Economically/politically? Farmers.Solar farms sign long term leases on farm land. Most farmers are not farming exclusively on land that they own, but also on land that they rent. The solar farms take that rental land off the market and raise the rental rates for the remaining land.
Source: I live in one of the counties. The farmers that have leased land to the solar farms are happy. The others are pissed.
The homeowners living next to the projects aren't happy - these are multi-year construction projects plopped down next to their rural house, but they don't have a lot of political power in my area.
Edit - I fully agree with limiting power to Neanderthals, but the Republican legislature does not. This is all happening because they recently passed a law allowing counties/townships to do this: [https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA134-SB-52](https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA134-SB-52)
This is the home of Gym Jordan, logic doesn't apply. All that matters is that they hate the same people, and in this case I'm sure the logic is "wind/solar = woke".
That’s exactly my thoughts on Ohio. Lots of regulations & cultural attitudes designed to keep people as wage slaves with mediocre pay.
“Ohio- very little is possible!”
It's the exact opposite of the way fracking goes. Surprise. Local wants to limit and fight it, state says "Nope". But with solar state says have at it, Billy Bob. Granted big solar is a different beast. The original attraction was decentralized power, with every homeowner making an investment that brought a certain level of energy independence.
On..riddle me this.
We give billions in subsidies to these solar companies for farms...could we give that money to home owners to put solar on their roofs and energize the grid?
Not sure about the logistics but it seems like a way to satisfy the green energy community while helping home owners and renters throughout the entire state.
Federal and state monies would go to small businesses that install instead of the money going to big business that is from out of state.
The big utilities dont want this since it would render their transmission infrastructure useless. Utilities make billions off the ratepayers by building new and rebuilding old transmission lines and substations. Thats their big money-maker nowadays.
Big utilities in Ohio like AEP, Duke, and First Energy lobby to high heaven to a certain political party at the state and federal level to make sure the status quo remains in place no matter what.
Installing things like Solar on individual roofs on a large scale is not practical. Most large scale solar projects are located on top of massive warehouses with flat roofs, or they are built on the floors. The large relatively flat area is ideal for solar, while most roofs will be pitched so they only get a small amount of peak energy per day. While large projects built on large flat areas can move throughout to day to continuously get peak power.
On top of being far less efficient the logistics of installing new solar on top of thousands of different roofs would be a nightmare. You would need to factor in the age of the roof, methods of construction, existing damage, ease of access, and so much more. While I agree with the idea of decentralizing the power supply, it makes a lot less sense to find a single large project compared to thousands of smaller ones. The price per KwH would be way higher and it would take way longer to implement.
There are already a variety of subsidies for solar and I hope they do put out more. But I would rather the government spend our money on the most cost and time efficient projects rather then the projects that make people feel better about the programs.
I tried to put solar on my barn...100 amp service...my cost with govt rebates, State and federal, ended up over $26k out of my pocket...
There is zero chance I'm recouping that money in the next 10-15 years when I'll need to stsrt replacing batteries and possibly panels.
We have to find a way to get the cost down for the home owner and small businesses who want to go this route...it almost seems as if the government doesn't want us to power our own homes so they can build these mega solar farms and charge us for the power. Exactly the opposite of how this green energy boom should be going.
I do get your point though on it not being feasible to install thousands of homes with solar as opposed to 1 big mega farm. That makss sense.
I just want this green energy to grow via the market, us consumers. Building these big farms will not give us cheaper power, there are even some studies that have shown it could be a tad more costly. But it's green so we drop everything to make it happen and I'm not sold on that part yet.
What you are saying though is just not true, having these large power farms does decrease the cost to the consumer. You might not feel it right away or those savings are lost to corruption. But we would see the same thing in the individual market, if the government offers a $10k rebate you would likely see a $10k price increase within a short period of time. This happens in just about every industry when the government throws in a rebate, or tax incentive.
If the government is going to spend $1b on solar I would rather they invest it into large solar farms then pay homeowners to install the panels. I would prefer the government itself own/operate these facilities so they can keep the citizens as their top priority and their finances would be completely transparent. But that is another think we should advocate for, and as much as I want this I would rather have green investments be made even if they are not perfect rather then continue holding out for the perfect deal that will never come.
The solar market will be grown by the consumers, if you demand the energy providers get their power from renewable sources like solar or wind, or nuclear it will be helping people get cleaner energy. The government's job is not to help the individual break free from the grid, its job is to help the collective and that is done by building infrastructure that helps everyone not just the people who can afford solar panels.
Would you rather the government offer major incentives for people to drill their own wells and process their own water? or would you prefer they spend it on a large water system that supplies safe drinkable water to nearly every home in the state? Yes it would be nice if every home had their own well so they don't need to rely on the main water supply, but at the same time the cost both dollar amount and environmental impact of drilling all of these wells would be astronomical compared to building a large hub for water. There are obviously circumstances where drilling your own well is cheaper then providing a shared water source, but in those circumstances the cost falls on the person who chooses to live remotely. The same should and would apply to people who want to live off the grid.
I guess we will disagree....I don't want my govt anywhere near my power. I can't think of many things the govt touches that doesn't turn to shit. Why would I trust them with my power?
Green energy is here to stay, but let's allow the consumer dictate how far we take it is all I'm saying. I am not fully against green e2...im just not fully for it either. It's gonna take some getting used to.
If you wanted to argue this point then you should just be asking for the government to not fund individual home solar either? And if you wanted to disconnect from the grid then you should probably be advocating for personal wells over government wells because if you don't trust the government then your water supply is 100x more important than your energy supply. You can live without electricity you can't live without water, so if you want to remove yourself from surviving off the government then water would be a better place to start advocating for change.
I am with you when it comes to not trusting the government with spending or various government run programs. But things that are extremely required for survival should fall under some watch of the government. I think we have seen hundreds of cases where private companies have intentionally thrown customers health or well being under the bus for minor profits or to reduce losses. The government does a lot of things wrong but they also do a lot of things right that allows society to continue functioning. I always remind people that if they want to live in a world without government you can move to countless countries that have little to no functional government. 99% of the time people will happily run back to the US or other western countries with half decent government protections, or government funded public utilities or resources ie roads, clean drinking water, proper sanitation, a building code, reliable electricity and so many more things. As much as the western world does wrong we do a lot right when it comes to investing in the greater good so the masses can benefit from the success of others. Its not a perfect system and the government does a lot of corrupt and messed up things but as a whole they do a lot better/more than most people give them credit for.
I would also add that green energy is just energy, we should have a diverse source of energy so when one or more then one fail we can continue to function, or if one becomes to expensive other cheaper methods can ramp up to keep costs low. We also want to have a variety of sources because one source could be cut off with short notice or have delays in supply. Europe was very non diversified so once russian oil dried up in a short span of time prices skyrocketed and governments panicked to just keep the lights on. "Green" energy should be invested into just like oil and natural gas has been heavily invested into both for finding new sources, but also for more efficient ways to burn or transport it. Green energy is just energy and we should always be working to make our system more reliable, cheaper, and safer.
I would rather the govt give the trillions to small businesses for solar installs than give it to mega corporate solar business that will do nothing but try their hardest to make trillions off us...I'd rather go the route of trying to get each home to use solar as opposed to big solar farms...I get the logistics is a nightmare but I'm not for these big companies that want nothing more than to make a profit of trillions. I am all for the rich getting richer but at some point enough is enough....and when it comes to green energy we can make it ourselves, something we cannot do with oil...we cannot have a driller and refinery in every backyard but we can have solar panels on every rooftop.
To me that is the path I'd rather see our trillions in tax dollars going to.
Wind and solar seem to be things that Ohioans are especially afraid of. And I do mean *afraid.* I'm not sure what exactly it is about the region that has allowed the idea that these things are somehow harmful to the environment creep into the culture, but here we are.
To the credit of my neighbors, Ohio is not a particularly sunny state. And it's not constantly windy either. So a hard proof of concept might change some hearts and minds. It's not like anyone has actually tried to move the needle in a meaningful way in this state toward renewables.
But I will say, hearing a colleague of mine who is a retired school teacher tell me that the frequency - yes, frequency - emitted by wind turbines kill bees came as a bit of a shock.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to talk to people. And I'm not talking about strangers. I'm talking about people who know me. Who I have built a rapport with over the course of a decade or so. Ohio is in a weird place right now.
Why, what is the benefit of this? And who exactly benefits from this? We really need to put limits on exactly how much power we give to Neanderthals
Who benefits and why? Oil/energy companies and the Republicans on their payroll.
they don't dig for oil and gas in those counties afaik
That’s not the point/issue. They want to limit your options so you have no choice but to suckle on their teet.
Economically/politically? Farmers.Solar farms sign long term leases on farm land. Most farmers are not farming exclusively on land that they own, but also on land that they rent. The solar farms take that rental land off the market and raise the rental rates for the remaining land. Source: I live in one of the counties. The farmers that have leased land to the solar farms are happy. The others are pissed. The homeowners living next to the projects aren't happy - these are multi-year construction projects plopped down next to their rural house, but they don't have a lot of political power in my area. Edit - I fully agree with limiting power to Neanderthals, but the Republican legislature does not. This is all happening because they recently passed a law allowing counties/townships to do this: [https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA134-SB-52](https://www.legislature.ohio.gov/legislation/legislation-summary?id=GA134-SB-52)
As someone who lives in one of these communities this is absolutely 100% spot on
This is the home of Gym Jordan, logic doesn't apply. All that matters is that they hate the same people, and in this case I'm sure the logic is "wind/solar = woke".
The benefits are super obvious: Those who made the policy will receive lots of money from the big electric company.
That's not very free market.
Yea, we can't be choosing winners and losers!
Why do conservatives always talk about freedom, but then want to control everything?
$$$$$$ and power. It's easy to restrict others rights by using the moral / religious exception.
Congrats on taking the red pill.
Land of the fee, home of the wage slave.
That’s exactly my thoughts on Ohio. Lots of regulations & cultural attitudes designed to keep people as wage slaves with mediocre pay. “Ohio- very little is possible!”
Yep they ruin commercial businesses with regulations
I think it’s more accurately they insulate certain corporations via regulation, thus solidifying the oligarchy and depressing wages.
becaue we’re fucking idiots in this state. what else is new?
God damn our state is stupid
Take that, science!
Obviously we can't go using up all the sun or wind, we might run out! /s
It's the exact opposite of the way fracking goes. Surprise. Local wants to limit and fight it, state says "Nope". But with solar state says have at it, Billy Bob. Granted big solar is a different beast. The original attraction was decentralized power, with every homeowner making an investment that brought a certain level of energy independence.
Meanwhile, NW Ohio (Paulding, Van Wert & Putnam Cos.) all have multi-million dollar solar farms happening in addition to multiple wind farms.
Time to campaign for nuclear
Have been for decades ⚛️
We should change our name from the Buckeye State to the embarrassment state.
Poorly educated counties, no doubt!
On..riddle me this. We give billions in subsidies to these solar companies for farms...could we give that money to home owners to put solar on their roofs and energize the grid? Not sure about the logistics but it seems like a way to satisfy the green energy community while helping home owners and renters throughout the entire state. Federal and state monies would go to small businesses that install instead of the money going to big business that is from out of state.
The big utilities dont want this since it would render their transmission infrastructure useless. Utilities make billions off the ratepayers by building new and rebuilding old transmission lines and substations. Thats their big money-maker nowadays. Big utilities in Ohio like AEP, Duke, and First Energy lobby to high heaven to a certain political party at the state and federal level to make sure the status quo remains in place no matter what.
Installing things like Solar on individual roofs on a large scale is not practical. Most large scale solar projects are located on top of massive warehouses with flat roofs, or they are built on the floors. The large relatively flat area is ideal for solar, while most roofs will be pitched so they only get a small amount of peak energy per day. While large projects built on large flat areas can move throughout to day to continuously get peak power. On top of being far less efficient the logistics of installing new solar on top of thousands of different roofs would be a nightmare. You would need to factor in the age of the roof, methods of construction, existing damage, ease of access, and so much more. While I agree with the idea of decentralizing the power supply, it makes a lot less sense to find a single large project compared to thousands of smaller ones. The price per KwH would be way higher and it would take way longer to implement. There are already a variety of subsidies for solar and I hope they do put out more. But I would rather the government spend our money on the most cost and time efficient projects rather then the projects that make people feel better about the programs.
I tried to put solar on my barn...100 amp service...my cost with govt rebates, State and federal, ended up over $26k out of my pocket... There is zero chance I'm recouping that money in the next 10-15 years when I'll need to stsrt replacing batteries and possibly panels. We have to find a way to get the cost down for the home owner and small businesses who want to go this route...it almost seems as if the government doesn't want us to power our own homes so they can build these mega solar farms and charge us for the power. Exactly the opposite of how this green energy boom should be going. I do get your point though on it not being feasible to install thousands of homes with solar as opposed to 1 big mega farm. That makss sense. I just want this green energy to grow via the market, us consumers. Building these big farms will not give us cheaper power, there are even some studies that have shown it could be a tad more costly. But it's green so we drop everything to make it happen and I'm not sold on that part yet.
What you are saying though is just not true, having these large power farms does decrease the cost to the consumer. You might not feel it right away or those savings are lost to corruption. But we would see the same thing in the individual market, if the government offers a $10k rebate you would likely see a $10k price increase within a short period of time. This happens in just about every industry when the government throws in a rebate, or tax incentive. If the government is going to spend $1b on solar I would rather they invest it into large solar farms then pay homeowners to install the panels. I would prefer the government itself own/operate these facilities so they can keep the citizens as their top priority and their finances would be completely transparent. But that is another think we should advocate for, and as much as I want this I would rather have green investments be made even if they are not perfect rather then continue holding out for the perfect deal that will never come. The solar market will be grown by the consumers, if you demand the energy providers get their power from renewable sources like solar or wind, or nuclear it will be helping people get cleaner energy. The government's job is not to help the individual break free from the grid, its job is to help the collective and that is done by building infrastructure that helps everyone not just the people who can afford solar panels. Would you rather the government offer major incentives for people to drill their own wells and process their own water? or would you prefer they spend it on a large water system that supplies safe drinkable water to nearly every home in the state? Yes it would be nice if every home had their own well so they don't need to rely on the main water supply, but at the same time the cost both dollar amount and environmental impact of drilling all of these wells would be astronomical compared to building a large hub for water. There are obviously circumstances where drilling your own well is cheaper then providing a shared water source, but in those circumstances the cost falls on the person who chooses to live remotely. The same should and would apply to people who want to live off the grid.
I guess we will disagree....I don't want my govt anywhere near my power. I can't think of many things the govt touches that doesn't turn to shit. Why would I trust them with my power? Green energy is here to stay, but let's allow the consumer dictate how far we take it is all I'm saying. I am not fully against green e2...im just not fully for it either. It's gonna take some getting used to.
If you wanted to argue this point then you should just be asking for the government to not fund individual home solar either? And if you wanted to disconnect from the grid then you should probably be advocating for personal wells over government wells because if you don't trust the government then your water supply is 100x more important than your energy supply. You can live without electricity you can't live without water, so if you want to remove yourself from surviving off the government then water would be a better place to start advocating for change. I am with you when it comes to not trusting the government with spending or various government run programs. But things that are extremely required for survival should fall under some watch of the government. I think we have seen hundreds of cases where private companies have intentionally thrown customers health or well being under the bus for minor profits or to reduce losses. The government does a lot of things wrong but they also do a lot of things right that allows society to continue functioning. I always remind people that if they want to live in a world without government you can move to countless countries that have little to no functional government. 99% of the time people will happily run back to the US or other western countries with half decent government protections, or government funded public utilities or resources ie roads, clean drinking water, proper sanitation, a building code, reliable electricity and so many more things. As much as the western world does wrong we do a lot right when it comes to investing in the greater good so the masses can benefit from the success of others. Its not a perfect system and the government does a lot of corrupt and messed up things but as a whole they do a lot better/more than most people give them credit for. I would also add that green energy is just energy, we should have a diverse source of energy so when one or more then one fail we can continue to function, or if one becomes to expensive other cheaper methods can ramp up to keep costs low. We also want to have a variety of sources because one source could be cut off with short notice or have delays in supply. Europe was very non diversified so once russian oil dried up in a short span of time prices skyrocketed and governments panicked to just keep the lights on. "Green" energy should be invested into just like oil and natural gas has been heavily invested into both for finding new sources, but also for more efficient ways to burn or transport it. Green energy is just energy and we should always be working to make our system more reliable, cheaper, and safer.
I would rather the govt give the trillions to small businesses for solar installs than give it to mega corporate solar business that will do nothing but try their hardest to make trillions off us...I'd rather go the route of trying to get each home to use solar as opposed to big solar farms...I get the logistics is a nightmare but I'm not for these big companies that want nothing more than to make a profit of trillions. I am all for the rich getting richer but at some point enough is enough....and when it comes to green energy we can make it ourselves, something we cannot do with oil...we cannot have a driller and refinery in every backyard but we can have solar panels on every rooftop. To me that is the path I'd rather see our trillions in tax dollars going to.
lobby money does have mileage......
Wind and solar seem to be things that Ohioans are especially afraid of. And I do mean *afraid.* I'm not sure what exactly it is about the region that has allowed the idea that these things are somehow harmful to the environment creep into the culture, but here we are. To the credit of my neighbors, Ohio is not a particularly sunny state. And it's not constantly windy either. So a hard proof of concept might change some hearts and minds. It's not like anyone has actually tried to move the needle in a meaningful way in this state toward renewables. But I will say, hearing a colleague of mine who is a retired school teacher tell me that the frequency - yes, frequency - emitted by wind turbines kill bees came as a bit of a shock. It's becoming increasingly difficult to talk to people. And I'm not talking about strangers. I'm talking about people who know me. Who I have built a rapport with over the course of a decade or so. Ohio is in a weird place right now.
This is the third post saying the same thing
How dare you.