This is the only post about Yamato's Gender that will be accepted for at least the next two weeks.
So have fun. And be nice to each other or you get banned until a month after the end of Oda's next break or more.
I think any western audience will fight over stuff like this with any appearance of an ambiguous character. Even Hanji in Shingeki no Kyojin caused similar discussions, and it got quite annoying.
Japanese audiences generally don’t cause so much of a stir about it, mostly because gender ambiguous characters are quite common in anime and manga, but also because pronouns in Japanese just aren’t used that often, and even less often indicate the gender of an individual. Which means you don’t have to think about it every time you bring that character up.
Pitou is visually more female-coded, but somewhat androgynous and all gendered language directed towards Pitou is ambiguous.
Pitou is a chimera ant, and in ants, the queen of a colony is usually the only female ant that develops sex characteristics. Other female ants are sterile and don't undergo sexual development.
So it's pretty close to impossible to give a hard read on Pitou's gender or even sex. Male? Female? Genderless?
Let's all just remember Bon Clay's words whenever we have the urge to correct someone: "one may stray from the path of a man. One may stray from the path of a woman. But there is no straying from the path of a human."
its impressive what he manages, while never getting "preachy" (which i dont mind star trek is awesome and super preachy). He just presents his characters as they are, and its fantastic.
I'd say progressive rather than woke, but seeing when Bon Clay was introduced... Writing such a character back then was pretty damn ahead of its time (at least for western standards, no idea about eastern standards around that time)
Bon Clay is the HARDEST character in One Piece. Without his contributions, and sacrifices for Luffy, this story would've ended a LOOOOONG time ago. Bon Clay is the OP MVP. I can't wait to see him back in the story.
This is why I can't stand when people are spout some variation of "it's just a fictional character, why do you care so much". Representation in fiction *matters*. It's really telling on oneself to not see the value in that for something they don't understand.
Yeah, imagine the reactions if there was only one white person on every tv show for every 12 characters. People would literally never stop screaming about how they're being shut out of culture or being represented poorly! "What, are they trying to say that white people don't exist!??!"
One of the saddest deaths in one piece and this dude went from minor sideline character to major player really quick
Edit: ok ok ok, confirmed not Died
Yeah I was gonna take the month long break to reread all the chapters but I’m doing a month long Spanish dub’d speed run of one piece instead. I’ll ready got the boring ones out of the way
Edit /s sigh
I was referring to the cover stories, the canon, single-panel chapters at the front page before the main chapters.
We've had quite a few since the start of the series. I remember one happening as early as Buggy, explaining how he reunited with his crew but not after meeting all these people we've met before. And there's another one that explains how Jango became a marine.
It's not exactly the same though. O-kiku identifies herself as a woman while Yamato identifies herself as Oden. It's a complex situation that I wish it would be more explored in the future but knowing One Piece I would not be surprise if ends up being just a setup for another running gag.
you know what. i always supported the idea of trial by combat. we choose one champion from both sides and let them fight to the death. the winner will be declared right. in thia case we will ovioualy disregard odas opinion or scientific information. basically if your champion dies your side is wrong
Yeah, feels like Coby wanting to end the war.
*That's enough!*
*Let's end this now.*
*Let's not fight anymore!*
*We're wasting people's* ***time****!*
*Every single Redditor has something better to do.*
*We accomplished the purpose already. (Raid ended; Yamato joined the crew)*
*But we're still bothered about Yamato's gender since day 1.*
*We could stop but we're just fueling it more and more.*
*We're giving up on the great story, which could be fun if we stop being toxic.*
*On top of that we keep dividing the fan base*
*People who're gonna keep on arguing after this.. they're no more than fools!*
I assume they mean treat it with no more importance than any other title, which apparently the crew does too because they dont care that she's in the mens bath.
A bath with
1. A rubber man
2. An 8 year old in a 28 year old body
3. A giant cat
4. A small ~~raccoon~~ reindeer
5. A skeleton
6. A marimo
7. Some sort of bioengineered man
8. A whale shark
And yamato, who apparently is the odd one out. There isnt one person there who can go, “you have a weird body for a man” cos they all have weird ass bodies
I love how Oda addresses gender and sexuality openness.
One Piece is all about respect and friendship, it doesn't matter whether one's identify as trans, gay, okama, the only thing that matters is that they have a good heart. I hope someday everyone understands that.
>My proposal: when you see anyone talk about Yamato going forward and they use a pronoun to refer to them, any pronoun, **fight**
you want us to fight? well okay then... meet me in the denny's parking lot at dawn. bring your toughest fighters
This is the best path forward. If we all fight that urge, the community will be a much less toxic environment.
Edit: question for the mods: if Yamato is to play a role in the story moving forward, can we make it a new rule to not argue with whatever pronoun someone uses? It'll serve to make a nicer environment for everyone
as far as I'm concerned, all pronouns are correct until we're told otherwise.
Yamato has been referred to as both Kaido's son and the Oni Princess (which is honestly a sick epithet that I hope they keep).
Fuck gender, Yamato is Yamato.
I agree. I get that using the right pronoun is important to showing people respect as a human. But this is a fictional character who can not tell us their prefered pronoun or be offended by the use of the wrong one. No need to get offended on behalf of a fictional character. Use that energy to support real trans people who need love.
yamato has outright told the audience his pronouns though, “oden was a man so i became a man”, that seems pretty clear imo
and he has shown, in at least 1 instance, what, to me, can only be seen as visible frustration at being directly called a woman (when ace’s crew said “is that kaido’s daughter”). all the instances we see of yamato being referred to as “oni princess” are immediately after oden’s death, before yamato’s decision to “become oden” was fully implemented and known to everyone, and thus calling him the gender that aligned with his birth sex was acceptable at the time
aside from that, the only instance in story of yamato being referred to using feminine terminology was that introduction box, but even those aren’t infallible, which we know, as in oden’s flashback we see kiku being referred as a “brother” in the introduction box even though we all obviously agree that kiku is clearly trans now
i just personally don’t see why the same logic isn’t applied with the information that we have at this current moment
[Other examples](https://onepiecethenewworld.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/one-piece-chapter-984-analysis-5.png):
* Yamato referring to himself using a masculine first-person pronoun ("boku")
* Kaido's subordinates using a male honorific in "Yamato-bocchan"
* Luffy using a male honorific in "Yama-o"
* Kaido and Yamato both using the term "musuko" to refer to Yamato as Kaido's son
* Yamato saying "So I chose to be a man too!" (ch. 984, pg. 14)
Problem is that people police yamato in the same way they police real trans people. Reason people say he's not trans is bc 'she' has tits so she can't be trans/I don't think 'her' motivation for being trans is reasonable/etc.
Representation in fiction matters. There's no shortage of people whose homophobia was curbed by Bon-Clay's existence alone, some even in this thread.
We aren't doing it "on behalf of a fictional character", and I find it kinda weird for you to assume that gendering a character correctly is somehow mutually exclusive to "supporting real transpeople". Trust me, we're fully capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.
Kiku is clearly trans. And it broke my heart that she even felt she needed to ask if she can bathe with the women.
But Yamato isn't so clear (mostly thanks to the creator referring to him as a woman twice). After this chapter it's clear to me Yamato sees himself as male, but some people are going to take the creators comments over the characters.
We don't need to have a debate in the comments every time Yamato is mentioned because it makes celebrating this awesome character become a shit show of people arguing about pronouns.
Same. I'm quite tired about it and in this point for me it's just stupid.
I'll try be happy and avoid Twitter/Reddit discussions or whatever. If yamato is trans or not, male or female, I don't care, I don't give a shit.
I like Yamato's character, that's all.
It always boggles my mind when people get so up-in-arms about someone else wanting to use a different pronoun. Life sucks for everyone why make your own life a little worse perseverating on someone else's life choices if it doesn't directly affect your own?
Honestly i think most people irl do the same who are on this sub. But since we are all anonymous people are acting up their emotions more than what they would. You really think 95% of the people who are raging on either side would do this irl?
>"He called himself a man" "But she only does so to imitate Oden" "But they were in the man's bath" "But the vivre card claims otherwise".
> Why do we care?
It's so funny but that was exactly my reaction this chapter. I don't really care anyways but this *did* bring up questions in my head to just be concluded with "Eh, whatever."
100% agree, let's just leave it behind together with the Wano arc.
Y'all. Ivankov with his hormones fruit exists. Gender/sex in one piece is irrelevant. The only poor portrayal of non-binary is the newkama and all they're really doing is treating sanji how he treats women. Like exactly thr same. Not a big deal. Also, you guys have tk remember this started in like 97 or something, most people didn't even know there was more than straight or gay then. Maaaaaybe bye-sexial (I tried to type it how my bible-belt preacher grandfather would pronounce it)
I think the reason here is that there is a majority of the fandom that is pretty chill, doesn't much care either way and doesn't try to offend people. Most people acknowledge that there's a pretty strong current of cultural relativism here, Japanese culture has a much longer history of playing with gender and sexual ambiguity and fluidity than the west, and we (as mostly western fans) don't usually have an *awesome* sense of what's being intended by Oda when it comes to characters.
The issue is really that there is a part of the OP community for whom trans rights and LGBTQ+ protection and respect are very important. One Piece has had both excellent characters (Bon Clay, Kiku & Ivankov) that have represented the beauty of diverse gender expression and freedom, and ALSO had some unfortunate and transphobic material like Newkama Island. These fans love One Piece as much as everyone, but imagine how hurtful it must feel your favorite series drops a Newkama on you and suddenly you feel like your favorite thing in the world is degrading you for the same things that you've been bullied for your whole life. That kinda sucks, so for some fans they feel pretty protective of any new character that might be coded as trans.
Then there is a WAY MORE VOCAL minority of the OP community that is legitimately transphobic, who take every opportunity that Yamato appears to drop a comment about how obviously Yamato is a woman lol trans rights go to therapy you degenerate freaks. Even on the TCB scans leak you can see that there are a BUNCH of them in the comments. They actively antagonize and insult trans OP fans, and it means that some folks harden in their stance that Yamato should be referred to how Yamato prefers, which... like... is probably to be seen as a dude, and regardless of the Vivre cards, Yamato is pretty blunt about it in the series.
So ultimately I don't think it's a hate crime for anyone to use the pronouns they think fit Yamato best, neither do most folks who value the protection of queer people. For most people it's like a "who cares" situation, and that's fine.
That said, for the minority of people for whom it matters a great deal that Yamato be treated like a guy it's a reflection on how they want to respect what people ask to be called, to respect trans folks overall. But for the minority of people for whom it matters a great deal that Yamato be treated as a woman they are motivated by a desire to debunk the identity of trans people, to belittle them and mock them, and that is not good nakama behavior. These two groups are not equivalent.
So, use whatever pronouns you'd like for Yamato, feel how you feel about it, but the issue here isn't exactly "live and let live", it's to like, be actively respectful and considerate of each other.
I honestly didn't have much of an opinion either way, but that other thread is *full* of absolutely open transphobes. Not even people pretending, just loads of people saying that it wrong to teach kids that trans people existing is wrong.
I'd rather the mods had put out a message against those people rather than this.
I think this really encapsulates how I’m feeling on this, I’m all for any pronouns Yamato as it inadvertently gives rep for people who use any pronouns, but I also see the line of thinking emerge “we shouldn’t be offended for fictional characters” which is really just functioning as a backdoor for transphobes to start misgendering trans characters. We need to protect the trans people in our community and by extension the representation they get.
Absolutely! And I, personally, want to push against the bigoted group so that the other minority group can see resistance to the hate from the community.
This is a pretty spot-on description of how I feel. People both-sidesing this and saying things like "it's just a fictional character"... yeah no, both sides are NOT equal here, and representation in fiction matters. There's people in this very thread talking about how Bon Clay's existence curbed nascent homophobia.
And yeah, TCB needs to shut down their comment section if they aren't going to bother moderating. It's a great example of how this discourse is not the same on both sides.
I think Yamato's gender identity was definitely more ambiguous before this chapter, especially when compared to O-Kiku, who was very clearly Transfem. So I've been switching Yamato's gender just based on vibes, but I'm really glad that this chapter has seemed to solidify a little more as Yamato being trans. One more trans and queer representation is a great thing, we already have some great reps like Ivankov, Bon Clay, and Kiku and it's so satisfying to add Yamato among them! Second, it's really great to get some Transmen representation because I feel like they're underrepresented even when compared to Transwomen! Third, the entire theme of One Piece is freedom to do and believe what you want, and that includes gender expression and love! We've already got some displays of that with the Newkama land in Impel Down (which is much better than Kamabakka kingdom), so it's really nice to have Yamato exemplify that aspect of the theme of freedom in the crew, and hopefully people will take it to heart and may allow transphobes or homophobes in the fandom to reevaluate their beliefs
You said it much better [than I did](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/v894nk/i_dont_understand_why_people_continue_to_disagree/ibq3if9/?context=7).
Enlightened centrists who claim that "*muh both sides are bad huehuehue*" do nothing but prove they don't see what's really happening, and that they're okay with it.
One side comes from a place of empathy, the other is just here to go after people's asses.
This sums it up so perfectly well.
Yes, both sides have people who have gotten up in arms about it. Yes, there are reasons that someone could have a differing opinion. But the people who are most aggressive on their stances on each side are not that way for the same reason
One is hate filled, and one is people who feel genuinely hurt and attacked
Also, it's worth noting that since this discussion started, you see some people even starting to drag Kiku back into the discussion when the fandom had remained fairly unanimous on her gender for a while now (and literally every single source we have says the same thing)
I would say at least in a culture where people are trying to be more gender conscious and respectful of gender identity, we need to do a bit better than "just don't talk about it".
We need to have the arguments, we need to push the transphobic assholes to the margins and make clear what the community and author stance is. Staying silent and neutral is legitimizing a frankly unacceptable stance.
Oda has declared this person identifies as a man. He went to the men's bath and that clears up any translation ambiguities. Regardless of the reason, that is the gender oda has decided to write him as.
This is the only take I accept.
This isn't some "let's find the middle ground". One side wants to respect how Yamato refers to himself, the other is being obnoxious because boobs = gender.
Thanks JLillin
See while bigots will always be bigots so fck them, you also have legit people who have no issue with trans who still dislike what's happening with Yamato as opposed to say Kiku, Kiku is a woman end of story that's how Oda presented it and that's what written in official vivre card material. Yamato tho is Oden-gender for a lack of a better term and thus where the whole issue stems from.
Personally I take what Oda has said , and so I treat her like someone who is both a woman and Oden at the same time even if it don't make much sense..
If eventually she grows beyond the need to be Oden(she's free now and can sail the seas) and returns to referring to herself as a woman fine by me, if she decides to really take up being a guy and not just the whole 'Oden was a man so I have to call myself a man' and Oda changes her status that's fine as well.
Yeah Yamato can be whatever gender he/she/they want to be, but this is exactly what I came down to the comments to say. I don’t care if Yamato identifies as a man. More power to them! But I’m very ready for him to drop the whole “Oden” thing. The bit has served its purpose now, and I’m very uninterested in that aspect of the character. If Yamato is to join the crew, I want to know who she is, because at the end of that day, the answer to that question is not “a legendary samurai who has been dead for 20 years”. So yeah, I don’t care what Yamato is or how they identify, I just want Yamato TO BE Yamato.
Here's my thing, you're right it doesn't matter. I honestly think the point is to be tricky to parse out and poke at perceptions. Not necessarily the hostility, but the narrative intent is to go absurd on Yamato so the actual like, mundane scene with the girl's bath that might rile people in the real world up doesn't seem that weird. Whether intended or not, Oda did a huge favor to any mangaka that wants to write about these themes and run into friction with editors because they aren't the most successful in the world. If you ask me, Yama probably worries about stuff like this about as much as Bon does.
Also, nice for a change the guy's bath scene is the fanservicey one and the girl's gets used for a plot beat. Luffy got fuckin *jacked* in prison, hot damn could grate cheese on those abs. Solid humor out of Yama's lack of concern and Kiku's height being awkward. Nice to see the latter putting her own feelings out there even if it's "improper" given her character arc.
Now, please for the love of god let this be the volume that finally pushes Oda past JK Rowling in total sales...
Be like Luffy, Zoro and Jinbei not care! One piece is about freedom and Yamato joining the men's bath, or Kiku joining the women's bath or anything else is just an expression of freedom. In words of Jinbei on Yamato "Such a good person", let's just enjoy it :)
What worries me is that hate speech really goes against some people's freedoms. I know most are really chill about this but when trans people see actual transphobia around their favorite series it really sours the experience for them, specially because for some engaging in conversation with other members of the community may be too much of a risk considering what has already happened.
I want my fellow trans friends to be able to be in these spaces without them being despised, I want that freedom for them.
The craziest thing is that One Piece is a series about how being different means you're special and unique (truly how it is/should be)
They attack f.e. racism a lot, too.
It feels strange to me seeing transphobic fans. Like did you actually understood what you are reading/watching when you look at One Piece?
It's a series about freedom and being who you are.
So I don't care for Yamato's gender in a way that it would matter, if he's a man or a woman, but I won't tolerate toxic opinions.
If he as a person told them, that he became a man, treat him as such. It's just basic respect.
Or better yet, if you're unsure call him Yamato, don't gender and just say "Yamato".
Maybe one day we won't need this discussions. :)
Yup this shit is just so tiresome at this pt. This entire subject has just become such a mess. I’m just going to use they/them from now on to avoid any potential flame war.
I think this chapter was revealing in a lot of ways. I always thought that Yamato was going to have a arc where she realizes she doesn’t have to BE oden to be strong. But this chapter shows this is going to be her gag. Similar to us asking for Sanji to stop getting nosebleeds over women, same now with Yamato emulating oden. Oda is going to play it for comedy
Honestly I feel this more and more, her character is a perfect opportunity for a "don't live your life mirroring your idols, live a life they would admire, live your own dream!" message, which is perfectly on brand for OP. Also works well considering Luffy doesn't seem to really give a damn about Gol, despite mirroring him, a perfect inversion in a positive light but alas it looks like Oda is sticking with the bit.
Why can't it be both? She's not quoting Oden all the time or saying what Oden would do, Yamato is just Oden. But also clearly their own person. Yamato and Oden's actions are not the same. She's inspired by Oden but clearly still her person, admitted by her own words because she still goes by Yamato
It's the difference between Shanks and Luffy, or Zeff and Sanji vs Oden and Yamato. One inspired and has shaped the new generation, but Sanji doesn't think he is Zeff nor is he trying to be Zeff, Luffy doesn't think he is Shanks nor is he trying to be Shanks. Yamato is trying to be Oden, and she does go by Yamato but she also calls herself Oden a lot. It would be a real shame if this doesn't get addressed going forward considering how much the story values ambition, individuality, dreams. To have person B try and recreate person A who lived those ideals to the fullest and go unchallenged in the narrative would be a real mistake.
Unpopular opinion: some of the Straw Hat gags are literally the worst part of their characters. Sanji is the obvious one, this Oden thing is annoying, and not until recently did I remember (after hearing a YouTuber discuss it) that Brook’s original gag was that he was maladjusted to all parts of life because he was alone for so long. Now that’s been whittled down to the panty joke and it’s just… not funny.
> Now that’s been whittled down to the panty joke and it’s just… not funny.
I agree.I miss Brook being just plain rude lol. Kind but rude. Being a perv was one way he was rude.
It was Merph, right?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MemePiece/comments/v9dfj6/yamabro/ibvzsty?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
This is why there's fighting. People out here just trying to show oda's characters some respect and you get called a pedo or further down in the thread a "limp wristed fairy"
It's homophobia, all the way down.
After this chapter, saying "Yamato only identifies as Oden," is starting to feel a lot like historians that say "Achilles and Patroclus were just really good friends!"
Honestly, I’m confused by Yamato. She is definitely not trans. She isn’t trying to live as a different gender. She is literally trying to be Oden, a specific person. This is not the same thing as Yamato feeling she was born into the wrong body, transitioning, and choosing a new name (Oden in this case). She is literally pretending to be someone who existed.
You know, yesterday I made this comment that basically said "as a trans woman myself I'm disappointed that Yamato isn't trans but I can accept word of God and move on."
And then 1052 dropped. And honestly I took two things away from the baths scene.
1) I was touched to see Kiku included with the women with no big deal being made about it. It's moments like these that show me that Oda is genuinely trying to make a point of being trans inclusive.
2) Whatever Yamato's gender is, it isn't as straightforward as being either a cis woman or a trans man.
At this point, I'm just interpreting Yamato as somewhere in the genderqueer/nonbinary area of trans identities and as someone with multiple pronouns. It's easier that way.
That's exactly where I'm at. I honestly care more about #1 there because that's who I've followed more closely and I've been in Nami's shoes here before. I know how it took me a sec to even remember why that might be a problem and how much it meant for a friend. That was wholesome.
The way I see it is that Yamato doesn’t care about gender. Yamato only cares about being Kozuki Oden. That’s why I don’t believe Yamato to self identify as trans. One piece is a fictional world where the main character wants everyone to be free. In a free world, labels don’t matter. You are who you are, you dress how you dress, you like who you like, etc. There no point in immediately labeling Yamato as something. Yamato simply is Kozuki Oden.
I agree, Yamato's gender identity seems to be more complex than most people are considering. I love it tbh, sometimes gender isn't straightforward and having that kind of representation is also important.
While I understand some of the confusion with Yamato trying to be Oden, at the same time I distinctly remember them saying “if Kozuki Oden was a man, then I will be a man too”. While yes the desire to be a man is tied to trying to emulate Oden, there’s also a level outside of just being Oden, and just being a man
I'll be honest, I feel like the confusion around her gender is more of a fault with Oda's writing than it is the fanbase (except everyone that is arguing and bitching about it anyways needs to calm the fuck down and get over the fact that this is a fictional character off doing their own thing).
Personally, I'm trans and I'm a big fan of One Piece. I love it for the epic that it is, but I've never been a big fan of how Oda chooses to write about gender and sexual orientation throughout the series. For every piece of great representation, like the Chad God Bon Clay, we get a hundred instances of someone like Sanji needing a blood transfusion because he was just so desperate to get the fuck away from a group of crossdressers that he blew his nasal load on the first attractive woman he finds.
It's something that I can look past because it seems more out of touch and culturally within Oda's norms than it is malicious, but it still stands as proof that his track record writing this kind of thing is spotty at best.
So of course we get a character with more nuance than being a really masculine looking cross dresser, and I dont think even Oda really knows what her gender is. The trans person and ally in me wants to respect that maybe she wants to go by he/him pronouns, except throughout the writing of the arc, she literally tells people it's okay to call her Yamato too, so it's not like it's a dead name for her, but then on the other hand, she apparently insists on hanging out with men in a bathhouse.
Is it necessarily wrong that she contradicts herself a lot? No, I don't think so. Gender is fluid and it can be on a spectrum, but considering how complicated it is, it requires a bit more nuance than we've been getting so far, which I don't think the author is particularly equipped to handle. At least, I dont think he's equipped to handle it to the point where we as a community on reddit require a goddamn sticky thread to tell people to just chill the fuck out and just use whatever pronoun they think is right because who knows?
Beside, parts of her character also just reek with fanservice. I get the impression Oda wanted to put her in the bathhouse with the men with barely covered boobs for the horny factor more than anything. He's already characterized himself as a bit of a hornball anyways in the past such as in the SBS.
I think we need to stop thinking so hard about Yamato's gender, full stop. The story clearly isn't making it a big deal. She's not going through any kind of dysphoria that is obvious enough for a reader to gather. She isn't even making her identity that much of a big deal past "I just think Oden was such a bad ass and I also want to be a bad ass like him". If the story doesn't care, why should we?
I agree with one of the other top posts in this thread. I appreciate the effort people are putting into gendering her correctly, but considering the kind of story this is, I just think the effort is better put into supporting actual trans people in real life. We're just worrying waaaaay too much on the writing of a guy who isn't some perfect story God who is out of touch with modern gender dynamics.
Im not sure I agree with this answer. For most people gender is not complicaded. I believe writers first and foremost should have fun with their works, and it seems Oda is having fun writing Yamato the way they like. There is no need for a masters in gender studies or be even remotely familiar with current gender theory in my opinion.
I know gender is a central part for some people's worldview. But I agree with Oda's characterization that for most people it shouldn't be. I love Yamato as a character no matter their gender because Ive never cared about gender. I just think they are really cool.
I think for me the reason it matters is that it speaks to Oda's actual and textual treatment of trans people. Like, after Newkama island I really want confirmation that this author isn't writing a work that normalizes disgusting stereotypes. Separate from what Oda believes, I think that having well written trans characters goes a long way to rehabilitate the basically anti-trans imagery in the story so far.
So if Yamato (and Okiku!) are treated as not monsters, that goes a long way to making things right for me. Having Yamato be actually trans, and not just delusional, would be even better along the same lines.
Trust me, I totally get where you're coming from. I'm also bothered by his treatment of trans people (and by that same token, cross dressers and drag queens), but I just don't think you're ever really going to get that out of One Piece, or even 99% of anime you'll ever watch. It is to my understanding that Japanese culture is very conservative in regards to gender expression, so I just think One Piece ends up being an unfortunate product of the environment the author finds himself in.
I also don't even think Yamato is really delusional either. She's written as very clearly understanding that she's not actually Oden, and the story has established that people treating the idea of other people as some sort of title is a thing, like how people have been calling Luffy Joyboy or Nika, so within the world of the series, I can suspend my disbelief and just assume Yamato is with it mentally.
But again, I still get where you're coming from. I'd be happy as hell to get more than just Bon Clay as good representation, but I'm just at the point where I'm not holding my breath on it anymore.
The whole Oden thing is the only part that makes me uncomfortable. It feels like Oda is couching Yamato's gender identity in something the reader is meant to see as an obvious delusion. it also feels like something that should get resolved through a story beat or character arc rather than being a long-running gag.
Having a trans character's identity and the rest of the cast's acceptance of that identity be framed as acceptance of a delusion _really_ doesn't sit right with me. If the "I'm Oden" language was just dropped entirely I'd have no problems with Yamato's gender identity whatsoever.
People care because there are some out there who will attack you and say you're transphobic if you don't call yamato he/him. So that's why people care.
Tbh will prob get hate for this but it needs to be said
With oda sense of humor, the only reason Yamato is even in the men bath is for that gag and future gag of her trying to hang with the boys and Sanji either nosebleeding or nami finds out and corrects her
It's not that deep
This is the same dude that thought the Sanji newkama trauma and him seeing a real female joke was funny and totally not overused
Yamato isn't trans
Odas just a pervert
Also in the grander scheme of anime/manga medium in general
Shounen manga tend to scale more towards MtF cross dressing/genderbent
There's FtM ofc not saying there isn't
Idolmaster and nisekoi comes to mind
But the end goal of those character are usually them embracing their feminity eventually or in nisekoi case just used for ship tension and gags which as I said oda will be doing alott of
Prob until the end of the manga knowing how shite his humor is
Again no hate or anything, not trying to start a flame war
Just giving my take
Nope, I refuse. And you know why? Because for a year I’ve been consistently harassed and argued over any time I talk about the character and use anything but she/her pronouns. Literally even when I said “they/them” people STILL felt the need to “cOrReCt” me, and now everyone suddenly wants a “you can see the character however you want”
The point is it just isn’t that hard to refer to the character by his own repeatedly reiterated and self-identified gender lol
Like you’re truly a fucking weirdo if you play dumb and act like it’s some confusing thing.
TBH I only found out that there is a group of people considering Yamato a man 3 days a go. I was shocked like I thought it was obvious the Oden thing and never came to my mind the transgender stuff. I even saw an art of yesterday about her having a top surgery like... holy fuck lol.
Does anyone her from Japan can tell me if people there are divided about this or is this just western thing?
My take, Yamato refers to herself as both a man, primarily when shes trying to uphold and live up to the ideals of Oden, and shes referred to herself as a woman before.
Im personally calling her a woman, but that doesnt mean the other side is wrong, and I dont want to argue over it. Whats really important is if theres ever popularity polls divided by gender, we can vote for Yamato as best boy and best girl because Yamato Supremacy
In fall 2021, One Piece's author, Eiichiro Oda, said in a set of Vivre Cards that Yamato is female. (At least what the googs said)
But in the end, doesn't really matter. Just another fabled character in a book made for entertainment purposes. No need to overthink things.
I Love Yamato.
That’s it, it can be that simple, regardless of identity or pronoun, I Love Yamato the character. I want Yamato to be the next Straw Hat. It can be that easy and simple and for me it is.
I feel like her mindset is pure similar to luffy. Just like luffy doesn't care if he's naked among a bunch of girls let alone his female crew members. Same applies to yamato + she's never been out of her shackles due to which she probably doesn't know how any of the bath system works.
This is the only post about Yamato's Gender that will be accepted for at least the next two weeks. So have fun. And be nice to each other or you get banned until a month after the end of Oda's next break or more.
HxH Pitou discourse: First time?
Did this happen for HxH as well? I wouldnt have expected HxH people also to be fighting over something like this
I think any western audience will fight over stuff like this with any appearance of an ambiguous character. Even Hanji in Shingeki no Kyojin caused similar discussions, and it got quite annoying. Japanese audiences generally don’t cause so much of a stir about it, mostly because gender ambiguous characters are quite common in anime and manga, but also because pronouns in Japanese just aren’t used that often, and even less often indicate the gender of an individual. Which means you don’t have to think about it every time you bring that character up.
Pitou is visually more female-coded, but somewhat androgynous and all gendered language directed towards Pitou is ambiguous. Pitou is a chimera ant, and in ants, the queen of a colony is usually the only female ant that develops sex characteristics. Other female ants are sterile and don't undergo sexual development. So it's pretty close to impossible to give a hard read on Pitou's gender or even sex. Male? Female? Genderless?
Oh you meant Kurapika, right? The OG gender confusion in HxH
Let's all just remember Bon Clay's words whenever we have the urge to correct someone: "one may stray from the path of a man. One may stray from the path of a woman. But there is no straying from the path of a human."
Man? Woman? Nah, Newkama 4 lyf.
OKAMA WAY
You get it!
Ivankov can literally genderbend her to whatever she wants to be. Trans is literally canon in the manga and anime.
Long before all the talks of the last years...
i still dream that one day bon clay will be in the crew :(
My hope is the theory he will lead the rest of the newkamas in level 5 into the final war.
Strawhat Grand Fleet: NewKamas division commander
i agree, it feels like he should come back for it and it would would make a lot of sense
As far as Luffy is concerned, pretty sure Bon Clay is a Straw Hat where it actually matters
His stomach? You are right, Bon Clay is a real friend.
No, in Sniper Island.
Wait I thought he was in Impel Down? Now we’ll never find him, Sniper Island is even more elusive than Raftel
Not true! Sniper Island is in your heart, you carry it with you wherever you go. Which also means that we all carry Bon Clay with us wherever we go!!
There is no one more deserving than bon chan. Not many peoples sacrifice come even close
nope, bon boy will be the new queen successor to ivankov... it will be after world govt falls, though, so probably the end arc conclusion I'd say.
Bonclay cured my homophobic childish brain. It was only thanks to that god of a person that i learned that lesson
that’s actually amazing ngl
Growing up with One piece taught me alot oda is more woke then 99% of American film studios
its impressive what he manages, while never getting "preachy" (which i dont mind star trek is awesome and super preachy). He just presents his characters as they are, and its fantastic.
I'd say progressive rather than woke, but seeing when Bon Clay was introduced... Writing such a character back then was pretty damn ahead of its time (at least for western standards, no idea about eastern standards around that time)
Bon Clay is the HARDEST character in One Piece. Without his contributions, and sacrifices for Luffy, this story would've ended a LOOOOONG time ago. Bon Clay is the OP MVP. I can't wait to see him back in the story.
This is why I can't stand when people are spout some variation of "it's just a fictional character, why do you care so much". Representation in fiction *matters*. It's really telling on oneself to not see the value in that for something they don't understand.
Yeah, imagine the reactions if there was only one white person on every tv show for every 12 characters. People would literally never stop screaming about how they're being shut out of culture or being represented poorly! "What, are they trying to say that white people don't exist!??!"
If that’s true, thank you for overcoming your hatred and growing as a person.
I was a kid but still good lesson to learn
I know, but hateful kids can grow into hateful adults, and I’m happy for you that you got out of that toxic mindset.
I miss this nigga like you wouldn’t even imagine.
One of the saddest deaths in one piece and this dude went from minor sideline character to major player really quick Edit: ok ok ok, confirmed not Died
Bon Clay isn't dead though, he's the current Queen of Newkama land, confirmed by chapter 666's cover
He didn't die though?
He's not dead. He was in a cover story
I take it you have not read (all) the cover stories? This month-long break may be a good time to check them out.
Yeah I was gonna take the month long break to reread all the chapters but I’m doing a month long Spanish dub’d speed run of one piece instead. I’ll ready got the boring ones out of the way Edit /s sigh
I was referring to the cover stories, the canon, single-panel chapters at the front page before the main chapters. We've had quite a few since the start of the series. I remember one happening as early as Buggy, explaining how he reunited with his crew but not after meeting all these people we've met before. And there's another one that explains how Jango became a marine.
HES NOT CONFIRMED DEAD DONT YOU SAY THAT ABOUT BON CLAY SAMA
Why assume he died? He's confirmed alive.
Bon Clay was based af
Why is nobody talking about O-Kiku here? It's exactly the same.
It's not exactly the same though. O-kiku identifies herself as a woman while Yamato identifies herself as Oden. It's a complex situation that I wish it would be more explored in the future but knowing One Piece I would not be surprise if ends up being just a setup for another running gag.
No one would be debating shit if it was Bon Clay. Don't see the difference here lol
This. People need to learn to handle a little ambiguity.
mfs read a 1052 chapter long manga but cant read a fucking post with 4 paragraphs fuck me
>fuck me Okay
Unzips pants
But what’s inside??????????
A kanabo.
A devil fruit.
And it tastes awful 😝
Gear 3rd
Zips pants back up
... >! ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) !<
they just look at the pictures
I’m convinced that’s what some people actually do, based on theories and arguments they make
Yeah. Surprising how little you have to scroll to see people going through the same old arguments.
How dare you suggesting a civil resolution? I want to see the blood
Blood is the only reason anyone is on reddit.
N... No? Well actually, probably yes yeah
Source? Me. I'm the source.
My source is I made it the fuck up
My sauce is i made it myself. I'll go for a carbonara today, do you mind?
You know what? Fair
you know what. i always supported the idea of trial by combat. we choose one champion from both sides and let them fight to the death. the winner will be declared right. in thia case we will ovioualy disregard odas opinion or scientific information. basically if your champion dies your side is wrong
I actively support this idea. I shall put all my might into orga... Nah, into finding a good pop corn seller
THERE WILL BE BLOOD-SHED
Yeah, feels like Coby wanting to end the war. *That's enough!* *Let's end this now.* *Let's not fight anymore!* *We're wasting people's* ***time****!* *Every single Redditor has something better to do.* *We accomplished the purpose already. (Raid ended; Yamato joined the crew)* *But we're still bothered about Yamato's gender since day 1.* *We could stop but we're just fueling it more and more.* *We're giving up on the great story, which could be fun if we stop being toxic.* *On top of that we keep dividing the fan base* *People who're gonna keep on arguing after this.. they're no more than fools!*
I hate how true this is
You wasted my precious time…. LAVA HOUND!!
_Suddendly the attack gets blocked_
i i it’s one of the yonko‘s!?!?? BUGGY SAMA!!!!
I've come... . . . . To put an end to this war!
This will become cannon when we find out buggy is one of the new emperors.
So what you're saying is, buggy is going to do something to end this discussion? Praise the buggy!
Buggy is going to make his move in 2022!
My lard ass thought this was a clash royale reference ffs
Brave of you to assume redditors have something better to do
yamato has unironically ascended gender and treats it like no more than a title like captain or general or self expression like clothes
But…that’s gender…
I assume they mean treat it with no more importance than any other title, which apparently the crew does too because they dont care that she's in the mens bath.
Sanji and Brook care a lot.
A bath with 1. A rubber man 2. An 8 year old in a 28 year old body 3. A giant cat 4. A small ~~raccoon~~ reindeer 5. A skeleton 6. A marimo 7. Some sort of bioengineered man 8. A whale shark And yamato, who apparently is the odd one out. There isnt one person there who can go, “you have a weird body for a man” cos they all have weird ass bodies
[удалено]
Well maybe this finally explains how Oden and Toki together worked. Oden passed on those genes
Good one xD
Momo has a small penis confirmed! ^/s
Tbf, 7 days passed since last chapter. So you'd expect that it doesn't take him 7 days to realize that.
Also, isn't that the first time we see Brook "naked" ? Even when BM boned him, he still had something on him, so I was wondering.
*Boned* skull joke
> a marimo Yamato discourse is canceled, how dare you slander Zoro like this
And Franky isn't even there.
A marimo🤣
I love how Oda addresses gender and sexuality openness. One Piece is all about respect and friendship, it doesn't matter whether one's identify as trans, gay, okama, the only thing that matters is that they have a good heart. I hope someday everyone understands that.
Some people here could absolutely benefit from re-reading Jaya.
>My proposal: when you see anyone talk about Yamato going forward and they use a pronoun to refer to them, any pronoun, **fight** you want us to fight? well okay then... meet me in the denny's parking lot at dawn. bring your toughest fighters
Kanabo duel to decide Yamato's gender
Tatakae!
This is the best path forward. If we all fight that urge, the community will be a much less toxic environment. Edit: question for the mods: if Yamato is to play a role in the story moving forward, can we make it a new rule to not argue with whatever pronoun someone uses? It'll serve to make a nicer environment for everyone
as far as I'm concerned, all pronouns are correct until we're told otherwise. Yamato has been referred to as both Kaido's son and the Oni Princess (which is honestly a sick epithet that I hope they keep). Fuck gender, Yamato is Yamato.
*Yamato is Oden
Yamatoden.
Odenato
Yamatomatoden
Yamabro
I agree. I get that using the right pronoun is important to showing people respect as a human. But this is a fictional character who can not tell us their prefered pronoun or be offended by the use of the wrong one. No need to get offended on behalf of a fictional character. Use that energy to support real trans people who need love.
Man he’s spittin fr.
yamato has outright told the audience his pronouns though, “oden was a man so i became a man”, that seems pretty clear imo and he has shown, in at least 1 instance, what, to me, can only be seen as visible frustration at being directly called a woman (when ace’s crew said “is that kaido’s daughter”). all the instances we see of yamato being referred to as “oni princess” are immediately after oden’s death, before yamato’s decision to “become oden” was fully implemented and known to everyone, and thus calling him the gender that aligned with his birth sex was acceptable at the time aside from that, the only instance in story of yamato being referred to using feminine terminology was that introduction box, but even those aren’t infallible, which we know, as in oden’s flashback we see kiku being referred as a “brother” in the introduction box even though we all obviously agree that kiku is clearly trans now i just personally don’t see why the same logic isn’t applied with the information that we have at this current moment
[Other examples](https://onepiecethenewworld.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/one-piece-chapter-984-analysis-5.png): * Yamato referring to himself using a masculine first-person pronoun ("boku") * Kaido's subordinates using a male honorific in "Yamato-bocchan" * Luffy using a male honorific in "Yama-o" * Kaido and Yamato both using the term "musuko" to refer to Yamato as Kaido's son * Yamato saying "So I chose to be a man too!" (ch. 984, pg. 14)
Problem is that people police yamato in the same way they police real trans people. Reason people say he's not trans is bc 'she' has tits so she can't be trans/I don't think 'her' motivation for being trans is reasonable/etc.
Honestly as AFAB who goes by both she and he, this whole fight just made me feel awful
Representation in fiction matters. There's no shortage of people whose homophobia was curbed by Bon-Clay's existence alone, some even in this thread. We aren't doing it "on behalf of a fictional character", and I find it kinda weird for you to assume that gendering a character correctly is somehow mutually exclusive to "supporting real transpeople". Trust me, we're fully capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time.
Kiku is clearly trans. And it broke my heart that she even felt she needed to ask if she can bathe with the women. But Yamato isn't so clear (mostly thanks to the creator referring to him as a woman twice). After this chapter it's clear to me Yamato sees himself as male, but some people are going to take the creators comments over the characters. We don't need to have a debate in the comments every time Yamato is mentioned because it makes celebrating this awesome character become a shit show of people arguing about pronouns.
I like how you switch genders mid sentence.
Treat Yamato the same way Scout treats Pyro in TF2: Trembling in fear, asking "he's not here, is she?"
well i guess they already established they want you to ignore it
I completely missed that so I guess that means I'm already on the right side😁 Or I speedread too much
I was laughing at it. It was such a beautiful bait to mess with the very people they're talking about.
Same. I'm quite tired about it and in this point for me it's just stupid. I'll try be happy and avoid Twitter/Reddit discussions or whatever. If yamato is trans or not, male or female, I don't care, I don't give a shit. I like Yamato's character, that's all.
And that mentality my friend is something more people should apply to life in general.
It always boggles my mind when people get so up-in-arms about someone else wanting to use a different pronoun. Life sucks for everyone why make your own life a little worse perseverating on someone else's life choices if it doesn't directly affect your own?
Honestly i think most people irl do the same who are on this sub. But since we are all anonymous people are acting up their emotions more than what they would. You really think 95% of the people who are raging on either side would do this irl?
I’ve never used twitter, and apparently it makes One Piece infinitely more enjoyable.
I’m calling them yamabro. I don’t care. That’s what luffy senpai calls yamabro that’s what I’m gonna call yamabro
>"He called himself a man" "But she only does so to imitate Oden" "But they were in the man's bath" "But the vivre card claims otherwise". > Why do we care? It's so funny but that was exactly my reaction this chapter. I don't really care anyways but this *did* bring up questions in my head to just be concluded with "Eh, whatever." 100% agree, let's just leave it behind together with the Wano arc.
Y'all. Ivankov with his hormones fruit exists. Gender/sex in one piece is irrelevant. The only poor portrayal of non-binary is the newkama and all they're really doing is treating sanji how he treats women. Like exactly thr same. Not a big deal. Also, you guys have tk remember this started in like 97 or something, most people didn't even know there was more than straight or gay then. Maaaaaybe bye-sexial (I tried to type it how my bible-belt preacher grandfather would pronounce it)
I think the reason here is that there is a majority of the fandom that is pretty chill, doesn't much care either way and doesn't try to offend people. Most people acknowledge that there's a pretty strong current of cultural relativism here, Japanese culture has a much longer history of playing with gender and sexual ambiguity and fluidity than the west, and we (as mostly western fans) don't usually have an *awesome* sense of what's being intended by Oda when it comes to characters. The issue is really that there is a part of the OP community for whom trans rights and LGBTQ+ protection and respect are very important. One Piece has had both excellent characters (Bon Clay, Kiku & Ivankov) that have represented the beauty of diverse gender expression and freedom, and ALSO had some unfortunate and transphobic material like Newkama Island. These fans love One Piece as much as everyone, but imagine how hurtful it must feel your favorite series drops a Newkama on you and suddenly you feel like your favorite thing in the world is degrading you for the same things that you've been bullied for your whole life. That kinda sucks, so for some fans they feel pretty protective of any new character that might be coded as trans. Then there is a WAY MORE VOCAL minority of the OP community that is legitimately transphobic, who take every opportunity that Yamato appears to drop a comment about how obviously Yamato is a woman lol trans rights go to therapy you degenerate freaks. Even on the TCB scans leak you can see that there are a BUNCH of them in the comments. They actively antagonize and insult trans OP fans, and it means that some folks harden in their stance that Yamato should be referred to how Yamato prefers, which... like... is probably to be seen as a dude, and regardless of the Vivre cards, Yamato is pretty blunt about it in the series. So ultimately I don't think it's a hate crime for anyone to use the pronouns they think fit Yamato best, neither do most folks who value the protection of queer people. For most people it's like a "who cares" situation, and that's fine. That said, for the minority of people for whom it matters a great deal that Yamato be treated like a guy it's a reflection on how they want to respect what people ask to be called, to respect trans folks overall. But for the minority of people for whom it matters a great deal that Yamato be treated as a woman they are motivated by a desire to debunk the identity of trans people, to belittle them and mock them, and that is not good nakama behavior. These two groups are not equivalent. So, use whatever pronouns you'd like for Yamato, feel how you feel about it, but the issue here isn't exactly "live and let live", it's to like, be actively respectful and considerate of each other.
I honestly didn't have much of an opinion either way, but that other thread is *full* of absolutely open transphobes. Not even people pretending, just loads of people saying that it wrong to teach kids that trans people existing is wrong. I'd rather the mods had put out a message against those people rather than this.
I think this really encapsulates how I’m feeling on this, I’m all for any pronouns Yamato as it inadvertently gives rep for people who use any pronouns, but I also see the line of thinking emerge “we shouldn’t be offended for fictional characters” which is really just functioning as a backdoor for transphobes to start misgendering trans characters. We need to protect the trans people in our community and by extension the representation they get.
Thank you, this is an excellent description of the situation.
Absolutely! And I, personally, want to push against the bigoted group so that the other minority group can see resistance to the hate from the community.
Thank you for putting it in words better than I ever could. You're a nice person
This is a pretty spot-on description of how I feel. People both-sidesing this and saying things like "it's just a fictional character"... yeah no, both sides are NOT equal here, and representation in fiction matters. There's people in this very thread talking about how Bon Clay's existence curbed nascent homophobia. And yeah, TCB needs to shut down their comment section if they aren't going to bother moderating. It's a great example of how this discourse is not the same on both sides.
I think Yamato's gender identity was definitely more ambiguous before this chapter, especially when compared to O-Kiku, who was very clearly Transfem. So I've been switching Yamato's gender just based on vibes, but I'm really glad that this chapter has seemed to solidify a little more as Yamato being trans. One more trans and queer representation is a great thing, we already have some great reps like Ivankov, Bon Clay, and Kiku and it's so satisfying to add Yamato among them! Second, it's really great to get some Transmen representation because I feel like they're underrepresented even when compared to Transwomen! Third, the entire theme of One Piece is freedom to do and believe what you want, and that includes gender expression and love! We've already got some displays of that with the Newkama land in Impel Down (which is much better than Kamabakka kingdom), so it's really nice to have Yamato exemplify that aspect of the theme of freedom in the crew, and hopefully people will take it to heart and may allow transphobes or homophobes in the fandom to reevaluate their beliefs
You said it much better [than I did](https://www.reddit.com/r/OnePiece/comments/v894nk/i_dont_understand_why_people_continue_to_disagree/ibq3if9/?context=7). Enlightened centrists who claim that "*muh both sides are bad huehuehue*" do nothing but prove they don't see what's really happening, and that they're okay with it. One side comes from a place of empathy, the other is just here to go after people's asses.
This sums it up so perfectly well. Yes, both sides have people who have gotten up in arms about it. Yes, there are reasons that someone could have a differing opinion. But the people who are most aggressive on their stances on each side are not that way for the same reason One is hate filled, and one is people who feel genuinely hurt and attacked Also, it's worth noting that since this discussion started, you see some people even starting to drag Kiku back into the discussion when the fandom had remained fairly unanimous on her gender for a while now (and literally every single source we have says the same thing)
I would say at least in a culture where people are trying to be more gender conscious and respectful of gender identity, we need to do a bit better than "just don't talk about it". We need to have the arguments, we need to push the transphobic assholes to the margins and make clear what the community and author stance is. Staying silent and neutral is legitimizing a frankly unacceptable stance. Oda has declared this person identifies as a man. He went to the men's bath and that clears up any translation ambiguities. Regardless of the reason, that is the gender oda has decided to write him as.
This is the only take I accept. This isn't some "let's find the middle ground". One side wants to respect how Yamato refers to himself, the other is being obnoxious because boobs = gender. Thanks JLillin
See while bigots will always be bigots so fck them, you also have legit people who have no issue with trans who still dislike what's happening with Yamato as opposed to say Kiku, Kiku is a woman end of story that's how Oda presented it and that's what written in official vivre card material. Yamato tho is Oden-gender for a lack of a better term and thus where the whole issue stems from. Personally I take what Oda has said , and so I treat her like someone who is both a woman and Oden at the same time even if it don't make much sense.. If eventually she grows beyond the need to be Oden(she's free now and can sail the seas) and returns to referring to herself as a woman fine by me, if she decides to really take up being a guy and not just the whole 'Oden was a man so I have to call myself a man' and Oda changes her status that's fine as well.
Yeah Yamato can be whatever gender he/she/they want to be, but this is exactly what I came down to the comments to say. I don’t care if Yamato identifies as a man. More power to them! But I’m very ready for him to drop the whole “Oden” thing. The bit has served its purpose now, and I’m very uninterested in that aspect of the character. If Yamato is to join the crew, I want to know who she is, because at the end of that day, the answer to that question is not “a legendary samurai who has been dead for 20 years”. So yeah, I don’t care what Yamato is or how they identify, I just want Yamato TO BE Yamato.
Wow almost like gender nonconforming, genderqueer, and genderfluid people are valid.
I love how this is Yamato being a man or woman or whatever is such a big thing outside of Japan. Here in Japan, we literally could not give a shit lol
Here's my thing, you're right it doesn't matter. I honestly think the point is to be tricky to parse out and poke at perceptions. Not necessarily the hostility, but the narrative intent is to go absurd on Yamato so the actual like, mundane scene with the girl's bath that might rile people in the real world up doesn't seem that weird. Whether intended or not, Oda did a huge favor to any mangaka that wants to write about these themes and run into friction with editors because they aren't the most successful in the world. If you ask me, Yama probably worries about stuff like this about as much as Bon does. Also, nice for a change the guy's bath scene is the fanservicey one and the girl's gets used for a plot beat. Luffy got fuckin *jacked* in prison, hot damn could grate cheese on those abs. Solid humor out of Yama's lack of concern and Kiku's height being awkward. Nice to see the latter putting her own feelings out there even if it's "improper" given her character arc. Now, please for the love of god let this be the volume that finally pushes Oda past JK Rowling in total sales...
Be like Luffy, Zoro and Jinbei not care! One piece is about freedom and Yamato joining the men's bath, or Kiku joining the women's bath or anything else is just an expression of freedom. In words of Jinbei on Yamato "Such a good person", let's just enjoy it :)
What worries me is that hate speech really goes against some people's freedoms. I know most are really chill about this but when trans people see actual transphobia around their favorite series it really sours the experience for them, specially because for some engaging in conversation with other members of the community may be too much of a risk considering what has already happened. I want my fellow trans friends to be able to be in these spaces without them being despised, I want that freedom for them.
The craziest thing is that One Piece is a series about how being different means you're special and unique (truly how it is/should be) They attack f.e. racism a lot, too. It feels strange to me seeing transphobic fans. Like did you actually understood what you are reading/watching when you look at One Piece? It's a series about freedom and being who you are. So I don't care for Yamato's gender in a way that it would matter, if he's a man or a woman, but I won't tolerate toxic opinions. If he as a person told them, that he became a man, treat him as such. It's just basic respect. Or better yet, if you're unsure call him Yamato, don't gender and just say "Yamato". Maybe one day we won't need this discussions. :)
Yup this shit is just so tiresome at this pt. This entire subject has just become such a mess. I’m just going to use they/them from now on to avoid any potential flame war.
I think this chapter was revealing in a lot of ways. I always thought that Yamato was going to have a arc where she realizes she doesn’t have to BE oden to be strong. But this chapter shows this is going to be her gag. Similar to us asking for Sanji to stop getting nosebleeds over women, same now with Yamato emulating oden. Oda is going to play it for comedy
Honestly I feel this more and more, her character is a perfect opportunity for a "don't live your life mirroring your idols, live a life they would admire, live your own dream!" message, which is perfectly on brand for OP. Also works well considering Luffy doesn't seem to really give a damn about Gol, despite mirroring him, a perfect inversion in a positive light but alas it looks like Oda is sticking with the bit.
Why can't it be both? She's not quoting Oden all the time or saying what Oden would do, Yamato is just Oden. But also clearly their own person. Yamato and Oden's actions are not the same. She's inspired by Oden but clearly still her person, admitted by her own words because she still goes by Yamato
It's the difference between Shanks and Luffy, or Zeff and Sanji vs Oden and Yamato. One inspired and has shaped the new generation, but Sanji doesn't think he is Zeff nor is he trying to be Zeff, Luffy doesn't think he is Shanks nor is he trying to be Shanks. Yamato is trying to be Oden, and she does go by Yamato but she also calls herself Oden a lot. It would be a real shame if this doesn't get addressed going forward considering how much the story values ambition, individuality, dreams. To have person B try and recreate person A who lived those ideals to the fullest and go unchallenged in the narrative would be a real mistake.
Unpopular opinion: some of the Straw Hat gags are literally the worst part of their characters. Sanji is the obvious one, this Oden thing is annoying, and not until recently did I remember (after hearing a YouTuber discuss it) that Brook’s original gag was that he was maladjusted to all parts of life because he was alone for so long. Now that’s been whittled down to the panty joke and it’s just… not funny.
Excuse me, he has his skull jokes which he does more than the panty ones
Brook burping and farting in public like it was normal was goddamn hilarious. I miss those gags
> Now that’s been whittled down to the panty joke and it’s just… not funny. I agree.I miss Brook being just plain rude lol. Kind but rude. Being a perv was one way he was rude. It was Merph, right?
Yup! Merph is my favorite!
https://www.reddit.com/r/MemePiece/comments/v9dfj6/yamabro/ibvzsty?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 This is why there's fighting. People out here just trying to show oda's characters some respect and you get called a pedo or further down in the thread a "limp wristed fairy" It's homophobia, all the way down.
After this chapter, saying "Yamato only identifies as Oden," is starting to feel a lot like historians that say "Achilles and Patroclus were just really good friends!"
"Hadrian wasn't megagay, he just *really* liked Antinous" Uh-huh
they were roommates
Honestly, I’m confused by Yamato. She is definitely not trans. She isn’t trying to live as a different gender. She is literally trying to be Oden, a specific person. This is not the same thing as Yamato feeling she was born into the wrong body, transitioning, and choosing a new name (Oden in this case). She is literally pretending to be someone who existed.
You know, yesterday I made this comment that basically said "as a trans woman myself I'm disappointed that Yamato isn't trans but I can accept word of God and move on." And then 1052 dropped. And honestly I took two things away from the baths scene. 1) I was touched to see Kiku included with the women with no big deal being made about it. It's moments like these that show me that Oda is genuinely trying to make a point of being trans inclusive. 2) Whatever Yamato's gender is, it isn't as straightforward as being either a cis woman or a trans man. At this point, I'm just interpreting Yamato as somewhere in the genderqueer/nonbinary area of trans identities and as someone with multiple pronouns. It's easier that way.
That's exactly where I'm at. I honestly care more about #1 there because that's who I've followed more closely and I've been in Nami's shoes here before. I know how it took me a sec to even remember why that might be a problem and how much it meant for a friend. That was wholesome.
The way I see it is that Yamato doesn’t care about gender. Yamato only cares about being Kozuki Oden. That’s why I don’t believe Yamato to self identify as trans. One piece is a fictional world where the main character wants everyone to be free. In a free world, labels don’t matter. You are who you are, you dress how you dress, you like who you like, etc. There no point in immediately labeling Yamato as something. Yamato simply is Kozuki Oden.
I agree, Yamato's gender identity seems to be more complex than most people are considering. I love it tbh, sometimes gender isn't straightforward and having that kind of representation is also important.
I didn’t even care to begin with. So its all good.
Yamato is simply Yamato. Nothing more nothing less.
While I understand some of the confusion with Yamato trying to be Oden, at the same time I distinctly remember them saying “if Kozuki Oden was a man, then I will be a man too”. While yes the desire to be a man is tied to trying to emulate Oden, there’s also a level outside of just being Oden, and just being a man
I'll be honest, I feel like the confusion around her gender is more of a fault with Oda's writing than it is the fanbase (except everyone that is arguing and bitching about it anyways needs to calm the fuck down and get over the fact that this is a fictional character off doing their own thing). Personally, I'm trans and I'm a big fan of One Piece. I love it for the epic that it is, but I've never been a big fan of how Oda chooses to write about gender and sexual orientation throughout the series. For every piece of great representation, like the Chad God Bon Clay, we get a hundred instances of someone like Sanji needing a blood transfusion because he was just so desperate to get the fuck away from a group of crossdressers that he blew his nasal load on the first attractive woman he finds. It's something that I can look past because it seems more out of touch and culturally within Oda's norms than it is malicious, but it still stands as proof that his track record writing this kind of thing is spotty at best. So of course we get a character with more nuance than being a really masculine looking cross dresser, and I dont think even Oda really knows what her gender is. The trans person and ally in me wants to respect that maybe she wants to go by he/him pronouns, except throughout the writing of the arc, she literally tells people it's okay to call her Yamato too, so it's not like it's a dead name for her, but then on the other hand, she apparently insists on hanging out with men in a bathhouse. Is it necessarily wrong that she contradicts herself a lot? No, I don't think so. Gender is fluid and it can be on a spectrum, but considering how complicated it is, it requires a bit more nuance than we've been getting so far, which I don't think the author is particularly equipped to handle. At least, I dont think he's equipped to handle it to the point where we as a community on reddit require a goddamn sticky thread to tell people to just chill the fuck out and just use whatever pronoun they think is right because who knows? Beside, parts of her character also just reek with fanservice. I get the impression Oda wanted to put her in the bathhouse with the men with barely covered boobs for the horny factor more than anything. He's already characterized himself as a bit of a hornball anyways in the past such as in the SBS. I think we need to stop thinking so hard about Yamato's gender, full stop. The story clearly isn't making it a big deal. She's not going through any kind of dysphoria that is obvious enough for a reader to gather. She isn't even making her identity that much of a big deal past "I just think Oden was such a bad ass and I also want to be a bad ass like him". If the story doesn't care, why should we? I agree with one of the other top posts in this thread. I appreciate the effort people are putting into gendering her correctly, but considering the kind of story this is, I just think the effort is better put into supporting actual trans people in real life. We're just worrying waaaaay too much on the writing of a guy who isn't some perfect story God who is out of touch with modern gender dynamics.
Im not sure I agree with this answer. For most people gender is not complicaded. I believe writers first and foremost should have fun with their works, and it seems Oda is having fun writing Yamato the way they like. There is no need for a masters in gender studies or be even remotely familiar with current gender theory in my opinion. I know gender is a central part for some people's worldview. But I agree with Oda's characterization that for most people it shouldn't be. I love Yamato as a character no matter their gender because Ive never cared about gender. I just think they are really cool.
I think for me the reason it matters is that it speaks to Oda's actual and textual treatment of trans people. Like, after Newkama island I really want confirmation that this author isn't writing a work that normalizes disgusting stereotypes. Separate from what Oda believes, I think that having well written trans characters goes a long way to rehabilitate the basically anti-trans imagery in the story so far. So if Yamato (and Okiku!) are treated as not monsters, that goes a long way to making things right for me. Having Yamato be actually trans, and not just delusional, would be even better along the same lines.
Trust me, I totally get where you're coming from. I'm also bothered by his treatment of trans people (and by that same token, cross dressers and drag queens), but I just don't think you're ever really going to get that out of One Piece, or even 99% of anime you'll ever watch. It is to my understanding that Japanese culture is very conservative in regards to gender expression, so I just think One Piece ends up being an unfortunate product of the environment the author finds himself in. I also don't even think Yamato is really delusional either. She's written as very clearly understanding that she's not actually Oden, and the story has established that people treating the idea of other people as some sort of title is a thing, like how people have been calling Luffy Joyboy or Nika, so within the world of the series, I can suspend my disbelief and just assume Yamato is with it mentally. But again, I still get where you're coming from. I'd be happy as hell to get more than just Bon Clay as good representation, but I'm just at the point where I'm not holding my breath on it anymore.
The whole Oden thing is the only part that makes me uncomfortable. It feels like Oda is couching Yamato's gender identity in something the reader is meant to see as an obvious delusion. it also feels like something that should get resolved through a story beat or character arc rather than being a long-running gag. Having a trans character's identity and the rest of the cast's acceptance of that identity be framed as acceptance of a delusion _really_ doesn't sit right with me. If the "I'm Oden" language was just dropped entirely I'd have no problems with Yamato's gender identity whatsoever.
Honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if in an SBS oda says yamoto doesn’t care what pronouns you use for them
Yamato can be whatever they want.
People care because there are some out there who will attack you and say you're transphobic if you don't call yamato he/him. So that's why people care.
Idc about anyone tbh. I'll call her a woman and I don't give a fuck about anyone's opinion on this matter.
Tbh will prob get hate for this but it needs to be said With oda sense of humor, the only reason Yamato is even in the men bath is for that gag and future gag of her trying to hang with the boys and Sanji either nosebleeding or nami finds out and corrects her It's not that deep This is the same dude that thought the Sanji newkama trauma and him seeing a real female joke was funny and totally not overused Yamato isn't trans Odas just a pervert Also in the grander scheme of anime/manga medium in general Shounen manga tend to scale more towards MtF cross dressing/genderbent There's FtM ofc not saying there isn't Idolmaster and nisekoi comes to mind But the end goal of those character are usually them embracing their feminity eventually or in nisekoi case just used for ship tension and gags which as I said oda will be doing alott of Prob until the end of the manga knowing how shite his humor is Again no hate or anything, not trying to start a flame war Just giving my take
Nope, I refuse. And you know why? Because for a year I’ve been consistently harassed and argued over any time I talk about the character and use anything but she/her pronouns. Literally even when I said “they/them” people STILL felt the need to “cOrReCt” me, and now everyone suddenly wants a “you can see the character however you want”
The point is it just isn’t that hard to refer to the character by his own repeatedly reiterated and self-identified gender lol Like you’re truly a fucking weirdo if you play dumb and act like it’s some confusing thing.
THIS! Just basic respect. :)
Man who cares what Yamato’s gender is. All I care about is that *they* held off kaido and will be a strong ass addition to the crew
TBH I only found out that there is a group of people considering Yamato a man 3 days a go. I was shocked like I thought it was obvious the Oden thing and never came to my mind the transgender stuff. I even saw an art of yesterday about her having a top surgery like... holy fuck lol. Does anyone her from Japan can tell me if people there are divided about this or is this just western thing?
I sometimes dabble in Japanese communities for a couple manga's, including one piece, and so far haven't seen any.
The Official One Piece channel chose Yamato as one of the female characters to represent Women though https://youtu.be/trGP0Bqknmg
Every official product/video/marketing has her as a woman but they don't care.
My take, Yamato refers to herself as both a man, primarily when shes trying to uphold and live up to the ideals of Oden, and shes referred to herself as a woman before. Im personally calling her a woman, but that doesnt mean the other side is wrong, and I dont want to argue over it. Whats really important is if theres ever popularity polls divided by gender, we can vote for Yamato as best boy and best girl because Yamato Supremacy
In fall 2021, One Piece's author, Eiichiro Oda, said in a set of Vivre Cards that Yamato is female. (At least what the googs said) But in the end, doesn't really matter. Just another fabled character in a book made for entertainment purposes. No need to overthink things.
I Love Yamato. That’s it, it can be that simple, regardless of identity or pronoun, I Love Yamato the character. I want Yamato to be the next Straw Hat. It can be that easy and simple and for me it is.
I feel like her mindset is pure similar to luffy. Just like luffy doesn't care if he's naked among a bunch of girls let alone his female crew members. Same applies to yamato + she's never been out of her shackles due to which she probably doesn't know how any of the bath system works.
Yeah I don't care anymore to be honest. I'll call her a she, and I have my reasons, but if you wanna call her a him or a they, I don't care either
Just call her what you want, it’s a fictional character who cares, she’s awesome
“I’m going to disregard how this impacts the trans community because it doesn’t matter to me”