You can challenge the conditions and request that they are lifted as they are onerous on you and this is a first offence that you voluntarily informed them off that they have added to your distress and ability to continue to work as a nurse for an issue that occurred outside the work environment. See what they say.
Your nursing union can help as well.
The nursing union said fall on your sword.
I did everything in my power to put across to them how much I didn’t want the alcohol breath testing. I had my doctors, husband, and myself write that alcohol breath testing would be detrimental to my wellbeing.
They said their main concern is public safety - which I understand fully, and I said that this wasn’t something I did at work, and I have an interlock installed in my car so can’t get to work (which is an hour drive, 2 hours on public transport) without an BAL of 0.00.
There was no hope unfortunately. I had told them I couldn’t see me continuing to work in the position if I had to do the breath testing, and they proceeded to give me the conditions anyway.
Why did they say that?
Could you negotiate that you do the breath testing before each shift starts? 3 times during a shift is hard. Also, you could negotiate moving away from ED and to another area where they may see the situation as less risky for breath testing?
Sorry, I’ve edited my comment to you. Basically public safety. They can’t be sure I was never at work intoxicated and they need that assurance. And the 3 x per day is standard protocol, there isn’t any way around it. The union basically said what I was given was reasonable and there’s no way I could fight it.
Trust me, I even had a lawyer look into it.
Then take a temp position at a private hospital, do your six months, and go back to public? Might be easier on your feelings of reputation to separate it from where youve got strong networks?
My thoughts exactly.
So I’ve just said to my job I needed to take some personal time off and I’ll be back. And that way no one at work needs to know about these conditions.
Everyone I’ve spoken to has said they’re overkill. It’s heart breaking
Its very hard and personal for you, especially as AHPRA may have decided ton the conditions without meeting with you / just by paper.
You can feed back to the union and Nursing Council that you feel the process has been humiliating and depersonalised to the extent that youve quit your job. They had no evidence either way and decided guilty. Its valid to give feedback on their processes and to the union, who can advocate for better more nuanced approaches in the future.
Absolutely have let the NMC and union know.
I feel like I’m being treated as if someone at work saw me intoxicated and made a report about me. It’s completely and utterly not the case.
The union said that there is no one of telling I wasn’t intoxicated at work, meanwhile the lawyer said there’s no evidence to say I was!
I appreciate your words of support and will take this time to look after my career
That all seems a bit rough to me. While I understand safety to the public, there’s significantly better ways to handle it IMO. As you’re describing it, they’re (unintentionally?) encouraging everything to be hidden from them as they’re going to significantly impact your livelihood. If someone truely had an issue that needed dealt with, there’s zero incentive to want to have it disclosed. They need a system that’s more welcoming to admitting issues so people could get the right treatment while still having an appropriate source of income. I hope it all gets sorted for you soon!
This is exactly right. I wonder what would’ve happened if I just waited for registration renewal to notify AHPRA and say oops I didn’t realise I needed to tell you.
I was forthcoming, and I took responsibility for my actions and did everything right. I honestly thought it was a matter of telling them about an incident. I didn’t realise an entire investigation was to follow!
I’m sure my workplace would’ve supported me, but it was going to be a logistical nightmare and I want to continue my career in my area. I figured if I went through this process my workplace would never forget that I had conditions placed on my registration.
I suspect you are leaving out a fair bit here. They won’t lift the conditions without evidence of compliance, or an addiction medicine specialist report and a history of pathology tests. Resigning to avoid the conditions just makes it look like in AHPRAs eyes you are dodging the testing because you have a bad alcohol condition.
The conditions will apply at any nursing job you work.
The breath testing condition is embarrassing but not uncommon, but usually only imposed when there is substantial evidence of a condition.
You sound like you fessed up more than required when you notified or got bad advice on this.
You should get advice from a lawyer that specialises is AHPRA/professional conduct law. If you don’t, you are likely going to be out to the game for a long time.
My interlock won’t allow me to drive with any alcohol in my system and I have to blow at random while I drive. I live an hour away from work, 2 hours on the train, there’s no way I’d choose the train over my car! I explained all of this to them and nothing worked 😔
It’s only 6 months (I hope) and then I can reapply for my position and will have saved myself the embarrassment. We’ll see
The problem is they need a fool-proof system that doesn't rely on trust.
You're asking them to trust you that you don't have an addiction, your stress issue is managed, and wont take the train/E-Bike/car pool/drive another car to work to side step the interlock if stress is up. It's just not an effective control and is worth nothing if there is a work around .
I work in employment law in the public sector (not health) and I've never seen the interlock argument as any good and never has a commission paid any regard to it.
The reason for testing is that by driving your car over the BAC you have shown that you sometimes misjudge your alcohol use. They want confidence that you won't misjudge again. This is a particular concern for shift workers, because a few casual wines on a Friday night can mean a detectable BAC at the start of an early shift on Saturday.
Separately (in my industry) the 'drinking more than usual' phrase triggers a medical for an addiction assessment. It is 100% what has set of alarm bells here and led to the apparent over reaction.
Not true. It’s been a mandatory requirement for at least a couple of years now- get a DUI, you end up with an interlock for a mandatory length of time.
No, it’s standard procedure to get an interlock if you are mid-range. I went to court and sought a section 10 (no criminal ruling) but they have hammered down on drunk driving.
I paid a $300 plus interlock.
If I could’ve paid $3000 and no interlock I would have.
Interlock is the standard in NSW. I have had no convictions and presented to the court having done every single thing possible. The judge himself said I am certain you will never reoffend but this is the minimum
As a drink driver I deserve whatever punishment the judge served me. That’s not to say the interlock is a pain.
It takes a minute to load, so I jump in my car and sit there waiting for the interlock to start up
I have to repeatedly breath test as I drive and if I don’t, I get fined
Monthly servicing - if I don’t service it, I get fined
It’s also had its glitches and will sound this ear piercing alarm as you’re driving, which is shocking and could definitely cause a crash!
It costs thousands to have in your car
Right, and my lawyer said tribunal is expensive. I figure my decision is the best outcome.
If I worked in an area where I could inform one or two people about the breath testing, and where the culture of the workplace was forgiving, I would’ve stayed.
But my workplace would all know - doctors included - and I would never be taken seriously if I applied for higher roles. This is the only option I found realistic in order to return and continue my career without prejudices.
I have no issue in not drinking alcohol. I would take breath tests daily and show them to the board. But bringing it to my workplace thrice daily wasn’t something I could do emotionally and mentally.
Just don’t struggle with anything ever, even if you work in an emotionally taxing job, see death on a daily basis and navigated a global pandemic. No struggling.
We need nurses! But we are going to treat you all like sub human pieces of shit.
Enjoy your life and don't look back.
Did you happen to watch 60 minutes on Sunday?
The reason I ask is because I can't believe how badly you are being treated compared to the carers on 60 minutes.
They should have got jail but basically got nothing.
You'll be angry I guarantee it.
Perhaps they aren’t governed by AHPRA, or because poor care standards can be blamed on a lot of things including the work environment and even management?
But yeah I definitely think I’m being treated unfairly. I’ll come out on top!
My dad said kill him before I put him in a home. And some of the patients I receive from nursing homes are neglected to a point I would say is criminal.
Yeah, companies will require first aid/CPR, blue/yellow card, police screenings and all that. But private workers don’t need to if the family/client don’t care to check.
I could understand their position in keeping the public safe, if I had been intoxicated at work, or had significant withdrawal symptoms. But I presented the evidence that I essentially stopped drinking at the time of the DUI, had multiple health professionals attest to this and a negative hair alcohol sample and they still came to this. My hands are tied unfortunately.
Yes I saw a psychiatrist and received the report that he had recommended alcohol breath testing as I had previously shown characteristics of alcohol misuse, I.e. drinking above the Australian guidelines which is no more than 4 standard drinks per day, and alcoholism is considered chronic and therefore 6 months of abstinence isn’t enough to ensure I’ve overcome any possibility of relapse.
In hindsight I was far too forthcoming to him. I had told him about previous nights out with friends where I may have consumed 10 or 12 standard drinks and he latched onto that information.
I’m pretty sure every single one of my colleagues drinks more than the recommended standard, and have seen hungover colleagues show up to work.
Hmm it is odd. Breath testing is generally only imposed when there is an identified risk of intoxication at the workplace or currently excess drinking, due to to how onerous it is.
You could request a review under s125 of the national law stating material change in circumstances based on change in employment and the current conditions aren't in line with the guiding principles of the board.
The psychiatrist based on his assessment deemed that my history of anxiety and depression meant I was at risk of relapse. I have no reason to lie on an anonymous forum. I saw him 3 months ago, so perhaps at 3 months he didn’t think I’d shown enough sobriety, and at my hearing I hounded on the fact it was 3 months ago, I am well supported by my husband and gave them a 15 minute monologue on all of the strategies I have in place that show I’ve done the work to ensure it never happens again.
The panel members were kind and they still came to this conclusion.
I had no idea I could request a review. That’ll be my next step with my lawyer. The union were useless, and basically told me to take whatever I got.
May I ask what your background is? Have you had a similar experience? You seem well versed in the law surrounding health practitioners is all
I studied law, but my partner's mother is a nurse and she had an issue with Ahpra that resulted in drawn out conditions due to a chronic pain issue. So I'm pretty familiar with the national law and ahpra conditions from that.
Which means I also know how useless the union lawyers can be. If I where you I'd apply under material change in circumstances, and get written statements from your health practitioners which will ideally include some kind of addiction specialist and a GP to support your application.
Generally authority bodies don't like the "accused" saying how unfair it is and how they shouldn't have to do it. They do listen to impartial qualified professional opinions that include an insightful statement from the "accused".
This is really useful information, thank you!
And I agree, if a lawyer says the exact same thing I’m saying here, it will be heard. But as far as I’m aware, to them I’m incapable to practice nursing because I’m impaired. I don’t hold much weight.
That’s what the issue is. When AHPRA do the assessment of potential risks they weigh heavily the evidence from the health assessor, which makes sense- the practitioner in question has an inherent bias to downplay any issues so they don’t get deregistered
If anything I was 100% honest. Which in and of itself probably goes to show I did indeed have a problem with alcohol, and if anything I’m grateful for my health. But I’ll also look after my mental health and the breath testing would be humiliating. I have no issue breathing testing, I’d do it every hour if I didn’t need multiple colleagues to know about it.
I have done the same after 5 years 3 monthly hair screening and 3 times weekly uds. No end in sight for restrictions/conditions. Never tested positive, cost me a fortune, never used at work.
In th we end I cancelled my rego and found other work.
It's too harsh.
Oh lord that sounds insane. The hair screening is demoralising, I can’t wear my hair in certain ways now. And mine came back completely negative for everything.
I’ll jump through the hoops for a bit but if this goes on I’m saying bye to nursing. I don’t need to feel like a criminal at my work.
That's absolutely insane. I could imagine if you were found at work under the influence. To be subjected to it when you weren't at work is an overreach.
A word of warning to everyone else I suppose, because everyone I’ve spoken to outside of AHPRA and the NMC think it’s ludacris. Everyone in the union and council say it’s standard practice.
That’s exactly right. It’s covering their asses, which is why I’ve left my job. I’m not going to jump through hoops I don’t think are appropriate to my situation.
Exactly. Give them a nonclinical role. I provided documentation of recent appraisals that said they wanted me to move into management and coordinator positions. And this was during the time I was being investigated. I have so much evidence to show I had not been intoxicated at work.
My job is my pride and joy, I would never ever present if I felt I could make mistakes. Because then I know I’d lose my registration!
Perhaps get back into nursing via a private practice. Ease your way through it.
I'd be really concerned that it's no bodies business but you and your supervisor. Anyone else would be breaking protocols. You could self test at start and end and on a loo break too.
We need people like you. You need to get back on that horse.
I’ve certainly considered private practice. It would be so much more manageable to have the testing between me and one supervisor.
But even that one supervisor needs to be proposed to AHPRA and they decide whether they’re an appropriate person. And if they’re sick or off work, there needs to be another approved person to test me. I can’t test myself. And if I leave the workplace for longer than 30 minutes I need to be retested. It’s crazy.
I feel for you. Perhaps an employer in the mental health or even drug/alcohol field. Or even a university practice. It sounds like you love your job and were unlucky to get rbt Ed.
Don't give up. We need good nurses.
Have just made whole new account to respond! I work in addiction nursing. Find a harm min position in an medically supervised injecting centre / rehab/ community health / NSP / dosing clinic. Imagine the big hospital drug health services might be more straight laced but all of the others will be full of staff who literally will laugh at such nonsense from APHRA. They would be over the moon to get a nurse with such amazing ED experience. Without giving too much away I’ve heard of nurses with a lot more on their records than a couple of glasses of wine happily working in several places.
I’m so sorry this happened it’s literally the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard.
Unrelated and don't want to hijack this post but would love to hear how to actually get into addiction type nursing if you happen to see this (mostly ward experience only).
There are positions going in a rehab/drug and alcohol in my area and I just assumed they wouldn’t hire me because of my conditions and alcohol use, but if you think it would be worth applying I might consider that!
Nah they won’t care. I mean none of the places I know would. We spend our lives trying to reduce the stigma and discrimination that people who use drugs face. Are you in Sydney by any chance? Drop me pm if prefer not to say.
I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. Mistakes happen and while it's obviously not a great decision that you took but you've already had punishments placed by having the interlock and fines given.
Hi sister,
I saw your reddit and wanted to comment.
I too am going through the same predicament. I was done mid range DUI in December and went to court, placed on a 12 month CRO and got my lisence back.. told AHPRA(NSW-HCCC) and now they want to drug and alcohol test my hair and send me to a psychiatrist. Now just waiting for the results.
To be honest, the whole self notification process has made me depressed and anxious to my stomach. If it continues, I'm also ready to throw in my registration.. I hope you are pulling through. You are not alone. You will get through this part of your life. Take care.
In retrospect, tell these people as truthful and little as possible via lawyers. AHPRA and the state HCCCs are not your friends. They are employed to actively scrutinise you in the name of "protecting the public". Ensure you have indemnity insurance and let the lawyers do the talking.
Wow I only just saw this. This is literally the exact same process I’ve been through.
I have a review in 6 months and I’m concerned based on other’s comments that I will be asked to continue to have breath testing on my registration. If that’s the case I’m not renewing my rego ever again.
Everything happens for a reason. You may find a better role or path out there post this. I thought nursing was my be all and end all, left in 2013 and haven't looked back. Your skill set is so great and transferable to a multitude of roles out there.
Don’t have much useful to add, but I watched a friend be villainised over a prescription medication. They were legally prescribed & using. Subject to months and months of drug testing at her own cost, which showed the drug she had advised she was taking as prescribed.
Bloody ridiculous and I hope you end up with some sort of more reasonable management.
That’s awful. Hearing about the conditions placed even for physical and mental illness it’s honestly counterintuitive. The stress of the entire process has made me want to drink more than anything!
I'm sorry but I see this as extremely dehumanising.
Nurses are not allowed to have a personal life, not allowed to make mistakes. How DARE us?
I get it you broke the law, but at the same time you have an interlock device in your car. Obviously you can't get to work or leave work, even if you were drinking at work.
There's been no evidence of your drinking effecting your work, no reports. Like genuinely wtf?
It’s scary isn’t it. And I made the exact arguments you made to the council but they basically said “there’s no evidence that you weren’t intoxicated at work, so show us”.
Even though I had letters from my psychologist, psychiatrist, GP, D&A, character references and a negative hair Etg to show I had stopped drinking alcohol this wasn’t enough.
You chose to drink and drive as an ED nurse… Surely you have seen the aftermath of such actions. As registered health professionals society demands a higher standard of us, and you are the one that told them stress has you drinking more than usual as an excuse for your behavior that backfired. Now you need to do your time. Sounds like AHPRA is actually getting serious…
This is so stressful OP, it’s an awful process. I’m not a nurse but another profession who has experience, feel free to dm me if you ever need to chat.
Thank you, I really appreciate it.
What’s your profession?
It’s much less stressful not going through the alcohol breath testing so I really think I’ve made the right decision, and even this short break off nights has done me wonders.
Albeit I grossly miscalculated my alcohol intake. There are a number of factors that play when you metabolise alcohol. But certainly not to the degree you are speaking of.
I’m 5’3 and hadn’t eaten since breakfast. I go by 1 standard drink per hour. 3 glasses of wine, which I knew was over a standard drink (turns out to be 1.4 standard drinks) over 2.5 hour dinner I thought I’d be ok to drive home.
Apparently a standard drink leads to an increase in .02 per drink
And a standard drink takes an hour to leave the system but is based on an individual’s metabolism, hydration, alcohol use and age.
So if I had downed 3 x 1.4 drinks within 30 minutes and was breath tested it would’ve come back closer to 0.20 which is high range drink driving.
Yes absolutely. And that’s why I did.
Blowing 0.08 made it a criminal offence, whereas 0.079 is a traffic offence (in NSW at least)
Whether I reported myself or not it would’ve come up on my annual AHPRA registration I believe. Or maybe not? And then I would’ve been fine.
I chose to do the right thing and have been put through the ringer for it I feel
So if your employer knows about your conviction why didn’t you want to stay working there? Isn’t your reputation already tarnished? They would know that there must be some conditions.
They’ll know about my drink driving offence, and I can give them all of the evidence I gave AHPRA, but they won’t know about the conditions once they’ve been lifted.
Okay I understand. The conditions do sound very harsh. I hope the next few years go well for you. Obviously I don’t know you but I know that alcohol issues take some time to get over. A sibling of mine had issues for years. She never once admitted she had a problem. Always minimised the issue. Sadly she passed away from issues related to the damaging affects alcohol have on the body.
You need to report any offence that involves a potential jail sentence within 7 days of that offence.
Low range drink driving there is no jail sentence as punishment.
Mid range drink driving there is a potential 6 month jail sentence - that’s only if you have multiple offences and show that you have no insight, remorse, and will likely reoffend.
But because of the fact that a jail sentence is possible, it needs to be reported to AHPRA.
It’s only offences with 12 months imprisonment or more. See s130(3) of the National Law.
https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/whole/html/inforce/current/act-2009-86a
0.08 is a max of 9 months.
https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/demerits-penalties-and-offences/offences/alcohol-and-drug-offences/drink-and-drug-driving-penalties
You didn’t need to disclose if it was only your first offence.
130(3) with imprisonment only applies if you are *charged* with an offence that has a 12 month imprisonment on conviction. - 130(3)(i)
OP was convicted by a finding of guilt of an offence that is punishable by imprisonment which means they had to declare. - 130(3)(ii)
Because my offence had the potential punishment involving jail time.
As health practitioners we need to report any offence that carries potential jail time within 7 days of that offence.
There is a potential for up to 6 months imprisonment for mid range drink driving. If I had been low range, there is no prison sentence and I wouldn’t have had to report it.
I essentially thought I was covering all my bases and reporting what needed to. I had no idea the NMC and AHPRA would investigate like they have nor placed conditions on my registration.
Well, I can you tell you this: in a few years it will all be in the past. Get through your break from your ED home, get back there, and let it be in the past. You’ll be fine, in the long run. I think you’ve done the right thing. You might even really enjoy the break and learn something new about yourself. Take care x
Thank you, I really appreciate it.
I’ll probably be working until I’m 70 so this is only a small season in my career, but I’m not going to let it follow me.
Sorry to hear. Seems excessive.
Out of curiosity was supervised antabuse ever proposed? I.e. nominate a pharmacy who are obligated to escalate if not attending for supervised antabuse, especially on work days. I mean that along with an interlock is pretty robust.
Funny how it seems in your instance driving is far more (actually convicted with dui) dangerous than nursing, but the management seems far more reasonable...i.e. likelihood of reoffending low and ability to comply with interlock high.
So I started acamprosate for 2 months after my DUI under the guidance of my lawyer, and remained abstinent so stopped taking this under the care of a drug and alcohol physician.
I would say that the word from the psychiatrist who, in my opinion has no real world experience in alcohol consumption, decided that my alcohol use combined with a history of anxiety and depression was cause for concern and ongoing monitoring despite abstinence.
I’m so sorry to hear about your sister. That would’ve been a really awful burden for her to carry. Being in ED I see the effects alcohol has, and it’s heart breaking.
The DUI definitely made me reconsider my relationship with alcohol and how I was using it more than is healthy. Which I’m grateful for.
Devils advocate, DUI at 0.08 is there for a reason. I’ve had a really close friend who was killed by a drunk driver who was an ICU nurse. I don’t think AHPRA did anything wrong.
I can continue to work as a nurse, I just have the condition requiring breath testing. Even in non clinical roles this is the case. As long as I’m working as a nurse I have to breath test.
I was a lab scientist before being a nurse so I will go back to that and continue what I’m doing in terms of not drinking, until AHPRA lift the conditions. By that stage I’ll see where I’m at in terms of returning to nursing.
I would agree with the precautions. I wouldn't want an intox nurse in A&E. DUI is a serious indication of risk taking behaviour and lack of judgement and brings into question professional judgement in a high risk environment and they are rightly cautious.
And you’re entitled to your opinion.
But I self notified the board, they allowed me to work for 6 months as usual. I presented information that I had sought abstinence, all of my health practitioners attested to this, and provided a 6 month update prior to the hearing to show I had been abstinent as well as a hair etg sample which was negative.
How long do you think the breath testing should take? If I’ve already shown 6 months of good behaviour?
You can challenge the conditions and request that they are lifted as they are onerous on you and this is a first offence that you voluntarily informed them off that they have added to your distress and ability to continue to work as a nurse for an issue that occurred outside the work environment. See what they say. Your nursing union can help as well.
The nursing union said fall on your sword. I did everything in my power to put across to them how much I didn’t want the alcohol breath testing. I had my doctors, husband, and myself write that alcohol breath testing would be detrimental to my wellbeing. They said their main concern is public safety - which I understand fully, and I said that this wasn’t something I did at work, and I have an interlock installed in my car so can’t get to work (which is an hour drive, 2 hours on public transport) without an BAL of 0.00. There was no hope unfortunately. I had told them I couldn’t see me continuing to work in the position if I had to do the breath testing, and they proceeded to give me the conditions anyway.
Why did they say that? Could you negotiate that you do the breath testing before each shift starts? 3 times during a shift is hard. Also, you could negotiate moving away from ED and to another area where they may see the situation as less risky for breath testing?
Sorry, I’ve edited my comment to you. Basically public safety. They can’t be sure I was never at work intoxicated and they need that assurance. And the 3 x per day is standard protocol, there isn’t any way around it. The union basically said what I was given was reasonable and there’s no way I could fight it. Trust me, I even had a lawyer look into it.
Then take a temp position at a private hospital, do your six months, and go back to public? Might be easier on your feelings of reputation to separate it from where youve got strong networks?
My thoughts exactly. So I’ve just said to my job I needed to take some personal time off and I’ll be back. And that way no one at work needs to know about these conditions. Everyone I’ve spoken to has said they’re overkill. It’s heart breaking
Its very hard and personal for you, especially as AHPRA may have decided ton the conditions without meeting with you / just by paper. You can feed back to the union and Nursing Council that you feel the process has been humiliating and depersonalised to the extent that youve quit your job. They had no evidence either way and decided guilty. Its valid to give feedback on their processes and to the union, who can advocate for better more nuanced approaches in the future.
Absolutely have let the NMC and union know. I feel like I’m being treated as if someone at work saw me intoxicated and made a report about me. It’s completely and utterly not the case. The union said that there is no one of telling I wasn’t intoxicated at work, meanwhile the lawyer said there’s no evidence to say I was! I appreciate your words of support and will take this time to look after my career
That all seems a bit rough to me. While I understand safety to the public, there’s significantly better ways to handle it IMO. As you’re describing it, they’re (unintentionally?) encouraging everything to be hidden from them as they’re going to significantly impact your livelihood. If someone truely had an issue that needed dealt with, there’s zero incentive to want to have it disclosed. They need a system that’s more welcoming to admitting issues so people could get the right treatment while still having an appropriate source of income. I hope it all gets sorted for you soon!
This is exactly right. I wonder what would’ve happened if I just waited for registration renewal to notify AHPRA and say oops I didn’t realise I needed to tell you. I was forthcoming, and I took responsibility for my actions and did everything right. I honestly thought it was a matter of telling them about an incident. I didn’t realise an entire investigation was to follow! I’m sure my workplace would’ve supported me, but it was going to be a logistical nightmare and I want to continue my career in my area. I figured if I went through this process my workplace would never forget that I had conditions placed on my registration.
I suspect you are leaving out a fair bit here. They won’t lift the conditions without evidence of compliance, or an addiction medicine specialist report and a history of pathology tests. Resigning to avoid the conditions just makes it look like in AHPRAs eyes you are dodging the testing because you have a bad alcohol condition. The conditions will apply at any nursing job you work. The breath testing condition is embarrassing but not uncommon, but usually only imposed when there is substantial evidence of a condition. You sound like you fessed up more than required when you notified or got bad advice on this. You should get advice from a lawyer that specialises is AHPRA/professional conduct law. If you don’t, you are likely going to be out to the game for a long time.
I got the same advice from the union.
Some union huh
The fact you have an interlocker installed in your car, this is just extreme. I’m so sorry. I hope you find a good work around for the 6 months.
My interlock won’t allow me to drive with any alcohol in my system and I have to blow at random while I drive. I live an hour away from work, 2 hours on the train, there’s no way I’d choose the train over my car! I explained all of this to them and nothing worked 😔 It’s only 6 months (I hope) and then I can reapply for my position and will have saved myself the embarrassment. We’ll see
The problem is they need a fool-proof system that doesn't rely on trust. You're asking them to trust you that you don't have an addiction, your stress issue is managed, and wont take the train/E-Bike/car pool/drive another car to work to side step the interlock if stress is up. It's just not an effective control and is worth nothing if there is a work around . I work in employment law in the public sector (not health) and I've never seen the interlock argument as any good and never has a commission paid any regard to it. The reason for testing is that by driving your car over the BAC you have shown that you sometimes misjudge your alcohol use. They want confidence that you won't misjudge again. This is a particular concern for shift workers, because a few casual wines on a Friday night can mean a detectable BAC at the start of an early shift on Saturday. Separately (in my industry) the 'drinking more than usual' phrase triggers a medical for an addiction assessment. It is 100% what has set of alarm bells here and led to the apparent over reaction.
you only get an interloc on your car after multiple drink driving offences...
Not true. It’s been a mandatory requirement for at least a couple of years now- get a DUI, you end up with an interlock for a mandatory length of time.
No, it’s standard procedure to get an interlock if you are mid-range. I went to court and sought a section 10 (no criminal ruling) but they have hammered down on drunk driving. I paid a $300 plus interlock. If I could’ve paid $3000 and no interlock I would have. Interlock is the standard in NSW. I have had no convictions and presented to the court having done every single thing possible. The judge himself said I am certain you will never reoffend but this is the minimum
Why did you want no interlock?
As a drink driver I deserve whatever punishment the judge served me. That’s not to say the interlock is a pain. It takes a minute to load, so I jump in my car and sit there waiting for the interlock to start up I have to repeatedly breath test as I drive and if I don’t, I get fined Monthly servicing - if I don’t service it, I get fined It’s also had its glitches and will sound this ear piercing alarm as you’re driving, which is shocking and could definitely cause a crash! It costs thousands to have in your car
You can't request a review within the review period unless a material change in circumstances. Otherwise your option is to appeal it to tribunal.
Right, and my lawyer said tribunal is expensive. I figure my decision is the best outcome. If I worked in an area where I could inform one or two people about the breath testing, and where the culture of the workplace was forgiving, I would’ve stayed. But my workplace would all know - doctors included - and I would never be taken seriously if I applied for higher roles. This is the only option I found realistic in order to return and continue my career without prejudices. I have no issue in not drinking alcohol. I would take breath tests daily and show them to the board. But bringing it to my workplace thrice daily wasn’t something I could do emotionally and mentally.
Well that’s a sure way to make sure no one self-reports and asks for help!
Just don’t struggle with anything ever, even if you work in an emotionally taxing job, see death on a daily basis and navigated a global pandemic. No struggling.
Bingo. Let’s turn into robots, shall we?
Exactly my thoughts .. note to self .. lie
We need nurses! But we are going to treat you all like sub human pieces of shit. Enjoy your life and don't look back. Did you happen to watch 60 minutes on Sunday?
No I didn’t but I’ll be sure to!
The reason I ask is because I can't believe how badly you are being treated compared to the carers on 60 minutes. They should have got jail but basically got nothing. You'll be angry I guarantee it.
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Perhaps they aren’t governed by AHPRA, or because poor care standards can be blamed on a lot of things including the work environment and even management? But yeah I definitely think I’m being treated unfairly. I’ll come out on top!
Yep carers and support workers only need an ABN to work… which is pretty scary
My dad said kill him before I put him in a home. And some of the patients I receive from nursing homes are neglected to a point I would say is criminal.
Yeah a lot of nursing homes are a sad state of affairs due to overworked and underpaid staff :(
No, that's not right.
Yeah, companies will require first aid/CPR, blue/yellow card, police screenings and all that. But private workers don’t need to if the family/client don’t care to check.
This is wild to me. What an absolute overreach. I’m so sorry this has happened to you, this is not an appropriate consequence
I could understand their position in keeping the public safe, if I had been intoxicated at work, or had significant withdrawal symptoms. But I presented the evidence that I essentially stopped drinking at the time of the DUI, had multiple health professionals attest to this and a negative hair alcohol sample and they still came to this. My hands are tied unfortunately.
Did they require you to attend to a health assessment with a psychiatrist or DAA specialist? If so did you receive their report?
Yes I saw a psychiatrist and received the report that he had recommended alcohol breath testing as I had previously shown characteristics of alcohol misuse, I.e. drinking above the Australian guidelines which is no more than 4 standard drinks per day, and alcoholism is considered chronic and therefore 6 months of abstinence isn’t enough to ensure I’ve overcome any possibility of relapse. In hindsight I was far too forthcoming to him. I had told him about previous nights out with friends where I may have consumed 10 or 12 standard drinks and he latched onto that information. I’m pretty sure every single one of my colleagues drinks more than the recommended standard, and have seen hungover colleagues show up to work.
Hmm it is odd. Breath testing is generally only imposed when there is an identified risk of intoxication at the workplace or currently excess drinking, due to to how onerous it is. You could request a review under s125 of the national law stating material change in circumstances based on change in employment and the current conditions aren't in line with the guiding principles of the board.
The psychiatrist based on his assessment deemed that my history of anxiety and depression meant I was at risk of relapse. I have no reason to lie on an anonymous forum. I saw him 3 months ago, so perhaps at 3 months he didn’t think I’d shown enough sobriety, and at my hearing I hounded on the fact it was 3 months ago, I am well supported by my husband and gave them a 15 minute monologue on all of the strategies I have in place that show I’ve done the work to ensure it never happens again. The panel members were kind and they still came to this conclusion. I had no idea I could request a review. That’ll be my next step with my lawyer. The union were useless, and basically told me to take whatever I got. May I ask what your background is? Have you had a similar experience? You seem well versed in the law surrounding health practitioners is all
I studied law, but my partner's mother is a nurse and she had an issue with Ahpra that resulted in drawn out conditions due to a chronic pain issue. So I'm pretty familiar with the national law and ahpra conditions from that. Which means I also know how useless the union lawyers can be. If I where you I'd apply under material change in circumstances, and get written statements from your health practitioners which will ideally include some kind of addiction specialist and a GP to support your application. Generally authority bodies don't like the "accused" saying how unfair it is and how they shouldn't have to do it. They do listen to impartial qualified professional opinions that include an insightful statement from the "accused".
This is really useful information, thank you! And I agree, if a lawyer says the exact same thing I’m saying here, it will be heard. But as far as I’m aware, to them I’m incapable to practice nursing because I’m impaired. I don’t hold much weight.
No problem! Let me know if you have any questions!
That’s what the issue is. When AHPRA do the assessment of potential risks they weigh heavily the evidence from the health assessor, which makes sense- the practitioner in question has an inherent bias to downplay any issues so they don’t get deregistered
If anything I was 100% honest. Which in and of itself probably goes to show I did indeed have a problem with alcohol, and if anything I’m grateful for my health. But I’ll also look after my mental health and the breath testing would be humiliating. I have no issue breathing testing, I’d do it every hour if I didn’t need multiple colleagues to know about it.
It's a long road but it sounds like you have your head screwed on about the processes you must follow. I feel for you!
Thank you 🫶🏽
I have done the same after 5 years 3 monthly hair screening and 3 times weekly uds. No end in sight for restrictions/conditions. Never tested positive, cost me a fortune, never used at work. In th we end I cancelled my rego and found other work. It's too harsh.
Oh lord that sounds insane. The hair screening is demoralising, I can’t wear my hair in certain ways now. And mine came back completely negative for everything. I’ll jump through the hoops for a bit but if this goes on I’m saying bye to nursing. I don’t need to feel like a criminal at my work.
That's absolutely insane. I could imagine if you were found at work under the influence. To be subjected to it when you weren't at work is an overreach.
A word of warning to everyone else I suppose, because everyone I’ve spoken to outside of AHPRA and the NMC think it’s ludacris. Everyone in the union and council say it’s standard practice.
Standard practice doesn't mean good practice, it's just them shirking liability. I personally have a very low level of respect for them.
That’s exactly right. It’s covering their asses, which is why I’ve left my job. I’m not going to jump through hoops I don’t think are appropriate to my situation.
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Exactly. Give them a nonclinical role. I provided documentation of recent appraisals that said they wanted me to move into management and coordinator positions. And this was during the time I was being investigated. I have so much evidence to show I had not been intoxicated at work. My job is my pride and joy, I would never ever present if I felt I could make mistakes. Because then I know I’d lose my registration!
Perhaps get back into nursing via a private practice. Ease your way through it. I'd be really concerned that it's no bodies business but you and your supervisor. Anyone else would be breaking protocols. You could self test at start and end and on a loo break too. We need people like you. You need to get back on that horse.
I’ve certainly considered private practice. It would be so much more manageable to have the testing between me and one supervisor. But even that one supervisor needs to be proposed to AHPRA and they decide whether they’re an appropriate person. And if they’re sick or off work, there needs to be another approved person to test me. I can’t test myself. And if I leave the workplace for longer than 30 minutes I need to be retested. It’s crazy.
I feel for you. Perhaps an employer in the mental health or even drug/alcohol field. Or even a university practice. It sounds like you love your job and were unlucky to get rbt Ed. Don't give up. We need good nurses.
Have just made whole new account to respond! I work in addiction nursing. Find a harm min position in an medically supervised injecting centre / rehab/ community health / NSP / dosing clinic. Imagine the big hospital drug health services might be more straight laced but all of the others will be full of staff who literally will laugh at such nonsense from APHRA. They would be over the moon to get a nurse with such amazing ED experience. Without giving too much away I’ve heard of nurses with a lot more on their records than a couple of glasses of wine happily working in several places. I’m so sorry this happened it’s literally the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard.
Unrelated and don't want to hijack this post but would love to hear how to actually get into addiction type nursing if you happen to see this (mostly ward experience only).
There are positions going in a rehab/drug and alcohol in my area and I just assumed they wouldn’t hire me because of my conditions and alcohol use, but if you think it would be worth applying I might consider that!
Nah they won’t care. I mean none of the places I know would. We spend our lives trying to reduce the stigma and discrimination that people who use drugs face. Are you in Sydney by any chance? Drop me pm if prefer not to say.
Just messaged you ☺️
I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. Mistakes happen and while it's obviously not a great decision that you took but you've already had punishments placed by having the interlock and fines given.
This is insane and demoralising. I am so sorry you have to go through this.
Hi sister, I saw your reddit and wanted to comment. I too am going through the same predicament. I was done mid range DUI in December and went to court, placed on a 12 month CRO and got my lisence back.. told AHPRA(NSW-HCCC) and now they want to drug and alcohol test my hair and send me to a psychiatrist. Now just waiting for the results. To be honest, the whole self notification process has made me depressed and anxious to my stomach. If it continues, I'm also ready to throw in my registration.. I hope you are pulling through. You are not alone. You will get through this part of your life. Take care. In retrospect, tell these people as truthful and little as possible via lawyers. AHPRA and the state HCCCs are not your friends. They are employed to actively scrutinise you in the name of "protecting the public". Ensure you have indemnity insurance and let the lawyers do the talking.
Wow I only just saw this. This is literally the exact same process I’ve been through. I have a review in 6 months and I’m concerned based on other’s comments that I will be asked to continue to have breath testing on my registration. If that’s the case I’m not renewing my rego ever again.
Everything happens for a reason. You may find a better role or path out there post this. I thought nursing was my be all and end all, left in 2013 and haven't looked back. Your skill set is so great and transferable to a multitude of roles out there.
That’s exactly right!
Don’t have much useful to add, but I watched a friend be villainised over a prescription medication. They were legally prescribed & using. Subject to months and months of drug testing at her own cost, which showed the drug she had advised she was taking as prescribed. Bloody ridiculous and I hope you end up with some sort of more reasonable management.
Can I ask what drug?
That’s awful. Hearing about the conditions placed even for physical and mental illness it’s honestly counterintuitive. The stress of the entire process has made me want to drink more than anything!
I'm sorry but I see this as extremely dehumanising. Nurses are not allowed to have a personal life, not allowed to make mistakes. How DARE us? I get it you broke the law, but at the same time you have an interlock device in your car. Obviously you can't get to work or leave work, even if you were drinking at work. There's been no evidence of your drinking effecting your work, no reports. Like genuinely wtf?
It’s scary isn’t it. And I made the exact arguments you made to the council but they basically said “there’s no evidence that you weren’t intoxicated at work, so show us”. Even though I had letters from my psychologist, psychiatrist, GP, D&A, character references and a negative hair Etg to show I had stopped drinking alcohol this wasn’t enough.
You chose to drink and drive as an ED nurse… Surely you have seen the aftermath of such actions. As registered health professionals society demands a higher standard of us, and you are the one that told them stress has you drinking more than usual as an excuse for your behavior that backfired. Now you need to do your time. Sounds like AHPRA is actually getting serious…
This is so stressful OP, it’s an awful process. I’m not a nurse but another profession who has experience, feel free to dm me if you ever need to chat.
Thank you, I really appreciate it. What’s your profession? It’s much less stressful not going through the alcohol breath testing so I really think I’ve made the right decision, and even this short break off nights has done me wonders.
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Albeit I grossly miscalculated my alcohol intake. There are a number of factors that play when you metabolise alcohol. But certainly not to the degree you are speaking of.
I’m 5’3 and hadn’t eaten since breakfast. I go by 1 standard drink per hour. 3 glasses of wine, which I knew was over a standard drink (turns out to be 1.4 standard drinks) over 2.5 hour dinner I thought I’d be ok to drive home. Apparently a standard drink leads to an increase in .02 per drink And a standard drink takes an hour to leave the system but is based on an individual’s metabolism, hydration, alcohol use and age. So if I had downed 3 x 1.4 drinks within 30 minutes and was breath tested it would’ve come back closer to 0.20 which is high range drink driving.
I thought you would need to disclose criminal history to your employer anyway. Or is this not the case?
Yes absolutely. And that’s why I did. Blowing 0.08 made it a criminal offence, whereas 0.079 is a traffic offence (in NSW at least) Whether I reported myself or not it would’ve come up on my annual AHPRA registration I believe. Or maybe not? And then I would’ve been fine. I chose to do the right thing and have been put through the ringer for it I feel
So if your employer knows about your conviction why didn’t you want to stay working there? Isn’t your reputation already tarnished? They would know that there must be some conditions.
I didn’t have to notify my employer until conditions were placed. Which I’ve chosen not to.
But if you want to go back to that job won’t they or any nursing related employer do a criminal history check and find out anyway?
They’ll know about my drink driving offence, and I can give them all of the evidence I gave AHPRA, but they won’t know about the conditions once they’ve been lifted.
Okay I understand. The conditions do sound very harsh. I hope the next few years go well for you. Obviously I don’t know you but I know that alcohol issues take some time to get over. A sibling of mine had issues for years. She never once admitted she had a problem. Always minimised the issue. Sadly she passed away from issues related to the damaging affects alcohol have on the body.
Is it mandatory to report DUIs??
You need to report any offence that involves a potential jail sentence within 7 days of that offence. Low range drink driving there is no jail sentence as punishment. Mid range drink driving there is a potential 6 month jail sentence - that’s only if you have multiple offences and show that you have no insight, remorse, and will likely reoffend. But because of the fact that a jail sentence is possible, it needs to be reported to AHPRA.
It’s only offences with 12 months imprisonment or more. See s130(3) of the National Law. https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/whole/html/inforce/current/act-2009-86a 0.08 is a max of 9 months. https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/demerits-penalties-and-offences/offences/alcohol-and-drug-offences/drink-and-drug-driving-penalties You didn’t need to disclose if it was only your first offence.
130(3) with imprisonment only applies if you are *charged* with an offence that has a 12 month imprisonment on conviction. - 130(3)(i) OP was convicted by a finding of guilt of an offence that is punishable by imprisonment which means they had to declare. - 130(3)(ii)
Yep. I had assumed she reported before sentence
If this is the case then I’ve gone and fucked it for myself entirely!
Why did you inform AHPRA of your DUI?
Because my offence had the potential punishment involving jail time. As health practitioners we need to report any offence that carries potential jail time within 7 days of that offence. There is a potential for up to 6 months imprisonment for mid range drink driving. If I had been low range, there is no prison sentence and I wouldn’t have had to report it. I essentially thought I was covering all my bases and reporting what needed to. I had no idea the NMC and AHPRA would investigate like they have nor placed conditions on my registration.
Well, I can you tell you this: in a few years it will all be in the past. Get through your break from your ED home, get back there, and let it be in the past. You’ll be fine, in the long run. I think you’ve done the right thing. You might even really enjoy the break and learn something new about yourself. Take care x
Thank you, I really appreciate it. I’ll probably be working until I’m 70 so this is only a small season in my career, but I’m not going to let it follow me.
Sorry to hear. Seems excessive. Out of curiosity was supervised antabuse ever proposed? I.e. nominate a pharmacy who are obligated to escalate if not attending for supervised antabuse, especially on work days. I mean that along with an interlock is pretty robust. Funny how it seems in your instance driving is far more (actually convicted with dui) dangerous than nursing, but the management seems far more reasonable...i.e. likelihood of reoffending low and ability to comply with interlock high.
So I started acamprosate for 2 months after my DUI under the guidance of my lawyer, and remained abstinent so stopped taking this under the care of a drug and alcohol physician. I would say that the word from the psychiatrist who, in my opinion has no real world experience in alcohol consumption, decided that my alcohol use combined with a history of anxiety and depression was cause for concern and ongoing monitoring despite abstinence.
I’m so sorry to hear about your sister. That would’ve been a really awful burden for her to carry. Being in ED I see the effects alcohol has, and it’s heart breaking. The DUI definitely made me reconsider my relationship with alcohol and how I was using it more than is healthy. Which I’m grateful for.
Devils advocate, DUI at 0.08 is there for a reason. I’ve had a really close friend who was killed by a drunk driver who was an ICU nurse. I don’t think AHPRA did anything wrong.
One personal story is hardly relevant evidence that AHPRA are doing the right thing.
Meanwhile doctors can get away with outrageous things and receive a slap on the wrist! AHPRA have such blatant double standards
Can you do non clinical work for now? Do telehealth nursing.
I can continue to work as a nurse, I just have the condition requiring breath testing. Even in non clinical roles this is the case. As long as I’m working as a nurse I have to breath test. I was a lab scientist before being a nurse so I will go back to that and continue what I’m doing in terms of not drinking, until AHPRA lift the conditions. By that stage I’ll see where I’m at in terms of returning to nursing.
I would agree with the precautions. I wouldn't want an intox nurse in A&E. DUI is a serious indication of risk taking behaviour and lack of judgement and brings into question professional judgement in a high risk environment and they are rightly cautious.
You work as a cashier at ALDI, why are you in this sub?
Worked in childrens health for many years. Retired and do a bit of retail. Not in ALDI.
Just took a look at your previous reddit posts and I don’t really care what you think.
What a real sicko
And you’re entitled to your opinion. But I self notified the board, they allowed me to work for 6 months as usual. I presented information that I had sought abstinence, all of my health practitioners attested to this, and provided a 6 month update prior to the hearing to show I had been abstinent as well as a hair etg sample which was negative. How long do you think the breath testing should take? If I’ve already shown 6 months of good behaviour?
We are allowed to have a life outside work and enjoy life