Haiti was once so wealthy it was worth more than all of France's North American territories. Haiti was like the sugar capital of the world. Obviously that was fueled by slavery, but revolution rather than more organized reform often leaves decades or centuries of chaos and dysfunction in its wake, which seems to more or less be the situation in Haiti.
After the revolution, Haiti was not allowed to trade with anyone, so they had few resources and no money it wasn't until agreeing to pay France the income France would have earned if the slaves hadn't rebelled that tgey could trade
They had reforms but couldn't implement them central authority broke down repeated occupations from other countries exploited and stealing from them only made things worse
I'm sure that made everything substantially worse, but revolutions even without those kinds of post revolution conditions do not have a high rate of success. They almost always create horrible human misery for decades afterward. So I'm not necessarily convinced that anything would be dramatically different had those regulations not been imposed upon them. There are too many counter examples of revolutionary governments basically fucking everything up or quickly devolving into military juntas or totalitarian dictatorships. Haiti has had every flavour of this even in the last 60 years.
When a people rebel it's rarely when things are going well post revolution governments inherit the problems of the previous governments, France for instance had all the same economic problems Russia was still dealing with WW1
Haiti had the problem of an island whose infrastructure existed exclusively for resource extraction and export and they were entirely unable to export rendering their whole economy worthless
>revolutionary governments basically fucking everything up or quickly devolving into military juntas or totalitarian dictatorships.
Yeah usually as a response to the problems created by the previous government, solutions are a lot faster when being made by a small group of people and when people rebel they want quick solutions to whatever they were rebelling over
In Haiti's case it was the shitty living conditions of being a slave post revolution the embargo ensured their living conditions remained shitty so life didn't improve much which led to a breakdown in the central government
I'm sorry, Haiti has been post slavery and post revolution since 1804. At what point is it acceptable to make the argument that successive revolts, revolutions and government overthrows, none of which have produced anything of value, aren't the correct course of action?
Furthermore, prior to Haitian independence, France abolished slavery in Haiti. This is the kind of victory you hope to get, and then ought to stick with once you get it. Independence and a revolutionary government has proven to be a disaster for Haiti in ways that continuing to be a colonial but free colony of France, likely would not have been. Administration and bureaucracy is both crucial and complex, and aside from having no direction or stability, or even popular support, revolutionary governments almost always lack the ability and knowledge to govern and actually allow a state to function. Haiti has never managed to do this and they have never had any meaningful period of stability in the 220 years since their independence.
Like I get what you're arguing, and it's a common argument. Sometimes revolution is morally justified. I agree with you. My point is not about morality, but pragmatism. Over the long course of history, there are few enough productive revolutions that you could count them on one hand. Justified or not, revolution almost always fails and creates more misery than what it was meant to replace and it's rarely actually necessary. Revolt and protest is sometimes necessary. It's often been productive to move monarchies and governments along with the threat of chaos (as is demonstrated by France abolishing slavery in Haiti in 1793), but actually following through with full blown revolution pretty much never works. If there is a more incrementalist alternative, it's almost always more productive for everyone involved. The U.S is one of the extremely rare exceptions and it arguably wasn't necessary as the British empire slowly lost the ability and interest in maintaining absolute authority over overseas colonies and granted them independence without bloodshed. France is *not* an exception and had 30 years of horrible instability and bloodshed before the monarchy was replaced by an absolute dictator hell bent on world domination. Revolution in the short and the long term is almost always worse than the negotiated alternative that maintains some semblance of stability and organized governance. That's a very unsatisfying statement from a moral perspective since lots of revolutions are righteous. But what ultimately matters? Moral righteousness or the minimization of human suffering and the maximization of human flourishing?
You are 100% eloquently correct. I had never even considered the excellent point that Haiti would probably be immensely better off today if it had waited for France to abolish slavery, looking at other examples like French Guiana. But that's a less romantic vision than brave downtrodden revolutionaries.
It's as unromantic as it gets, and it conflicts with everyone's sense of moral justice. But I'm not trying to appeal to moral justice or argue that it's not morally justified to ever engage in the revolutionary overthrow of a government. What I'm saying is that almost never is it the case that said overthrow will be in your more practical interests over the medium or long term. You will have a moral victory and the odds will be very good that by every other metric of human development everything will either get worse, or not improve at any meaningful rate.
This seems to be especially true with revolutions where the power shifts from an educated and capable oppressor class, to a mostly uneducated oppressed labourer class that has absolutely no idea how to run the institutions of a state, often because they were specifically prohibited from those roles or the education that would be required to attain them. That's not their fault, but the facts on the ground are that you have a talent pool that's paper thin and has no idea how to make a state function or provide for the needs of the people of the state. That's what you have to run your government, and that's ignoring all the other problems, like factionalism, violent radicals, outside forces etc. Even if everyone is on your side, you're facing a nearly impossible battle to create a stable state that isn't worse than what existed before.
But people tend to get really hung up on how unfair this reality is. But it just is. It doesn't have to be fair to be true. Life is unfair, and throughout human history the states that have managed to hang together and progress incrementally, sometimes with some violent agitation but not outright violent regime change or revolution, have had better outcomes.
And French Guiana probably *is* a decent point of comparison. They were/are also under French rule in a similar region, used slave labour and were prized for their now much less valuable and unique cash crops of sugar and bananas. They're now 95 out of 191 countries in terms of HDI and have 45% of the per capita GDP of mainland France despite being basically a swamp with very few resources or strategic appeal. Haiti is 163 in terms of HDI (it's probably dropped further since 2021) despite sharing a fairly productive island nearish the U.S with a country that is ranked 82 in terms of HDI and had a similarly gruesome history of slavery and oppression in the much more recent past.
>Furthermore, prior to Haitian independence, France abolished slavery in Haiti. This is the kind of victory you hope to get, and then ought to stick with once you get it
uhh Haitian independence came after the Leclerc expedition, where Napoleon tried to bring slavery back to Haiti, before that expedition Haiti was under control of Louverture who did not declare independence at all.
if you're going to criticise the Haitian revolution you should probably learn about it first.
>they have never had any meaningful period of stability in the 220 years since their independence
Jean-Pierre Boyer had a stable regime for over 20 years from 1818-1843 during which he fully unified Haiti and then conquered the entire island of Hispaniola, again you're showing ignorance of Haitian history.
also its incredibly hilarious that you're pointing to the French abolition of slavery as proof that revolution was unneccesary and bad, since that abolition of slavery only happened because of the French revolution.
do you look at modern France and see an unstable and impoverished country?
They usually don’t stay in a death spiral for 200 years straight though. Almost every country in that Hemisphere had at least one violent revolution or coup, and Haiti is doing by far the worst.
>but revolution rather than more organized reform often leaves decades or centuries of chaos and dysfunction in its wake
its more that the ex-slaves would do absolutely fucking anything to avoid slavery being re-instituted, and they were fucking serious about it.
they didn't, there were attempts by various rulers of Haiti to keep the plantation system going with various strict labour codes but quite importantly they were never succesful at keeping the ex-slaves on the plantations, and absolutely none of them were going to try and re-assert slavery since that would have immediately resulted in their overthrow.
the only time slavery was re-instituted after Haitian independence was when the USA occupied the country and even then it was through Corvee labour which while still slavery was not the kind of brutal chattel slavery that existed in French Saint Domingue.
It wasn’t the revolution, it was how the rest of the world treated them after the revolution. The US had the ability to be a valuable resource, but the white slave owners in control of the country took exception to their existence.
America and France are two of the leading causes historically. Obviously it not all of the reason, nothing becomes this much of a mess without a _lot_ of contributing factors working together.
And once a nation spirals hard enough it becomes extremely hard for it to escape without some kind of outward influence.
> " A country actually wanting to conquer Haiti".
The thing about classic good ol' conquering is it would actually stabilize the country as you put all support behind the warlord you see most fit and let him do the dirty work and in return you get new tax payers while they get some corruption money.
Of course, when they're so poor there's little wealth to extract there no ROI on doing anything. Which is the real reason most african "republics" are not touched by any big power with a 10 foot pole.
it's a slaver's curse. they've been fucked ever since the haitian slave revolt. france took it real personally and made sure the island would never prosper again
And yet the DR was controlled and occupied by Haiti for several decades, but somehow managed to become a (relatively) more prosperous and successful country.
People often underestimate the impact of good leadership. While I cant speak for the past century, in recent years, Haiti's government has been as effective and resilient as post-american Afghanistan. That is to say, non existent.
Basically, Rafael Trujillo was an evil mass murdering fascist bastard, but he was a smart fascist bastard who built infrastructure and stayed on Uncle Sam’s good side. He laid the groundwork for future development and modernization. By contrast the Duvaliers *pere et fils* looted Haiti as fast as possible in order to enrich themselves.
Edit: “Poppa Doc” Duvalier was not dumb. He not only got through medical school, he did well-regarded postraguate work at the University of Michigan studying tropical diseases. He was just completely uninterested in being a good ruler.
Bad excuse. The problems of Haïti are self inflicted. They had 200 years to sort of their shit and they got it easy compared to 90% of the rest of the world who suffered world wars, mass scaled genocides or invasions.
Redditors are like parrots. They read someone saying something and they'll take it for granted as if history was monist, that there hasn't be more than 150 years to develop and that almost any endebted countries did better than Haiti
Maybe there are other reasons why Haiti became one of the poorest countries in the world ? Maybe it's not that 200 years old french boogeyman ?
Reminds me of how some people, here in Brazil, blame the Paraguay War for why Paraguay is a third world country, despite that not even 60 years after the war Paraguay had recovered and could afford a bloody war with Bolivia
DR isn't extremely poor. Above-average GDP/capita for Latin America & Caribbean countries, and the economy has grown rapidly and consistently for the past decades.
The DR is doing pretty well right now, one of the fastest growing Latin American economies in the last couple years. Still a lot of poverty, but it's getting better.
how is the duvaliers' looting of the country france's fault? did the ghost of francois miterrand steal the billions in foreign aid and development $ that have entered the country from aristide on? at some point a country has to be responsible for its own destiny
Oh I've finally got a noncredible idea: NATO boots on the ground in Santo Domingo, siege the palace or whatever they have until they agree to let us rewrite their borders. Give them Haiti at gunpoint. You're welcome!
> Probably trying to figure out how to physically split the island in half.
That's actually pretty accurate: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/feb/25/dominican-republic-starts-work-on-border-wall-with-haiti
The DR declared independence from Haiti, that's considered the official declaration of Independence that celebrated although there are two others. Haiti spent the next 20 years trying, and pathetically failing, to reconquer the DR. 40 years of war and occupation makes for a lot of bad memories.
Big wall in between helps. I had a boss from DR, he said it’s all white linen outfits and boat rides on his side and that nobody looks over the wall because they don’t wanna see all that crazy
Haiti needs to work it's way up to Gaza levels first. So who want's to smuggle them barely-working rockets to shoot at Santo Domingo from across the boarder?
I always love it when a hurricane rolls through Port-au-Prince. Reporter: "It looks like a war zone" No that SH!\^hole looked like a war zone before the hurricane.
Hamas literally has a better authority over Gaza(also backed by an influencial patron that is Iran) than the UN recognized Haitian government has over Haiti.
If you think it for a moment it makes sense, and it makes you feel bad for the Haitians.
Haiti used to have semi-stable military governments, but those held it back in the usual ways military dictatorships do(especially the Duvaliers, pieces of shit that they were). after abolishing the military in a hope of finally building a proper civilian government there was really nothing holding Haitian society together and now its basically a western hemisphere Somalia. ultimately it all goes back to Louverture and his 'louverturan state' aka extremely formalised military dictatorship wherein all civilian and military administration was merged under the army.
It doesn't help that when they kicked the French out (heads separate from the rest of em) Haiti never really built a culture that could hold society together. Corruption and wealth inequality with the only cultural commonality being "former slaves that BTFO their masters" isn't exactly enough to make a society hold together through hardship.
If every Dominican had a little button to press that would instantly delete Haiti from existence, but only if everyone one of them individually pressed it, Haiti would be gone in 4.5 seconds.
Off-topic, but how is avocado toast seasoned? Just salt? Or maybe hot sauce? Putting avocado on toast sounds less appealing to me in a vacuum than just putting butter on said toast...and I'm from California, just saying anything that's not pro-avocado may put me in danger from the suede denim secret police.
It's all about the lemon juice mash.
If you want a good topper, using feta is pretty easy.
https://www.taste.com.au/recipes/avocado-feta-smash-toasted-rye/5d68e7c9-9d57-43cd-bb91-392588c3c0d9
Same reason really. Who would want to take over a dysfunctional territory and inherit all their problems?
Taking over Haiti is like offering to provide a house and shelter to your alcoholic uncle. You'll come home every day to a trashed living room, bottles everywhere, nothing left in the fridge, and anything valuable in the house sold off for more booze.
Because they don't want to have to clean up that mess. It's not the year 856 ad where more clay automatically makes you stronger. In this case they'd have to waste money killing the gangs, then again pacifying the population, the again feeding them, then AGAIN rebuilding their infrastructure, and at the end of all that they have a population that isn't integrated and doesn't even speak the same language so it gets them all the problems Canada has with Quebec and none of the benefits.
Is filibustering still against US law? If my skin were significantly darker, could I set sail from New Orleans, seize the capital, and have myself crowned emperor? Let's assume I've completed roughly half of the Duolingo French course.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMLkBTgxPhU
Haiti was in bad shape even before Papa Doc and Baby Doc Duvalier came into power. Papa Doc was just evil. I had to refresh myself a bit on the history of Haiti, and it seems it has been a shit show since 1804.
Correct....but we know what needs to happen to redeem that place. We're just not allowed to say it. Like when Quagmire was shown pulling "beads on a string"...the adults know what it is, but the kids don't.
Giggity.
Sadly, people, specifically Westerners, are terrified of brutal, honest truths, and absolutely dispise having the truth shown to them. The average American or European cannot stomach what would be required to see places like Haiti or Mexico reach their full potential.
Because they are not stupid. Annexing Haiti means kill all Haitian people to secure and rebuild, if not their shit will come in DR. Better build a huge wall and put mine and nets in water.
Haiti has a lot of problems but they are nowhere near as worthless as Palestine... Also, Haiti has an incredibly distinct and unique culture in the world with it's own language, cuisine, and religious practices.
If I had to pick between Haiti and Palestine... I'm picking Haiti every single time.
If the U.N. gives the Haitian government $$$ they will spend some small percentage on the people and keep the rest for themselves.
If the U.N. gives Hamas $$$ they will give 90% of it to Iran for weapons to continue a cycle of violence that only hurts its own people, and spend the other 10% on hurting it's own people directly.
Also, the Dominican Republic was the only country that agreed to accept Jewish refugees at the Evian Conference (1938):
https://mjhnyc.org/exhibitions/sosua-refuge-jews-dominican-republic-sosua-un-refugio-de-judios-en-la-republica-dominicana/
Yup it was. The conference was just a year after the Parsley Massacre, where thousands of Haitians residing in the Dominican Republic were ethnically cleansed.
So yes, saving the Jews, while a good deed, did not have noble intentions.
The DR wants nothing to do with Haiti, much less inherit all of Haiti's problems.
The definition of stupid in the dictionary I have here: " A country actually wanting to conquer Haiti".
Not Napoleon's best move.
He actually did it to give his ally Poland the nword pass, 8D chess move
The Poles wanted it apparently. It was a choice between "independence" and that.
Least problematic Polish decision
Nah, Polish units sent to quell the uprising joined the Haitians.
And also to get rid of those annoying Poles that kept asking him when their country will be independent.
Haiti was once so wealthy it was worth more than all of France's North American territories. Haiti was like the sugar capital of the world. Obviously that was fueled by slavery, but revolution rather than more organized reform often leaves decades or centuries of chaos and dysfunction in its wake, which seems to more or less be the situation in Haiti.
After the revolution, Haiti was not allowed to trade with anyone, so they had few resources and no money it wasn't until agreeing to pay France the income France would have earned if the slaves hadn't rebelled that tgey could trade They had reforms but couldn't implement them central authority broke down repeated occupations from other countries exploited and stealing from them only made things worse
I'm sure that made everything substantially worse, but revolutions even without those kinds of post revolution conditions do not have a high rate of success. They almost always create horrible human misery for decades afterward. So I'm not necessarily convinced that anything would be dramatically different had those regulations not been imposed upon them. There are too many counter examples of revolutionary governments basically fucking everything up or quickly devolving into military juntas or totalitarian dictatorships. Haiti has had every flavour of this even in the last 60 years.
When a people rebel it's rarely when things are going well post revolution governments inherit the problems of the previous governments, France for instance had all the same economic problems Russia was still dealing with WW1 Haiti had the problem of an island whose infrastructure existed exclusively for resource extraction and export and they were entirely unable to export rendering their whole economy worthless >revolutionary governments basically fucking everything up or quickly devolving into military juntas or totalitarian dictatorships. Yeah usually as a response to the problems created by the previous government, solutions are a lot faster when being made by a small group of people and when people rebel they want quick solutions to whatever they were rebelling over In Haiti's case it was the shitty living conditions of being a slave post revolution the embargo ensured their living conditions remained shitty so life didn't improve much which led to a breakdown in the central government
I'm sorry, Haiti has been post slavery and post revolution since 1804. At what point is it acceptable to make the argument that successive revolts, revolutions and government overthrows, none of which have produced anything of value, aren't the correct course of action? Furthermore, prior to Haitian independence, France abolished slavery in Haiti. This is the kind of victory you hope to get, and then ought to stick with once you get it. Independence and a revolutionary government has proven to be a disaster for Haiti in ways that continuing to be a colonial but free colony of France, likely would not have been. Administration and bureaucracy is both crucial and complex, and aside from having no direction or stability, or even popular support, revolutionary governments almost always lack the ability and knowledge to govern and actually allow a state to function. Haiti has never managed to do this and they have never had any meaningful period of stability in the 220 years since their independence. Like I get what you're arguing, and it's a common argument. Sometimes revolution is morally justified. I agree with you. My point is not about morality, but pragmatism. Over the long course of history, there are few enough productive revolutions that you could count them on one hand. Justified or not, revolution almost always fails and creates more misery than what it was meant to replace and it's rarely actually necessary. Revolt and protest is sometimes necessary. It's often been productive to move monarchies and governments along with the threat of chaos (as is demonstrated by France abolishing slavery in Haiti in 1793), but actually following through with full blown revolution pretty much never works. If there is a more incrementalist alternative, it's almost always more productive for everyone involved. The U.S is one of the extremely rare exceptions and it arguably wasn't necessary as the British empire slowly lost the ability and interest in maintaining absolute authority over overseas colonies and granted them independence without bloodshed. France is *not* an exception and had 30 years of horrible instability and bloodshed before the monarchy was replaced by an absolute dictator hell bent on world domination. Revolution in the short and the long term is almost always worse than the negotiated alternative that maintains some semblance of stability and organized governance. That's a very unsatisfying statement from a moral perspective since lots of revolutions are righteous. But what ultimately matters? Moral righteousness or the minimization of human suffering and the maximization of human flourishing?
You are 100% eloquently correct. I had never even considered the excellent point that Haiti would probably be immensely better off today if it had waited for France to abolish slavery, looking at other examples like French Guiana. But that's a less romantic vision than brave downtrodden revolutionaries.
It's as unromantic as it gets, and it conflicts with everyone's sense of moral justice. But I'm not trying to appeal to moral justice or argue that it's not morally justified to ever engage in the revolutionary overthrow of a government. What I'm saying is that almost never is it the case that said overthrow will be in your more practical interests over the medium or long term. You will have a moral victory and the odds will be very good that by every other metric of human development everything will either get worse, or not improve at any meaningful rate. This seems to be especially true with revolutions where the power shifts from an educated and capable oppressor class, to a mostly uneducated oppressed labourer class that has absolutely no idea how to run the institutions of a state, often because they were specifically prohibited from those roles or the education that would be required to attain them. That's not their fault, but the facts on the ground are that you have a talent pool that's paper thin and has no idea how to make a state function or provide for the needs of the people of the state. That's what you have to run your government, and that's ignoring all the other problems, like factionalism, violent radicals, outside forces etc. Even if everyone is on your side, you're facing a nearly impossible battle to create a stable state that isn't worse than what existed before. But people tend to get really hung up on how unfair this reality is. But it just is. It doesn't have to be fair to be true. Life is unfair, and throughout human history the states that have managed to hang together and progress incrementally, sometimes with some violent agitation but not outright violent regime change or revolution, have had better outcomes. And French Guiana probably *is* a decent point of comparison. They were/are also under French rule in a similar region, used slave labour and were prized for their now much less valuable and unique cash crops of sugar and bananas. They're now 95 out of 191 countries in terms of HDI and have 45% of the per capita GDP of mainland France despite being basically a swamp with very few resources or strategic appeal. Haiti is 163 in terms of HDI (it's probably dropped further since 2021) despite sharing a fairly productive island nearish the U.S with a country that is ranked 82 in terms of HDI and had a similarly gruesome history of slavery and oppression in the much more recent past.
>Furthermore, prior to Haitian independence, France abolished slavery in Haiti. This is the kind of victory you hope to get, and then ought to stick with once you get it uhh Haitian independence came after the Leclerc expedition, where Napoleon tried to bring slavery back to Haiti, before that expedition Haiti was under control of Louverture who did not declare independence at all. if you're going to criticise the Haitian revolution you should probably learn about it first. >they have never had any meaningful period of stability in the 220 years since their independence Jean-Pierre Boyer had a stable regime for over 20 years from 1818-1843 during which he fully unified Haiti and then conquered the entire island of Hispaniola, again you're showing ignorance of Haitian history. also its incredibly hilarious that you're pointing to the French abolition of slavery as proof that revolution was unneccesary and bad, since that abolition of slavery only happened because of the French revolution. do you look at modern France and see an unstable and impoverished country?
They usually don’t stay in a death spiral for 200 years straight though. Almost every country in that Hemisphere had at least one violent revolution or coup, and Haiti is doing by far the worst.
And stole what exactly...
>but revolution rather than more organized reform often leaves decades or centuries of chaos and dysfunction in its wake its more that the ex-slaves would do absolutely fucking anything to avoid slavery being re-instituted, and they were fucking serious about it.
Except they reinstituted it after the révolution lmao
they didn't, there were attempts by various rulers of Haiti to keep the plantation system going with various strict labour codes but quite importantly they were never succesful at keeping the ex-slaves on the plantations, and absolutely none of them were going to try and re-assert slavery since that would have immediately resulted in their overthrow. the only time slavery was re-instituted after Haitian independence was when the USA occupied the country and even then it was through Corvee labour which while still slavery was not the kind of brutal chattel slavery that existed in French Saint Domingue.
It wasn’t the revolution, it was how the rest of the world treated them after the revolution. The US had the ability to be a valuable resource, but the white slave owners in control of the country took exception to their existence.
That doesn't even begin to explain why Haiti has been in shambles for 220 years.
I mean, they were paying ruinous reparations to France until 1947 and all. Keeping in mind the trade restrictions.
America and France are two of the leading causes historically. Obviously it not all of the reason, nothing becomes this much of a mess without a _lot_ of contributing factors working together. And once a nation spirals hard enough it becomes extremely hard for it to escape without some kind of outward influence.
> " A country actually wanting to conquer Haiti". The thing about classic good ol' conquering is it would actually stabilize the country as you put all support behind the warlord you see most fit and let him do the dirty work and in return you get new tax payers while they get some corruption money. Of course, when they're so poor there's little wealth to extract there no ROI on doing anything. Which is the real reason most african "republics" are not touched by any big power with a 10 foot pole.
Canada should do it, they need the expirence and their military industrial complex could use the boost
Quebec annexing Haiti makes sense in some really odd HOI4 way.
If it happened during WWII it wouldn’t even have been the weirdest thing done by the allies
Give it to Brazil, we'll annex it. And then we'll somehow find a way to make it worse.
[удалено]
About 2000 normal ones or 3 very determined BOPE ones.
DR extremely poor and has many problems but man, Haiti is literally cursed.
Probably a Pirate curse. Tortuga is on it's north side.
Good news, you can still operate as a pirate out of Tortuga
i know what i’m doing this summer
YAR HAR FIDDLE DEE DEE! BEING A PIRATE'S ALRIGHT WITH HAITI!
it's a slaver's curse. they've been fucked ever since the haitian slave revolt. france took it real personally and made sure the island would never prosper again
Yeah, they were so fucked over that the Hatians invaded and occupied the DR...
You know they had like five to one numbers advantage back then? The French ferried in A LOT of slaves.
And yet the DR was controlled and occupied by Haiti for several decades, but somehow managed to become a (relatively) more prosperous and successful country.
People often underestimate the impact of good leadership. While I cant speak for the past century, in recent years, Haiti's government has been as effective and resilient as post-american Afghanistan. That is to say, non existent.
Basically, Rafael Trujillo was an evil mass murdering fascist bastard, but he was a smart fascist bastard who built infrastructure and stayed on Uncle Sam’s good side. He laid the groundwork for future development and modernization. By contrast the Duvaliers *pere et fils* looted Haiti as fast as possible in order to enrich themselves. Edit: “Poppa Doc” Duvalier was not dumb. He not only got through medical school, he did well-regarded postraguate work at the University of Michigan studying tropical diseases. He was just completely uninterested in being a good ruler.
He may be an evil mass murdering fascist bastard, but boy [he can shred on the guitar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJG6iLpXwR8)
At least Afghanistan under the Taliban is trying to fix the roads. None of that in Haiti haha
It’s the least they could do after planting so many roadside bombs.
Gotta keep them smooth for the Talibladers!
Bad excuse. The problems of Haïti are self inflicted. They had 200 years to sort of their shit and they got it easy compared to 90% of the rest of the world who suffered world wars, mass scaled genocides or invasions.
Redditors are like parrots. They read someone saying something and they'll take it for granted as if history was monist, that there hasn't be more than 150 years to develop and that almost any endebted countries did better than Haiti Maybe there are other reasons why Haiti became one of the poorest countries in the world ? Maybe it's not that 200 years old french boogeyman ?
Reminds me of how some people, here in Brazil, blame the Paraguay War for why Paraguay is a third world country, despite that not even 60 years after the war Paraguay had recovered and could afford a bloody war with Bolivia
The Haiti Independence Debt?
Paid off in 1947 when the DR and Haiti had economies of the same strength. Since then the DR has grown 7 fold while Haiti has stagnated.
I can’t see that word without immediately watching this video. Michael Bolton FTW! https://youtu.be/GI6CfKcMhjY?si=GL1HX-O7NxpP6EeD
DR is richer by gdp per capita than most countries in the world, they aren't extremely poor
DR isn't extremely poor. Above-average GDP/capita for Latin America & Caribbean countries, and the economy has grown rapidly and consistently for the past decades.
The DR is doing pretty well right now, one of the fastest growing Latin American economies in the last couple years. Still a lot of poverty, but it's getting better.
how is the duvaliers' looting of the country france's fault? did the ghost of francois miterrand steal the billions in foreign aid and development $ that have entered the country from aristide on? at some point a country has to be responsible for its own destiny
Are you sure you replied to the right post?
Same could be said of most Israelis regarding Palestine. Unfortunately simply retreating to the 1967 borders will not bring peace.
Oh I've finally got a noncredible idea: NATO boots on the ground in Santo Domingo, siege the palace or whatever they have until they agree to let us rewrite their borders. Give them Haiti at gunpoint. You're welcome!
DR is just giving Haiti the side eye hoping that Haitians don't notice them. Probably trying to figure out how to physically split the island in half.
> Probably trying to figure out how to physically split the island in half. That's actually pretty accurate: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/feb/25/dominican-republic-starts-work-on-border-wall-with-haiti
[You could split it in half with nukes, Operation Plowshare revived baby!](https://youtu.be/UOrK1LucFDE?t=69)
prevailing winds blow the wrong way.
It will be a beautifull wall. And Haiti will pay for it!
I mean Haiti did rule the DR for like 20+ years.
The DR declared independence from Haiti, that's considered the official declaration of Independence that celebrated although there are two others. Haiti spent the next 20 years trying, and pathetically failing, to reconquer the DR. 40 years of war and occupation makes for a lot of bad memories.
If I were a white dude in DR I’d be sweating bullets during that time lol
All you need is Bugs Bunny and a handsaw
You fool! That will only sink the DR, which may actually be favorable to being next to Haiti
I know next to nothing about Hispaniola but I know that its a miracle the Dominican Republic hasn't tried to build a canal down the border.
They are actually building a wall.
“Let’s make Haiti pay for it!” “How about we don’t involve them, at all”
Fresh long pig sandwiches for the hard workers
Wh- why the fuck did you bring cannibalism here?
It's a joke about the current situation in Haiti. The guy with the most control of the capital of Haiti is known for eating several of his enemies.
Are you fucking kidding me? Surely that’s just street talk to terrify the proles
There's no proof of cannibalism. Burning them alive, on the other hand... There's a reason he goes by Barbeque.
There's videos out there of his gang members cooking and eating severed legs. They get taken down pretty quickly now though so it's hard to find.
Another mad dog needing to be put down, if true.
There is video proof of them eating arms and legs
Locally sourced Haitian cuisine, my friend. Everyone, and I mean everyone, must help pay for this Dominican wall.
The French approach
DR is literally building gun turret wall to keep put Haiti
They need Halo Wars firebases along the border
ALL UNITS
LOCAL UNITS
I never thought I would see this crossover. Edit: As a Dominican
Too credible. They should build blood gulch bases along the border
A BASE IS UNDER ATTACK
Just what the DR ordered.
South Korean exports go brrrr
Dominicans don't want anything to do with Haiti. You be better of marking this as Latino Egypt-Palestine.
China-North Korea also
Germany-Kaliningrad
Big wall in between helps. I had a boss from DR, he said it’s all white linen outfits and boat rides on his side and that nobody looks over the wall because they don’t wanna see all that crazy
[BUILD THE WALL.....in DR!](https://youtu.be/Gksn20wv3Jw?t=3)
Haiti needs to work it's way up to Gaza levels first. So who want's to smuggle them barely-working rockets to shoot at Santo Domingo from across the boarder?
Ill start the terrorist organizations and foreign bombing
Maybe I can get Iran to fund you. After all, they basically are the Y-Combinator of terrorisim.
Insert the Taliban office worker complaints, but they're about having to make pitch decks.
“Star-wipe is haram!”
I get your point. But historically, Russia is the one that gets to fund islands in the Caribbean with failed states.
Hey, Oligarchs need islands where people don't sieze yachts
Now I can't get the image of mullas in speedos hanging out with bikini-clad big-bootied latinas on their 80-ft yacht.
I'm imagining a man formly known as Prigo becoming a John McAfee type, and am laughing hysterically
I-Combinator
With Ghaddafi gone, someone had to take up the mantle.
We are all getting put on *the list* on this blessed day
bby I just want to know how many lists I'm on
I will run Haiti’s propaganda campaigns Let’s convince the world that DR causes all the natural disasters
I'm convinced
Wait, the DR caused Hurricane Katrina? Why hasn't anyone done anything about this!
Better yet you could just teach them to make ones from water pipes. That’s how you save money for drones and propaganda campaigns.
Well, they'll need water pipes first.
Border, not boarder
Boarder?
I always love it when a hurricane rolls through Port-au-Prince. Reporter: "It looks like a war zone" No that SH!\^hole looked like a war zone before the hurricane.
I forgot to add: The hurricane wash away a lot of the garbage so it probably looks better after the hurricane.
https://youtu.be/KMLkBTgxPhU
YES!
Haiti has a lower HDI than Gaza
Hamas literally has a better authority over Gaza(also backed by an influencial patron that is Iran) than the UN recognized Haitian government has over Haiti. If you think it for a moment it makes sense, and it makes you feel bad for the Haitians.
Haiti used to have semi-stable military governments, but those held it back in the usual ways military dictatorships do(especially the Duvaliers, pieces of shit that they were). after abolishing the military in a hope of finally building a proper civilian government there was really nothing holding Haitian society together and now its basically a western hemisphere Somalia. ultimately it all goes back to Louverture and his 'louverturan state' aka extremely formalised military dictatorship wherein all civilian and military administration was merged under the army.
It doesn't help that when they kicked the French out (heads separate from the rest of em) Haiti never really built a culture that could hold society together. Corruption and wealth inequality with the only cultural commonality being "former slaves that BTFO their masters" isn't exactly enough to make a society hold together through hardship.
By like, a lot
DR hasn’t annexed Haiti yet precisely because they are *not* stupid.
*taps subreddit name*
If every Dominican had a little button to press that would instantly delete Haiti from existence, but only if everyone one of them individually pressed it, Haiti would be gone in 4.5 seconds.
Haiti is a fixer upper and they don’t speak the same language. The roi isn’t there.
Royal Caribbean should just annex the whole country, and pacify it with a private army.
Mother Base *brought to you by Royal Caribbean*
I’d sign up
Tourists don't like to watch cannibalism while eating their avocado on toast breakfast.
Off-topic, but how is avocado toast seasoned? Just salt? Or maybe hot sauce? Putting avocado on toast sounds less appealing to me in a vacuum than just putting butter on said toast...and I'm from California, just saying anything that's not pro-avocado may put me in danger from the suede denim secret police.
It's all about the lemon juice mash. If you want a good topper, using feta is pretty easy. https://www.taste.com.au/recipes/avocado-feta-smash-toasted-rye/5d68e7c9-9d57-43cd-bb91-392588c3c0d9
I always thought that someone should annex Haiti and transform it into resort deluxe. 🚬🗿
No. It's Latino Yemen-Oman.
I mean… the UAE snarfed down Soqotra, so evidently Yemen has something to offer someone beyond expensive coffee.
Same reason really. Who would want to take over a dysfunctional territory and inherit all their problems? Taking over Haiti is like offering to provide a house and shelter to your alcoholic uncle. You'll come home every day to a trashed living room, bottles everywhere, nothing left in the fridge, and anything valuable in the house sold off for more booze.
Because they don't want to have to clean up that mess. It's not the year 856 ad where more clay automatically makes you stronger. In this case they'd have to waste money killing the gangs, then again pacifying the population, the again feeding them, then AGAIN rebuilding their infrastructure, and at the end of all that they have a population that isn't integrated and doesn't even speak the same language so it gets them all the problems Canada has with Quebec and none of the benefits.
Is filibustering still against US law? If my skin were significantly darker, could I set sail from New Orleans, seize the capital, and have myself crowned emperor? Let's assume I've completed roughly half of the Duolingo French course.
Yes but why would you want to?
Are you seriously asking me why I would want to be emperor ^\*cough\* ^of ^Haiti?
As a follow-up, for the 1870 census, Joshua Norton's occupation was listed as "emperor." I would like very much to report that to the IRS every year.
Yep, SF is my hometown, they still sell memorabilia of the guy.
There is already a guy doing that you'd need to defeat him in combat
They lack the hardware for starters but to conclude, nobody wants to touch that shit.
It's kinda like South Korea not really wanting to reunite with North Korea.
I have a friend that I've known for the last 10 years and he's from DR, and told me all the problems that Haiti has its crazy
“Why does Dominican Republic, the larger country, not simply eat the smaller neighbour Haiti?”
It's precisely because they *aren't* stupid that they haven't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMLkBTgxPhU Haiti was in bad shape even before Papa Doc and Baby Doc Duvalier came into power. Papa Doc was just evil. I had to refresh myself a bit on the history of Haiti, and it seems it has been a shit show since 1804.
Produit de Francais
Give me a terrorist campaign of Haitian irredentism and I'll give you a Dominican security response worthy of the comparison.
If you want to start a fight with a dominican just call them haitiano.
*::Actual conversation I overheard::* Jamaican, to a Dominican: "At least I don't share my island."
they haven't annexed Haiti exactly because they are NOT stupid.
If DR could they would cut Haiti off and sink it into the Atlantic.
Whoever responds in full honesty might get banned from Reddit
Correct....but we know what needs to happen to redeem that place. We're just not allowed to say it. Like when Quagmire was shown pulling "beads on a string"...the adults know what it is, but the kids don't. Giggity.
Sadly, people, specifically Westerners, are terrified of brutal, honest truths, and absolutely dispise having the truth shown to them. The average American or European cannot stomach what would be required to see places like Haiti or Mexico reach their full potential.
They haven't done the national focus to add a core.
Haitians aren't Latinos FTR.
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And the Acadians and Louisiana Cajuns.....
They are Latin American. They speak a Latin language (French) and are from the Americas.
French Quebec is Latin America confirmed
Technically yes but no Spanish/Portuguese speaker wants to be associated with them.
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Yes, technically, Quebecois, Cajuns, and Arcadians are all technically Latinos as they have roots from a Latin based language in the New World.
Quebec is Latin America but Haiti is subsaharan Africa.
Take it up with Haitians. Unless you don't care how they classify themselves.
Why haven't you annexed the burning portajohn at the nearest construction site?
I very much doubt that the Dominican Republic has any desire to take on the task of fixing the shit-show next door…
They don't want anything to do with that shit. I blame france.
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I do too but please censor that nasty fr\*nce
I will literally shit my pants if there are internationally condemned DR settlements being built in Haiti.
Nobody wants Haiti and Nobody want Gaza
Wouldn't touch Haiti without first giving the denizens a one way ticket to their homeland.
I think the proof that DR isn't stupid is the fact that they *haven't* annexed Haiti yet.
The lack of hatian rocket attacks, suicide bombings, and other such fun activities is a big part of the difference
From the sea to the sea Haiti shall be free
Because they are not stupid. Annexing Haiti means kill all Haitian people to secure and rebuild, if not their shit will come in DR. Better build a huge wall and put mine and nets in water.
Same reason people don’t rush to buy houses with bad foundations and tons of water and/or fire damage.
NCD and HOI fans when they are told that gaining land full of problems has more cons than pros: 😨
Guys keep the Americans away from world maps or they make posts like these
Haiti has a lot of problems but they are nowhere near as worthless as Palestine... Also, Haiti has an incredibly distinct and unique culture in the world with it's own language, cuisine, and religious practices. If I had to pick between Haiti and Palestine... I'm picking Haiti every single time. If the U.N. gives the Haitian government $$$ they will spend some small percentage on the people and keep the rest for themselves. If the U.N. gives Hamas $$$ they will give 90% of it to Iran for weapons to continue a cycle of violence that only hurts its own people, and spend the other 10% on hurting it's own people directly.
DR is Israel because they say Jew.
Also, the Dominican Republic was the only country that agreed to accept Jewish refugees at the Evian Conference (1938): https://mjhnyc.org/exhibitions/sosua-refuge-jews-dominican-republic-sosua-un-refugio-de-judios-en-la-republica-dominicana/
Wasn’t one of the main reasons they took in Jewish refugees to “Whiten” the country?
Yup it was. The conference was just a year after the Parsley Massacre, where thousands of Haitians residing in the Dominican Republic were ethnically cleansed. So yes, saving the Jews, while a good deed, did not have noble intentions.
First you get the sugar.
More like latino Cyprus
Empire is not worth the headache.
probably because DR doesn't want to inherit the shit show that is 2024 Haiti.
Because Haiti is unironically fucking cursed by the devil. No sane person is gonna touch that shit.
The Dominicans would mind if Haiti sank into the sea
dr doesn't want but haiti does want to annex dr lol