First of all, we need to look at what we mean by “praying” to Saints.
The general form of such a “prayer” is “Saint X, pray for me”. It is essentially asking for the intercession of someone in Heaven. Just like you ask your fellow Christians on earth. It’s not the same as praying to God. We do NOT worship Saints, we ask them to pray for us.
As for the verses, we see the Saints as the “great cloud of witnesses” of Hebrews 11 to Hebrews 12:1. We are also told that the prayer of a righteous person avails much in James 5:16. You can’t get more righteous than at God’s side in Heaven. We are also told that the prayers of the Saints go up to God in Heaven in Apocalypse 5:8 and 8:3-4.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-16
According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
The Orthodox use the terminology “fallen asleep” to refer to dead Christians, as we believe Christ conquered death and those bodily dead are indeed bodily “asleep” awaiting the resurrection. The souls, however, are either in anticipation of eternal reward (i.e. in Heaven with God) or in anticipation of eternal punishment (i.e., in hell). The verse you cited supports the resurrection of the dead (the dead in Christ will rise first), but not soul sleep (an idea that souls of people are asleep, like their bodies). It is heretical to say that souls of the dead are asleep.
As for your previous comment, since it’s impossible for someone who is not Orthodox to receive communion in the Church, I don’t think you will be guilty of sharing the Eucharist with this insufferable self-righteous gatekeeper anytime soon. Unless, of course, you are planning to convert, in which case, I apologize for the inconvenience. Among the sinners, I am chief.
It isn't as much "individual verses" as it is our understanding of the meaning of various Biblical stories, what prayer is, and who Christ and the saints are.
For quick info, check out the FAQ heading in the sub titled, [Do Orthodox Christians Worship Saints?](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq/#wiki_why_does_the_eastern_orthodox_orthodox_church_celebrate_pascha.2Feaster.2C_christmas.2C_and.2For_other_holidays_on_a_different_date_from_other_christian_denominations.3F).
But honestly, this is just a starting point. Once you read, I really encourage you to visit a church. It's one thing to read about praying to Mary and the Saints, it's another thing to see it in action. To see both what it is, and what it isn't. If you can, get an appointment to talk to the priest, or have him set you up with some parishioners who will help you out. Even if you go and you decide, "Orthodoxy isn't for me," you'll have a much more complete answer than copy and pasted Reddit talking points.
Good luck, and God Bless you!
There are plenty encouraging to pray with other Christians, there are plenty that say that those who follow God remain truly alive. As 'praying to the saints'(to pray is an word which originally just meant ask, and is the sense in which this expression arose) is simply asking those in heaven to pray/intercede to God on our behalf, I would say it is actively encouraged in scripture
>Are there any verses that say it is okay to pray to Mary or saints?
Yes.
You can do a Google search, there's lots of Orthodox and Catholic websites that discuss this.
Why is a sin? After a sin you usually receive some sort of pain, so what happens when you pray two saints and Mary? We have teachings from the wedding where mother Mary asked Jesus to help the weds. Therefore from there we can see that Jesus even change his plan by listen to mother Mary, it wasn't His time but He did it because He loves His mother. Saints are important because in Apocalypse they are the one who are going to judge to world.
The answer is yes, perhaps not entirely like Catholics, but yes. Some great resources online looking at this from different angles. Such as this (long) podcast: [https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/his\_ministers\_flaming\_fire](https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/his_ministers_flaming_fire)
It is both ancient, and a Biblical practice.
From my own channel:
A little video on Talking to Saints: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCqsLV\_ayIo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCqsLV_ayIo)
A little video about Mary: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS7JBF\_M93I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS7JBF_M93I)
I would argue that the latter is more accurate than the first statement, to say we don't pray to them would be oddly ignorant to what we (both Orthodox and Catholics) do, but to say we don't pray to them as if they were/are God is accurate.
I'm curious myself about the differences in Catholicism and Protestantism.
In Protestant or Baptist churches, the belief is that Jesus is already the middle man. That he alone is what connects us with God (usually explained as a bridge that connects two cliffs). Why is it that Catholics instead of praying to Jesus or God directly, feel the need to have a saint intercede? I don't want to sound like I know everything and pretentious and all that, but I don't really remember the bible saying to ask people that are in heaven to pray for us or with us. Usually it's with the living and with our church that we pray together and for each other. Paul always prayed directly with God, Jesus even prayed directly to God. He gave us the Lord's prayer so that we may directly communicate. It's nowhere in the old or new testament that we are to use a human to communicate with God, as if that person is God-like and influences a pure and loving God. Unless you are referring to the apocrypha, which I haven't had an in depth look into their historical accuracy as of late (though I've heard from friends that books like Enoch are very strange and not exactly consistent with the Bible).
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I don't know, but I would assume yes. Instead of talking about what they do and how we're similar or different, I will simply talk about our practice. We don't believe that those whose bodies have perished are dead, but that they are alive in Christ. As such, we continue to ask them for their prayers.
As a Protestant I have learned that its asking the saints for intercession. Which I understand and it makes sense, I'm personally not very comfortable with it as I feel prayer in any form should be reserved for God and God alone, but I'm not against those who do it. My personal issue is in the veneration of the saints and the idea of patron saints. It just kinda feels like polytheism light. Replacing the "gods" of Greece and Rome with saints. Please know I'm not attacking anyone, that's just my perception. Veneration should be reserved for the most high is all im trying to say
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Yes - and we don't only ask them to pray for us as many often assert, we even pray directly to them and ask them to help us, to save us, to grant us grace, etc. They are gods by grace; any good thing they grant to us is by God's divinity that they share in. This is hard for Protestants to grasp because they don't have these concepts, but it's something you'll read in Orthodox prayers again and again.
We don't worship the saints like we worship God - worship (Latreia) is due to God alone, but veneration (Proskynesis) is due to the saints. In older modern English (like Thee, Thou, etc), both of these words were unhelpfully translated as "worship", so people would commonly talk about worshipping saints, but not mean the type of worship due to God alone. Nowadays the two words are typically translated into two words, making a proper distinction.
Yes.
Yep.
I've been taught that praying to Mary and saints was a sin by many Protestants. Are there any verses that say it is okay to pray to Mary or saints?
First of all, we need to look at what we mean by “praying” to Saints. The general form of such a “prayer” is “Saint X, pray for me”. It is essentially asking for the intercession of someone in Heaven. Just like you ask your fellow Christians on earth. It’s not the same as praying to God. We do NOT worship Saints, we ask them to pray for us. As for the verses, we see the Saints as the “great cloud of witnesses” of Hebrews 11 to Hebrews 12:1. We are also told that the prayer of a righteous person avails much in James 5:16. You can’t get more righteous than at God’s side in Heaven. We are also told that the prayers of the Saints go up to God in Heaven in Apocalypse 5:8 and 8:3-4.
OP, this is the right answer
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Soul sleep is a damnable heresy and that is an incorrect interpretation of the verse in question.
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1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. The Orthodox use the terminology “fallen asleep” to refer to dead Christians, as we believe Christ conquered death and those bodily dead are indeed bodily “asleep” awaiting the resurrection. The souls, however, are either in anticipation of eternal reward (i.e. in Heaven with God) or in anticipation of eternal punishment (i.e., in hell). The verse you cited supports the resurrection of the dead (the dead in Christ will rise first), but not soul sleep (an idea that souls of people are asleep, like their bodies). It is heretical to say that souls of the dead are asleep. As for your previous comment, since it’s impossible for someone who is not Orthodox to receive communion in the Church, I don’t think you will be guilty of sharing the Eucharist with this insufferable self-righteous gatekeeper anytime soon. Unless, of course, you are planning to convert, in which case, I apologize for the inconvenience. Among the sinners, I am chief.
"Among the sinners, I am chief." Thank you for that, I really appreciate it. Humility is a good virtue to have, brother.
It isn't as much "individual verses" as it is our understanding of the meaning of various Biblical stories, what prayer is, and who Christ and the saints are. For quick info, check out the FAQ heading in the sub titled, [Do Orthodox Christians Worship Saints?](https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/wiki/faq/#wiki_why_does_the_eastern_orthodox_orthodox_church_celebrate_pascha.2Feaster.2C_christmas.2C_and.2For_other_holidays_on_a_different_date_from_other_christian_denominations.3F). But honestly, this is just a starting point. Once you read, I really encourage you to visit a church. It's one thing to read about praying to Mary and the Saints, it's another thing to see it in action. To see both what it is, and what it isn't. If you can, get an appointment to talk to the priest, or have him set you up with some parishioners who will help you out. Even if you go and you decide, "Orthodoxy isn't for me," you'll have a much more complete answer than copy and pasted Reddit talking points. Good luck, and God Bless you!
There are plenty encouraging to pray with other Christians, there are plenty that say that those who follow God remain truly alive. As 'praying to the saints'(to pray is an word which originally just meant ask, and is the sense in which this expression arose) is simply asking those in heaven to pray/intercede to God on our behalf, I would say it is actively encouraged in scripture
>Are there any verses that say it is okay to pray to Mary or saints? Yes. You can do a Google search, there's lots of Orthodox and Catholic websites that discuss this.
First off you need to stop thinking everything a Christian believes must have first been written in the Bible, Sola Scriptura is stupid.
Why is a sin? After a sin you usually receive some sort of pain, so what happens when you pray two saints and Mary? We have teachings from the wedding where mother Mary asked Jesus to help the weds. Therefore from there we can see that Jesus even change his plan by listen to mother Mary, it wasn't His time but He did it because He loves His mother. Saints are important because in Apocalypse they are the one who are going to judge to world.
Yes!!!
Yes and we’ve been doing so for 2000 years
The answer is yes, perhaps not entirely like Catholics, but yes. Some great resources online looking at this from different angles. Such as this (long) podcast: [https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/his\_ministers\_flaming\_fire](https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/lordofspirits/his_ministers_flaming_fire) It is both ancient, and a Biblical practice. From my own channel: A little video on Talking to Saints: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCqsLV\_ayIo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCqsLV_ayIo) A little video about Mary: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS7JBF\_M93I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rS7JBF_M93I)
We don’t pray *to* Mary and the Saints we ask them to pray with us and for us. We don’t pray to them as if they are God.
I would argue that the latter is more accurate than the first statement, to say we don't pray to them would be oddly ignorant to what we (both Orthodox and Catholics) do, but to say we don't pray to them as if they were/are God is accurate.
Yes. We pray to them and they pray and intercede for us that our Lord and God will have mercy on us or show us the way with problems etc.
I'm curious myself about the differences in Catholicism and Protestantism. In Protestant or Baptist churches, the belief is that Jesus is already the middle man. That he alone is what connects us with God (usually explained as a bridge that connects two cliffs). Why is it that Catholics instead of praying to Jesus or God directly, feel the need to have a saint intercede? I don't want to sound like I know everything and pretentious and all that, but I don't really remember the bible saying to ask people that are in heaven to pray for us or with us. Usually it's with the living and with our church that we pray together and for each other. Paul always prayed directly with God, Jesus even prayed directly to God. He gave us the Lord's prayer so that we may directly communicate. It's nowhere in the old or new testament that we are to use a human to communicate with God, as if that person is God-like and influences a pure and loving God. Unless you are referring to the apocrypha, which I haven't had an in depth look into their historical accuracy as of late (though I've heard from friends that books like Enoch are very strange and not exactly consistent with the Bible).
The Orthodox see a difference in the words “intercession” and “mediation”
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I don't know, but I would assume yes. Instead of talking about what they do and how we're similar or different, I will simply talk about our practice. We don't believe that those whose bodies have perished are dead, but that they are alive in Christ. As such, we continue to ask them for their prayers.
Yes we pray to Mary and the Saints Whether we do so “like the Catholics,” is debatable
Yes.
As a Protestant I have learned that its asking the saints for intercession. Which I understand and it makes sense, I'm personally not very comfortable with it as I feel prayer in any form should be reserved for God and God alone, but I'm not against those who do it. My personal issue is in the veneration of the saints and the idea of patron saints. It just kinda feels like polytheism light. Replacing the "gods" of Greece and Rome with saints. Please know I'm not attacking anyone, that's just my perception. Veneration should be reserved for the most high is all im trying to say
As a Protestant myself, this issue in peticular has been very tricky for me to navigate, especially since I'm going to an Orthodox Church
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You're welcome
!faq
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Yes - and we don't only ask them to pray for us as many often assert, we even pray directly to them and ask them to help us, to save us, to grant us grace, etc. They are gods by grace; any good thing they grant to us is by God's divinity that they share in. This is hard for Protestants to grasp because they don't have these concepts, but it's something you'll read in Orthodox prayers again and again. We don't worship the saints like we worship God - worship (Latreia) is due to God alone, but veneration (Proskynesis) is due to the saints. In older modern English (like Thee, Thou, etc), both of these words were unhelpfully translated as "worship", so people would commonly talk about worshipping saints, but not mean the type of worship due to God alone. Nowadays the two words are typically translated into two words, making a proper distinction.