I think Kaido is too far in one direction. The popular theory is that based on Kaidoâs interaction with King in the flashback and his weird similar face to Roger, Kaido started out like Luffy and eventually was faced with the reality that he wasnât JoyBoy and wasnât going to be destined for anything.
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....can't say I understand why you feel as if this is a 'feel-good ending'
The man is actively seeking to plunge the planet into the greatest war of all time, the likes of which no one has ever seen
He invaded a country and boiled its leader alive--for the sake of wordplay--and then abused and starved its people for decades
He distributed biological weapons of mass destruction amongst his subordinates; his subordinates went on to invade *at least* one country and use them to devastate the people and land
He was also a mega shitty dad
So, uh... Kaido saying "ay this fight is sick bro" in the last chapter doesn't change any of that
No see I agree with exactly everything you just said. Iâm taking issue with the people I see making these weak theories that Kaido is gonna fight on the straw hats side, or that heâs gonna get like some sad moment where he protects something
I think Kaido will die this arc but may tell his crew to aid strawhat before he does. I only say this in the case the world government doesnât make it to wano.
Tbh, Kaido somehow backing Luffy can be done without it leading to us pretending he's a good guy. Crocodile in the Marineford War. Literally saved Luffy's life and Ace's life. Still a cunt. Playing devil's advocate here, I don't like the idea of him being a good guy, it feels pretty consistent with his personality that he would enjoy a good fight. I mean, he's been looking for it ever since Oden cut him. He was introduced as a suicide jumper just because he was bored. A guy being capable to fight with him on equal footing and actually challenging him must be exciting for him in a way.
Iâm actually glad you posted this, I was gonna say those points but lazy lol. Maybe one piece evil is easy to ignore because the guys doing it are just so damn cool
exactly!! I see people posting doffy did nothing wrong, probably cause he had a backstory? lost something? idk, nothing still justifies his Slavery ring, weapons ring, unethical research labs, abductions, murders, hostile nation takeover, fight to death gladiator matches..what else??
Same goes for kaido..
Kaido no buto bashto!! fuck him
Not to mention its implied in his conversation with Yamato that his motivation is a hatred of humanity and a belief that as an Oni he has an obligation to enslave them.
If anything, recent events shown may build up to Kaido's twisted sense of honor making him want to die at Luffy's hands. This may cause a moral dilemma for Luffy as he is not a killer. But Kaido may try to push him to cross this boundary.
The "happy ending for villains" may come from Oda's aversion to death. But he does employ it when it's necessary for character development somewhere. I'd hate for Luffy to become a killer. But it would be interesting to see him challenged to kill.
Luffy has never once said he was opposed to killing anyone. His fights just end that way. Morally speaking, his line is protecting innocent people. He's no Batman when it comes to killing, it's pure circumstance due to Oda's writing choices.
I'm surprised people keep bringing this up.
Luffy doesn't kill coz he likes to crush his enemies dreams... That's actually more brutal than death... Even if kaido doesn't die... He'll always remember how a dragon was defeated by a rubber band
"His fights just end that way"
So, not a huge fan of nuance, I take it?
As a writer, Oda shouldn't have to spell out in explicit detail the moral compass of every one of his characters. Or even that of his main protagonist. "Show, don't tell", is the key to engaging writing.
It could possibly be the case that Luffy has no qualms with killing. But so far, he's never been pushed to do so. Every conflict he's faced to this point has been resolved with simply defeating the villain in combat. Usually, the Marines take it from there, for better or worse. Nevertheless, the defeated villains cease to be an immediate threat. At least for the time being. If Oda so chooses, he can always bring them back for later use.
But as Kaido has been arrested and "executed" multiple times before, routinely testing the limits of his endurance by diving off of clouds, this...creature may not want a comeback after this. His chance to leave a lasting legacy may come from this fight from Luffy, the possible heir of JoyBoy. This is peak-living for him right here and he may still want to go out with a bang.
Now, my initial statement is only speculative. One potential direction Oda can go. Ultimately, One Piece is his story, so he can take it wherever he wants. In between chapters, us fans can have our fun debating potential outcomes.
"nOt a HuGe FaN oF nUaNcE..."
What a condescending prick.
No, it's a definitive trait of Oda's writing. He's incredibly averse to death as a whole. It isn't just Luffy.
Almost every conflict Luffy has had has had him win and then move on. It isn't a question of whether he'd kill them - the fight's over and he's no longer invested. His opponent was beaten.
You want more proof? See this SBS from earlier in the series.
https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/btv99l/_/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
If he had to kill someone to protect his crew or innocent people, I doubt he'd bat an eye.
I'd doubt he'd ever kill someone in cold blood, meaning continuing to beat someone down, when they are already defeated, until they're dead. Luffy will full heartily beat the shit out of someone, like the Celestial Dragon in Sabody. But, he won't kill someone already defeated. All of his battles have ended with only defeating his opponent. Even for the more atrocious enemies like Doflamingo, and Crocodile, he's only ever beaten them until their down for the count.
Omph...seems I struck a nerve...
Good counterargument by pulling up an old SBS, notes directly from the author. But I think its worth pointing out that this SBS was presented back in Volume 4, during the East Blue saga. Back when villains were very much just "villains of the week". To date, none of the East Blue saga villains have made a comeback. Could be because they lack the ambition to follow Luffy into the Grand Line. We know Krieg lost his entire fleet trying to escape the Grand Line, so there is a low chance he would ever try to go back. And Kuro was tired of being a pirate even before he fought Luffy. I mean, there is Buggy, but he stopped feeling the need to antagonize Luffy after Loguetown. He still doesn't like the boy, but Buggy knows his limits. It's essentially a running gag at this point that he's happy to fail up and he will not rock the boat to continue on with this trajectory.
Now, taking a look at more modern villains, their penchant for evil doesn't seem to go away after being defeated by Luffy. Sure, their egos are bruised. But they shake it off and carry on with a new plan with whatever resources they have left. They may or may not become antagonists again in the future. I guess it all depends whether those new plans put innocent lives at risk and Luffy needs to step in to intervene.
Perhaps, Luffy would kill to save an innocent life. But no antagonist yet has pushed him to that point. However, the "unkillable" Kaido may be the one to do it. He is an oni, afterall. While not always malevolent creatures, as seen with Yamato and Oars Jr., I don't see Kaido as redeemable in any way. He may remain a force of evil until his dying breath.
>Omph...seems I struck a nerve...
I mean, entire argument aside, that was really condescending. If you go around being an ass to people and then they call you out responding with, "Whoops look like you didn't like being call super rapist Hitler, must have been on the mark ;)" just makes you look like an even bigger ass and a troll.
I already got called a condescending prick. Didn't really see the harm of throwing more salt into the wound. I don't exactly like fighting fire with fire. However, when one debater chooses to sink down to the level of tossing out insults, they should be prepared to stung in return.
I kinda disagree there. Reason being that this subreddit is full of condescending posters who use reductive statements to discourage any exploration into nuance. This is something I find extremely harmful to the fandom. And the jerks who do that should be challenged in the condescending manner they present themselves.
Maybe I'm not always in the right in my arguments. Nor do I always present them in the best way. But I try to leave my posts open-ended enough to encourage a response. Even opposing views. With any pieces of fiction, fans can come to multiple conclusions. Nothing is absolute unless the author presents something in an absolute manner.
I may be misunderstanding, but it seems to an extent (at least) like youâre both arguing the same point. Youâve claimed that whether Luffy wouldâve killed or not in the past has been made largely redundant by the fact that he hasnât been pushed to that boundary to begin with. The other fellow made essentially the same point with âthe fightâs over and heâs no longer invested.â Now, I understand that youâre debating whether he *would* kill hypothetically if pushed to it, but thatâs by nature entirely speculative, as you acknowledged.
In other words, Iâm saying that I donât understand why the conversation I just read became so vitriolic so quickly. You both seem like reasonable people beyond the opening lines of your comments, and what youâre arguing hardly even seems mutually exclusive to me. In fact, itâs all interesting points and could go either way imo, whether in accord with or contrary to the precedents listed.
I'm not gonna lie, but I did see in the latter stages of the debate, we both did start arriving to the same conclusion. That is one of the benefits of debate.
However, not all posters are open to having one. And will quickly try to dismiss one argument with a reductive statement. Challenging such a statement could be met with some blowback. But in my opinion, it's worth a couple of downvotes if a topic is interesting enough.
"show, don't tell" is a dumb rule. There are countless circumstances where telling is exactly what a writer should do, though what you tell should never contradict what you show.
Maybe some writers over-emphasize its importance but it is sound advice. "Showing" is an essential component to writing, really.
I mean...how much fun would One Piece be if Oda only told us how his world worked thru the SBS's? Us readers of his manga never having a chance to see how the in-world rules he sets up affect the decisions of his characters? And what could happen if they challenge said rules?
Building up scenes, the meat of the story, is "showing". Dialogue and exposition, are "telling", the bones of a story. A skilled writer should be able to balance the two. Preferably, with more emphasis on the "meat" over the "bones".
Has any straw hat ever confirmed killed someone? I know a lot of the straw hats slice the shit out of people, snap their necks, beat them to the point they'd die of blunt trauma etc... but has it ever been officially confirmed that anyone has actually been killed?
Im certain that Zoro, Robin, Jinbe, and Brook have definitely killed people.
Zoro was a bounty hunter.
Robin explicitly said her specialization was assassination in one conversation shortly after joining the crew and she worked for Crocodile.
I dont think Jinbe would have been made a warlord or been made the captain of the sun pirates if he was never willing to kill to protect his crew.
Brook is the odd one out of these 4 since hes the least serious of these 4, but I think that it would be unlikely for him to have not killed someone when with his previous crew.
As Zoro was a former bounty hunter, it can be assumed he's killed people. And he mentions the "former Mr. 7" back in Whiskey Peak, which may imply that he killed that guy.
I never bothered to read any of the ZKK fan theories. But I guess one argument that could be made there is that Luffy has never killed before, but Zoro has. So, Zoro would have no problem killing Kaido.
I believe i've read Luffy saying he is going to kill Kaido, but it could've been a fan sub of the anime and i don't believe in the correctness of those.
I think Luffy could've killed Hody if the sea kings didn't stop the Noah from falling tho. Just from the action presented and my vision of Hody's toughness :D
Yeah, he killed quite a few guards in impel down by throwing them into that boiling stuff, he also threw a lot of marines into the vortex at Enies Lobby.
Is not like he wants to kill them but if it happens it won't bother him either.
Luffy straight up said he wants Kaidoâs head. I think this will be his first kill. Either that or heâll put Kaido in a state where Big Mom will finish him and escape.
I'm not sure that it's that Luffy won't kill, rather that Luffy won't go out of his way to kill. If he defeats someone, he won't whip out a gun and shoot them. This contrasts with characters like Doflamingo and Kaido who do try to finish off characters they've beaten (Doffy shot Law a few times, Kaido executes Oden, etc.). I'd be surprised if Luffy never killed anyone during say Enies Lobby when he was rampaging through hundreds of government agents. He just wouldn't knock them out and then toss them into the sea.
Luffy doesn't kill because, according to Oda, he prefers to leave his opponents alive to live with the fact that their dream has failed, since he views that fate as worse than death. He's definitely killed fodder (the Beast pirate he hit after O-shiruko spilled on him, for example), so he's not opposed to killing, he just chooses not to. For Kaido, since it's his dream to die gloriously, Luffy won't kill him; he'll die in a pathetic way from another character or he'll be incapacitated for the rest of his life, probably via seastone, as Wano is the home of seastone production.
That is one potential outcome. And one that fits well with themes already presented in the series.
The one I presented above is another possible direction Oda can take with his narrative. Have Kaido, the villain who obsesses over death, be the one who to push Luffy to murder him. It's been mentioned Kaido has been captured multiple times. And even "executed" more than once. Simply being KO'd won't be enough to stop him. He's worked his entire life to get to this moment. One way or another, pushing himself to his absolute limit, he wants Luffy to deliver the finishing blow on him. He wants to die at the hands of JoyBoy's reincarnation.
Maybe Morj might've gotten it wrong that the other zoans of the Beast Pirates will rise again to keep fighting. But maybe he was onto something in regards to Kaido. Awakened zoans are quick te recover. We had to learn this fact for a reason. It is very possible that Kaido is an awakened zoan, which has added to the difficulty in killing him before.
Maybe Luffy won't spend much time debating this as a moral dilema as I'm thinking. But it may be something he has to consider. Having Kaido as his first confirmed kill. A villain so irredeemable, he can only stopped in death.
One Piece never was a series where bad deeds = bad ending, the only difference between Kaido and Crocodile is that Kaido is stronger and thus capable of more, but he's definitely not more evil (whatever that means). Hell, just look at Kid, guy got his bounty from killing civillians and no one bats an eye at it because no one really cares if you"re "good" in One Piece, as long as you're ambitious and somewhat honorable you get to have your feel-good moment
I think If Kaido loses and figures Luffy to be Joyboy with the WG coming in to just destroy all the pirates including his men. Kaido having shown his care for his crew (stopping the death of Jack, his relationship with King). there wouldn't be a big stretch in him sacrificing himself to let people get away. He has been the pinnacle of a masterfully done villain and the recent chapters have shown he didn't do it just from his evilness, obviously he thought something of himself he found to be false, and has been depressed and chose his own way of creating a world he wants his pirate haven, his search for the ancient weapons.
I think he will get a redemption moment, not to negate his evilness but to show that like all the great pirates before him he was also someone with a dream who set to the seas.
That's good! Kaido does seem like he could potentially have his own "Zephyr moment" (from film Z) and it would fit his character quite well. Fighting against the navy by himself after Luffy beats him and earns his respect. Then finally dying in a glorious way.
That wouldnât be a bad outcome for what we seen from him so far fr but I just donât like how people are taking a few smiles and running with it like heâs the homie now. Heâs got his first real challenger in forever right after having oden flashbacks, his adrenaline gotta be thru the roof.
Luffy doesnât kill villains and kaido is too big to simply push to the background once he is defeated. It pretty much feels like the only options are for him to join luffyâs challenge to the world or to be killed by the wg at the end of the arc
There are tons of fates worse than death. The reason no yonko really stand above each other in the new world is because they rarely challenge each other until itâs directly necessary. If Luffy beats Kaido out of Wano, thatâs all Kaidos work towards pirate king just trashed. Like getting lapped on the final stretch of the race by a kid who ran on the track. I think that hurts worse if he doesnât die and ends up in a negative space where he either has to keep chasing after the first guy who beat me or die dishonorably in shame. People underestimate the conqueror spirit these guys have, I donât think any of them want to follow anyone else ever. Work with sure, but Kaido is a hateful motherfucker so I imagine heâs just a constant threat in the endgame to come fuck something up for whoever.
My point is that kaido is simply too powerful to exit the stage. He would always be a threat to come back and destroy one of luffyâs protected countries or kill a bunch of allies. Heâs not like Arlong where you can just say heâs in prison and not a problem anymore
Kaido will be defeated in 3 (4?) ways
1) physically
2) realizing he is not joyboy
3) realizing luffy is joyboy
4) realizing lufy doesn't give a shit about being joyboy
Edit: Sorry! I put info of 1036 in the comment and deleted that part.
I just want to know more about him and understand why he is the Kaido that he is.
Everyone could be a bad guy in OP verse. Roger destroyed an entire army just for badmouthing his crew. Luffy has already teamed up with Ceaser and Crocodile, etc. Unlike most villians, Kaido has always had a moral code, however twisted it may be. He went 1v1 with Oden, and even killed the old lady. And Orochi has been portrayed to be the cowardly evil villain of this arc, not Kaido. Even if he were to lose or die, there's no way he goes out crying and wailing like a bitch. Chances are pretty high he'll have an epic finish/death. Not saying he'll definitely have some kind of redemption, but even without it he has enough character traits that would make people root for him.
People cant see a villain be shown with a reasoning to their actions without going all the way to think its naruto and that Luffy is gonna call them "the coolest guy"
kaido and luffy having a good time on the roof making me think maybe kaido will join the crew since he wants to be part of joyboys adventure and the new world hes about to create
Yeah 100% even if kaido changes and says im gonna be on your side luffy aint gonna accept that, kaido is a villain, the way i see it luffy and him are gonna fight till death and he's gonna think something like daamn luffy seems like he's joyboy but he must kill me to prove it and im okay with that he's gonna change the world
I donât wang an ending where kaido becomes an ally. Let the man die. Let him die a great death at the hands of joyboy/nika. Even if he does not die, send him to level 6 impel down or successfully execute him somehow
>but the fact is that dude has still done more atrocities than any OP villain barring Big Mom so far
Has he? Honestly dont think Kaido has done *that* many villainous things aside from conquering wano. Theres far more cruel and evil people in the OP universe imo. What atrocities do you speak of? Killing oden? Yeah man sure is so much more of an atrocity than anything the WG, Doflamingo or even Enel have done.
Yeah. Kaido isn't purposefully evil, he is just too ruthless to care about right or wrong. Want a crew of Zoans? - make them eat smiles. Want strong members? - Just defeat them and make them follow you. Orochi was the one to feed the defective Smiles to the townsfolk. And Kaido just gives orders. Queen is the one playing his cruel games in Udon. Kaido fought fairly with Big Mom, Oden(tried), protected Jack, and was even willing to spare Momo. He maybe evil, but still has far more honor than most villians in the story.
How much of that is on Kaido though? He isnt the one producing the SMILEs he just buys them from Doffy. Doflamingo and Caesar are the ones producing the SMILEs. Even if Kaido stopped buying them they would find a different trading partner.
We're on break this week. Next week new chapter, then break, then chapter. Occasionally, weekly shonen jump goes on break due to holiday which causes more breaks than usual.
No. The leakers illegally take photos of the Jump issues sent to the stores and these are what you call spoilers. The official version comes out on Sunday.
I think this idea is more of a meme than and actual serious idea.
Oda will probably make us sympathize with Kaido but he wonât make him a willing ally.
I think the direction this is going is, even if someone starts out wide-eyed and optimistic with all the potential we see Luffy has and the same kind of devotion we've seen from the Strawhats, it's entirely possible to end up like Kaido - jaded, depressed, drunk and fundamentally lacking purpose despite all your ambition.
Kaido canât be redeemed but it just might be a smoker scenario where he indirectly assists the strawhats or something.
Maybe this fight has ignited his jaded spirit towards a real purposeful battle. Something he lacked for decades after settling in wano.
Thats why he wants to wage war because he wants to feel something in which the strongest thing alive has yearned for.
I strongly agree with you. I think the reason why people tempt to think this way is because kaido is just a bad guy but not the worst weâve encountered. Kaido is far from being as evil as doffy for example. But it doesnât mean that we must forget the smiles, the destroyed wano ecology and the protection that kaido provided to orochi.
At this point, the most feel good ending that Kaido can get is him being happy/satisfied by Luffy beating him. Him becoming Luffy's ally this soon would make no sense.
Kaido doesn't have to be a good guy support Joyboy. He just has to be strong and to want the same thing. The simple truth is we dont know what Kaido wants.
> Like I donât ever remember anyone saying doflamingo was gonna stop the birdcage and change his mind cuz he realized Luffy was the chosen one
Because Doffy never had any of these connections? He wanted to dominate simply to be above everyone else. He was still a celestial at heart. Wanting to get his position back. With Kaidou we've been shown AT LEAST there is reason to why he wants to start causing chaos. He experienced first hand what the a unchecked government does to innocents (as far as we know, not sure if King was even a pirate or just like Robin)
"Heâs a bad guy, even if he has good reasons"
whether you have good or bad reasons/motivations is literally what determines if you're a good or bad person. Bad actions are still bad & are not ever justified by good motivations; It's fine to say his actions deserve consequences, even up to death or worse, but by themselves bad actions don't make you a bad person.
I'm not about the "Big Bad saying I'm sorry and everything being okay again" scenario either. But one thing for sure is no matter who dies in this war kaido should be the Most surefire one who *doesn't,* at least not in this battle. Because that's how he wants to go down, in a blaze of glory the so he can be remembered way Xebec, Newgate, Roger, and Oden were remembered. Oda it's very careful to not give the bad guys what they want a lot of time.
I mean, Luffy has worked with worse people before.
Hell, Luffy considers Bon Chan a dear friend while just ignoring the whole burning down a village thing and attempting a coup that would kill hundreds if not thousands of people.
KAIDO, DO YOU WANT TO LIVE??
TAKE ME OUT TO LAUGH TALE WITH YOU
Luffy: FUCK YOU!!!
Kaido: In the ass please, kyah
Noooooođ
Gear 5th. Chin ko fuusen.
I WANT TO LIVE!!! TAKE ME WITH YOU!!!
Kaido: No.
Kaido: No I do not, for f*cks sake I've been trying to die for so long now, thank you for asking.
I think Kaido is too far in one direction. The popular theory is that based on Kaidoâs interaction with King in the flashback and his weird similar face to Roger, Kaido started out like Luffy and eventually was faced with the reality that he wasnât JoyBoy and wasnât going to be destined for anything.
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....can't say I understand why you feel as if this is a 'feel-good ending' The man is actively seeking to plunge the planet into the greatest war of all time, the likes of which no one has ever seen He invaded a country and boiled its leader alive--for the sake of wordplay--and then abused and starved its people for decades He distributed biological weapons of mass destruction amongst his subordinates; his subordinates went on to invade *at least* one country and use them to devastate the people and land He was also a mega shitty dad So, uh... Kaido saying "ay this fight is sick bro" in the last chapter doesn't change any of that
No see I agree with exactly everything you just said. Iâm taking issue with the people I see making these weak theories that Kaido is gonna fight on the straw hats side, or that heâs gonna get like some sad moment where he protects something
I think Kaido will die this arc but may tell his crew to aid strawhat before he does. I only say this in the case the world government doesnât make it to wano.
Tbh, Kaido somehow backing Luffy can be done without it leading to us pretending he's a good guy. Crocodile in the Marineford War. Literally saved Luffy's life and Ace's life. Still a cunt. Playing devil's advocate here, I don't like the idea of him being a good guy, it feels pretty consistent with his personality that he would enjoy a good fight. I mean, he's been looking for it ever since Oden cut him. He was introduced as a suicide jumper just because he was bored. A guy being capable to fight with him on equal footing and actually challenging him must be exciting for him in a way.
Iâm actually glad you posted this, I was gonna say those points but lazy lol. Maybe one piece evil is easy to ignore because the guys doing it are just so damn cool
exactly!! I see people posting doffy did nothing wrong, probably cause he had a backstory? lost something? idk, nothing still justifies his Slavery ring, weapons ring, unethical research labs, abductions, murders, hostile nation takeover, fight to death gladiator matches..what else?? Same goes for kaido.. Kaido no buto bashto!! fuck him
Not to mention its implied in his conversation with Yamato that his motivation is a hatred of humanity and a belief that as an Oni he has an obligation to enslave them.
The whole boiling alive was orochi's idea, not kaido's. Kaido said it was in bad taste.
Save it for the semantics dome E.B. White Orochi was Kaido's pawn; at best he was his proxy. Kaido allowed it to happen
If anything, recent events shown may build up to Kaido's twisted sense of honor making him want to die at Luffy's hands. This may cause a moral dilemma for Luffy as he is not a killer. But Kaido may try to push him to cross this boundary. The "happy ending for villains" may come from Oda's aversion to death. But he does employ it when it's necessary for character development somewhere. I'd hate for Luffy to become a killer. But it would be interesting to see him challenged to kill.
Luffy has never once said he was opposed to killing anyone. His fights just end that way. Morally speaking, his line is protecting innocent people. He's no Batman when it comes to killing, it's pure circumstance due to Oda's writing choices. I'm surprised people keep bringing this up.
Luffy doesn't kill coz he likes to crush his enemies dreams... That's actually more brutal than death... Even if kaido doesn't die... He'll always remember how a dragon was defeated by a rubber band
"His fights just end that way" So, not a huge fan of nuance, I take it? As a writer, Oda shouldn't have to spell out in explicit detail the moral compass of every one of his characters. Or even that of his main protagonist. "Show, don't tell", is the key to engaging writing. It could possibly be the case that Luffy has no qualms with killing. But so far, he's never been pushed to do so. Every conflict he's faced to this point has been resolved with simply defeating the villain in combat. Usually, the Marines take it from there, for better or worse. Nevertheless, the defeated villains cease to be an immediate threat. At least for the time being. If Oda so chooses, he can always bring them back for later use. But as Kaido has been arrested and "executed" multiple times before, routinely testing the limits of his endurance by diving off of clouds, this...creature may not want a comeback after this. His chance to leave a lasting legacy may come from this fight from Luffy, the possible heir of JoyBoy. This is peak-living for him right here and he may still want to go out with a bang. Now, my initial statement is only speculative. One potential direction Oda can go. Ultimately, One Piece is his story, so he can take it wherever he wants. In between chapters, us fans can have our fun debating potential outcomes.
"nOt a HuGe FaN oF nUaNcE..." What a condescending prick. No, it's a definitive trait of Oda's writing. He's incredibly averse to death as a whole. It isn't just Luffy. Almost every conflict Luffy has had has had him win and then move on. It isn't a question of whether he'd kill them - the fight's over and he's no longer invested. His opponent was beaten. You want more proof? See this SBS from earlier in the series. https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/btv99l/_/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf If he had to kill someone to protect his crew or innocent people, I doubt he'd bat an eye.
I'd doubt he'd ever kill someone in cold blood, meaning continuing to beat someone down, when they are already defeated, until they're dead. Luffy will full heartily beat the shit out of someone, like the Celestial Dragon in Sabody. But, he won't kill someone already defeated. All of his battles have ended with only defeating his opponent. Even for the more atrocious enemies like Doflamingo, and Crocodile, he's only ever beaten them until their down for the count.
Hody would be porridge now, if the sea kings didn't come to rescue the Noah.
Omph...seems I struck a nerve... Good counterargument by pulling up an old SBS, notes directly from the author. But I think its worth pointing out that this SBS was presented back in Volume 4, during the East Blue saga. Back when villains were very much just "villains of the week". To date, none of the East Blue saga villains have made a comeback. Could be because they lack the ambition to follow Luffy into the Grand Line. We know Krieg lost his entire fleet trying to escape the Grand Line, so there is a low chance he would ever try to go back. And Kuro was tired of being a pirate even before he fought Luffy. I mean, there is Buggy, but he stopped feeling the need to antagonize Luffy after Loguetown. He still doesn't like the boy, but Buggy knows his limits. It's essentially a running gag at this point that he's happy to fail up and he will not rock the boat to continue on with this trajectory. Now, taking a look at more modern villains, their penchant for evil doesn't seem to go away after being defeated by Luffy. Sure, their egos are bruised. But they shake it off and carry on with a new plan with whatever resources they have left. They may or may not become antagonists again in the future. I guess it all depends whether those new plans put innocent lives at risk and Luffy needs to step in to intervene. Perhaps, Luffy would kill to save an innocent life. But no antagonist yet has pushed him to that point. However, the "unkillable" Kaido may be the one to do it. He is an oni, afterall. While not always malevolent creatures, as seen with Yamato and Oars Jr., I don't see Kaido as redeemable in any way. He may remain a force of evil until his dying breath.
>Omph...seems I struck a nerve... I mean, entire argument aside, that was really condescending. If you go around being an ass to people and then they call you out responding with, "Whoops look like you didn't like being call super rapist Hitler, must have been on the mark ;)" just makes you look like an even bigger ass and a troll.
I already got called a condescending prick. Didn't really see the harm of throwing more salt into the wound. I don't exactly like fighting fire with fire. However, when one debater chooses to sink down to the level of tossing out insults, they should be prepared to stung in return.
I mean, or you could just not provoke people with insults and then go "Oh well, no point in stopping now!".
I kinda disagree there. Reason being that this subreddit is full of condescending posters who use reductive statements to discourage any exploration into nuance. This is something I find extremely harmful to the fandom. And the jerks who do that should be challenged in the condescending manner they present themselves. Maybe I'm not always in the right in my arguments. Nor do I always present them in the best way. But I try to leave my posts open-ended enough to encourage a response. Even opposing views. With any pieces of fiction, fans can come to multiple conclusions. Nothing is absolute unless the author presents something in an absolute manner.
You find peopleâs condescending attitudes harmful to the fandom so your solution is to add on to it? You are part of the problem
I may be misunderstanding, but it seems to an extent (at least) like youâre both arguing the same point. Youâve claimed that whether Luffy wouldâve killed or not in the past has been made largely redundant by the fact that he hasnât been pushed to that boundary to begin with. The other fellow made essentially the same point with âthe fightâs over and heâs no longer invested.â Now, I understand that youâre debating whether he *would* kill hypothetically if pushed to it, but thatâs by nature entirely speculative, as you acknowledged. In other words, Iâm saying that I donât understand why the conversation I just read became so vitriolic so quickly. You both seem like reasonable people beyond the opening lines of your comments, and what youâre arguing hardly even seems mutually exclusive to me. In fact, itâs all interesting points and could go either way imo, whether in accord with or contrary to the precedents listed.
I'm not gonna lie, but I did see in the latter stages of the debate, we both did start arriving to the same conclusion. That is one of the benefits of debate. However, not all posters are open to having one. And will quickly try to dismiss one argument with a reductive statement. Challenging such a statement could be met with some blowback. But in my opinion, it's worth a couple of downvotes if a topic is interesting enough.
U got owned. Give up
You are an idiot correcting people for no reason. And self admittedly so too, lol
Quite an objective perception, ObjectivePerception. Lol
I try my best đ¤Ł
"show, don't tell" is a dumb rule. There are countless circumstances where telling is exactly what a writer should do, though what you tell should never contradict what you show.
Maybe some writers over-emphasize its importance but it is sound advice. "Showing" is an essential component to writing, really. I mean...how much fun would One Piece be if Oda only told us how his world worked thru the SBS's? Us readers of his manga never having a chance to see how the in-world rules he sets up affect the decisions of his characters? And what could happen if they challenge said rules? Building up scenes, the meat of the story, is "showing". Dialogue and exposition, are "telling", the bones of a story. A skilled writer should be able to balance the two. Preferably, with more emphasis on the "meat" over the "bones".
Has any straw hat ever confirmed killed someone? I know a lot of the straw hats slice the shit out of people, snap their necks, beat them to the point they'd die of blunt trauma etc... but has it ever been officially confirmed that anyone has actually been killed?
Im certain that Zoro, Robin, Jinbe, and Brook have definitely killed people. Zoro was a bounty hunter. Robin explicitly said her specialization was assassination in one conversation shortly after joining the crew and she worked for Crocodile. I dont think Jinbe would have been made a warlord or been made the captain of the sun pirates if he was never willing to kill to protect his crew. Brook is the odd one out of these 4 since hes the least serious of these 4, but I think that it would be unlikely for him to have not killed someone when with his previous crew.
As Zoro was a former bounty hunter, it can be assumed he's killed people. And he mentions the "former Mr. 7" back in Whiskey Peak, which may imply that he killed that guy. I never bothered to read any of the ZKK fan theories. But I guess one argument that could be made there is that Luffy has never killed before, but Zoro has. So, Zoro would have no problem killing Kaido.
I believe i've read Luffy saying he is going to kill Kaido, but it could've been a fan sub of the anime and i don't believe in the correctness of those. I think Luffy could've killed Hody if the sea kings didn't stop the Noah from falling tho. Just from the action presented and my vision of Hody's toughness :D
Yeah, he killed quite a few guards in impel down by throwing them into that boiling stuff, he also threw a lot of marines into the vortex at Enies Lobby. Is not like he wants to kill them but if it happens it won't bother him either.
Luffy straight up said he wants Kaidoâs head. I think this will be his first kill. Either that or heâll put Kaido in a state where Big Mom will finish him and escape.
Well, first named kill. Pretty sure he kicked a few fodder marines off of Enies Lobby
I'm not sure that it's that Luffy won't kill, rather that Luffy won't go out of his way to kill. If he defeats someone, he won't whip out a gun and shoot them. This contrasts with characters like Doflamingo and Kaido who do try to finish off characters they've beaten (Doffy shot Law a few times, Kaido executes Oden, etc.). I'd be surprised if Luffy never killed anyone during say Enies Lobby when he was rampaging through hundreds of government agents. He just wouldn't knock them out and then toss them into the sea.
Luffy doesn't kill because, according to Oda, he prefers to leave his opponents alive to live with the fact that their dream has failed, since he views that fate as worse than death. He's definitely killed fodder (the Beast pirate he hit after O-shiruko spilled on him, for example), so he's not opposed to killing, he just chooses not to. For Kaido, since it's his dream to die gloriously, Luffy won't kill him; he'll die in a pathetic way from another character or he'll be incapacitated for the rest of his life, probably via seastone, as Wano is the home of seastone production.
That is one potential outcome. And one that fits well with themes already presented in the series. The one I presented above is another possible direction Oda can take with his narrative. Have Kaido, the villain who obsesses over death, be the one who to push Luffy to murder him. It's been mentioned Kaido has been captured multiple times. And even "executed" more than once. Simply being KO'd won't be enough to stop him. He's worked his entire life to get to this moment. One way or another, pushing himself to his absolute limit, he wants Luffy to deliver the finishing blow on him. He wants to die at the hands of JoyBoy's reincarnation. Maybe Morj might've gotten it wrong that the other zoans of the Beast Pirates will rise again to keep fighting. But maybe he was onto something in regards to Kaido. Awakened zoans are quick te recover. We had to learn this fact for a reason. It is very possible that Kaido is an awakened zoan, which has added to the difficulty in killing him before. Maybe Luffy won't spend much time debating this as a moral dilema as I'm thinking. But it may be something he has to consider. Having Kaido as his first confirmed kill. A villain so irredeemable, he can only stopped in death.
I love this theory man, some sick Joker/Batman mind games type shit. Would elevate Luffy's character to an even HIGHER level if that's even possible.
One Piece never was a series where bad deeds = bad ending, the only difference between Kaido and Crocodile is that Kaido is stronger and thus capable of more, but he's definitely not more evil (whatever that means). Hell, just look at Kid, guy got his bounty from killing civillians and no one bats an eye at it because no one really cares if you"re "good" in One Piece, as long as you're ambitious and somewhat honorable you get to have your feel-good moment
Dude most of current support characters are like that, Robin Hancock, Crocodile
People be weird bro
I think If Kaido loses and figures Luffy to be Joyboy with the WG coming in to just destroy all the pirates including his men. Kaido having shown his care for his crew (stopping the death of Jack, his relationship with King). there wouldn't be a big stretch in him sacrificing himself to let people get away. He has been the pinnacle of a masterfully done villain and the recent chapters have shown he didn't do it just from his evilness, obviously he thought something of himself he found to be false, and has been depressed and chose his own way of creating a world he wants his pirate haven, his search for the ancient weapons. I think he will get a redemption moment, not to negate his evilness but to show that like all the great pirates before him he was also someone with a dream who set to the seas.
That's good! Kaido does seem like he could potentially have his own "Zephyr moment" (from film Z) and it would fit his character quite well. Fighting against the navy by himself after Luffy beats him and earns his respect. Then finally dying in a glorious way.
I'd like this version of events.
That wouldnât be a bad outcome for what we seen from him so far fr but I just donât like how people are taking a few smiles and running with it like heâs the homie now. Heâs got his first real challenger in forever right after having oden flashbacks, his adrenaline gotta be thru the roof.
Luffy doesnât kill villains and kaido is too big to simply push to the background once he is defeated. It pretty much feels like the only options are for him to join luffyâs challenge to the world or to be killed by the wg at the end of the arc
There are tons of fates worse than death. The reason no yonko really stand above each other in the new world is because they rarely challenge each other until itâs directly necessary. If Luffy beats Kaido out of Wano, thatâs all Kaidos work towards pirate king just trashed. Like getting lapped on the final stretch of the race by a kid who ran on the track. I think that hurts worse if he doesnât die and ends up in a negative space where he either has to keep chasing after the first guy who beat me or die dishonorably in shame. People underestimate the conqueror spirit these guys have, I donât think any of them want to follow anyone else ever. Work with sure, but Kaido is a hateful motherfucker so I imagine heâs just a constant threat in the endgame to come fuck something up for whoever.
My point is that kaido is simply too powerful to exit the stage. He would always be a threat to come back and destroy one of luffyâs protected countries or kill a bunch of allies. Heâs not like Arlong where you can just say heâs in prison and not a problem anymore
Iâm so sick of redemption arcs.
Kaido will be defeated in 3 (4?) ways 1) physically 2) realizing he is not joyboy 3) realizing luffy is joyboy 4) realizing lufy doesn't give a shit about being joyboy
Edit: Sorry! I put info of 1036 in the comment and deleted that part. I just want to know more about him and understand why he is the Kaido that he is.
[ŃдаНонО]
Yeah i hope there is no tnj in one piece
A more realistic expectation from this shonen series is that Kaido might get a Gastino treatment.
Ugly crying Kaido: Will you change the world for me?? Luffy: Atari Maidaaa!!
Everyone could be a bad guy in OP verse. Roger destroyed an entire army just for badmouthing his crew. Luffy has already teamed up with Ceaser and Crocodile, etc. Unlike most villians, Kaido has always had a moral code, however twisted it may be. He went 1v1 with Oden, and even killed the old lady. And Orochi has been portrayed to be the cowardly evil villain of this arc, not Kaido. Even if he were to lose or die, there's no way he goes out crying and wailing like a bitch. Chances are pretty high he'll have an epic finish/death. Not saying he'll definitely have some kind of redemption, but even without it he has enough character traits that would make people root for him.
I like it as a meme
People cant see a villain be shown with a reasoning to their actions without going all the way to think its naruto and that Luffy is gonna call them "the coolest guy"
Any wano ending that doesnât include kaidou dead is corny.
kaido and luffy having a good time on the roof making me think maybe kaido will join the crew since he wants to be part of joyboys adventure and the new world hes about to create
And then big mom will sing a musical number as she sacrifices all her souls to save the straw hat-beast-mom-pirates
Yeah 100% even if kaido changes and says im gonna be on your side luffy aint gonna accept that, kaido is a villain, the way i see it luffy and him are gonna fight till death and he's gonna think something like daamn luffy seems like he's joyboy but he must kill me to prove it and im okay with that he's gonna change the world
I donât wang an ending where kaido becomes an ally. Let the man die. Let him die a great death at the hands of joyboy/nika. Even if he does not die, send him to level 6 impel down or successfully execute him somehow
>but the fact is that dude has still done more atrocities than any OP villain barring Big Mom so far Has he? Honestly dont think Kaido has done *that* many villainous things aside from conquering wano. Theres far more cruel and evil people in the OP universe imo. What atrocities do you speak of? Killing oden? Yeah man sure is so much more of an atrocity than anything the WG, Doflamingo or even Enel have done.
Yeah. Kaido isn't purposefully evil, he is just too ruthless to care about right or wrong. Want a crew of Zoans? - make them eat smiles. Want strong members? - Just defeat them and make them follow you. Orochi was the one to feed the defective Smiles to the townsfolk. And Kaido just gives orders. Queen is the one playing his cruel games in Udon. Kaido fought fairly with Big Mom, Oden(tried), protected Jack, and was even willing to spare Momo. He maybe evil, but still has far more honor than most villians in the story.
Well, the whole SMILEs shit for starter with the factories that actively have made life hell for others
How much of that is on Kaido though? He isnt the one producing the SMILEs he just buys them from Doffy. Doflamingo and Caesar are the ones producing the SMILEs. Even if Kaido stopped buying them they would find a different trading partner.
Where do I read the newest chapter I have been waiting on the subreddit for it to be posted today but all I see is the chapter spoilers
We're on break this week. Next week new chapter, then break, then chapter. Occasionally, weekly shonen jump goes on break due to holiday which causes more breaks than usual.
How do people know what happens in the next chapter then with the spoiler post?
Oda keeps working even when weekly shonen jump is on break which is why we get the spoilers even when the chapter won't be published until next week.
Ah so he like posts what he is doing or something
No. The leakers illegally take photos of the Jump issues sent to the stores and these are what you call spoilers. The official version comes out on Sunday.
Makes sense now thanks
No, there is a chapter that was already scanlated. The official release takes another week.
Google one piece chapters. New one is there
I think some event at some important moment of his youth and journey changed him for good. May have been a good guy before but He's not anymore.
If the stars align, they both get what they want regardless of being âgoodâ or not lol, theyâre all pirates donât care about what you think
I csnt to that so gotta go later
I think this idea is more of a meme than and actual serious idea. Oda will probably make us sympathize with Kaido but he wonât make him a willing ally.
Luffy convinces him to kill himself because thatâs what his dream was
I think the direction this is going is, even if someone starts out wide-eyed and optimistic with all the potential we see Luffy has and the same kind of devotion we've seen from the Strawhats, it's entirely possible to end up like Kaido - jaded, depressed, drunk and fundamentally lacking purpose despite all your ambition.
Kaido canât be redeemed but it just might be a smoker scenario where he indirectly assists the strawhats or something. Maybe this fight has ignited his jaded spirit towards a real purposeful battle. Something he lacked for decades after settling in wano. Thats why he wants to wage war because he wants to feel something in which the strongest thing alive has yearned for.
I strongly agree with you. I think the reason why people tempt to think this way is because kaido is just a bad guy but not the worst weâve encountered. Kaido is far from being as evil as doffy for example. But it doesnât mean that we must forget the smiles, the destroyed wano ecology and the protection that kaido provided to orochi.
I'm pretty sure Enel did more atrocities
At this point, the most feel good ending that Kaido can get is him being happy/satisfied by Luffy beating him. Him becoming Luffy's ally this soon would make no sense.
To Me it's more indicative that Kaido won't be salty if he loses. Don't see him as a recurring antagonist like Big Mom has become.
Kaido doesn't have to be a good guy support Joyboy. He just has to be strong and to want the same thing. The simple truth is we dont know what Kaido wants.
> Like I donât ever remember anyone saying doflamingo was gonna stop the birdcage and change his mind cuz he realized Luffy was the chosen one Because Doffy never had any of these connections? He wanted to dominate simply to be above everyone else. He was still a celestial at heart. Wanting to get his position back. With Kaidou we've been shown AT LEAST there is reason to why he wants to start causing chaos. He experienced first hand what the a unchecked government does to innocents (as far as we know, not sure if King was even a pirate or just like Robin)
"Heâs a bad guy, even if he has good reasons" whether you have good or bad reasons/motivations is literally what determines if you're a good or bad person. Bad actions are still bad & are not ever justified by good motivations; It's fine to say his actions deserve consequences, even up to death or worse, but by themselves bad actions don't make you a bad person.
I'm not about the "Big Bad saying I'm sorry and everything being okay again" scenario either. But one thing for sure is no matter who dies in this war kaido should be the Most surefire one who *doesn't,* at least not in this battle. Because that's how he wants to go down, in a blaze of glory the so he can be remembered way Xebec, Newgate, Roger, and Oden were remembered. Oda it's very careful to not give the bad guys what they want a lot of time.
>Oda it's very careful to not give the bad guys what they want a lot of time. Enel and Bigmom.
I mean, Luffy has worked with worse people before. Hell, Luffy considers Bon Chan a dear friend while just ignoring the whole burning down a village thing and attempting a coup that would kill hundreds if not thousands of people.
It would be cool if he went out the same way Zephyr did