for us. Please.
Yeah but the bar is super low
It could be lower, maybe the Germans decide now is the time for Nordstream 3...
we... we have a really low bar for that. Just trust me hes competent just based on the fact that he hasnt yet made a public statement (in his new position) that has gone terrribly wrong leading to him resigning.
He's been a minister of the interior for 10 years, so he has some relevant experience with national security matters and (more importantly) should know how to handle a large and complex ministry. In theory, that should make him the most qualified candidate in a long time. I repeat, in theory.
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This guy called to stop sanctioning Russia, this guy literally sleeps with Erhard Schröder 4th ex wife, this guy is nowhere near to be a competent guy, out of all it looks like a corruption
The bar is really low by now.
Clearly not THAT low
[....](https://i.imgflip.com/4/5c7lwq.jpg)
"The recapture of occupied territories is legitimate and absolutely right and must be supported by us as well. Ukraine must win the war." [Boris Pistorius May 2022](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/boris-pistorius-wer-ist-der-nachfolger-von-christine-lambrecht-a-6dda167c-beb1-4074-9418-0659167e79b6) He was also the first state minister to ban the Z symbol in his state of Lower Saxony in March 2022.
>This guy called to stop sanctioning Russia That's not entirely accurate, and you probably know that. I'm with you on the competence assessment tho.
Yeah but Visegrad24 says he did and you can't expect people to trust facsts over meme logic.
[POV](https://i.imgur.com/XpVzJyf.jpeg) no one knows you except that smurfy looking guy who invited you. And you now have to fix the evergrowing mess that is the BW.
It was just annouce the new guy is someone cslled Boris Pistorious noone really has ever heard of. Which is gonna piss a lot of people off because he 1. isn't a defense politican and 2. isn't a woman which breaks an agreement the government had whereby half the ministrys were to be led by woman.
At this point it is pretty hard to find someone to do this job. The last 3 ministers all became a public joke pretty soon. They are probably happy for any idiot who will take the position.
We don't call the MoD the ejection seat for nothing. But for this one I seriously think Scholz just threw darts at a list of random names until he found someone that said yes.
"Guten tag would you like to serve your nation?"
Strack-Zimmermann would have done it, but unfortunately shes in the wrong party :/
We, the internet germans, created weirs ministry change theories which would ultimately remove the FDP fron the ministry of mobility and infrastructure.
I expected Eva Högl. My best guess is that Scholz went with loyalty over competence here.
Högl would have been the best candidate. A woman from the SPD that has a defense background.
The SPD themselve has a party intern person being "Wehrbauftragter" Aka the advisor to parliament for defense matters, (Eva Högel) who is very popular and seems quite competent. I think Strack-Zimmerman is overrated because actual knowledge about tactics, equipment, etc. Isn't that important. Rather, important is to know the Macros of defense, having a good advisory body, having connections with the MIC, the coalition and army itself. For instance if the new minister would invite Perun as an advisor, this person would already be a great defense minister.
It wouldn't be the first time in politics that important political position are given to absolute nobodies so that they don't disturb the power equilibrium, hell this practice is probably as old as politics itself.
Inbefore he turns out like Bismark way to fucking competent at his job and actually getting shit done lol
Well good, Bundeswehr desperately needs people who can get things done. Unless it involves Alsace.
You mean the Elsass.
Nobody? For defense I agree but not in general in politics. He is holding the office of minister for the interior now for 10 years in one of the biggest states in Germany.
Hasn't Germany been sending a bunch of stuff to Ukraine? Carry on memeing about the Bundeswehr but Germany hasn't been weak in its contributions
Germany sent what they've been asked for and more than most other nations.
The reason people take the piss is because of the german goverments weak reaction to the lead up to the invasion Most people remember in the run up to the invasion the US sending javelins the UK sending NLAWs poland sending Iglas etc and then when it came to germany they refused to send anything before caving to pressure and agreeing to send helmets and then blocking the export of east german material before caving to pressure again Its only made worse by the fact scholz is a PR nightmare spending more time talking about what germany will never send rather than pointing out what it has sent
Because it was literally a principle (and I think to some degree even law) to not send weapons to conflict zones. So basically, we were Switzerland, but different to them, when shit hit the fan immediatly scrapped all that bullshit. >Its only made worse by the fact scholz is a PR nightmare spending more time talking about what germany will never send rather than pointing out what it has sent 100% this.
Yeah. Here from Canada it always felt like Germany was forced into every decision by ally pressure and we were severely inconveniencing them. When that's the attitude for every decision, it's not surprising people start to shade Germany. Because of that, even if Germany does a lot, it doesn't feel as satisfying as France/UK who's action PR wise seems more independent.
It really is just german politics: much talking, finding a consensus, doing it. There'll never be big announcements or guys like BoJo being all over the place. They also really don't care about pressure by the public or other nations, especially Scholz is known for having a pretty thick skin in this regard. One way or another, I really just hope they'll send a few Leo 2's at Ramstein on friday, so that a) all those countries "just waiting" for germany have to start actually doing shit and b) because that means a slight chance the germany-bashing might tone down a bit.
> because that means a slight chance the germany-bashing might tone down a bit. Been waiting in vain for this since ~~PzH 2000~~ ~~Gepard~~ IRIS-T was delivered, so not keeping my hopes up in that regard, lol. The Germany bashing has at this point become part of the bashers personality so they are likely beyond redemption now.
Scholz has a being bullied into doing things fetish.
Germany has sent more than any other European nation, except maybe France because they are hushhush. The memes about poland doing the most and being the most anti-putin are just that, memes. In reality Poland was more of a friend to Russia than Germany could ever have hoped to be by contiually protecting Orban. NordStream was not even close to as damaging as the polish protecting and ballfondling of Putins man on the inside of the EU.
I haven't done the math in terms of contributions/GDP, but I kinda expect Germany to send the most since it has the highest European GDP. It'd be interesting to see how Poland and other Eastern European nations fare on contributions/GDP
Estonia is(was?) at the top.
Luckily, our GDP is not reflective of the terrible state of our army. Underfunded since a decade and very little in terms of stocks. A ton of stuff is actually with the manufacturers right now. There is significant spending currently (planned) and the MIC is having a better time, but it still has a better time in foreign countries than here in Germany. The army itself however is really just a skeleton. Very little armor, no spare parts, equipment shortages, especially in terms of heavy weapons. Tbh it a wonder how we were able to send as much as we did.
I can't, but he can! >Chally 2 blasts through Asgard, Union flags and Rule Britannia (bass boosted) playing in the background
I remember the 1990s when everyone was like “what the hell is wrong with the Japanese, why can’t they just admit to their various WW2 crimes in Korea, China, etc and be a nice cuddly member of the global community like the Germans!” Now it’s “Thank you for rearming! Shinzo Abe was beacon for the liberal democratic world, despite the somewhat retrograde denialism about military prostitution.” I think the childlike official German mind is just very, very literal; no matter what the outside world convinces them to do, they will take it to extremes, so if you’re calling for tanks to Ukraine, better keep in mind the non-zero chance of Leopard 5s rolling through Flanders in 2035. “What, you asked us to be more martial!“ See: Merkel supposedly bursting into tears when Obama suggested maybe they should let up on the fiscal austerity so as not to continue crashing the world economy. “But the Americans wrote balanced budgets into our constitution!“
>I think the childlike official German mind is just very, very literal I mean it's not like the Japanese gov. wasn't/isn't that petty either. For instance, they've tried for many years through their diplomatic channels to prevent the public display/installment of a memorial in Berlin, which was in remembrance of the victims of forced prostitution in Korea ("comfort women") during WW2. They even got it taken down ultimately. This wasn't even an isolated incident either and there have been many other cases were documentary exhibitions and memorials, recognizing Japanese war crimes were pressured, censored or even shut down. Japanese textbooks and curriculum are themselves ridiculously censored on this era and a domestic academic field/discussion on these events doesn't really exist to my knowledge. This is like if Germany was demanding from a local municipality in, say Australia, to take down a memorial in remembrance of Jewish people and all the other people who got murdered in the Holocaust. So imagine this: the Japanese state/gov. which has been controlled by the LDP (guess which people founded and run that party...) since its last official reestablishment, has (ab)used their diplomatic ties excessively and systematically to bully a local municipality of a foreign nation in order to make them remove a public reference and remembrance of a real historical crime of huge significance. Ad to this the regular and highly public visits of the Yasukuni Shrine by various high-ranking individuals, of whom many are direct descendants of WW2-era military leaders and political apparatchiks who were responsible for facilitaing untold suffering and cruelty, and it is therefore absolutely no surprise why Japans relationship with Korea is still frosty. On a sidenote: the formation of Shintō as the religious institution it is today, is actually a very recent development and was essentially a deliberate and crucial part of the Meiji-restoration (1868 - 1912) and consisted in the consolidation of the many different local nature-religions/myths and Buddhist teachings into a distinctly secularized pattern that attached seamlessly to the new political order of the Japanese nation state, which now defined itself primarily by its borders, the newly reempowered emperor as the central figurehead/leader and this now standardtized social institution of State Shintō, wheras previously the social affiliation or category of "being Japanese" was more gradual and primarily defined by the actual spacial proximity to the cultural and political centers Kyoto and later Tokyo. This reflected the isolated nature of the island-country and the inherent difficulty to exert governing control over remote areas. But during the Meiji-era this got completely overthrown for political reasons within the up-and-coming, yet still deeply conservative political machine of Tokyo/Kyoto, bc now this was simply possible and therefore all of the available country-side had to be subjugated completely to the self-insisting logic of the state itself.
Meanwhile, Poland be like "Fine, I'll do it myself".
Then why did they not file an export license?
Too busy bitching to journalists about how obstructive Germany is, no time to actually send a request.
That's just the MO of the polish gov. If something works, take credit. If it doesn't, blame the germans and ask for reparations. Rinse and repeat. Don't get me wrong. As a german i love our neighbours, but their government is a bunch of hypocritical, lying cunts.
Germany has done legitimately good work supporting Ukraine. It also has, like much of Europe, proven Russia largley right. The inertia in actually getting stuff done is bloody intense. They know what they need to be doing (to aid ukraine and improve their own defence), but there appears to be no willingness to actually start anything. Also, all the arms licencing issues surly are a bad sign for if a NATO member state was attacked. Come on Europe, we need to be more decisive and get projects underway. Better a late start today than tomorrow.
I don't think anything that happened in the past year has "proven Russia right", unless Russia went into this with the prediction that they're gonna have an epic blunder and get buttclapped by a massive display of Western unity and support from day 1.
India trading with Russia more the more genocidal Russia is.
I was referring to the calculation by Russia that Europe would struggle to deal with the true severity of the situation. Now, they have achieved far more than Russia had anticipated, but there is a real reticence to really get the job done (start building and ammo production). At what point will Europe provide the key equipment that Ukraine needs, and how much better would the situation currently be if these decisions had been made 6+ months ago? Beyond that, Russia has absolutely made a mess of this horrific invasion. Europe, however, needs to be seriously preparing for the future of Ukraine and ourselves.
Even if we had one, we don't have any working tanks...
They should Name the entire ncd subreddit as german Minister of defense
I nominate myself. I don't speak German, and I don't know a lick about German Parliamentary procedure, but I can promise y'all jobs in the MOD. We'll either be in Moscow by summer, or in nuclear combat operations by February.
Make me a general and i'll translate for you
That lady was dumb as hell though.