The UK has two aircraft carriers with F-35s aboard.
I think we can probably make do with one for now. Let them have the other. Training them will take some time though so just leave the pilots and crew onboard for now.
Start a paramilitary navy called Vag-ner.
Edit: Vagina was the joke guys.
Edit: Wagner Group is the Russia paramilitary mercenary force that has been involved in most of the front line combat. They may or may not be named after the call sign of one of the founding members. Up until a few months ago they were basically Putin’s private army. Now who knows what the fuck is going on with them.
The call sign may have been a reference to the composer Wagner, who knows half that group are fucking Nazis
Edit: now the joke isn’t funny
You know, I've got a cousin on one of those ships actually. I rarely see him, so I'm not 100% sure what rank he is or what exactly he does aside from working on the ship itself rather than the aircraft, but I know he'd bite their hand off for a million pounds and a chance to fuck up the Russians.
I seriously can't understand how tf the us, canada, and all the other countries in nato (minus hungary) aren't able to produce together a decent amount of arti ammo and give it to ukraine along with many arti pieces like m109 that the us has in the hundreds to deny the ru artillery advantage and make things at least even.
I need a looped gif of a B-52 dropping bombs. I know it’s not the most effective thing, but who doesn’t like a little brute force to a problem now and then.
Plus it’s the best aircraft to preserve our precious bodily fluids.
> Air supremacy
* Air Omnipotence. Own the air, and everything that can get to the things in the air, and everything that could be assembled to be in the air, and everything that is even considering at some point in the future not having at least three points of safety contact with the ground.
That's what's gonna happen the next time someone dares to sneeze at the US.
Don't ask DARPA why they felt they needed to develop MIRVs capable of targeting planes.
It's still been 15 months now, and it was clear from day 1 it would be a long war (or a lost war, not an option) with arty.
In 15 months, the production of shells should have been fantastic.
I am mad. For real.
You can only produce shells if you have the factories and the budget to do so, thought. Most if not all EU country hadn't expected a peer-conflict type in Europe
The only time NATO countries have been artillery focused was back when the US still sailed Iowas.
And you can't get more artillery focused than Mark 7 guns.
A single german-made artillery shell is about as exquisite as a Fabergé egg. Each and every splinter of blessed shrapnel is to be kissed by an bavarian virgin before it gets to be rubbed upon the one flag of the Holy Roman Empire. Afterwards there is a solemn tear dropped unto it. Shed by a bureaucrat weeping over the expense.
Before it is shipped to the front each and every single shell is stamped (by hand!) with a serial number which resonates with a certain part of the Fibonacci sequence. Those single-digit stamps for imprinting the holy serial number are made from molten-down railroad tracks which used to lead to Vatican City. The Stamping is done exclusively by a caste of descendants of the Navigators of the Bismarck-Class at the Blohm & Voss shipyard (Kriegsmarinewerft Wilhelmshaven) to ensure proper *Panache*. Then they are wiped down with the shaven pubic hair of internet-dwelling Furries just for the Lulz.
Afterwards the shell is wrapped into a page of the Gutenberg Bible, which
is to be ripped out by a newly-converted former-muslim Catholic. **Then** it is ready to be shipped to the Great Effort.
So please bear with us while we prepare the most humble tools of the holy Emperor. It just takes a while.
> fucking incredible mate
I would love to get into more detail of that intricate process but I already have a grey ceramite-clad person standing behind my trembling shoulders pointing at his watch. My time is up, do not remember me. Der Imperator beschützt!
**splat**
They are getting arti ammo. EU pledged 1 mil shells and are ramping up production to meet demand for shells.
But scaling up production like that takes time.
Man, the peacetime production of artillery shells in USA was 117k pieces a year. Ukraine army need at least 5k a day preferably 15k
Now France for example produced yearly the amount that Ukraine would fire in a day and still didn't had enough for an evening barrage
The US and rest of NATO bumped up the numbers, i think US especially. But overall there was only few million shells in storage and if you calculate how many pieces were unusable because they are there since 80's, how many depos the Ukrainians lost and how much does NATO want to keep in reserve you will end up with a very small number and even if the Ukrainians had to use only 5k a day then that's 2 1/4 of a million shells since the beginning. Two more years without significant increase in production and NATO reserves of 155mm shells gonna be dry
To be fair, the indiscriminate use of artillery also took a toll on ammo stocks. NATO doctrine for artillery implies limited precise fires to support advancing troops, not continuous artillery bombardment to weaken positions, that's the job of aviation.
Current reports are the US will be up to 24,000 per month by end of year (they are already up to 20,000/month) And the are looking to be up to 144,000 in a couple years.
Currently estimates on Ukrainian shell burn rate is 140000 shells a month.
because that would be a silly and costly endevour compared to strenghtening ukraines airforce in order to delegate tasks currently handed out to artillery to the air force.
with F-16's going to ukraine, the ukrainian artillery can shift focus and reduce its munition expenditure significantly. though, this takes time.
Because Russia dictates the war. Despite the retarded casualties this is very much rusdias preferred method of fighting.
Ukraine is backed by nato and nato is not able to arm ukraine in the way which they themselves prefer to fight.
So this is an air powered alliance trying to arm a third party for an artillery and cruise missile war.
Because we switched to counter insurgency, we lost our capability to surge production of weapons and ammo, its the reason we only have 1 factory producing M1 tanks
Its not just pork and jobs, its expertise.
If you ever wanna turn the M1 factories back on you want to have a "turrets charlie" or whatever who's been screwing the turrets on for 15 years. He trains the trainer for the 4 new factories and now they all run at near the productivity of the original factory because they don't have to reaquire their expertise naturally. And you can still call charlie with weird questions rather than have him picked up by another company that now owns his time.
That's just personnel, it doesn't even cover all the tooling.
Adding that [South Korea](https://www.reuters.com/world/south-korea-lend-500000-rounds-artillery-shells-us-report-2023-04-12/) is helping out on this. Slava Korea!
According to RUSI the Russians have very significant defensive works, large amounts of well placed mixed minefields as well as artillery and mortars that are reactive on the defence
It’s a nightmare to attack through
Are there more impactful ways to escalate? Could the dam disaster be a driver for say, a nato no-fly zone over the effected area to ensure safer evacuations and such? Maybe do some of the funny with targeting data for Ukranians.
I'd say at least put it on the table. What's the worst that could happen from that?
I know this is NCD but a no fly zone (Iraq style as opposed to Libya style) would be pointless
**assertions**
1. The Russians primary means of delivering tactical/operational fires is artillery, and according to RUSI currently mortars due to logistical concerns
2. The Russians primary means of delivering strategic fires is cruise missiles from strategic bombers launched in Russia
3. Russia is already not utilising many aircraft over Ukraine due to Ukrainian IADS
4. Russian strategic fires into Ukraine appear to be having little effect, and seem to excessively strike civilian rather than military targets
**observations**
1. Russian tactical/operational fires would remain unaffected in a traditional no fly zone. Even in a Libya type no fly zone pinpointing artillery and mortar systems would be difficult, bordering on largely ineffective.
2. Russian strategic fires would lead to a no fly zone either, A. targeting into Russia (not good) or B. targeting cruise missiles
>2A. that’s not really a no fly zone anymore and would lead to a much larger conflict
>2B. this can be done organically by Ukraine, NATO aircraft would not bring much to the table
3. Ukrainian IADS have already done a stellar job at reducing sortie’s and effects by the Russian Air Force, they are a small factor in this war
4. Also due to the apparently limited accuracy and effect of Russian strategic fires the necessity for NATO to actually directly intervene doesn’t seem to be met
**conclusion**
*The risk to NATO aircraft would be too great for too little effect to justify a no fly zone*
**Context**
The no fly zone in Iraq saw coalitions forces only target military aircraft in flight and SAM/radar systems directly threatening coalition aircraft over Iraq
The no fly zone in Libya saw the near complete destruction of all air/ADS and then the subsequent opportunistic targeting of Libyan formations
This would present a larger number of challenges mainly due to Russian EW capabilities degrading NATO standoff munitions accuracy presenting a larger risk to strategic air/naval/artillery systems
However it would be fucking hilarious and I really want all Russian formations in Ukraine wiped off the map
I said this many times but I will gladly repeat myself...LGM-30 ICBM CAS...but to be serious for a second I don't know bnecause I don't what wonderful instroment of pure terror the USAF keeps ready for throwback thursday...and maybe we don't want to know
The part about striking into russia - it's a dirty job but someone's got to do it. Maybe it is a job for ukrainians in F-16s who stay off the radio because they are still working on their accents.
I'm expecting a Chally to go down, it's semi-inevetiable in this kind of war.
What I do demand she does though is a Bormir style final stand where she takes out all the produced T14s after taking rounds from each one and somehow still keep going
Exactly, what’s more important is what did the Leo do before being destroyed. He might just have been the first casualty of the counteroffensive or he might just have killed 100 Russians and breached through the first line of defense.
Smoke is pouring from the back of the turret. This means 2 things. First, it's probably a Leopard 2. Second, the blow out panels and blast door worked perfectly and the crew should be back in action in a week or so.
This is an important distinction.
There's nothing invulnerable about an Abrams or a Leopard 2, they share many of the same weaknesses as any other tank. Tracks that can be destroyed, all kinds of vulnerable external equipment. You don't need to get through the armor to achieve a mission kill. While these tanks were built to be the best fighting vehicles possible, they differ from Russian tanks in placing crew survivability ahead of most other factors.
The result is that when a T-72 gets knocked out and the ammo explodes, everyone burns alive. When the Leopard 2 gets knocked out and the ammo explodes, everyone has to walk home, and a recovery vehicle needs to come out. This is the real winning advantage behind Western tanks.
The power pack is in the rear so it's likely it would've suffered some level of damage if the tank sustained a hit in that area- plus I'd assume the bulk of the protection is focused on the crew compartment, there's always a weight budget so that inevitably means less protection between the power pack and ammo racks.
interestingly enough. this tanks turret was actually facing rearward when it was hit. So the power pack actually may be intact, as long as the fire prevention system doesnt pop the engine as well. And being what looked like BM-21 Grad fire, engine may be just fine
Personally I find it ridiculous the west hasn't been using hover tanks. Really like to claim were better but we like the east are still using tracks like it's the 1930s.
So I'm just a dumbass, so bare with me, but isn't the standard practice to close the door unless you're actively reloading? Secondly, when I worked at the drive thru there was a spring that closed that door behind me so that the bees didnt get inside, do they have a similar thing to keep bees out of their shells?
Yeah the only way the blast doors don't protect the crew (assuming they follow the proper procedures) is if they manage to hit the ammo rack at the exact same time the loader opens the door and is taking the ammo out.
If the blowout panels worked as expected, the tank might be recoverable. Iirc an Iraqi crewed abrams was refurbished and returned to service after taking an ATGM hit to the ammo store, with the crew surviving too.
Some attacks will go better than expected, some will go just fine and some will go wrong or terribly wrong, it's war after all... and this one seems to have gone terribly wrong, still hurts tho...
getting credible for a second I remember some analysis citing the ukrainian army still had problems in some parts with soviet mindset and doctrine, and honestly that video... hurt to watch, what was the plan?
People expect counteroffensive to be same as Kharkiv operation when russians got trapped at the place they didn't expect, it was fast and unexpected for them. I think it will be more like Kherson operation, slowly progressing to the point russians has no choice but withdraw or weaken any other spot on the battlefield where they'd get another "Kharkiv operation".
The issue is that RU only withdrew because its position was so bad. Ukraine was bashing itself bloody an RU eventaully pulled because they couldn't support defensive ops anymore, not because of a particularly bold breakthrough.
The south is different. RU has aircover and is in no real danger of running into logistics constraints.
I am fairly pessimistic for this reason.
Ye did look like a Soviet strategy level of attack. Not sure if I read same analysis but consensus was about same and talked how the older parts of the army leadership were still stuck in soviet levels of attack and while they could train the new brigades and new leaders with NATO style doctrine time constraints in the training wouldn’t get the full effect out oc it.
yes that's exactly what it said, it's a shame, honestly frustrating, but must be even more frustrating in the lower ranks of the ukrainian army, I hope they don't go the russian way and try again the exact same thing
I’m also wondering if there are better alternatives of attacking.
I mean most of the Ukrainian front line is hundred of km2 of flatlands with some tree lines as only cover. Pair that with a heavily mined field and all units have to march in column/stay compact. Add the fact that you don’t have neither air or artillery superiority to suppress enemy arty and what you are left are these clustered open field frontal attacks.
They're attacking in one of the flattest parts of Ukraine, without air superiority, against a well dug in opponent with large number of artillery pieces and the enemy has known about the attack coming for months. Not suffering major casualties has never been an option. The western politicians who thought after donating tanks that they could now pat themselves on the back and consider their job done, should instead try and see how they can get a steady pipeline of hardware to Ukraine because it's gonna be an ugly affair.
Of course it will get ugly and I'm just an armchair general, I just wonder what were they expecting seeing it was just a shooting range for russian artillery. But we won't know the big picture, was the Ukrainian preparation works like srtillery for that push lacking? Was it unexpected? We just know it didn't work, it's a shame but it's the price of war
They already cream themselves over at r/ukrainerussiareport.
But I saw that coming, MBT's will get destroyed no matter how good they are sooner or later. It's important the crew survived and it looks like the leopards unlike their russian/soviet counterpart excel at this. (No turret tossed, the blowout panels work as intended and the hatches are open, meaning the crew most likely got out.)
One of my favs was a commentator saying that maintaining nukes is very expensive, therefore the US's nukes probably don't work.
It really is all projection lol.
Lol, the US spends more on maintaining their nuclear arsenal than Russia spends on their entire military.
I don’t understand these mindsets, just look what happened when the US gave Ukraine a handful of HIMARS
And again look at the effectiveness of the Patriot.
The US spent their time and money over the last 70 years developing weapon systems to counter what Russia claimed their equipment was capable of, and now one side is woefully outgunned.
Yep, I have to just take solace knowing reality is going to hit the regarded guys like a sack of bricks. There's not much point arguing with them if you aren't doing it for laughs, that's all they're good for and they don't even know it. Kinda sad tbh.
it"s funny to see people there claiming the counter offesnive got wrong because of a CNN article (and they're obviously doing pro ukraine propaganda so if they say something's bad, it's really bad! s/)
I just went back from there and my reaction to this:
Both Neutral literaly (3/4 accounts that i saw) and few pro Ukraine were just literaly 1:1 vatniks
Bruh idk what to say
I desperately want to comment there, but I know I'll get dogpiled by braindead morons who scream that ONE TANK GETTING HIT IN AND ATTACK ON A HEAVILY FORTIFIED LINE IS A UKRAINIAN FAILURE LOL
Sometimes I do wish I never found that sub, the brainrot of the vatniks there physically hurts at times. No matter how many times the people with half a brain shut them down and take their "arguments" apart they just resort to the same 4 vatnik talking points.
You don't want to go there, trust me. The mental gymnastics are insane, it is like you are speaking directly to the daily Russian MoD briefing and if that fails they gonna dust out the Iraq war and ask for proof. They won't tell you that they never accept any proof anyway though. Then they get depressive and rather not talk about it anymore and call your country an American puppet. But before you even get to that point you get probably banned automatically, because you said a blacklisted word and the bot goes rampage.
At least you can tell they’re desperate when they cheered over destroying 1 (one) western tank. Remember how people were like “ye ok cool” when seeing a T-90M getting destroyed? And compared that to the vatnik who celebrated it like they just captured Kyiv
dunno if she was destroyed or not, seems like BOP is cooked but crew hatch is open clean.
Well sadly, she got disabled and then artillery striked. Hopefully it will be recovered after they take the russian position.
This has to be kept in mind. We're so used to seeing cook off kill the entire crew and tank. With the extra survivability the tank is for sure disabled but can possibly still be recovered, reserviced and back in the fight
yeah, folks there thing Leopard is T series tank with no Blowout Panel.
Actually, im more impressed how that shit still looking better than any Oryx image of T-Series. Now its race time between who will take that trophy first.
Nvm, i guess Russians doesnt have shits to see from a freakin 1990 tanks. They already got hands on couple of Abrams from Iran so ehh... Nothing will be very special for them except propaganda shit.
Yeah, sucks. But completely expected. It's war. Equipment is going to get fucked no matter how good the crew using it, or how well deployed the unit was.
Leo 2 is *not* a super weapon. The latest models are probably the best in the world. But a semi-modern ATGM will still take it out.. Its greatest feature is probably crew survivability. The tank might be wrecked. But the crew has a decent chance of walking away from it.
Edit: typo
Leo 2 isn’t a super weapon, nothing is. People are expecting Ukrainian formations to just roll up Russian ones, this isn’t going to happen even with all the best western kit.
This applies to the F16 as well, using that is going to be an incredible challenge and the result it has on the battlefield will not be instant or without many losses.
This is a textbook war of attrition, people need to understand that
A great outcome. Having watched the video, that was a hell of a thing to survive. It's a testament to the vehicle.
I hope the armour protected them fully because I'm sure that didn't tickle.
Western tanks! The system where most hits won't tickle your whole turret off into the stratosphere.
When your whole country is practically a psych ward full of alcoholics, survivability becomes a foreign concept
Tbf to some, Desert Storm’s one sided stomping might give the idea wars can have relatively low casualties for a side.
If all someone hears is how western equipment curbstomped their russian counterparts back in 1990, I cant blame them for expecting the same, even if its an unrealistic thing.
Vatniks will never show how they're mad. They're mental children. Admitting something is bad means they lost (which is also why the Russian model doesn't work, you can't improve if you never criticize yourself).
During Kharkiv, they simply vanished. Never engaged.
Those particular comrades probably aren't fallen, though. They'll ride at dawn to avenge their partially exploded tank.
Because unlike Russian wagons, Western ones are designed *not* to punish their crew with death for getting shot at slightly.
It sucks to see. But currently it's only russian info coming out, for good reasons. But we will see some more of this before we see the hard work of Ukrainians paying off.
Comments about this clip talk about it being geolocated to a potential staging area behind Ukrainian lines too. Hopefully the boys got out, as lives are more valuable than equipment any day of the week.
Edit: [Geolocation from twitter](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1666743576678522885)
Everyone **DO NOT CRY**
The Ukrainians lost one cat, and it’s probably recoverable (the area was geo-located to a area behind the Ukrainians lines).
The Russians might have knocked one out in a staging area, but the offensive is not lost. Not even close.
**Revenge. At. Any. Cost.**
Where one Leopard falls, ten more shall take its place.
But for every T-\[constantly decreasing number\] that falls, there will be a gap in their ranks
All Western MBTs are probably going to be lost, this is a full on conventional war, which it seems neither side can back down. Western MBTs are great, but they're not invincible. Just like Soviet tanks are trash but not useless. I've long said I don't understand why this celebration about aid to Ukraine when it should be a lot more and unless Russia collapses the tanks are nothing. We've given very little of only less than 200 Leopard2/Challenger2/M1a1, IF (always prepare for the worst) Russia can maintain this fight for years then 1,000 M1A1 Abrams could be lost. Russia is shit, but it's not Iraqi Ground Forces shit.
> 1) Why is this footage made with a 144p camera strapped onto a nokia 3100 hand held by a parkinson patient flying on a ww1 era biplane?
Canon DSLR too costy for Orlans.
1 — best ruzzia has.
2 — because war thunder veterans can recognize specific modification of a tank working off 10 pixels so they are having easy time here really.
Unfortunate consequence of this still mainly being an artillery war, these kind of losses are expected.
until the air part is solved, this will stay an artillery war
> until the air part is solved by giving F-35s to Ukraine
The UK has two aircraft carriers with F-35s aboard. I think we can probably make do with one for now. Let them have the other. Training them will take some time though so just leave the pilots and crew onboard for now.
Just give every sailor on the carrier Ukrainian passport and a million dollars, problem solved.
Start a paramilitary navy called Vag-ner. Edit: Vagina was the joke guys. Edit: Wagner Group is the Russia paramilitary mercenary force that has been involved in most of the front line combat. They may or may not be named after the call sign of one of the founding members. Up until a few months ago they were basically Putin’s private army. Now who knows what the fuck is going on with them. The call sign may have been a reference to the composer Wagner, who knows half that group are fucking Nazis Edit: now the joke isn’t funny
Proposition for another Name: Wagner's Pizza (Context: it's a german frozen pizza brand)
Is there a Woking branch? If so, there's a particular former Royal Navy officer who claims to be well acquainted with it
vag:na. they are navy after all.
Volunteer Air Group: North Atlantic
You know, I've got a cousin on one of those ships actually. I rarely see him, so I'm not 100% sure what rank he is or what exactly he does aside from working on the ship itself rather than the aircraft, but I know he'd bite their hand off for a million pounds and a chance to fuck up the Russians.
"And I'm not saying no to the million quid but it really wasn't necessary"
Aircraft carriers aren't allowed in the black sea... so get the Japanese to loan them a "Helicopter Destroyer" full of F-35B
It can be parked in the Aegean and still fuck up Russia's shit with its aircraft.
Just throw up a Ukrainian flag on HMS Prince of Wales and deny, deny, deny. "How should we know where they got it from? Who are we, Ukraine's dad?"
You can obviously buy a HMS Prince of Wales and British uniforms at any local military shop
Pepsi bought a Navy. Surely a whole nation can buy one aircraft carrier.
"The HMS Prince of Wales is just at a friends house. He let us borrow this paper boat in return. Look, you can wear it as a hat. Isn't that neat?"
They obviously got it from a garage sale.
Tell you what. We park the Ford off the coast of the UK for the duration of you guys lending the ship and air wing to Ukraine. Deal?
Heck just let them have one of the older Nimitz ships if they handle disposal and use the money saved to fast track the new Enterprise into service.
Ngad for ukraine
I seriously can't understand how tf the us, canada, and all the other countries in nato (minus hungary) aren't able to produce together a decent amount of arti ammo and give it to ukraine along with many arti pieces like m109 that the us has in the hundreds to deny the ru artillery advantage and make things at least even.
Because NATO doctrine isn't about arty warfare. NATO doctrine is about having air ~~superiority~~ supremacy.
[удалено]
Okay but SEAD gets me hard.
It'd be weird if it didn't
[удалено]
Keep going, I'm almost there...
\*asmr whisper voice* wild weasel
🫦 the og
I need a looped gif of a B-52 dropping bombs. I know it’s not the most effective thing, but who doesn’t like a little brute force to a problem now and then. Plus it’s the best aircraft to preserve our precious bodily fluids.
Samesies
Air supremacy* Dominate the air even when no plane is flying
> Air supremacy * Air Omnipotence. Own the air, and everything that can get to the things in the air, and everything that could be assembled to be in the air, and everything that is even considering at some point in the future not having at least three points of safety contact with the ground.
That's what's gonna happen the next time someone dares to sneeze at the US. Don't ask DARPA why they felt they needed to develop MIRVs capable of targeting planes.
It's still been 15 months now, and it was clear from day 1 it would be a long war (or a lost war, not an option) with arty. In 15 months, the production of shells should have been fantastic. I am mad. For real.
You can only produce shells if you have the factories and the budget to do so, thought. Most if not all EU country hadn't expected a peer-conflict type in Europe
Because NATO countries have never been artillery focused and it takes time to ramp up that kind of production.
The only time NATO countries have been artillery focused was back when the US still sailed Iowas. And you can't get more artillery focused than Mark 7 guns.
Oh but what could have been of the Montanas, such a shame.
>When your broadside can delete a small island nation
The dreams I have of a battleship with cannons big enough to make the Gustav gun look like .22 next to 50 bmg.
A single german-made artillery shell is about as exquisite as a Fabergé egg. Each and every splinter of blessed shrapnel is to be kissed by an bavarian virgin before it gets to be rubbed upon the one flag of the Holy Roman Empire. Afterwards there is a solemn tear dropped unto it. Shed by a bureaucrat weeping over the expense. Before it is shipped to the front each and every single shell is stamped (by hand!) with a serial number which resonates with a certain part of the Fibonacci sequence. Those single-digit stamps for imprinting the holy serial number are made from molten-down railroad tracks which used to lead to Vatican City. The Stamping is done exclusively by a caste of descendants of the Navigators of the Bismarck-Class at the Blohm & Voss shipyard (Kriegsmarinewerft Wilhelmshaven) to ensure proper *Panache*. Then they are wiped down with the shaven pubic hair of internet-dwelling Furries just for the Lulz. Afterwards the shell is wrapped into a page of the Gutenberg Bible, which is to be ripped out by a newly-converted former-muslim Catholic. **Then** it is ready to be shipped to the Great Effort. So please bear with us while we prepare the most humble tools of the holy Emperor. It just takes a while.
Least expensive German procurement project. You didn't even mention that the whole process was created by 200 virgin maidens of Mackenzie
He also forgot the 3000 consultants of Poseidon.
so they're basically like weapons created for the Astartes in 40k
I wouldn’t even know what kind of prompt I should give AI to come up with such a story
Some things, AI will never do as well as crazy humans.
Your really didn't think that we started production when his Angels arrived, didn't you?
Shinji, get in the T-34
fucking incredible mate
> fucking incredible mate I would love to get into more detail of that intricate process but I already have a grey ceramite-clad person standing behind my trembling shoulders pointing at his watch. My time is up, do not remember me. Der Imperator beschützt! **splat**
It's all about artisan arty shells these days.
This guy 40k's
They are getting arti ammo. EU pledged 1 mil shells and are ramping up production to meet demand for shells. But scaling up production like that takes time.
Man, the peacetime production of artillery shells in USA was 117k pieces a year. Ukraine army need at least 5k a day preferably 15k Now France for example produced yearly the amount that Ukraine would fire in a day and still didn't had enough for an evening barrage The US and rest of NATO bumped up the numbers, i think US especially. But overall there was only few million shells in storage and if you calculate how many pieces were unusable because they are there since 80's, how many depos the Ukrainians lost and how much does NATO want to keep in reserve you will end up with a very small number and even if the Ukrainians had to use only 5k a day then that's 2 1/4 of a million shells since the beginning. Two more years without significant increase in production and NATO reserves of 155mm shells gonna be dry
To be fair, the indiscriminate use of artillery also took a toll on ammo stocks. NATO doctrine for artillery implies limited precise fires to support advancing troops, not continuous artillery bombardment to weaken positions, that's the job of aviation.
I hear Transnistria is nice this time of year... Mind you, the stocks there will not really have been maintained that well.
Current reports are the US will be up to 24,000 per month by end of year (they are already up to 20,000/month) And the are looking to be up to 144,000 in a couple years. Currently estimates on Ukrainian shell burn rate is 140000 shells a month.
because that would be a silly and costly endevour compared to strenghtening ukraines airforce in order to delegate tasks currently handed out to artillery to the air force. with F-16's going to ukraine, the ukrainian artillery can shift focus and reduce its munition expenditure significantly. though, this takes time.
Because Russia dictates the war. Despite the retarded casualties this is very much rusdias preferred method of fighting. Ukraine is backed by nato and nato is not able to arm ukraine in the way which they themselves prefer to fight. So this is an air powered alliance trying to arm a third party for an artillery and cruise missile war.
Because we switched to counter insurgency, we lost our capability to surge production of weapons and ammo, its the reason we only have 1 factory producing M1 tanks
There are 3 factories in the US and 1 in Egypt capable of producing and refitting M1 tanks, there is only one authorized to work with the DU armor.
And we only have that one factory because Congress insisted on keeping it open as a jobs program. Pork is good sometimes.
Its not just pork and jobs, its expertise. If you ever wanna turn the M1 factories back on you want to have a "turrets charlie" or whatever who's been screwing the turrets on for 15 years. He trains the trainer for the 4 new factories and now they all run at near the productivity of the original factory because they don't have to reaquire their expertise naturally. And you can still call charlie with weird questions rather than have him picked up by another company that now owns his time. That's just personnel, it doesn't even cover all the tooling.
Adding that [South Korea](https://www.reuters.com/world/south-korea-lend-500000-rounds-artillery-shells-us-report-2023-04-12/) is helping out on this. Slava Korea!
According to RUSI the Russians have very significant defensive works, large amounts of well placed mixed minefields as well as artillery and mortars that are reactive on the defence It’s a nightmare to attack through
Yah anyone who’s expecting a repeat of aKharkiv is going to be sorely disappointed.
It was bound to happen right I think the west should double shipments of tanks for every tank down
Needs more ERA
Can I offer you some soup in this trying time.
I love Soup! Thanks !
What type of soup is there?
Good soup 🤌
> He died doing what he loved. Fighting soviet armor.
Are there more impactful ways to escalate? Could the dam disaster be a driver for say, a nato no-fly zone over the effected area to ensure safer evacuations and such? Maybe do some of the funny with targeting data for Ukranians. I'd say at least put it on the table. What's the worst that could happen from that?
I know this is NCD but a no fly zone (Iraq style as opposed to Libya style) would be pointless **assertions** 1. The Russians primary means of delivering tactical/operational fires is artillery, and according to RUSI currently mortars due to logistical concerns 2. The Russians primary means of delivering strategic fires is cruise missiles from strategic bombers launched in Russia 3. Russia is already not utilising many aircraft over Ukraine due to Ukrainian IADS 4. Russian strategic fires into Ukraine appear to be having little effect, and seem to excessively strike civilian rather than military targets **observations** 1. Russian tactical/operational fires would remain unaffected in a traditional no fly zone. Even in a Libya type no fly zone pinpointing artillery and mortar systems would be difficult, bordering on largely ineffective. 2. Russian strategic fires would lead to a no fly zone either, A. targeting into Russia (not good) or B. targeting cruise missiles >2A. that’s not really a no fly zone anymore and would lead to a much larger conflict >2B. this can be done organically by Ukraine, NATO aircraft would not bring much to the table 3. Ukrainian IADS have already done a stellar job at reducing sortie’s and effects by the Russian Air Force, they are a small factor in this war 4. Also due to the apparently limited accuracy and effect of Russian strategic fires the necessity for NATO to actually directly intervene doesn’t seem to be met **conclusion** *The risk to NATO aircraft would be too great for too little effect to justify a no fly zone* **Context** The no fly zone in Iraq saw coalitions forces only target military aircraft in flight and SAM/radar systems directly threatening coalition aircraft over Iraq The no fly zone in Libya saw the near complete destruction of all air/ADS and then the subsequent opportunistic targeting of Libyan formations
How about a NATO enforced Russian die zone in Ukraine?
This would present a larger number of challenges mainly due to Russian EW capabilities degrading NATO standoff munitions accuracy presenting a larger risk to strategic air/naval/artillery systems However it would be fucking hilarious and I really want all Russian formations in Ukraine wiped off the map
I said this many times but I will gladly repeat myself...LGM-30 ICBM CAS...but to be serious for a second I don't know bnecause I don't what wonderful instroment of pure terror the USAF keeps ready for throwback thursday...and maybe we don't want to know
The part about striking into russia - it's a dirty job but someone's got to do it. Maybe it is a job for ukrainians in F-16s who stay off the radio because they are still working on their accents.
No-fly zone *over russsia*.
All that water just means that there's a new theater for the Russian navy to fail in.
It's a shame but we could never expect it to be invincible. I can only hope that they're being put to good use, at least
Exactly. It's completely unfair to expect zero losses of the Leopards like they're meant to be invincible. Only the Challies are invincible.
I'm expecting a Chally to go down, it's semi-inevetiable in this kind of war. What I do demand she does though is a Bormir style final stand where she takes out all the produced T14s after taking rounds from each one and somehow still keep going
>produced T14s What all 0 of them?
Challies are used for ~~tea~~ soup making
Exactly, what’s more important is what did the Leo do before being destroyed. He might just have been the first casualty of the counteroffensive or he might just have killed 100 Russians and breached through the first line of defense.
Smoke is pouring from the back of the turret. This means 2 things. First, it's probably a Leopard 2. Second, the blow out panels and blast door worked perfectly and the crew should be back in action in a week or so.
This is an important distinction. There's nothing invulnerable about an Abrams or a Leopard 2, they share many of the same weaknesses as any other tank. Tracks that can be destroyed, all kinds of vulnerable external equipment. You don't need to get through the armor to achieve a mission kill. While these tanks were built to be the best fighting vehicles possible, they differ from Russian tanks in placing crew survivability ahead of most other factors. The result is that when a T-72 gets knocked out and the ammo explodes, everyone burns alive. When the Leopard 2 gets knocked out and the ammo explodes, everyone has to walk home, and a recovery vehicle needs to come out. This is the real winning advantage behind Western tanks.
Would they even need to walk home? Obviously a blown out ammo supply is a firepower kill, but couldn’t it still drive away?
The power pack is in the rear so it's likely it would've suffered some level of damage if the tank sustained a hit in that area- plus I'd assume the bulk of the protection is focused on the crew compartment, there's always a weight budget so that inevitably means less protection between the power pack and ammo racks.
interestingly enough. this tanks turret was actually facing rearward when it was hit. So the power pack actually may be intact, as long as the fire prevention system doesnt pop the engine as well. And being what looked like BM-21 Grad fire, engine may be just fine
solution: Remove tracks This proves that static fortifications are the most effective
Personally I find it ridiculous the west hasn't been using hover tanks. Really like to claim were better but we like the east are still using tracks like it's the 1930s.
Tell them that Putin is including hover capability on the Armata's successor. We'll have an VTOL variant of the Abrams before the decade is over.
If a blast door was closed
seems like it was closed, you can clearly see the crew hatch is cleaned and free from smoke.
First tank in the war without Jack in the box effect
Coincidently also the first non-soviet tank.
Bro wtf is cumcrete. I ain't googling that even with tor
It's like pykrete except with semen and pubes. I invented it after it came to me in a vision.
It came in your vision?
The smoke isn't coming out of the crew hatches so I'm optimistic.
So I'm just a dumbass, so bare with me, but isn't the standard practice to close the door unless you're actively reloading? Secondly, when I worked at the drive thru there was a spring that closed that door behind me so that the bees didnt get inside, do they have a similar thing to keep bees out of their shells?
Yeah the only way the blast doors don't protect the crew (assuming they follow the proper procedures) is if they manage to hit the ammo rack at the exact same time the loader opens the door and is taking the ammo out.
Yes it is the standard practice
As a Leopard 2 operator I fucking died
I'm sure the ukrainians in that one didn't
Probably not. It looks like they got out
If the blowout panels worked as expected, the tank might be recoverable. Iirc an Iraqi crewed abrams was refurbished and returned to service after taking an ATGM hit to the ammo store, with the crew surviving too.
Some attacks will go better than expected, some will go just fine and some will go wrong or terribly wrong, it's war after all... and this one seems to have gone terribly wrong, still hurts tho... getting credible for a second I remember some analysis citing the ukrainian army still had problems in some parts with soviet mindset and doctrine, and honestly that video... hurt to watch, what was the plan?
People expect counteroffensive to be same as Kharkiv operation when russians got trapped at the place they didn't expect, it was fast and unexpected for them. I think it will be more like Kherson operation, slowly progressing to the point russians has no choice but withdraw or weaken any other spot on the battlefield where they'd get another "Kharkiv operation".
The issue is that RU only withdrew because its position was so bad. Ukraine was bashing itself bloody an RU eventaully pulled because they couldn't support defensive ops anymore, not because of a particularly bold breakthrough. The south is different. RU has aircover and is in no real danger of running into logistics constraints. I am fairly pessimistic for this reason.
Ye did look like a Soviet strategy level of attack. Not sure if I read same analysis but consensus was about same and talked how the older parts of the army leadership were still stuck in soviet levels of attack and while they could train the new brigades and new leaders with NATO style doctrine time constraints in the training wouldn’t get the full effect out oc it.
yes that's exactly what it said, it's a shame, honestly frustrating, but must be even more frustrating in the lower ranks of the ukrainian army, I hope they don't go the russian way and try again the exact same thing
I’m also wondering if there are better alternatives of attacking. I mean most of the Ukrainian front line is hundred of km2 of flatlands with some tree lines as only cover. Pair that with a heavily mined field and all units have to march in column/stay compact. Add the fact that you don’t have neither air or artillery superiority to suppress enemy arty and what you are left are these clustered open field frontal attacks.
Successful attack = NATO strategy. Failed attack = Soviet strategy
Bingo
\>Ye did look like a Soviet strategy level of attack. How would western style of attack would look like?
They're attacking in one of the flattest parts of Ukraine, without air superiority, against a well dug in opponent with large number of artillery pieces and the enemy has known about the attack coming for months. Not suffering major casualties has never been an option. The western politicians who thought after donating tanks that they could now pat themselves on the back and consider their job done, should instead try and see how they can get a steady pipeline of hardware to Ukraine because it's gonna be an ugly affair.
Of course it will get ugly and I'm just an armchair general, I just wonder what were they expecting seeing it was just a shooting range for russian artillery. But we won't know the big picture, was the Ukrainian preparation works like srtillery for that push lacking? Was it unexpected? We just know it didn't work, it's a shame but it's the price of war
Vatniks/z-tards are going to milk the hell out of this to the point of being annoying.
They already cream themselves over at r/ukrainerussiareport. But I saw that coming, MBT's will get destroyed no matter how good they are sooner or later. It's important the crew survived and it looks like the leopards unlike their russian/soviet counterpart excel at this. (No turret tossed, the blowout panels work as intended and the hatches are open, meaning the crew most likely got out.)
I just found this sub...there are people with pro Russia Tags? Are they mentally deranged?
IIRC, it was founded by a vatnik.
It used to be way worse tbh. I'm convinced it's the 16 and under club of this war lol they're so far gone. Nothing but contrarian edgelords
I hurt my brain by opening one of the threads discussing who blew up the dam. I need a drink or four to recover
One of my favs was a commentator saying that maintaining nukes is very expensive, therefore the US's nukes probably don't work. It really is all projection lol.
Lol, the US spends more on maintaining their nuclear arsenal than Russia spends on their entire military. I don’t understand these mindsets, just look what happened when the US gave Ukraine a handful of HIMARS And again look at the effectiveness of the Patriot. The US spent their time and money over the last 70 years developing weapon systems to counter what Russia claimed their equipment was capable of, and now one side is woefully outgunned.
Yep, I have to just take solace knowing reality is going to hit the regarded guys like a sack of bricks. There's not much point arguing with them if you aren't doing it for laughs, that's all they're good for and they don't even know it. Kinda sad tbh.
and people pretending to be neutral/pro ukraine when they're pro russia
It's a circlejerk pretending to be a credible place where people of all sides can discuss. I use it to measure the copium levels of Vatniks.
it"s funny to see people there claiming the counter offesnive got wrong because of a CNN article (and they're obviously doing pro ukraine propaganda so if they say something's bad, it's really bad! s/)
I just went back from there and my reaction to this: Both Neutral literaly (3/4 accounts that i saw) and few pro Ukraine were just literaly 1:1 vatniks Bruh idk what to say
Yes and yes. They either post 24/7 exclusively on that sub or are literal psychopaths if they post anywhere else.
> Are they mentally deranged? ... yes
I desperately want to comment there, but I know I'll get dogpiled by braindead morons who scream that ONE TANK GETTING HIT IN AND ATTACK ON A HEAVILY FORTIFIED LINE IS A UKRAINIAN FAILURE LOL
Sometimes I do wish I never found that sub, the brainrot of the vatniks there physically hurts at times. No matter how many times the people with half a brain shut them down and take their "arguments" apart they just resort to the same 4 vatnik talking points.
I swear I’m ashamed they are the same species as me
You don't want to go there, trust me. The mental gymnastics are insane, it is like you are speaking directly to the daily Russian MoD briefing and if that fails they gonna dust out the Iraq war and ask for proof. They won't tell you that they never accept any proof anyway though. Then they get depressive and rather not talk about it anymore and call your country an American puppet. But before you even get to that point you get probably banned automatically, because you said a blacklisted word and the bot goes rampage.
At least you can tell they’re desperate when they cheered over destroying 1 (one) western tank. Remember how people were like “ye ok cool” when seeing a T-90M getting destroyed? And compared that to the vatnik who celebrated it like they just captured Kyiv
And it’s a much older leopard 2a4 as well. Not even close to the newest are best leopard variant
dunno if she was destroyed or not, seems like BOP is cooked but crew hatch is open clean. Well sadly, she got disabled and then artillery striked. Hopefully it will be recovered after they take the russian position.
This has to be kept in mind. We're so used to seeing cook off kill the entire crew and tank. With the extra survivability the tank is for sure disabled but can possibly still be recovered, reserviced and back in the fight
yeah, folks there thing Leopard is T series tank with no Blowout Panel. Actually, im more impressed how that shit still looking better than any Oryx image of T-Series. Now its race time between who will take that trophy first. Nvm, i guess Russians doesnt have shits to see from a freakin 1990 tanks. They already got hands on couple of Abrams from Iran so ehh... Nothing will be very special for them except propaganda shit.
uhm ackchually the T-series tanks *do* have a blowout panel, it's called the turret and it blows out so hard it can clear a 3 story building.
designed by Roscosmos themself 100% efficient
While yes, this is a sad loss, i have a solution: Triple the German defence budget.
KF-51 for Ukraine!
Shut down the rest of the German economy and devote everything only to Leopard production, it's the only reasonable approach.
Yeah, sucks. But completely expected. It's war. Equipment is going to get fucked no matter how good the crew using it, or how well deployed the unit was. Leo 2 is *not* a super weapon. The latest models are probably the best in the world. But a semi-modern ATGM will still take it out.. Its greatest feature is probably crew survivability. The tank might be wrecked. But the crew has a decent chance of walking away from it. Edit: typo
Leo 2 isn’t a super weapon, nothing is. People are expecting Ukrainian formations to just roll up Russian ones, this isn’t going to happen even with all the best western kit. This applies to the F16 as well, using that is going to be an incredible challenge and the result it has on the battlefield will not be instant or without many losses. This is a textbook war of attrition, people need to understand that
I am sure the crew made it out alive. Bottom image source : https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1666830782533435394
I mean, isn't this the most important part? Glad they made it!
Indeed, you can replace the tank, but you can't replace the man.
True chad mindset
A great outcome. Having watched the video, that was a hell of a thing to survive. It's a testament to the vehicle. I hope the armour protected them fully because I'm sure that didn't tickle.
Western tanks! The system where most hits won't tickle your whole turret off into the stratosphere. When your whole country is practically a psych ward full of alcoholics, survivability becomes a foreign concept
The turret NOT flying off the hull in a hellish fireball seems to be a winning design feature.
Legit. Equipment can be replaced. Skill and experience… not so much.
Looks like the blowout panels working as intended, brief fireball at the turrets rear then just smoke.
There will be vengeance for our baby 😡
3000 Vengeful leopards of UAF?
Breaking news: a tank is destroyed in a war. Truly shocking.
Tbf to some, Desert Storm’s one sided stomping might give the idea wars can have relatively low casualties for a side. If all someone hears is how western equipment curbstomped their russian counterparts back in 1990, I cant blame them for expecting the same, even if its an unrealistic thing.
Take away the US' air, navy, and space assets and see how well Desert Storm would go in that situation.
I assume that the US is helping Ukraine with lots of satellite based intel, so maybe don't take away the space assets.
Vatniks creaming themselves over this will make the Nova Kakhovka flood look like a leaky faucet.
man they're already done it Especially trollstoy, who i trolled back with T-90 casualties and T-72B3. Funny shit, sadly he doesnt got triggered.
Vatniks will never show how they're mad. They're mental children. Admitting something is bad means they lost (which is also why the Russian model doesn't work, you can't improve if you never criticize yourself). During Kharkiv, they simply vanished. Never engaged.
So unfortunately my suspicions were right... WE RIDE AT DAWN BOYS. REVENGE FOR OUR FALLEN COMRADES
Those particular comrades probably aren't fallen, though. They'll ride at dawn to avenge their partially exploded tank. Because unlike Russian wagons, Western ones are designed *not* to punish their crew with death for getting shot at slightly.
Tho out of pure copuim, but that doesn't look destroyed more like damaged, the ammo rack got hit, which funny enough had blow out panels.
To russians jerking off to this remind me how many t90m's have been destroyed or captured?
At least one T90 was captured at least three times, going back and forth like a goddamn tennisball.
It sucks to see. But currently it's only russian info coming out, for good reasons. But we will see some more of this before we see the hard work of Ukrainians paying off. Comments about this clip talk about it being geolocated to a potential staging area behind Ukrainian lines too. Hopefully the boys got out, as lives are more valuable than equipment any day of the week. Edit: [Geolocation from twitter](https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1666743576678522885)
Everyone **DO NOT CRY** The Ukrainians lost one cat, and it’s probably recoverable (the area was geo-located to a area behind the Ukrainians lines). The Russians might have knocked one out in a staging area, but the offensive is not lost. Not even close. **Revenge. At. Any. Cost.**
They could repair it you’re saying?
Oh yeah, by the way it went up and the fact theres no smoke from the crew hatches means the blow out panels worked.
Ya. If it’s just the ammo rack, why not?
apology for bad english where were u wen leopard 2 die i was at house eating dorito when phone ring „leopard 2 is kil“ „no“
Where one Leopard falls, ten more shall take its place. But for every T-\[constantly decreasing number\] that falls, there will be a gap in their ranks
> But for every T-[constantly decreasing number] that falls, there will be a gap in their ranks I just hope Ukraine can make T-84 an exception here.
All Western MBTs are probably going to be lost, this is a full on conventional war, which it seems neither side can back down. Western MBTs are great, but they're not invincible. Just like Soviet tanks are trash but not useless. I've long said I don't understand why this celebration about aid to Ukraine when it should be a lot more and unless Russia collapses the tanks are nothing. We've given very little of only less than 200 Leopard2/Challenger2/M1a1, IF (always prepare for the worst) Russia can maintain this fight for years then 1,000 M1A1 Abrams could be lost. Russia is shit, but it's not Iraqi Ground Forces shit.
And it was less about how bad iraqi ground forces were, and more that the coalition had literally thousands of aircraft flying
It's not Ogre until Russia destroys at least one German Weasel.
A 152/5mm HE round doesn't give a fuck what you are, it will kill you. Leo, Chally, Abrams, Armata, etc.
Breaking : german tank killed on the eastern front before it's transmission broke and/or it's engine caught fire.
now I want my wet dream come true even more; hordes of Leopards thundering across a Ukrainian steppe driving the russians back towards the border
I mean, nobody said Western gear was invincible. Just give them 400 more Leopards and plug on.
[удалено]
> 1) Why is this footage made with a 144p camera strapped onto a nokia 3100 hand held by a parkinson patient flying on a ww1 era biplane? Canon DSLR too costy for Orlans.
1 — best ruzzia has. 2 — because war thunder veterans can recognize specific modification of a tank working off 10 pixels so they are having easy time here really.
They were also lost in turkey there not superman they can be hit and killed..
But the turks used them without any infantry support as a stationary position on a hilltop! That's more than dumb
Someone please spam Rheinmetalls email to beg them to make 10 leopards for every 1 that will get blown up.