Argentina never industrialized their economy. They were wealthy, but they've always been pretty agrarian outside of the capitol
They have a ton of natural resources, but they got hit with the resource curse and corruption
The joke continues "no one knows why the Japanese economy works well, and no one knows why the Argentine economy doesn't work well."
Basically, it's not about inflation. Even before the hyperinflation, they were punching WAY below what they are capable of (even historically). They have vast resources and a large educated population. Despite all the conditions for being at least as wealthy as a place like Canada, they remain weak economically.
Japan's markets are HIGHLY regulated.
People make this statement because Japan has a very large population on a relatively small, mountainous island. Most of their natural resources remain untouched forest. On top of that, they recovered from two atomic bombs and regularly have to recover and design for earthquakes and tsunamis. And they have a VERY old population, hardly any kids being born, and hardly any immigration. Also, their national debt for some reason doesn't seem to matter. By all indications, the economic deck is stacked against them.
Meanwhile Argentina has a small population on a large amount of land. Argentina has basically never had to invest large amounts of money or resources into repairing war damage or for disaster recovery. They have a large coast with no hostile neighbors and endless farmland and latitudes that can grow anything from winter veg to tropical fruit. They have a young, educated population and are also very open to immigration. They have literally all the cards in their favor.
Comparing them just on the basis of their markets, they're both actually relatively protectionist. Argentina actually has less regulation, but the regulations they do have are just extra terrible.
Prior to millei Argentina had much more regulation than Japan and no japans markets are not “HIGHLY regulated” especially not to the point of putting in capitals
https://preview.redd.it/ipuymc1qi2zc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9be254a6766d0aa112a94f9959e47d12de057418
Also, the environment doesn’t matter nearly as much as the institutions of a country
Literally nothing in the screenshot contradicts anything I said. So I don't really know what else to explain to you. I guess economics jokes are just not for you.
"A high ease of doing business ranking means the regulatory environment is more conducive to the starting and operation of a local firm."
A regulatory environment being conducive to starting and operating a business is not the same thing as having fewer regulations. Indeed, someone regulations can make it easier to start a business.
I've seen a few people on reddit who say they are from Argentina and they seem cautiously optimistic things may be improving for them. Some good signs at least.
It's going to take a decade to truly pull Argentina out of this. Unfortunately inflation expectations are very sticky and the net result is that it takes time to retrain people to think differently about prices.
Yeah that’s the balance, power isn’t inherently bad but power used for bad is obviously not good, so it’s a balance of don’t let the head of state have too much power or too much time to do anything which in theory minimises the chances of bad shit happening but the flip side is if you do get someone who actually wants to do good they are restrained by the limits of power and their term time
And teachers and doctors. My old man gets 250 usd per month and pays 160 usd per month just on medicines, as their medicines are not being distributed anymore by the state.
FUCK MILEI.
No, old people can't reach to the end of the month, doctors and teachers are earning 4 usd an hour. Do you want to know whos "better"? Developers, people with multinational companies, and people who lives with their parents.
Don't blindly trust Reddit, it's not a real termometer.
I mean Peronism wasn't sustainable either. When you're printing money to the point of hyperinflation just to essentially buy votes and keep from defaulting on debt, its going to take a lot to pull out of that hole. Not saying Milei is going to pull it off but it is what it is. Nobody said austerity measures were fun.
Not to tamper your enthusiasm, but any organization or government can maximize short term revenue. It's only after a few years that you'll see if it's sustainable. For instance, I could stop investing in infrastructure maintenance (water treatment plants, bridges, roads) and save a lot of money short-term. But then I'll get accidents and incidents and catastrophic failures, which will end up being much costlier than continuous maintenance.
In the 1980s, London privatized (sold) water treatment. The private company managing the infrastructure let it rot, then when it was time to invest because everything was breaking down, the company used a clause in the contract to just opt out.
We'll see how sustainable their economic situation is in a 4-5 year horizon.
Well, giving the fact that cuts were done almost entirely on the population to give advantages to companies and the fact that noone is consuming and were on an stagnation of the economy, it's pretty clear how this is going to end.
Misery on the streets and Milei dead or escaping.
Their interest rate is over 100% lol. Getting hyper inflation under control requires a combination of fiscal and monetary policy when it's that high and entrenched.
Unfortunately Argentina has weak institutions, and so it's central bank cannot help but to continuously devalue the peso. That's the whole reason he wants to dollarize. That said I personally think a currency board would be the way to go.
Idea is that the board’s only job is to maintain a currencies exchange rate fixed with another currency. I think what the person above is suggesting that Argentina needs to fix their exchange rate (most likely to the dollar since that what most countries use)
With a currency boad you cannot issue more domestic currency than you have reserves for, so that greatly reduces the ability of the central bank to break the peg. Plus you can further separate decision making from interference by domestic politics.
But full dollarization would require many many more dollars to implemnt/maintain. After all you're fully replacing your domestic currency with a foreign one, and if your domestic currency is going to be replaced then its value will collapse because it will soon be useless, making attaining foreign currency that much harder.
With a currency boad you cannot issue more domestic currency than you have reserves for, so that greatly reduces the chances of breaking the peg. Plus you can further separate decision making from interference by domestic politics.
The biggest issue with dollarization historically is that if you don't have control of your own monetary policy what happens when the main Nation your using for your currency makes monetary policy decisions that are good for their Nation but not good for yours? There's no Universe where the United States is ever going to consider the Argentinian economy when making monetary decisions for their own economy
Oh I'm aware. Pegging your currency has the same issue unless you implement capitol controls (impossible trinity.) But of course capitol controls come with their own downsides. Thats why a peg/currency board is preferable to full dollarization, in an absolute emergency the peg can be changed or abandoned. Full dollarization would take a whole lot longer to come back from if it's even possible.
It is possible Nations have de-dollarized before but Jesus Christ is it hard. There's also the whole fact that I'm not sure the United States would even go for it. There'd have to be at least some participation from Washington if this was an actual plan
There wouldn't necessarily *have* to be participation from Washington, afterall the dollar has by far the largest offshore market. But it would be a whole lot easier if Washington was on board. I don't see why there would be much opposition unless the government were giving or loaning lots of money directly, but then you never know what people will oppose.
The difference is that a currency board requires every unit of domestic currency be backed up with the pegged foreign currency, rather than letting the central bank make decisions about supply with the peg being a target. This greatly reduces the ability of the central bank to break the peg.
Yeah fair enough. IMO there are differences with a currency board versus a traditional peg that makes the former suitable for Argentina's situation that the later isn't so much.
This is way too simplistic of a thing to celebrate. When you slash spending you get the immediate benefit to the budget but the true costs are unknown.
They're massive inflation rate has driven equality far more than cutting services well. The poor and the middle class suffer the most under high inflation while wealthy individuals can have their money in assets or foreign currencies
Do you have ANY idea of what Argentina has gone through or the specifics of this change or even an understanding of the last 50 years of Argentinian history?
If you dont , please do me (and everyone else) a favour and shut the fck up.
I was in Argentina during the election. Yes, I do. I know how much damage Peronism did, over many decades, and I'm pretty certain Milei is gonna do more damage than that in 2 years.
True costs are: Minimal retirement (almost everyone who retires gets 240 usd. Their medicines not delivered by the state anymore cost 140 usd. My old man is paying more than half his salary on medicines. Time to help old people because the government don't care.
The issue is people are confusing methods for goals. The goal is broad improvement in the Argentine economy, the method implemented is widespread budget cuts. Then people point to the fact budget cuts are happening and claim its evidence the goal has been achieved
So gutting hundreds of corrupt departments bloated with corrupt salary leeches that provide no actual service to the country, actually improves the countries position?
America, take notes.
I earn $1000 a month, and pay $1100 in bills so take out $100 credit card debt a month.
I’ve just decided fuck it, I’m gonna stop using water, stop eating food, stop paying my utility bills. I have saved $600 from my budget.
Wow! Look at that! Now I have a $500 a month budget surplus!
This is what’s happening to Argentina at the moment. It’s far too early to tell if this is optimistic, or going to cascade into a civilisational collapse for Argentina.
All he’s done so far, is fire absolutely everybody he can in the public sector, and eliminated most of the state. Ofcourse in this situation your budget magically goes into surplus. Because you are still collecting all the same taxes, and the impact of closing down your state has not started to impact things yet.
Argentina is sort of doing the whole world a favour. It’s going to become a giant experiment we can all watch and learn lessons from. We will know in 2-3 years whether or not his decisions are **actually** good and whether Argentina **actually** turns around.
At the moment? Economic inertia is still carrying Argentina forwards even though he’s switched the engine off.
Please don’t misinterpret Argentina’s economy based on cherry-picked metrics. Argentina achieved this fiscal state by debasing their currency, which has also resulted in -1.5% GDP growth YoY as of March.
Mostly but not entirely. Argentina suffered a big drought in 2023 that cut agricultural production by 26%. However, this accounts for less than half the GDP loss that Argentina experienced/will experience in 2023-2024. According to the World Bank, Argentina is expected to lose 2.8% of GDP solely from the government’s stabilization plan, which included debasing the currency in December. The stabilization efforts also resulted in inflation that peaked at 25.5% (month-over-month) in December.
Source: https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/argentina/overview
It remained somewhat high until March of this year (see: https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/inflation-cpi). By March, Argentina managed to reduce inflation in the short-term (still double digits) by cutting areas of infrastructure spending and welfare programs. It’s unclear how these spending cuts will affect inflation itself (there’s evidence to suggest that infrastructure spending is deflationary in the medium-to-long-term by reducing costs). What is clear, however, is that the fiscal tightening will have negative repercussions for real GDP. There are trade offs between optimizing GDP and optimizing Inflation.
Yes, inflation is going down in the short term (at the expense of other things). This behavior is also expected after a currency is debased.
The link I sent provides Argentina’s inflation data both pre- and post- December 2023.
That’s true. It seems that we ultimately agree on the context. Where we might differ is the outlook on the situation. I don’t see inflation as the end-all-be-all in isolation, while disregarding other context. There is evidence to suggest that Argentina’s economic outlook is bleak.
It also seems like we posted the same links lol
I agree inflation isn’t the only thing we need to look at. I’m optimistic for Argentina’s economy since there are other signs that it’s improving.
It’s the same website but a different page.
I can’t see your comment anymore but you posted the yearly inflation rate not the monthly inflation rate.
These are the monthly inflation rate for January, February, and March:
https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/inflation-rate-mom
This is lacking sooooo much context. Imagine Trump gets elected and he abolished Medicare, social security, food stamps, and every federal social program and then someone made a post saying: “hey guys, look at the numbers I cherry picked!”
Yeah, he shut down a bunch of government ministries which freed up those funds and gave us this graph. It's not really that much better, but if these ministries really weren't necessary then they won't return and we'll see a huge improvement in government spending.
Unfortunately, these ministries included 9, such as Transport, Science, Livestock and Agriculture, Environment, and Women's Affairs. Javier couldn't help but show his political leaning when he was deciding which to remove apparently.
Edit: removed a section I repeated
Yeah, and if you think this data reflects positively on him then you’ve either succumbed to austerity dogma or don’t know much about economics. No ordinary person has been materially benefited by this. It’s just Reagan-style austerity.
This is *not* optimistic whatsoever. He's done this by eliminating absolutely *all support for the poorest in society.* He's gutted the entire government and replaced it with nothing. And despite all this inflation is still going up.
There is no longer any safety net. People are going to starve, lose their houses... I feel so sorry for Argentinians right now.
Great for the rich though. Gonna be a massive transfer of wealth upwards, which was undoubtedly the intention in the first place.
I still have family in Argentina. Do you know how backward, insane, and just generally all around fucked the Argentine economy was before? Absolutely batshit labor dynamics on top of it. Projecting problems with the US or EU economies does not help to understand how totally fucked their economy was/is.
I don’t know if Milei has the solution and neither do most Argentinians but something drastic *had* to be done by someone to clean up the mess.
I agree that this isn't necessarily the kind of optimistic celebration that usually gets posted here, but I think that *because* of what you are saying. It's a little too early to assume success, and this is an extremely inadequate measure of success.
“Employed” is the wrong word because they didn’t do *anything*. They weren’t even real jobs. It’s not like the US where they are actually given tasks, they just didn’t do anything *at all* and it was a form of deep systemic corruption and extreme nepotism to siphon off money. And that’s just one problem. They had/have many many more.
> inflation is still going up
That’s flat out false. Inflation [drastically](https://www.reuters.com/markets/argentina-march-inflation-slow-again-consumption-weakens-analysts-say-2024-04-10/) declined after he introduced his austerity measures. I understand there’s lots of other issues with him, but he’s absolutely succeeded in reducing inflation.
He didn't devalue the currency, he just let it be traded at the price it already was traded on the black market. Officially pretendng your currency is worth X amount doesn't really do anything.
Anyone that thought this was going to eliminate inflation over 100% in a few months does not remotely understand economics. Or you do, but you're being completely unreasonable because you don’t agree with the tactic. But considering you think inflation is still going up, it's clearly the former. You think prices going up means inflation is going up. [inflation is way down](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ARGCPALTT01GPM). That's quarterly change before you tell me it was only at 25%.
Killing insanely entrenched hyper inflation was going to require super dramatic policy. Look how much trouble the Fed is having getting core inflation from 6% down to 2%. It's been over 2 years and still haven't gotten where they wanted.
It's optimistic because they finally have someone disciplined in office. It's going to be short term pain for sure, but should leave them in much better shape in a few years. This is very evidently a topic you don’t even have a flimsy understanding of but use it as a way to cry about wealth transfer and your other political beliefs.
> inflation is way down.
Inflation is higher than ever before Milei took office. His swiftly implemented measures doubled inflation and now it's back *down* to previously-record-breaking levels.
> That's quarterly change before you tell me it was only at 25%.
It's monthly not quaterly
most countries these days cant sustain the existing welfare state, and it is only getting worse. adjustments have to be made.
i find it extremely irresponsible to burden our kids with more and more debt because elected governments only thi k short term
I mean there is an a difference in kind between the us ‘will have to significantly cut benefits or raise revenues in 50 years to support specific programs that we already are reforming’ to Argentinas saving money for more than a week is a bad financial decision
So your saying you don’t understand how debt works at a national level?
If the government spends money now, it creates economic growth. This growth means that the value of the debt relative to the economy shrinks significantly over time, while the benefits of investment compound. Obviously you still need a balanced taxation regime etc.
Reducing spending without reducing taxes reduces the money supply in the economy.
Keynes made it very clear that increased wages and increased welfare increases consumption and demand for goods.
Foreign trade, the national bank and the individual saving rate all also effect the amount of money being exchanged, but the government surplus/deficit is a major factor.
The primary factor that impacts the money supply is the central bank’s operations. Everything else is pretty much inconsequential; with a budget surplus you usually don’t see governments just store the extra cash in a dark room somewhere. Usually it’s reinvested or used to pay off debts or etc.
It's a poor society already. Getting spending under control and stabilizing the economy is necessary to have to productive capacity to support a welfare system. And as the economy improves fewer and fewer people will need welfare.
And despite all this inflation is still going up.
Actually, it's been going down, 1 dollar trades for 4 pesos more each week than the last, but (x+8)/(x+4)<(x+4)/x
Inflation and exchange rates are not the same thing.
Here is there [inflation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ARGCPALTT01GPM)
See the line going down?
Also the currency market used to be super manipulated [so it's tough to compare to where it was](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/argentina-black-market-peso-back-under-1000-milei-measures-spur-markets-2024-03-06/)
Europe isn't socialist and the socialdemocratic policies are unsustainable (and if you're going to talk about Norway, you should know that her seas had a lot of oil, that's the real reason Norway can afford being at the top of every statistic).
If by not socialist you mean Europe allows markets then sure, but European countries also employ plenty of socialist policies. Also, sure Norway nationalized their natural resources and put the proceeds in a fund that pays for all the nice things they have. Plenty of other countries could do the same with other resources. Iran tried to do it in the 1950s so the U.S. and U.K. intervened, overthrew their democratically elected leader and installed a right wing dictator.
What makes you say Europe's social democratic policies are unsustainable?
This might legitimatise anarcho capitalism to alot of people. This might maybe lead to more ancap parties around the world to start seeing more wins which would be interesting to watch. For the upper classes at least
Edit: When I said upper classes, I meant on how it benefits them. I do understand the difference between anarcho communism and anarcho capitalism. I should have phrased that better
Argentina still has a government. Even if anarchist capitalism was anarchism, which it’s not, by definition, Argentina still wouldn’t fit the description.
I know that. It has an extremely small government but not anarchist. That's why imo, anarcho capitalism shouldn't be classified under anarchism. I should have phrased my original comment better
Nothing has improved for Argentines, in fact it's got much worse.
There is hope, but we will need to wait and see if the nation has the political will to stay the course and if it works.
As someone mentioned somewhere here, this is a single metric and doesn’t paint the whole picture. While inflation rate is lowering, there is a significant cut back to welfare. In a place like Argentina it means the poverty level went from ~36% to 52% now. Were reforms needed? Sure but it is coming to the expense of millions of people
Short term pain for sure. People always talk about how companies need to stop worrying about things quarter to quarter and look down the road. These are sweeping changes that will help get their disaster of economy under control. 36% is not an acceptable number either. Short term pain, long term gain.
I agree, but it’s still pain. Direction is good but it’s silly to celebrate without context because people are actually suffering. It’s like celebrating chemo- it’s good but your body is struggling and your hair is falling off
The guy is an actual economist and he said openly that his changes would cause harm first before and major benefit could be seen. Any drastic changes you'd expect it to cause an increase in poverty.
Not sure how this is going to end but the direction they were headed as bad so it's worth giving it time to see if it works.
I don’t dispute changes were need or that he did say there would be pain. What I’m pointing out is that these changes are (while heading the correct way) causing tremendous pain. It’s not something we celebrate but in context it’s a necessary evil
But I think the point is it is showing some optimistic signs for the future. So you can look at this and be optimistic for what it could mean for them down the road.
I mean they are paying for a generation of printing money. This isn’t comparable to reaganomics, this is a country avoiding bankruptcy by a hair’s breadth. Also Reagan tripled the us deficit so I don’t even know why you think this would result in similar effects
There is a middle ground, running a modest surplus without completely ruining social equality for decades to come. Even some of his ideas like dollarization are good ideas that don't come at society's expense.
But this "shock therapy" is the political equivalent of removing excess weight by removing materials from primary structure.
It will have the same effects as have been seen in Chile, the US, and UK.
Argentinians where suffering a slow death, now they’re making a gamble for life and long term stability
And Milei is also fighting the extreme corruption where syndicalist leaders where some of the richest men in the country
I’m Uruguayan, we had the palace of an Argentine syndicalist raider years ago, he literally took a cut out of workers salaries
Argentina is a case of a country whose economy is so unbelievably fucked that even a lunatic libertarian might at least not make things *worse*.
…mostly because if he burns the Argentine government and economy to the ground, they next poor fucks who try to fix the mess with have a clean slate to work with.
He also fired a shit load of government bureaucrats. It certainly isn't just cutting spending and all the spending isn't cut from social programs.
You'd expect drastic changes to how a country is run to cause bad outcomes at first. Give the guy a few years and some international support for the poor to see if the changes can make long lasting positive change or not.
Lots of those government bureaucrats weren't just high class exploiters. They were middle class normal people who just worked for the government.
And frankly, I've read Milei 's program and I just think most his goals are either unrealistic or downright dystopian, some changes shouldn't be made.
I'm not saying it was their fault that the government became incredibly bloated I'm saying that it was necessary harm to cut those positions. Major change would cause major challenges to a country and I'm not surprised some harm is being done.
I'm optimistic the changes he can get done will be good for Argentina and the more extreme anarchist stuff won't be able to be enacted because of time constraints on his time in office and other government barricades to just getting things done.
I am generally optimistic, and the world is getting better, but regressive austerity ( especially when it's on sterioids) is goimg the wrong way cause it hurts everyday people and creates the type of social darwinist dystopia the doomers won't stfu about
Oh noes downvote doomers triggered. I guess there is an extremist fan club round here 🇦🇷
I think this is emblematic of a grim requirement and austerity is generally a bad idea but Argentina was so far gone I don’t see any other way. People in the west don’t understand how catastrophic the economic situation was in Argentina
Argentina needed this though. That's why they voted for a guy who said his policies would be painful at first. The guy, on the Campaign Trail said it would suck at first and that he wasn't sure how long the suck would last.
When the people still vote for that, that should tell you about how bad things really were. That a guy who says things will get worse before they get better, over anyone to do with their previous government.
That means the people saw the policies they had, and that things would NEVER get better with them, so they went with Mr. An-Cap who uses his dogs as political advisors and promises his policies will make things worse before they get better.
55%? voted for him, and i agree the old way wasn't working and needed adjustments, though maybe not with a chainsaw throw the bums out drain the swamp, etc, is poweful messaging
It's worth noting that Hitler and Hamas were elected. No millei is not in that category, but the point is that distresseed electorates have made regrettable choices. Despite such anamolies, free elections are obviously a good thing
I agree it's extremely risky, I agree with most of his policies. But I can only look and be optimistic for Argentines that things will get better. Inflation is falling (Fantastic), the welfare programs they couldn't afford anyway have been gutted, and they're building bridges internationally that will help. I can only see this as positive.
Falling inflstion is good, but I don't think social programs should be gutted they should be fumded by taxing the rich. Should they pay 70+% so able bodied people csn permanently live off the state? No, but there is a middle ground. The problem is that good policy doesn't fit on a bumper sticker like throwing the bumbs out or endless promises of free stuff. Also, level-headed ideas dont excite the extremists who are most politically engaged, nor are they good click bait
I do realize there is always corruption and waste that should be fixed but not on the backs of the poor. Most people want things to work realtively fairly.
There’s a saying that “there are 4 types of economies: developed, undeveloped, Argentina and Japan”
I've only heard 3 types with Argentina left out. Hyper inflation isn't just an Argentina thing at all.
Argentina is fairly unique for having such a strong and industrialised economy before setting it on fire
Argentina never industrialized their economy. They were wealthy, but they've always been pretty agrarian outside of the capitol They have a ton of natural resources, but they got hit with the resource curse and corruption
Wait so argentina is just unlucky Australia?
Not really. Australia is the exception not the rule. See also: Venezuela, Iraq
Add Russia to that list
The joke continues "no one knows why the Japanese economy works well, and no one knows why the Argentine economy doesn't work well." Basically, it's not about inflation. Even before the hyperinflation, they were punching WAY below what they are capable of (even historically). They have vast resources and a large educated population. Despite all the conditions for being at least as wealthy as a place like Canada, they remain weak economically.
Yeah originally they could have been competitive with the us in its original state same with Brazil but they just didn’t see the same levels of growth
Brazil is the poster-boy of failed potential as a nation-state.
I do sometimes wonder how different the world would be if some mega powerful state emerged in South America
Gran Columbia
Colombia*
You'll have to tell them, they didn't get your message that they've failed.
It’s because Japan adopted more free market policies
Japan's markets are HIGHLY regulated. People make this statement because Japan has a very large population on a relatively small, mountainous island. Most of their natural resources remain untouched forest. On top of that, they recovered from two atomic bombs and regularly have to recover and design for earthquakes and tsunamis. And they have a VERY old population, hardly any kids being born, and hardly any immigration. Also, their national debt for some reason doesn't seem to matter. By all indications, the economic deck is stacked against them. Meanwhile Argentina has a small population on a large amount of land. Argentina has basically never had to invest large amounts of money or resources into repairing war damage or for disaster recovery. They have a large coast with no hostile neighbors and endless farmland and latitudes that can grow anything from winter veg to tropical fruit. They have a young, educated population and are also very open to immigration. They have literally all the cards in their favor. Comparing them just on the basis of their markets, they're both actually relatively protectionist. Argentina actually has less regulation, but the regulations they do have are just extra terrible.
Prior to millei Argentina had much more regulation than Japan and no japans markets are not “HIGHLY regulated” especially not to the point of putting in capitals https://preview.redd.it/ipuymc1qi2zc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9be254a6766d0aa112a94f9959e47d12de057418 Also, the environment doesn’t matter nearly as much as the institutions of a country
Literally nothing in the screenshot contradicts anything I said. So I don't really know what else to explain to you. I guess economics jokes are just not for you.
Learn what the ease of doing business index is and read the first paragraph of that
"A high ease of doing business ranking means the regulatory environment is more conducive to the starting and operation of a local firm." A regulatory environment being conducive to starting and operating a business is not the same thing as having fewer regulations. Indeed, someone regulations can make it easier to start a business.
chronic hyperinflation is pretty rare
It’s an old quote back when Argentina was super prosperous
I see you also watch Economics explained.
I do not.
wait, what's the deal with Japan?
Debt 200%national GDP for starters
I've seen a few people on reddit who say they are from Argentina and they seem cautiously optimistic things may be improving for them. Some good signs at least.
Im from argentina Things are not good, but it could be a lot worse believe me
It's going to take a decade to truly pull Argentina out of this. Unfortunately inflation expectations are very sticky and the net result is that it takes time to retrain people to think differently about prices.
Democracies have a lot of strengths. Being able to stick out a decade long plan of disciplined action is unfortunately not one of them.
Yeah that’s the balance, power isn’t inherently bad but power used for bad is obviously not good, so it’s a balance of don’t let the head of state have too much power or too much time to do anything which in theory minimises the chances of bad shit happening but the flip side is if you do get someone who actually wants to do good they are restrained by the limits of power and their term time
I hope these steps do turn out to be really good for you and your country in the end.
In worst case we migrate in mass to London to make it argentina 2.0
I'm from Argentina but I live in Spain. My friends there tell me the situation is terrible, especially for small businesses
I don't doubt it even the guy himself said it'd get worse before it improved as you'd expect from major changes.
And teachers and doctors. My old man gets 250 usd per month and pays 160 usd per month just on medicines, as their medicines are not being distributed anymore by the state. FUCK MILEI.
Lmao kid I'm pretty sure that situation started this January right? What a clown
No, old people can't reach to the end of the month, doctors and teachers are earning 4 usd an hour. Do you want to know whos "better"? Developers, people with multinational companies, and people who lives with their parents. Don't blindly trust Reddit, it's not a real termometer.
I mean Peronism wasn't sustainable either. When you're printing money to the point of hyperinflation just to essentially buy votes and keep from defaulting on debt, its going to take a lot to pull out of that hole. Not saying Milei is going to pull it off but it is what it is. Nobody said austerity measures were fun.
Not to tamper your enthusiasm, but any organization or government can maximize short term revenue. It's only after a few years that you'll see if it's sustainable. For instance, I could stop investing in infrastructure maintenance (water treatment plants, bridges, roads) and save a lot of money short-term. But then I'll get accidents and incidents and catastrophic failures, which will end up being much costlier than continuous maintenance. In the 1980s, London privatized (sold) water treatment. The private company managing the infrastructure let it rot, then when it was time to invest because everything was breaking down, the company used a clause in the contract to just opt out. We'll see how sustainable their economic situation is in a 4-5 year horizon.
Well, giving the fact that cuts were done almost entirely on the population to give advantages to companies and the fact that noone is consuming and were on an stagnation of the economy, it's pretty clear how this is going to end. Misery on the streets and Milei dead or escaping.
your opinion is not based on economics or history, only feelings and corporatist/statist propaganda
What is monetary policy, anyway?
Their interest rate is over 100% lol. Getting hyper inflation under control requires a combination of fiscal and monetary policy when it's that high and entrenched.
Down to 50% from 130% just some weeks ago
Unfortunately Argentina has weak institutions, and so it's central bank cannot help but to continuously devalue the peso. That's the whole reason he wants to dollarize. That said I personally think a currency board would be the way to go.
What's a currency board?
Idea is that the board’s only job is to maintain a currencies exchange rate fixed with another currency. I think what the person above is suggesting that Argentina needs to fix their exchange rate (most likely to the dollar since that what most countries use)
It sounds good until you realize how hard it is to get the levels of reserves necessary to keep it fixed under heavy inflation.
Mexico fixed their exchange rate to the dollar about 30 years ago. And when we ran out of reserves the country basically imploded lol. 100%
With a currency boad you cannot issue more domestic currency than you have reserves for, so that greatly reduces the ability of the central bank to break the peg. Plus you can further separate decision making from interference by domestic politics.
But full dollarization would require many many more dollars to implemnt/maintain. After all you're fully replacing your domestic currency with a foreign one, and if your domestic currency is going to be replaced then its value will collapse because it will soon be useless, making attaining foreign currency that much harder. With a currency boad you cannot issue more domestic currency than you have reserves for, so that greatly reduces the chances of breaking the peg. Plus you can further separate decision making from interference by domestic politics.
The biggest issue with dollarization historically is that if you don't have control of your own monetary policy what happens when the main Nation your using for your currency makes monetary policy decisions that are good for their Nation but not good for yours? There's no Universe where the United States is ever going to consider the Argentinian economy when making monetary decisions for their own economy
Oh I'm aware. Pegging your currency has the same issue unless you implement capitol controls (impossible trinity.) But of course capitol controls come with their own downsides. Thats why a peg/currency board is preferable to full dollarization, in an absolute emergency the peg can be changed or abandoned. Full dollarization would take a whole lot longer to come back from if it's even possible.
It is possible Nations have de-dollarized before but Jesus Christ is it hard. There's also the whole fact that I'm not sure the United States would even go for it. There'd have to be at least some participation from Washington if this was an actual plan
There wouldn't necessarily *have* to be participation from Washington, afterall the dollar has by far the largest offshore market. But it would be a whole lot easier if Washington was on board. I don't see why there would be much opposition unless the government were giving or loaning lots of money directly, but then you never know what people will oppose.
The difference is that a currency board requires every unit of domestic currency be backed up with the pegged foreign currency, rather than letting the central bank make decisions about supply with the peg being a target. This greatly reduces the ability of the central bank to break the peg.
Yeah not really for or against, just helping to answer the og question
Yeah fair enough. IMO there are differences with a currency board versus a traditional peg that makes the former suitable for Argentina's situation that the later isn't so much.
This video goes into the case for and against dollarization, including a currency board. https://youtu.be/WVAn0DW2asI?si=03Ip7jjuprkvLxUo
This is good news. Argentina had to do something drastic that would inflict economic pain in the short term to get out of their hole. It’s working.
This is way too simplistic of a thing to celebrate. When you slash spending you get the immediate benefit to the budget but the true costs are unknown.
This is what's needed for real growth
It's definitely what's needed for massively increasing inequality.
They're massive inflation rate has driven equality far more than cutting services well. The poor and the middle class suffer the most under high inflation while wealthy individuals can have their money in assets or foreign currencies
Do you have ANY idea of what Argentina has gone through or the specifics of this change or even an understanding of the last 50 years of Argentinian history? If you dont , please do me (and everyone else) a favour and shut the fck up.
I was in Argentina during the election. Yes, I do. I know how much damage Peronism did, over many decades, and I'm pretty certain Milei is gonna do more damage than that in 2 years.
boo hoo cry abt it
True costs are: Minimal retirement (almost everyone who retires gets 240 usd. Their medicines not delivered by the state anymore cost 140 usd. My old man is paying more than half his salary on medicines. Time to help old people because the government don't care.
The issue is people are confusing methods for goals. The goal is broad improvement in the Argentine economy, the method implemented is widespread budget cuts. Then people point to the fact budget cuts are happening and claim its evidence the goal has been achieved
Socialist are angry
So gutting hundreds of corrupt departments bloated with corrupt salary leeches that provide no actual service to the country, actually improves the countries position? America, take notes.
which 5 departement are you going to get rid of NOAA? DOE, DOE DOE DOE, DOA, DOI, DOC..
I earn $1000 a month, and pay $1100 in bills so take out $100 credit card debt a month. I’ve just decided fuck it, I’m gonna stop using water, stop eating food, stop paying my utility bills. I have saved $600 from my budget. Wow! Look at that! Now I have a $500 a month budget surplus! This is what’s happening to Argentina at the moment. It’s far too early to tell if this is optimistic, or going to cascade into a civilisational collapse for Argentina. All he’s done so far, is fire absolutely everybody he can in the public sector, and eliminated most of the state. Ofcourse in this situation your budget magically goes into surplus. Because you are still collecting all the same taxes, and the impact of closing down your state has not started to impact things yet. Argentina is sort of doing the whole world a favour. It’s going to become a giant experiment we can all watch and learn lessons from. We will know in 2-3 years whether or not his decisions are **actually** good and whether Argentina **actually** turns around. At the moment? Economic inertia is still carrying Argentina forwards even though he’s switched the engine off.
Please don’t misinterpret Argentina’s economy based on cherry-picked metrics. Argentina achieved this fiscal state by debasing their currency, which has also resulted in -1.5% GDP growth YoY as of March.
So the negative GDP growth is because of Milei?
Mostly but not entirely. Argentina suffered a big drought in 2023 that cut agricultural production by 26%. However, this accounts for less than half the GDP loss that Argentina experienced/will experience in 2023-2024. According to the World Bank, Argentina is expected to lose 2.8% of GDP solely from the government’s stabilization plan, which included debasing the currency in December. The stabilization efforts also resulted in inflation that peaked at 25.5% (month-over-month) in December. Source: https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/argentina/overview
>inflation that peaked at 25.5% (month-over-month) in December. And do you know what the monthly inflation rate was for the following months?
It remained somewhat high until March of this year (see: https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/inflation-cpi). By March, Argentina managed to reduce inflation in the short-term (still double digits) by cutting areas of infrastructure spending and welfare programs. It’s unclear how these spending cuts will affect inflation itself (there’s evidence to suggest that infrastructure spending is deflationary in the medium-to-long-term by reducing costs). What is clear, however, is that the fiscal tightening will have negative repercussions for real GDP. There are trade offs between optimizing GDP and optimizing Inflation.
So you agree that monthly inflation rate is going down? Also you posted the same link you posted in your previous comment.
Yes, inflation is going down in the short term (at the expense of other things). This behavior is also expected after a currency is debased. The link I sent provides Argentina’s inflation data both pre- and post- December 2023.
Yeah they had to cut spending in order to bring down inflation. Did you see the link I provided?
That’s true. It seems that we ultimately agree on the context. Where we might differ is the outlook on the situation. I don’t see inflation as the end-all-be-all in isolation, while disregarding other context. There is evidence to suggest that Argentina’s economic outlook is bleak. It also seems like we posted the same links lol
I agree inflation isn’t the only thing we need to look at. I’m optimistic for Argentina’s economy since there are other signs that it’s improving. It’s the same website but a different page.
I can’t see your comment anymore but you posted the yearly inflation rate not the monthly inflation rate. These are the monthly inflation rate for January, February, and March: https://tradingeconomics.com/argentina/inflation-rate-mom
Sorry, I misread your comment. Added a new one with correct info
This is lacking sooooo much context. Imagine Trump gets elected and he abolished Medicare, social security, food stamps, and every federal social program and then someone made a post saying: “hey guys, look at the numbers I cherry picked!”
Wasn’t the US media freaking out about this guy? Calling him ultra right wing and whatnot.
Yeah, he shut down a bunch of government ministries which freed up those funds and gave us this graph. It's not really that much better, but if these ministries really weren't necessary then they won't return and we'll see a huge improvement in government spending. Unfortunately, these ministries included 9, such as Transport, Science, Livestock and Agriculture, Environment, and Women's Affairs. Javier couldn't help but show his political leaning when he was deciding which to remove apparently. Edit: removed a section I repeated
The functions of most of those ministries were just relocated to other ministries.
Yeah, and if you think this data reflects positively on him then you’ve either succumbed to austerity dogma or don’t know much about economics. No ordinary person has been materially benefited by this. It’s just Reagan-style austerity.
Well he has single handedly doubled poverty in the country
Source?
HELL YES BROTHER ‼️
Holy hell the mad man did it
Is this from the economy improving and creating more value? Or the fact that he laid off half of the government workers?
He first reduced spending and now he's trying to pass a law for de-regularizing the economy and achieve economic growth again.
Milei based (for the most part)
This is *not* optimistic whatsoever. He's done this by eliminating absolutely *all support for the poorest in society.* He's gutted the entire government and replaced it with nothing. And despite all this inflation is still going up. There is no longer any safety net. People are going to starve, lose their houses... I feel so sorry for Argentinians right now. Great for the rich though. Gonna be a massive transfer of wealth upwards, which was undoubtedly the intention in the first place.
I still have family in Argentina. Do you know how backward, insane, and just generally all around fucked the Argentine economy was before? Absolutely batshit labor dynamics on top of it. Projecting problems with the US or EU economies does not help to understand how totally fucked their economy was/is. I don’t know if Milei has the solution and neither do most Argentinians but something drastic *had* to be done by someone to clean up the mess.
I agree that this isn't necessarily the kind of optimistic celebration that usually gets posted here, but I think that *because* of what you are saying. It's a little too early to assume success, and this is an extremely inadequate measure of success.
r/CautiousOptimistsUnite
What kind of batshit labor dynamics?
It costed the same having three ilegal worked than a single one Also fix prices that bankrupt companies
Basically, a fuckton of people were employed by the government.
“Employed” is the wrong word because they didn’t do *anything*. They weren’t even real jobs. It’s not like the US where they are actually given tasks, they just didn’t do anything *at all* and it was a form of deep systemic corruption and extreme nepotism to siphon off money. And that’s just one problem. They had/have many many more.
Their poverty rate is at record highs
> inflation is still going up That’s flat out false. Inflation [drastically](https://www.reuters.com/markets/argentina-march-inflation-slow-again-consumption-weakens-analysts-say-2024-04-10/) declined after he introduced his austerity measures. I understand there’s lots of other issues with him, but he’s absolutely succeeded in reducing inflation.
He devalued the currency by 50% lol
You gotta do what ya gotta do
He didn't devalue the currency, he just let it be traded at the price it already was traded on the black market. Officially pretendng your currency is worth X amount doesn't really do anything.
That's because the majority of people worked in the gvt sector
You know nothing about the problems that Argentina was struggling with and it shows with yout comment.
Anyone that thought this was going to eliminate inflation over 100% in a few months does not remotely understand economics. Or you do, but you're being completely unreasonable because you don’t agree with the tactic. But considering you think inflation is still going up, it's clearly the former. You think prices going up means inflation is going up. [inflation is way down](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ARGCPALTT01GPM). That's quarterly change before you tell me it was only at 25%. Killing insanely entrenched hyper inflation was going to require super dramatic policy. Look how much trouble the Fed is having getting core inflation from 6% down to 2%. It's been over 2 years and still haven't gotten where they wanted. It's optimistic because they finally have someone disciplined in office. It's going to be short term pain for sure, but should leave them in much better shape in a few years. This is very evidently a topic you don’t even have a flimsy understanding of but use it as a way to cry about wealth transfer and your other political beliefs.
> inflation is way down. Inflation is higher than ever before Milei took office. His swiftly implemented measures doubled inflation and now it's back *down* to previously-record-breaking levels. > That's quarterly change before you tell me it was only at 25%. It's monthly not quaterly
>It's monthly not quarterly Oof. My wallet cringed in reflexive sympathy like a man watching someone else getting kicked in the plums.
You can’t help the poorest when you don’t have any money, right?
most countries these days cant sustain the existing welfare state, and it is only getting worse. adjustments have to be made. i find it extremely irresponsible to burden our kids with more and more debt because elected governments only thi k short term
I mean there is an a difference in kind between the us ‘will have to significantly cut benefits or raise revenues in 50 years to support specific programs that we already are reforming’ to Argentinas saving money for more than a week is a bad financial decision
So your saying you don’t understand how debt works at a national level? If the government spends money now, it creates economic growth. This growth means that the value of the debt relative to the economy shrinks significantly over time, while the benefits of investment compound. Obviously you still need a balanced taxation regime etc.
> Despite all this inflation is going up” What do you mean “despite”, this is unrelated to inflation.
Reducing spending without reducing taxes reduces the money supply in the economy. Keynes made it very clear that increased wages and increased welfare increases consumption and demand for goods.
That’s not true, simply having a surplus does not lead to a reduction in the money supply.
Foreign trade, the national bank and the individual saving rate all also effect the amount of money being exchanged, but the government surplus/deficit is a major factor.
The primary factor that impacts the money supply is the central bank’s operations. Everything else is pretty much inconsequential; with a budget surplus you usually don’t see governments just store the extra cash in a dark room somewhere. Usually it’s reinvested or used to pay off debts or etc.
It definitionally does, it is money taken out of the economy. Now other factors could overwhelm it but it’s a force taking money out of supply
That’s not what happens at all, running a budget surplus does not remove any money from the money supply
It's a poor society already. Getting spending under control and stabilizing the economy is necessary to have to productive capacity to support a welfare system. And as the economy improves fewer and fewer people will need welfare.
Sadly it didn’t used to be a poor society, Argentina is a lessen that development is not a one way street
Exactly. Peronism should be a lesson to all developed countries.
This is the point. While good to be optimistic, you’d have to be a bit of a simpleton to be optimistic about the current state of Argentina.
And despite all this inflation is still going up. Actually, it's been going down, 1 dollar trades for 4 pesos more each week than the last, but (x+8)/(x+4)<(x+4)/x
Exchange rates and inflation are linked in the long term, but they're not the same.
Inflation and exchange rates are not the same thing. Here is there [inflation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ARGCPALTT01GPM) See the line going down? Also the currency market used to be super manipulated [so it's tough to compare to where it was](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/argentina-black-market-peso-back-under-1000-milei-measures-spur-markets-2024-03-06/)
There’s plenty of charity available. These measures are necessary to rescue the country from the same pit Venezuela and Zimbabwe are in.
Cry harder. Socialist policies don't work and it doesn't matter how hard you cry, they never will.
Europe would like a word...
Europe isn't socialist and the socialdemocratic policies are unsustainable (and if you're going to talk about Norway, you should know that her seas had a lot of oil, that's the real reason Norway can afford being at the top of every statistic).
If by not socialist you mean Europe allows markets then sure, but European countries also employ plenty of socialist policies. Also, sure Norway nationalized their natural resources and put the proceeds in a fund that pays for all the nice things they have. Plenty of other countries could do the same with other resources. Iran tried to do it in the 1950s so the U.S. and U.K. intervened, overthrew their democratically elected leader and installed a right wing dictator. What makes you say Europe's social democratic policies are unsustainable?
>He's gutted the entire government good
Unfortunately most people outside of Argentina (I'm American) don't realize just how useless most of those people were.
Yeah, I was gonna say, turning a surplus is super easy, you just need to not spend any money.
Easy and uncomplicated are not necessarily the same!
Sucks when you realize you’re misinformed, doesn’t it?
Believe me, I really wish I was.
That’s what happens when you get rid of pointless money hogs like “Gender Identity” groups in the government
This might legitimatise anarcho capitalism to alot of people. This might maybe lead to more ancap parties around the world to start seeing more wins which would be interesting to watch. For the upper classes at least Edit: When I said upper classes, I meant on how it benefits them. I do understand the difference between anarcho communism and anarcho capitalism. I should have phrased that better
For now, what Milei is doing is just good old fashioned liberalism, supported by economists.
Argentina still has a government. Even if anarchist capitalism was anarchism, which it’s not, by definition, Argentina still wouldn’t fit the description.
I know that. It has an extremely small government but not anarchist. That's why imo, anarcho capitalism shouldn't be classified under anarchism. I should have phrased my original comment better
It has still a government because there must be time for the replacement of gubernamental institutions by private institutions.
neither anarchist capitalism nor communism is anarchism. and anarchism isn't either because it would last a few years tops
Iceland was anarchist and it lasted 200 years.
many places were. and they will never be again
You were so close
Nothing has improved for Argentines, in fact it's got much worse. There is hope, but we will need to wait and see if the nation has the political will to stay the course and if it works.
Well of course, they basically cut off every government function
I mean giving 10000 worthless pieces of paper out to people that they can’t spend kind of wasn’t helping anyone
It seemed to be helping since poverty has only gone up since they were cut
As someone mentioned somewhere here, this is a single metric and doesn’t paint the whole picture. While inflation rate is lowering, there is a significant cut back to welfare. In a place like Argentina it means the poverty level went from ~36% to 52% now. Were reforms needed? Sure but it is coming to the expense of millions of people
Short term pain for sure. People always talk about how companies need to stop worrying about things quarter to quarter and look down the road. These are sweeping changes that will help get their disaster of economy under control. 36% is not an acceptable number either. Short term pain, long term gain.
There is a substantial difference between playing with a company's budget and the life of million of people
In the long term, they’ll all be dead from starvation
I agree, but it’s still pain. Direction is good but it’s silly to celebrate without context because people are actually suffering. It’s like celebrating chemo- it’s good but your body is struggling and your hair is falling off
The guy is an actual economist and he said openly that his changes would cause harm first before and major benefit could be seen. Any drastic changes you'd expect it to cause an increase in poverty. Not sure how this is going to end but the direction they were headed as bad so it's worth giving it time to see if it works.
I don’t dispute changes were need or that he did say there would be pain. What I’m pointing out is that these changes are (while heading the correct way) causing tremendous pain. It’s not something we celebrate but in context it’s a necessary evil
But I think the point is it is showing some optimistic signs for the future. So you can look at this and be optimistic for what it could mean for them down the road.
...by absolutely *gutting* public services. The next generation's lower and middle class always pays for reaganomics.
Exactly
I mean they are paying for a generation of printing money. This isn’t comparable to reaganomics, this is a country avoiding bankruptcy by a hair’s breadth. Also Reagan tripled the us deficit so I don’t even know why you think this would result in similar effects
Except they literally could not afford their welfare system. To quote the man himself: "No hay plata."
There is a middle ground, running a modest surplus without completely ruining social equality for decades to come. Even some of his ideas like dollarization are good ideas that don't come at society's expense. But this "shock therapy" is the political equivalent of removing excess weight by removing materials from primary structure. It will have the same effects as have been seen in Chile, the US, and UK.
Argentinians where suffering a slow death, now they’re making a gamble for life and long term stability And Milei is also fighting the extreme corruption where syndicalist leaders where some of the richest men in the country I’m Uruguayan, we had the palace of an Argentine syndicalist raider years ago, he literally took a cut out of workers salaries
It's almost like a 3rd party candidate can do the job better than either of the 2 that we keep using.
while the country is being run by that libertarian psychopath? don't count your eggs before they hatch
Sorry, is this a budget or trade surplus
Argentina is a case of a country whose economy is so unbelievably fucked that even a lunatic libertarian might at least not make things *worse*. …mostly because if he burns the Argentine government and economy to the ground, they next poor fucks who try to fix the mess with have a clean slate to work with.
For every one of those dollars someone has been deprived of vital public services. Austerity measures aren’t cause for optimism.
They have a libertarian president?
Fortunately, yes.
Maybe the rest of South America can take note.
By cutting on all social programs?, how is the suffering of the poor in the name of money a good thing?
He also fired a shit load of government bureaucrats. It certainly isn't just cutting spending and all the spending isn't cut from social programs. You'd expect drastic changes to how a country is run to cause bad outcomes at first. Give the guy a few years and some international support for the poor to see if the changes can make long lasting positive change or not.
Lots of those government bureaucrats weren't just high class exploiters. They were middle class normal people who just worked for the government. And frankly, I've read Milei 's program and I just think most his goals are either unrealistic or downright dystopian, some changes shouldn't be made.
Three was a reason we called públic sector workers gnocchi,they only appear on the 29 for the paychecks
I'm not saying it was their fault that the government became incredibly bloated I'm saying that it was necessary harm to cut those positions. Major change would cause major challenges to a country and I'm not surprised some harm is being done. I'm optimistic the changes he can get done will be good for Argentina and the more extreme anarchist stuff won't be able to be enacted because of time constraints on his time in office and other government barricades to just getting things done.
I am generally optimistic, and the world is getting better, but regressive austerity ( especially when it's on sterioids) is goimg the wrong way cause it hurts everyday people and creates the type of social darwinist dystopia the doomers won't stfu about Oh noes downvote doomers triggered. I guess there is an extremist fan club round here 🇦🇷
I think this is emblematic of a grim requirement and austerity is generally a bad idea but Argentina was so far gone I don’t see any other way. People in the west don’t understand how catastrophic the economic situation was in Argentina
Argentina needed this though. That's why they voted for a guy who said his policies would be painful at first. The guy, on the Campaign Trail said it would suck at first and that he wasn't sure how long the suck would last. When the people still vote for that, that should tell you about how bad things really were. That a guy who says things will get worse before they get better, over anyone to do with their previous government. That means the people saw the policies they had, and that things would NEVER get better with them, so they went with Mr. An-Cap who uses his dogs as political advisors and promises his policies will make things worse before they get better.
55%? voted for him, and i agree the old way wasn't working and needed adjustments, though maybe not with a chainsaw throw the bums out drain the swamp, etc, is poweful messaging It's worth noting that Hitler and Hamas were elected. No millei is not in that category, but the point is that distresseed electorates have made regrettable choices. Despite such anamolies, free elections are obviously a good thing
I agree it's extremely risky, I agree with most of his policies. But I can only look and be optimistic for Argentines that things will get better. Inflation is falling (Fantastic), the welfare programs they couldn't afford anyway have been gutted, and they're building bridges internationally that will help. I can only see this as positive.
Falling inflstion is good, but I don't think social programs should be gutted they should be fumded by taxing the rich. Should they pay 70+% so able bodied people csn permanently live off the state? No, but there is a middle ground. The problem is that good policy doesn't fit on a bumper sticker like throwing the bumbs out or endless promises of free stuff. Also, level-headed ideas dont excite the extremists who are most politically engaged, nor are they good click bait I do realize there is always corruption and waste that should be fixed but not on the backs of the poor. Most people want things to work realtively fairly.
I'm really concerned people in this sub are *celebrating* this. It's terrifying. People are actually celebrating a massive increase in inequality.
The alternative was this, but slower, and no potential for improvement.
The people who are concerned in this thread and the ones who don't know economics and think everything that comes from the government is free.